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YamahaR1
07-11-2005, 06:35 PM
Do you believe the "occupation" forces should leave Iraq now? If so, do you believe that the Iraqis can defend themselves both externally and internally from those who would do harm, and/or end any hopes for a free nation, once again threaten its neighbors and support those who threaten peace of non-muslim nations? And, lastly, if the allied forces left Iraq today, what do you think would happen?
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khilji
07-12-2005, 06:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YamahaR1
Do you believe the "occupation" forces should leave Iraq now? If so, do you believe that the Iraqis can defend themselves both externally and internally from those who would do harm, and/or end any hopes for a free nation, once again threaten its neighbors and support those who threaten peace of non-muslim nations? And, lastly, if the allied forces left Iraq today, what do you think would happen?
I believe the "occupation" forces should not leave Iraq now. But they should, in phases, try to get them out of the streets and checkpoints and keep their behinds in secure camps and barracks and not show their faces to Iraqi people so much. This way they will not get killed and also not antagonize the Iraqi people as much as before. A standing army cannot do diplomacy, distributing candy will only attract bitter attackers that lost their loved ones.

They should not get involved in any kind of negotiations with any groups, these should be left to the Iraqi's.

They should try to train as many good fighting age Iraqi's as possible, while they are inside the barracks. This should be their main job.

They should get involved and help the Iraqi forces, only when it is absolutely necessary, such as in cases where the Iraqi forces may loose a battle and does not have enough fire-power, and it should be done at the request of the present Iraqi government.

Speaking of fire-power, they should start arming Iraqi Army with heavy equipment so that they can cover for their own lightly armed forces.

If they are out of the picture, only then, the Iraqi forces will start getting creative and use their imagination to solve the problem at hand. Spoon feeding will linger the situation.

They also should not manage any jails other than those of high value individuals, such as Saddam and his former high officials.

I think you get the picture, it should be hands off management, just like letting go of a baby in water or letting go of a teen-ager who is trying to bike for the first time. They may drink a little water a few times or fall a few times and get scraped, but eventually they will get the hang of it, if they are left to their own devices.

After the Constitution is successfully done next January and once the "occupation" forces has stayed within their camps without much incident for some time, meaning not having to get involved where Iraqi forces could not handle a situation - then it will be time to reduce forces gradually.

With the current muddled policy, it will take 5 years or more, but if they follow the above principle, it will take around 3 years and no sooner for a complete withdrawal, and as a bonus the casualty count will reduce drastically.

There was a system in place in Iraq, yes it was making Iraqi's life miserable, but the system ensured security and some semblance of order. Since the "occupation" forces broke that system to remove Saddam and the Baath party on false charges of WMD, it is their moral obligation to bring the system back to at least a level where its providing previous level of services to the citizens of Iraq.

In other words, clean up after yourself - if you have made a mess, you should clean it up.

Since the idiot brain-dead Saddam is gone, I believe anybody would have enough sense not to get into foolish adventures like attacking Iran or Kuwait. What non-muslim nations might you be talking about in the near vicinity, I cannot see any except the state of Israel. Only a fool like Saddam would even think of attacking the only nuclear power in Mid-east, who would not hesitate to use it, if its existence is ever threatened.

So much for being an Armchair General, but you asked for an opinion and I obliged.
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Bittersteel
07-12-2005, 06:53 AM
israel has the power to conquer every damn ME country now.
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Mr. Baldy
07-12-2005, 12:49 PM
aslaam alkyum,

yes they shoudl leave NOW. why do you think there are mujahideen on the streets fighting? why do you think there is unrest in abu ghraib? why do you think these bombs went off in london?

the mujahideen dont fight anyone for the fun of it, they are fighting to send a clear message to USA and british, 'we odnt want you in our country'. now you may say that iraq was 'liberated', from what? an apostate regime placed by the west in the first place? they were 'liberated', so why is the death toll so high? why is there innocents in abu ghraib? why are the US coalition going against the geneva convention. your a millitary person, you should know that what they are doing is illegal.

wa alkyum aslaam
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YamahaR1
07-12-2005, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
aslaam alkyum,

yes they shoudl leave NOW. why do you think there are mujahideen on the streets fighting? why do you think there is unrest in abu ghraib? why do you think these bombs went off in london?

the mujahideen dont fight anyone for the fun of it, they are fighting to send a clear message to USA and british, 'we odnt want you in our country'. now you may say that iraq was 'liberated', from what? an apostate regime placed by the west in the first place? they were 'liberated', so why is the death toll so high? why is there innocents in abu ghraib? why are the US coalition going against the geneva convention. your a millitary person, you should know that what they are doing is illegal.

wa alkyum aslaam
Do you understand the geneva convention and whom it protects? In regard to warfare, the geneva convention states: "It is a violation of the laws of war to engage in combat without meeting certain requirements, among them the wearing of a distinctive uniform or other easily identifiable badge and the carrying of weapons openly.Impersonating soldiers of the other side by wearing the enemy's uniform and fighting in that uniform, is forbidden, as is the taking of hostages."

Now, the insurgents that continue to dress as civilians and wear suicide bombs under their clothing hardly seem to meet the requirements of wearing a distinctive uniform or easily identifiable badge or carrying their weapons openly. This in effect means they do not fall under the protections of the Geneva Convention. If they want the protections, then they must follow the laws of the Geneva Convention. To say that the military is breaking the laws of the Geneva Convention is simply wrong because the insurgents do not fight under the laws of warfare as defined by the Geneva Convention.
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S_87
07-12-2005, 02:45 PM
if they left now there would be a civil war... they shouldnt have invaded but now they have :( :( : (
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Mr. Baldy
07-12-2005, 02:50 PM
aslaam alkyum,

according to westerners they do have a 'uniform'

http://clarityandresolve.com/archives/3kays.jpg

and in the film 'Team america: world police' it was apparent that all mujahideen were middle eastern and had beards, and spoke arabic.

They dont ahve weapons and a uniform because they cant afford them. But they have a badge, ever seen brothers hash's avatar? well that is the badge they fight under. to be honest any 'fool' can see whos a mujahideen and whos a civillian.

one more question, do two wrongs make a right?

wa alkyum aslaam
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YamahaR1
07-12-2005, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
aslaam alkyum,

They dont ahve weapons and a uniform because they cant afford them. But they have a badge, ever seen brothers hash's avatar? well that is the badge they fight under. to be honest any 'fool' can see whos a mujahideen and whos a civillian.

one more question, do two wrongs make a right?

wa alkyum aslaam
No. I don't think two wrongs make a right. Apparently, some do.

I was simply explaining what these people do not receive protections under the Geneva Convention and that the allied forces were not breaking the law since you stated that they were breaking the law.

I do not agree that they do no have money for uniforms. If they have money for weapons, they have money for uniforms. If they have money to get to the U.S. to get training on how to fly American aircraft for purposes of terrorism, then they have money for uniforms.

My point is still the same.....don't ask for the protections of the Geneva Convention if you do not engage in warfare as defined by the Geneva Convention.
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YamahaR1
07-12-2005, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by khilji
In other words, clean up after yourself - if you have made a mess, you should clean it up.
First, thank you for your opinion. :applaud: It is nice to see someone who can provide one while seeing this objectively and without sounding as if they feel nothing but hatred towards anyone who is nonmuslim.

Second, I think the coalition forces are doing many of the things that you suggested and lastly, they are definitely trying to clean up the mess that was made and ensure the Iraqis can stand on their own before departing.

We want our soldiers back home. And, those soldiers want to be home with their family and loved ones. They have no desire to remain in Iraq one day longer than need be.

Many think the military should leave. Well, if they left too soon and civil unrest broke out resulting in more death and destruction, what good does that do either? Then they would be blamed for that. To me, it is a no win situation.
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Mr. Baldy
07-12-2005, 03:16 PM
aslaam alkyum,

the mujahideens arent even an army, there just a band of courages muslims fighting for islam. there ordinary civllilans defending there religion and country. anyways, technichally the geneva convention is haram for muslims, because the muslims have there own rules or jiahd, and yes what the mujahideen are doing is defensive jiahd.

you say they can get to america to train, well there 'large' orginisations like al-qaeda, most the mujahideen are just commited muslims, who will fight for there islam.

wa alkyum aslaam
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YamahaR1
07-12-2005, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
the mujahideens arent even an army, there just a band of courages muslims fighting for islam.
That's fine. Again, if they don't recognize nor fight under the laws of the rest of the world, there should not be complaints when they don't equally receive protection under those laws. They can't have their cake and eat it too.
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YamahaR1
07-12-2005, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
anyways, technichally the geneva convention is haram for muslims, because the muslims have there own rules or jiahd, and yes what the mujahideen are doing is defensive jiahd.
1. Can you explain jihad to me? I've seen various definitions. I'd like to know how muslims truly define it.
2. Why are laws of civilization considered "haram" for muslims? And, what is "haram?"
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Muhammad
07-12-2005, 03:33 PM
Hello Yamaha,

It is nice to see your interest in Islam.

I believe the first question you have asked - regarding Jihad - is answered here.
Also see here for commnly misquoted verses concerning the topic of Jihad.

As for your second question, I did not quite understand what you meant by 'laws of civilisation', so if you could just explain a bit more. The word Haram means forbidden in Islam, eg. pork and alcohol are haram for us to consume.

I hope this helps,
Regards.
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YamahaR1
07-12-2005, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
As for your second question, I did not quite understand what you meant by 'laws of civilisation', so if you could just explain a bit more. The word Haram means forbidden in Islam, eg. pork and alcohol are haram for us to consume.
The Geneva Conventions consist of treaties that set the standards for international law for humanitarian concerns. I see this as laws for "civilization "(all people of the world to live by when conducting war)...specifically if they want protections under the Geneva Convention standards. (of course, not all nations have signed up to support the Geneva Convetion either).

Why is it that muslims consider the Geneva Convention to be haram? Are rules that the rest of the world agree to live by also considered haram or just these rules?

Next, if the Geneva Convention is really considered haram for muslims, then why is there complaint that insurgents do not receive benefit from it?

Lastly, the following countries are signatories to the Geneva Convention: It was approved by Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Spain and Switzerland in 1864. They were followed by Britain (1865), Prussia (1865), Greece (1865), Turkey (1865), Austria (1866), Portugal (1866), Russia (1867), Persia (1874), Serbia (1876), Chile (1879), Argentina (1879) and Peru (1880). After the USA signed the Geneva Convention others followed including Bulgaria (1884), Japan (1886), Luxemburg (1888), Venezuela (1894), South Africa (1896), Uruguay (1900), Guatemala (1903), Mexico (1905), China (1906), Germany (1906), Brazil (1906), Cuba (1907), Panama (1907) and Paraguay (1907).

If the rules aren't followed, if the country you represent is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention, then why should those people receive benefit from it? I just don't understand the double standard.
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YamahaR1
07-13-2005, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YamahaR1
Why is it that muslims consider the Geneva Convention to be haram? Are rules that the rest of the world agree to live by also considered haram or just these rules?
Can anyone answer these questions? I'm still not understanding why the Geneva Convention is haram and if it this only applies to the Geneva Convention or other treaties/agreements, etc. made by other world nations.
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Bittersteel
07-13-2005, 05:36 PM
Why is it that muslims consider the Geneva Convention to be haram?
Becuz Muslims' law are the Shariah law which Allah told us to live by.



Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Preamble

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in cooperation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, therefore,

The General Assembly,

Proclaims this Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

The Quran also reiterates our common humanity and equality:

[3:95] Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another.…

[4:25] … GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned…

[17:70] We have honored the children of Adam, and provided them with rides on land and in the sea. We provided for them good provisions, and we gave them greater advantages than many of our creatures.
Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

The Quran repeatedly explains that it is the human factor which divides us from uniting under our common Creator and Sustainer. It is the human factor which splits us into sects and divides us along superficial lines, pitting us against one another. We are all members of the same community in the eyes of God, and the only quality that distinguishes one above the other is our level of righteousness. Hence, the Quranic injunction not to differentiate between God’s messengers and to commemorate God Alone:

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

[49:13] O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.
Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder…

[7:157] …He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones."

The Quran goes as far as urging us to take whatever measures necessary to ensure that the fundamental Human Rights of others are met:

[4:75] Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring: "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master."
Article 4

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

When the Quran was revealed slavery was in wide practice throughout the Arab World. Thus, it would have been impractical and suicidal to place an immediate ban on all forms of slavery. The Quran uses a better psychological approach to win people’s hearts in the struggle against slavery and all forms of discrimination by placing a strong emphasis on human dignity and equality and encouraging the freeing of slaves, for if we are all equal then slavery cannot be justified:

[90:10-14] Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves. Feeding, during the time of hardship.

[2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves;…

[9:60] Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
Article 5

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

In the Quan, we are constantly reminded to take heed from the lessons of history and are sensitized to the gross evils of tyranny. The lack of mercy is also condemned:

[28:4] Pharaoh turned into a tyrant on earth, and discriminated against some people. He persecuted a helpless group of them, slaughtering their sons, while sparing their daughters. He was indeed wicked.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder…

[26:130] "And when you strike, you strike mercilessly.
Article 6

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

A philosophy in which we are all equal before our common Creator and Provider reassures us of deferential and equal treatment before the law, irrespective of where we may be:

[35:10] Anyone seeking dignity should know that to GOD belongs all dignity. To Him ascends the good words, and He exalts the righteous works. As for those who scheme evil works, they incur severe retribution; the scheming of such people is destined to fail.
Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

[4:25] …GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned…

[4:135] O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, GOD takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

The following Quranic narration highlights how important it is to give everyone the same respect and attention irrespective of one’s socioeconomic background:

[80:1-11] He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away when the blind man came to him (seeking guidance). How do you know? He may purify himself. Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message. As for the rich man, you gave him your attention. Even though you could not guarantee his salvation. The one who came to you eagerly and is really reverent, you ignored him. Indeed, this is a reminder.
Article 8

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

The Quran encourages mercy and forgiveness whenever possible but decrees equivalent punishment as a fundamental right guarnateed to the victim:

[2:178] O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy. Anyone who transgresses beyond this incurs a painful retribution.

[16:126] And if you punish, you shall inflict an equivalent punishment. But if you resort to patience (instead of revenge), it would be better for the patient ones.
Article 9

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

We are constantly warned not to be overly suspicious of others without incriminating evidence. Such attitudes only bring about unjustified hostility and harm towards the accused:

[49:12] O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.

Article 10

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Certainly, the Quran highlights the need for imparitality on all matters within the community:

[2:143] We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you….
Article 11
Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
See relevant verses above.
Article 12

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

The Quran also highlights the need to ensure our privacy as individuals. For example, we see the Quranic injunction not to marry women who were previously married to our fathers. This rule ensures that we do not interfere with the private experiences and intimate thoughts that our fathers shared with their wives:

[33:53] O you who believe, do not enter the prophet's homes unless you are given permission to eat, nor shall you force such an invitation in any manner. If you are invited, you may enter. When you finish eating, you shall leave; do not engage him in lengthy conversations. This used to hurt the prophet, and he was too shy to tell you. But GOD does not shy away from the truth. If you have to ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. You are not to hurt the messenger of GOD. You shall not marry his wives after him, for this would be a gross offense in the sight of GOD.

-----------------------------------------

*33:53 We are enjoined in 4:22 from marrying women who were previously married to our fathers. Nor can the father marry the divorced wife of his genetic son (4:23). This divine commandment preserves our respect for our fathers and their most private affairs. Similarly, the prophet was a father figure to the believers of his time. For the good of those believers, God enjoined them from marrying women who were previously married to the prophet. Marriage is a sacred and very private relationship, and the prophet's private life was better kept private.

[24:58] O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Privacy of the individual is emphasized:

[24:2729] O you who believe, do not enter homes other than yours without permission from their inhabitants, and without greeting them. This is better for you, that you may take heed. If you find no one in them, do not enter them until you obtain permission. If you are told, "Go back," you must go back. This is purer for you. GOD is fully aware of everything you do. You commit no error by entering uninhabited homes wherein there is something that belongs to you. GOD knows everything you reveal, and everything you conceal.

The reputation of the individual must be protected from all forms of unjustified attack or slander:

[104:1] Woe to every backbiter, slanderer.
Article 13
Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

The Quran gurantees the right of the oppressed to emigrate in the cause of God (the course of justice) and to rebel against all forms of oppression:

[4:100] Anyone who emigrates in the cause of God will find on earth great bounties and richness.

[4:97] Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while in a state of wronging their souls, the angels will ask them, "What was the matter with you?" They will say, "We were oppressed on earth." They will say, "Was GOD's earth not spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?"….
Article 14
Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

See above.
Article 15
Everyone has the right to a nationality.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

A respect for all cultures as members of the one universal humanity is recognized throught the Quran:

[5:48] …Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.

[49:13] O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.

Article 16
Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

The sanctity of the family is clearly recognized, with a strong emphasis on the need to reconcile relationships equitably. The Quran also guranteed women with divorce rights at a time when their subordination was the traditional norm:

[25:54] He is the One who created from water a human being, then made him reproduce through marriage and mating. Your Lord is Omnipotent.

[30:21] Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.

[2:102]…These two did not divulge such knowledge without pointing out: "This is a test. You shall not abuse such knowledge." But the people used it in such evil schemes as the breaking up of marriages….

[4:129] You can never be equitable in dealing with more than one wife, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, do not be so biased as to leave one of them hanging (neither enjoying marriage, nor left to marry someone else). If you correct this situation and maintain righteousness, GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[2:241] The divorcees also shall be provided for, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.

[4:35] If a couple fears separation, you shall appoint an arbitrator from his family and an arbitrator from her family; if they decide to reconcile, GOD will help them get together. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.

Article 17
Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Our right to property is clearly spelled out:

[2:05] As soon as he leaves, he roams the earth corruptingly, destroying properties and lives. GOD does not love corruption.

[65:1] O you prophet, when you people divorce the women, you shall ensure that a divorce interim is fulfilled. You shall measure such an interim precisely. You shall reverence GOD your Lord. Do not evict them from their homes, nor shall you make life miserable for them, to force them to leave on their own, unless they commit a proven adultery. These are GOD's laws. Anyone who transgresses GOD's laws commits an injustice against himself. You never know; maybe GOD wills something good to come out of this.

[4:2] You shall hand over to the orphans their rightful properties. Do not substitute the bad for the good, and do not consume their properties by combining them with yours. This would be a gross injustice.

[4:6] You shall test the orphans when they reach puberty. As soon as you find them mature enough, give them their property. Do not consume it extravagantly in a hurry, before they grow up…

[4:29] O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

[38:24] He said, "He is being unfair to you by asking to combine your sheep with his. Most people who combine their properties treat each other unfairly, except those who believe and work righteousness, and these are so few." Afterwards, David wondered if he made the right judgment. He thought that we were testing him. He then implored his Lord for forgiveness, bowed down, and repented.

[59:8] (You shall give) to the needy who immigrated. They were evicted from their homes and deprived of their properties, because they sought GOD's grace and pleasure, and because they supported GOD and His messenger. They are the truthful.
Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Unlike most traditional Islamic societies, the Quran guarantees each idividual complete freedom of religion:

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Here we see how each individual must be ensured of the right to his own beliefs and way of life:

[18:29] Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve.....
Article 20
Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Compelling others to accept your own beliefs and values is a completely alien concept to the Quran. We are each free to choose our own associations and paths in life. Infact the Quran even recognizes that there is more than one path to God:

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:148] Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, GOD will summon you all. GOD is Omnipotent.

Thus, what we believe is our own individual choice and nobody has the right to interfere with our own personal decisions so long as they do not infringe on the rights of others.
Article 21
Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
Everyone has the right to equal access to public service in his country.
The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Consensus and public accountability to the public in all policymaking is the Quranic standard:

[42:38] They respond to their Lord by observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Their affairs are decided after due consultation among themselves, and from our provisions to them they give (to charity).



[39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Article 22

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

In the Quran, we clearly see the emphasis on a need for consensus, co-operation and on a compassionate approach to ensure the satisfaction of everyone:
[3:159] It was mercy from GOD that you became compassionate towards them. Had you been harsh and mean-hearted, they would have abandoned you. Therefore, you shall pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them….
Article 23
Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

The Quran encourages commerce and commands us to be fair and equitable in all transactions:

[30:46] Among His proofs is that He sends the winds with good omen, to shower you with His mercy, and to allow the ships to run in the sea in accordance with His rules, and for you to seek His bounties (through commerce), that you may be appreciative.

[17:66] Your Lord is the One who causes the ships to float on the ocean, that you may seek His bounties. He is Most Merciful towards you.

[6:152] …You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably…

[11:85] "O my people, you shall give full measure and full weight, equitably. Do not cheat the people out of their rights, and do not roam the earth corruptingly.
Article 24

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

The Quran gives us general statements on how rest is part of human nature. None should be denied a good night’s sleep as night and day are designated with their own specific functions in meeting our needs. Denial of our right to a reasonable amount of leisure time would be detrimental to our health and contrary to what the Quran prescribes for us:

[28:73] It is mercy from Him that He created for you the night and the day in order to rest (during the night), then seek His provisions (during the day), that you may be appreciative.

[33:53] …do not engage him in lengthy conversations. This used to hurt the prophet, and he was too shy to tell you. But GOD does not shy away from the truth…

Article 25
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

The Quran guarantees social justice for everyone through the goals of fasting, zakat and prayer. Fasting is meant to instill within us a greater sense of empathy and social awareness towards the less fortunate. By voluntarily depriving ourselves of our need for food we are not only exerting self- restraint, but we are also more importantly inculcating within ourselves a greater sense of gratitude towards our Provider and generosity towards the poor. Zakat prescribes that we must set aside 2.5% of what we receive from our paychecks as a charity to those in need. These are religious duties upon every Muslim. Voluntary charity and caring for the orphans is also strongly encouraged.



[107:1-7] Do you know who really rejects the faith? That is the one who mistreats the orphans. And does not advocate the feeding of the poor. And woe to those who observe the contact prayers (Salat) - who are totally heedless of their prayers. They only show off. And they forbid charity.



[36:47] When they are told, "Give from GOD's provisions to you," those who disbelieve say to those who believe, "Why should we give to those whom GOD could feed, if He so willed? You are really far astray."

[2:215] They ask you about giving: say, "The charity you give shall go to the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, and the traveling alien." Any good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof.

[70:24-25] Part of their money is set aside. For the poor and the needy.
Article 26
Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

The Quran generally encourages seeking God’s bounties and learning, emphasizing the use of our faculties to verify information. God is against anything that hinders the gaining of knowledge and encourages us to think freely rather than beeing blinded by our own traditions and values. We are also asked to open our eyes and reflect on God’s creation:

[86:5] Let the human reflect on his creation.

[54:17] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

[39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Article 27
Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

It is a human tendency found in all cultures and religions to impose limitations upon ourselves that prevent us from enjoying God’s blessings. Such is the case in much of the Muslim World, as cultures impose upon themselves, especially upon women, limitations and restrictions that stunt their social, economical, and psychological development. All unreasonable limitations on our freedoms as individuals are condemned in the Quran:



[7:32] Say, "Who prohibited the nice things GOD has created for His creatures, and the good provisions?" Say, "Such provisions are to be enjoyed in this life by those who believe. Moreover, the good provisions will be exclusively theirs on the Day of Resurrection." We thus explain the revelations for people who know.
[22:78] You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham…
[2:185] …GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
Article 28

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Similarly, all human beings are to be guarnateed all their rights in the Quran by virtue of being human.
Article 29
Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

The Quran strictly ensures us our rights so long as we do not infringe on the freedoms of others. It also reiterates that nothing shall abrogate God’s words:

[18:27] You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it.

[5:8] O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses. Do not be provoked by your conflicts with some people into committing injustice. You shall be absolutely equitable, for it is more righteous. You shall observe GOD. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth….
Article 30

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

Remarkably, the Quran takes note of the human tendeny to use religion as an ideological tool in the oppression of others to meet corrupt and political agendas. It thus strongly condenms such behaviour:

[3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

[2:79] Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.



[3:78] Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to GOD, knowingly.
Reply

YamahaR1
07-13-2005, 06:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Aziz
Becuz Muslims' law are the Shariah law which Allah told us to live by.
Which brings me back to square 1. Why are muslims upset that they do not receive the protections of the Geneva Convention when they do not support it?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-13-2005, 07:08 PM
:sl:
The Geneva convention is in agreement with the Shariah law.

:w:
Reply

YamahaR1
07-13-2005, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:
The Geneva convention is in agreement with the Shariah law.

:w:
Last question....why aren't muslim nations then signatory to the agreement by the other nations of the world? If it is in agreement with Shariah law, then it should not be haram, correct?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-15-2005, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YamahaR1
Last question....why aren't muslim nations then signatory to the agreement by the other nations of the world?
I cannot answer for the actions of the so-called "muslim" governments today.

If it is in agreement with Shariah law, then it should not be haram, correct?
Of course. Saying the Geneva Convention is haraam is probably the most ridiculous comment I've ever heard.

:w:
Reply

YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hash
:sl:

No it is not iraqi's fighting the infield invaders, nor are they jordanians nor are they saudis, or pakistanis, they are muslims complying with the command of Allaah to defend the muslim land, in islaam, nationalism is eradicated, in jihaad nationalism is eradicated. The only foriegn fighters in iraq are the american and british invaders.

:w:

Well then, if you are muslim (and I believe you are) and your fellow muslims are complying with the command of Allah to defend muslim land, why are you not there fighting along side them? Why isn't every muslim on this board not there fighting along beside them? Either they are wrong or you are hypocritical in only choosing Allah's commands when they are befitting to you. Which is it?
Reply

YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 05:07 PM
Hash,

To add to my statements above...I found a link -(link removed)- that discusses Shariah and found the following statement:

WHO IS OBLIGED TO FIGHT IN JIHAD

Those called upon (O: to perform jihad when it is a communal obligation) are every able-bodied man who has reached puberty and is sane.

Have you reached puberty? Are you sane? If so, again I ask, why aren't you in Iraq fighting as you have stated that Allah has commanded muslims to do?
Reply

Mr. Baldy
07-20-2005, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YamahaR1
Hash,

To add to my statements above...I found a link that discusses Shariah and found the following statement:

WHO IS OBLIGED TO FIGHT IN JIHAD

Those called upon (O: to perform jihad when it is a communal obligation) are every able-bodied man who has reached puberty and is sane.

Have you reached puberty? Are you sane? If so, again I ask, why aren't you in Iraq fighting as you have stated that Allah has commanded muslims to do?
aslaam alkyum,

my, you have a lot of hypotheltical questions alhumdullilah :applaud:

well anyway, yes it is true that every able bodied man is obliged to fight jihad, but you have to revue the persons situation. for me it would be better to do dawah for islam, rather than fight, even though i have some training in armed forces, i have more intlectual ability. sp it would be better to apply my brain to do dawah for the muslims. the people in iraq have differnet circumstances, they are forced to fight, because the war is in there 'back yard'.

if you want to get really technichal they are both types of jiahad. one is jihad in political arena, and one is physical fighting. they are equally as important.

wa alkyum aslaam
Reply

YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 06:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
well anyway, yes it is true that every able bodied man is obliged to fight jihad, but you have to revue the persons situation. for me it would be better to do dawah for islam, rather than fight, even though i have some training in armed forces, i have more intlectual ability. sp it would be better to apply my brain to do dawah for the muslims. the people in iraq have differnet circumstances, they are forced to fight, because the war is in there 'back yard'.

if you want to get really technichal they are both types of jiahad. one is jihad in political arena, and one is physical fighting. they are equally as important.
Regarding your choosing not to fight in jihad...
“Those of the believers who are unhurt but sit behind are not equal to those who fight in Allah’s path with their property and lives. Allah has preferred those who fight with their property and lives a whole degree above those who sit behind. And to each, Allah has promised great good” (Koran 4:95)

Does that mean Allah thinks less of you because you use your intellectual abilities rather than physical might?

Also, regarding types of jihad....I've not seen anything yet regarding there being jihad in the political arena and jihad for physical fighting. Can you provide some references that better explains the differences?
Reply

Mr. Baldy
07-20-2005, 08:10 PM
aslaam alkyum,

well let me put it this way, do you regard the US political think tank in less light than those who do the physical work?

“Those of the believers who are unhurt but sit behind are not equal to those who fight in Allah’s path with their property and lives. Allah has preferred those who fight with their property and lives a whole degree above those who sit behind. And to each, Allah has promised great good” (Koran 4:95)

im not about to declare that i am some kind of quranic scholar, because i am not. but if i am not much mistaken, politically fighting for islam is a lifetime occupation, i dont know of anybody who fights for islam politically that takes holidays or the weekend of. political islam is 24/7/365 work. therefore i believe it is fighting with your life. also since money is property, and since most muslims calling for khilafah give money for the cause, this is also fulifilling part of the requirement.

wa alkyum aslaam
Reply

YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 08:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
im not about to declare that i am some kind of quranic scholar, because i am not. but if i am not much mistaken, politically fighting for islam is a lifetime occupation, i dont know of anybody who fights for islam politically that takes holidays or the weekend of. political islam is 24/7/365 work. therefore i believe it is fighting with your life. also since money is property, and since most muslims calling for khilafah give money for the cause, this is also fulifilling part of the requirement.
Is this your interpretation or that of muslims as a whole? Keep in mind, I'm trying to understand muslim beliefs....I'm trying to determine if this is your interpretation or the muslim interpretation.
Reply

Mr. Baldy
07-20-2005, 08:32 PM
aslaam alkyum,

well i cant speak for all muslims, but most the muslims i know would certainly regard it this way. but what with new sects emerging terrorists, conservatives, moderates e.t.c you never know what the next muslims thinking.

wa alkyum aslaam
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-20-2005, 11:02 PM
:sl:

All verses of the Qur'an on Jihad (as well as Hadith) which are often misquoted are explained in the following article:

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/

:w:
Reply

Ummu Amatullah
07-21-2005, 01:18 PM
asallama alaikum brother they should leave immediately. Bush only invaded Iraq to kick Saddam Hussein out of office.Now he successively done that not to mention he also put him in prison.So there's no reason for the occupation to stay,unless they want to keep on killing innocent civillians. To be honest right now Iraq doesn't seem that it could defend itself,but with the help from other muslim countrys it'll manage.If the occupation left today i'll admitt Iraq wouldn't right away get back on their feet, but if the government and the citizens work together it'll be restored in no time.
Reply

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