Nationalism & Religiousity

[Pygoscelis]

I've always thought there may be some sort of connection between religiousity and nationalism, but I could never say for sure. When I run into a nationalist (by that I mean a severe flag waving nutter who values their citizens lives over the mere interests of other peoples) they are invariably also religious.

But, due to geographic and historical happenstance they also happen to be from the USA.

Now the "God Bless America" thread has given me some counter evidence, as people here, muslims, have not responded to that thread as a nationalist would. The mere mention of the phrase without a glowing endrosement will get you banned from some nationalist boards.

Now there is also the factor that America is considered the "Great Satan" and has done many nasty things to Islamic lands.

So is there any connection between nationalism and religiousity? Is what I see in the US re their nationalism being intertwined with religiousity just a quirk of US culture? Is what I see in the God Bless America thread (or more what I don't see there - rabid nationalism, didn't even get a "america sucks, my country is great" response) just because of America's history with Islam?

Did Romans at the height of their empire go ultra fundamentalist with religion? Did the English Empire?

Are the mechanisms behind staunch fundamentalism and staunch nationalism the same, rigid and blind adherence to the belief that your way or your life is superior?

Thoughts?

[rav]

On the contrary, many ultra religious reject secularism and nationalism.

[dougmusr]

On the contrary, many ultra religious reject secularism and nationalism.

Would it be possible for a Jewish ultra religious individual to envision a world in which Israel did not exist?

[rav]

Would it be possible for a Jewish ultra religious individual to envision a world in which Israel did not exist?

Possibly. Are you speaking of the modern state of Israel? The thing is that Israel or "Am Yisroel" the "nation of israel" is not a country. It is the Jewish people. Israel the country is a secular one, and many religious believe it is to secular and it is in reality not a Jewish state, but a state of majority Jews.

The land of Israel is the holiest there is, and when the Moshiach comes, it will be the land of the Jews as a Jewish state, but currently there is nothing holy about the goverment. Under Jewish law however, Jewish life, and all life in reality is sacred, therefore, as long as Israel protects Jewish life, it could be considered sacred. If 5.8 million Jews of Israel were under Arab control, how safe would they be? How safe would our holy sites be?

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[Goku]

Possibly. Are you speaking of the modern state of Israel? The thing is that Israel or "Am Yisroel" the "nation of israel" is not a country. It is the Jewish people. Israel the country is a secular one, and many religious believe it is to secular and it is in reality not a Jewish state, but a state of majority Jews.

The land of Israel is the holiest there is, and when the Moshiach comes, it will be the land of the Jews as a Jewish state, but currently there is nothing holy about the goverment. Under Jewish law however, Jewish life, and all life in reality is sacred, therefore, as long as Israel protects Jewish life, it could be considered sacred. If 5.8 million Jews of Israel were under Arab control, how safe would they be? How safe would our holy sites be?

Pretty safe, they've been so for centuries under Arab Muslim rule. Tensions have been rather high recently because of land splits but once its resolved Palestinians and Israelis will hopefully live in peace side by side.

[waldolicous]

Well, Christians in the U.S. religiously accept their countries "authority" as being given from God. Rationally, though, since the U.S. is a democracy the highest politicians are actually chosen by majority vote by the people.

I cannot say that religion causes nationalism, because people are able to interpret their religion however they want, even if their religion directly teaches them to be nationalists, they can interpret it as not.

Overall, though, the U.S. is under God, not under man. There is no reason not to be a nationalists for that reason alone.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

Grouping the Muslims on tribalistic lines is clearly forbidden. It is
narrated by Abu Da'wud that the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,

"He is not one us who calls for `Asabiyyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights for `Asabiyyah or who dies for `Asabiyyah."And in another Hadith, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) referring to
nationalism, racism, and patriotism said:

"Leave it, it is rotten." [Muslim and Bukhari]


http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...sm-islam.html?

[rav]

Pretty safe, they've been so for centuries under Arab Muslim rule. Tensions have been rather high recently because of land splits but once its resolved Palestinians and Israelis will hopefully live in peace side by side.

I would have to say otherwise. Jews were not always safe under Islamic rule, and there are many instances where Jews have been persecuted in and outside the Holy Land under Islamic rule like when The Almohades conquered Córdoba in 1148, and threatened the Jewish community with the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile.

If the Holy Land was transfered under Islamic rule today, I do not believe Jews would be very safe, nor would we be aloud to conduct prayer at most of our holy sites, while Muslims are given full control over the Temple mount currently.

Hopefully tensions will go away, but currently, they are very high, and the Arab demolition of the Jewish quarter comes into my mind.

[snakelegs]

i'm not sure how real it is, but in my mind yes - nationalism and religious fanaticism do compliment each other quite well - as you mentioned, both demand blind obedience and surrender to Authority.
but like you, my viewpoint is somewhat skewed because i live in u.s. and the christian fanatics and the hyperpatriots are often one and the same. (both are pretty scary).
i know, for example, that in the case of muslims and jews - they not only are not supposed to go together, but ultra nationalism would be considered a form of idolatry.
when i was a kid it was the practice to do the lord's prayer and the pledge of allegiance in school every day. (in that order). since i was not a christian and the one seemed a continuation of the other, i didn't do either one of them. only later did i realize that they are not really connected but in my child's mind they were definitely the same.
btw, you start interesting threads, pygoscelis!

[Skillganon]

We take adherance to Nationalism as form of tribalism from the time Jahiliayah. In Islam their is place holding fervorly to such Ideology.

In Islam as some people may attribute fundemtalism to fanaticism or extremism it is misleading. In Islam one is required to believe in Islam and that mean's all of it, the fundementals, one needs to learn those and obey those. Thuse submit to those. This is sometime projected by some people as extremism or fanatacism.
Islam is of the middle path, we do not go into excess in our religion in either side of the spectrum.

Now there is also the factor that America is considered the "Great Satan" and has done many nasty things to Islamic lands.

Although lately america's (Gov) policies are wrong. I would not term america as the great satan.