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England
01-25-2007, 09:57 PM
Schools in England should teach "core British values" alongside cultural diversity, a report says.
A review of how schools teach citizenship found there was not enough emphasis on UK identity and history.


The report, by Sir Keith Ajegbo, says pupils should study free speech, the rule of law, mutual tolerance and respect for equal rights.

Education Secretary Alan Johnson has said schools should "play a leading role in creating community cohesion".

He commissioned the review in the wake of the London bombings. Ministers see schools as a key place to promote understanding between communities and to combat intolerance and religious extremism.

Welcoming the report, Mr Johnson announced it would become compulsory for secondary school pupils up to the age of 16 to learn about shared values and life in the UK in their citizenship lessons.

British values

He said youngsters should be encouraged to think critically about issues of race, ethnicity and religion with "an explicit link" to current political debates, the news and a sense of British values.

Understanding the make up of the UK and the recent history of Britain was crucial, he said.

"More can be done to strengthen the curriculum so that pupils are taught more explicitly about why British values of tolerance and respect prevail in society and how our national, regional, religious and ethnic identities have developed over time," he said.

"I believe that schools can and should play a leading role in creating greater community cohesion. The values our children learn at school will shape the kind of country Britain becomes."

Sir Keith Ajegbo, a former head teacher of a London school and Home Office adviser, was asked to look at how "citizenship" and "diversity" was being taught in schools.

Citizenship became compulsory in England's secondary schools in 2002.

His report says more could be done to ensure children "explore, discuss and debate their identities within their citizenship lessons".

Sir Keith said: "Britain is committed to the values of free speech, the rule of law, mutual tolerance and respect for equal rights. They are things that are fundamental to our society."

He suggested that schools should be prepared to tackle controversial topics in the news such as the debate over immigration, and the UK's place in the European Union as well as the legacy of the British Empire.

He said: "It is the duty of all schools to address issues of `how we live together' and `dealing with difference', however difficult or controversial they may seem".

Where could pupils bring those difficult questions if not to school, he asked.

Sir Keith's report also says more needs to be done to engage white, working-class pupils with the issue of diversity.

It says white pupils can feel disenfranchised as much as pupils from other ethnic backgrounds.

"Many indigenous white pupils have negative perceptions of their own identity," it says.

Slavery

The new element for citizenship lessons will be called "Identity and Diversity: Living together in the UK" .

British history will be essential to it, said Sir Keith. At the moment, history is optional after the age of 14.

The three existing planks of citizenship lessons are social and moral responsibility, community involvement and political literacy.

Schools can give distinct lessons on the subject or introduce elements of it in various lessons. The report said it was best taught as a separate subject.

Sir Keith said citizenship lessons had been introduced as a response to political apathy but it was now time to broaden their remit.

Last year schools inspectors Ofsted said the subject was taught badly in one in four schools in England.

Nick Johnson, from the Commission for Racial Equality welcomed the report: "Certain values may be universal, but their application through our history is unique to these islands," he said.

"Britishness does not need to be dominant and certainly not a domineering identity, but it must be a significant common facet that we all can share.

"As such it is a key component in developing greater ties that can bind society together."

Shadow education secretary David Willetts said: "Grounding citizenship on the teaching of British history is crucial.

"We believe citizenship shouldn't just be taught in the abstract but linked very closely to narrative British history."

Teachers' representatives at the NASUWT said they shared the government's aim of promoting equality and diversity.

But they also warned that it might be difficult to add the new themes to an already-crowded curriculum.

Alison Johnston, from the Professional Association of Teachers, said: "It would not be appropriate to promote an imperial British myth by teaching that values such as democracy, justice and fair play are exclusively British or implying that Britain is superior to other countries."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6294643.stm
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Keltoi
01-25-2007, 10:09 PM
This is similar to the debate going on in the U.S. about the importance of assimilation into American society, particulary with the Mexican immigrants, both legal and illegal. I don't think it should be that controversial to expect those who wish to become citizens of either the U.S. or Great Britain to learn about the values, culture, and history of that nation.
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 11:09 AM
hmm british history... nothing much to be proud of there.

i cannot imagine something forcing people to look at alternative lifestyles to the norm such as islam than a genuine look at the history of britain and its past.

best defence i have heard of the british empire was "it was better for em cos it at least it wasnt the french, italians or belgians who colonised em!"

not a very good moral argument, but there you have it and easily defeated.

Abu Abdullah
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-26-2007, 11:13 AM
lol what fishiness is this lol subhanAllaah

Freedome is getting more narrow everyday in europe.
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Keltoi
01-26-2007, 12:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
lol what fishiness is this lol subhanAllaah

Freedome is getting more narrow everyday in europe.
"Freedome" isn't easy, and it didn't come cheap. There is nothing wrong with expecting immigrants that choose to live in either the U.S. or the United States to learn about the country they have chosen to inhabit. If you want to live there and take advantage of the way of life and the standard of living, then you should at the very least learn the language, history, and values of that particular country. If you hate the country that much, then leave.
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-26-2007, 01:07 PM
no-one hates the country, its just the extra work, some people have really busy lives. Will learning about the country really make a difference?
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Keltoi
01-26-2007, 01:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
hmm british history... nothing much to be proud of there.

i cannot imagine something forcing people to look at alternative lifestyles to the norm such as islam than a genuine look at the history of britain and its past.

best defence i have heard of the british empire was "it was better for em cos it at least it wasnt the french, italians or belgians who colonised em!"

not a very good moral argument, but there you have it and easily defeated.

Abu Abdullah
Nothing to be proud of in British history? Fairly absurd statement. I'm not even British and I can think of a fairly long list.
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Muezzin
01-26-2007, 01:10 PM
Nice idea, but if they keep these lessons as separate 'citizenship' sessions, I bet a whole lot of students will skive or regard it as a 'doss lesson' and not take it seriously. At least, that's my recollection of pupils' reactions to PHSE lessons in secondary school.
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Woodrow
01-26-2007, 01:14 PM
I believe most immigrants have a strong incentive to learn the culture of any country they migrate into. That incentive is called survival. I think people should learn the culture of what ever country they live in, but it should not be a legal mandate.
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Keltoi
01-26-2007, 01:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
no-one hates the country, its just the extra work, some people have really busy lives. Will learning about the country really make a difference?
It isn't about "making a difference" in any particular thing, it is about being British and a citizen of Great Britain. Just as in the U.S., the days of grateful immigrants willingly putting in the effort to become knowledgable about the country they have chosen to inhabit are long gone. The principles and values of democracy and freedom are important to its continued existence. These values are and should be taught in public schools. The same with adult immigrants, they too should take courses designed to educated them on the democratic system they have chosen to reap the benefits of.
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Malaikah
01-26-2007, 01:19 PM
:sl:

I think it is probably not a bad idea... but the problem with it is the reactions it causes, for example:

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
If you hate the country that much, then leave.
I think, in general, it is too open to abuse.:rolleyes:
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Keltoi
01-26-2007, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

I think it is probably not a bad idea... but the problem with it is the reactions it causes, for example:



I think, in general, it is too open to abuse.:rolleyes:
That didn't cause my reaction, my reaction was caused by those who live in a country and reap all the benefits, but still talk about how they hate the country they live in. They have freedom of speech, and they can say it, but I also have freedom of speech.
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Malaikah
01-26-2007, 01:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
That didn't cause my reaction, my reaction was caused by those who live in a country and reap all the benefits, but still talk about how they hate the country they live in. They have freedom of speech, and they can say it, but I also have freedom of speech.
That is my point exactly, this issue just brings out all the stereotypes- not one even said they hate the country!!!

This just brings out the defensiveness in everyone.
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Sabbir_1
01-26-2007, 01:46 PM
Nothing to be proud of in British history? Fairly absurd statement. I'm not even British and I can think of a fairly long list.
I cant think of anything good... please list them own.. i would really like to know

They should teach about the islamic history in these schools, not once when i was in school did they teach about the islamic history.. i wouldnt expect them..too.. its always about ww1, ww2, viking, romans.. nothing else.. Indians..
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Keltoi
01-26-2007, 01:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
That is my point exactly, this issue just brings out all the stereotypes- not one even said they hate the country!!!

This just brings out the defensiveness in everyone.
My comment was directed at Dawud_uk, who posted that there was nothing to be proud of in British history, and went on to leave the impression that anything the British are proud of should be "refuted". No, he didn't use the word "hate", but there are plenty of people out there who have this mindset. In the U.S. they are usually spoiled little rich kids who think its cool to say they hate their country. That is freedom of speech, and I don't want to STOP them from saying it, but perhaps they wouldn't feel the need to say it in the first place if they actually knew anything about their country. That is my point. Education about democracy and citizenship is important to the health of any constitutional democracy.
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FBI
01-26-2007, 01:56 PM
:sl:

This is just stupid, what the hell is "Britishness" anyway, can someone give me a list in bullet-point format so I can laugh with ease?
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S_87
01-26-2007, 01:59 PM
:sl:

sounds interesting. until its actually being implemented cant really say much.
they should have brought studying british history when i was in school!
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Keltoi
01-26-2007, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

This is just stupid, what the hell is "Britishness" anyway, can someone give me a list in bullet-point format so I can laugh with ease?
I don't think it is referring to a "list" of attributes, it is referring to an overall understanding of the democratic system, the responsibilities of being a British citizen, voting, etc, etc.
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S_87
01-26-2007, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

This is just stupid, what the hell is "Britishness" anyway, can someone give me a list in bullet-point format so I can laugh with ease?
:sl:

well britain does have a lot of culture, not all of it is bad...
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-26-2007, 02:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
It isn't about "making a difference" in any particular thing, it is about being British and a citizen of Great Britain.
why do we have to "Be British", why cant we "Be who we are" and still live with them? Do they hate us if we're not british or something ??
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S_87
01-26-2007, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
why do we have to "Be British", why cant we "Be who we are" and still live with them? Do they hate us if we're not british or something ??
:sl:

i get what youre trying to say but take this as an example

im indian by culture. my link with india is my ancestry. although ive never been to the country nor intend to, i have within me indian culture.
what is wrong then with knowing the culture of the country you are living in, the country you are a citizen of where it does not conflict with deen?

pasrt of british culture can be something as harmless as fish and chips...
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FBI
01-26-2007, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
:sl:

well britain does have a lot of culture, not all of it is bad...
And that is?
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S_87
01-26-2007, 02:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
And that is?
:sl:

are you british?
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FBI
01-26-2007, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
:sl:

are you british?
Wll I've lived here all my life but I woudln't call my self british I don't see the point I'm me, this country doesn't effect who I am in anyway other then fitnah.
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Sabbir_1
01-26-2007, 02:44 PM
get what youre trying to say but take this as an example

im indian by culture. my link with india is my ancestry. although ive never been to the country nor intend to, i have within me indian culture.
what is wrong then with knowing the culture of the country you are living in, the country you are a citizen of where it does not conflict with deen?

pasrt of british culture can be something as harmless as fish and chips..

Do you the what the british did in india? they didvided it.. i cant think of anything good from this country..I
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FBI
01-26-2007, 02:46 PM
:sl:

Instead of Teaching "Britishness" the Goverment should be teaching moral's in school then this country would be in a better state.
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S_87
01-26-2007, 02:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
Wll I've lived here all my life but I woudln't call my self british I don't see the point I'm me, this country doesn't effect who I am in anyway other then fitnah.
:sl:

are you trying to say you have not benifited in any way whatsoever by living in this country?


Do you the what the british did in india? they didvided it.. i cant think of anything good from this country..I
not anything at all???
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FBI
01-26-2007, 02:51 PM
:sl:

are you trying to say you have not benifited in any way whatsoever by living in this country
I've earn't my benifts through the mercy of allah, and thats besides the point, the question remains what's "Britishness" I don't see how the goverment can teach it if no one knows what it is?
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-26-2007, 02:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
:sl:

i get what youre trying to say but take this as an example

im indian by culture. my link with india is my ancestry. although ive never been to the country nor intend to, i have within me indian culture.
what is wrong then with knowing the culture of the country you are living in, the country you are a citizen of where it does not conflict with deen?

pasrt of british culture can be something as harmless as fish and chips...
:wasalamex

i guess, as long as it doesnt take up too much of your life. If they make you spend a whole year on something like "learning how to be british" i would DEFINITLY be against that...
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Sabbir_1
01-26-2007, 02:53 PM
not anything at all???
you should know about your country and where you came from, if you knew what they did in india you would'nt like country so much as you do know..

.
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Nothing to be proud of in British history? Fairly absurd statement. I'm not even British and I can think of a fairly long list.
well i am and i cannot, so please go ahead. if i am wrong i will admit it, i am not stubborn where proved wrong.
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by khalil27
I cant think of anything good... please list them own.. i would really like to know

They should teach about the islamic history in these schools, not once when i was in school did they teach about the islamic history.. i wouldnt expect them..too.. its always about ww1, ww2, viking, romans.. nothing else.. Indians..
according to the west history lessons take an enforced break from about 600 ce till 1066 ce and deny anything of any significance happens inbetween...

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 03:18 PM
no one here can even quantify what britishness is...

when they can do so then lets have this discussion again.
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S_87
01-26-2007, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by khalil27
you should know about your country and where you came from, if you knew what they did in india you would'nt like country so much as you do know..

.
:sl:
i know england as a country isnt innocent in its interference with other places however there ARE good points or points that dont do no harm
dont just point out and dwell on the bad.
you as a person living in britain cannot think of 1 benifit of you living here??? or one thing good?

britishness could be something like the weather being discussed towards the beginning of every conversation.
or how we always find something to complain about weather related.
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Far7an
01-26-2007, 03:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Nice idea, but if they keep these lessons as separate 'citizenship' sessions, I bet a whole lot of students will skive or regard it as a 'doss lesson' and not take it seriously. At least, that's my recollection of pupils' reactions to PHSE lessons in secondary school.
They have citizenship lessons in our school, the year 11 students think of it as an easy qualification to earn so they don't really mind it. I think it's a GNVQ?
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-26-2007, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Far7an
They have citizenship lessons in our school, the year 11 students think of it as an easy qualification to earn so they don't really mind it. I think it's a GNVQ?
when i done it, it was half a GCSE !
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afriend
01-26-2007, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Far7an
They have citizenship lessons in our school, the year 11 students think of it as an easy qualification to earn so they don't really mind it. I think it's a GNVQ?
Yeah they've finally introduced it into our school, as it's the law, but true enough it's just another simple GCSE. alhamdulillah.

ma'salaam
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Far7an
They have citizenship lessons in our school, the year 11 students think of it as an easy qualification to earn so they don't really mind it. I think it's a GNVQ?
i find it strange that muslims also go along to such lessons, yes it is good to know how people think but surely some of them are secular minded and being influenced by this stuff.

muslims need to realise that the kuffar are frightened of us and our strength of faith, these lessons and talking of lack of integration is meant for us, it is us they are trying to change and we should not make it easy for them by sending our youth along to political and cultural indoctrination classes.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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Far7an
01-26-2007, 03:54 PM
Wa alaikum asalaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i find it strange that muslims also go along to such lessons, yes it is good to know how people think but surely some of them are secular minded and being influenced by this stuff.

muslims need to realise that the kuffar are frightened of us and our strength of faith, these lessons and talking of lack of integration is meant for us, it is us they are trying to change and we should not make it easy for them by sending our youth along to political and cultural indoctrination classes.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
It's compulsory bro, every school has to teach it.

Citizenship became compulsory in England's secondary schools in 2002.
When we were in school it was called Life Skills. Something like that, it was pretty lame and we got no qualification for it just a Gold, Silver or Bronze certificate.
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afriend
01-26-2007, 03:56 PM
i find it strange that muslims also go along to such lessons, yes it is good to know how people think but surely some of them are secular minded and being influenced by this stuff.
Not really, we're doing 'How to take care of your money' and 'The Importance of rules' at the moment. I don't find anything wrong with any of it so far.
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FBI
01-26-2007, 04:01 PM
:sl:

Back to the topic, what is "Britishness"?
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Far7an
01-26-2007, 04:02 PM
Learning to eat fish and chips for lunch.
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FBI
01-26-2007, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Far7an
Learning to eat fish and chips for lunch.
:sl:

:D
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 04:11 PM
lol at fish and chips,

think it means more than this doesnt it?

see i can tell you about englishness, i can tell you what it means to be a yorkshireman. but i was born raised here, raised here and lived here my whole life.

yet when asked what is britishness i cannot give you an answer. there was so no such concept until the need for an empire so really it means less than nothing to me, a nothingness meant to keep disperate peoples together.

can someone please show me what are british values other than fish and chips? there are plenty of non muslims here, so please try to answer as i cannot.

Abu Abdullah
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Keltoi
01-26-2007, 04:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
lol at fish and chips,

think it means more than this doesnt it?

see i can tell you about englishness, i can tell you what it means to be a yorkshireman. but i was born raised here, raised here and lived here my whole life.

yet when asked what is britishness i cannot give you an answer. there was so no such concept until the need for an empire so really it means less than nothing to me, a nothingness meant to keep disperate peoples together.

can someone please show me what are british values other than fish and chips? there are plenty of non muslims here, so please try to answer as i cannot.

Abu Abdullah
"Britishness", which is a bad term anyway, I assume would revolve around the institutions of British society. Namely democracy(Parliamentary democracy), free markets, the right to vote, etc. Basically the role of a British citizen, and the laws and expectations that entails. It isn't a list of things a British person should be, just an overall education on what a British citizen should know about their country, the history, the institutions, etc. It should be mandatory for citizens to have an education on these things, it only makes the society and the function of government more healthy.
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FBI
01-26-2007, 04:31 PM
:sl:

I think the goverment are just wasting their money, why don't they just focus more on english,maths,science ect and put the money where needed.
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Woodrow
01-26-2007, 04:37 PM
You probably do not want to know what American's think Britishness is. Actually we love the Brits, but can not understand a word they say in British movies.

The nice thing about USA history is we don't have much to learn, it didn't start until 1776. American history is a different story. Sadly, much of that was eradicated by our early "Pioneers".
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 04:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
"Britishness", which is a bad term anyway, I assume would revolve around the institutions of British society. Namely democracy(Parliamentary democracy), free markets, the right to vote, etc. Basically the role of a British citizen, and the laws and expectations that entails. It isn't a list of things a British person should be, just an overall education on what a British citizen should know about their country, the history, the institutions, etc. It should be mandatory for citizens to have an education on these things, it only makes the society and the function of government more healthy.
interesting keltoi,

but such values have been held for a very short period of time, look how long it took for women and poorer people to get the vote?

democracy itself a british value... i dont agree because the whole process is corrupt and more an oligarchy than anything else. i used to be involved in politics before islam and it is all the same people just about at the top.

now as for free markets... well the vast majority of people were i grew up would say no to that, they are socialists as it was a strong working class community.

so how are free markets british?


the above three values could also be said to be US values so i see nothing in them to specifically claim them to be british so are they perhaps western values in truth, but if that is the case it brings us back to what is britishness?

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 05:19 PM
quiz on britishness from the daily telegraph, a right wing british newspaper

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...british126.xml
Test your knowledge

By Ben Fenton

Food & manners
1) Britain's national dish is:
a) Roast Aberdeen Angus Beef, Yorkshire Pudding and braised leeks.
b) Fish and chips
c) Chicken tikka masala
d) Inedible, whatever it is.

2) Fish and chips is:
a) Inedible, whatever it is
b) Not the same as when I was a child
c) An egalitarian meal enjoyed by people from all walks of life
d) Not the same since the EU stopped us eating out of newspaper.

3) Mushy peas are:
a) Something my grandparents might have eaten
b) Delicious with fish and chips
c) Easily mistaken for guacamole
d) Inedible, whatever it is.

4) The best cooks in the world are:
a) The French
b) Our mums
c) The ones that don't appear on the telly
d) The British

5) British chocolate is:
a) A blend of small amounts of cocoa and large amounts of vegetable fat
b) Much better than anything you buy abroad
c) Good for you
d) Easily mistaken for guacamole

6) When eating at a British family dinner table, it is unacceptable to:
a) Belch
b) Not belch
c) Mention Tony Blair
d) Announce that you are a vegan actually and ask the cook if she has any alfalfa sprouts.

7) You are standing in a crowded train and somebody stands on your foot, so you:
a) Stand on theirs, crying 'See, that's what it feels like, you troglodyte'.
b) Ignore it and hope nobody notices that you haven't made a fuss
c) Ignore it and hope everybody notices that you haven't made a fuss.
d) Apologise and move a few feet sideways.

8) A foreigner stops you in the street near your home and asks in well-modulated English for directions, so you:
a) Speak loudly and clearly and slowly and treat them like a child
b) Speak normally and tell them how to get to where they are going
c) Pretend you are a foreigner too and shrug, in a fashion suggesting that nothing in Britain is worth that much effort to go and see anyway
d) Be natural, helpful and charming, but direct them to somewhere else completely.

9) You are attending a parents' evening at school when your mobile telephone goes off, so you:
a) shrug, answer it and engage in a brief conversation with the caller, it might be important
b) look around crossly, tutting and privately scrabble around in your pocket to try to find the off button
c) Apologise to everyone present and leave the room
d) Answer the phone in a noisy fashion, saying "No, nothing special, fancy a pint later?".

10) A red traffic light is:
a) An important safety precaution
b) Guidance
c) Stuck
d) Amber, officer, I could have sworn it was on amber.

Geography & climate

1) Britain is:
a) England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland
b) Only the first three because if you add Northern Ireland it's the United Kingdom
c) A prosperous federation of culturally diverse regions on the northwest edge of the European Union
d) Slightly smaller than Oregon.

2) The northernmost point in Britain is:
a) Out Stack, Shetland Islands
b) Dunnett Head, Caithness, Scotland
c) Watford
d) Even colder and wetter than the rest.

3) The southernmost point in Britain is:
a) Less cold and wet than the rest
b) Les Minquiers Reef, Jersey
c) Dover
d) Chiantishire, Tuscany.

4) The principal exports of Britain are:
a) Money
b) Manufactured goods, fuels and chemicals
c) Expats
d) Crusader troops bent on re-establishing imperial hegemony over the developing nations of the world.

5) The principal imports of Britain are:
a) Being scavenged on a beach in east Devon
b) manufactured goods, machinery, fuels
c) Feckless, lazy individuals from other countries trying to take our jobs/benefits and unblock our u-bends
d) Much cheaper than anything we can make of the same quality.

6) The best thing about the British climate is:
a) At least it isn't worse
b) It gives the British something to talk about
c) There isn't one, it's ghastly
d) It's getting warmer.

7) The worst thing about the British climate is:
a) There isn't one, it's marvellous
b) It gives the British something to talk about.
c) For some inexplicable reason, it isn't suited to our railway infrastructure
) It's getting warmer.

8) You should carry a brolly when you go out in Britain:
a) Just in case it rains
b) It's more likely to be sunny if you do
c) Do you mean an umbrella?
d) It makes you look suave and sophisticated, especially if your brolly has the name of an expensive sporting event you haven't been to printed on it.

9) Tornadoes happen in Britain:
a) More often than anywhere else in the world
b) On quiet news days when there isn't anything else to put in the papers
c) But not anywhere near us
d) And the odd thing is that they never hit caravan parks.

10) Global warming will mean:
a) Less Britain
b) More rain
c) Less rain
d) More moaning

Sport

1)"It is not the winning that counts but the taking part" is the watchword of:
a) The England cricket team
b) The Scottish rugby team
c) The Welsh football team
d) Losers.

2) Cricket is the most British of sports because:
a) It was invented here but everyone else now does it better
b) The English media gets very excited about it, ignoring the fact that the Scots, Welsh and Irish aren't really very interested at all
c) It epitomises the values of decency and fair play which made this nation great
d) Ordinary people play it, but it's usually the posh ones who get made captain.

3) Britain gets four chances to win the World Cup and the European Championship while every other country only has one because:
a) They might as well be separate countries when they play football anyway, they hate each other so much
b) It's only fair because we invented the game
c) The alternative is devolution
d) That's a very good point, don't you think FIFA ought to look into it?

4) The British and Irish Lions:
a) Are one of those extinct species that used to wander around when there were wolves and bears and so on
b) Are the only example of a co-operative sports team involving all the nations of the British Isles
c) Only win when the Welsh are in charge
d) Are the model for all future sports teams from this part of the world.

5) When Tim Henman is knocked out of Wimbledon, you are:
a) Disappointed that we can't produce a winner
b) Relieved that it's over for another year
c) Certain that Andy Murray will be no better
d) Practising your backhand

6) Your attitude to foreign football stars is:
a) This is a multicultural society and it reflects the fluidity of the modern world
b) They are debasing the standards of the game with their histrionic habits and allowing teams to purchase success
c) They do British-born players out of a chance and lower our chances of ever winning anything
d) I wish my team could afford some.

7) The Marquis of Queensberry Rules:
a) were dropped when FIFA was founded
b) govern the noble art of boxing
c) are for losers
d) OK.

8) All of the best football managers are:
a) Foreign
b) Scottish
c) Signed by some other club
d) Unavailable to manage England.

9) When England play any other nation at cricket, you support:
a) England
b) The other side
c) The underdog
d) The League Against Cruel Sports.

10) The London 2012 Olympics will be a tournament for the entire country to celebrate because:
a) As we're all going to pay for it, we might as well enjoy it.
b) Our athletes will win glory and gold medals galore
c) We will teach the rest of the world what it means to be good losers
d) Sebastian Coe seems like a jolly nice, efficient sort of a chap.
Politics & culture

1) Britain's greatest Prime Minister was:
a) Pitt the Younger
b) Winston Churchill
c) Tony Blair
d) Still a politician.

2) We should erect a statue of John Prescott in Parliament Square because:
a) He is a monumental figure in British politics
b) It would remind politicians not to take themselves too seriously
c) Covering him in molten bronze would be no bad thing
d) Who is John Prescott?

3) The 25th anniversary of the Falklands War this year will mark:
a) A risky foreign adventure
b) A brilliantly executed response to armed aggression c) A crime against humanity
d) The last time we had anything remotely resembling a Navy.

4) Vast City bonuses:
a) Are the unacceptable face of capitalism
b) Are the justifiable reward for people whose work underpins Britain's economic well-being
c) Will trickle down into the rest of the economy
d) Will trickle down into the rest of the economy of the Bahamas.

5) Hunting was banned in Britain because of:
a) Cruelty to animals
b) Class envy
c) A fundamental misunderstanding of rural traditions by metropolitan politicians
d) Everyone had enough to eat and could buy food from the supermarket.

6) Devolution will never really happen in Britain because
a) Scotland needs the rest of Britain
b) Britain needs the oil of Scotland
c) The EU doesn't want any more small, broke nations joining it
d) Most Brits haven't finished with evolution yet, never mind devolution.

7) The West Lothian Question is:
a) Frankly, not worth bothering about
b) Why should Scots MPs be able to vote on English issues when English MPs can't vote on Scottish ones
c) The one I always get asked in pub quizzes
d) Where is West Lothian?

8) The BBC makes me:
a) Proud to be British
b) Hopping mad
c) See the value of Freeview
d) Pay my licence fee whether I want to or not.

9) Modern British Art makes me:
a) Proud to be British
b) Proud to be a Philistine
c) Slightly queasy
d) Appreciate the towering genius and talent of Jackson Pollock.

10) I watch Celebrity Big Brother:
a) Regularly because it gives me such a fascinating insight into the human psyche and the paradigms of interpersonal relationships
b) Only when a loaded Taser is placed in my mouth
c) Because I like to be able to keep up with what's going on in the newspapers
d) But please don't tell my friends.

History

1) British history started:
a) Long before the Romans arrived
b) In 1066 when William the Conqueror arrived.
c) In 1707 when the Scots arrived.
d) About 11am, just after double Maths and before Personal & Social Health Education.

2) There has never been a revolution in Britain because:
a) We couldn't be bothered
b) Only foreigners get that excited
c) There has. It was in 1649 when Cromwell chopped off Charles I's head, but we've calmed down now
d) Just you wait, my friends.

3) The last battle ever fought on British soil was:
a) Sedgemoor in 1685
b) Culloden in 1746
c) A bit of a waste of time because the Scots and the English are constantly *****ing about each other still
d) Jade Goody v Shilpa Shetty in 2007.

4) The British Royal Family can trace its ancestry back:
a) To Wilfred the Hairy, Count of Barcelona and beyond
b) To William the Conqueror
c) Only with the help of the BBC's Who Do You Think You Are? programme
d) As far as they like, but they're still foreigners.

5) The battle of Waterloo was won by:
a) cunning use of railway supply lines and First Great Western buffet facilities
b) Arthur Wellesley, first Duke of Wellington
c) Abba.
d) The Germans, but we never give them credit for anything

6) Our legacy from the age of Victoria is:
a) Sewerage
b) An uncomfortable feeling of cultural decline
c) A place at the top table of nations
d) Romeo, Brooklyn and Cruz.

7) When Churchill said "We will fight them on the beaches", he was referring to:
a) The Labour Party
b) German stormtroopers arriving on BMW motorcycles
c) British "beachcombers" leaving on BMW motorcycles
d) Fatboy Slim

8) The British coat of arms bears the words: "Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense", which means:
a) Honey, Your Silk Stocking's Hanging Down [©Sellar and Yeatman]
b) Shame on Those Who Think This Shameful
c) We Should Be Kings of France Too
d) Honours Sure Are Getting More Expensive

9) Britain joined the "Common Market" in 1973 because:
a) The Government didn't read the fine print
b) We wanted take our place alongside our long-term international partners in a brave and stabilising economic union
c) You could get Green Shield Stamps and some nice cut-glass tumblers when you signed up
d) It seemed like a good idea at the time.

10) The figure from British history I would most like to see in the Celebrity Big Brother House is:
a) Sir Isaac Newton
b) Nell Gwynne
c) Jade Goody
d) Anybody in the severely infectious stages of the Black Death

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...british226.xml
Reply

Snowflake
01-26-2007, 05:32 PM
If kids need to be taught anything in school, it's respect for elders, teachers and the memebers of their community in general. They have no respect for the environment and go around vandalising everyting in sight. Britain's yob culture has created Hell on earth. How about teaching students how to behave like decent human beings.
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Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
If kids need to be taught anything in school, it's respect for elders, teachers and the memebers of their community in general. They have no respect for the environment and go around vandalising everyting in sight. Britain's yob culture has created Hell on earth. How about teaching students how to behave like decent human beings.
good points but how are those values in any way british?

i would argue the main problem in the muslim part of the community is the muslim kids taking these 'british' yob values onboard and becomming westernised.
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Snowflake
01-26-2007, 06:03 PM
I meant that rather than 'britishness' these are the lessons kids need learning.
I agree with you on the second sentence.
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England
01-27-2007, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by khalil27
Do you the what the british did in india? they didvided it.. i cant think of anything good from this country..I
The British Empire's influence remains strong throughout the world: in economic practice, legal and governmental systems, society, sports (such as cricket and football), and the English language itself, to name just a few.

Britain also outlawed the slave trade, attacking every ship that had slaves. Thanks to the British empires tradings the revenues were large enough that it was able to raise its own army, comprised mainly of indigenous Indian people who were placed under the command of British officers who were primarily English or Scottish. Such Indian soldiers were called sepoys.
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Sabbir_1
01-27-2007, 01:08 PM
Britain also outlawed the slave trade, attacking every ship that had slaves. Thanks to the British empires tradings the revenues were large enough that it was able to raise its own army, comprised mainly of indigenous Indian people who were placed under the command of British officers who were primarily English or Scottish. Such Indian soldiers were called sepoys.
yes they outlawed it, but they also took part in it too...
Reply

seeker_of_ilm
01-27-2007, 01:17 PM
:sl:

Britishness......Can be summed up by the following,

Queuing
Moaning
Football

But seriously, I would have thought Education would be better served by removing Soft Degree subjects such as Media Studies, Film Studies etc.

:w:
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Skillganon
01-27-2007, 01:23 PM
Let me sum up what "Britishness" is:

Pubs.
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FBI
01-27-2007, 01:31 PM
Britain also outlawed the slave trade
whats Liverpool's docks famous for? They were one of the main culprits.
Reply

England
01-27-2007, 03:42 PM
Who ended slave tradings? Who forced others to end it? If it wasn't for the British blacks would be slaves today.

I'm not too bothered about the slavery anyway.

Many of you know nothing about Britain. None of you know anything but state the stereotypes rather than go into depth of what made and still makes this country Great. This is the reason why they are bringing this law in. It has been proven in this thread why people need educating on this issue.
Reply

Bittersteel
01-27-2007, 03:48 PM
I hate Britain,its history ,its culture and everything about it.People under British colonial rule were slaves whether they were paid or not.Nothing to worry about it though,I am a Bangladeshi national.Never thinking of becoming an immigrant.anyways I am not proud of the fact that my ancestors were slaves/servants whatever.It makes my skin crawl.
though if it weren't the British we would have had the French to rule us and that would have been more intolerable for me.
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Keltoi
01-27-2007, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
I hate Britain,its history ,its culture and everything about it.People under British colonial rule were slaves whether they were paid or not.Nothing to worry about it though,I am a Bangladeshi national.Never thinking of becoming an immigrant.anyways I am not proud of the fact that my ancestors were slaves/servants whatever.It makes my skin crawl.
though if it weren't the British we would have had the French to rule us and that would have been more intolerable for me.
As an American there are plenty of reasons for me to "hate" Britain if I was so inclined, but history is history, and now the U.S. and the U.K. are loyal allies. The British did burn down the White House once...:rant: The British Empire made alot of mistakes in its colonialism, but it also brought about alot of progress and positive change. Sometimes it is good to stand back and look at things from a broader perspective.

Of course the history of the British Empire is only one element to being British. The Industrial Revolution had its start in Great Britain. The way the country stood firm in the face of Hitler's war machine. Winston Churchill is one of my favorite leaders in world history. There is much to be proud of in British history, and there are always chapters a nation would like to forget.
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England
01-27-2007, 04:24 PM
Churchill:

"I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone.

At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty's Government-every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation.

The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength.

Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
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FBI
01-27-2007, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Churchill:

"I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone.

At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty's Government-every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation.

The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength.

Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
:sl:

:confused:
Reply

Muezzin
01-27-2007, 04:28 PM
People should learn the history of the country they live in.

They should also learn the history of how their country has affected others, and learn about other countries. A good grasp of history can make a well-rounded individual.
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FBI
01-27-2007, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
People should learn the history of the country they live in.

They should also learn the history of how their country has affected others, and learn about other countries. A good grasp of history can make a well-rounded individual.
isn't that what history lessons are for?
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Keltoi
01-27-2007, 04:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
isn't that what history lessons are for?
I assume learning about British history would be a part of this.
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Fishman
01-27-2007, 04:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I assume learning about British history would be a part of this.
:sl:
No, that's citizenship, which already teaches these 'Britishness' things, so I don't know what that guy was going on about!

Freedom, Equality and Demoracy are not eclusively British values, and they are not exculsively western values either.
:w:
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Keltoi
01-27-2007, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
No, that's citizenship, which already teaches these 'Britishness' things, so I don't know what that guy was going on about!

Freedom, Equality and Demoracy are not eclusively British values, and they are not exculsively western values either.
:w:
Perhaps not "exclusively", but as governments in practice the West has had a much longer history with democracy, equality, and freedom than others.
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FBI
01-27-2007, 04:59 PM
:sl:

From this thread I've conculded no one actually knows what Britishness is, If I was still at school I'd refuse to attend such a waste of time.
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Woodrow
01-27-2007, 07:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

From this thread I've conculded no one actually knows what Britishness is, If I was still at school I'd refuse to attend such a waste of time.
Britishness is the ability to even come up with the word Britishness.
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FBI
01-27-2007, 08:00 PM
:sl:

Britishness
lol.
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Fishman
01-27-2007, 08:46 PM
:sl:
No true Brit tries to think about what Britishness is...
:w:
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Dawud_uk
01-27-2007, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
As an American there are plenty of reasons for me to "hate" Britain if I was so inclined, but history is history, and now the U.S. and the U.K. are loyal allies. The British did burn down the White House once...:rant: The British Empire made alot of mistakes in its colonialism, but it also brought about alot of progress and positive change. Sometimes it is good to stand back and look at things from a broader perspective.

Of course the history of the British Empire is only one element to being British. The Industrial Revolution had its start in Great Britain. The way the country stood firm in the face of Hitler's war machine. Winston Churchill is one of my favorite leaders in world history. There is much to be proud of in British history, and there are always chapters a nation would like to forget.
i assume your not referring to old whinstons little idea of dropping gas bombs on the kurds a few decades before saddam even thought up the idea?
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Keltoi
01-27-2007, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i assume your not referring to old whinstons little idea of dropping gas bombs on the kurds a few decades before saddam even thought up the idea?
I assume you are referring to the memo which ponders the possibility of using gas to stop a rebellion? Not his grandest idea obviously, but it didn't occur.
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Skillganon
01-27-2007, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
No true Brit tries to think about what Britishness is...
:w:
ahhh I think that hit's the nail.

No one know's what britishness mean's.
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Keltoi
01-27-2007, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
ahhh I think that hit's the nail.

No one know's what britishness mean's.
I think you're too caught up on the word "Britishness" and not on the point of the educational initiative.
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Skillganon
01-27-2007, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think you're too caught up on the word "Britishness" and not on the point of the educational initiative.
What educational initiative?
EDIT:
and what it got to do with a word (i.e.britishness) everyone is perplexed about?
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Keltoi
01-27-2007, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
What educational initiative?
To teach more about British history, culture, and the important institutions.
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Skillganon
01-27-2007, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
To teach more about British history, culture, and the important institutions.
Well everyone studies british history in school.

Now british culture is a funny term. People practically live in such a country surrounded by "british culture" (lol), if they did not get it they must be blind.
What important institution?
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strider
01-27-2007, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i find it strange that muslims also go along to such lessons, yes it is good to know how people think but surely some of them are secular minded and being influenced by this stuff.
I took Citizenship at GCSE and think it would be really useful if all schools made it a compulsory subject. Why? Well, at 16 you can learn about the Maths, Sciences, English, Languages, History and all the other subjects and at 16 you can also leave school and face the real world. Many students leave school not even knowing how the political system works and you expect them to vote the next leaders in. Citizenship gives the opportunity for students to learn about the political system and how exactly it works, laws which concern us all and our rights aswell as other major world wide issues and what affects they have on us. It helps student understand what it means to be British and give them a sound footing to go out into the world with.

muslims need to realise that the kuffar are frightened of us and our strength of faith, these lessons and talking of lack of integration is meant for us, it is us they are trying to change and we should not make it easy for them by sending our youth along to political and cultural indoctrination classes.
The lessons are far from indoctrinating. If they wanted to indoctrinate, the last thing they would do is explain exactly how the country is run and where people stand and the rights they are entitled to.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
People should learn the history of the country they live in.

They should also learn the history of how their country has affected others, and learn about other countries. A good grasp of history can make a well-rounded individual.
:thumbs_up
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England
01-27-2007, 09:50 PM
This "Britishness" thing is a result of British-born Islamic terrorists that have and are attempting to blow up Britain and its innocent civilians. There is no loyalty to this country or pride and that can even spread to the moderate muslims too. If there is no loyalty or pride then these British-born Islamic terrorists will not think twice to blow it up.
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Skillganon
01-27-2007, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
This "Britishness" thing is a result of British-born Islamic terrorists that have and are attempting to blow up Britain and its innocent civilians. There is no loyalty to this country or pride and that can even spread to the moderate muslims too. If there is no loyalty or pride then these British-born Islamic terrorists will not think twice to blow it up.
not according to Islam they can't. That is the funny thing.

Trust me britishness would not stop wrong from happening. If that was the case our primeminister needs a lesson in britishness, whatever that maybe.
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England
01-27-2007, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
not according to Islam they can't. That is the funny thing.

Trust me britishness would not stop wrong from happening. If that was the case our primeminister needs a lesson in britishness, whatever that maybe.
Doing nothing would be wrong. Something must be done to teach people to respect this country. That doesn't mean running around the streets waving the union jack, although feel free. But the objective should be to respect this country and its people, be them Christians, muslims, Sikhs or JEWS.
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Skillganon
01-27-2007, 10:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Doing nothing would be wrong. Something must be done to teach people to respect this country. That doesn't mean running around the streets waving the union jack, although feel free. But the objective should be to respect this country and its people, be them Christians, muslims, Sikhs or JEWS.
You mean teach them morals and ethics?

I am all for that.

Speaking for muslim, Islam teaches that.
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Sabbir_1
01-27-2007, 10:34 PM
thing is a result of British-born Islamic terrorists that have and are attempting to blow up Britain and its innocent civilians
They would of become British born Islamic terrorists, if Britain and America had'nt invaded Muslim countries....
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Keltoi
01-27-2007, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by khalil27
They would of become British born Islamic terrorists, if Britain and America had'nt invaded Muslim countries....
Not sure this makes sense...but hardly on topic anyway.
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FBI
01-27-2007, 10:40 PM
:sl:

respect
In other words loyalty to the goverment no matter what am I right?
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Keltoi
01-27-2007, 10:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

In other words loyalty to the goverment no matter what am I right?
How about loyalty to the people of Great Britain?
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sudais1
01-28-2007, 02:04 AM
My Britishness they also dont mean Religious values right ?
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strider
01-28-2007, 10:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sudais1
My Britishness they also dont mean Religious values right ?
Being tolerance of differences, yes.
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Durrah
01-28-2007, 11:54 AM
:sl:

Personally i think this whole 'britishness' idea and concept is more english-centric as opposed to being about the whole of britian. When people talk about britian, british values, british way of life, most times they're really talking about england really. I've seen nothing so far which encompasses scotland, northern ireland or wales, their people or their vaules etc..

I think before anything can be done on this, britishness has to be defined better and to reflect the whole of the britian isles and not just the english, who happen to be the louder, gobbier and more 'powerful' then the others.
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FBI
01-28-2007, 11:58 AM
:sl:

How about loyalty to the people of Great Britain?
In what context?
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England
01-28-2007, 12:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

In other words loyalty to the goverment no matter what am I right?
Not even I have loyalty to the present government. I myself find them all to be a bunch of *bleep*

You know exactly what I'm saying so stop trying to steer it.
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FBI
01-28-2007, 12:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Not even I have loyalty to the present government. I myself find them all to be a bunch of *bleep*

You know exactly what I'm saying so stop trying to steer it.
Actually I don't wanna fill me in :rolleyes:
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England
01-28-2007, 12:34 PM
It's fairly simple :confused: Respect the country and its people. It's not a trick sentence. Everyone else seems to understand it or perhaps you're lapsing a bit on the understanding level of the English language.
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FBI
01-28-2007, 12:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
It's fairly simple :confused: Respect the country and its people. It's not a trick sentence. Everyone else seems to understand it or perhaps you're lapsing a bit on the understanding level of the English language.

:sl:

But u see that's such an ambigious statement, again I ask under what context, do u expect muslims to die for king and country or never to take arms against england?
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PSmuslim
01-28-2007, 12:45 PM
How about teaching the law of Britain instead of Britishness :).
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England
01-28-2007, 12:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

But u see that's such an ambigious statement, again I ask under what context, do u expect muslims to die for king and country or never to take arms against england?
I expect every citizen to fight for their country if this Isle was attacked and invaded. In this country's time of need I would expect every citizen to fight the invaders, but I don't expect everyone to join the army for needless wars like Iraq and Afghanistan.
Respect the laws of the land, don't try to change them. Treat this country as your home, treat the people as your neighbours. Fairly simple. Lose the hatred for Western countries.

If I had asked you if you respect Iran or Pakistan you wouldn't even ask for the context. You'd know exactly what I'm talking about.
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FBI
01-28-2007, 01:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
I expect every citizen to fight for their country if this Isle was attacked and invaded. In this country's time of need I would expect every citizen to fight the invaders, but I don't expect everyone to join the army for needless wars like Iraq and Afghanistan.
Respect the laws of the land, don't try to change them. Treat this country as your home, treat the people as your neighbours. Fairly simple. Lose the hatred for Western countries.

If I had asked you if you respect Iran or Pakistan you wouldn't even ask for the context. You'd know exactly what I'm talking about.
:sl:

Actaully I would've of, Treating Neigbours well is an islamic obligation.I will abdie by the laws of the land while I reside here, fighting for nationalism is prohibited in islam so I doubt muslims with knowladge would do so.
Reply

England
01-28-2007, 01:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

Actaully I would've of, Treating Neigbours well is an islamic obligation.I will abdie by the laws of the land while I reside here, fighting for nationalism is prohibited in islam so I doubt muslims with knowladge would do so.

You mean fighting for your country, which you say would be nationalism is prohibited in Islam? Is fighting to protect your home prohibited in Islam? Are you saying you would let the invaders take your homeland? So then, Iranians, Iraqis, Pakistanis, and other middle eastern nations you support fighting for their country are not real muslims. They're not following the religion correctly. How dare them, "God will make judgement on these people." The real practice of the religion is to let the invaders take your home, attack your fellow people without a fight. Just lay down and watch :rolleyes:

No wonder why people are so confused with Islam.
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FBI
01-28-2007, 01:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
You mean fighting for your country, which you say would be nationalism is prohibited in Islam? Is fighting to protect your home prohibited in Islam? Are you saying you would let the invaders take your homeland? So then, Iranians, Iraqis, Pakistanis, and other middle eastern nations fighting for their country are not real muslims. They're not following the religion correctly. How dare them, "God will make judgement on these people." The real practice of the religion is to let the invaders take your home, attack your fellow people without a fight. Just lay down and watch :rolleyes:

No wonder why people are so confused with Islam.
Firstly you presume too much, What I ment by what I said it's haraam to kill someone for political reseasons. we've gone off-topic btw.
Reply

England
01-28-2007, 01:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
Firstly you presume too much, What I ment by what I said it's haraam to kill someone for political reseasons. we've gone off-topic btw.
I also explained that I don't expect people to join the army to fight in needless wars such as Iraq and Afghanistan. But I do expect everyone to fight to protect their home, their country.

Moving on.
Reply

FBI
01-28-2007, 01:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
I also explained that I don't expect people to join the army to fight in needless wars such as Iraq and Afghanistan. But I do expect everyone to fight to protect their home.

Moving on.
I understand.
Reply

Skillganon
01-28-2007, 01:22 PM
Engand you are not British enough. lol. You need a lesson in Britishness. LOL.
Reply

England
01-28-2007, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
Engand you are not British enough. lol. You need a lesson in Britishness. LOL.
I'd quite honestly find it interesting. I wouldn't mind the lessons. :okay:
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Bittersteel
01-28-2007, 06:14 PM
I strongly disapprove of learning history in the recent French style you know.
Reply

Fishman
01-28-2007, 07:53 PM
:sl:
I would only want to fight 'for king and Country' if I thought that Britian was fighting for a good cause. I would never willingly join the army today unless we were going to Sudan to stop the Jingaweed or something.
:w:
Reply

FBI
01-28-2007, 08:02 PM
:sl:

'for king and Country'
Remember bro, your intention must always be fisibililah.
Reply

Fishman
01-28-2007, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

Remember bro, your intention must always be fisibililah.
:sl:
Exactly. That's why I put the inverted commas around it.

If a Muslim joined WWII on the side of Britain, intending to fight tyranny and evil, would that be considered Jihaad?
:w:
Reply

England
01-28-2007, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I would only want to fight 'for king and Country' if I thought that Britian was fighting for a good cause. I would never willingly join the army today unless we were going to Sudan to stop the Jingaweed or something.
:w:
I wasn't talking about joining the army to fight wars that don't even concern us. I am against that myself. I wouldn't fight for this country in a war such as Iraq and Afghanistan, although medically I'm unable to do so. But if someone tried to invade or attack my home then I would willingly fight as would anyone else with sense.
Reply

Fishman
01-28-2007, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
I wasn't talking about joining the army to fight wars that don't even concern us. I am against that myself. I wouldn't fight for this country in a war such as Iraq and Afghanistan, although medically I'm unable to do so. But if someone tried to invade or attack my home then I would willingly fight as would anyone else with sense.
:sl:
What if this country was run by a Neo-Nazi dictatorship, and America invaded us to depose them? Would you still fight for Britain?
:w:
Reply

England
01-28-2007, 08:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
What if this country was run by a Neo-Nazi dictatorship, and America invaded us to depose them? Would you still fight for Britain?
:w:
I'd only fight for my home. If that neo-nazi dictator posed a threat to my homeland and our people then I would support war against that dictatorship.
Reply

Idris
01-28-2007, 08:36 PM
This "Britishness" thing is a result of British-born Islamic terrorists that have and are attempting to blow up Britain and its innocent civilians. There is no loyalty to this country or pride and that can even spread to the moderate muslims too. If there is no loyalty or pride then these British-born Islamic terrorists will not think twice to blow it up.
I wasn't talking about joining the army to fight wars that don't even concern us. I am against that myself. I wouldn't fight for this country in a war such as Iraq and Afghanistan, although medically I'm unable to do so. But if someone tried to invade or attack my home then I would willingly fight as would anyone else with sense.
Maybe that's why "there is no loyalty to this country or pride" and "Islamic terrorists" are "blow up Britain and its innocent civilians".

Moderate muslims
Now that's a word I just don't get ... what the hell is a Moderate Muslim?

Have you seen someone using the word a Moderate Jew or a Moderate Christian or maybe a Moderate homosexual. What wrong with using a Muslim?

Next it going to be ethnic cleansing your with us (Moderate Muslim) or a Muslim terrorists.
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Dawud_uk
01-29-2007, 08:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I assume you are referring to the memo which ponders the possibility of using gas to stop a rebellion? Not his grandest idea obviously, but it didn't occur.
ask a kurd whether they were bombs with mustard gas from planes during the iraqi rebellions against british rule. yes they did occur.
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-29-2007, 08:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
I'd only fight for my home. If that neo-nazi dictator posed a threat to my homeland and our people then I would support war against that dictatorship.
but england, please try to understand that is exactly how the muslims feel about their present rulers? a bunch of tinpot dictators and kings imposed on them by the leaving colonial powers.

so let me ask you this question, if france invaded britain, you and i would be fighting on the same side as defending your home against agression is an obligation in islam.

now if france won and imposed a strict french style fascist government, then would you consider not only attacking the french occupying forces here in the uk but also in france also if you had the means available?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-29-2007, 08:25 AM
i still dont feel the non muslims on here have been able to answer the question, if schools are to teach britishness then what is britishness so the rest of us can decide if this is a good thing or not?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
01-29-2007, 01:51 PM
Don't call us British, we're from England

by Matthew Hickley

The number of people describing themselves as "British" is plummetting amid fears for the future of the United Kingdom.

A major survey of social attitudes among 3,000 Britons reveals a dramatic surge in people who see themselves first and foremost as "English" - in an apparent reaction to nationalism and devolution in Scotland and Wales.

While the British identity is in decline, so is the traditional importance of church and political party in people's sense of who they are.

By contrast class appears to be alive and well.

While the working class appears to be shrinking and the middle class is growing, there is no sign of any breakdown in the traditional distinctions with almost everyone feeling they belong to one or the other.

The undermining of the 'British' identity has potentially far-reaching consequences for the political map of the nation.

A recent Daily Mail poll revealed that most voters in both Scotland and England want the two countries to split apart - or failing that for England to have its own parliament to decide English policies without interference from Scottish MPs.

The potential break-up of the 300-year-old union threatens to present Chancellor Gordon Brown with a constitutional crisis if he becomes Prime Minister, and he will fight hard to preserve the union.

Independence for Scotland - and an end to Scottish MPs, including Mr Brown, voting in Westminster - would devastate Labour's position south of the border.

While the Tories also support the union they are calling for reforms to address the so-called West Lothian Question - namely why Scottish MPs should still be allowed to vote on purely English domestic policy in Westminster while English MPs have no say over devolved Scottish affairs such as education.

The British Social Attitudes survey has been carried out by the National Centre for Social Research since 1983, and today's publication marks the 23rd set of results.

Other key findings include a marked shift away from support for civil liberties, with Britons increasingly willing to give up hard-fought freedoms for the sake of tackling terrorism.

Plotting the decline of the British identity, the report warns of potentially damaging consequences for society, with people becoming less likely to show a "willingness to die for their communities", or to feel an obligation towards fellow citizens, especially those in need.

Possible reasons include globalisation and international links - "most strikingly through the developing institutions of the European Union" - as well as the decline of the bonds which originally held the different parts of the United Kingdom together: a shared Protestant faith and the common endeavour of building and running the British Empire.

Over the past decade the proportion of people in the UK describing their nationality first and foremost as British has fallen from 52 to 44 per cent.

In England the trend has been sharper, down from 63 to 48 per cent, while those who see themselves mostly as "English" have risen from 31 to 40 per cent since 1992.

In Scotland the proportion of people who feel "British" has dropped from 31 to 14 per cent since 1974, but the trend happened earlier than in England.

The report states: "Already relatively weak in Scotland and Wales, 'Britishness' appears now to have lost some ground in England to a sense of feeling English instead."

English respondents voiced "an apparently growing wish in the wake of Scottish and Welsh devolution to assert an English rather than a British identity."

Researchers found that 94 per cent still feel part of a particular class - the same proportion as in 1964.

The proportion describing themselves as "working class" has dropped from 64 to 57 per cent, while the middle class has risen from 30 to 37 per cent.

But many people still describe themselves as "working class" based on their origins and upbringing, even if they now have traditionally "middle class" jobs such as teachers or accountants.

"For many people their class identity is still a 'given' identity that was formed when they were growing up," the report states.

The study also reveals a rapid decline in loyalty to political parties, down from 46 per cent feeling a "very" or "fairly" strong allegiance in 1987 to 35 per cent now.

Researchers claim this trend could have "real consequences" for Britain's political system, with lower turnouts at elections and more volatile voting patterns.

Formal membership of religions is also falling fast.

The proportion of people saying they had no religion or never attended services has soared from 26 per cent in 1964 to 69 per cent now, and even those who claim to be religious are less likely to go to church regularly - down from 75 per cent to just half.

Studying attitudes to work-life balance, researchers found that more women are working longer hours - closing the gap with men - with the result that families as a whole are under more pressure.

"Work has become more intense in Britain," the report states.

"Stress at work is increasing across the board, and is now particularly common amongst managerial and professional employees."

But with stress levels rising among part-time workers, the study questions whether so-called "flexible" working is the key to better work-life balance, and suggests policy-makers should focus more on cutting stress levels.

Historian Correlli Barnnett said it was wrong to assume that citizens had to make a choice between being British or English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish.

He said: "For my part I always fill in forms as being English.

"I feel that is my basic nationality, and I am very happy to belong to the larger club that is Britishness."

He added: "This trend away from Britishness may be a reaction to globalisation.

"Perhaps, confronted with global pressures, we want to feel local loyalties. There's no reason we shouldn't take pride in the county we come from - Yorkshire, Lancashire or Norfolk - and in our feelings of Englishness or Scottishness, and still be British."

Author and commentator Frederick Forsyth said: "I think most of this is a mood, and moods come and go.

"We still talk about British troops fighting abroad. We talk about British ambassadors.

"It's only at home within these islands that this quibbling arises.

"The union is positive. The cement of the monarchy is positive.

"The political pygmies who want to break up the nation simply want to grab a bit of power."


Source
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-29-2007, 02:02 PM
so looking at the above we have as britishness,

a shared protestant faith,
building of the empire
and the monarchy.

surely someone can do better than that?
i feel no tug of affection towards any of those things, if that is what is britishness then count me out.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Bittersteel
01-29-2007, 04:10 PM
so the UK isn't breaking up?hmmm..too bad,I would have liked that to see for my own reasons.
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-29-2007, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
so the UK isn't breaking up?hmmm..too bad,I would have liked that to see for my own reasons.
i would say there is a 20-30% chance of scotland breaking away, but they know they are not financially stable on their own but if the scotish nationalists win a couple elections in a row its a bigger posibility.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

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