Hate Crimes on Muslims

[Sami Zaatari]

it is funny how so many westerners comming on these forums acting all righteous and so on yet ignoring their own crimes they do against Muslims in their own country. for instance the high number of hate crimes which continually occur against Muslims in the west. why dont the non-Muslim westerners on this forum speak against the thugs who beat muslim women up on busses and streets in Uk and Usa, i think most of you westerners dont really mind hate crime and attacks on muslims in the west, because non of you hardly bring it up and u act like it doesnt happen but if something happens to a westerner by a Muslim you go all up in arms why? here are some links which document present and past hate crimes against muslims by westerners the nation of 'love' and 'freedom':

http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/sep/18uk.htm
http://www.boston.com/news/world/eur...e_crimes_seen/
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/0...ism050803.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_hate.htm
http://muslim-responses.com/A_Mosque...sque_Shooting_

there is much more but that shud do for now. i also know a Muslimah who got beta up by a group of thugs in london a few years back, she had her veil on and they just beat her up swearing and and calling her names dirty muslim etc etc etc stuff like that, she was pregnant at the time and as a result of the attack she lost her baby thanks to these western thugs. this isnt a unique case neither, it happens alot in the west, but these lovable westerners and christians hadrly speak on it and i suspect most of them support it.

[Keltoi]

I think if you go back and read some of the past posts about hate crimes against Muslims you would have a better idea of how "Westerners" view any hate crime, regardless of the victim.

[England]

it is funny how so many westerners comming on these forums acting all righteous and so on yet ignoring their own crimes they do against Muslims in their own country. for instance the high number of hate crimes which continually occur against Muslims in the west. why dont the non-Muslim westerners on this forum speak against the thugs who beat muslim women up on busses and streets in Uk and Usa, like manchsterfolk for instance, you always talking about palestine, why dont you concentrate on your own british thugs who continue to cause hate crimes and hate speech on Muslims? or maybe its because u think its ok for hate crimes and Muslims to get attacked? i think most of you westerners dont really mind hate crime and attacks on muslims in the west, because non of you hardly bring it up and u act like it doesnt happen but if something happens to a westerner by a Muslim you go all up in arms why? here are some links which document present and past hate crimes against muslims by westerners the nation of 'love' and 'freedom':

http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/sep/18uk.htm
http://www.boston.com/news/world/eur...e_crimes_seen/
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/0...ism050803.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_hate.htm
http://muslim-responses.com/A_Mosque...sque_Shooting_

there is much more but that shud do for now. i also know a Muslimah who got beta up by a group of thugs in london a few years back, she had her veil on and they just beat her up swearing and and calling her names dirty muslim etc etc etc stuff like that, she was pregnant at the time and as a result of the attack she lost her baby thanks to these western thugs. this isnt a unique case neither, it happens alot in the west, but these lovable westerners and christians hadrly speak on it and i suspect most of them support it.

What about the hate crimes on westerners? :rollseyes Why don't muslims come out speak up about these attacks. Remember the 15 yr old in Scotland killed by muslims? I didn't hear many speak up against them....




I thought I'd join you :)

[Goku]

Salam, normal people view this with disgust, only a handful of people would be happy with this, bro Sami i think u know who i am referring to.

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[Keltoi]

Salam, normal people view this with disgust, only a handful of people would be happy with this, bro Sami i think u know who i am referring to.

Who are you referring to?

[Goku]

Who are you referring to?

A terribly demonic anti-Islam forum me and Sami used to discuss Islam on. A lot of the people there rejoiced at deaths and suffering of Muslims, eg the Indonesian Tsunami. I posted those hate crime against Muslims links on that forum recently and the reaction was expected, justification using tuo quoque, ie so and so Muslim in the Mid East did that therefore the Western Muslim victims deserved it, even the 19 year old Muslim girl who got beaten by 2 men with baseball bats. Its sickening. But I know that those types are in the tiny minority, most of them are right wing extremists who frequently curse the left and liberals. Hate crimes against anyone regardless of religion or ethnic origin should not be tolerated in the least.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
In my experience, those who have a 'them and us' attitude often interpret certain events somewhat differently to those who don't.

There have been hate crimes on muslims since the time of the Prophet [saw] and there will always be as it stems from ignorance. Other faiths and groups of people have also experienced hate crimes, throughout the past. I'm not saying it is good, of course not. However, as long as ignorance prevails through society, race hate and crime will always exist. Unfortunately, due to human nature, I sincerely doubt ignorance will ever be eradicated from this Earth.

I hope to live to see the day where there is no more injustice in this world. But the more I think about it, the more I realise that Paradise is that place.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:
In my experience, those who have a 'them and us' attitude often interpret certain events soemwhat differently to those who don't.

i think i have that attitude, i think that we US muslims gotta try our best under islamic laws and "THEM" as kaafirs will try change our ways because they wouldnt like to live under it...

[Woodrow]

Hate crimes are Hate Crimes no matter who they are committed against. They are not the teaching of any ideology that I know of. All people who commit such crimes are members of the same brotherhood no matter what they call them selves.

A person who commits a hate crime, is just that a person who hates and their religion is the same religion, no matter what religion they claim to support. Hate, does not support any religion, it only tears down innocent people.

[Akil]

i think i have that attitude, i think that we US muslims gotta try our best under islamic laws and "THEM" as kaafirs will try change our ways because they wouldnt like to live under it...

I got a better idea, focus on your own deen, observe Sharia without the threat of punishment and leave democracy to do as it will :P

Us and them is never productive

In that vain of thought, the sad fact is that in America our government listens to money. Anyone not wanting to be ignored has too pool their money to form political action committees (PAC’s) and possess lobbyist and sympathetic politicians. We have one Muslim politician; we have six million Muslims in America. The American Muslim community will have to find out how far the wealth and voting power of six million Muslims can take them.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I got a better idea, focus on your own deen, observe Sharia without the threat of punishment and leave democracy to do as it will :P

a perfect system through out the world, due to mans desire it cannot spread. Your saying accept mans desire and stay still and do what you will in the space you have but think of my space as a little box slowly getting squeezed, this is how it is, without improvement/development we cant stay the way we are. Our surroundings affect us, all i want to do is purify the surroundings so its safer for me to be around, thats why i cant ever accept the western way...

[Akil]

a perfect system through out the world, due to mans desire it cannot spread.

Sharia is like communism. Have you ever read the communist manifesto by Karl Marx? Marxist communism would be utopia on earth, but what passes for Communism in Russia, China, Korea, Vietnam etc. has little or nothing to do with Marxism. It seems like it’s the same on the outside, but it’s just a façade.

Has any Muslim country in this world fully implemented sharia law with no amount of bidah?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Sharia is like communism. Have you ever read the communist manifesto by Karl Marx? Marxist communism would be utopia on earth, but what passes for Communism in Russia, China, Korea, Vietnam etc. has little or nothing to do with Marxism. It seems like it’s the same on the outside, but it’s just a façade.

Has any Muslim country in this world fully implemented sharia law with no amount of bidah?

:)

i can safely say only the prophet and just rulers of the past have done that (the four caliphs/successors of the prophet) there are said to be other just caliphs after aswell such as abdul azeez. Well innovation is sometimes required such as the times when the quran was compiled etc but evil unnecessary innovation should be avoided.

Im not sure if such a world can ever be established but a world of justice.. i wish i could see it

they say a man wouldnt dare mistreat a dog due to the just ruler (umar ibn al khattab) sleeping half way across the world... such was the justice..

[Akil]

I would not fear a true Islamic government. No one really should. I would pay my tax which I hear is actualy less than zakat, and move on with life.

[Khattab]

What about the hate crimes on westerners? :rollseyes Why don't muslims come out speak up about these attacks. Remember the 15 yr old in Scotland killed by muslims? I didn't hear many speak up against them....




I thought I'd join you :)

this was absolutely nothing to do with muslims I knew of the guys who did this and they are as far away from islam as you can imagne, it was over gang feuds drugs etc so please get your facts right, Mohammed Sarwar (muslim mp) was the one who tracked them down many in the community spoke out against it and even today you will see flowers and flags still outside where he was taken

[Count DeSheep]

it happens alot in the west, but these lovable westerners and christians hadrly speak on it and i suspect most of them support it.

I hardly speak on an independent Kurdistan, U.S. involvement in Iraq, bad McDonald's food, and a bunch of other things. I hardly speak on Russian horrors in Chechnya, or of Adolf Hitler's death camps. And yet, I do not support any of those things.

Now that I think of it, though, there are a LOT of Muslims here that haven't spoken on hate crimes against Muslims. By your logic, doesn't that mean that THEY support the crimes too?

[Akil]

It’s not productive to compare hate crimes. Ours are worse than yours etc etc etc thats retarded.

It’s time for people of conscience and people of morals from all races, religions, from all backgrounds and walks of life to come together in rejection of those who would commit acts such as these.

[north_malaysian]

How about hate crimes on Muslims by other Muslims.... why nobody discuss it too...

[wilberhum]

I wonder why there are hate crimes against Muslims.

Does anyone here understand why Islamophobia is on the rise?

Radicals vs. moderates: British Muslims at crossroads
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...iew/index.html

DUBLIN, Ireland (CNN) -- At a recent debate over the battle for Islamic ideals in England, a British-born Muslim stood before the crowd and said Prophet Mohammed's message to nonbelievers is: "I come to slaughter all of you."
"We are the Muslims," said Omar Brooks, an extremist also known as Abu Izzadeen. "We drink the blood of the enemy, and we can face them anywhere. That is Islam and that is jihad."

Fury at Australia cleric comments http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6273629.stm

Sheikh Feiz Mohammed, head of the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Sydney, urged children to become martyrs for Islam and mocked Jewish people as pigs.

[Khattab]

I wonder why there are hate crimes against Muslims.

Does anyone here understand why Islamophobia is on the rise?

Radicals vs. moderates: British Muslims at crossroads
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...iew/index.html



Fury at Australia cleric comments http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6273629.stm

Wilberhum, is it wrong for a a young child to wish to become a soldier for the US and defend his country?

[wilberhum]

Wilberhum, is it wrong for a a young child to wish to become a soldier for the US and defend his country?

If your definition of “Defending” is killing others because they don’t agree with you, then yes it is wrong.

If your definition of “Defending” is calling others pigs, then yes it is wrong.

If your definition of “Defending” is killing people because they don’t respect what you respect, then yes it is wrong.

[Joan of Arc]

Wilberhum, is it wrong for a a young child to wish to become a soldier for the US and defend his country?

Yes it is that's why you can not join til you are 18. You don't see US recruiters at elementary schools.

[- Qatada -]

If your definition of “Defending” is killing others because they don’t agree with you, then yes it is wrong.

War is fought because both sides disagree.

If your definition of “Defending” is calling others pigs, then yes it is wrong.

I'm sure that both sides call each other by even more offensive names, because if they feel too bad to attack the enemy verbally, then why are they prepared to do it physically?

If your definition of “Defending” is killing people because they don’t respect what you respect, then yes it is wrong.

That's the only reason war occurs, because they don't agree with the opposition.

Yes it is that's why you can not join til you are 18. You don't see US recruiters at elementary schools.

The brothers question was whether the child has a right to wish to fight for his people.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Yes it is that's why you can not join til you are 18. You don't see US recruiters at elementary schools.

what if you thought the kid fighting and dying for this opportunity would enter eternal and everlasting happiness and the kid thought this aswell and both accept and the parents accept?


Its amazing, the people think as long as the man and woman agree the fornication is understandable and acceptable because both sides are happy about it yet when this is the case with war the people say the kids are too young! So? the kids happy about it right? Who are you to interfere with it?

[Joan of Arc]

what if you thought the kid fighting and dying for this opportunity would enter eternal and everlasting happiness and the kid thought this aswell and both accept and the parents accept?


Its amazing, the people think as long as the man and woman agree the fornication is understandable and acceptable because both sides are happy about it yet when this is the case with war the people say the kids are too young! So? the kids happy about it right? Who are you to interfere with it?

Let's say you were 9 and your parents told you if you put this plastic bag over your head you will enter a state of euphoria that only Allah will grant. Will a child be mature enough to seek his own answer or would he just accept what his parents tell him? We have children hanging themselves imitating Saddam and you're trying to tell me they will be able to understand jihad?

[Joan of Arc]

The brothers question was whether the child has a right to wish to fight for his people

The child has that right but it's misguided. Would a child truly fight out of the love of Allah or because an adult says this is what he should do if he loves Allah? Do you get what I'm trying to say?

[- Qatada -]

Let's say you were 9 and your parents told you if you put this plastic bag over your head you will enter a state of euphoria that only Allah will grant. Will a child be mature enough to seek his own answer or would he just accept what his parents tell him? We have children hanging themselves imitating Saddam and you're trying to tell me they will be able to understand jihad?

But where does it say in islamic texts that a 9yr old can fight anyway? We know that the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) never gave permission to the young children to fight.



Peace.

[Joan of Arc]

But where does it say in islamic texts that a 9yr old can fight anyway? We know that the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) never gave permission to the young children to fight.



Peace.

Well what do you consider a child? These people are talking about instilling this in children. If you are an adult and want to go off and fight in your perception of jihad that's fine but this is too much for a child.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Let's say you were 9 and your parents told you if you put this plastic bag over your head you will enter a state of euphoria that only Allah will grant. Will a child be mature enough to seek his own answer or would he just accept what his parents tell him? We have children hanging themselves imitating Saddam and you're trying to tell me they will be able to understand jihad?

whoooah i wasnt talking about 9 year olds :uuh: . What about 12+ ?

I got a 12 year old cousin who understands a LOT about islam, i reckon he can make this decision and attain the reward.

Also fighting for the sake of God and commiting suicide just isnt the same thing.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

But where does it say in islamic texts that a 9yr old can fight anyway? We know that the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) never gave permission to the young children to fight.



Peace.

ye bro

who were the youngsters at badr? you know the ones who were hiding from the prophet saws :p but then argued to fight and stuff lol how old were they?

[- Qatada -]

Well what do you consider a child? These people are talking about instilling this in children. If you are an adult and want to go off and fight in your perception of jihad that's fine but this is too much for a child.

When a person is mature, so when a guy has a wet dream or a girl gets her periods. That's when they are adults because this signifies adulthood. Not a number [i.e. 18 etc.]


If these people are telling the children to fight right now while the child is so weak and small, thats not right. If they are telling kids about fighting for their beliefs and for their own rights, then the children have a right to learn that. The same way the children within the west are instilled to believe that all muslims are terrorists.


What is wrong with believing that there is One God, who sends messengers with clear signs [i.e. Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon them all)], so we obey God over the creation and any man-made law. And in the end we will return to God to be judged on all that we did, and be either rewarded for obeying God or be punished for rejecting God?

God has allowed the muslims to fight back those who fight them, why is that so bad? Are muslims supposed to be killed and tortured and not do anything about it? Why is the US fighting and oppressing the muslims even though these innocents never did nothing?


Your a good person Joan, and you know that harming the innocents isn't the right thing to do. So these people have the right to fight back, the same way the US chooses to defend itself.



Peace.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Can you say your understanding at 12 is the same as say 18?

its better for adults to fight. Its better for adults to make the decision, but you should know in islam there are rulings for the parents to marry off their daughters to men at a young age even though the girl doesnt understand. This is accepted, you see its because the parents want whats best for that child. So imagine the child is 14/15 and has learned how to grasp the sword and shoot the arrow, has learned how to manuever his horse, if a father and mother agree that the child will benefit most by fighting in war for the sake of Allaah then why should other people come out and say its barbaric? What gives them that right. Thats what im trying to say... if the child agrees, and is capable and wishes for it and the parents both guardians agree and wish for it, then what is the problem with the people?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Just cause I can wield a sword or ride a horse does no guarantee me Basirah.

whats basirah? :)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Hadrat Ali(ra) was 8 went he(ra) started. And he(ra) was one of the greatest, MashAllah.

[Muezzin]

Hate crimes against anyone and committed by anyone are utterly disgusting. People who commit them are especially deserving of punishment.

I wonder why there are hate crimes against Muslims.

Does anyone here understand why Islamophobia is on the rise?

Radicals vs. moderates: British Muslims at crossroads
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...iew/index.html



Fury at Australia cleric comments http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6273629.stm

So did you forget that little hissy fit of yours in the Homophobia thread about people justifying their hatred and how evil they are for it? Or are you just trying to be hip by making snide remarks against Muslims in an Islamic forum, ignorant of the fact that many of those comments make you sound like the very type of prejudiced person you dislike so much? Of course, you'll probably never reply to this and just run off and make further snarky remarks to sound 'daring'.

[MTAFFI]

if any publishes a hate crime against muslims here or anywhere else, I would condemn it and treat them the same no matter where they come from or what religion they are

just wanted to give my 2 cents!:D

[Muezzin]

if any publishes a hate crime against muslims here or anywhere else, I would condemn it and treat them the same no matter where they come from or what religion they are

just wanted to give my 2 cents!:D

You value and understand justice. :)

Doesn't matter if the victim of such a crime is Muslim, Christian, Jewish, black, white, Asian, Native American or gay - the person who commited the offence is a scumbag.

[Khattab]

If your definition of “Defending” is killing others because they don’t agree with you, then yes it is wrong.

If your definition of “Defending” is calling others pigs, then yes it is wrong.

If your definition of “Defending” is killing people because they don’t respect what you respect, then yes it is wrong.

Please can you quote to me exactly what the talker said in his talk please and where he said to do the following things to which to you are alluding to? And to kill innocents?

The truth is to you dying for the US is honourable where as when anyone mentions "Jihad" it is somethng that disgusts you, double standards.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

The truth is to you dying for the US is honourable where as when anyone mentions "Jihad" it is somethng that disgusts you, double standards.

jazakAllah khair !

[Khattab]

Yes it is that's why you can not join til you are 18. You don't see US recruiters at elementary schools.

Please read what I said "is it wrong for a young child to wish to become a soldier for the US and defend his country?"

I never mentioned anything about kids going to war. And also for you is it wrong for a child to hope to become a soldier "when he is older"? Strange, I think all children should have dreams about what they hope to become.

[wilberhum]

Hate crimes against anyone and committed by anyone are utterly disgusting. People who commit them are especially deserving of punishment.


So did you forget that little hissy fit of yours in the Homophobia thread about people justifying their hatred and how evil they are for it? Or are you just trying to be hip by making snide remarks against Muslims in an Islamic forum, ignorant of the fact that many of those comments make you sound like the very type of prejudiced person you dislike so much? Of course, you'll probably never reply to this and just run off and make further snarky remarks to sound 'daring'.

Sure I remember. And here you are again. Are you defending there brand of hate?

[wilberhum]

Please can you quote to me exactly what the talker said in his talk please and where he said to do the following things to which to you are alluding to? And to kill innocents?

The truth is to you dying for the US is honourable where as when anyone mentions "Jihad" it is somethng that disgusts you, double standards.

The truth is that there is no hounour in dying. There is less than no hounour then you kill yourself for the soul reason of killing inocents.

[Khattab]

The truth is that there is no hounour in dying. There is less than no hounour then you kill yourself for the soul reason of killing inocents.

The soldiers that have died from the US or whatever country they are honoured and looked upto as heros, yet there is a double standard when anyone mentions anybody fighting in the way of Allah (SWT), they are just simply seen as the 'bad guys' 'terrorists' it doesnt matter that there country was invaded in order to spread 'democracy', steal oil and that there families where killed or that they havent raised a finger to harm any innocents (Im not talking about those who target civialians). Of course you will honour your dead but people who have been robbed of there livelihood arent going to just lie down as you would like they will die defending themselves evenhough you may hate it. Its easy to paint yourselves as the good guys and even easier to believe it.

[Skillganon]

The truth is that there is no hounour in dying. There is less than no hounour then you kill yourself for the soul reason of killing inocents.

Join the U.S army. "You are not here to think you are here to Kill" oyeah "die for your country and you will get a medal"

I think we all here are losing the plot. If one is going to nit pick everything, than you can find bad comment in every sphere of british society if you are persistant. Their are some among the tiny monority who hold angry views who probably would not made some of those comments. One and certainly most of the people here do not hold such views except the comments made about western terrorism (foreign Policies).

One actually needs to focus on the one's who are commiting act in large scale invading, occupying, raining bomb's and bullets who oppose them and imposing their will in all name of Democracy and fighting Terrorism regardless of how beutiful this phrases my sound to the ear.

Going back to the Topic, their are non-muslims that are trying their best to condemn this issue of hate crime but do not expect everyone to know about it (unless it get's publicity from big brother) and condemn it.

[Malaikah]

The truth is that there is no hounour in dying.

There is no honour in dying as a martyr for the sake of GOD and being admitted in to paradise as soon as you die while everyone else has to wait for the day of judgement, and also being given one of the best places in paradise?

There is no honour is dying as a good person and when your soul comes out it is blissful and the angels are all excited and happy to see your soul being taken up to the heavens and praising you all the way along?

Wow, I wonder where the honour is then?:phew

:rollseyes

There is less than no hounour then you kill yourself for the soul reason of killing inocents.

There is no honour is ASSUMING that a person was talking about killing innocents when he said NOTHING to that effect, and then pretending it is true. In fact, I would call that slander.

[ManchesterFolk]

like manchsterfolk for instance, you always talking about palestine, why dont you concentrate on your own british thugs

First off I do not condone violence, and I am a minority in England to, by the way. Your personal attack on me was baseless. Palestine is the biggest topic here, so it is naturaul I will speak about it.

How about mentioning the attacks on non-Muslims in Islamic countries since your so judgemental on what you consider to be "uneven" coverage.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

There is no honour in dying as a martyr for the sake of GOD and being admitted in to paradise as soon as you die while everyone else has to wait for the day of judgement, and also being given one of the best places in paradise?

There is no honour is dying as a good person and when your soul comes out it is blissful and the angels are all excited and happy to see your soul being taken up to the heavens and praising you all the way along?

Wow, I wonder where the honour is then?:phew

:rollseyes



There is no honour is ASSUMING that a person was talking about killing innocents when he said NOTHING to that effect, and then pretending it is true. In fact, I would call that slander.

:omg: :thumbs_up.....lol

[SilentObserver]

it is funny how so many westerners comming on these forums acting all righteous and so on yet ignoring their own crimes they do against Muslims in their own country.

I am a westerner, I do no crimes against anyone. In fact, I doubt any westerners on this forum are the type to commit crimes against others.

for instance the high number of hate crimes which continually occur against Muslims in the west. why dont the non-Muslim westerners on this forum speak against the thugs who beat muslim women up on busses and streets in Uk and Usa, .

From thread, 'Racist spits at Muslim on train'

I agree with you that the bahaviour was disgusting, and others should have defended her.

What a terrifying ordeal!!
I cannot begin to imagine how scared I would feel - especially when in charge of several young children! :cry:
Peace

This was just a completely rude act upon an innocent person. Doesn't matter whether the woman is Muslim or Christian, any verbal attack upon a woman minding her own business should be condemned by all.

Agreed.

Race and creed are not relevant. You go ape on some innocent person and you should be condemned by all, no matter who you are and no matter who they are.

There are more, do a thread search before making silly statements about others.

i think most of you westerners dont really mind hate crime and attacks on muslims in the west, because non of you hardly bring it up and u act like it doesnt happen but if something happens to a westerner by a Muslim you go all up in arms why? .

I think you have made a silly bigoted statement, and are have some real issues with prejudiced thinking.

because non of you hardly bring it up and u act like it doesnt happen

When's the last time you spoke up about crimes against non-muslims?

i also know a Muslimah who got beta up by a group of thugs in london a few years back, she had her veil on and they just beat her up swearing and and calling her names dirty muslim etc etc etc stuff like that, she was pregnant at the time and as a result of the attack she lost her baby thanks to these western thugs.

That is terrible, those idiots should be castrated.

this isnt a unique case neither, it happens alot in the west,

Which west? All of the west? Not where I live. Not in most of the countries I've been to either. Are you speaking about Britain? That is not the entire west you know.

but these lovable westerners and christians hadrly speak on it and i suspect most of them support it.

You are a bigot, plain and simple. Your type of thinking is what is wrong in the world today. Racism.

[Muezzin]

Sure I remember. And here you are again. Are you defending there brand of hate?

Of course not. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the logic you're using. If you read my posts you'll see I view hate crimes, against any group of people be they black, white, Jewish, Muslim, gay or whatever, as some of the worst crimes people are capable of. You, however, seem to condone Islamaphobia, justifying one form of discrimination while condemning all others. I ask you to stop this stupidity.

[ManchesterFolk]

Of course not. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the logic you're using. If you read my posts you'll see I view hate crimes, against any group of people be they black, white, Jewish, Muslim, gay or whatever, as some of the worst crimes people are capable of. You, however, seem to condone Islamaphobia, justifying one form of discrimination while condemning all others. I ask you to stop this stupidity.

What is Islamaphobia? Tell me how you define it first.

[Muezzin]

What is Islamaphobia? Tell me how you define it first.

Hatred of Muslims, which, in the context of this thread, leads to violence against innocent Muslims. In the context of this thread, I define 'Islamaphobia' in a similar way to 'Homophobia', as this thread is about hate crimes.

[ManchesterFolk]

Hatred of Muslims, which, in the context of this thread, leads to violence against innocent Muslims. In the context of this thread, I define 'Islamaphobia' in a similar way to 'Homophobia', as this thread is about hate crimes.

You see that is the reason. Most people do not define Islamaphobia or Homophobia that way, at least I do not.

If I am a Homophobe for example then I am not hateful towards Homoseuals, but just don't understand them, and do not wish to interact with them. A Homophobe does not nessesarily hate Gays.

I think someone who is an Islamophob just doesn't understand Islam, because of the negative coverage, which needs to be corrected by Muslims showing how kind they are!

I don't think Islamophobia is pure hatred of Muslims.

A soultion I have in reality is helping connect the cultures to understand eachother, have interfaith dialogue ect.

The problem with this is the lack of interest in the more extreme elements Muslim community to really be open to the secular members of the West. It was the same problem with the Jews. They made up 10% of Poland and refuse to look a non-Jew in the eye or speak to one because they haded secularism so much. It led to hatred between a majority group and minoirty one, but also Polish people were pretty hateful from the begining. I learned about this in religious history courses I took. The Jews made up a huge religious minoirty that followed a way of life like Islam (some aspects even stricter) and After the Holocaust the Jews basicaly were destroyed in Poland. They mostly had there own neigborhoods like in England and would stay there and speak there own language. (In no way did the Jews deserve to be killed because they didn't like secularism)

It is kind of scary seeing how Europe forgets about the last anti-secular minoirty they hunted and destroyed.
I think it would be amazing and I would be so happy if we had more inter-faith dialogue.

[SilentObserver]

By definition, a phobia has more to do with fear than hatred. Here is a definition;

phobia :an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation

Islamophobia really is more about fear of islam, than hatred of islam. Of course often hatred is a result of this fear.

[Akil]

This entire argument sounds like, well its ok for us to hate because they hate. Many people will die before we overcome this mentality, assuming we ever do.

Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ----> Anger ---> Hate ----> Violence ---> Death ---->

[Muezzin]

I don't think Islamophobia is pure hatred of Muslims.

I see what you're saying. However, as has been pointed out, fear or misunderstanding can lead to hatred. Hatred of any group of people, the whole concept of collective guilt, is disgusting.

A soultion I have in reality is helping connect the cultures to understand eachother, have interfaith dialogue ect.

I agree. Common misconceptions can and should be discussed in public dialogues, but this does not give followers of any faith to slander or insult other faiths in the process.

However, this topic is about hate crimes, which I categorically condemn, whoever their victims or perpetrators are. People who beat up Muslims because of what some crazy idiots do in other countries, people who beat up Jews because of Israel's actions in other countries, people who beat up homosexuals solely for being gay - none of the idiots who commit such assaults on innocent people have an excuse and deserve to be punished.

[budda]

The whole root of the problem w/ hate crimes on Muslims is Muslim hate crimes on others. The recent surge in Anti-Muslim thinking is a direct result of horrible crimes committed by evil people in the name of Islam. The only way to stop it is for the Muslim community to rise up in opposition to the extremists that have carried out acts like this. If this does not happen you can expect things to get even worse for the average Muslim. It may be wrong to hate a group of people for the actions of a few but it is the reality of things so you have to learn to work with it.

[Abu Zakariya]

budda

It's our own fault. I understand.

P.S. Even though - as you pointed out - it's our own fault, maybe people should educate themselves about Muslims instead of beating them up? I mean, it doesn't take that long to find fatwas by Muslim scholars and Muftis denouncing terrorism (look here: http://www.efatwa.com/) and condemnations by regular Muslims and Muslim organizations. I mean, it's just a suggestion, but I think this approach might be wiser than the "let's-find-someone-that-looks-Muslim-and-start-punching" one. But hey, it's our own fault so I guess we can only blame ourselves.

[Pygoscelis]

:sl:
In my experience, those who have a 'them and us' attitude often interpret certain events soemwhat differently to those who don't.

Absolutely agree.

[Pygoscelis]

The sheer amount of straw men in this thread are staggering.

Do you people honestly believe what you have written? Not all us westerners are out to gitcha. We don't all hate you. We are not all raised to think all muslims as terrorists. I didn't even know what a muslim was until I was a teen. I didn't know they had any particular connection to terrorism until the 9/11 hoopla.

[Pygoscelis]

A few people do horrible acts in the name of Islam.

A few westerners lash out and declare muslims in general to be terrorists.

The person who started this thread lashes out and declares that the entire west hates muslims and is bigotted against them.

Does anybody notice a pattern?

[Malaikah]

I didn't know they had any particular connection to terrorism until the 9/11 hoopla.

Me too, would you believe. :?:rollseyes

[budda]

Wow you could not have mis-interpreted my post any worse. You think that was an us and them post? I was saying the only reason this garbage is going on is no one is challenging the stereotypes about Muslims the news shows us every single day. If all Americans and Europeans see all day is the news about how another Muslim blew himself up in a cafe and so on then they are going to begin to have ill will towards Muslims. What makes it even worse is that the Muslim community as a whole says nothing in condemnation of these acts so it begins to appear that there is a quiet acceptance of these insane acts. I will never commit one of these acts and I will never allow one to take place but I can only do so much. Without effort on the part of the Muslim community these attacks are just going to become more frequent. If you cared about Islam you would protect its image from those who would pervert it...

[Pygoscelis]

If yer refering to me budda there was no misunderstanding. I wasn't talkin bout you. I originally quoted your post to agree with it and then deleted the quoted part to just post a couple of lines of text instead, which may have activated the email notification thingie that I responded to your post. I wasn't refering to you. I was refering to the OP.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

I was saying the only reason this garbage is going on is no one is challenging the stereotypes about Muslims the news shows us every single day. If all Americans and Europeans see all day is the news about how another Muslim blew himself up in a cafe and so on then they are going to begin to have ill will towards Muslims. What makes it even worse is that the Muslim community as a whole says nothing in condemnation of these acts so it begins to appear that there is a quiet acceptance of these insane acts.

This is not true; an overwhelming number of Muslims have spoken and still speak out against stereotypes and acts of terrorism. This is a theme of many threads on this forum, and your specific claim that nobody has spoken out against it has already been addressed a number of times:

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...terrorism.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/420474-post264.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...terrorism.html

Peace.

[Keltoi]

I think the issue isn't whether Muslims are speaking out, but how loud their voices are. Most media would rather give a loudmouthed bigot an interview rather than a soft-spoken opponent of violence. I do believe Muslims should put as much effort into loudly opposing terrorism as they do loudly opposing cartoons. Not trying to be offensive, but there is an obvious inbalance there.

[netprince]

Wow you could not have mis-interpreted my post any worse. You think that was an us and them post? I was saying the only reason this garbage is going on is no one is challenging the stereotypes about Muslims the news shows us every single day. If all Americans and Europeans see all day is the news about how another Muslim blew himself up in a cafe and so on then they are going to begin to have ill will towards Muslims. What makes it even worse is that the Muslim community as a whole says nothing in condemnation of these acts so it begins to appear that there is a quiet acceptance of these insane acts. I will never commit one of these acts and I will never allow one to take place but I can only do so much. Without effort on the part of the Muslim community these attacks are just going to become more frequent. If you cared about Islam you would protect its image from those who would pervert it...

The reason why racist and islamophobic people attack muslims is not because muslims dont condemn terrorist actions aimed at innocent civilians. Many many many muslims speak up against such actions, however, the people speaking up against such actions are rarely given the airtime. A muslim condemning violence is not sensational news, however, the extremist with his/her extreme views is sensational news and helps propagate the negative stereotypes that the media want propagated.

Muslims are continually trying to do something about it! but like i said, the 'moderates' as they are commonly labelled dont make good news, so who will give them the airtime?

This is not just an issue for the muslims to sort out. The governments and media need to change their islamophobic attitude and policies and prevent the media propagating such hatred. The continuing demonisation of a minority people will only result in one thing. If you want to know what that one thing is then read the history of nazi Germany. The demonisation of a peoples by the state has in the past led to a holocaust and it will happen again if something isnt done soon!

Check this list for condemnations of terrorism if you think no one is speaking up against such things! This is by no means the complete list but a selection posted on an american website.

LINK

[Woodrow]

I think the issue isn't whether Muslims are speaking out, but how loud their voices are. Most media would rather give a loudmouthed bigot an interview rather than a soft-spoken opponent of violence. I do believe Muslims should put as much effort into loudly opposing terrorism as they do loudly opposing cartoons. Not trying to be offensive, but there is an obvious inbalance there.

At any given day there are countless Imams giving fatwah against terrorism. These words are directed to where they are most needed, to the Muslims in the community.

Public protests are just seen as showmanship and a desire to identify with the non-believers by potential terrorists. This is a bit paradoxol as Muslim out cries become more public, the less they are believed by potential terrorists.

I know the non-Muslim world wants to know just what is being done by Muslims to end terrorism. However, those who are opposing terrorism are much more interested in reaching the misguided, not in becoming public celebrities.

Plus there is also the media problem, when we as individual protesters against terrorism strange demonstrations against terrorism, it usualy never makes the status of being news worthy.

One Imam in a remote section of the world calling for suicide bombers will be on all the world media almost instantly. One million Imams world wide speaking against terrorism on a daily basis, doesn't even make the back page of the classified section of the paper.

[netprince]

I think the issue isn't whether Muslims are speaking out, but how loud their voices are. Most media would rather give a loudmouthed bigot an interview rather than a soft-spoken opponent of violence. I do believe Muslims should put as much effort into loudly opposing terrorism as they do loudly opposing cartoons. Not trying to be offensive, but there is an obvious inbalance there.

..........and the non-muslims should be as vocal against the racist and islamophobic actions of the non-muslims?

To be honest i don't see a lot of that going on anywhere, wherever you turn you find someone attacking some aspect of islam to gain a bit of notoriety and media time. The only thing they are achieving by there racist and islamophobic behaviour and attitude is adding further fuel to the fires of hatred. The more it happens the less effective the voices of moderation within the muslim communities become!

[Keltoi]

..........and the non-muslims should be as vocal against the racist and islamophobic actions of the non-muslims?

To be honest i don't see a lot of that going on anywhere, wherever you turn you find someone attacking some aspect of islam to gain a bit of notoriety and media time. The only thing they are achieving by there racist and islamophobic behaviour and attitude is adding further fuel to the fires of hatred. The more it happens the less effective the voices of moderation within the muslim communities become!

I agree with you, the silent majority of moderation should make their voices louder, on both sides.

[Erundur]

The reason why racist and islamophobic people attack muslims is not because muslims dont condemn terrorist actions aimed at innocent civilians. Many many many muslims speak up against such actions, however, the people speaking up against such actions are rarely given the airtime. A muslim condemning violence is not sensational news, however, the extremist with his/her extreme views is sensational news and helps propagate the negative stereotypes that the media want propagated.

Muslims are continually trying to do something about it! but like i said, the 'moderates' as they are commonly labelled dont make good news, so who will give them the airtime?

This is not just an issue for the muslims to sort out. The governments and media need to change their islamophobic attitude and policies and prevent the media propagating such hatred. The continuing demonisation of a minority people will only result in one thing. If you want to know what that one thing is then read the history of nazi Germany. The demonisation of a peoples by the state has in the past led to a holocaust and it will happen again if something isnt done soon!

Check this list for condemnations of terrorism if you think no one is speaking up against such things! This is by no means the complete list but a selection posted on an american website.

LINK

:salamext:

Here are some more links to add with brother Netprince's

http://www.cair-net.org/html/911statements.html

http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?...utreachEfforts

:sl:

[Muezzin]

I agree with you, the silent majority of moderation should make their voices louder, on both sides.

I know what you're saying, but anyone, Muslim or Non-Muslim, who just talks about peace, will generally not get much airtime, no matter how loud their voices are and how correct their arguments are. Crazy violent psychos make better television apparently, and people tend to remember them more.

I'm not saying that the voice of moderation should simply stop talking however.

[Abu Zakariya]

As our brother Woodrow pointed out, the ones that work hard to refute terrorism from an Islamic viewpoint, are our shaykh's and scholars and they don't tend to go out on demonstrations (some of them consider demonstrations to be un-Islamic, but that's another topic). They try to educate the Muslims and spread correct Islamic knowledge.
Also, in Saudi Arabia they have this thing where a scholar will go to the suspected terrorists and show them how Islam disagrees with what they are trying to do, and this might - praise be to Allah 'azza wa jall - prevent future terror attacks. Surely, this is does more good than demonstrations?

[Erundur]

Surely, this is does more good than demonstrations?

:salamext:


We yanks love sensationalism if the scholar doesn't jump up and down and show some passion I'm changing the channel in order to watch ESPN. :okay:

:sl:

[Keltoi]

Behind the scenes work to stop terrorist ideologies is great, and that might be enough for Muslims in general, but I wonder if that is enough to change the growing belief in the "West" that Muslims give lip service to denouncing terrorism and little else. Islamophobia isn't hatred, it is distrust and fear. Muslims, especially those living in the "West", will continue to be looked upon as suspect while bombs continue to go off.

When the British politician mentioned that more should be done in the Muslim community to stop the spread of radicalism, the Muslim community attacked him. If Muslims can't even accept the fact that there is a problem, why should everyone else feel comforted that some clerics are "speaking out against it?" I'm just trying to explain the doubt that exists in the minds of non-Muslims when they hear how such and such cleric spoke out against terrorism...where are the people speaking out against terrorism? If thousands of Muslims can gather to protest some cartoons, surely a few hundred can get together to denounce terrorism.

[Abu Zakariya]

Keltoi

First of all, these aren't "a few clerics". These are muftis and respected scholars. In fact, even the terrorist sympathysers themselves (as few as they might be) usually see these Shaykh's as people of knowledge, who work to spread the true techings of Islam. It's pretty much the issue of terrorism they disagree on. When even the terrorist sympathysers themselves acknowledge the great knowledge of the Shaykh's that denounce terrorism, this tells you something about how influental the fatwa's of these Shaykh's are amongst the mass of Muslims. The low number of militants (in contrast to the number of Muslims) testifies to this.

Second of all, this isn't done "behind the scenes". These fatwa's are out there for all to see. But of course it will seem to be "behind the scenes" since the media doesn't mention this and instead they focus on the few militants. This has been pointed out earlier in this thread by others.

As for protests, well... I don't think that protests will stop the terrorists. What has been shown to stop them is educating them about Islam. The only thing protests might achieve is to change the image of Muslims. However, the condition is that the media reports about this. But since they haven't reported about the fatwa's, the condemnations etc. etc., why would they report about these protests? More than five years after 9/11, people still ask "Why aren't the Muslims doing anything against the radicals", which shows you that the media ignores these kind of things.

It could be asked: Why aren't non-Muslims protesting against Islamophobia? I mean, no one can deny the discrimination of Muslims, the hate crimes, the mosque burnings, the demonization of Muslims etc. going on in Europe. Where are the protests?

By the way, I think that if Muslims were demonstrating etcetera, it would be said that this is only lip service and that actual work needs to be done to prevent terrorism.

[SilentObserver]

The problem is what we actually "see". There have been a number of large scale demonstrations in the last few years over various issues. Muslims in very large numbers taking to the streets in various cities in various countries.

Yet we do not "see" demonstrations condemning terrorism when it happens. We don't see angry muslims taking to the streets condemning the hijacking of islam by terrorists.

[north_malaysian]

We don't see angry muslims taking to the streets condemning the hijacking of islam by terrorists.

Maybe because almost all of those "angry Muslims" dont believe that it's done by Muslims....
:rolleyes:

[Abu Zakariya]

The problem is what we actually "see". There have been a number of large scale demonstrations in the last few years over various issues. Muslims in very large numbers taking to the streets in various cities in various countries.

Yet we do not "see" demonstrations condemning terrorism when it happens. We don't see angry muslims taking to the streets condemning the hijacking of islam by terrorists.

Again, terrorists hijacking Islam isn't going to change by demonstrating. You educate them about Islam.
I think that the difference is that when someone attacks Muslims, we usually respond by demonstrating and protesting against this attack from the outside. But terrorism is something internal, something that isn't going to be solved by protests. We have to do actual work.

Now, having said that... It's not about what non-Muslims actually see. It's about what you choose to see. For instance, are you aware of the demonstration in Morocco against terrorism where 150.000 people protested?