African Converts

[rav]

In Africa:

In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity.

I found these numbers online, originally posted on "Al-Jazeera". What do you all make of them, these are very large numbers indeed.

http://www.aljazeera.net/Portal/aspx/FNF.aspx
(Arabic)

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articl...erahAfrica.php

Discuss...


(Warning: before any Muslim begins slandering Christian Missionaries, I would sugest they look up how many Muslims use food, and other resources to gain converts in Africa as well...)

[snakelegs]

any numbers for how many christians become muslims?

[amirah_87]

I found these numbers online, originally posted on "Al-Jazeera".

You gotta link to that!? :)

[rav]

You gotta link to that!? :)

Will edit in a sec.

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[Abu Zakariya]

I would sugest they look up how many Muslims use food, and other resources to gain converts in Africa as well

Where might one find that information?

[Jayda]

hola rav,

gracias for posting this but please do not... obviously it will upset muslims and i am afraid it will make people angry or say bad things about my religion... what is the point of discussing such things?

Dios te bendiga

[IzakHalevas]

hola rav,

gracias for posting this but please do not... obviously it will upset muslims and i am afraid it will make people angry or say bad things about my religion... what is the point of discussing such things?

Dios te bendiga

Notice the disclaimer saying how Muslims should look in the mirror at their "dawah" and missionary activity in Africa, which is very existant, before they slander Christian missionaries. I believe he wrote that to defend you from such attacks.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol, which Muslim is going around to vulnerable ppl and trying to push Islam?

[IzakHalevas]

Well, I did watch a documentary of a Muslim asking if people were interested in Islam and invited them to discuss it at a very nice dinner with lots of food. The poeple obviously accepted and were convinced because they really did not know much in general. Christian missionaries are the same, and to tell you the truth, since Islam is more pure monotheistic, I guess I should be rooting for you guys.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol, how is that missionizing? How else would u invite someone to learn about Islam? Would u not want people to at least understand ur faith, instead of connecting it with terrorism? The difference is, we let people choose for themselves. We dont say ur only salvation to heaven is through Jesus(pbuh) and get them while they r vulnerable.

[IzakHalevas]

Lol, how is that missionizing? How else would u invite someone to learn about Islam? Would u not want people to at least understand ur faith, instead of connecting it with terrorism? The difference is, we let people choose for themselves. We dont say ur only salvation to heaven is through Jesus(pbuh) and get them while they r vulnerable.

Well in reality Christian missionaries tell people about salvation ect, and do you not think Muslim missionaries do not mention "hell fire" that is so common in the verse of the Quran?

Judaism says you do not have to be Jewish to go to heaven, but if you want to be Jewish you have to follow more laws, who on earth would convert to that, especially when they turn you down sometimes! Oh wait, I did... lol.. :exhausted

[Goku]

This has been posted before, and its quite old too.

As far as I could find, Al-Jazeera was the only source for this information, not very credible. Its the same Al-Jazeera who said most converts to Islam leave Islam within a year, and yet we have converts to Islam who stay Muslims for years, most for their life. You try getting a convert to Islam on this forum to leave Islam...

Its propoganda, i dont know what Al Jazeera's motivations were, but i havent seen it elsewhere, if you find other sources, let me know.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yea i heard about that...neways not the thread for it :X
lol there r no Muslim missionaries...and no we dont start off by saying accept Islam or ull go to hell....lol. well at least not the sane and truthful ones :D

[dougmusr]

Lol, how is that missionizing? How else would u invite someone to learn about Islam? Would u not want people to at least understand ur faith, instead of connecting it with terrorism? The difference is, we let people choose for themselves. We dont say ur only salvation to heaven is through Jesus(pbuh) and get them while they r vulnerable.

There is no such thing as a Christian convert that didn't choose for themselves. A forced confession of Christ is not a conversion.

[IzakHalevas]

This has been posted before, and its quite old too.

As far as I could find, Al-Jazeera was the only source for this information, not very credible. Its the same Al-Jazeera who said most converts to Islam leave Islam within a year, and yet we have converts to Islam who stay Muslims for years, most for their life. You try getting a convert to Islam on this forum to leave Islam...

Its propoganda, i dont know what Al Jazeera's motivations were, but i havent seen it elsewhere, if you find other sources, let me know.

It wasn't Al-Jazeera, it looked like an interview on Al-Jazeera (not just some random thing by a reporter), and the person who said it is one who wants to build schools to educate Muslims before building Mosques. Do you not agree that is a smart idea?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

lol i never said that dude, im talking about missionaries, not Christians like urselves. Im sure u'd agree, a true Christian would be a scholar and invite others to learn about Christianity, no? Would u say christian missionaries are true christians? cuz some go to poor places and get em while they r weak. Muslims do not do that.

[IzakHalevas]

lol i never said that dude, im talking about missionaries, not Christians like urselves. Im sure u'd a gree, a true Christian would be a scholar and invite others to learn about Christianity, no? Would u say christian missionaries are true christians? cuz some go to poor places and get em while they r weak.

Do you think a Muslim missionary has never done the same thing? I'm just curious, it sounds like an interesting debate, but you should both cool off...

Like the blue I put on "cool" lol... :p

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Btw Dawah isnt just through words. The most important kind of Dawah is through the actions and character of a proper Muslim. Thats real Dawah. The way every Muslim should be, good and righteous character.
The only kind of "missionary" work a Muslim would do is to have people understand Islam.

[Malaikah]

build schools to educate Muslims before building Mosques. Do you not agree that is a smart idea?

I don't. The mosque is the centre of the Islamic community and can be used for Islamic education. Why kind of schools did he mean? Strictly secular or secular and religious?

[Jayda]

hola Tayyaba,

i was a missionary. missionary work is something Christians must do... we are supposed to minister to the poor, sick and weak and are supposed to spread the gospel to all nations... i do not understand what is wrong with this...

Dios te bendiga

[Goku]

It wasn't Al-Jazeera, it looked like an interview on Al-Jazeera (not just some random thing by a reporter), and the person who said it is one who wants to build schools to educate Muslims before building Mosques. Do you not agree that is a smart idea?

Thats what i meant, an interview with scholars. We dont know how they arrived at that figure and which organisation contucted the research. It could be that the scholars wanted to raise awareness. Its not been reported in the media or verified, anyone can pull numbers up.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I never said it was wrong, i said there r some who take advantage. I dunno im starting to feel like im speaking an alien language :X cuz my words get taken out of context....

[IzakHalevas]

I don't. The mosque is the centre of the Islamic community and can be used for Islamic education. Why kind of schools did he mean? Strictly secular or secular and religious?

As in the importance in his words of educating the body thats praying (a school does that) so he will stay a Muslim instead of building a Mosque.

I thought it was a smart theory, if his wish is to stop the rapid exit of Muslims from their religion taking place in Africa.

I never said it was wrong, i said there r some who take advantage. I dunno im starting to feel like im speaking an alien language :X cuz my words get taken out of context....

lol, I wish I could speak alien languages. :p

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

You can recieve education in a mosque too. its not different from a school. The difference wit a school is it can be mix, secular or religious.

[Fishman]

:sl:
Have you noticed that most of the Muslims who become Christians are from poorly-educated third-world countries, whilst most of the Christians who become Muslim come from highly educated western backgrounds?

I don't think this missionary work is denting Islam much, since there is an extremely high birth rate in sub-saharan Africa, which would at least ofset it. And many people in Africa who become Christian change back soon anyway. One of my friends has Gambian relatives, and says that in Gambia (where loads of people are Muslim) many people become Christian as children, to get the benefit of the good education that is given to Christians by missionaries. Then when they leave school the convert straight back to Islam.
:w:

[IzakHalevas]

Have you noticed that most of the Muslims who become Christians are from poorly-educated third-world countries, whilst most of the Christians who become Muslim come from highly educated western backgrounds?

No. I haven't noticed because your making a huge generalization. If you look back in history that is not the case at all.

[Fishman]

No. I haven't noticed because your making a huge generalization. If you look back in history that is not the case at all.

:sl:
I meant in modern times! :rollseyes
:w:

[IzakHalevas]

:sl:
I meant in modern times! :rollseyes
:w:

Alright, but I would just like to point to you that this was not always the case, and in reality there is no scientific study showing numbers of converts for both sides. The matter of fact is that majoirty Muslim countries where Christians wish to preach are "third world poorly educated" while Christian majority countries where Muslims preach are "western countries"

[starfortress]

1)Dark poverty (al-faqr al-aswad)

This is when poverty completely overwhelms a person to the extent that his mind is always occupied in trying to earn a living. This kills one’s intellectual potential and capacity, and the one involved in it disintegrates as a green plant would fade away when it is starved of water. This is the poverty regarding which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Poverty may sometimes lead to disbelief”. This is the type of poverty from which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) sought the refuge and protection of Allah Most High.

2) White poverty (al-faqr al-abyadh)

This is a situation where an individual is no doubt poor, but it is not to an extreme level. He is able to get through the daily economic responsibilities on a limited scale. One is content with what Allah has allocated for one; hence this poverty does not affect one’s intellectual potential, although others are generally far better well-off than one. This type of poverty is actually a blessing for a student of sacred knowledge, especially in the early days of learning, for one is saved from the worldly temptations that wealth can bring about.
Source

May Allah(S.W.T) protect us from the Dark poverty

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

In Africa, Muslims cant even have Islamic weddings. Do u know that? It goes both ways.

[AHMED_GUREY]

In Africa, Muslims cant even have Islamic weddings. Do u know that? It goes both ways.

Tayyaba sis Africa aint a country:) many countries there have Islamic weddings around the clock

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

African goverment doesnt recognize Islamic weddings there..i read it myself :X
unless what i read is cruddy info.

[AHMED_GUREY]

i never heard of this sis but you could be confusing it with the ban by African governments on Gay marriages but i could be wrong Allah calam

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

nah thats not it. I just recently read about it. but ur right, Allahu Alam :)

[AHMED_GUREY]

i will look it up sis:)

back to topic

Islam making in-roads in Zambia

19 July 2006 - Frank Jomo
Despite the declaration by the former president of Zambia Fredrick Chiluba that the country was a Christian state, Muslims in Zambia in this southern African country defied all odds in trying to make their religion thrive just as in other countries in this part of Africa. The country has seen a rapid development in the construction of mosques both in Moslem dominated areas as well as in areas chiefly dominated by Christians.


A recent report by a Christian organization, Frontline Fellowship, which spearheads the growth of Christianity in Africa, indicates that Islam is growing at a fast rate in this impoverished continent. Frontline Fellowship says one of the concerns in Africa in as far as growth of Christianity is concerned is the spread of Islam into southern Africa and Zambia in particular. It says Islam is growing twice as fast as Christianity in Africa. Much of this growth Frontline Fellowship says is due to the large amounts of money from the oil-rich Arab countries that are being funnelled into African missions.

Muslims are building primary and secondary schools in Zambia in an effort to convert the next generation of Zambians. Zambia now sits right at the edge of this Islamic advance into southern Africa, Frontline Fellowship says in its report. It adds, Muslim mosques and madrassas have been built all over, and there has been a concerted attempt to convert Zambians to Islam. Funded by oil money from Middle Eastern governments, Islamic Propagation Societies are offering "free education" to impoverished rural populations. Many Christian families have sent their children to these Muslim schools in the hope that an Islamic education is better than none. Others have said that they would no sooner send their child to an Islamic school than sell them into Islamic slavery.

Construction of mosques measured against Islamic growth

Responding to a questionnaire sent by this reporter, a Roman Catholic cleric in Zambia, the Reverend Benjamin* who belongs to a Christian missionary congregation confirmed that Zambia has seen scores of mosques being built in the country. But he was quick to say this alone can not be a genuine yard stick to measure the growth of the Islamic faith in the country. He said mosques have been built in different parts of the country but especially in Eastern and Lusaka provinces. He says the construction of mosques follows the pattern of already dispersed existing Muslim communities of the Yao tribe, chiefly, and cannot be termed as a deliberate venture into non-Muslim territories - with the exception of Lundazi and Petauke where the construction of mosques, spearheaded by the Indian Muslim communities, has led to the foundation of new Muslim communities.

Although the tendency has slowed down, it is surely continuing, sustained by material resources provided by both the local Asian community and external donors not identified by the local beneficiaries. There is a more steady, progressive visibility of the Muslim community among Yao adherents than there is net growth in terms of new converts, said Rev. Benjamin in an e-mail response. He confirmed that there were deliberate programs such as paying school fees for students and opening of orphanages that could be considered gimmicks to convert people to Islam. Such gimmicks have at times been denounced by Christians who used the same gimmicks themselves to garner support for their faith. Rev. Benjamin says that for an ever-growing number of Zambians Islam has become a real religious alternative to both Christianity and traditional religion .

The lead taken by Muslim associations in organizing the Muslim community locally has to be evaluated against the background of Islamic networks outside the country such as the Ahmadiyya Muslim Mission (AMM), the African Muslim Agency (AMA), in Iran (through a network of Islamic university graduates, particularly from Razavi University) and Islamic universities in Arab and Asian countries that give more global discourse to local Islam, he said. Rev. Benjamin adds that Muslim networks outside the country have been able to exert influence on the development of Islam in Zambia through their close collaboration with local associations and the provision of necessary spiritual and material resources.

Islam in Zambia has not developed in total isolation from external influence. Its local development has been largely marked by contact with Muslims from outside the country. Such contacts reveal not only the great potential of local Muslim associations to respond to a global Islamic discourse but also the impact of the trans-national associations on the local Islamic discourse.

Muslim population in Zambia

There is a general consensus that Muslims represent only one percent of Zambia's 10 million people. However, the real figure according to Rev. Benjamin should be pegged at three percent. He says, although initially an insignificant minority group, within the past thirty years the Muslim community has undoubtedly become a non-negligible component of the Zambian society.

Through a more organized structural visibility such as mosques, schools, local associations and an ever-increasing number of indigenous converts, Islam has come to represent a significant change in the religious landscape of the country. It now constitutes a real alternative to tradition religion and indeed to the long established Christian churches, he says. That Islam has become an important component of the religious reality in Zambia is no longer questionable. Despite the National census of 2000 that puts Muslim population in Zambia at 41, 932 out of a total population of 9.4 million inhabitants, figures obtained from Muslim leaders peg it at 300, 000.

Influence of African immigrants on Zambia's gateway to Islam

Islam's gateway into Zambia has also been influenced by some African immigrants -especially those from the East and West African countries of Somalia, Tanzania, Congo, Senegal, Mali, Ghana and Nigeria. Most of these stay in the country as illegal immigrants, according to Rev. Benjamin. Illegal or not, they do not come with their spouses and end up marrying Zambians, converting some along the way.

The typical way for women to embrace Islam has been through marriage with Muslim spouses. Some western African Muslims married local women. Although it is not an absolute pre-requisite of Islam for non-Muslim women to embrace Islam upon marriage, the majority of indigenous women married to Muslim spouses end up becoming Muslims, either by indirect coercion or for the sake of family unity. Associations such as the Lusaka Muslim Women Trust have helped women to come out in the public and present themselves in a way that has attracted other women to embrace Islam, says Rev. Benjamin.

On youths he says different reasons have motivated some without any Islamic background to embrace Islam. Firstly, he says, it has been a common occurrence in the past three decades for young people to break away from their traditional religious affiliations in favour of new ones. Embracing Islam is just one example of that. He says though scholarships to study abroad, mainly in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan etc offered to whoever declare themselves Muslims, hundreds of young men entered into the fold of Islam in the 1980s.

In addition, Muslim clerics have made sure Islamic literature is available for people to read and learn about the faith. This has also greatly contributed to the spread of the Islamic faith. The pattern experienced in Zambia is the same in Malawi, giving credence to the belief that the Islamic faith is indeed making strides in southern African states.

Source

[KAding]

:sl:
Have you noticed that most of the Muslims who become Christians are from poorly-educated third-world countries, whilst most of the Christians who become Muslim come from highly educated western backgrounds?

I think thats mostly because Islam was introduced in the more 'educated' West through economic and political immigration, i.e. Muslims refugees who fled the harsh conditions in their home countries. Christianity on the other hand came to Africa development aid and (at an earlier time) imperialism.

On the original article. There might be 6 million a year that leave Islam, but there probably are millions that convert to Islam as well. I would guess (and thats all it is, a guess) that in the end the religious shifts are pretty limited.

[dougmusr]

The difference is, we let people choose for themselves. We dont say ur only salvation to heaven is through Jesus(pbuh) and get them while they r vulnerable.

A recent report by a Christian organization, Frontline Fellowship, which spearheads the growth of Christianity in Africa, indicates that Islam is growing at a fast rate in this impoverished continent. Frontline Fellowship says one of the concerns in Africa in as far as growth of Christianity is concerned is the spread of Islam into southern Africa and Zambia in particular. It says Islam is growing twice as fast as Christianity in Africa. Much of this growth Frontline Fellowship says is due to the large amounts of money from the oil-rich Arab countries that are being funnelled into African missions.

Muslims are building primary and secondary schools in Zambia in an effort to convert the next generation of Zambians. Zambia now sits right at the edge of this Islamic advance into southern Africa, Frontline Fellowship says in its report. It adds, Muslim mosques and madrassas have been built all over, and there has been a concerted attempt to convert Zambians to Islam. Funded by oil money from Middle Eastern governments, Islamic Propagation Societies are offering "free education" to impoverished rural populations. Many Christian families have sent their children to these Muslim schools in the hope that an Islamic education is better than none. Others have said that they would no sooner send their child to an Islamic school than sell them into Islamic slavery.

So whether this is humanitarian or deception depends on whether it is the Bible or the Quran that is coupled with the assistance.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol yea like im gunna use this as credible source?

A recent report by a Christian organization, Frontline Fellowship, which spearheads the growth of Christianity in Africa

Pure propaganda.

Peace

[north_malaysian]

I think Christianity, while gaining millions of ex-Muslims, they're loosing more of ex-christians leaving Christianity to be atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, non religious, new age cults, islam, hindu, buddhism etc.

[dougmusr]

Lol yea like im gunna use this as credible source?



I stopped reading right there.

Peace

My apologies. AHMED_GUREY, a Muslim, posted this article above #35 as if he found it meaningful in the conversation. Perhaps you should share your concerns with him concerning his selection of sources.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I doesnt matter who posted it and why. The fact for that line i quoted and then they make it look like we wana force. Cuz as Muslims we want to help people, it looks like propaganda. That article is propaganda.

A recent report by a Christian organization, Frontline Fellowship, which spearheads the growth of Christianity in Africa.

That tells me enough. Its almost like a threat to them.

They are building schools there, doesnt mean everyone will convert. Its less pushy than what some people do.

[IzakHalevas]

So whether this is humanitarian or deception depends on whether it is the Bible or the Quran that is coupled with the assistance.

Exactly. Muslims cry and say those darn Christians, decieving, yet they are doing the EXACT same thing.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

People say we dont do enuff good, and if we do, its automatically that we are "trying" to gain converts. Pick one side and stick to it. Dont create double standards. Have u ever thought that there ARE Muslims there, so they r building schools for them? Talk about twisting. Gotta look at both sides.

[IzakHalevas]

People say we dont do enuff good, and if we do, its automatically that we are "trying" to gain converts. Pick one side and stick to it. Dont create double standards. Hvae u ever thought that there ARE Muslims there, so they r building schools for them? Talk about twisting.

I believe the sole purpose of Christian and Islamic missionaries being there is to convert and not to do good, although you most likely believe converting is doing good.

If the African people refused and not one in 10 years converted to either christianity or islam, would either of your religions be putting as much money into Africa? I doubt it.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

How do u know. Are u an official or something? Are u Muslim? Do u accept what we do? No, of course not. So u wouldnt think anything we do would be out of goodness. If a Jew does somethin good, ull say he did it out of goodness, but u wouldnt think he did it to trick people. Your opinions r just assumptions. It isnt reality. There are many good Christians and Muslims and many decieving ones. I know from experience.

[shible]

Though this might be a bit shocking information, this this also happens in India but not in huge numbers.

and on the other side in Us the number of people converted to Islam increases rapidly when compared to other western countries.

And one more info in Indonesia more than Eleven thousand muslims converted to Islam and on the past year Tsunami disaster many people in Indonesia died and most of them were identified as Muslim.

All we can do is protect ourselves with Islam and try to help both our brothers and sisters Both Muslim and Non-muslim to know the facts, thoughts and way of Islam. Allah is the one makes the rest.

Beware Preeching is different from what i told. Waht we will be doing is we will be clearing their doubts and this way they will become more interested in our Religion and who knows under Allah's mercy they could aslo become a very better Muslim

[AHMED_GUREY]

I doesnt matter who posted it and why. The fact for that line i quoted and then they make it look like we wana force. Cuz as Muslims we want to help people, it looks like propaganda. That article is propaganda.

i googled it and found it interesting :D no? almost everything on the net is propaganda so it's difficult to find any unbiased sources regarding this issue

That tells me enough. Its almost like a threat to them.

no sister they mean they are on the forefront of spreading their Christian faith in Africa and yes with 1 billion people Africa is a good place to attract new followers for any religion

They are building schools there.

this is very good Africa needs this!

[abdmez]

How do u know. Are u an official or something? Are u Muslim? Do u accept what we do? No, of course not. So u wouldnt think anything we do would be out of goodness. If a Jew does somethin good, ull say he did it out of goodness, but u wouldnt think he did it to trick people. Your opinions r just assumptions. It isnt reality. There are many good Christians and Muslims and many decieving ones. I know from experience.

Nice post sis!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

thats why i said its like a threat to them. cuz they r doing the same thing. So if a Muslim tries to do smethin good and somone accepts on their own behalf, its forcively trying to gain. who DOESNT want followers, be honest. But we cannot force. EVER. theres a difference. In islamic schools there are usually non muslims, and they choose for themselves. some accept some dont. plain and simple. If someone wants to build islamic schools, it seems to them we want to get ppl to convert and just cuz its not "secular." maybe u havent realized but we rnt allowed to have mix schools or "secular" ones.

[AHMED_GUREY]

i agree!

[dougmusr]

thats why i said its like a threat to them. cuz they r doing the same thing. So if a Muslim tries to do smethin good and somone accepts on their own behalf, its forcively trying to gain. who DOESNT want followers, be honest. But we cannot force. EVER. theres a difference. In islamic schools there are usually non muslims, and they choose for themselves. some accept some dont. plain and simple. If someone wants to build islamic schools, it seems to them we want to get ppl to convert and just cuz its not "secular." maybe u havent realized but we rnt allowed to have mix schools or "secular" ones.

The same of course would be true for Christian mission schools. The Gospel would be presented and there would be Bible in the curriculum but there is no such thing as a forced convert, as you pointed out elsewhere with Pharoah, conversions aren't accepted unless they're sincere.

Don't forget that teaching someone to read does not guarantee that they will only read what the school desires them to read. They could even use their new knowledge to read the Quran if they desired.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

So whos stopping them? Its their decision to choose :)

[abdmez]

as you pointed out elsewhere with Pharoah, conversions aren't accepted unless they're sincere.

that statement isn't completly compatiable with christian history though, do you agree?

[dougmusr]

that statement isn't completly compatiable with christian history though, do you agree?

I don't think it is. The Bible says in Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". People who are forced to confess may pass the first test, but not the second one.

[north_malaysian]

more than Eleven thousand muslims converted to Islam

Muslims converted to Islam?:rollseyes

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^hehe. give em a break :X lol

[shible]

:sl:

Though this might be a bit shocking information, this this also happens in India but not in huge numbers.

and on the other side in Us the number of people converted to Islam increases rapidly when compared to other western countries.

And one more info in Indonesia more than Eleven thousand muslims converted to Christianity and on the past year Tsunami disaster many people in Indonesia died and most of them were identified as Muslim.

All we can do is protect ourselves with Islam and try to help both our brothers and sisters Both Muslim and Non-muslim to know the facts, thoughts and way of Islam. Allah is the one makes the rest.

Beware Preeching is different from what i told. Waht we will be doing is we will be clearing their doubts and this way they will become more interested in our Religion and who knows under Allah's mercy they could aslo become a very better Muslim

Thanks brother for pointing out my mistake. i have rectified it this quote

here is the correct statement:

One more info in Indonesia more than Eleven thousand muslims converted to Christianity.


Note:-

Read my post fully ( my previous post) before Raising a Question about this statement

:sl:

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

In Africa:

In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity.

I found these numbers online, originally posted on "Al-Jazeera". What do you all make of them, these are very large numbers indeed.

http://www.aljazeera.net/Portal/aspx/FNF.aspx
(Arabic)

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articl...erahAfrica.php

Discuss...


(Warning: before any Muslim begins slandering Christian Missionaries, I would sugest they look up how many Muslims use food, and other resources to gain converts in Africa as well...)

&&&


It's possible for ordinary Muslims to left Islam as they don't know much about their own religion & are brainwashed by the negative propaganda by the media. Media relate religion with crime when the alleged criminal is a Muslim but don't condemn Torah/Bible when criminal is a Jew/Chrisitian.


......But , the question is : how many prominent Muslim Scholars/ Imams left Islam ? I can give u a list of prominent Rabbis & Priests including famous personalities who accepted Islam.

2 beautiful sites to know how learned Jews & Chrsitians are embracing Islam :statisfie


http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Jewish-Converts-to-Islam


http://thetruereligion.org/modules/x...php?category=1


... Judaism and Christianity are light houses leading to Islam, whether you were a Messianic Jew, a Jew for Jesus, or an Orthodox Jew, any Jew can be for Allah.


Because Everyone is born a Muslim (in Submission to Allah) Everyday Jews are Returning (Reverting) to their Religion of Birth and the Religion of Abraham, Moses, and all the past Prophets, Islam.

Books by Jews for Allah

Road to Mecca

The Message of the Quran

Le Chemin de La Mecque

Why I Embrace Islam

Maryam Jameelah

Best Price $3.00
or Buy New $3.00

The Hadj ..Michael Wolfe & more



Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam


----------- And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians.

That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.

When they listen to that which hath been revealed unto the messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say: Our Lord, we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses [Qur’an 5:82-83]




Abdullah al-Faruq Formerly Kenneth L. Jenkins, minister and elder of the Pentecostal Church


Dr. Jerald F. Dirks Former minister (deacon) of the United Methodist Church. He holds a Master's degree in Divinity from Harvard University and a Doctorate in Psychology from the University of Denver.


Author of The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam (ISBN 1-59008-002-5 - Amana Publications, 2001). He has published over 60 articles in the field of clinical psychology, and over 150 articles on Arabian horses

Viacheslav Polosin Former Archpriest of the Russian Orthodox Church admin


Anselm Tormeeda 14th century CE Majorcan priest and scholar. From his book 'The Gift to the Intelligent for Refuting the Arguments of the Christians'


Khadijah "Sue" Watson Former pastor, missionary, professor. Master's degree in Divinity

Ibrahim Khalil Philobus Former Egyptian Coptic priest and missionary

Martin John Mwaipopo Former Lutheran Archbishop


Raphael Narbaez, Jr. Former Jehovah's Witness Minister

George Anthony Former Catholic priest

Dr. Gary Miller Former missionary


http://www.jews-for-allah.org/books-by-JewsforAllah
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Jewish-Converts-to-Islam

[rav]

It's possible for ordinary Muslims to left Islam as they don't know much about their own religion & are brainwashed by the negative propaganda by the media.

Yes, in the deserts of Africa the negative media coverage of Muslims must be the cause of millions of conversions away from your religion. I mean since in Africa the media bias is so bad against Muslims, one can only imagine how many British Muslims are converting away because the even more bias coverage!

Or would you like to rethink your logic? :rollseyes

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

ill put another word in place of the media...but thats for ME to know and you all to figure out :D

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam'

Yes, in the deserts of Africa the negative media coverage of Muslims must be the cause of millions of conversions away from your religion. I mean since in Africa the media bias is so bad against Muslims, one can only imagine how many British Muslims are converting away because the even more bias coverage!

Or would you like to rethink your logic? :rollseyes

------ give me a list of prominent Muslim scholars/Imams who left Islam , then may be i will rethink my logic. :D

Those who left Islam were not scholars ...either poor/needy persons or ignorant about religion. How many Muslim & non- Muslims know that Christian & Jewish holy books tell them to destroy a whole city with babies , catttes etc because parent are guilty of idol worshippers ?

Nobody ever heard/read anything about these in media or from any person. They are totally ignorant about these but they hear/ read about the criticism about Quran for war verses. Also , normally if become Christians , it's easy to get UK , US visa , get a good job in NGO's etc.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

rav: (Warning: before any Muslim begins slandering Christian Missionaries, I would sugest they look up how many Muslims use food, and other resources to gain converts in Africa as well...)

----huh , Muslims are really that conscious to spread Islam among non-Muslims ?? I doubt ......i read in many revert stories how our new Muslim bro & sisters struggle when not a single Islamic org helped them financially .


Let me share u some real stories how many learned Jews & Christians embraced Islam in Africa , USA , UK & elsewhere.

Shalom

Ethnically Jewish,

+ Salam

Spiritually Muslim, =

Peace

Jews for Allah



Intrested in having Yousef al Khattab speak at your Masjid of Islamic event?


Yousef al Khattab is available to tell his Journey to Islam at your Masjid or Islamic Event inshallah.


Having spoken at Beir Zeit University, Melbourne University, Harakat Islamia in numerous areas of Palestine aswell as countless other Masajids, Yousef has appeard on UK channel 4, Al Jazera, Islamonline countless Arabic tv channels aswell as Reuters , Associated Press and many more.
Yousef and family currently reside in Morocco and are ready, willing, and able to travel to your events inshallah. for more information you can contact Yousef



Yousef al-Khattab P.B. 3032 Sidi Talha
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Telephone # 212 669 65467
Email; yousefalkhattab@gmail.com




And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow

[Qur’an 2:25]


Who says there is never any good news ?




Islam Attracting Many Survivors of Rwanda Genocide


The Washington Post Company

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Sep22.html

Jihad is Taught as 'Struggle to Heal'



It wasn't the kind of jihad that has been in the news since Sept. 11, 2001. There were no references to Osama bin Laden, the World Trade Center or suicide bombers. Instead there was only talk of April 6, 1994, the first day of the state-sponsored genocide in which ethnic Hutu extremists killed 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu moderates.



"We have our own jihad, and that is our war against ignorance between Hutu and Tutsi. It is our struggle to heal," said Saleh Habimana, the head mufti of Rwanda. "Our jihad is to start respecting each other and living as Rwandans and as Muslims."

Since the genocide, Rwandans have converted to Islam in huge numbers. Muslims now make up 14 percent of the 8.2 million people here in Africa's most Catholic nation, twice as many as before the killings began.


&

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/x...php?category=4

Islam Attracts Converts by the Thousands, Drawn Before and After Attacks


By Jodi Wilgoren, The New York Times, October 22


A Wave of Conversion to Islam in the US following September 11

.. I read Koran verses translated into English... These were moments that I will never forget, because the entire church burst into tears upon hearing the passages of the words of Allah!!"
"Emotion swept over us. One said to me: 'I do not understand the Arabic language, but there is no doubt that the things you said are the words of Allah.'



Heather Ramaha, a Navy petty officer, is among those in Hawai'i who have converted to Islam since Sept. 11.

http://drupalmalaysia.org/Islam/Reve...religion_Truth

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower

[rav]

And????? Your point is what....?

A Jew converted to Islam, wow. I must have seen this guys picture everywhere. It is about the only Orthodox Jew to ever convert to Islam!!!

On the other hand... there are 5 Muslim converts to Judaism at a Shul I use to go to. But this isn't a competition is it?

[SilentObserver]

Yea i heard about that...neways not the thread for it :X
lol there r no Muslim missionaries...and no we dont start off by saying accept Islam or ull go to hell....lol. well at least not the sane and truthful ones :D

A question came to me as I read this thread. Tayyaba, you kept emphasizing the point that christian missionaries use the vulnerable state of people as a time to spread their faith.
The question is, is this any worse than forcing people into a faith?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yes, although its indirect. The worse thing about it is that ur decieving people. I dont mean as in the faith itself is, but how people go about it. Im not saying all of em do that cuz i cant generalize. We had some come by about a year back. Me and my bro were at class, little bro was in school. Mom went to do some groceries. My dad was home sleeping cuz he had to go to work soon. They rang the doorbell and my dad answered. He spoke with them for about a few minutes and then he fainted and fell face flat to the floor. Next thing he knew, the guy was waking up him asking what happened. He was bleedin all over his face and had some dirt in his mouth. He went upstairs sitting in shock tilll my mom came home. But I thought this was funny afterwards cuz the same people who used to come never came back again LOL. i guess they got scared ;D

[dougmusr]

Yes, although its indirect. The worse thing about it is that ur decieving people. I dont mean as in the faith itself is, but how people go about it.

Did the visitors introduce themselves as vacuum cleaner sales people, and then he got sucked into listening to the Gospel? What did they do that was deceptive?

[SilentObserver]

Yes, although its indirect.

So it is better to be forced. Ok. Thanks.

[sudais1]

It's Because those Christians torture them, and force, I know ask my Uncle who is still Muslim from there tortures, he has marks everywhere and you'll cry if you here his story, The took my village my storm, i hate them which is a very strong word

[dougmusr]

It's Because those Christians torture them, and force, I know ask my Uncle who is still Muslim from there tortures, he has marks everywhere and you'll cry if you here his story, The took my village my storm, i hate them which is a very strong word

Did you get an opportunity to question the perpitrators on their faith?

[SilentObserver]

It's Because those Christians torture them, and force, I know ask my Uncle who is still Muslim from there tortures, he has marks everywhere and you'll cry if you here his story, The took my village my storm, i hate them which is a very strong word

What are you talking about? You are saying that christians torture muslims to convert?
What a rediculous claim if you are really saying this. I apologize if you are not.

[rav]

It's Because those Christians torture them, and force, I know ask my Uncle who is still Muslim from there tortures, he has marks everywhere and you'll cry if you here his story, The took my village my storm, i hate them which is a very strong word

What? So your generalizing an entire religion, and claiming Christians tortured your uncle to convert? :exhausted

Shall we name it Christiaphobia?

[AvarAllahNoor]

There is no such thing as a Christian convert that didn't choose for themselves. A forced confession of Christ is not a conversion.

Yes, but that is not to say it does not occur. Same with the muslims. It seems more to do with numbers than quality.

[SilentObserver]

Yes, but that is not to say it does not occur. Same with the muslims. It seems more to do with numbers than quality.

There does seem to be a focus on quantity.

There are three situations in religion that bother me.

The first is using an unfortunate situation to push someone into a faith.

The second is outright forcing someone into a faith.

The third is forcing someone to stay in a faith.

All three of these help quantity, but do nothing for quality.

[Malaikah]

What are you talking about? You are saying that christians torture muslims to convert?
What a rediculous claim if you are really saying this. I apologize if you are not.

What? So your generalizing an entire religion, and claiming Christians tortured your uncle to convert? :exhausted

Shall we name it Christiaphobia?

How cruel of you two! The guy is telling you that would cry if you heard his uncles story, and you accuse him of making a ridiculous claim or being a chrsitiaphobic?

You haven't even heard the story, give him a chance to explain himself, and he did not say ALL Christians, he said those Christians.

Note the emphasis:

It's Because those Christians torture them, and force, I know ask my Uncle who is still Muslim from there tortures, he has marks everywhere and you'll cry if you here his story, The took my village my storm, i hate them which is a very strong word

Honestly that was so unasked for.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

So it is better to be forced. Ok. Thanks.

dude i never said that. and dont say u didnt put words in my mouth cuz u just did. I said they're both just as bad. dont take ur ignorance for knowledge, cuz u obviously didnt understand me.


honestly, some of u dont know how to read!! I said there both just as bad. im not justifying either of them. <----- now make sure u can read this. let me know when u do, so i can give u a cookie! :exhausted

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What? So your generalizing an entire religion, and claiming Christians tortured your uncle to convert? :exhausted

Shall we name it Christiaphobia?

he didnt generalize. dont quickly build up thoughts as ur reading. read carefully first.

[glo]

I must admit that I haven't read the whole thread all the way through, but I distinctly dislike any discussions about 'my religion is bigger than yours!' or 'we have more converts than you!'.
What's the point??? Does it mean anything???

What matters is how we conduct ourselves, how we live our lives and live out our faiths.
What good are 100.000 followers of religion X, if they do not truly follow God?
What good are 100.000 converts to any religion, if it is not the 'right' religion (in God's eyes)?

Inevitably these kind of threads turn into defensive tat-for-tat arguments ... as seems to be the case with this thread.

Perhaps we can all make a real point of demonstrating to each other just how peaceful and forgiving each of our religions are? Here, and now, and in this thread?

Thank you.
And Peace :)

[SilentObserver]

What are you talking about? You are saying that christians torture muslims to convert?
What a rediculous claim if you are really saying this. I apologize if you are not.

How cruel of you two! The guy is telling you that would cry if you heard his uncles story, and you accuse him of making a ridiculous claim or being a chrsitiaphobic?

You haven't even heard the story, give him a chance to explain himself, and he did not say ALL Christians, he said those Christians.

Thank you for continuing to stalk me, and scrutinize all my words, with your very helpful and non-judgmental constructive criticisms. I look forward to a 25 post long debate and to defending my use of the words "and" and "the". In another thread later, I will use the words "if" and "when" so we can further debate, and I can again defend the use of these words for yet another 25 posts.
Now, as for this particular crticism.

It's Because those Christians torture them, and force

This thread is about africans converting to christianity. Clearly this member was saying that the christians are actually torturing people to force christianity on them. I have heard many accusations against them, but this is the wildest. It is possible that his uncle was attacked, and I feel terrible for him for that if true. But the attack would most certainly not have been missionaries motivated to force religion upon him. That is rediculous.

He goes on to say that he hates christians. Now, I have a problem with that. Bad things happen to people, and it's sad. But we cannot allow this to be an excuse to spread more hateful words about any group of people.

I realize that it is possible that while I am sure of what was being said, I could have misunderstood. And that is why I said,

I apologize if you are not.

There is nothing wrong with what either Rav or myself have said. The circumstance that his uncle had to endure is no reason to direct hatred at an entire group of people. Think of the 911 terrorist attacks as an example. There were many americans that were truly traumatized by the event. Yet most muslims will (rightfully) say, "it is no reason to direct hatred at all muslims, please do not speak hateful words about muslims in general".

Honestly that was so unasked for.

Much like your constant attention.

[Malaikah]

SilentObserver

Do not flatter yourself into thinking that you are really so important that I have to 'stalk' you. The simply fact that my post was addressed to rav as well is proof enough.

[SilentObserver]

dude i never said that. and dont say u didnt put words in my mouth cuz u just did. I said they're both just as bad. dont take ur ignorance for knowledge, cuz u obviously didnt understand me.


honestly, some of u dont know how to read!! I said there both just as bad. im not justifying either of them. <----- now make sure u can read this. let me know when u do, so i can give u a cookie! :exhausted

The question is, is this any worse than forcing people into a faith?

Yes, although its indirect.

So it is better to be forced. Ok. Thanks.

It can't get any more clear than that. You did say that.

and dont say u didnt put words in my mouth cuz u just did.

Sorry, but you said what you said. It was very clear. I am not sure what the big deal is here by the way. So what if you did? It's an opinion, no big deal.

I said they're both just as bad.

No, actually you never did say that. Maybe you were thinking it perhaps.

dont take ur ignorance for knowledge

No need to behave rudely. If I have misunderstood your meaning just correct it with another post. Rudeness only makes people want to be rude in return.

cuz u obviously didnt understand me

So it would seem.

honestly, some of u dont know how to read!! I said there both just as bad

If you could point out where you said this perhaps I'll give it another go at reading again.

now make sure u can read this. let me know when u do, so i can give u a cookie!

You seem to be very agitated by this conversation. Perhaps we should end the discussion before you say anything else that is regrettable.

[Muslim Woman]

And????? Your point is what....?

A Jew converted to Islam, wow. I must have seen this guys picture everywhere. It is about the only Orthodox Jew to ever convert to Islam!!!

On the other hand... there are 5 Muslim converts to Judaism at a Shul I use to go to. But this isn't a competition is it?

Salaam;

my point is : Imams/ Muslim scholars who know about their religion don't leave Islam . It's the ordinary Muslims who don't know about Islam left religion .

One revert Christian ( ex Muslim ) told me he accepted Chrsitianity because on the Last Day , no Christians will get any punishment because of life sacrifice of Jesus (p). See my point ? They don't have proper religious knowledge & misinformed by the missionaries. They gave him wrong info that no Christians will get any punishment.

I can give u more names of learned Rabbis , Jewish authors , prominent scholars , Chrsitians Priests & others . I m waiting to see a list of Prominent Muslim scholars & Imams who left Islam......get my point ?

[rav]

my point is : Imams/ Muslim scholars who know about their religion don't leave Islam . It's the ordinary Muslims who don't know about Islam left religion .

Incorrect. That is an assumption, which is false.

One revert Christian ( ex Muslim ) told me he accepted Chrsitianity because on the Last Day , no Christians will get any punishment because of life sacrifice of Jesus (p). See my point ? They don't have proper religious knowledge & misinformed by the missionaries. They gave him wrong info that no Christians will get any punishment.

Right, and will any Muslims get punishment on yor "last day". It is the same thing. Just scare people to get more followers. Judaism is true because we say another person who is righteous can go to heaven.

[Malaikah]

Right, and will any Muslims get punishment on yor "last day". It is the same thing.

Of course they will. Not only that but many Muslims will spend time in hell as well.

[rav]

Of course they will. Not only that but many Muslims will spend time in hell as well.

I am sure that a convert to Islam is under the impression he will go to heaven if he follows Islam.

[Malaikah]

I am sure that a convert to Islam is under the impression he will go to heaven if he follows Islam.

Obviously!!!!!! Why would someone who fears God, doesn't sin or avoids them as much as possible go to hell?!:rollseyes

[Muhammad]

Greetings and :sl: ,


Simply calling oneself a Muslim is not a guarantee of entering into Paradise. Allaah (swt) says in the Qur'an,

None feels secure from Allah's plan except the people who are the losers. [7:99]

Al-Hasan Al-Basri said, "The believer performs the acts of worship, all the while feeling fear, in fright and anxiety. The Fajir (wicked sinner, or disbeliever) commits the acts of disobedience while feeling safe (from Allah's torment)!''

I think this thread has gone on for long enough:

Inevitably these kind of threads turn into defensive tat-for-tat arguments ... as seems to be the case with this thread.

:threadclo