PDA

View Full Version : Do Angels Have free will?



NiceGuy1987
01-27-2007, 09:03 PM
Asslaamu Allykum wr wb,

i was wondering do angels have free will because i was told they have free will but do not disobey Allah swt?
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
The Ruler
01-27-2007, 09:04 PM
:sl:

they do dont they...and that is how iblis became iblis :confused:

:w:
Reply

NiceGuy1987
01-27-2007, 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by +*Rooh*+
:sl:

they do dont they...and that is how iblis became iblis :confused:

:w:
ummm.. ibilis wasnt an angel he was from the jin

And (remember) when We said to the angels: “Prostrate yourselves unto Adam.” So they prostrated themselves except Iblees (Satan). He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him (Iblees) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zaalimoon (polytheists, and wrongdoers, etc).” [al-Kahf 18:50]


go to explains more http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...%20free%20will
Reply

ABWAN
01-27-2007, 09:11 PM
I must admit I have a really bad memory. So I may be wrong when I cite Imam Anwar Alawlaki. If I remember correctly (from one of his lectures)..then the answer is NO. even logically NO would be the right answer

And Iblis is not an angel. Mr.Iblis is a jinn
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
NiceGuy1987
01-27-2007, 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by ABWAN
I must admit I have a really bad memory. So I may be wrong when I cite Imam Anwar Alawlaki. If I remember correctly (from one of his lectures)..then the answer is NO. even logically NO would be the right answer

And Iblis is not an angel. Mr.Iblis is a jinn
Thats what i always thought they have no free will but then when i went to an islamic class the teacher said, " they have the facility of choice, however they choose to do good and not disobey." so im confused and i explained to someone they have free choice but dont disobey allah wen he commands them to do something.
Reply

Khayal
01-27-2007, 09:29 PM
:sl:

You can find your answer from the following link.



http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran

I hope It will help.

:w:
Reply

lolwatever
01-28-2007, 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by NiceGuy1987
Asslaamu Allykum wr wb,

i was wondering do angels have free will because i was told they have free will but do not disobey Allah swt?
salamz dude

http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=8976&ln=eng

checkout the bits on angels... xplains it inshalha... basically they dont disobey allah.

The angels were created noble; they never disobey Allaah when He commands them to do something and they do what they are commanded.
So it is not possbile for the angels to disobey their Lord, because they are protected from sin and they are naturally inclined to obey Allaah.
:D

:w:
Reply

Malaikah
01-28-2007, 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by NiceGuy1987
" they have the facility of choice, however they choose to do good and not disobey."
:sl:

That is what I heard from a knowledgeable teacher also... however I heard another knowledgeable teacher say that they don't have free will... so yeh lol, confusing... but it isn't the end of the world I guess.
Reply

lolwatever
01-28-2007, 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

That is what I heard from a knowledgeable teacher also... however I heard another knowledgeable teacher say that they don't have free will... so yeh lol, confusing... but it isn't the end of the world I guess.
did either of the teachers quote ne evidence?

jazaks
:w:
Reply

Malaikah
01-28-2007, 07:55 AM
:sl:

No! Neither did! lol that's the annoying thing...
Reply

ژاله
01-28-2007, 07:59 AM
Allah says
لايعصون الله ما امرهم و يفعلون مايؤمرون
they(angels) dont disobey Allah and they do what they are ordered....
it seems that they dont have their own will...
Wallahu a3lam
wassalam
Reply

NiceGuy1987
01-28-2007, 10:26 AM
Asslaamu Allykum wr wb,

umm... i asked a sheikh today he said no they dont have free will, i asked on al magrib forum i was told they dont have free will and supported with evidence and that they do have free will and supported with evidence lol,

go to this link to find the evidence lol http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthre...588#post178588

i am asking because i told a couple of people angels have free will but they do not disobey Allah swt. an example being wen gabrile a.s. went to through dust in pharoahs mouth, or wen the angels questioned Allah on how will u create man who will cause mistichef on earth etc. so i need to be sure and if im wrong need to say i am wrong
Reply

lolwatever
01-28-2007, 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by NiceGuy1987
Asslaamu Allykum wr wb,

umm... i asked a sheikh today he said no they dont have free will, i asked on al magrib forum i was told they dont have free will and supported with evidence and that they do have free will and supported with evidence lol,

go to this link to find the evidence lol http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthre...588#post178588

i am asking because i told a couple of people angels have free will but they do not disobey Allah swt. an example being wen gabrile a.s. went to through dust in pharoahs mouth, or wen the angels questioned Allah on how will u create man who will cause mistichef on earth etc. so i need to be sure and if im wrong need to say i am wrong
the only evidence that exists is that "Angels do what they are ordered and they don't disobey Allah",

it's like saying a child always does what his parents tell him, and he never disobeys his parents... doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have free will.

so as long as no side brigns evidence... then Allahu alam.

and really it's not like its that beneifical for us 2 know.... how is that going to affect us?

tc :w: :D
Reply

ژاله
01-28-2007, 12:51 PM
really it does'nt affect us in any way:D
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-28-2007, 01:03 PM
it would be scary if someone as powerful as Gibrail AS who could lift up the people of sudum with the tip of his wings had free will!!!! :omg:
Reply

amirah_87
01-28-2007, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by faizi
Allah says
لايعصون الله ما امرهم و يفعلون مايؤمرون
they(angels) dont disobey Allah and they do what they are ordered....
it seems that they dont have their own will...
Wallahu a3lam
wassalam
:sl:

I'd say that this Aayah here sums it up MashaAllah.
Reply

Umar001
01-28-2007, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by NiceGuy1987
Asslaamu Allykum wr wb,

i am asking because i told a couple of people angels have free will but they do not disobey Allah swt. an example being wen gabrile a.s. went to through dust in pharoahs mouth, or wen the angels questioned Allah on how will u create man who will cause mistichef on earth etc. so i need to be sure and if im wrong need to say i am wrong
Wa Aleykum Salam Wa Rhametulah,

I do not think either are proof enough.

Both can be reconciled with the belief that angels do not have free will.
Reply

NiceGuy1987
01-28-2007, 06:10 PM
JAzakallahu kayeer for all ur help brothers and sisters may allah reward u all with jannah and protect u from hell ameen
Reply

lolwatever
01-28-2007, 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by NiceGuy1987
JAzakallahu kayeer for all ur help brothers and sisters may allah reward u all with jannah and protect u from hell ameen
ameen :) u2bro
Reply

barney
04-05-2008, 02:46 AM
Hai!

I just wanted a quick banter about angels .

1) Are they free willed? Satan was, because although he was a perfect angel and quite high up in the rank system of angels, he decided he knew best, rebelled and became fallen. what about the others? Do they have free will or are all their actions and thoughts controlled by God?
If one of them got miffed at another would they start fighting?

2)Do islamic angels have wings? Or are they like Djinns in form?
3) Actually do Christian Angels have wings. ive never seen em portrayed flightless, but I cant find anything bibalic about them being airborne apart from where they appeared in the sky to the shepherds. And they might not have had wings to do that, they could have just hovered or something.
Reply

Fishman
04-05-2008, 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Hai!

I just wanted a quick banter about angels .

1) Are they free willed? Satan was, because although he was a perfect angel and quite high up in the rank system of angels, he decided he knew best, rebelled and became fallen. what about the others? Do they have free will or are all their actions and thoughts controlled by God?
If one of them got miffed at another would they start fighting?

2)Do islamic angels have wings? Or are they like Djinns in form?
3) Actually do Christian Angels have wings. ive never seen em portrayed flightless, but I cant find anything bibalic about them being airborne apart from where they appeared in the sky to the shepherds. And they might not have had wings to do that, they could have just hovered or something.
:sl:
1) In Islam, Shaytan was not a fallen angel but a 'fallen' Djinn. He used to be a brilliant servant of God but, but he grew arrogant and ended up refusing to follow God's command to bow down to Adam, on the grounds that he was created from fire and was therefore superior to Adam (who had been created from clay/dirt). For this complete and outright rejection of God's Commands, he was thrown into Hell. He now wants to pull as many humans as he can down there with him as revenge.

In Islam, Angels always obey God, they don't fall. There is no story of a war in Heaven between different factions of Angels.

2) At least some definitely have wings, as I can remember. Maybe the Christian stories of winged Angels are based on Islam, like a lot of the traditional ideas about Heaven and Hell are supposedly. I remember somebody saying that a lot of Dante's Inferno was borrowed from Islam.
:w:
Reply

lyesh
04-05-2008, 09:32 PM
1) As fishman said... Satan is among the jinns.

"Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!" (18:50)



2) We believe that angels have wings.

"Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs): He adds to Creation as He pleases: for Allah has power over all things." (35:1)
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-05-2008, 09:47 PM
The difference between angels and humans is that angels have been given the necessary qualities and powers to carry out their duties but they do not have free will. Man, on the other hand, has been given free will and can choose between right and wrong; this is why man will have to face the test on the day of judgement.

The duty of the angels is to glorify and praise Allah. They never get tired. They are always ready to obey Allah. They do not need sleep, nor do they require the things a human being would need. We cannot see the angels unless they appear in human form.

There is a host of angels in the kingdom of Allah. The four most prominent ones are:

Jibraeel (Gabriel) – brought the revelation from Allah to Prophet Muhammad and all other prophets.

Mikaeel (Michael) – is in charge of the weather.

Izraeel (Azrail) – also known as the “Angel of Death”, is responsible for ending our life.

Israfeel (Israfil) – will blow the trumpet at the time of the end of the world and on the Day of Judgement.

Angels are pure and created to serve Allah; part of this service is to help the true believers at times of need. They have been sent down to help during times of battles. They have put confidence, strength and resilience into the hearts of the believers and they have been instrumental in putting fear and doubt into the hearts of disbelievers. On a day to day basis they shield and protect the Believers from harm, Insha'Allah (Allah's Will) we should strive to achieve their friendship.
Reply

Keltoi
04-05-2008, 09:49 PM
The Bible eludes to the fact that angels might have wings, but it doesn't specifically state that to be the case, only that they "fly". As for where the images and paintings of angels with wings comes from, that is simply artistic expression and imagination.

According to Revelations, angels obviously do have free will, as Satan chose to disobey God and 1/3 of the others angels chose to do so as well. The difference is that unlike humans, angels cannot be forgiven or restored. I believe Peter mentions that angels "long to look into these things", meaning salvation and grace, which are not available to them.
Reply

barney
04-05-2008, 09:52 PM
Thanks for the answers.

I know this might be hard to answer from scripture, as i cant find anything about it, but why would angels need wings?
If they are spirits, does their coming to earth mean they are physically transformed to material matter and so are affected by gravity? (hence they need wings to keep airborne), or are they just asthetic?
Reply

barney
04-05-2008, 09:55 PM
Cheers Kelt.
They technically in a christian version then still have free will, and so, although they are nominally obaying God, they could technically just get sick of the eternity of servitude and start a rebellion? Is this a possibility from christian doctrine?

Is that always going to be the way? cos if so, when we are up in heaven having lost our free will there, we might get mugged by a bunch of independent thinking angels.
Reply

------
04-06-2008, 10:15 AM
:salamext:

Peace

1) Are they free willed?
Nope.

2)Do islamic angels have wings? Or are they like Djinns in form?
Angel are Angels. Jinns are Jinns. 2 completely different beings. And yes, Angels have wings.
Reply

'Abd al-Baari
04-06-2008, 10:27 AM
Greetings,

Here is some more information on Angels:-

The angels are by nature obedient to Allaah:

“[they, i.e., angels] disobey not, (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allaah, but do that which they are commanded [al-Tahreem 66:6 – interpretation of the meaning]

They are created in such a way that they do not eat or drink. Their food is tasbeeh (glorification of Allaah) and tahleel (saying Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah), as Allaah tells us concerning them (interpretation of the meaning):

“They (i.e. the angels) glorify His Praises night and day, (and) they never slacken (to do so) [al-Anbiyaa’ 21:20]

The angels bear witness to the Oneness of Allaah, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah bears witness that Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He always) maintains His creation in justice. Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:18]

Allaah has honoured some of the angels by choosing them as Messengers, just as He has chosen some of mankind as Messengers:

“Allaah chooses Messengers from angels and from men” [al-Hajj 22:75 – interpretation of the meaning]

The angels have great powers given to them by Allaah, including the following:

The ability to take on different forms. Allah has given the angels the ability to take on forms other than their own. Allah sent Jibreel to Maryam (Mary) in the form of a man, as Allah says:
". . . Then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." [Maryam 19:17]

Angels also came to Ibraaheem in human form, and he did not know that they were angels until they told him so. Similarly, angels came to Lut in the form of young men with beautiful faces. Jibreel used to come to the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) in different forms: sometimes he would appear in the form of Dihyah al-Kalbi, a Sahaabee who was very handsome, and sometimes in the form of a Bedouin. The Sahaabah saw him in his human form, as is reported from ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab in the two Saheehs. (‘Umar) said:
"One day while we were sitting with the Messenger of Allah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him), there appeared before us a man whose clothes were exceedingly white and whose hair was exceedingly black; no signs of travel were to be seen on him, and none of us knew him. He walked up and sat down by the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him). Resting his knees against his and placing his hands on his thighs, he said: ‘O Muhammad, tell me about Islam.’. . ." (Saheeh Muslim, no. 8).

Many other ahaadeeth refer to the angels taking human forms, such as the hadeeth about the one who killed a hundred, in which it says ". . . there came to them an angel in human form . . ." and the hadeeth about the blind man, the bald man and the leper.

Their speed
The greatest speed known to man today is the speed of light; the angels are able to travel much faster than this. Hardly had an enquirer completed a question to the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him), but Jibreel would bring the answer from Allah.

And Allah Knows Best

Peace :)
Reply

Keltoi
04-07-2008, 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Cheers Kelt.
They technically in a christian version then still have free will, and so, although they are nominally obaying God, they could technically just get sick of the eternity of servitude and start a rebellion? Is this a possibility from christian doctrine?

Is that always going to be the way? cos if so, when we are up in heaven having lost our free will there, we might get mugged by a bunch of independent thinking angels.
There is no indication that Heaven will even be available to angels, at least not in the "physical" sense...although I don't like thinking of Heaven in physical terms whatsoever. The available info on angels is so slight that most comments on the matter are derived from imagination, wishful thinking, and pointless speculation.
Reply

barney
04-07-2008, 03:08 AM
Thanks again Kelt, I had been under the impression that the angels were already "up" in heaven and were a permnent fixture, as kind of observing and waiting for commands.

I have been reading far too much "in nomine" and looking at paintings.

With the lack of info, is it your beleif they are simply physically visible manifestations of his will?
If so why do they need names?
Reply

------
04-07-2008, 07:59 AM
:salamext:

With the lack of info, is it your beleif they are simply physically visible manifestations of his will?
Can u repeat that in basic english please?
Reply

Ghira
04-07-2008, 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Thanks again Kelt, I had been under the impression that the angels were already "up" in heaven and were a permnent fixture, as kind of observing and waiting for commands.

I have been reading far too much "in nomine" and looking at paintings.

With the lack of info, is it your beleif they are simply physically visible manifestations of his will?
If so why do they need names?
Physical manifestation of God's will?? You ask some strange questions but I see where you are getting at. We believe everything is under the will and power of God. We always repeat that "there is no will or power except by what He permits." One of the basic tenants of faith is to believe in whatever God has willed the good and the bad. God has created both good and evil. That does not mean we don't try to change the evil, fight evil, and make good prevail. It just means that is what The All-Mighty willed by His wisdom and we have to plan accordingly. An Angel is a creation of God with unique capabilities that other creations don't have. We believe God does have certain attributes and names and He wants His creations to manifest those creations on earth. We don't mean that we become God, or part of God, or pantheism. It just means that we exemplify these attributes because God loves to see that in his creation. For example, there is a statement of Prophet (saw) that says "God is beautiful and loves beauty" in response to someone who thought dressing nicely was a sign of being boastful and filled with pride. We can beauty ourselves with certain limits, we can beauty our houses, have gardens, that is beauty and God loves to see that. Another example, well I can just say the best person to look at as the walking manifestation of God's attributes is to read about the Prophet of Islam Muhammad (saw). End by saying God's attributes are not like His creations it is just a glimpse a speck of what He possess. And some attributes creations are exempt from having. God posses the ultimate form of true mercy, forgiveness, peace. Those who show these good qualities are great people indeed.
Reply

barney
04-08-2008, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:



Can u repeat that in basic english please?
Are they things we can see that are there by gods will. That they are not interacting with the world in a physical way, except being able to be seen.
Reply

Keltoi
04-08-2008, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Are they things we can see that are there by gods will. That they are not interacting with the world in a physical way, except being able to be seen.
That is a theory about angels that some theologians have brought up. That they are in fact simply manifestations of God's Will. However, that sort of contradicts some of the info included in the Bible relating to the interaction between God, angels, and human beings.
Reply

barney
04-08-2008, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Ghira
Physical manifestation of God's will?? You ask some strange questions but I see where you are getting at. We believe everything is under the will and power of God. We always repeat that "there is no will or power except by what He permits." One of the basic tenants of faith is to believe in whatever God has willed the good and the bad. God has created both good and evil. That does not mean we don't try to change the evil, fight evil, and make good prevail. It just means that is what The All-Mighty willed by His wisdom and we have to plan accordingly. An Angel is a creation of God with unique capabilities that other creations don't have. We believe God does have certain attributes and names and He wants His creations to manifest those creations on earth. We don't mean that we become God, or part of God, or pantheism. It just means that we exemplify these attributes because God loves to see that in his creation. For example, there is a statement of Prophet (saw) that says "God is beautiful and loves beauty" in response to someone who thought dressing nicely was a sign of being boastful and filled with pride. We can beauty ourselves with certain limits, we can beauty our houses, have gardens, that is beauty and God loves to see that. Another example, well I can just say the best person to look at as the walking manifestation of God's attributes is to read about the Prophet of Islam Muhammad (saw). End by saying God's attributes are not like His creations it is just a glimpse a speck of what He possess. And some attributes creations are exempt from having. God posses the ultimate form of true mercy, forgiveness, peace. Those who show these good qualities are great people indeed.

So they are creations of God, they have unique attributes, but dont neccesserily exist in permenace?
Is Jibreal around at the moment as we type, or is he simply created as he is needed.
On interacting with the world, if he has no physical presence then he wouldnt need the wings. If he was a spirit only with permenace in heaven , that would indicate that he needed the wings for his heavenly existance. Hence Heaven has a type of oxygen or at least a gas that can be actuated by wing-use.
Or the wings are just to make them look cool?
Reply

aadil77
04-08-2008, 05:36 PM
angels and jinn are of the Unseen, since Jibrael appeared in the form of a man, then they must be physical creatures, but unseen to man and their presence is unknown to man,

and who knows their wings may not need the prsence of air particles to be able to move

God knows best
Reply

Snowflake
04-08-2008, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by barney
So they are creations of God, they have unique attributes, but dont neccesserily exist in permenace?
Is Jibreal around at the moment as we type, or is he simply created as he is needed.
On interacting with the world, if he has no physical presence then he wouldnt need the wings. If he was a spirit only with permenace in heaven , that would indicate that he needed the wings for his heavenly existance. Hence Heaven has a type of oxygen or at least a gas that can be actuated by wing-use.
Or the wings are just to make them look cool?
Angels do exist in permanance and each are assigned different duties in the Heavens & Earth. Arch-angel Jibril is the chief of the angels and at present he is wherever Allah wills him to be.


The wings are a symbol of power or ability. Angels' abilities/powers vary according to the work entrusted to them. Some angels have two wings, some have three, others have four (4). And Allah says in Surah Fatir (35:1) that He can multiply His creation when He wills. I assume that the number of wings show that they are for the purpose of flying. Some, like Angel Jibril, have up to six hundred wings. If just one of his wings was spread open, it would cover what is between east and west.


Some angels are in a constant state of worship of Allah. Other's are responsible for safeguarding us against harm. If you're standing near a wall which is about to collapse an angel will not come and physically lift you out of harm's way. If a person is destined to be saved an angel will prompt him or convey a warning to move away. This is what we call instinct or intuition.

It is sufficient for a muslim to believe in angels. We do not dwell on their image. Nor, do we need to.

Peace.
Reply

barney
04-08-2008, 10:37 PM
Ok. Cheers.
So angels are always around, but not free willed, they all have jobs. Some are bosses and some get the mundane stuff.
Jibreal is the overall boss.(apart from Allah)
Their wings increase in power, but have no heavenly or earthly use, but can take up a hemisphere.
Some do nothing at all but praise allah, some help out on earth according to allahs will.

So if you hear a screech of brakes and leap out of the road, the unseen but physical beings flying in a real atmosphere but not using their wings, which may number in the hundreds , which are not there for asthetic's, will tell you that your in danger, and that may save you.

I'm getting it slowly I think.
Reply

kirk
04-09-2008, 02:57 AM
If God were all knowing and all powerful he wouldn’t need angels.

The religious belief in angels is one of the proofs there is no god.

-
Reply

Malaikah
04-09-2008, 05:05 AM
If kirk thought outside the box he would realise that the existence of angels doesn't mean God can't do stuff Himself, just that He choose to have angels do those things, for what ever reason He Wills.

As for free will, it is my understanding that angels do have free will but they always choose to do good according to the vast majority of scholars. The proofs cited for this include the fact that they asked Allah question about He did certain things, and also because the angels have been praised by God, and if they did not have free will, then they would not deserve praise.

As for wings, I have never heard that they have no purpose other than too look good... Nor have I heard they are non-physical beings.
Reply

Snowflake
04-09-2008, 10:42 AM
barney;925303]Ok. Cheers.

Their wings increase in power, but have no heavenly or earthly use, but can take up a hemisphere.
You're welcome. We know angels rise and descend from the heavens. But whether the wings are simply aesthetic or useful, we don't know. However, since Archangel Jibril has more wings than other angels, the number of wings could be to signify his status to other angels? Would make him stand out na? lol.

So if you hear a screech of brakes and leap out of the road, the unseen but physical beings flying in a real atmosphere but not using their wings, which may number in the hundreds , which are not there for asthetic's, will tell you that your in danger, and that may save you.

I'm getting it slowly I think.
I think hearing screeching brakes and leaping out of harms way boils down to our critical faculties of hearing/seeing. I think angels step in where our faculties are limited in knowing the unexpected dangers around us.

Peace.



Malaikah: As for free will, it is my understanding that angels do have free will but they always choose to do good according to the vast majority of scholars. The proofs cited for this include the fact that they asked Allah question about He did certain things, and also because the angels have been praised by God, and if they did not have free will, then they would not deserve praise.
Allah created obedience inherent in the angels. It is the basic characteristic of their being, hence they cannot disobey. That means their will has limits. We know angels can never disobey Allah, so it's not exactly free will they possess. However, limited will need not compromise the ability to think. The two can co-exist. While there is no good enough example to compare to heavenly matters, I hope this one will suffice: a slave/captive has to obey his master but still is able to think for himself i.e. he can still think of escaping (even escape) he can choose to sleep/stay awake, eat or not etc. As for angels, their thinking always conforms to Allah's commands - so it is not free will in the sense we possess it.


As for wings, I have never heard that they have no purpose other than too look good... Nor have I heard they are non-physical beings.
They are non-physical beings (of light) whom Allah has given power to take the shape of man as mentioned in the Quran. However, in the shape of man they will not have internal cavaties. This is why when Prophet Ibrahim (as) gave food to the angels who were visiting him (in the shape of men), they did not eat. Neither will they human genitalia, since angels do not have a gender.

I've also never heard that the wings are of aesthetic quality only.

:sl:
Reply

barney
04-09-2008, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
You're welcome. We know angels rise and ascend from the heavens. But whether the wings are simply aesthetic or useful, we don't know. However, since Archangel Jibril has more wings than other angels, the number of wings could be to signify his status to other angels? Would make him stand out na? lol.


I think hearing screeching brakes and leaping out of harms way boils down to our critical faculties of hearing/seeing. I think angels step in where our faculties are limited in knowing the unexpected dangers around us.

Peace.


Allah created obedience inherent in the angels. It is the basic characteristic of their being, hence they cannot disobey. That means their will has limits. We know angels can never disobey Allah, so it's not exactly free will they possess. However, limited will need not compromise the ability to think. The two can co-exist. While there is no good enough example to compare to heavenly matters, I hope this one will suffice: a slave/captive has to obey his master but still is able to think for himself i.e. he can still think of escaping (even escape) he can choose to sleep/stay awake, eat or not etc. As for angels, their thinking always conforms to Allah's commands - so it is not free will in the sense we possess it.



They are non-physical beings (of light) whom Allah has given power to take the shape of man as mentioned in the Quran. However, in the shape of man they will not have internal cavaties. This is why when Prophet Ibrahim (as) gave food to the angels who were visiting him (in the shape of men), they did not eat. Neither will they human genitalia, since angels do not have a gender.

I've also never heard that the wings are of aesthetic quality only.

:sl:
So the Angels arrive when we neither see nor hear the danger and allow us to see or hear the danger, then it's up to us to extricate ourselves from the danger?

The wings are possibly asthetic or a badge of rank but are not nesseccery in flying.
They are slaves to obay God, but can if they want do otherwise, but just dont.

It's getting clearer, thanks.
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-09-2008, 11:01 AM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu and Greetings.

There is a hadith which narrates how the Angel Jibreel (Gabriel) appeared before the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in the form of a man who needed to know about Islam. He demanded the Prophet: "Inform me about faith. He (the Prophet) replied: That you affirm your faith in Allah, in His angels, in His Books, in His Apostles, in the Day of Judgment, and you affirm your faith in the Divine Decree about good and evil." (Muslim)

There were indeed several occasions in the life of the Prophet when the chief of the angels, Jibreel appeared to him in human form. But this was a miracle only the Prophet had experienced.

This in itself does not mean that the angels are made of material substance normally visible to humans. The Quran clearly says that the day when the angels are visible to the world would be a very harsh day for the unbelievers:

*{Upon the day when they see the angels -- no good tidings that day for the sinners ...

On the day when the heavens and the clouds are split asunder and the angels are sent down in a grand descent, the dominion that day will belong truly to the All-Merciful; it will be a harsh day for the unbelievers.}* (Al-Furqan 25: 22, 25-26)

It is reported in an authentic hadith that when people assemble in activities organized for the purpose of remembering Allah, the angels are around them and Allah Himself remembers them among those who are near to Him.

Thus, we can see that the belief in angels is crucial and central to our faith and Islam. This means that the absence of this belief would take away an essential part of our faith; and that is why we underscore the idea that belief in angels strengthens our faith.
Reply

Malaikah
04-09-2008, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
They are non-physical beings (of light) whom Allah has given power to take the shape of man as mentioned in the Quran.
On what bases do you say they are non-physical?
Reply

------
04-09-2008, 11:54 AM
:salamext:

http://www.islamicboard.com/aqeedah/...free-will.html

Threads merged?
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-09-2008, 12:04 PM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

They do not have any free will or an independent will to act on their own.

They carry out without question all the Commands (laws) of Allah and do not oppose or neglect them in any way.

Like everything in the Universe, day and night they are engaged in praising and glorifying Allah and are never tired of this. They do not get bored or tired of remembering and worshipping Allah. Allah says:

"They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever slacken." (al-Anbiya', 21:20)

. . . For in the presence of your Lord are those who celebrate His praises by night and by day. Some spend their entire existence in Ruku’, others in Sujood.
Reply

Snowflake
04-09-2008, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
On what bases do you say they are non-physical?
In the sense that they cannot be seen, touched, or felt in their real form.
Reply

barney
04-09-2008, 09:38 PM
[QUOTE=Muslimah_Sis;925502]
Allah created obedience inherent in the angels. It is the basic characteristic of their being, hence they cannot disobey. That means their will has limits. We know angels can never disobey Allah, so it's not exactly free will they possess. However, limited will need not compromise the ability to think. The two can co-exist. While there is no good enough example to compare to heavenly matters, I hope this one will suffice: a slave/captive has to obey his master but still is able to think for himself i.e. he can still think of escaping (even escape) he can choose to sleep/stay awake, eat or not etc. As for angels, their thinking always conforms to Allah's commands - so it is not free will in the sense we possess it.

QUOTE]

You state its not free will as we possess it. Which seems clear from your description. Its simply a mass of contradictions in terms.

Perhaps it's a state of being which is undescribable in human terms and just "IS".

The Wing idea is totally baffeling me. I prefer the Christian Idea that, "its just how we used to draw them to make them look cool".
Seems strange to me that the wing idea seems to be a part of islam too and seems to have taken a fixed permenace.

Anyway, I think I have it all in my head now. Thanks for the answers folks.
Reply

Chuck
04-10-2008, 05:09 AM
Its simply a mass of contradictions in terms.
Why?

The Wing idea is totally baffeling me.
So they are suppose to fly like superman in any direction they want?
Reply

Ghira
04-10-2008, 07:25 AM
Wings are sign of rank and closeness to their Creator.

"Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs): He adds to Creation as He pleases: for Allah has power over all things." (35:1)

Shiekh Suhaib Web said something beautiful about this verse. He said just like these angels have 2, 3, 4 wings to ascend towards Creator we are given something similar. We get closer to Allah (God) by praying 2, 3, 4 etc. Rakahs (units) of prayer. This makes more sense to a Muslim than non-Muslim. There is saying where Prophet (saw) said a slave is closest to Allah during sujood (prostration). This Surah ends by stating that God ADDS to whomever He pleases. Some people may pray more units of prayer to get closer to their Creator others may not, it is up to Allah to give the guidance or rank to the creation. As stated in Qur'an the best among you are those who are most God-conscious. Cannot deny that a rank system is set in place with creations of God (angels and humans).
Reply

barney
04-10-2008, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ghira
Wings are sign of rank and closeness to their Creator.
Shiekh Suhaib Web said something beautiful about this verse. He said just like these angels have 2, 3, 4 wings to ascend towards Creator we are given something similar. ).
Is that a metaphorical thing? I'm assuming that he wasnt claiming we would have spiritual wings stuck on after death dependent on the amount of prayers we did, more "those who pray to god get to him faster".


Chuck, why is a mass of contradictions? No offence meant at all, but it's like me saying "I dont see how you can have a solid vapour"
and you saying "Its not strictly speaking a solid as we know it, it's a substance that God chooses it to be and is a solid, but has the properties of a vapour, we have never seen it and there is no evidence for it, but we know it exists because we beleive in it"

As I say, you cant have bound free will. Will is free or it is not.
If the will is free. then angels could rebel. If its not they are automons.
Reply

kirk
04-11-2008, 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
..…the existence of angels doesn't mean God can't do stuff Himself, just that He choose to have angels do those things, for what ever reason He Wills.

If you have 2 children and you have magical the ability to be in 3 places at once, you could go to work and look after your 2 children all at the same time!

Such a person would not require angels to look after the children. God is supposed to be all powerful and therefore doesn’t need angels.

It is convenient for religious people to say: something that doesn’t make sense which agrees with religious belief, is the will of God.

When something doesn’t make sense that goes against religious belief – then it doesn’t make sense.

k
Reply

barney
04-11-2008, 03:42 AM
Sumarian society was the first civilisation to beleive in Angels, they beleived they were messengers from their Gods, they had wings and the whole shebang.
That was 3000 BC.
When Abrahamic religions became mainstream, the idea naturally followed.These messengers were well known to the first scribes and so were written in to provide a tangible link with god.

http://www.feedback.nildram.co.uk/ri...ays/angels.htm
Reply

AceTCK
04-11-2008, 05:13 AM
Salaam or Peace be with you;

If the question is whether angels have free will, According to Islam, the Angels obey the command of God All Mighty, meaning they are the servants of God, and they serve a purpose.

This can be proven when Iblis or satan disobeyed God and was no longer amongst the angels that God favors. When satan challenged his creator and did not bow to Adam (Peace n blessings Upon him), which was a command by God, He became a rogue angel you could say.
Reply

AceTCK
04-11-2008, 05:18 AM
I get what you are trying to say, but we all serve a purpose and the angels serve a purpose, just like humans are here for a purpose.

Brother or Sister according to your logic, if something can't be explained it doesn't make sense theory, then Prove to me that God does not exist, if you cant, does that mean that your theory does not make sense?
Reply

barney
04-11-2008, 05:33 AM
Originally Posted by AceTCK
I get what you are trying to say, but we all serve a purpose and the angels serve a purpose, just like humans are here for a purpose.

Brother or Sister according to your logic, if something can't be explained it doesn't make sense theory, then Prove to me that God does not exist, if you cant, does that mean that your theory does not make sense?
If this is Directed towards my posts, i'll happily answer.

I beleive God exists. God is the name I give to the entity/energy/force that created the universe.
I can't prove it dosn't exist, because evrything had to have a beginning. that Beginning is "God".

Theres no however reason why mythical beings called Angels exist, no reason why they have wings wither its two or six hundred the size of the earth, massive arguements against them if they have free will , massive arguements against them if they have'nt got free will, no reason for them to hold ranks, no reason for them to hold down jobs in heaven.

Of course it's all arguable that "God wills it", but I cant see why he would or should, even if he could!
Reply

AceTCK
04-11-2008, 05:51 AM
Well I am not fully knowledgable on the purpose of Angels, but I can name one off the top of my head,

The Angle Gabriel came down to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him) and his task was to deliver the first message which was; "Read. In the name of your Lord".

and throughout the prophet's life the Angel Gabriel came several times by God's Will. So that would be the Angel's purpose.

We have the Angel of Death Israfeil if (Iam not mistaken), and his purpose is to take the life of the one whose time has come.


Regarding your point that God doesnt need Angels because he is Almighty; God doesnt not NEED ANYONE, lets make that clear. But we all serve a different purpose which God has commanded us to follow, whether it be Angels or Human. So the fact that Angels exist or Human Beings exist is not because God needs us, We need God.

Your point about free will concerning the Angels, Iam not sure, but Human Beings do have free will, but whatever they do, since God is the All Knowing, he knows ahead of time, but it is up to you if you choose right or wrong, as an example.
Reply

Malaikah
04-11-2008, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by kirk
Such a person would not require angels to look after the children. God is supposed to be all powerful and therefore doesn’t need angels.

It is convenient for religious people to say: something that doesn’t make sense which agrees with religious belief, is the will of God.
I don't see why having having angels doesn't make sense. I love the fact that angels exist, they add so much flavour to things!

What you need is to understand the difference between need and want. Just because God wants to have angels doesn't mean He needs to have angels.
Reply

barney
04-11-2008, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
I don't see why having having angels doesn't make sense. I love the fact that angels exist, they add so much flavour to things!

What you need is to understand the difference between need and want. Just because God wants to have angels doesn't mean He needs to have angels.

I love the idea of Angels as well. They definatly add flavour, mystique and interest.

I would question why God wants angels, I know he wouldnt need them, nor would he need them to have wings.
He popped one outside eden with a sword to stop adam and Eve sneaking back in.
Why? Why not just make eden just inaccessable to them. They cross the line and they die or mayby in tune with his mercy, they just cant walk any further.
Why tie up an angel for 900 years till they die? Or longer if Eve outlived Adam, as girls generally live longer. Thats a Angel out of action waiting 1200 odd years for her to die.
Why give the angel a sword? Its a freaking angel! It can kill with mind-bullets or something without a single atom of exertion. Whats the sword going to do?
Why not a M203 Minigun?
If Angels needed swords then the 1000 strong unit of angels, led by Gabriel, present at Badar wouldnt have been so effective in killing or wounding over 5% of the enemy combatants, assuming that the mortal muslims present killed nobody.

Just so many anomolys to be honest. i could go on for hours.....
Reply

Snowflake
04-12-2008, 11:36 AM
You state its not free will as we possess it. Which seems clear from your description. Its simply a mass of contradictions in terms.
How is it contradictory? I admit the 'slave' example was a bit rubbish lol. But we're looking at two things that are separate qualities i.e. the ability to think and the ability to choose want we want to do. Angels can think, as they had when they questioned Allah swt. So they have the choice to do that. To be able to ask questions you've got to have some free will right? And that's the limit for angels. It may not be free will as our is for us humans but for an angel who cannot disobey God, it's as much free will as ours is to us. Barney, how's that difficult to comprehend? lol

As I say, you cant have bound free will. Will is free or it is not.
If the will is free. then angels could rebel. If its not they are automons.
We can't apply our definition of free will to other beings in other dimensions since will is in accordance to the purpose we are made for. Even as a human being my will however free one says it is is limited according to my abilities. I could will to do to PhD but I know I won't be able to. So now how do we define free will?

Malaikah: What you need is to understand the difference between need and want. Just because God wants to have angels doesn't mean He needs to have angels.
Spot on! :thumbs_up
Reply

Snowflake
04-12-2008, 11:56 AM
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by barney
I love the idea of Angels as well. They definatly add flavour, mystique and interest.

I would question why God wants angels, I know he wouldnt need them, nor would he need them to have wings.
He popped one outside eden with a sword to stop adam and Eve sneaking back in.
Why? Why not just make eden just inaccessable to them. They cross the line and they die or mayby in tune with his mercy, they just cant walk any further.
Why tie up an angel for 900 years till they die? Or longer if Eve outlived Adam, as girls generally live longer. Thats a Angel out of action waiting 1200 odd years for her to die.
Why shouldn't God want angels? It doesn't mean He cannot do everything Himself. Why not consider that God created angels so us mere mortals realise His powers of creation? Why did man create remote controls when we can walk to the TV and change channels that way? If man can show his abilities like that then why can't God do the same?


Why give the angel a sword? Its a freaking angel! It can kill with mind-bullets or something without a single atom of exertion. Whats the sword going to do?
Why not a M203 Minigun?
If Angels needed swords then the 1000 strong unit of angels, led by Gabriel, present at Badar wouldnt have been so effective in killing or wounding over 5% of the enemy combatants, assuming that the mortal muslims present killed nobody.

Just so many anomolys to be honest. i could go on for hours.....
If Allah wanted he could've destroyed the Quraish full stop. But praise be to Allah who is Fair & Just. Isn't is amazing that He sent angels with swords to fight the Quraish in fairness of their means of battle? It wouldn't have been fair otherwise. Just as it wasn't fair that the muslims were unprepared and outnumbered for the battle. Allah rewarded their trust in Him with His help and victory.
Reply

InToTheRain
04-12-2008, 12:15 PM
The Angels always obey Allah(SWT) but it is not like the elationship between a person and it's machine. The Angels have their own will, and opinion, and even defer on opinion from what I have read.

[PIE]For example when Allah(SWT) instructed Gibrael(AS) to get soil from the earth to create Adam(AS) The earth said: "I seek refuge in Allah from your decreasing my quantity or disfiguring
me." So Gabriel returned and did not take anything. He said: "My Lord, the land sought refuge in
You and it granted."
So Allah sent Michael for the same purpose, and the land sought refuge with Allah and it was
granted. So he went back and said to Allah what Gabriel has said before him. Then Allah sent the Angel of Death, and the land sought refuge in Allah, the angel said: "I also seek refuge with Allah from returning without carrying out His command." So he took clay from the face of the earthand mixed it. He did not take from one particular place, but rather he took white, red, and black clay from different places.
[/PIE]

Angels always obey Allah(SWT), all 3 angels in the above example did as they were instructed BUT they had a difference in opinion, they have their own will, not all are the same. They all Love Allah(SWT) and Allah(SWT) loves them.

Why Allah(SWT) created Angels? so that they maybe grateful or maybe because Alah(SWT) is the only one capable of making such creations so He(SWT) thought he should do this as know one else is capable?
Do I think I will always be able to comprehend why Allah(SWT) does what He does with my limits? does it change the fact that it is true or false?

Have I got better things to think about? yes :D
Reply

barney
04-12-2008, 02:24 PM
[QUOTE=Muslimah_Sis;926680]

Why shouldn't God want angels? It doesn't mean He cannot do everything Himself. Why not consider that God created angels so us mere mortals realise His powers of creation?

If Allah wanted he could've destroyed the Quraish full stop. But praise be to Allah who is Fair & Just. Isn't is amazing that He sent angels with swords to fight the Quraish in fairness of their means of battle? It wouldn't have been fair otherwise. Just as it wasn't fair that the muslims were unprepared and outnumbered for the battle. Allah rewarded their trust in Him with His help and victory.
Stuff in Purple:
Thats a brilliant explaination, and one that I've considered over the years. The only flaw with it, is Angels are mostly invisible. Theyve been seen a handful of times, centuries ago in dubious circumstances. They are an invisible intangible sign of his power, who help people hear danger or see danger when they dont hear or see the danger by making them hear and see the danger.
Myself I call that reactions.
On the one occassion that they came to earth in force, over a battalion of them, Badar happened...which leds us on to

Stuff in Blue:
14 muslims died at that battle. Indeed the Quareshi were outnumbered, until the angels came.
That took the Quareshi force of 1300 facing the Muslim force of 300 Mortals and 1000 Angels.
In order to make it a "fair fight", the 1000 invisible intangible flying sword weilding Angels with their unworldly earth shattering powers, and numbering a thousand, each one capable of destroying galaxies with a blink of an eye attack, unseen by any of the warriors present except the Prophet and after several hours, the results are pretty consistant with what you would expect if you faced 300 highly motivated fanatical fearless desperate and poor warriors against 1000 fat rich caravan gaurds.
The result is not consistant with a outnumbered band getting hit by over a battalion of beings with almost infinate power.

If Bromhead at Rourkes drift said "God help us", and he probably did, then the 3700 Zulus attacking the completly surrounded 112 Redcoats were certainly not aware of lightning bolts from the sky or angels conducting volley fire by ranks. This diddnt change the result of 16 casulties on the british side vs 1700 on the Zulu.

It's my beleif that the Angels were not present, that perhaps it was more of a metaphor, or even that the Prophet said it to motivate his attackers.

At the end of the day, it is indeed a leap of faith. But this is definatly a situation for myself where I can see, not the hand of God, but the words of Man.
Reply

Snowflake
04-12-2008, 04:37 PM
[QUOTE][QUOTE=barney;926720]
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis

Stuff in Purple:
Thats a brilliant explaination, and one that I've considered over the years. The only flaw with it, is Angels are mostly invisible. Theyve been seen a handful of times, centuries ago in dubious circumstances. They are an invisible intangible sign of his power, who help people hear danger or see danger when they dont hear or see the danger by making them hear and see the danger.
Myself I call that reactions.
On the one occassion that they came to earth in force, over a battalion of them, Badar happened...which leds us on to
How is being invisable a flaw? And how can anyone react to something they are unaware of - unless divine intervention is at work?

Stuff in Blue:
14 muslims died at that battle. Indeed the Quareshi were outnumbered, until the angels came.
That took the Quareshi force of 1300 facing the Muslim force of 300 Mortals and 1000 Angels.
In order to make it a "fair fight", the 1000 invisible intangible flying sword weilding Angels with their unworldly earth shattering powers, and numbering a thousand, each one capable of destroying galaxies with a blink of an eye attack, unseen by any of the warriors present except the Prophet and after several hours, the results are pretty consistant with what you would expect if you faced 300 highly motivated fanatical fearless desperate and poor warriors against 1000 fat rich caravan gaurds.
The result is not consistant with a outnumbered band getting hit by over a battalion of beings with almost infinate power.
Barney, how do you know the angels fighting in the battle of Badr used their supernatural powers or by the will of Allah, in fairness used the force equivalent to humans? You agree that each angel might've possessed earth-shattering powers - then why the need for 1000 - in your own words, one was enough.... unless they weren't allowed to use their unmatched powers?

Also the verse in the Quran where Allah promised to send 1000 angels to help the muslims was revealed in Mecca before any of the events at Badr had ever taken place. So the Quran marked this miraculous occurence before it even happened. God knew. And you still believe not in the Word of God?


It's my beleif that the Angels were not present, that perhaps it was more of a metaphor, or even that the Prophet said it to motivate his attackers.
Muhammed (PBUH) never uttered a lie... nevermind metaphorically - not even jokingly. And why would Muhammed (PBUH) want to motivate his attackers - since their motive was to attack muslims in the first place. :confused:

At the end of the day, it is indeed a leap of faith. But this is definatly a situation for myself where I can see, not the hand of God, but the words of Man.
Barney, how much conviction do you have in the existence of God? Just curious.. :)
Reply

barney
04-12-2008, 04:52 PM
[QUOTE=Muslimah_Sis;926772][QUOTE]
Originally Posted by barney
How is being invisable a flaw? And how can anyone react to something they are unaware of - unless divine intervention is at work?


Barney, how do you know the angels fighting in the battle of Badr used their supernatural powers or by the will of Allah, in fairness used the force equivalent to humans? You agree that each angel might've possessed earth-shattering powers - then why the need for 1000 - in your own words, one was enough.... unless they weren't allowed to use their unmatched powers?

Also the verse in the Quran where Allah promised to send 1000 angels to help the muslims was revealed in Mecca before any of the events at Badr had ever taken place. So the Quran marked this miraculous occurence before it even happened. God knew. And you still believe not in the Word of God?



Muhammed (PBUH) never uttered a lie... nevermind metaphorically - not even jokingly. And why would Muhammed (PBUH) want to motivate his attackers - since their motive was to attack muslims in the first place. :confused:


Barney, how much conviction do you have in the existence of God? Just curious.. :)
The idea that they would drop in and start a fair fight against oppressors and disbelivers and none saw them, faithful or otherwise and the casulties were ridiculously low, and mohammed shouted that the angels were assisting in mid-battle. It's ,to me, a clear cut case.

I have a strong faith in Gods Existance, which I can reasonably prove,And a equal disbeleif in scripture which I can reasonably disprove.


The attackers being motivated in my example were the Muslims. Mohammeds cry was directed towards them.

Theres tons more on this, but i'm on a night shift, so I'm off to bed.

Laters.
Reply

chacha_jalebi
04-14-2008, 06:04 PM
wooooooh

thread has gone more off topic, then a lost choo choo train

original question was answered, so

:threadclo
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-08-2012, 07:15 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-12-2009, 11:15 PM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-16-2008, 06:39 PM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-11-2008, 06:23 PM
  5. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 11-21-2006, 07:01 AM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!