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kadafi
01-06-2005, 09:09 AM
There are many prophecies of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Bible; both in the book of the Old Testament and the book of the New Testament. The Qur’an tells us about this fact in surat As-Saff. Almighty Allah says: [And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel ! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when be hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.] (As-Saff 61: 6)

“There are many citations in the Bible prophesying the coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). All of Isaiah chapter 42 stands out as an obvious reference to Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as a Messenger of Allah. This chapter describes him as a "light to the Gentiles." While Jesus repeatedly says, "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel " (See Matthew 15:24 , 5:17 -18, and 10:5-6) It is only Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon both of him) that was sent as a Messenger for all of mankind (Jews and Gentiles).

Isaiah 42 makes a reference to this "servant of the Lord" as coming from the land of Kedar . It is important to note that Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, a forefather of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). One of the most striking prophecies of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) stand clear in Isaiah 21: ‘“An oracle concerning Arabia: You caravans of Dedanites, who camp in the thickets of Arabia , bring water to the thirsty; you who live in Tema, bring food for the fugitives. They flee from the sword, from the drawn sword, from the bent bow and from the heat of battle. This is what the Lord says to me: "Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the pomp of Kedar will come to an end. The survivors of the bowmen, the warriors of Kedar will be few.’ The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.” (Isaiah 21:13-17)

This prophecy takes place in Arabia, the land of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). The "fugitives" in this case are the Prophet and his faithful Companions (may Allah be pleased with them). They fled from Makkah, leaving when Muhammad’s house was surrounded by the Quraish, drawn swords in hand. He fled to Madinah, peacefully acquired converts numbering upwards of ten thousand. Muhammad returned to fight the great Battle of Badr, in which the idolatrous Quraish, "the pomp of Kedar", suffered a crushing defeat. To this day, no Christian or Jewish Biblical scholar can generate an historic event that fits this prophecy.

Yet another prophecy of Muhammad, similar to this one, occurs in Deuteronomy 33:1-2: “And this is the blessing, where Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, the Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Se’ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran , and he came with ten thousand saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.”

The Lord coming from Sinai alludes to Moses and "[rising] up from Se’ir" refers to Jesus (peace be upon both of them), as the place of his birth was called Se’ir. The prophet who "shined forth from mount Paran " can be none other than Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). Paran is the ancient name of the region of Arabia where the children of Ishmael settled. In Arabic, Paran is "Farran", which actually refers to Makkah and literally means "two refugees." It appears as though this took its name from Hagar and Ishmael (peace be upon them both) who went to this region as refugees when Ishmael was still young. And of course, coming with ten thousand saints, or holy men, descending upon Makkah, bearing a fiery law (the Glorious Qur’an) is an unmistakable reference to Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

Another reference to the Prophet is given by Jesus, where Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is referred to as the "Counselor" and the "Spirit of Truth". Jesus says: “But I tell you the truth. It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” (John 16:7)

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.” (John 16:12-14)

Since Jesus (peace be upon him) indicates that the Counselor will not come unless Jesus himself, leaves, it is virtually impossible for the Counselor to be the Holy Ghost, as some Christian scholars contend. The Holy Ghost occurs in Scripture before, during, and after Jesus’ life, so it cannot be that Jesus must leave for the Holy Ghost to arrive. It is already there. Similar to the "prophet like Moses" in Deuteronomy 18, this Counselor "will speak only what he hears." Through the Qur’an, the final revelation of Allah, and through the Sunnah, Muhammad is the one to guide us "into all truth." And both the Qur’an and Hadith tell us "what is yet to come." As for glorifying Jesus, Allah tells us in 3:56 that the Qur’an clears Jesus of the lies and speculation surrounding his life and his death.

There are a number of remaining references to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Bible, one where he is even mentioned by name in the original Hebrew (Song of Songs 5:9-16)! "Cheeko mame tah kim, vechulo Mohamadim." This means "His language is most sweet, and he is Muhammad." In the English translations of the Bible, Muhammad's name is translated as "altogether lovely".”

Uma Rayanah
01-09-2005, 01:30 PM
:sl:

~*I hope u r all in da best state of health 'N' iman inshallah*~

Jazaak allaah khriah

I’m doing an assignment about dis topic my self,, I did print out dis article thanx much appreciated

Sinner
02-26-2005, 12:07 PM
Sorry for the length of my response, the arguments presented to support the idea Mohammad was to be found in the Bible doesn't hold up. The best interpreter of the Bible is the Bible itself.

>Jesus repeatedly says, "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel "

Jesus is saying that the Jews, the people of the Promise, were to be the first to hear the Gospel. The Jewish leadership rejected this Gospel, thus the way was opened for the Gospel to be preached those ouside the house of Israel.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Luk 24:45 Then He opened up their mind to understand the Scriptures,
Luk 24:46 and said to them, So it is written, and so the Christ must suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day.
Luk 24:47 And repentance and remission of sins must be preached on His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

>coming with ten thousand saints, or holy men, descending upon Makkah, bearing a fiery law (the Glorious Qur’an) is an unmistakable reference to Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

The word for "Saints" in this passage could just as easily refer to Angels. This would have been a better translation.

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

"Again, when Moses on Mount Sinai desired to see the face of God Himself he was not permitted to do so, only to witness the glory of the LORD passing by: "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live" (Exodus 33:20). The Lord Jesus confirmed this when he said, "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18). The angels therefore brought divine information to men and women, which they could not otherwise receive because of God's holiness and man's sinfulness."

http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/angels.htm#4


Gen 32:1 And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
Gen 32:2 And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.

"The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place." (Psalm 68:17)

"Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure." (Psalm 103:20,21)

"Bless the LORD ... who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: who maketh his angels spirits: his ministers a flaming fire." (Psalm 104:1-4)


>Isaiah 42 makes a reference to this "servant of the Lord" as coming from the land of Kedar .

It does not, re-read the passage carefully.

Isa 42:10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 42:11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

This "servant of the Lord" , refered to in Isa 42:1 was Jesus. He said so himself -

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luk 7:20 And having come to Him, the men said, John the Baptist sent us to You, saying, Are You the One coming, or should we expect another?
Luk 7:21 And in the same hour He healed many from diseases and plagues and evil spirits. And He gave to many blind ones ability to see.
Luk 7:22 And answering, Jesus said to them, Going, report to John what you saw and heard; that blind ones are seeing again, lame ones are walking about, leprous ones are being cleansed, deaf ones are hearing, dead ones are being raised, poor ones are preached the Gospel. (Isa. 35:5, 6; 61:1)
Luk 7:23 And blessed is he who is not offended in Me.


>Since Jesus (peace be upon him) indicates that the Counselor will not come unless Jesus himself, leaves, it is virtually impossible for the Counselor to be the Holy Ghost, as some Christian scholars contend.

Not so. Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a person, not just the manifestation. of the power of God. The Counselor was to be given to the very disciples who heard this promise from Jesus, to endow them with power to preach the Gospel.

Luk 24:45 Then He opened up their mind to understand the Scriptures,
Luk 24:46 and said to them, So it is written, and so the Christ must suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day.
Luk 24:47 And repentance and remission of sins must be preached on His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And you are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send forth the promise of My Father on you. But you sit in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high.

This promise was fulfilled in Acts -

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

kadafi
02-27-2005, 01:57 PM
Sorry for the length of my response, the arguments presented to support the idea Mohammad was to be found in the Bible doesn't hold up. The best interpreter of the Bible is the Bible itself. Greetings sinner,

Let's examine your response then :)


>Jesus repeatedly says, "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel "

Jesus is saying that the Jews, the people of the Promise, were to be the first to hear the Gospel. The Jewish leadership rejected this Gospel, thus the way was opened for the Gospel to be preached those ouside the house of Israel.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. I've to disagree with that verse. This verse(s) were not the actual words of Jesus. This is explained in two folds:

1.Baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus.

2. The "Great Commission" was found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost - see Mark 16:15. The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7. Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical test, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.

But let's ignore this extraneous point (not related to the prophecy) and discuss the prophecy.


>coming with ten thousand saints, or holy men, descending upon Makkah, bearing a fiery law (the Glorious Qur’an) is an unmistakable reference to Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

The word for "Saints" in this passage could just as easily refer to Angels. This would have been a better translation. The word is not ambigious at all.

Let's look at the verse(s)

KJV Deuteronomy 33
33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

In this verse, the Lord is bein' compared with the sun. Now, none of the Israelities or Jesus had any connection with Paran. In Genesis 21:21, it states that Hagar with her son Ishmael, wandererd in the wilderness of Beersheba and later on in the wilderness of Paran. Ismael married a Egyptian woman and she bore him a son named Kedar who then gave descent to the Arabs who are now the dwellers of Paran.


>Isaiah 42 makes a reference to this "servant of the Lord" as coming from the land of Kedar .

It does not, re-read the passage carefully.

Isa 42:10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 42:11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

This "servant of the Lord" , refered to in Isa 42:1 was Jesus. He said so himself - Ishmael inhabited the wilderness of Paran, where he fathered to Kedar, who is the ancestor of Arabs; and if the sons of Kedar had to receive revelation from God; if the flocks of Kedar had to come up with acceptance to a Divine alter to glorify “the house of my glory” where the darkness had to cover the earth for some centuries, and then that very land had to receive light from God; and if all the glory of Kedar had to fail and the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, had to diminish within a year after the one fled from the swords and from the bent bows…the Holy one from Paran (KJV Habakkuk 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.) This is no one else, than Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad is the offspring of Ishmael through Kedar, who settled in the wilderness of Paran. Prophet Muhammad is the only prophet through whom the Arabs received the revelation. Through Prophet Muhammad God shone from Paran, and Makkah is the only place where the house of God is glorified and flocks of Kedar came up with acceptance on its alter.


Prophet Muhammad was persecuted by his people and he had to leave Makkah {to Madinah}. It was Prophet Muhammad (SAW) who was thirsty and fled from drawn swords and the bent bow, and within a year after his flight the descendants of Kedar met him at Badr {Battle of Badr} where children of Kedar and their number of archers diminished and the glory of Kedar failed.




The house of my glory' referred to in Isaiah 60 is the Kaba’h in Makkah not the so-called “Church of Jesus Christ.” The flocks of Kedar as mentioned in verse 7, have never come to any Church of Jesus Christ; and it is in fact that the village of Kedar and their inhabitants are the only people in the whole world who have remained impenetrable to any influence of the Christianity. Again, the mention of 10, 000 saints is Deuteronomy 33:3 is very significant. God shined forth from Paran, and he came with 10, 000 saints. One can read the whole history of the wilderness of Paran without finding any other event but the conquest of Makkah by the Prophet Muhammad with his 10, 000 followers (referred as saints in the prophecy) and reentered “the house of my glory.” He gave the fiery law to the world that reduced to ashes all other laws.


Sorry for the belated reply.

Peace

yoshiyahu
03-10-2005, 05:19 AM
Isaiah 42 doesn't speak of a servant of the Lord coming from Kedar. The only thing it says about it is in verse 11, which reads:


The desert and its cities shall raise [their voice]; Kedar shall be inhabited with villages; the rock dwellers shall exult, from the mountain peaks they shall shout.

I don't understand how Isaiah 21:13-17 applies to Mohammed.

The person who shined from Mount Paran was a manifestation of G-d, similar to the Burning bush, as revealed by the context:


1 And this is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the children of Israel [just] before his death. 2 He said: "The Lord came from Sinai and shone forth from Seir to them; He appeared from Mount Paran and came with some of the holy myriads; from His right hand was a fiery Law for them. 3 Indeed, You showed love for peoples; all his holy ones are in Your hand, for they let themselves be centered at Your feet, bearing Your utterances.

Last reference from the Tanakh. You said that:


There are a number of remaining references to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Bible, one where he is even mentioned by name in the original Hebrew (Song of Songs 5:9-16)! "Cheeko mame tah kim, vechulo Mohamadim." This means "His language is most sweet, and he is Muhammad." In the English translations of the Bible, Muhammad's name is translated as "altogether lovely".”

The transliteration is not entirely correct. מַחֲמַדִּים is pronounced "Mauch-chau-mau-deem". The "eem" ending denotes a masculine plural. It is the plural of the word מחמד "mauch-maud", which means pleasant, lovely, or desirable. If it were Mohammed's name, it would be vowalized differently and would not have a plural ending.

kadafi
03-10-2005, 07:55 AM
Peace!


Isaiah 42 doesn't speak of a servant of the Lord coming from Kedar. The only thing it says about it is in verse 11, which reads: Isaiah 42:

042:001 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles 042:002 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 042:003 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 042:004 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

042:006 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

042:008 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

The prophecy here is about the promised one who will be the elect and the favorite of God. Universal leadership and Divine guidance would be bestowed upon him. Furthermore, it states that he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles (non-Jews). Before one applies this to Jesus, one should also bear in mind that these characteristics do not apply to Jesus at all. Jesus didn't establish any empire, nor did he sat on judgement over nations. Furthermore, the words "My Servant" is the translation for the name AbdAllah in Arabic which is one of the main titles of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

In addition, Jesus was not the servant/slave or bonds of God accordin' to the Christian belief. He was god himself or son of god and thus he is not the object of this prophecy.

Let's look at the term "elect". Elect is the translation of the Arabic word Mustafa (Chosen one) which is one of the many names of the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

The word spirit is also used in the sense of revelation from Allah. This is evidentily in the Qur'an:

"And thus We have sent to you (O Muhammad) Rooh (a revelation, and a
mercy) of Our Command. You knew not what is the Book, nor what is Faith?
But We have made it (this Qur'aan) a light wherewith We guide whosoever
of Our slaves We will. And verily, you (O Muhammad) are indeed guiding
(mankind) to the Straight Path (i.e. Allaah's religion of Islamic
Monotheism). The path of Allaah to Whom belongs all that is in the heavens
and all that is in the earth. Verily, all matters at the end go to
Allaah (for decision)" [al-Shoora 42:52-53]

And they ask you [O Muhammad] concerning the rooh [the spirit]. Say: ‘The rooh: it is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.’ [al-Isra’ 17:85]

It's also stated in the prophecy:
He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

Obviously, this cannot be applied to Jesus 'cause accordin' to Christians; he was arrested and humiliated on the streets before his crucifixion.

However, it's mentioned in the authentic hadiths:

"Ata' Ibn Yasar narrated: I met 'Abdullah bin 'Umar bin 'Amr bin Al-'As and asked him: Tell me about the description of the Messenger of Allah which is mentioned in Torah." He replied, Yes. By Allah, he is mentioned Torah with his qualities found in the Quran as follows, O Prophet! We have sent you as a witness, and a giver of glad tidings, And a warner, and guardian of the illiterates. You are My slave and My Messenger. I have named you al-Mutawakkil (meaning Allahs dependent). You are neither discourteous, harsh, nor a noise-maker in the markets; You do not do evil to those Who do evil to you, but you deal With them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them say: There is no god but Allah. With which will be opened blind eyes, and deaf ears and enveloped hearts (2125 Bukhari)

The third verse: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth is referrin' that the servant of God would be a King and a Judge. Jesus never had such qualities and he was not a judge nor sat in the judgement of the guilty. And the verse also claims that his law will endure till eternity. This indicates to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) since his deeds and words are still preserved 'till this day. Jews, Christians or any other nation cannot claim that they've preserved the words and/or deeds of their Prophet 'till now. Hence why the Muslim Ummah (Nation) are the only nation who successfully preserved it.

I'd also like to mention that when a new Prophet appears, the previous law would become annulled by the succeeding law and thus does not remain in perpetuity. Hence, why the perpetuity in the enformecement of Law can only possible when no more Prophets are to follow the former.

We read in the next verse:
He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) established judgement on earth in his life time and also gave glad tidings of the perfection of faith.

As we read in the Qur'an:
This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon You, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."(Qur'an. 5:3]

I'd also like to mention that the dwellers of Paran were promised a revelation and this is evidentily in Isaiah 42:11-13:

042:011 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

042:12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.

042:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.


The person who shined from Mount Paran was a manifestation of G-d, similar to the Burning bush, as revealed by the context The Lord in this context refers to His Word.

"The Lord came from Sanai" -- refers to Musa (peace be upon him) since had his vision of God there.
"and rose up from Seur unto them" -- Seir refers to mountains near the Dead Sea, an area which includes Bethlehem and Jerusalem (refers to Isa --peace be upon him) and Paran is where Makkah is located (birthplace of Prophet Muhammad)

The 10k saints refers to his followers who liberated Makkah in a bloodless victory.


The transliteration is not entirely correct. מַחֲמַדִּים is pronounced "Mauch-chau-mau-deem". The "eem" ending denotes a masculine plural. It is the plural of the word מחמד "mauch-maud", which means pleasant, lovely, or desirable. If it were Mohammed's name, it would be vowalized differently and would not have a plural ending. Let's look at the full line:

חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם


"His mouth is most sweet: he is Muchamad the Great (מַחֲמַדִּי 1501. This is my Beloved, and this is my Friend, O daughters of Yerushalayim." Shir Ha'Shirim (Song of Songs) 5:16

The word מַחֲמַדִּ is not "mauch-maud" but Muhammadim. Furthermore, this plural suffix is an indication of grandeur, rather than plurality. Notice that there is no hebrew word for Muhammadim - hence the incorrect translation. Muhammadim is the plural of Mahamad (מַחְמ&#1464). The plural suffix at the end of Eloah demonstrates its grandeur which makes it Elohim. This is similiary to Mahamad which makes it Muhammadim. One cannot say "In the beginning Gods created the Heavens and Earth", the plural suffix has to come in to play in order to denote its grandeur.

Peace

Khattab
03-10-2005, 04:48 PM
Muhammadim, also I think the "im" at the end is used for respect in the hebrew language

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-10-2005, 06:26 PM
Yes, that's right.

yoshiyahu
03-10-2005, 09:50 PM
Muhammadim, also I think the "im" at the end is used for respect in the hebrew language

Hi Amir,

Perhaps it is because I am not completely fluent in Hebrew (yet), but I am unaware of any instances where the plural ending was added to a name to signify respect. Do you know of any other instances where this has happened?

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-10-2005, 10:04 PM
Elohim?

yoshiyahu
03-10-2005, 10:15 PM
Peace!

Isaiah 42:

042:001 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles 042:002 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 042:003 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 042:004 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

042:006 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

042:008 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

The prophecy here is about the promised one who will be the elect and the favorite of God. Universal leadership and Divine guidance would be bestowed upon him. Furthermore, it states that he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles (non-Jews). Before one applies this to Jesus, one should also bear in mind that these characteristics do not apply to Jesus at all. Jesus didn't establish any empire, nor did he sat on judgement over nations. Furthermore, the words "My Servant" is the translation for the name AbdAllah in Arabic which is one of the main titles of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

In addition, Jesus was not the servant/slave or bonds of God accordin' to the Christian belief. He was god himself or son of god and thus he is not the object of this prophecy.

Hi Kafadi,

Thanks for the quick response.
I don't identify this as Jesus - I am not a Christian.
Rather, these (and the other "servant" passages) are about Israel. Let's take a look at the context of Isaiah 42. Right before it begins, in Chapter 41, we read:

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)

Other verses in the "servant" passages identify this as Israel also:

[44:1] Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. (KJV)

[44:21] Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)

[45:4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)

[49:3] And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (KJV)





It's also stated in the prophecy:
He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

Obviously, this cannot be applied to Jesus 'cause accordin' to Christians; he was arrested and humiliated on the streets before his crucifixion.

While I don't agree with the Christian belief that this refers to Jesus, why would his humiliation cause this not to refer to him?


I'd also like to mention that the dwellers of Paran were promised a revelation and this is evidentily in Isaiah 42:11-13:

042:011 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

042:12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.

042:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

Where does this say that they will recieve a prophet? It seems to me that it is G-d telling them to praise him, and that G-d will destroy his enemies.


The Lord in this context refers to His Word.

"The Lord came from Sanai" -- refers to Musa (peace be upon him) since had his vision of God there.
"and rose up from Seur unto them" -- Seir refers to mountains near the Dead Sea, an area which includes Bethlehem and Jerusalem (refers to Isa --peace be upon him) and Paran is where Makkah is located (birthplace of Prophet Muhammad)

The 10k saints refers to his followers who liberated Makkah in a bloodless victory.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this part.

I'll get to the very last part in just a second.

yoshiyahu
03-10-2005, 10:19 PM
Elohim?

That's actually a very good example, but I don't think that would apply because technically it is a title that refers to entities who rule and/or judge humanity. Angels, Kings, Judges, and G-d are all refered to as "Elohim", though almost always it refers to G-d. For example, in Psalms 82 corrupt judges are reffered to this way.

I'd be more comfortable accepting this idea if you could find it with a person's name. For example, instead of "Adam" have "Adamim".

yoshiyahu
03-10-2005, 10:27 PM
Let's look at the full line:

חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם


"His mouth is most sweet: he is Muchamad the Great (מַחֲמַדִּי 1501. This is my Beloved, and this is my Friend, O daughters of Yerushalayim." Shir Ha'Shirim (Song of Songs) 5:16

The word מַחֲמַדִּ is not "mauch-maud" but Muhammadim. Furthermore, this plural suffix is an indication of grandeur, rather than plurality. Notice that there is no hebrew word for Muhammadim - hence the incorrect translation. Muhammadim is the plural of Mahamad (מַחְמ&#1464). The plural suffix at the end of Eloah demonstrates its grandeur which makes it Elohim. This is similiary to Mahamad which makes it Muhammadim. One cannot say "In the beginning Gods created the Heavens and Earth", the plural suffix has to come in to play in order to denote its grandeur.

Peace

Please refer to my latest post for my objection to the "im" ending.

But, for a hypothetical discussion, I will assume that translation is correct for the time being.

So we get a translation of "His mouth is most sweet; and he is altogether Mohammed(s). This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

Why is Mohammed being mentioned in a passage that is part of a love song between King Solomon and his Wife?

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-10-2005, 10:30 PM
Peace, Yoshiyahu.

Let's take a look at this verse:
Psalm 82:5-7*

They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
I said, "You are ELOHIM,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.

If I understand correctly, Elohim is being used to refer to mortals in this passage.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-10-2005, 10:42 PM
Peace Yoshiyahu,
I did some searching and i came up with some other Hebrew nouns that are plural in form but singluar in meaning. The following is a list. The masculine plural ending is 'im' and the feminine plural ending is 'oth'.

zequnim — old age (Gen. 21:2, 7; 37:3; 44:20).


ne`urim — youth. David was only a boy (na`ar), but Goliath "has been a fighting man from his youth [ne`urim]" (1 Sam. 17:33).


chayyim — life. This is used in the song "To life, to life, lechayyim" in Fiddler on the Roof.


gebhuroth — strength. The singular form gebhurah is the usual word for strength, but the plural form is used in Job 41:12.


tsedaqoth — righteousness. The singular form tsedaqah is the usual word, but tsedaqoth is used in Isaiah 33:15 — "he who walks righteously [or "in righteousness"]."


chokmoth — wisdom. Chokmah is the usual form, but chokmoth is used in Prov. 1:20.

'adonim — lord. 'adon means "lord," and 'adonim normally means "lords," but Isa. 19:4 says, "I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master ['adonim]."

behemoth. This word normally means beasts, but in Job 40:15 it refers to one animal.

To me, 'adonim seems like the best comparison with Muhammadim.

For more information on the subject, consult Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, pages 396-401, 1909 edition.

yoshiyahu
03-10-2005, 11:04 PM
Peace, Yoshiyahu.

Let's take a look at this verse:
Psalm 82:5-7*

They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
I said, "You are ELOHIM,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.

If I understand correctly, Elohim is being used to refer to mortals in this passage.

I agree - that is what I reffered to in Post #12

yoshiyahu
03-10-2005, 11:07 PM
I agree that verbs and titles can be used with a plural ending to refer to a single thing in certain cases, but I have not seen cases where a persons name that is singular (ex: Adam) can be changed to a plural (Ex: Adamim) to show respect. However, I will ask a Hebrew teacher of mine if she knows of any cases where this happens.


Peace Yoshiyahu,
I did some searching and i came up with some other Hebrew nouns that are plural in form but singluar in meaning. The following is a list. The masculine plural ending is 'im' and the feminine plural ending is 'oth'.

zequnim — old age (Gen. 21:2, 7; 37:3; 44:20).


ne`urim — youth. David was only a boy (na`ar), but Goliath "has been a fighting man from his youth [ne`urim]" (1 Sam. 17:33).


chayyim — life. This is used in the song "To life, to life, lechayyim" in Fiddler on the Roof.


gebhuroth — strength. The singular form gebhurah is the usual word for strength, but the plural form is used in Job 41:12.


tsedaqoth — righteousness. The singular form tsedaqah is the usual word, but tsedaqoth is used in Isaiah 33:15 — "he who walks righteously [or "in righteousness"]."


chokmoth — wisdom. Chokmah is the usual form, but chokmoth is used in Prov. 1:20.

'adonim — lord. 'adon means "lord," and 'adonim normally means "lords," but Isa. 19:4 says, "I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master ['adonim]."

behemoth. This word normally means beasts, but in Job 40:15 it refers to one animal.

To me, 'adonim seems like the best comparison with Muhammadim.

For more information on the subject, consult Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, pages 396-401, 1909 edition.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-10-2005, 11:10 PM
Well if you compare 'adonim and Muhammadim, they both are similar.

Also, the name Muhammad can be regarded as a title as well.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-11-2005, 12:55 AM
Elohim?
Elohim typically refers to a holy group or gathering.
When you see Elohim in Genesis, it does not only mean HaShem, it means HaShem and an assortment of Angels that compose the holy court in heaven.
:w:

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-11-2005, 12:58 AM
Is this agreed upon? I thought most Jews felt that it was specific to God, singular.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-11-2005, 01:21 AM
Is this agreed upon? I thought most Jews felt that it was specific to God, singular.
Aye. Grammatically, it is singular (just as one herd is singular and plural), but in the Jewish tradition it is agreed upon that it actually refers to the heavenly court when HaShem consulted his angels on the creation of the universe. It is plain to see when early in the first chapter it says "Let us make man in our image":

Gen 1:26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."

And here is the commentary that goes along side it:

Let us make man From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, (Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]
Let us make man Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
in our image in our form.
after our likeness to understand and to discern.
and they shall rule over the fish Heb. וְיִרְדּוּ This expression contains both the meaning of ruling and the meaning of subservience. If he merits, he rules over the beasts and over the cattle. If he does not merit, he becomes subservient to them, and the beast rules over him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 8:12]
http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=8165&showrashi=true

kadafi
03-11-2005, 06:26 PM
Hi Kafadi,

Thanks for the quick response.
I don't identify this as Jesus - I am not a Christian.
Rather, these (and the other "servant" passages) are about Israel. Let's take a look at the context of Isaiah 42. Right before it begins, in Chapter 41, we read:

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)

Other verses in the "servant" passages identify this as Israel also:

[44:1] Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. (KJV)

[44:21] Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)

[45:4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)

[49:3] And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (KJV)
Peace yoshiyahu,

I disagree with your point. It's not referrin' to Israel. The reason is that when the term my servant is mentioned, the person referrin' is also mentioned in the same verse.

For example,

Isaiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia.

Isaiah 37:35 For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.Similiary, the verses you cited also mention his names. However, the passage(s) (Isaiah 42) do not mention the prophecied Servant of God. And the qualities mentioned in the passage(s) of this particular person lead to Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).



While I don't agree with the Christian belief that this refers to Jesus, why would his humiliation cause this not to refer to him? Because it contradicts the followin' verse related to the prophecy:
He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.



Where does this say that they will recieve a prophet? It seems to me that it is G-d telling them to praise him, and that G-d will destroy his enemies. They will receive a revelation 'cause they promised one (refer to the above passages).

Furthermore, the Muslims were overjoyed when the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) arrived.

The women and children chanted, ‘This is the Messenger of Allah who has come! This is the Messenger of Allah who has come!'


The girls of the Ansar recited:
The full moon shines down upon us from Thaniyat al-Wada'.
We must all give our thanksgiving all the while praising Allaah
You whom Allaah sends among us,
What you bring, we will obey
You've ennobled Madinah.
Welcome now! Guide us to His way!

Compare that to the above mentioned passage.



So we get a translation of "His mouth is most sweet; and he is altogether Mohammed(s). This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

Why is Mohammed being mentioned in a passage that is part of a love song between King Solomon and his Wife? There is no plural but a grandeur.

For a more detailed elobration (lackin' time), please refer to

http://www.geocities.com/islamicmiracles/song_of_songs_5_16.htm

Peace!

yoshiyahu
03-13-2005, 02:09 AM
I disagree with your point. It's not referrin' to Israel. The reason is that when the term my servant is mentioned, the person referrin' is also mentioned in the same verse.

However, in the case mentioned (Isaiah 42) the servant is mentioned as Israel two verses earlier. Why should I think that it would have changed that quickly, when another name is not mentioned?


Because it contradicts the followin' verse related to the prophecy:
He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

I do not understand how that contradicts it. Could you explain?


They will receive a revelation 'cause they promised one (refer to the above passages).

Which verse says that the will recieve a revelation?

About the Shir HaShirim again - I think you can see that the translation of machmadim can be seen as either lovely or mohammed, and that by reading by the verse alone a clear conclusion can't be reached. In cases like this, reading the context usually helps. In this instance, the context (both before and after) is talking about something completely different. Why would one verse in this be so utterly different than the context of the verse?

One last question - does the Qu'ran ever quote this passage as a prophecy of Muhammed?

yoshiyahu
03-13-2005, 02:10 AM
P.S.

Although we have extremely different views here, it's very nice to see that everyone is keeping their cool. Thanks guys :D

mule
03-14-2005, 09:26 PM
I think that the context must regarded very carefully, because later in Chapter 42 it reads............

19. Who is blind but My servant, and deaf as My messenger whom I will send? He who was blind is as the one who received his payment, and he who was blind is as the servant of the Lord.

mule

kadafi
03-18-2005, 11:18 AM
Sorry for the belated replies. I was workin' on my assignments!


However, in the case mentioned (Isaiah 42) the servant is mentioned as Israel two verses earlier. Why should I think that it would have changed that quickly, when another name is not mentioned? My friend, Isaiah 42 prophecy is in no way referin' to Israel 'cause Israel was not bestowed with the universal leadership and Divine guidance to govern the affairs of the world. Israel was not sent to the Gentiles. Furthermore, the promised one is not a Jew since the reference of "Gentiles" means that he would be from the seed of Kedar (son of Ishmael -- peace be upon him) (refer to 42:11)


I do not understand how that contradicts it. Could you explain? Accordin' to the Christian history of Prophet Isa son of Maryam (Peace be upon him), when he was arrested, he was humiliated on the streets before his crucifixion.


About the Shir HaShirim again - I think you can see that the translation of machmadim can be seen as either lovely or mohammed, and that by reading by the verse alone a clear conclusion can't be reached. In cases like this, reading the context usually helps. In this instance, the context (both before and after) is talking about something completely different. Why would one verse in this be so utterly different than the context of the verse? The correct translation composed by a brother (refer to article) is:

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is MUHAMMAD. This is my (paternal) UNCLE, and this is my COMRADE, O daughters of Jerusalem." [Correct translation of Shir Hashirim (Song of Songs) 5:16]

Prophet Ishmael (peace be upon him) was the paternal uncle of the Nation of Israel.

The Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) conveyed the same Message as the past prophets. In other words, he would have been the Prophets' comrades (Ra'yaa).

A small excerpt:
Haggai 2:7 states "And I will shake all nations, AND THE DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS SHALL COME: and I will fill this house with glory saith the Lord of hosts."

In the Hebrew text it says "CHMD" pronounceable as "ACHMAD" (which is "AHMAD" in Arabic) in the place of "desire of all nations". Thus, the translation would be, "And I will shake all nations, AND AHMAD SHALL COME: and I will fill this house with glory saith the Lord of hosts."

Immediately after that, Haggai 2:9 says "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than the former: and in this place will I give PEACE, saith the Lord of hosts."

So which latter house? Since the last temple was destroyed by the Romans there has been no Jewish temple rebuilt there. There only stands the Dome of the Rock and Masjid al-Aqsa which is certainly a place of "Peace" or Islam.

"...and never have I seen anyone more handsome than Allah's Apostle (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Saheeh Muslim, 30:5770]


One last question - does the Qu'ran ever quote this passage as a prophecy of Muhammed? No it doesn't. In fact, the Qur'an doesn't quote any (passages) regardin' the Tampered Scriptures. All what was mentioned in the [original] Torah and the [origina] Injeel is mentioned in the Glorious Qur'an.

Peace!

Sinner
03-18-2005, 12:47 PM
The house of my glory' referred to in Isaiah 60 is the Kaba’h in Makkah not the so-called “Church of Jesus Christ. Greetings Kadafi. I really need to respond to this statement. The second part of it is totally correct. In the Old Testament, the 'house of my glory, always refers to the Temple on Mount Zion. I will only cite two passages in support -

1Ch 22:1 Then David said, This is the house of the LORD God, and this is the altar of the burnt offering for Israel.
1Ch 22:2 And David commanded to gather together the strangers that were in the land of Israel; and he set masons to hew wrought stones to build the house of God.
1Ch 22:3 And David prepared iron in abundance for the nails for the doors of the gates, and for the joinings; and brass in abundance without weight;
1Ch 22:4 Also cedar trees in abundance: for the Zidonians and they of Tyre brought much cedar wood to David.
1Ch 22:5 And David said, Solomon my son is young and tender, and the house that is to be built for the LORD must be exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory throughout all countries: I will therefore now make preparation for it. So David prepared abundantly before his death.

Ezr 6:5 And also let the golden and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which is at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which is at Jerusalem, every one to his place, and place them in the house of God.......
Ezr 6:11 Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this.
Ezr 6:12 And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-18-2005, 12:48 PM
My friend, Isaiah 42 prophecy is in no way referin' to Israel 'cause Israel was not bestowed with the universal leadership and Divine guidance to govern the affairs of the world. Israel was not sent to the Gentiles. You might want to be more careful, because Israel was bestowed with universal leadership in the fact that they are supposed to be a "Light unto the nations"! Israel WAS ESSENCIALLY sent to the gentiles, to set an example of righteousness!
"I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations." Isaiah 42:6
As it is written back in Genesis 18:
" 20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.
21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year.""

kadafi
03-18-2005, 04:46 PM
Greetings Kadafi. I really need to respond to this statement. The second part of it is totally correct. In the Old Testament, the 'house of my glory, always refers to the Temple on Mount Zion. I will only cite two passages in support - Peace!

Let's examine Isaiah chapter 60:

060:001 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 060:002 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 060:003 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 060:004 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 060:005 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 060:006 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. 060:007 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 060:008 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 060:009 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. 060:010 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. 060:011 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. 060:012 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. 060:013 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. 060:014 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 060:015 Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. 060:016 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 060:017 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. 060:018 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. 060:019 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. 060:020 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. 060:021 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. 060:022 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

Here, the House of Glory is mentioned which is the exact literal translation of the term Baitul Haraam which is used in the Qur'an for the Ka'bah.


In Revelations 3:12-13 we read “003:012 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.” 003:013 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The New Jerusalem is Ka’abah! The new name of Allaah that was not known to the people of Arabia was “Rahman” which shot to prominence by means of Islaam only. Descending of New Jerusalem from Heaven means that Divine Order to make the Ka’abah, the new Qibla. Glorious Qur’aan also point to it in the following words:

Qur’aan 2:144! Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's (SAW) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Harâm (at Makkah). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction. Certainly, the people who were given the Scriptures (i.e. Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka'bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord. And Allâh is not unaware of what they do.

In Psalms chapter 84 we read:

084:004 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah. 084:005 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. 084:006 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.


Gist

1.The verse 4 says that there is one house of Allaah in which people are auspicious who are always busy in reciting the name of Allaah and His praise.

2.The verse 5 describes the source of strength and respect, without any effect of worldly matters on these people.

3.The name of the valley is Baca (Makkah) the inhabitants have constructed a well (pointing to the well or fountain of ZamZam).

4.The people who are mentioned dwelling in the House of Allaah are Ismaeel (A.S.) and the Ishmaelites.

Glorious Qur’aan, (3:96) says!

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and guidance for Al-'Alamîn (the mankind and jinns). I'd also like to point out some interestin' passages.

Therefore thy gates shall be open continually

The gates of the Ka'bah is open continiously nights and day and never closed for prayers.

[i]because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee."

Within DECADES, Islam inhabitated 1/3 of the known world.

kadafi
03-18-2005, 04:47 PM
You might want to be more careful, because Israel was bestowed with universal leadership in the fact that they are supposed to be a "Light unto the nations"! Israel WAS ESSENCIALLY sent to the gentiles, to set an example of righteousness!
"I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations." Isaiah 42:6
As it is written back in Genesis 18:
" 20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.
21.But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."" Peace,

Despite the fact that you quoted the passages that I primary pointed were referrin' to the prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him); I'll still address it.

Firstly, that passage:
"I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations (Gentiles)."

is not referrin' to Israel 'cause accordin' to Isaiah 42:18; Israel is a blinded servant:

"Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?
Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not."

Now, how on earth can a blinded servant who doesn't understand give light?

If he can't understand, how can he lead others to the path of light. Furthermore, the scripture also states that knowledge was taken away from the Children of Israel and they were wanderin' in spiritual darkness.

Isaiah 6:9-10 "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

Isaiah 29:13-14 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."

So now it's clear-cut that Israel is the blinded servant and the other servant who is bein' prophecised is Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The qualities mentioned in those passages refer to him only.

Let's examine the same passage again but this time, discuss how it applies to the Prophet.

“and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles”

O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad) with the truth from your Lord. So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to Allâh belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And Allâh is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise (An-Nisaa:170)

O mankind! Verily, there has come to you a convincing proof (Prophet Muhammad( from your Lord; and We sent down to you a manifest light (this Qur’ân).(An-Nisaa:174)

They intend to put out the Light of Allâh (i.e. the Religion of Islâm, this Qur’ân, and the Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allâh will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it). (As-Saff:8)

Sinner
03-18-2005, 05:17 PM
The New Jerusalem is Ka’abah! Interesting, but the Ka'abah doesn't fit the detailed description of the New Jerusalem which fills most of chapter twenty one and some of twenty two of Revelation -

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

The city is in a shape of a cube, about 1,400 miles wide, long and high, largely made up of something like transparent gold. There is nothing like it on Earth today. For a complete run-down on what it will be like - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jerusalm.htm

SpaceFalcon2001
03-18-2005, 08:38 PM
They intend to put out the Light of Allâh (i.e. the Religion of Islâm, this Qur’ân, and the Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allâh will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it). (As-Saff:8) Interesting how this passage is clearly mistaken. It was long established that the covenant that HaShem gave to Moses, was not only with Israel forever, but unbreakable and perfect!
Isaiah 2:2 It will happen in the end of days: The Mountain of the Temple of HASHEM will be firmly established as the head of the mountains, and it will be exalted above the hills, and all the nations will stream to it. [3] Many peoples will go and say: ‘Come, let us go up to the Mountain of HASHEM, to the Temple of the G-d of Jacob, and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths.’ For from Zion will the Torah come forth, and the word of HASHEM from Jerusalem.

Devarim 6 6.And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart. 7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes. 9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

Psalm 119:44. And I shall keep Your Torah constantly, forever and ever.

In fact, your own Quran even declares that the Jewish people ARE the guiding light of the nations:

[4:32] And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamîn (mankind, and jinns) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.

[32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

[32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-18-2005, 11:30 PM
In fact, your own Quran even declares that the Jewish people ARE the guiding light of the nations:
Not quite my friend! It says that they WERE, before they betrayed their covenant with God and disbelieved in His promised messenger.


[4:32] And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamîn (mankind, and jinns) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.
:confused:
4:32 And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things.



[32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

[32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

:confused: Another altered verse?


32:23 We did indeed AFORETIME give the Book to Moses: be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee): and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.

32:24 And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, SO LONG AS they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

So the Children of Israel were favoured ONLY while they obeyed Him, just like any other nation. God's favour does not rest on a particular group or race, but rather with those who are pious.

:w:

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-18-2005, 11:59 PM
Devarim 7:11-13
Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

IF you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, THEN the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.

He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land-your grain, new wine and oil-the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you


God tell us in Devarim that His love is conditional. He only favours people as long as they keep their covenant with Him. It is not a permanent favour. Only righteousness brings people in God's favour, not ethnicity.

yoshiyahu
03-20-2005, 01:33 AM
Devarim 7:11-13
Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

IF you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, THEN the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.

He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land-your grain, new wine and oil-the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you


God tell us in Devarim that His love is conditional. He only favours people as long as they keep their covenant with Him. It is not a permanent favour. Only righteousness brings people in God's favour, not ethnicity.


The blessings of the Covenant are conditional upon obedience. However, these commands are required forever upon Jews as inidicated in many other verses. Those Jews who do follow the Torah merit the blessings, while those who do not merit the curses.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-20-2005, 01:50 AM
God tell us in Devarim that His love is conditional. He only favours people as long as they keep their covenant with Him. It is not a permanent favour. Only righteousness brings people in God's favour, not ethnicity. I have told you before, HaShem only favours those who are GOOD. We just have a different way of aquiring favour that is permanent and unchangable, and when we are good inspires others to be good. That is also permanent and unchangable.

yoshiyahu
03-21-2005, 06:40 AM
To expand on what I said earlier....

Jeremiah 31:34-35. So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name. If these laws depart from before Me, says the Lord, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time.

These laws are still in effect, as a casual visit to the beach shows ;)

Jeremiah 31:36 So said the Lord: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the Lord.

No one yet has been able to measure the universe yet.

That being said, no Jew (one who does not follow the Mitzvot) inherits the blessings of the Torah unless he or she observes it.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-21-2005, 08:40 PM
The blessings of the Covenant are conditional upon obedience. However, these commands are required forever upon Jews as inidicated in many other verses. Those Jews who do follow the Torah merit the blessings, while those who do not merit the curses.

Agreed. And I feel that is a universal policy, not specific to the Jews.

:w:

SpaceFalcon2001
03-21-2005, 10:29 PM
Agreed. And I feel that is a universal policy, not specific to the Jews. There is a universal policy, but the Torah was handed specifically to the Jews, with the obligation to teach it to their children.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-21-2005, 10:51 PM
And the gentiles must follow their whims to find the truth? ???

SpaceFalcon2001
03-21-2005, 11:38 PM
And the gentiles must follow their whims to find the truth? ??? Come now Ansar, the only important truth is that there is one God (which some Gentiles will believe, and others will not. It is up to Jews and Muslims (and everyone else) to inspire that belief in others.

There once was a man who came to Rabbi Hillel and said, if you can teach me the entire torah while I stand on one foot, I will become a Jew, and Hillel said, "What is hateful to you, do not do to anyone else, that is the entire Torah, the rest is just commentary, now go study".

Surely, the Gentile nations do not require the Torah to learn that.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-21-2005, 11:43 PM
Yes, the basic truths I agree. But what about the laws of Noahide?

SpaceFalcon2001
03-21-2005, 11:50 PM
Yes, the basic truths I agree. But what about the laws of Noahide? What about them? They are simply basic laws that should be followed for a Gentile to truly be righteous.

I don't think you should have a problem with it, unless you think that idolatry and sexual deviancy and theft and others should be permitted to non-Jews?

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-22-2005, 04:24 AM
Well, in a society that is largely atheistic, and has many immoral issues as well, what would you expect an individual to research to come to the truth?

None of the polytheistic books/religions for sure. So what book do they have to guide them? In a sense, don't they just have to rely on instict? And as we all know after dealing with these atheists in debate etc. this instinct can get very clouded at times.

:w:

SpaceFalcon2001
03-22-2005, 04:43 AM
Atheism is not a big culprit of immorality (other than the obvious sin of disbelief in HaShem). The real cause of immorality is Hedonism. The pagans of the past were hedonists, they did whatever felt good, not caring if it hurt anyone else. Who is a hedonist? Dictators, controlling rulers, abusive kings, people who always have to get their way...

What is basic instinct? We are human, and as was granted adam and eve after they ate of the forbidden fruit, we can tell the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. To not do that which is hateful to yourself, to others, IS our essencial instinct. We always know what we should do at our deepest levels. Whether a person chooses to follow such depends on which philosophy they adopt. Which philosophy they adopt depends on how they were raised by their parents. If they are brought up under the Noachide laws, or equivilent, they will have a firm grasp on that which is right, and will not succumb to hedonism. If they do not believe in a specific doctarine, the risk of hedonism grows, but that doesn't break down the last barrier. Only when they become selfish, self centered, or place themselves above everyone else, only THEN do we have that which is Hedonistic. Atheism, the implication that one cannot prove the existance of HaShem, doesn't lead to immorality until they adopt such principles.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-31-2005, 03:19 AM
Interesting, i found another explanation on the topic.....

Song of Songs 5 – “Such is my Beloved…”
As I mentioned earlier in the present chapter, we can answer the Christian’s request for the name “Muhammad” spelled out in his Bible. Believe me when I tell you that the satisfaction you will receive from quoting this verse (Songs 5:16) to Christians in its original Hebrew will make your entire study of comparative religion worthwhile. Not only is the name of God’s Beloved given, but a perfect physical description as well! Here is the passage in its entirety:
“1:5) I am dark, but lovely, O daughters of Jerusalem, like the tents of Kedar, like the curtains of Solomon …5:10) My beloved is white and ruddy (red), chief among ten thousand. 11) His head is like the finest gold; his locks are wavy, and black as a raven. 12) His eyes are like doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. 13) His cheeks are like a bed of spices, banks of scented herbs. His lips are lilies, dripping liquid myrrh. 14) His hands are rods of gold set with beryl. His body is carved ivory inlaid with sapphires. 15) His legs are pillars of marble set on bases of fine gold. His countenance is like Lebanon, excellent as the cedars. 16) His mouth is most sweet, yes, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.” – Song of Songs 1:5, 5:10-16.
Verse 16 transliterated reads: Hiko mamtaqim vi kollo Muhammadim, zay dudee viza hera’ee, benot Yerushallam. When the royal plural “im” is removed from the word “Muhammadim,” you are left with “Muhammad.”- And Muhammad is the Messenger of God! This word is derived from an archaic Semitic tri-literal root known as hemed (hmd). The word Hamad (verb) means: to praise, glorify, exalt, covet, love. The Arabic is spelled: Meem, Ha, Meem, Dal; The Hebrew spelling is identical: Mem, Cha, Mem, Dalet. All Christian translations of the Bible render this word literally rather than recognizing it as the actual name of God’s Beloved (Habibullah). “Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from God? But God is not unmindful of what ye do” (Qur’an 2:140). The verse should read: “His mouth is most sweet, yes, he is Muhammad. This is my beloved, and he is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.”
In his book Portrait of Human Perfection, Shaykh Ahmad Muhammad Al-Hawfi provides us with a description of the Prophet based on the sound ahadith (traditions) that exactly matches with the description given in this passage. See for yourself.
• “I am dark, but lovely…like the tents of Kedar… My beloved is white and ruddy (red)…” (Songs 1:5, 5:10). In a hadith of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), he described the Prophet as having the most beautiful complexion which was neither pure white nor dark. Imam Ahmad said, “It was a brown bordering on white.” ‘Ali described him with the words, “He was white mixed with red.”
• “His head is like the finest gold; his locks are wavy, and black as a raven” (Songs 5:11). At-Tirmidhi transmitted that ‘Ali said, “The Messenger of Allah had a large head and beard.” Anas said, “He had (black) wavy hair which was neither straight nor curly.”
• “His eyes are like doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set” (Songs 5:12). In one hadith, it states that “he had redness in the black of his eyes.” In another variant, “He had black eyes even without wearing kohl (antimony).” Al-Bayhqai related from ‘Ali, “The Messenger of Allah had large eyes and long lashes, and his eyes were mixed with red.”
• “His cheeks are like a bed of spices, banks of scented herbs. His lips are lilies, dripping liquid myrrh. His hands are rods of gold set with beryl. His body is carved ivory inlaid with sapphires” (Songs 5:13-14). In a hadith found in al-Bukhari, the transmitter said, “I took his hand and placed it on my face. It was cooler than snow and had a more pleasant fragrance than musk.” Anas said, “My hand did not touch any brocade or silk or anything softer than the hand of the Messenger of Allah.” Abu Ya’la and al-Bazzar related with a sound isnaad (chain of narration) from Anas: “When the Messenger of Allah passed through the streets of Medina, the fragrance of musk could be smelt coming from him and it could be said, ‘The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, has passed this way.’”
• “His legs are pillars of marble set on bases of fine gold. His countenance is like Lebanon, excellent as the cedars” (Songs 5:15). In a hadith of A’isha in Abu Khaythama we find, “None of the people with him were called tall without the Messenger of Allah seeming taller then them. If there were two tall men at his side, he seemed taller than them. But when he left them, they were called tall and the Messenger of Allah was called medium.”


:w:

SpaceFalcon2001
03-31-2005, 04:10 AM
Ignoring the fact that Solomen was not a prophet, this is a love poem between him and a women.

He asks: 9. "What is your beloved more than another beloved, O fairest of women? What is your beloved more than another beloved, that you have so adjured us?"

She responds: 10. "My beloved is white and ruddy, surrounded by myriads.

To read the commentary on this section, look here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16449&showrashi=true

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-31-2005, 04:39 AM
Ignoring the fact that Solomen was not a prophet,
That's your opinion.

this is a love poem between him and a women.
I don't know how you can conlude that, especially with the Rashi commentary. It refers to many events that are outside of the context of the discussion, like Judgement day etc.

eg.

[10] My beloved is white to whiten my iniquities. Clear and white; when He appeared at Sinai, He appeared as an old man, teaching instructions, and so, when He sits in judgment (Dan. 7:9): “His garment was like white snow, and the hair of His head was like clean wool.”

And how do you conclude that Solomon is speaking to some woman? And who do you think the 'beloved' refers to?


He asks: 9. "What is your beloved more than another beloved, O fairest of women? What is your beloved more than another beloved, that you have so adjured us?"

She responds: 10. "My beloved is white and ruddy, surrounded by myriads.
To me it looks like he is speaking both verses 9 & 10. Like a teacher, he asks the daughters of jerusalem, the fairest of women, who shall be their beloved. Then he responds himself and teaches them, and makes the prophecy.

Also, your understanding of the context is not supported anywhere in the commentary of Rashi. :confused:

Sinner
03-31-2005, 05:25 AM
Sigh....if you add this and drop that, reverse this, combine that, sooner or later someone could come up with "hot dogs" in the Bible as well.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-31-2005, 05:40 AM
Sigh....if you add this and drop that, reverse this, combine that, sooner or later someone could come up with "hot dogs" in the Bible as well.

As anyone who reads the explanation carefully can see, this is not the case. There's no 'add' this or 'drop' that. Everything has been logically analyzed.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-31-2005, 05:53 AM
That's your opinion. No, that's fact. Kings weren't prophets, they couldn't speak for or interpret the will of HaShem, which is why they needed prophets to speak to HaShem FOR them. Why have someone else speak to HaShem if you could do it yourself?

I don't know how you can conlude that, especially with the Rashi commentary. The traditional understanding is usually as I said. The entire Song of Songs is one big love poem. We use verses from it during marriages. Rashi takes it a little more prophetically (Not because Solomen himself was a prophet but because he takes the position that the entire Tanach was given at the time of the Torah).

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-31-2005, 08:23 PM
No, that's fact. Kings weren't prophets,
Yes, there were Prophet Kings, and Solomon was an excellent example. In a way, Prophet Moses was the King of his people as well. he certainly was a statesman.

27:16 And Solomon inherited (the prophethood of) David. He said: "O mankind! We have been taught the language of birds, and on us have been bestowed all things. This, verily, is an evident grace (from Allah)."

We have revealed to you, just as We revealed to Noah and the Prophets who came after him. And We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Tribes, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And We gave David the Zabur. (Qur'an, 4:163)


The traditional understanding is usually as I said.
Who's to say it's the correct one? Whichever one is more logical should be accepted, no?


Rashi takes it a little more prophetically
I noticed that, and for that reason you cannot blame Muslims for following the methdology of your greatest commentators.

:w:

Preacher
07-09-2005, 11:08 PM
Biblical Prophecies about the Islam, Qur'an, Ka'ba, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and more.


:sl:

The sole purpose of this thread is to present as many prophecies as possible about the advent of Islam, superiority of Ka'ba, revelation of Qur'an, and arrival of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) from the Bible (OT & NT). I like to see others Muslim brothers and sisters contribute to this thread as much as possible.

Here are seven prophecies (link) from the New Testament.


New Testament Prophecies about Islam & Muhammad (SAW)
http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/ntp.htm

:w:
Preacher

Bittersteel
07-10-2005, 08:09 AM
Some Christians fiercely refute the claim by Muslims that Islam and Mohammad(PBUH) was prophesied by Jesus or Moses(Peace be upon them all).

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-10-2005, 01:41 PM
And we refute them back. ;)

:w:

Preacher
07-10-2005, 04:17 PM
Some Christians fiercely refute the claim by Muslims that Islam and Mohammad(PBUH) was prophesied by Jesus or Moses(Peace be upon them all).
:sl:

I have a great deal of trouble with your choice of words and with your phraseology, which I suspect to be very deliberate. Because you don’t seem to be ignorant of English language, rather you write better than this author (me).

If you have your own deep seated/rooted internal distrust and weak Iman, than I suggest that you acquire some true knowledge of Deen rather wasting time on Internet.

Christians have never been able to refute anything since last 1425 years. It is rather your erroneous belief. Christians have always denied with plain stupidity and ignorance, because they know they are standing on quicksand. Thus, mere denial does not constitutes "refutation", neither they are same nor interchangable.

Why don't you bring Christian/s here who allegedly fiercely refute and I am willing to take them on, here.Isn't seeing is the believing?

How Christians argue and debate is a matter of fraud and forgery. A moderator of another Muslim forum (WhyIslam.org) requested me to help him and few Muslims out at "Catholic Discussion Forum" where 4/5 Muslims were outnumbered and overwhelmed by Christians' onslaught with lies. I joined the Catholic forum and Allah is my witness that I impeached each and every id in two days and also challenged them on many issues including Mubahala.

Guess what your Christian heroes did? They quietly banned me and I cannot log on there. By the way I was extra careful for not violating any forum's rule/s because I knew how how they play these games.

So go ahead bring the fierce Christian refuter and I will take him on these issues?
Also, may I ask that why you always come in opposition of what Muslims' post, which side you are on? Why did you speak when even Christians in this forum didn't dare to make any assertion or claim?

:w:
Preacher

Preacher
07-10-2005, 04:32 PM
:sl:

Christians make a big deal out of "prophecies" and "miracles" and their whole arguments and claims are based on alleged prophecy/ies and miracle/s' Then to discredit Islam, Christians love to put forward the challenge that Muhammad (SAW) did not performed any miracles, thus he is a false prophet etcetera.

The irony of Christian claim is that their Bible is full of prophecies about Muhammad (SAW) including the prophecies of his miracles. But their sheer ignorance of their own scripture has blinded these Christians.

Let me prove the miracles of Muhammad (SAW) from Christian Bible and Christian sources:

Bible Foretold Muhammad’s Miracles!
http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/ot11.htm

Al-Isra (The night journey) with proof from Christian sources.
http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/isra.htm

Abdul Aziz, can you bring a Christian who can fiercely refute these?

:w:
Preacher

Bittersteel
07-10-2005, 04:58 PM
Preacher I wanted to say that Christians such as Hawk in UI forums refused to accept that Mohammad(PBUH) was prophesied in the Bible.I never said they were correct.
Maybe I used the wrong words in my post.I am bad in english I can't help it.

by the way,Are you a member of Understanding Islam forum?If not please join it.

Preacher
07-10-2005, 06:19 PM
Preacher I wanted to say that Christians such as Hawk in UI forums refused to accept that Mohammad(PBUH) was prophesied in the Bible.I never said they were correct.
Maybe I used the wrong words in my post.I am bad in english I can't help it.

by the way,Are you a member of Understanding Islam forum?If not please join it.
:sl:
First let me quote what you exactly posted earlier, which is as follows:

Some Christians fiercely refute the claim by Muslims that Islam and Mohammad(PBUH) was prophesied by Jesus or Moses(Peace be upon them all).

So refute means according to the dictionary:

re·fute (r¹-fy›t“) tr.v. re·fut·ed, re·fut·ing, re·futes. 1. To prove to be false or erroneous; overthrow by argument or proof: refute testimony. 2. To deny the accuracy or truth of: refuted the results of the poll. [Latin ref¿t³re. See bhau- below.] --re·fut”a·bil“i·ty (r¹-fy›”t…-b¹l“¹-t¶, rµf“y…-t…-) n. --re·fut“a·ble (r¹-fy›“t…-b…l, rµf“y…-t…-) adj. --re·fut“a·bly adv. --re·fut“er n.

Can you see the fallacy and damaging implication of your statement?

Now we will stick to the issue rather changing it, which I have underlined in the quote above. I don't concern with what Christians say or think? I don't think that UI is a Muslim forum, and I am not a member of that forum.

Why don't you bring that Hawk and other Hawks here and I will debate with them. I would prefer to promote this forum and increase the membership of this forum; instead of chasing some ignoramuses'.

:w:
Preacher

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-10-2005, 07:34 PM
:sl:
I have refuted hawk for months. He has been chased from forum to forum. All he does nowadays is throw articles (which is why he was subsequently banned from this forum). Every single one of his lies has been refuted. Currently I had the last response to him and he has been hiding ever since (he hasn't posted there for weeks):
Our short debate (http://forums.understanding-islam.org/community/showthread.php?p=37242#post37242)

These guys pretend to be hawks, but they're nothing more than monkeys. You shouldn't take them so seriously.

:w:

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-10-2005, 07:42 PM
:sl:
Threads merged.

For a related thread, please see the following:
Prophecy of Deuteronomy 18 (http://islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1213)

:w:

Bittersteel
07-10-2005, 09:50 PM
Can you see the fallacy and damaging implication of your statement?
Yes I made a mistake.I uh made a some sorta confusion between the word refute and refuse....hehe.......told you I am not good at english.........

I think we should go on discuss about the topic.And never mind about my post.

Khattab
07-23-2005, 11:51 PM
The present barren period of classical scholarship, together with the increasing paucity of our knowledge of ancient languages, has crippled modern taste in its efforts to appreciate any such attempts as I intend to make in that direction. The following pages have produced a series of most able articles from the Rev. Professor 'Abdu 'l-Ahad Dawud, but I wonder if there are many, even among the hierarchy of the Christian Church, who could follow the erudite exposition of the learned Professor. All the more do I wonder when he seeks to carry his readers into a labyrinth of languages, dead and done with thousands of years ago. What about Aramaic, when very few even among the Clergy are able to understand the Vulgate and the original Greek version of the New Testament? More especially when our researches are based simply upon Greek and Latin etymology! Whatever may be the value of such dissertations in the eye's of others we, nowadays, are absolutely incapable of appreciating them from the angle of erudition; for the oracular ambiguity attached to the prophetic utter- ances to which I allude makes them elastic enough to cover any case. The "least" in the prophecy of St. John the Baptist may not be the son of Mary, though he was looked upon as such contemptuously by his own tribe. The Holy Carpenter came from humble parentage. He was shouted down, mocked and discredited; he was belittled and made to appear the "least" in the public estimation by the Scribes and Pharisees. The excess of zeal displayed by his followers in the second and third centuries A.D., which was ever prone to jump at anything in the form of a prophecy in the Bible, would naturally induce them to believe that their Lord was the person alluded to by the Baptist.

However, there is another difficulty in the way. How can a person rely on the testimony of a book admittedly filled with folk-lore? The genuineness of the Bible has univer- sally been questioned. Without going into the question of its genuineness, we may at least say that we cannot depend on its statements concerning Jesus and his miracles. Some even go so far as to assert that his existence as an historical person is questionable, and that on the authority of the Gospels it would be dangerous to arrive at any apparently safe conclusion in this matter. A Christian of the Funda- mentalist type cannot well say anything against my statement of the case. If "stray sentences" and detached words in the Old Testament can be singled out by synoptic writers as applicable to Jesus, the comments of the learned writer of these erudite and absorbing articles must command every respect and appreciation even from the Clergy. I write in the same strain, but I have tried to base my arguments on portions of the Bible which hardly allow of any linguistic dispute. I would not go to Latin, Greek, or Aramaic, for that would be useless: I just give the following quotation in the very words of the Revised Version as published by the British and Foreign Bible Society.

We read the following words in the Book of Deuteronomy chapter xviii. verse 18: "I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth." If these words do not apply to Prophet Muhammad, they still remain unfulfilled. Prophet Jesus himself never claimed to be the Prophet alluded to. Even his disciples were of the same opinion: they looked to the second coming of Jesus for the fulfillment of the prophecy. So far it is undisputed that the first coming of Jesus was not the advent of the "prophet like unto thee," and his second advent can hardly fulfill the words. Jesus, as is believed by his Church, will appear as a Judge and not as a law-giver; but the promised one has to come with a "fiery law" in "his right hand."

In ascertaining the personality of the promised prophet the other prophecy of Moses is, however, very helpful where it speaks of the shining forth of God from Paran, the mountain of Mecca. The words in the Book of Deuteronomy, chapter xxxiii. verse 2, run as follows: "The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints; from his right hand went a fiery law for them."

In these words the Lord has been compared with the sun. He comes from Sinai, he rises from Seir, but he shines in his full glory from Paran, where he had to appear with ten thousands of saints with a fiery law in his right hand. None of the Israelites, including Jesus, had anything to do with Paran. Hagar, with her son Ishmael, wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba, who afterwards dwelt in the wilder- ness of Paran (Gen. xxi. 21). He married an Egyptian woman, and through his first-born, Kedar, gave descent to the Arabs who from that time till now are the dwellers of the wilderness of Paran. And if Prophet Muhammad admittedly on all hands traces his descent to Ishmael through Kedar and he appeared as a prophet in the wilderness of Paran and re- entered Mecca with ten thousand saints and gave a fiery law to his people, is not the prophecy above-mentioned fulfilled to its very letter?

The words of the prophecy in Habakkuk are especially noteworthy. His (the Holy One from Paran) glory covered the heavens and the earth was full of his praise. The word "praise" is very significant, as the very name Muhammad literally means "the praised one." Besides the Arabs, the inhabitants of the wilderness of Paran had also been promised a Revelation: "Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the islands. The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war, he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies" (Isaiah).

In connection with it there are two other prophecies worthy of note where references have been made to Kedar. The one runs thus in chapter 1x. of Isaiah: "Arise, shine for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee ... The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come.. All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory" (1-7). The other prophecy is again in Isaiah "The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim. The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled. For they fled from the swords and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail: And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished" Read these prophecies in Isaiah in the light of one in Deutero- nomy which speaks of the shining forth of God from Paran. If Ishmael inhabited the wilderness of Paran, where he gave birth to Kedar, who is the ancestor of the Arabs; and if the sons of Kedar had to receive revelation from God; if the flocks of Kedar had to come up with acceptance to a Divine altar to glorify "the house of my glory" where the darkness had to cover the earth for some centuries, and then that very land had to receive light from God; and if all the glory of Kedar had to fail and the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, had to diminish within a year after the one fled from the swords and from the bent bows - the Holy One from Paran (Habakkuk iii 3 ) is no one else than Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad is the holy offspring of Ishmael through Kedar, who settled in the wilderness of Paran. Muhammad is the only Prophet through whom the Arabs received revelation at the time when the darkness had covered the earth. Through him God shone from Paran, and Mecca is the only place where the House of God is glorified and the flocks of Kedar come with acceptance on its altar. Prophet Muhammad was persecuted by his people and had to leave Mecca. He was thirsty and fled from the drawn sword and the bent bow, and within a year after his flight the descen- dants of Kedar meet him at Badr, the place of the first battle between the Meccans and the Prophet, the children of Kedar and their number of archers diminish and all the glory of Kedar fails. If the Holy Prophet is not to be accepted as the fulfillment of all these prophecies they will still remain unfulfilled. "The house of my glory" referred to in Isaiah lX is the house of God in Mecca and not the Church of Christ as thought by Christian commentators. The flocks of Kedar, as mentioned in verse 7, have never come to the Church of Christ; and it is a fact that the villages of Kedar and their inhabitants are the only people in the whole world who have remained impenetrable to any influence of the Church of Christ. Again, the mention of 10,000 saints in Deutero- nomy xxx 3 is very significant. He (God) shined forth from Paran, and he came with 10,000 of saints. Read the whole history of the wilderness of Paran and you will find no other event but when Mecca was conquered by the Prophet. He comes with 10,000 followers from Medina and re-enters "the house of my glory." He gives the fiery law to the world, which reduced to ashes all other laws. The Comforter - the Spirit of Truth - spoken of by Prophet Jesus was no other than Prophet Muhammad himself. It cannot be taken as the Holy Ghost, as the Church theology says. "It is expe- dient for you that I go away," says Jesus, "for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart I will send him unto you." The words clearly show that the Comforter had to come after the departure of Jesus, and was not with him when he uttered these words. Are we to pre- sume that Jesus was devoid of the Holy Ghost if his coming was conditional on the going of Jesus: besides, the way in which Jesus describes him makes him a human being, not a ghost. "He shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear that he shall speak." Should we presume that the Holy Ghost and God are two distinct entities and that the Holy Ghost speaks of himself and also what he hears from God? The words of Jesus clearly refer to some messenger from God. He calls him the Spirit of Truth, and so the Qur'an speaks of Prophet Muhammad, "No, indeed, he has brought the truth, and confirmed the Messengers." Ch.37:37

yoshiyahu
07-29-2005, 02:02 AM
Calling something a refutation does not neccessarily mean you agree with it. There are many refutations of various ideas of the net. Some that "refute" Creationism. Others that "refute" Evolution. All of them are refutations, doesn't mean they're all right.

yoshiyahu
07-29-2005, 02:03 AM
Perhaps it would be better to use the word "Rebuttal"

scared one
08-07-2005, 06:30 PM
try this muhammad.net - all replies are welcome

http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/index.htm

scared one
08-07-2005, 06:40 PM
does this answer the question of whether or not the bible or people of the book accept the prophet muhammad(peace be upon him)?

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