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IbnAbdulHakim
01-19-2007, 11:18 PM
:salamext:

Ahmed deedat thinks the sun rising from the west is the muslims spreadin dawah thru the west and making a propa pious army in the west.

is there any article or anything to refute this? i dont have a lot of knowledge on this but i really thought the sun will literally rise from the west...
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chacha_jalebi
01-19-2007, 11:24 PM
maybe he talkin bout signs of qiyamah, cos the sun is gna rise from the west near the end. and maybe he thinks muslims will be doin dawah in the west + stuff.
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-19-2007, 11:27 PM
naa mishti guy he actually said that its impossible because the world will have to come to a halt and if that happens everything would be flying everywhere so it must be that the west will go all islamic but im thinkin Allaah can do NETHIN!!
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chacha_jalebi
01-19-2007, 11:35 PM
he said the rising of sun from west impossible?
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-19-2007, 11:41 PM
^ ye becoz he goes dat the earth wud hav to rotate opposite direction, for dat to happen the earth wud hav to come to a SCREECHING halt causing mountains and everythin to fly about and oceans to flood everything...
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Noor
01-19-2007, 11:43 PM
^That sounds like Judgement Day to me.
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chacha_jalebi
01-19-2007, 11:53 PM
woh, i duno cos their is are a few hadiths sayin the sun wil rise from west.

like .... Abu Huraira ra, said "The Prophet (saw) said ~ " the hour will not come until the sun rises from the west. when it rises and the people see it, they will all believe. but that wil be the time when no good will it do to a soul to believe"

and this hadiths in bukhari, hadiths 6/73. also theres many hadiths bout sun risin from west, akhii what speech is this?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-19-2007, 11:53 PM
^yeaa...
if thats what is going to happen, then i would say it is Qawmal Qiyama.
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-19-2007, 11:55 PM
ye but i thot dajjal comin AFTA that...
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-19-2007, 11:58 PM
well it doesnt have to come right away. its still a sign, no? lol
if that makes sense at all :X
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-19-2007, 11:59 PM
^ no it didnt :)
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Helena
01-20-2007, 12:03 AM
am not exactly sure wot ur discussing here..am lil confused...

i can recommend a book....proper detailed, informative about each signs before the day of judgement...with hadiths andd Quran...

let me search the name...worth buying it...cost 12 punds from regents park mosque in other places such as zam zam it is 15 or 20 quid....

its called.....

Book of the end(great trials and tribulations) by al-hafiz ibn katheer dimashqi, translated by: faisal shafiq...
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-20-2007, 12:05 AM
no lol, i just want a propa interpretation of that sign...
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chacha_jalebi
01-20-2007, 12:06 AM
there also a hadiths in bukhari in kitab bidd al khalq, i tink sayin "when the sun sets, it goes and prostrates beneath the throne and waits for permision to rise again,but theres goin to be a time, when Allah swt, wil tel the sun to go back where it came from"

so basicaly the sun instead of risin in east wil b told to rise from west, subhanAllah:D!! i duno why sheikh deedat wud say dat it wont though
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-20-2007, 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
there also a hadiths in bukhari in kitab bidd al khalq, i tink sayin "when the sun sets, it goes and prostrates beneath the throne and waits for permision to rise again,but theres goin to be a time, when Allah swt, wil tel the sun to go back where it came from"

so basicaly the sun instead of risin in east wil b told to rise from west, subhanAllah:D!! i duno why sheikh deedat wud say dat it wont though
ye i heard all dese b4, jazakAllah khair needed da reminder,

i was baffled aswel, lol perhaps the sheikh didnt hear all this :)
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
01-20-2007, 12:09 AM
:sl:

I dont think that the Hadith can mean, that once people see the people in the west becoming Muslim they'll all want to become Muslim. But remember that Ahmed Deedat is a Comparative Religion scholor, and not a Faqhi or a Hadith scholor. For understanding this Hadith, go to the proper scholors.

The sun is one of the signs of Allaah, for which He has created a course in which it runs, and a system from which it does not change. It rises in the east every day, but when Allaah gives permission for the world to end and the Hour to begin, He will command it to rise from the west. At that time all people will believe and will be certain of the resurrection, but their faith will not avail them anything at that moment, except for those who believed before.
http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=71201&ln=eng
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Malaikah
01-20-2007, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
ye but i thot dajjal comin AFTA that...
:sl:

Are you sure? Because when the sun rises from the west the doors for repentance close (:X), but we know that after the dajjal Isa (as) is going to come and people have to convert to Islam, so how can they convert if the doors for repentance are closed? :?
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Abdul Fattah
01-20-2007, 12:10 AM
Well there might certainly be a logic in the comments made, because assuming that the same rules of physics still apply that would indeed be troublesome. However why would one assume that Allah subhana wa ta'ala would still enforce the same laws during that miracle? It's a miracle, and miracles have a tendency to occur under different rules as the normal rules. Furthermore it could be that the earth stops and turns around, but remember all movement is relative. Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best, and yes it sounds difficult to imagen this will occur, but having faith, I believe it will. Also, the hadeeths are quite explicit about the sun actually rising, so I doubt it's a metaphor.

"The Prophet (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) asked me, 'Do you know
where the sun goes when it sets?' I said, 'I do not know' He said, 'It
travels until it prostrates itself beneath the Throne, and asks for
permission to rise again. But a time will come when it will be told, 'Go
back whence you came.' That will be the time when 'No good will it do to
a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good (by
performing deeds of righteousness) through his Faith' " [Bukhaaree] [5]
source: http://www.islambasics.com/index.php...ownload&BID=73
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-20-2007, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

Are you sure? Because when the sun rises from the west the doors for repentance close (:X), but we know that after the dajjal Isa (as) is going to come and people have to convert to Islam, so how can they convert if the doors for repentance are closed? :?
i thot dajjal was gnna close the doors to repentance :X now im all confused!!
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chacha_jalebi
01-20-2007, 12:14 AM
also bro i think its important to say that, sum scholars interpret the sun comin from west as meanin that islam wil rise in the west, lik the sun is muslims and not literaly d sun. but i believe the actual sun wil rise cos of the hadith dat says the sun wil b told to go back wer it came from :D
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lolwatever
01-20-2007, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i thot dajjal was gnna close the doors to repentance :X now im all confused!!
nope defiantely its the sun rising..

and steve ya ur right.. miracles by definition defy the natural laws , otherwise they're not really miracles.

:w:
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Malaikah
01-20-2007, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by steve
and yes it sounds difficult to imagen this will occur,
:sl:

It isn't hard at all, here's one possibility:

Allah swt FREEZES the planet earth and everything in it (you know, like how they used to do in cartoons:D) So all the mountains/trees and everything just freeze. Then He orders the earth to slow down and start spinning in the opposite direction (keeping in mind that the earth itself, molecules and everything are 100% frozen in place), then when the earth reaches its normal speed but in the opposite direction, he unfreezes the earth and tada, direction is reversed, and the sun rises from the west, then everyone who made fun of Islam realises that this is exactly what Prophet Muhammad pbuh said would happen, but TOO LATE FOR THEM.
:shade:

OR, he could just say 'Be', and it is. :D
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-20-2007, 12:19 AM
or maybe the worlds slowing down RIGHT NOW and gettin ready to reverse AS WE're TYPING :uuh:
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
01-20-2007, 12:20 AM
:sl:

Remember the axis of the Earth changes every year. That is also quite a massive movement.
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lolwatever
01-20-2007, 12:22 AM
does it really matter how it happens? the moon split... i find that even more amazing... jesus spoke from cradle without going to any armaic classes... etc etc etc....

even after th eprophet miracles would happen every now and then on tough occasions... sun rising from west is just another oen of those (but super important) ones.
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Malaikah
01-20-2007, 12:22 AM
:sl:

What do you mean by the axis changes?:?

Subhanallah it is amazing to think that we are actually moving at really high speeds and spinning around in a circle and we don't even realise it. :uuh:
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Malaikah
01-20-2007, 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
does it really matter how it happens?
:sl:

Yeh... it's cool to think about it :shade: (as long as we don't witness it:X)

the moon split... i find that even more amazing...
No way! That is easy compared to this!

jesus spoke from cradle without going to any armaic classes... etc etc etc....
That is easy too, although I always wondered what it would like to see a new born speak... I wonder if he had a baby voice?:statisfie
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lolwatever
01-20-2007, 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by steve
Well there might certainly be a logic in the comments made, because assuming that the same rules of physics still apply that would indeed be troublesome. However why would one assume that Allah subhana wa ta'ala would still enforce the same laws during that miracle? It's a miracle, and miracles have a tendency to occur under different rules as the normal rules. Furthermore it could be that the earth stops and turns around, but remember all movement is relative. Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best, and yes it sounds difficult to imagen this will occur, but having faith, I believe it will. Also, the hadeeths are quite explicit about the sun actually rising, so I doubt it's a metaphor.

"The Prophet (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) asked me, 'Do you know
where the sun goes when it sets?' I said, 'I do not know' He said, 'It
travels until it prostrates itself beneath the Throne, and asks for
permission to rise again. But a time will come when it will be told, 'Go
back whence you came.' That will be the time when 'No good will it do to
a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good (by
performing deeds of righteousness) through his Faith' " [Bukhaaree] [5]
source: http://www.islambasics.com/index.php...ownload&BID=73
oh btw bro that second hadith... there's a thread soemwhere here about that.. and i explained that its nothign to do with sun physically standing or setting.. the wording of the hadith doesnt imply that either.

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...les#post619066

tc :w:
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
01-20-2007, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

What do you mean by the axis changes?:?

Subhanallah it is amazing to think that we are actually moving at really high speeds and spinning around in a circle and we don't even realise it. :uuh:
:sl:

The tilting of the earth which causes the seasons.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-20-2007, 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ no it didnt :)
LOL! i didnt thinkso..thanx for being honest :X
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Woodrow
01-20-2007, 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
naa mishti guy he actually said that its impossible because the world will have to come to a halt and if that happens everything would be flying everywhere so it must be that the west will go all islamic but im thinkin Allaah can do NETHIN!!
Nope, no need to stop. We all know the Earth wobbles on it's axis and in the past there have been drastic shifts. If there is ever a 180 degree shift north and south will shift and in respect to the sun we will now be rotating in the opposite direction and the sun will rise in the west. No stoping and restarting the rotation, just simply turning us upside down. It is a very probable thing that will happen one day.
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-20-2007, 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Nope, no need to stop. We all know the Earth wobbles on it's axis and in the past there have been drastic shifts. If there is ever a 180 degree shift north and south will shift and in respect to the sun we will now be rotating in the opposite direction and the sun will rise in the west. No stoping and restarting the rotation, just simply turning us upside down. It is a very probable thing that will happen one day.
interesting..
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Snowflake
01-20-2007, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Nope, no need to stop. We all know the Earth wobbles on it's axis and in the past there have been drastic shifts. If there is ever a 180 degree shift north and south will shift and in respect to the sun we will now be rotating in the opposite direction and the sun will rise in the west. No stoping and restarting the rotation, just simply turning us upside down. It is a very probable thing that will happen one day.

Good explanation. I believe this will literally happen. SubhanAllah!
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lolwatever
01-21-2007, 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
Good explanation. I believe this will literally happen. SubhanAllah!
I've actually read that it's possible but improbable, by Dr Zaghlul .. geologist.

Whatever the case Allahu alam :)
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iqbal_soofi
01-21-2007, 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
:salamext:

Ahmed deedat thinks the sun rising from the west is the muslims spreadin dawah thru the west and making a propa pious army in the west.

is there any article or anything to refute this? i dont have a lot of knowledge on this but i really thought the sun will literally rise from the west...
It means that enlightenment will come from the west. It's already comming from there.
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lolwatever
01-21-2007, 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
It means that enlightenment will come from the west. It's already comming from there.
then how do you explain the hadiths which say that tawbah stops at that point, and the other hadith about the sun asking Allah for permission...

:w:
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peacechaser
01-21-2007, 03:26 AM
:sl:

Allah said in the Qur'an that He likes to make idioms (forgot about the surah, sorry...)

Related to this "sun from west" problem, it might be one of His idioms, which could have the other meaning!

Still...

Whatever the case Allahu alam
Yeah, we cannot simply say "it's definitely this" or "definitely that", moreover if connected to Allah's plan. I think it's better for us to prepare for the future, and make Allah's clues as our direction, regardless whose theory was correct. If you see the sun rising from the west, OR there is a circumstance where people in the west are very drastically enter Islam and there is no possibility of the real sun rising in west, then the "day" has closed by. Simple, eh?:P

InshaAllah He plans the best for us, InshaAllah..

:w:
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lolwatever
01-21-2007, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by peacechaser
:sl:

Allah said in the Qur'an that He likes to make idioms (forgot about the surah, sorry...)

Related to this "sun from west" problem, it might be one of His idioms, which could have the other meaning!

Still...



Yeah, we cannot simply say "it's definitely this" or "definitely that", moreover if connected to Allah's plan. I think it's better for us to prepare for the future, and make Allah's clues as our direction, regardless whose theory was correct. If you see the sun rising from the west, OR there is a circumstance where people in the west are very drastically enter Islam and there is no possibility of the real sun rising in west, then the "day" has closed by. Simple, eh?:P

InshaAllah He plans the best for us, InshaAllah..

:w:
idioms are only used to make a point. Prophecies are clear in what they refer to.

and suppose we take your interpretation... wat u make of this: ?

Originally Posted by lolwatever
then how do you explain the hadiths which say that tawbah stops at that point, and the other hadith about the sun asking Allah for permission...

:w:
:w: :D
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NobleMuslimUK
01-21-2007, 03:40 AM
Allah says, describing the movement of the sun and its submission to the command of Allah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All‑Mighty, the All‑Knowing”

[Ya-Seen 36:38]

This is explained in the Sunnah. Al-Bukhaari (3199) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said to Abu Dharr, when the sun set: “Do you know where it goes?” He said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He said: “It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, and it asks for permission, and permission is given to it. But soon it will prostrate and it will not be accepted from it, and it will ask for permission and permission will not be given to it, and it will be said to it: ‘Go back from where you came.’ So it will rise from its place of setting, and that is what Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All‑Mighty, the All‑Knowing.’”

Al-Tahhaawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said in his well known book al-‘Aqeedah: We believe in the portents of the Hour, the emergence of the Dajjaal, the descent of ‘Eesa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him) from heaven, and we believe that the sun will rise from the west. End quote.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Similarly, the sun and moon travel in their orbits along the courses decreed for them until an appointed time, until Allaah will give permission for this universe to be destroyed. Then the sun will emerge from its place of setting as is narrated in Saheeh al-Bukhaari from Abu Dharr. Then he quoted the hadeeth mentioned above.

This hadeeth clearly indicates that the sun travels by itself, as is also indicated by the verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the sun runs on its fixed course”

[Ya-Seen 36:38]

“Each running (on a fixed course) for an appointed term”

[al-Zumar 39:5]

“each in an orbit floating”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:33]

This evidence proves false the idea that the sun is fixed and does not move, and indicates that this is a false notion which should be refuted. End quote from Majmoo’ Fataawa wa Rasaa’il al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (6/195).
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Muslim Knight
01-21-2007, 04:45 AM
Dr. Daniel Hakim writes in his book, "The Muslim Mind Empire" that some hukama say the sun rising from the west means bright victory of Islam might appear in Western countries. If this is so then we can expect the next Muslim resurgence will happen in the West.

I have read in newspapers and magazines saying there are more Europeans, Americans and Latinos embracing Islam every year. We all have heard how Islam is the fastest growing religion in America.

Could it be that the hadith isn't meant to be taken literally? If Islam does not grow strong in the East it will do so in the West? That we may finally learn the lesson that Allah will give guidance to whomever He pleases?

If we mean to take that hadith literally then, we have to consider a worldwide catastrophe, like a comet impact that would alter the direction of Earth's rotation. By then, maybe no one's repentance would be accepted, since everybody would have been dead.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
01-21-2007, 04:58 AM
:sl:

We should not re-interpret what the Messenger :arabic5: has told us. We believe in everything that he has brought and we believe that it is indeed the Truth in which there is no doubt.

So just as we believe that Moon was split, and it's splitting should have caused massive floods and tsunami's, indeed the Sun will rise from the West. We believe in it, in all of it. There is no reason to question the how, as that knowledge is only with Allah. The Ahadith are clear on the matter.
Abu Hurayrah said, "The Prophet said, 'Hasten to do good deeds before six
things happen: the rising of the sun from the West, the smoke, the Dajjal,
the beast, the (death) of one of you, or general tribulation."
(Ahmad, Muslim.)
The only these ahadith will make sense is the literal rising of the sun from the West.
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Muslim Knight
01-21-2007, 05:03 AM
Ahmed is that you?

Btw, it's just an opinion since so many scholars have conjectured in the issue. I do not deny the hadiths.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
01-21-2007, 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Ahmed is that you?

Btw, it's just an opinion since so many scholars have conjectured in the issue. I do not deny the hadiths.
:w:

Yeah.

I didnt mean that you were denying it. But its a general reminder against reinterpretation. :)
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lolwatever
01-21-2007, 05:31 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Dr. Daniel Hakim writes in his book, "The Muslim Mind Empire" that some hukama say the sun rising from the west means bright victory of Islam might appear in Western countries. If this is so then we can expect the next Muslim resurgence will happen in the West.

I have read in newspapers and magazines saying there are more Europeans, Americans and Latinos embracing Islam every year. We all have heard how Islam is the fastest growing religion in America.

Could it be that the hadith isn't meant to be taken literally? If Islam does not grow strong in the East it will do so in the West? That we may finally learn the lesson that Allah will give guidance to whomever He pleases?

If we mean to take that hadith literally then, we have to consider a worldwide catastrophe, like a comet impact that would alter the direction of Earth's rotation. By then, maybe no one's repentance would be accepted, since everybody would have been dead.
hey bro but then wat would u make of wat i said?

Originally Posted by lolwatever
then how do you explain the hadiths which say that tawbah stops at that point, and the other hadith about the sun asking Allah for permission...

:w:
Originally Posted by Al Madani
:sl:

We should not re-interpret what the Messenger :arabic5: has told us. We believe in everything that he has brought and we believe that it is indeed the Truth in which there is no doubt.
The only these ahadith will make sense is the literal rising of the sun from the West.
jazaks.. btw das interseting about tsunamis n stuff... i wonder if there where.. too bad (or perhaps not too bad) makkah is too far from ocean to witness tht stuff.. n the nature of arabia's terrain..

:w: :D
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-21-2007, 11:52 AM
no the proof is too clear, if we look at the hadith carefully its very clear that the sun will literally rise from the west bi-idhnillaah
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Snowflake
01-21-2007, 02:05 PM
:giggling: I don't know why some people find it hard to believe that the sun will literally rise from the West. If Allah can create the Universe in the first place, He can make anything happen. Just because Allah tells us in the Quran that the sun runs in an appointed course, that doesn't mean the appointed term doesn't end. It just means it will run in it's course until Allah's wills. :)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-21-2007, 04:24 PM
^^i agree!
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- Qatada -
01-21-2007, 04:51 PM
:salamext:


I was listening in a lecture by Yahya Ibrahim [his lecture the tafsir of surah luqman] and he explained that all it takes for the earth to spin the other way is for the wind to be blown continously in the opposite direction.

He said that if the wind keeps blowing to the opposite direction [which may take about a year] to the direction its blowing today , the earth will start spinning the other way after about a year, month, week and some days.


And then we know that theres a hadith that when al-dajjaal [the antichrist] comes; the first day he comes on earth will last for a whole year, then the next day equivalent to a month, then a week, then the remainder of the days.



Saheeh Muslim #7015

We said: Allah's Apostle (sal Allaahu alayhi waSalam), how long will he stay on Earth?

He said:For forty days, one day like a year, one day like a month, one day like a week, and the rest of the days will be like your days.

We said: Allah's Apostle will one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of the day equal to one year?

Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of the time (and then observe prayer).



http://muttaqun.com/dajjal.html





That theory matches it perfectly masha'Allaah.
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- Qatada -
01-21-2007, 06:31 PM
:salamext:


This is what the brother said in the lecture [Yahya Ibrahim - tafsir surah Luqman] - please read:



In studying geology and geo-chemistry, in 2nd year the professor began to discuss that the earth revolved in the opposite direction in atleast 3 occasions.


What does that tell me? Instead of the sun rising from the east it rises from the west. How simple is it for the earth to change direction? One thing has to change - the calculation is that its only 0.3 that changes. Its that the wind blows from the opposite directions. The winds that are at a stratespherical level move the opposite way. No scientist can tell you where wind started, but they know that 3x in history of the earth where the wind moved in the opposite direction, and the earth therefore moved in the opposite direction.


I tell you by Allah, when you look at the calculation - the earth takes a full year to slow down.

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said that when Al-Dajjaal is on the earth, the first day he is on the earth it is like the time of one year, then the earth starts to speed up spin in the opposite direction. The total span of time comes to the exact amount of days mentioned by the Prophet; One year, one month [infact not 30 days but 29days] plus one week plus one days time.


You can calculate it to the fraction of 0.3.



The Messenger of Allaah said:(Dajjaal will stay) For forty days, one day like a year, one day like a month, one day like a week, and the rest of the days will be like your days.

Saheeh Muslim #7015



To Allah belong all things in heaven and earth: verily Allah is He (that is) free of all wants, worthy of all praise.

[Qur'an Surah Luqman 31:26]

Subhan Allaah what a miracle! :)
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-21-2007, 06:35 PM
JAZAKALLAH KHAIR FI-sAB :)
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Skillganon
01-21-2007, 06:36 PM
Brother Fi Sabillah I do not know about this calculation to be genuine, neither do I think we should use such theorising to explain.
(I will check but I still hold what I said)

Rather we should just be content that it will happen someday and leave it at that.
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iqbal_soofi
01-22-2007, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
then how do you explain the hadiths which say that tawbah stops at that point, and the other hadith about the sun asking Allah for permission...

:w:
In the first place I'm not a mullah who could explain any hadith the way you want to be explained. Secondly, I see the world with open heart and mind. Now a day all those seeking for some useful knowledge go to the western universities to seek the knowledge. Also all the useful subjects taught in eastern universities are developed in the west and coming from the west. Therefore, I don't find it much difficult to believe that enlightenment is coming from the west. However, if you still want to get yourself stuck in some hadith with which you could believe otherwise, and then it's all your choice. Nobody can make you open your mind and heart if you want it to be closed. There're plenty of so-called religious scholars these days that are helping the people like you.
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Woodrow
01-22-2007, 05:07 PM
Do we realy have any legitimate need to go beyond what Brother Skillganon said:


Rather we should just be content that it will happen someday and leave it at that.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
01-22-2007, 05:23 PM
:sl:

^ Good point.

:threadclo
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