"No Atheists In Fox Holes"

[Pygoscelis]

I ran across this article today, from this past November, in which an atheist national gaurdsman in the US resigned because of bigoted statements made by his generals which were refused to be recanted.

The article is here

http://www.americanchronicle.com/art...rticleID=17380

One of the offensive statements, which I rarely hear myself but I've heard is prominent in the USA is that "there are no atheists in foxholes", essentially calling atheists liars or cowards. The statement is both offensive and incorrect. Numerous atheist soldiers do exist and have written the military and launched complaints but the are always dismissed out of hand.

[Snowflake]

Chaplain Scott McCammon said “You can know how to dig a foxhole, but unless you are spiritually fit, you won't have the courage to stick your head out of the hole”. Chaplain Eric Albertson said “commanders recognize that spiritually fit soldiers are better fighters, and can bring a spirit of determination to the mission that is courageous and heroic”.

Humiliation is theirs who do not bow to the Creator in humility.

[Trumble]

" 'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn’t an argument against atheism, it’s an argument against foxholes."
James Morrow

[dougmusr]

One of the offensive statements, which I rarely hear myself but I've heard is prominent in the USA is that "there are no atheists in foxholes", essentially calling atheists liars or cowards. The statement is both offensive and incorrect. Numerous atheist soldiers do exist and have written the military and launched complaints but the are always dismissed out of hand.

This quote doesn't say athiests avoid foxholes out of cowardice. It is just saying that when a person goes through a close call with death, it tends to cause introspection. Do you think there have been athiests that have been in fox holes with fellow soldiers and been the only one to come out of the experience alive. Do you think they have ever asked why me?

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[Pygoscelis]

This quote doesn't say athiests avoid foxholes out of cowardice. It is just saying that when a person goes through a close call with death, it tends to cause introspection.

Yes that is one possible meaning, and the one that calls them liars. Dozens of atheist soldiers who have been in close combat, even ones who were in actual foxholes have spoken up and complained to the military leadership about this offensive statement. It is factually untrue that there are no atheists in foxholes.

[Keltoi]

It is just another of those bumber sticker statements that sound good and little else. Of course there are athiests in foxholes.

[Woodrow]

The statement has little to do with religion or atheism. It is a reflection that war fare is a terrifying experience and a person will grasp at anything for comfort. You will also hear the term "fox hole convert" which designates a person who is only religious in times of danger and has no thoughts of prayer at any other time.

As Keltoi said, it is good bumper sticker material.

I've also heard it variations:

There are no athiests ....

....in burning buildings

...at the end of a hangmans noose

....drowning at sea

....in front of a firing squad

....going into the operating room

[glo]

This thread reminds me of the film 'Touching the Void' (2003), which recounts the true story of Joe Simpson's and Simon Yates' disastrous and near fatal attempt to climb the Siula Grande in the Peruvian Andes in 1985.
Joe Simpson fell down a deep crevasse and broke his leg.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2003/11/2...3_review.shtml

Alone, without food and despite his injuries he managed to make his way out of the mountain and eventually back to safety.

In the film (which is based closely on his own book) Joe recalls lying in the dark, hungry and in pain and despair, contemplating God and how he would be saved.
In the end he came to the conclusion that if anybody was going to get him out of this situation, it was he himself. And he started making his way against all odds.
There was an athiest in this foxhole, I'm afraid! :muddlehea

I must admit that it truly amazed me how anybody could be in such dire need and not call out to God! But apparently he didn't ...

peace

[Keltoi]

With statements like this it is better to take them as a symbolic philosophical argument, and not a literal statement of fact.

[syilla]

" 'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn’t an argument against atheism, it’s an argument against foxholes."
James Morrow

:giggling: :giggling: :giggling:

[Pygoscelis]

With statements like this it is better to take them as a symbolic philosophical argument, and not a literal statement of fact.

But a symbolic statement of what? That deperate people turn to the irrational? Well I suppose if you phrased it that way it would be offensive in the opposite direction. But isn't that the point?

[Erundur]

I ran across this article today, from this past November, in which an atheist national gaurdsman in the US resigned because of bigoted statements made by his generals which were refused to be recanted.

The article is here

http://www.americanchronicle.com/art...rticleID=17380

One of the offensive statements, which I rarely hear myself but I've heard is prominent in the USA is that "there are no atheists in foxholes", essentially calling atheists liars or cowards. The statement is both offensive and incorrect. Numerous atheist soldiers do exist and have written the military and launched complaints but the are always dismissed out of hand.

:salamext:
I thought it meant as an atheist starting to believe in a God when going into a foxhole, kinda like "there is no such things as atheists on a turbulent flight"

:sl:

[Pygoscelis]

:salamext:
I thought it meant as an atheist starting to believe in a God when going into a foxhole, kinda like "there is no such things as atheists on a turbulent flight"

:sl:

But if that is the meaning, then it isn't true, as thousands of atheist soldiers have attested.

[Woodrow]

I have always viewed that statement as being offensive to people who believe in God(swt) as it meant nobody will bother praying unless they are in grave danger and see no other way out.

[Pygoscelis]

It certainly does portray God as a crutch instead of anything positive. So I can see why theists would find it offensive as well as athiests. I'm suprised theists say it so often.

[glo]

I don't know if I find it offensive ...

When you read or listen to people how they became believers, it seems pretty evident that many people do turn to God when they are in desperate need (i.e. 'in a fox hole'). Often it id their experience during that episode of their lives which leads to a real and lasting belief in God.

Having said that I spent many years of my life, merrily doing what I wanted and suddenly turning to God in prayer, when things got tough. With hindsight, I don't think I was a true follower of my faith then.
In fact, the description of 'an atheist in a fox hole' may have fitted me quite well then. I didn't fully believe in God, but still believed enough in the possibility of God to turn to him when I needed ... (if that makes sense ...)

Peace :)