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Showkat
01-25-2007, 10:05 AM
Israeli historian: Islam converts change face of Europe
Jan. 23, 2007
By ETGAR LEFKOVITS


As many as 100,000 French and British citizens have converted to Islam over the last decade, according to a new book by an Israeli historian.

The figures cited by Hebrew University Prof. Raphael Israeli in his upcoming book The Third Islamic Invasion of Europe are representative of the fast-changing face of Europe, which the Islamic history professor says is in danger of becoming "Eurabia" within half a century.

He noted that about 30 million Muslims currently live in Europe, out of a total population of 380 million., adding that with a high Muslim birthrate in Europe, the number of Muslims living in the continent is likely to double within 25 years.

Israeli also cited massive immigration and Turkey's future inclusion in the EU as the primary reasons why the face of Europe will be indelibly changed within a generation.

European concerns over a fast-growing Muslim population is at the center of opposition to Turkey's entry into the EU, he said, as the inclusion of Turkey into the EU will catapult the number of Muslims to 100 million out of a total population of 450 million.

"The sheer weight of demography will produce a situation where no Frenchman or Dutchman could be elected to parliament without the support of the Muslim minority," he said Monday in an interview with The Jerusalem Post.

"Muslims will have a more and more decisive voice in the makeup of European governments."

"With Turkey as a member of the EU, the process will be accelerated, without [Turkey] it will be slower but it will still happen," he added. Turkey has strong relations with Israel.

The historian, who has authored 19 previous books, said that Muslim political power in Europe would directly impact domestic politics, including Europe's immigration policy, with millions of additional Muslims waiting at the door to gain entry to the EU as part of "family reunification" programs.

"Every European with a right mind has every reason to be frightened," Israeli said.

The 50,000 French and 50,000 British who have converted to Islam over the last decade, including many from mixed marriages, did so for personal convictions, romanticized notions of Islam, as well as for business reasons, while others see Islam as the wave of the future at a time when Christianity is on the wane, Israeli said.

He said that Muslims converting to Christianity existed but their numbers were significantly smaller.

Israeli noted that conversions in mixed marriages worked only in one direction since a Muslim woman who marries a Christian is considered an apostate in her community, and faces physical danger.

"It is time one should wake up and realize what is happening in Europe," he concluded.
Israeli's book is due out in London in the coming months.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

Comment:

For years the Jews and the Zionist lobby has been influential within Europe and America and secured help and support for the Israeli state, now they see Muslim becoming politically active within the framework of Islam and engaging in discusisons wiht non-Muslim intellectuals and policy makers and explaining the ideology of Islam and its ruling system the Caliphate. Instead of praising the initiative of Muslims for better community cohesion and harmony via debate and discussion, this author creates more hysteria and fear with comments typical of the BNP and other racist parties.

Its quite ironic that similar things were said about Jews once upon a time no doubt this man has not learnt any lessons from the history of the Jews in Europe in the 1930s.
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Sami Zaatari
01-25-2007, 02:11 PM
very nice indeed Islam is taking over :)
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Dawud_uk
01-25-2007, 03:17 PM
100,000 in europe?

wouldnt be suprised if that many in UK alone. seems every masjid i go into isnt complete without at least 1 ginger revert brother and i am assuming there are other non ginger reverts out there as well as us ginger bearded brothers.

also need to remember that there are twice as many revert sisters than brothers in the uk, so for every brother that gets recorded in the masjid there are at least twice as many hiding out in the sisters section or at home.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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Bittersteel
01-25-2007, 03:46 PM
OMG,the Islamic Third Army is advancing towards Vienna!!!!!!!!
maybe those converts were actually government agents.
this is really funny ,you know.Europeans in our country ,Bangladesh,are saying more and more minorities should take part in the politics.if they agree with this prof then they will be showing their true faces.
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Woodrow
01-25-2007, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
100,000 in europe?

wouldnt be suprised if that many in UK alone. seems every masjid i go into isnt complete without at least 1 ginger revert brother and i am assuming there are other non ginger reverts out there as well as us ginger bearded brothers.

also need to remember that there are twice as many revert sisters than brothers in the uk, so for every brother that gets recorded in the masjid there are at least twice as many hiding out in the sisters section or at home.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
I agree, 100,000 seems to be a very low estimate. We have more then that in Texas and we are always behind the rest of the world.

I would expect the number of Reverts in Europe to be over 10,000,000.
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Dawud_uk
01-25-2007, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I agree, 100,000 seems to be a very low estimate. We have more then that in Texas and we are always behind the rest of the world.

I would expect the number of Reverts in Europe to be over 10,000,000.
hmm seems a little too many to me. that would mean there would be over 1,000,000 or there abouts in uk out of a uk population of 55,000,000 and we're not 1 out of 55, there arent even that many muslims total in uk.
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rubiesand
01-25-2007, 04:38 PM
100,000 converts over a decade?

I don't think that is much to be scared of!
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Woodrow
01-25-2007, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
hmm seems a little too many to me. that would mean there would be over 1,000,000 or there abouts in uk out of a uk population of 55,000,000 and we're not 1 out of 55, there arent even that many muslims total in uk.
At moment there are 1,631,919 Muslims in the UK.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Now it is true that the major of those will be immigrants. But, the UK is making inroads.

France and Spain both have a very large Islamic population. If I recall right France has the fastest rate of reversions in the world.

Statistics show Muslims in France count between about 5 and 6 million, which is about 10 to 12% of the French population. That is the highest percentage of Muslims in a Western European country.
Source:http://www.masnet.org/prof_community.asp?id=1585

Islam is growing in Europe much faster then here in the US. I would not be surprised if 10,000,000 reverts for all of Europe is not a very low guess.
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NobleMuslimUK
01-26-2007, 04:43 AM
The signs show, times near. its a blessing from Allah SWT, his mercy that he is calling so many towards his true path. In a time of hysteria, global warfare and widespread corruptions and evils, that sit so smugly inside todays society's.
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muslima06
01-26-2007, 05:14 AM
alhamdulillah that a lot of people are converting.it's sad to see our brothers and sister not practicing their deen but Allah will replace with them for people who are better than them.
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snakelegs
01-26-2007, 07:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Islam is growing in Europe much faster then here in the US. I would not be surprised if 10,000,000 reverts for all of Europe is not a very low guess.
wonder why it is growing faster in europe than in u.s. - is europe easier to immigrate to?
one of the side effects about 9/11 is that it got a lot of people interested in islam. you always see quite a few books about islam in even in-between-sized towns.
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north_malaysian
01-26-2007, 07:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I would expect the number of Reverts in Europe to be over 10,000,000.
That's a VERY HIGH figure....

let me check those christian databases....
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north_malaysian
01-26-2007, 07:54 AM
Taken from joshua project website...

BELGIUM
* Walloon (658)
* Fleming (575)
* French (23)

BULGARIA
* Non-Pomak Bulgarian (18,622)
* Macedonian (1,020)

...just that available there...imsad
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Woodrow
01-26-2007, 12:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
That's a VERY HIGH figure....

let me check those christian databases....
Check out France, Spain, Italy and Portugal and you will see the numbers start climbing. It is true up in North West Europe there are not all that many , but when you take all of the European countries, there are a lot.
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Muezzin
01-26-2007, 01:48 PM
The double standards exhibited by this historian astound me. If such comments were made about Jews they would quite rightly be called Anti-Semitic.
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KAding
01-26-2007, 05:51 PM
I am not convinced by these claims. In general there are only two groups who think Islam is taking over Europe: 1. Those who are scared to death of the thought and want to scare others into doing something, 2. Muslims who want it to happen.

I have some doubts about these dire predictions about this supposed Islamization of Europe. It does not make sense to simple extend the trends from the last 20-30 years, because:

1. Immigration rules are becoming increasingly strict throughout Europe, the number of Muslim immigrants is already declining.
2. There are plenty of Muslims who are as Islamic as I am Christian, namely, not at all. Mosque attendance is dropping for example. It's quite a stretch to claim that all these Muslims that are born in such a secular society will become die-hard Muslims.
3. Muslim birth rates are already dropping for later generations of Muslim immigrants.

Now, unless someone can show me that a great number of former atheist/agnostic/Christian Europeans are converting to Islam, I am not convinced at all.
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 05:56 PM
kAding

once did the maths, assuming with the non muslims having 2 children be famiy, and the muslims 4 (i know it is not that simple and i know the non muslims have far less than this on average)

from that assumption, i worked out it would take approx 93 years for muslims to become a majority in my city of sheffield and a little longer than that nationally

Abu Abdullah
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KAding
01-26-2007, 05:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
wonder why it is growing faster in europe than in u.s. - is europe easier to immigrate to?
one of the side effects about 9/11 is that it got a lot of people interested in islam. you always see quite a few books about islam in even in-between-sized towns.
Interestingly, I always was under the impression Islam was having more success in the United States, since it is already a religious society.

There are so few figures on conversion though, so it's largely guessing really.
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KAding
01-26-2007, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
kAding

once did the maths, assuming with the non muslims having 2 children be famiy, and the muslims 4 (i know it is not that simple and i know the non muslims have far less than this on average)

from that assumption, i worked out it would take approx 93 years for muslims to become a majority in my city of sheffield and a little longer than that nationally

Abu Abdullah
But there is no reason whatsoever to assume Muslims will have (or are having even) so many children. Why do historically Muslims have a higher birth rate? Simple, because most of them come from economically undeveloped countries and regions in which having many kids was the norm. The first generation had a fair amount of kids, though the birth rate dropped steadily for each generation.

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/647 (This is for denmark. Don't mind the website, it's the source he quotes).

Figures from the Dutch National Bureau for Statistics also showed that birth rates for Muslims (and immigrants in general) are only slightly above the national average. Unfortunately the website is down, so I can't show you the graph :(.


Anyway, this whole 'Muslims are taking over Europe' hype is based on the false assumption that these Muslims live completely isolated from their surroundings. As if immigration legislation, secularization and broader birth rate trends do not apply to them. As if they'll keep reproducing at the same rate as their grandparents did in the countries they came from.
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Bittersteel
01-27-2007, 04:24 AM
Mosque attendance is dropping for example.
mosque attendance is not same as Church attendance.Muslims are allowed to pray at home.Its only mandatory for Fridays.
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Zulkiflim
01-27-2007, 02:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
100,000 in europe?

wouldnt be suprised if that many in UK alone. seems every masjid i go into isnt complete without at least 1 ginger revert brother and i am assuming there are other non ginger reverts out there as well as us ginger bearded brothers.

also need to remember that there are twice as many revert sisters than brothers in the uk, so for every brother that gets recorded in the masjid there are at least twice as many hiding out in the sisters section or at home.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Salaaam,



ginger revert??

What the heck is that??
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north_malaysian
01-29-2007, 04:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
mosque attendance is not same as Church attendance.Muslims are allowed to pray at home.Its only mandatory for Fridays.
yupp...

In Malaysia, for Fajr prayer it could be 3 people praying in a mosque which could accomodate about 3,000 worshippers... but during Friday prayers... the mosque will be packed .... and during Eid prayers ... it'll increase 50% of Friday prayers congregations as the women also joining in...

and the Grand Mosque in Mecca is overloaded with people 24/7.
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rav
01-29-2007, 04:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
mosque attendance is not same as Church attendance.Muslims are allowed to pray at home.Its only mandatory for Fridays.
Prayer at home and personally is one of the most popular things in christianity. They have no law to pray in a congregation like which is advised under Jewish law (a group of 10 or more males).
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north_malaysian
01-29-2007, 05:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
Prayer at home and personally is one of the most popular things in christianity. They have no law to pray in a congregation like which is advised under Jewish law (a group of 10 or more males).
So a 10 person needed to perform a congregational prayer? No wonder they closed the synagogue in the downtown of George Town... (only 1 Penangite Jew family still living in Penang)...

Can a Jew go to the synagogue and sit there alone... remembering god etc?
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thirdwatch512
01-29-2007, 06:18 AM
i am not trying to sound rude, but i, as a homosexual, am very weary of islamic growth. i guess i just don't know what to expect.

but i don't think islam will dominate europe. because we must remember that unlike muslims in the U.S., the muslims in europe typically don't live with the rest. like you can go to paris and would never ever guess that france was 10% muslim. then go to the suburbs, and you would think you were in lebanon or something lol. and that's how it is in a lot of europe.

but all in all i think once america gets out of iraq, once palestine and israel can get peaceful, and once europe lowers the amount of immigrants it takes in, maybe islam won't be increasing as much. also, i hear that europe's white birthrate is on the increase.. so who knows lol.
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sevgi
01-29-2007, 06:22 AM
you know, the number of converts may be increasing in europe and with the inclusion of Turkey to the eu, it will increase heapes...but this is what i am scared of...

as the Turks enter the eu, they lose their islamic values. they are acting way to euroish jsut to be accepted. so quite frankly, i dnt care about the number of mulsims grow in europe...converts are good.but do the muslims who lose themselves and their identity away from home really count...theyre only good for numbers and definietly nothing for the europeans to be scared of...i believe we shud be the ones who are scared by these growing numbers.

but its nice how the historian credited so much power to Turkey :p
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cihad
01-29-2007, 04:31 PM
i don't want turkey to go into the eu
coz then they will go even more western than they are already
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thirdwatch512
01-29-2007, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cihad
i don't want turkey to go into the eu
coz then they will go even more western than they are already
the bigger cities, yes.. but the smaller cities won't see any change. and the rural areas in turkey are ultra islamic convservative.

there are still religious christian small towns in russia, and russia went through over a hundred years of communism where religion was hated!
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rav
01-29-2007, 11:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
So a 10 person needed to perform a congregational prayer? No wonder they closed the synagogue in the downtown of George Town... (only 1 Penangite Jew family still living in Penang)...

Can a Jew go to the synagogue and sit there alone... remembering god etc?
Of course. But a Minyan (10 males) is required for certain prayers and customs like reciting the Torah and more.

Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minyan
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sevgi
01-29-2007, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cihad
i don't want turkey to go into the eu
coz then they will go even more western than they are already
Turkey isnt really western at the moment...they jst think they are.theyre modernising most areas...so ineviatbly "westernism" is taking its toll. Turizm is crazy in Turkey so most of the influence is from there. there are still atleast two mosques on every street and the adhan can be heard five times a day.they are all still muslims but the number of practicing ones are decreasing. The problem with Turkey is the political concurrence. The leading party wants to fix most things but cant because for years, the military has overtaken most roles which the govt is supposed to decree.

i mean, you enter Istanbul and this is what you see:
a whole lot of men gathered in every corner talking about how bad the govt is
cigarette smoke
traffic
car horns

but all u can focus on is the flashy side of it...coz they make it look good. people dress up and think they are all French...but they cant see that they actually have quite low standards.

i dnt want them to join either. it will get Turkey into a lot of trouble with the superpowers. What they want at the moment is an introverted Turkey. Stable on the inside...but unbelievable unstable in its international affairs.Turkey holds a lot of potential and they know this.one can see this from its history. so they are jst preoccupying the people and teasing them with this EU stuff.
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