Holocaust: Facts + Figures

[AzizMostafa]

1. Aside from the shot-to-death, how many Jews were gassed?
2. What kind of Gas was used?
3. Were there gas-generating laboratories near the camps?
4. How was the gas pumped into the camps? Through Pipes?
5. How did the gassing take place?
6. How many mass graves discovered so far?
7. How well Camps were sealed to prevent gas leak out?
_______________________________________________
7 Short+comprehensive answers are sought!
No more, No less + No link please.

[Woodrow]

I'm just going to state what I remember from stories told to me by returning GI's that were among the first Americans to go into the Death Camps. Two of them being my uncles, who were young. My unclle Janick was 20 and my Uncle Vladimir was 22.


1. Aside from the shot-to-death, how many Jews were gassed?

My uncles did not see any evidence of any being shot. Yanick was under the impression that many of them were starved to death. Simply locked in the cells and left to die. That was what he saw the most of. Vladimir saw many examples of gassing. I believe it was Auswich that he was one of the first Americans to enter.

2. What kind of Gas was used?

the gas used was usualy cyanide. It was used in small gas grenades about the size of a cocal cola can. The detonator would be tripped and the chemicals in the can would burn releasing the cyanide. Them used gas containers became popular war trophies after WW2 and many American GI's brought them home as war trophies. Vladimir brought back quite a few. He gave me 5 or 6 as mementos of the war. He said they were on the prison barrack floors by the hundreds. At one of the camps the gassing was more sophisticated. The Barracks were made like dormitories, very nice looking and with large shower rooms, the prisoners would be told to take a shower and when they all entered the shower room, cyanide gas instead of water came out of the showers.

3. Were there gas-generating laboratories near the camps?

No, cyanide requires no lab to generate. The chemicals used to produce it are a very simple proces. You can drop one of the chemicals into sulfuric acid and generate a huge quantity. that is the process that was used here in the US when the gas chamber was the means of execution. The pan of acid was under the chair the person was strapped in and then when the chamber was sealed the capsules were dropped into the pan by a mechanical device.

4. How was the gas pumped into the camps? Through Pipes?

From what I know in most of the camps it was not pumped in, it was just detonating several cyanide grenades in the barracks, with the exception of the camp that had an elaborate shower system

5. How did the gassing take place?
See the remarks above

6. How many mass graves discovered so far?
The vast majority of bodies were cremated and the ashes dumped into huge ash pits. All of the camps had several cremation furnaces that were big. Some of the camps could cremate several hundred bodies at a time. I believe the largest pile of Human ashes is at Auswitz and weighs many tons.

7. How well Camps were sealed to prevent gas leak out?
Not very well, safety did not seem to be a concern. Cyanide dissipates quite rapidly in the air.
_______________________________________________
7 Short+comprehensive answers are sought!
No more, No less + No link please.

[Trumble]

On 2, 3, 4;

The gas used was hydrogen cyanide in the form of 'Zyclon B'. It was actually a commercial pesticide that had first been used at Auschwitz for vermin control. The Zyclon B used in the gas chambers was produced in the same factories as the commercial pesticide, essentially just the same stuff with the warning smell removed. It was in the form of solid crystals that reacted when exposed to air to produce the gas so was easy to transport and store in containers, and neither local manufacturing facilities, pipes or pumping were necessary other than ventilating the gas into the outside air. As Woodrow said, they weren't fussy, and outside of the closed chamber the dispersed gas was not hazardous.

Initially it was just a case of opening the canisters and sealing the doors. Later, when the large gas chambers were built, the Zyclon B was just poured into the chamber.

On 1.; there is no accurate figure for obvious reasons but the best estimate is around 3.5 to 4 million (gassed). An estimated 1.5 million were gassed at Auschwitz, as were another half million Romani, and both Polish and Soviet PoWs. On one occasion 9,000 were murdered in one day, according to the official Auschwitz records.

[Woodrow]

Thanks for the info Trumble. The depleted canisters I had as a kid looked a lot like CN/DM grenades. I just assumed they worked the same way by igniting the chemicals.

I just took a quick glance at ZyclonB, you are correct. Effective, cheap, easy to transport and store.

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[Agnostic]

I believe later in the war when when German resource's were low they began to use diesel engines to pump the exhaust into the chambers to suffocate the prisoners. My Father said he saw evidents of this when he saw some of the camps for himself.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^wow thats just...horrible...:X

[AzizMostafa]

> ... the best estimate is around 3.5 to 4 million (gassed).

Thanks, Trumble. So:
Three.5 Million Jews were gassed to death in 52 months (WWII: September 1939 - May 1945)
On the average = 3,000,000 / 52 / 31 / 24 = 77 per hour = 4 Jews were killed every 3 minutes.
Faster than making 3,000,000 passengers just get into + SAFELY out of a Virtual STNDING Train with that Capacity.
How Quick the 2Gs (Gas + German) were!
________________________________
May All the Gassed Jews rest in peace

[Trumble]

Three.5 Million Jews were gassed to death in 52 months (WWII: September 1939 - May 1945)
On the average = 3,000,000 / 52 / 31 / 24 = 77 per hour = 4 Jews were killed every 3 minutes.
Faster than making 3,000,000 passengers just get into + SAFELY out of a Virtual STNDING Train with that Capacity.
How Quick the 2Gs (Gas + German) were!

It wasn't that long, actually. It didn't start in numbers until 1941. As I said, the 'record' at Auschwitz was around 9,000 in a day. Auschwitz was one of six such camps. Hopefully maths teaching in Iran is better than the 'history' teaching.

What you need to understand is that, much as I am loathe to consider mass murder in such terms, as an 'industrial' process (which it became) death on that scale was relatively easy for the Germans. Real-estate and labour was, to all intents and purposes, free. Manufacturing of the 'facilities' involved was trivial compared with the levels of weapons production at the same time.

[AzizMostafa]

> It wasn't that long, actually. It didn't start in numbers until 1941.

That is according to Russia. 52 months was the average of the 2 different calculations.
Three instead of 3.5 Million and approximation was done to make it more digestible?!

> As I said, the 'record' at Auschwitz was around 9,000 in a day.

Of course, the more the camps, the more the intake, the lesser the time, but the average is average.
Saying:
(9000/24/60) x 40 = 250 Jews were gassed per minute in 40 camps? Or:
(9000/24/60) x 400 = 2500 Jews were gassed per minute in 400 camps?
does not change the average of the Jews gassed per minute in a camp?
Or was the phrase "in a camp" necessary to be added?!
Hopefully your Maths is better than your History learning.
And with due modesty, I finished Communication ENgineering in 1979 in Iraq (not Iran).
_____________________________
Regards with Flowers

[Trumble]

My math is just fine, thanks, as is my history.

I'm not sure what point you are actually trying to make. Your comment was that

On the average = 3,000,000 / 52 / 31 / 24 = 77 per hour = 4 Jews were killed every 3 minutes.
Faster than making 3,000,000 passengers just get into + SAFELY out of a Virtual STNDING Train with that Capacity.
How Quick the 2Gs (Gas + German) were!

.. which I took as indicating some skepticism towards the figure I quoted, rather than as a simple statement of fact. Maybe the fact your profile says you are in Iran led me to the wrong conclusion; that country and it's President are, of course, notorious for politically motivated Holocaust 'revisionism'. I certainly wasn't questioning your arithmetic!

My response was only to make clear that sadly they were that "quick", together with a brief indication as to why.

[Woodrow]

I have no Idea as to how many were killed and I doubt if anybody will know the exact number. But I am convinced that there were at least 2 camps that were extremely effective killing factories, Dachau and Auswitz. From the set up they were high speed high capacity facilities designed with the efficiency of any automobile factory in the world.

The simple fact that they were if designed as such, is a horror in itself even if they had not been used. It is a horror that we should never forget. History has a tendency to repeat itself if it is forgotten. Next time it can be you and me that are sent to a death camp, if we ever let our guard down and ignore the ease with which it happened.

[rav]

Holocaust: The Auschwitz Gas Chambers

"There was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see, they are bringing children now'. They opened the door, threw the children in and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn't look at my wife for four weeks."

From the testimony of SS private Boeck (Langbein, quoted in Pressac, 181)

[rav]

I suggest this for reading material:

http://www.nizkor.org/

[AzizMostafa]

Rav and others, please dig from wherever you like, then summarize it here. This is how we help one another?!

Trumble, I represent nobody save myself.
__________________________
Thanking All for not pointing to any link with Flowers

[rav]

Rav and others, please dig from wherever you like, then summarize it here. This is how we help one another?!

Trumble, I represent nobody save myself.
__________________________
Thanking All for not pointing to any link with Flowers

Aziz, how are you from Iran and on this site when I believe I have read one of our members was in Iran and found out this site was banned. Just curious.

Anyway, I have family, basically all of them, that died in the Holocaust, except a few. The ones that survived saw the mass gasings, the shootings, the burnings, the torture.

Why do you care so much about the Holocaust, because of your president? How about you explain why.

[north_malaysian]

Aziz, how are you from Iran and on this site when I believe I have read one of our members was in Iran and found out this site was banned. Just curious.

He's an Iraqi living in Iran, and had been teaching Arabic to Malaysian children years ago.... :okay:

[north_malaysian]

I've seen the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. featured in "5 Takes:USA" via Discovery Travel and Living channel...

I would like to go there... it's so touching...:cry:

Are there any Holocaust memorials or museums in Asia-Pacific region?

[thirdwatch512]

when i was in germany last summer, i visited a holocaust camp... and i saw the gas chambers, and in the walls you could see nail marks because people were being gassed to death and trying to escape. i can only imagine how horrible that must have been. never in my life had i cried so much until i visited that concentration camp. just seeing those gas chambers, and this and that.. it was terrible.

and it wasn't just jews either. homosexuals were gassed, mentally challenged, and catholics.

the nazi's would even make the parents shoot their own children.. isn't that just terrible?

[AzizMostafa]

> Aziz, how are you from Iran and on this site when I believe I have read
> one of our members was in Iran and found out this site was banned. Just curious.

Just look again:
http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...-l-i-iran.html

> Anyway, I have family, basically all of them, that died in the Holocaust, except a few.
> The ones that survived saw the mass gasings, the shootings, the burnings, the torture.

Sorry to hear about that. Hope all the murdered rest in peace.

> Why do you care so much about the Holocaust, because of your president? How about you explain why.

My President has to care about the Holocaust in Iraq, because of US+UK presence? Needless to explain why he —and those of the same wavelength — have been shaking hands with the yesterday Makers + Breakers of the pulled-out-of-the-hole ex-president!

[AzizMostafa]

Thanks Thirdwatch512 + North_malaysian for sharing your observations.
Just 5 Questions:
1. What was the dimension —capacity— of the largest Gas Chambers you saw?
2. What are the Doors/Gates of the Chambers made of?
3. Did you see any locked Chamber? or any lock?
4. What kind of nails do the marks reveal? 2 or 3-headed Curved nails?
5. Did you notice any other mark other than the nails?
Thanks

[Woodrow]

:sl: Brother,

Your thread is very interesting. However as a moderator of this section I am curious as to what your intent is. I am wondering as to what relationship it has to current world affairs?

Are you aware that except for only one or 2 of us, none of the other members were living during WW2 and do not know any eye witnesses to the holocaust or spoke directly to people that had seen the Camps as they were in 1945 or earlier? Nobody presently on this forum can give you an actual eye witness account.



1. What is your purpose for this thread?

2. Is there any specific bit of information you are looking for?

3. Is this the proper location for this thread?

[Dawud_uk]

non of the evils the nazis performed justify israel. israel is just a nazi state itself, a vicious state based upon ethnicity and military power.

Abu Abdullah

[Dawud_uk]

'Zyclon B'

there is one of the ironies of history. invented by a jewish scientist at the end of WWI to gas other humans, admittedly in a war setting.

but then used upon the man's own people. sick irony of history.

Abu Abdullah

[Woodrow]

non of the evils the nazis performed justify israel. israel is just a nazi state itself, a vicious state based upon ethnicity and military power.

Abu Abdullah

'Zyclon B'

there is one of the ironies of history. invented by a jewish scientist at the end of WWI to gas other humans, admittedly in a war setting.

but then used upon the man's own people. sick irony of history.

Abu Abdullah

I can not add anything to both of those. Mans inhumanity to man defies all logic.

[rav]

israel is just a nazi state itself,

Why are they currently rounding up Palestinians and gasing them and then burning them into ashes? Do you think Israel has the capacity to kill many more Palestinians then they do with these little retaliatory air strikes? Why not do it, if they are a Nazi state?

'Zyclon B'

there is one of the ironies of history. invented by a jewish scientist at the end of WWI to gas other humans, admittedly in a war setting.

but then used upon the man's own people. sick irony of history.

Right, what should that have to do with anything? Are you saying that because a man who was born of Jewish parents was a big help in creating the gas, Jews deserved to die? I mean, should Muslims then all die from a certain suicide bomb because a Muslim made it? Your logic makes no sense. Do you know how many chemicals were created during WWI? Many. Because Germany told a Jew to make one, doesn't in my mind register as anything seeing how after they told him to make it, he was later deported and killed along with most of his family because of Nazi Germany.

By your logic, any terrible thing invented by a Muslim scientist would be an irony of history if millions of Muslims died from it, your post tries to take away the responsiblity of the people who pulled the trigger or released the gas on humans.

[Dawud_uk]

Why are they currently rounding up Palestinians and gasing them and then burning them into ashes? Do you think Israel has the capacity to kill many more Palestinians then they do with these little retaliatory air strikes? Why not do it, if they are a Nazi state?

no, but they're actions are evil and unjust in the same manner, though not to the same degree.

Right, what should that have to do with anything? Are you saying that because a man who was born of Jewish parents was a big help in creating the gas, Jews deserved to die? I mean, should Muslims then all die from a certain suicide bomb because a Muslim made it? Your logic makes no sense. Do you know how many chemicals were created during WWI? Many. Because Germany told a Jew to make one, doesn't in my mind register as anything seeing how after they told him to make it, he was later deported and killed along with most of his family because of Nazi Germany.

By your logic, any terrible thing invented by a Muslim scientist would be an irony of history if millions of Muslims died from it, your post tries to take away the responsiblity of the people who pulled the trigger or released the gas on humans.

i said no such thing, that is your own conclusion. i would completely disagree with such a conclusion but i am just pointing out a jew working for a nationalistic german state ended up inventing the means of many of his peoples own destruction but that justify it or lay the blame for the crime anywhere else but on the shoulders of those who did it.

Abu Abdullah

[AzizMostafa]

Am still Confused.
1. Were the bodies burnt after gassing or in the process of gassing?
2. Did those who escaped the Holocaust disguise as non-Jews to save themselves? Or how?
3. How did the nazi's recognize the homosexuals? Were they marked or caught on-the-play?

[Woodrow]

1. Were the bodies burnt after gassing or in the process of gassing?
From the stories I heard most likely they were all cremated after the gasing.

2. Did those who escaped the Holocaust disguise as non-Jews to save themselves? Or how?

the majority did not escape and were not freed until the camps were occupied by the allied forces. I do not recall ever reading or hearing of any person who managed to escape from any of the Death camps. Not all were sent to the death camps, the heatlhiest and strongest were placed into labor camps and the coal mines. Many of them were never if aware of the existance of the death camps. Some people did manage to escape being identified as jews, most of those were blond, blue eyed converts. some of the women were sent to the front lines as sex slaves to the soldiers, some of those escaped the death camps.

3. How did the nazi's recognize the homosexuals? Were they marked or caught on-the-play?

That I do not know, not all of them were sent to the camps. It is known that Hitler was very Homophobic and that he removed Rommel from the European theater and sent him to North Africa because he suspected Rommel of being gay and he did not want to look at him.

The death camps were also used against Muslims, Negros, Jehovah Witnesses and some Catholics. although it can be shown that very many people were executed it is nearly impossible to tell what percentage was not Jewish.

Most likely if the war had not eneded it would have been extended to everybody that did not have blond hair, blue eyes and did not show loyalty to the Nazi party.

[Trumble]

'Zyclon B'
there is one of the ironies of history. invented by a jewish scientist at the end of WWI to gas other humans, admittedly in a war setting.

It was invented as a pesticide for de-lousing, not to "gas other humans". Other than in closed chambers it was completely unsuitable for that purpose (compare with Mustard Gas).

[rav]

1. Were the bodies burnt after gassing or in the process of gassing?

In essence, well-nourished corpses were burned with emaciated ones in order to determine the most efficient combination. Three to four bodies were burned at a time, and different kinds of coke were used, then the results were recorded:

Afterwards, all corpses were divided into the above-mentioned catagories, the criterion being the amount of coke required to reduce them to ashes. Thus it was decreed that the most economical and fuel-saving procedure would be to burn the bodies of a well-nourished man and an emaciated woman, or vice versa, together with that of a child, because, as the experiments had established, in this combination, once they had caught fire, the dead would continue to burn without any further coke being required.
( Müller, 60-61; Klarsfield, 99-100)

The need for large-scale efficiency, to cope with the astounding number of corpses produced by the gas chambers, eventually led to the design and construction of new crematoria, and daily capacity rose from as low as six hundred forty eight per day ( Müller's 1942 figure) to a high of over ten thousand ( Höss, Gricksch), but, as Feig tells us, the SS eventually had to employ large pyres and pits to dispose of the mounting pile of corpses:

As early as June 13, 1943, all was not well with the new installation. ... Eventually the ovens seemed to fall apart. Crematorium Four failed completely after a short time and Crematoria Five had to be shut down repeatedly. (TWC, V:624) (Between 1945 and 1962 Polish officials found five manuscripts written by Sonderkommando members before their deaths. The published manuscripts and documents relate to the specific process of extermination at Birkenau, and provide detailed descriptions of the crematoria and gas chambers.)

The scientifically planned crematoria should have been able to handle the total project, but they could not. The whole complex had forty-six retorts, each with the capacity for three to five persons. The burning in a retort lasted about half an hour. It took an hour a day to clean them out. Thus it was theoretically possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses in twenty four hours or 4,380,000 a year.

But the well-constructed crematoria fell far behind at a number of camps, and especially at Auschwitz in 1944. In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of 24,000, but still a bottleneck occurred. Camp authorities needed an economic and fast method of corpse disposal, so they again dug six huge pits beside Crematorium Five and reopened old pits in the wood. Thus, late in 1944, pit burning became the chief method of corpse disposal. The pits had indentations at one end from which human fat drained off. To keep the pits burning, the stokers poured oil, alcohol, and large quantities of boiling human fat over the bodies.

2. Did those who escaped the Holocaust disguise as non-Jews to save themselves? Or how?

Basically, yes. Or they got out before they started completly rounding up Jews.

3. How did the nazi's recognize the homosexuals? Were they marked or caught on-the-play?

if you were not open about it, they could not tell. People who were open about it, might have been snitched on though when the Nazi's came into power.

[thirdwatch512]

non of the evils the nazis performed justify israel. israel is just a nazi state itself, a vicious state based upon ethnicity and military power.

Abu Abdullah

first off, let's just discuss news that has happened in israel today..

1. the first muslim has been elected into a major office in the israeli government

and

2. today 3 innocent jews were killed while at a bakery for no reason what so ever. the attack was supposed to be much bigger as well.

i do agree that israel needs to get out of the west bank and gaza, and they need to lay off of some of their horrid actions, but you have got to admit.. it it was the muslims who went through the holocaust, and the jews were in iasrael and the muslims located there after the holocaust, don't you think that you would support the muslims, even if they have done some of the actions israel has doen?

israel and the palestinian government have done disgusting things. and they need to cease doing it. the jews need to realize the muslims aren't going anywhere, and the muslims need to realize the jews aren't.

[Dawud_uk]

what has the killing of the millions of jews in europe got to do with taking land from the muslims of the middle east? that is just crazy talk to think one justifies the other.

[AzizMostafa]

> .. Thus it was decreed that the most economical and fuel-saving procedure would be to burn the bodies of a well-nourished man and an emaciated woman, or vice versa, together with that of a child, because, as the experiments had established, in this combination, once they had caught fire, the dead would continue to burn without any further coke being required.
( Müller, 60-61; Klarsfield, 99-100)

> ... The burning in a retort lasted about half an hour. It took an hour a day to clean them out...

Rav, where I can find that kind of coke? Why? I want to experiment this gain:

I sacrificed a chick + hen + cock. Then I pushed the chick through the axel of my oven
and surrounded it with 1/2 hen and 1/2 cock and locked the combination on the axel.
Thanks to the cheap high-pressure gas piped to Iranian houses, I set the knob to the maximum.
But it took more than 5 hours to reduce the combination into ashes?!

[north_malaysian]

According to Shaikh Wikipedia:

The victims of the holocaust:

* Jews (7,000,000)
* Russians (5,000,000)
* Poles (3,000,000)
* Ukrainians (3,000,000)
* Belarusians (1,500,000)
* Serbs (1,200,000)
* Gypsies (800,000)
* Bosniaks (500,000)
* Germans (530,000 - disabled 300,000, freemasons 200,000, homosexuals 25,000, jehovah's witnesses 5,000, communists, trade unionists, catholic & protestant clergy, rich people, prostitutes, vagrants, alcoholics, drug addicts, pacifists, astrologers, tobacco salespeople, feminists)
* Africans (Blacks and North African Arabs)
* Asians (mostly Chinese but excluding the Japanese)
* Mestizos from Latin America (mostly Mexicans)

TOTAL DEAD: 11,000,000 to 26,000,000

[north_malaysian]

first off, let's just discuss news that has happened in israel today..

1. the first muslim has been elected into a major office in the israeli government
.

Actually Majadleh is the first Sunni to be in the Israeli cabinet.

Because some of us considered Druzes as Muslims.

Salah Tarafi could be the first Muslim minister.... (in 2001)

[north_malaysian]

Famous Muslims that helped the Jews escaping the holocaust:

1. Shqyri Myrto (Albanian) - saved two jews

2. Necdet Kent (Turkish) - Turkish citizenships granted to hundreds of Jews in France. He risk himself by entering an Auschwitz-bound train to save 70 Jews by giving them Turkish citizenships..

3. Namik Kemal Yolga (Turkish) - saved numerous jews from deportation in France

4. Selahattin Ulkumen (Turkish) - saved 200 Jews from island of Rhodes

5. Abdol-Hossein Sardari (Iranian) - saved many Iranian Jews and gave 500 blank Iranian passports to Non-Iranian Jews in order to escape in France

DO YOU THINK THAT THESE MUSLIMS WOULD DENY HOLOCAUST?

[Dawud_uk]

Actually Majadleh is the first Sunni to be in the Israeli cabinet.

Because some of us considered Druzes as Muslims.

Salah Tarafi could be the first Muslim minister.... (in 2001)

assalaamu alaykum,

the druze are kaffirs, confirmed by the scholars ahlus sunnah and anyone who denies a kaffir is a kaffir is in danger of ruling by other than Allah has revealed possibly and could commit kufr themselves by this.

and any 'sunni' muslim who goes into the israeli cabinet and cooperates with the kuffar and takes them as his awliyah is certainly committing clear and open kufr and the scholars should warn him and if he doesnt listen then takfir should be made upon him as a warning to him and others.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[north_malaysian]

assalaamu alaykum,

the druze are kaffirs,

I've watched last year a documentary by al Jazeera... the Druze religious figures in Lebanon and Syria called themselves as Muslims...

When someone calls himself a muslim, I'll call him a Muslim...

[Woodrow]

> .. Thus it was decreed that the most economical and fuel-saving procedure would be to burn the bodies of a well-nourished man and an emaciated woman, or vice versa, together with that of a child, because, as the experiments had established, in this combination, once they had caught fire, the dead would continue to burn without any further coke being required.
( Müller, 60-61; Klarsfield, 99-100)

> ... The burning in a retort lasted about half an hour. It took an hour a day to clean them out...

Rav, where I can find that kind of coke? Why? I want to experiment this gain:

I sacrificed a chick + hen + cock. Then I pushed the chick through the axel of my oven
and surrounded it with 1/2 hen and 1/2 cock and locked the combination on the axel.
Thanks to the cheap high-pressure gas piped to Iranian houses, I set the knob to the maximum.
But it took more than 5 hours to reduce the combination into ashes?!

Coke heats a lot hotter than natural gas. To find coke visit your local steel mill or foundry. It is the most common material used to melt steel.

This thread is getting to be very warped and I am very suspicious as to the logic for it. I can see no good coming from this discussion.


:threadclo