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D.Y.R#7XTRUST
01-29-2007, 04:18 AM
By using the modern science of probability in reference to just eight of these prophecies --- the chance that any man might have lived to fulfill all eight prophecies is one in one hundred trillion!

To illustrate this: If we take 100 trillion silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas, they would be two feet deep. Now we mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly --- all over the state. Now blindfold a man and let him travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick only one silver dollar. What chance would he have of picking the right one? The same chance that the prophets would have of writing just eight of these prophecies and having them all come true for any one man --- if they had written them without God's inspiration!

Below are eight prophecies of Christs coming written 2 to 3000 years before His coming. Also it's important to note that there are over 300 predictions and fore-shadowings of Christ in a combined total.


(1.) Psalm 22. A Fore-Picture of the Crucifixion

"My God, My God, why hast Thou Forsaken Me?", 1. Even His Dying Words Foretold, Matt 27:46

"All that see Me laugh Me to scorn, saying...He Trusted in God, let God deliver Him",7,8. Sneers of His Enemies, in their exact words, Matt 27:43.

"They Pierced My Hands and Feet", 16. This indicates Crucifixion as the manner of His Death, John 20:20, 25.

"They part my Garments among them, and cast lots upon My Vesture", 18. Even this detail is Forecast, Matt 27:35.

What can all this refer to except the Crucifixion of Jesus? Yet it was Written a Thousand Years Before it happened.


(2.) Psalm 41:9. To be Betrayed by a Friend

"My own familiar Friend, in whom I Trusted, who did eat my bread, lifted up his heel against me."

Apparently, David is referring to his own friend, Ahitophel, 2 Sam 15:12. But Jesus quoted it as a Picture-Prophecy of His own Betrayal By Judas, John 13:18-27; Luke 22:47-48.

(3.) Psalm 69:21. Gall and Vinegar

"They gave me Gall for my food; and in my thirst they gave me Vinegar to drink".

Another incident in the Fore-Picture of the Coming Messiah's Sufferings, Matt 27:34, 48.

(4.) Isaiah 7:13-14. Immanuel

"O house of David...a Virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a Son, and shall call His Name Immanuel".

This seems to say that Some One, to be called Immanuel, will be born in David's Family, of a Virgin: evidently meaning the same Person as the Branch of 4:2 and 11:1, and the Wonderful Child 9:6. The Deity of the Child is implied in the name Immanuel, which means "God With Us". Thus the Virgin Birth and Deity of the Messiah are here Foretold. It is quoted in Matt 1:23 as referring to Jesus.


(5.) Isaiah 9:1-2,6-7. The Wonderful Child

"In Galilee...the people have seen a Great Light", 1,2. "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the Government shall be upon His shoulder: and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His Government and Peace there shall be No End, upon the Throne of David, and upon His Kingdom, from henceforth even Forever", 6,7.

This Child, unmistakably, is the ETERNAL KING promised to David's Family, 2 Sam 7:16: the same Person spoken of centuries earlier as Shiloh, the Star, and the Prophet like unto Moses. His Deity is here emphasized. His ministry to be in Galilee. A very accurate Fore-Cast of Jesus.

(6.) Isaiah 11:1-10. Reign of the Branch

"There shall come forth a Rod out of the Stem of Jesse, a Branch shall grow out of His roots" 1.

That is, a Shoot out of the Stump of David's Family Tree, meaning the Messiah.

"And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, the spirit of Wisdom and Understanding", 2..."He shall stand for an Ensign to the Peoples, and to Him shall the Nations Gather", 10.

"He shall smite the earth with the Rod of His Mouth", 4. And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb. The leopard shall lie down with the kid: and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together. And a little child shall lead them.

"The cow and the bear shall feed: their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox...

"They shall not Hurt nor Destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the Knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea", 6-9.

A Magnificent Description of Universal Peace in the World-To-Be under the Reign of the Coming Messiah.


(7.) Isaiah 53. The Messiah's Sufferings

"He is Despised and Rejected of men; a Man of Sorrows and acquainted with Grief...He hath borne our Griefs and carried our Sorrows...He was Wounded for Our Transgressions, and Bruised for Our Iniquities...With His Strips We are Healed.

"The Lord hath laid on Him the Iniquity of Us All...He was Oppressed, He was Afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth. He is brought as a Lamb to the Slaughter...He poured out His soul unto Death...and Bore the Sin of Many...

"It pleased the Lord to Bruise Him...to make His Soul an Offering for Sin...And the Pleasure of the Lord shall Prosper in His Hand...By Knowledge of Him shall Many be Justified".

The most conspicuous feature in the Prophecies about the Coming King is that He would be a Sufferer. It was hinted in Abel's Sacrifice, and in Abraham's Offering of Isaac, and vividly fore-pictured in the Institution of the Passover Feast, and in the Annual Day of Atonement, and some of its details described in Psalm 22. And here, in Isaiah 53, detail upon detail is added making the picture more complete. And in chapters 54, 55, 60, 61, the Suffering King Fills the Earth with Songs of Joy. Marvelous Forecasts of the Christian Era.


(8.) Zechariah

"I will bring forth My Servant The BRANCH", 3:8. "O Jerusalem, thy King cometh to thee... Lowly, Riding upon a Colt", 9:9. "In that day the House of David shall be as God", 12:8. "I will Remove the Iniquity of the Land in One Day", 3:9. "They weighed fro my price Thirty Pieces of Silver... and Cast them to the Potter", 11:12, 13. "They shall look upon Me Whom they have Pierced", 12:10. "In that day a Fountain shall be Opened...for Sin and Uncleanness", 13:1.
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Malaikah
01-29-2007, 04:36 AM
I'm sorry, I must be really slow, but I don't actually understand any of these prophecies... Could you perhaps elaborate? Maybe you could specify which is written in the OT and which in the NT for those of us who can't tell...

It would be particularly helpful if you could explain the first one... seems interesting.

Should we provide you examples of the many, many prophecies also made by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh that have come true?? :D This is comparative religion after all...
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rav
01-29-2007, 04:37 AM
Zechariah 8:7:

8:7. So said the L-rd of Hosts: Behold I will save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west.

The greatest part of the prophecy is the fact that it tells the direction Israel will come from! Over 800,000 Arab Jews from Iran, Iraq, Yemen and other Arab lands came from the east to Israel when the state was created and Arab riots against them began. In the west lays Europe, where millions of homeless Jews came from after the Holocaust.
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D.Y.R#7XTRUST
01-29-2007, 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
I'm sorry, I must be really slow, but I don't actually understand any of these prophecies... Could you perhaps elaborate? Maybe you could specify which is written in the OT and which in the NT for those of us who can't tell...

It would be particularly helpful if you could explain the first one... seems interesting.

Should we provide you examples of the many, many prophecies also made by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh that have come true?? :D This is comparative religion after all...

They are all from the Old Testament, and if you want the New Testament verses, each description has the verse reference. Just go to www.biblegateway.com

(1.) Psalm 22. A Fore-Picture of the Crucifixion

"My God, My God, why hast Thou Forsaken Me?", 1. Even His Dying Words Foretold, Matt 27:46

What Jesus meant when He said these words was this: He was to be seperated from the father as He descended into Hell to led captive free. So it was a cry of lonliness.

The below is self-explanatory.

"All that see Me laugh Me to scorn, saying...He Trusted in God, let God deliver Him",7,8. Sneers of His Enemies, in their exact words, Matt 27:43.

"They Pierced My Hands and Feet", 16. This indicates Crucifixion as the manner of His Death, John 20:20, 25.

"They part my Garments among them, and cast lots upon My Vesture", 18. Even this detail is Forecast, Matt 27:35.

What can all this refer to except the Crucifixion of Jesus? Yet it was Written a Thousand Years Before it happened.
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D.Y.R#7XTRUST
01-29-2007, 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by D.Y.R#7XTRUST
They are all from the Old Testament, and if you want the New Testament verses, each description has the verse reference. Just go to www.biblegateway.com

(1.) Psalm 22. A Fore-Picture of the Crucifixion

"My God, My God, why hast Thou Forsaken Me?", 1. Even His Dying Words Foretold, Matt 27:46

What Jesus meant when He said these words was this: He was to be seperated from the father as He descended into Hell to led captive free. So it was a cry of lonliness.

The below is self-explanatory.

"All that see Me laugh Me to scorn, saying...He Trusted in God, let God deliver Him",7,8. Sneers of His Enemies, in their exact words, Matt 27:43.

"They Pierced My Hands and Feet", 16. This indicates Crucifixion as the manner of His Death, John 20:20, 25.

"They part my Garments among them, and cast lots upon My Vesture", 18. Even this detail is Forecast, Matt 27:35.

What can all this refer to except the Crucifixion of Jesus? Yet it was Written a Thousand Years Before it happened.
Also, He was only to be seperated for 3 days. Long enough for Him to trow our sins into hell and to make the captives that belonged to Him free.
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D.Y.R#7XTRUST
01-29-2007, 05:04 AM
My personal testimony summarized:




I grew up in the country, a small town in Nova Scotia. Went to Sunday school on a regular basis, until my father was offended with a statement made by church leaders about his best friend. So, at the age of 8, I was no longer allowed to attained church.
My father was and still is an alcoholic, who when under the influence became very violent. He would beat my mother, me and younger brothers because he seemed to enjoy looking at the fear within our eyes. It got worse as the years progressed; it was becoming common that I would have to go to the hospital to be stitched up. Being the oldest, I got the worse of his uncalled for punishments. By the age of 13, suicide was a common thought within my mind, I became very depressed and slept away most of the days, crying to God, Why God, Why!! Even coming to the point of overdosing on a sleep aid, and sleeping for 3 days straight, only to awake and see that you were still alive.

By 14, I myself started a new habit. Stealing beer whenever I could just to deal with this so called life I was given. Then, it was occasional, just a weekend type thing. My father was still beating us almost it seemed on a daily basis. But by this time, such behaviour seemed normal to me, I became callous to such. By 15 I started dating, and getting into much premarital sex, me and my father would fight on a weekly basis with our hands. Throwing punches at each-other, just hoping one of our heads would just come off of the shoulder.

By 16 after 2 years of me and my father physically fighting each other, he finally pushed my last nerve by grabbing a girl I was with by the throat. Needless to say my temperament shot like the lightning in a storm, never was I ever so mad. I remember hitting him, not caring if he lived or not. By the end of that night we both were in the hospital and facing assault charges. These are the days I would love to forget.

That night I moved away from home, only 16, to face a world that I never knew existed. Living with the girl that my father physically harmed and her parents, trying to figure out where to go next in this life. At 16, your mind is weak, you are ignorant, not knowing what road to take, not even knowing that there are other avenues in life. MY ONLY THOUGHTS WERE SERVIVAL, this animal like instinct that lives deep down inside us, telling us to pursue a life. I would like to tell you that I chose the right road, but I didn’t, things only got worse.

My relationship with this girl shortly ended, and I found myself homeless, living on the streets of an uncaring society. But I never lived there long, I soon meet some people who took me inn, never did I know what would come next. This guy seemed very nice and we became good friends, study partners in school, each others coach and partners in every day life. But the problem was his mother; she seriously thought she was Satan himself. She would speak to you as a woman, and then her voice would become deep like a man, speaking in an unknown tongue. Needless to say, I was scared, this is the first time I had met a lady that had a so called mental disorder and not just a mental disorder, she thought she was the devil. So when I would sleep at night, I would drag the wardrobe in front of the door to my bedroom. I don’t think she could be trusted.

But one day, this so called friend got very upset for no reason at all. I don’t know if he was jealous of me and my new friends or what it was, but we all just finished smoking some weed. The first time I had ever touched the stuff, so I didn’t know what was going on. Then this so called friend grabbed a knife and swung it at one of my new found friends, for no apparent reason. I then stepped in to protect him, that’s when the blade came at me. About 2 inches from my shoulder, when I grabbed the blade that would of harmed me physically. At this time I am laughing uncontrollably, as a side affect of the weed. He is now becoming madder, and madder at my laughter, thinking it is directed at him, not knowing it was a result of me being high. So then because of my laughter he started grabbing objects from around the home and casting them in our direction, so we took the opportunity and left the premises.

Luckily, one of my new found friends and her mother took me inn. For they knew the family personally, and knew what they were like and capable of. My friends mother, we will call her Ann, had personally looked after the knife bearing friends mother. For Ann was the R.N manager of a Mental Health unit, in the town’s local hospital. So she had much experience with this family. She was also a caring individual, who took in many strays when necessary.

I lived with them from the age of 16 to 19, while attending school. By this time I had meet many more people who I had become friends with. Drinking has by this time become a huge problem, I would start drinking at around 6:A.M and continue until night or when I would pass out. Even drinking while in school, just to escape the reality that I had now made for myself. The Law also was not a stranger to me, I had no cares for anything or anybody, receiving charges for things like assault, mischief under $5000, breaches of probation and undertakings, resisting arrest, break and enter etc, etc. My life was now going from bad to worse.

I soon found myself in a serious relationship; I thought at the time that I truly found the love of my life. By this time I am around 19 or 20, not exactly sure. Drinking on a daily basis and into drugs like marijuana, cocaine, exstacy, speed etc. I don’t even know what reality is at this point anymore, my reality looked like this. Wake up, drink, smoke and sniff anything that could be consumed through your nose without death. My lifestyle was catching up to me, losing approximately 40 pounds of body weight and looking like a walking dead man.

Me and the girl I am with are now selling drugs just to support the addictions we both have, hauling in almost a $1000 a week. And that is with being picky about who we sold too, not wanting to draw attention to such dealings. I am now at this point beyond depression and now in the realm of defeat. What I see through my eyes at this point is NO HOPE, what I see is a life that has become like those you see on TV. A life full of nothingness.

6 months after my relationship with this girl she becomes pregnant. I now face being a father. Many thoughts are going through my mind, how can I be a father, how can I bring up a child, how can I, this man of NO HOPE show hope. I feel nothing at this point, these thoughts bring no resolution, and they only make me realize even more the pitiful state that I am in!!!!

Shortly after the birth of my daughter, my common law relationship starts to plunder. She becomes major depressed and our fighting has now come to the point of hatred. She soon starts seeing another man and I soon get jealous.

I and my friends one night came back to my residents, only to find her with another man. My heart just burned within me, I took his car and pushed it into the ditch, then proceeded inside. Well I tried to proceed inside, but the door was locked. So my friends pushed me up to the window and I opened it from the outside and proceeded through. Then opened the door for my friends to come in. Around that time, her and her boyfriend came from the bedroom. Not what I wanted to see, I remember grabbing him by the throat and threatening to kill him as he picked up a baseball bat in defence. I had prior to this incident drunk a 40 ouncer of whiskey and was not in a clear state of mind. Needless to say that night the bat hit me, and the next thing I remember was being in jail.

They released me on the condition that I would not enter back into this town. They told me I was a threat to the general public and that many people were scared to be in my presence. So I had to hitchhike 70k.m back home with a shiner that took up about 30% of my face and a hangover that made me gag with thirst and dehydration. I remember getting to the point, where my legs didn’t want to walk another inch and praying to God saying if you are really on your throne in heaven show me a sign by giving me a drive home.

Maybe 5 minutes after this prayer, a car came barrelling down the highway and stopped to pick me up. Believe it or not this man was a minister, who had Biblical literature strung all over the seats of his car. We spoke for a bit, not about God, But about life. I found it strange though. (Considering my prayer and this man). Once I arrived home to my mother’s residence, she told me that she left my father because he beat her to the point where she no longer could handle such a life and that he was sentenced to 1 year in prison.

After getting settled in, my brother came to me and spoke to me about Christ. I said what are you crazy, you go to church now? Yes he replied. I said when did you start going to church. He replied 6 months ago. I’m like thinking what in the world is going on, everybody is now going to church.

After about 2 more months of my drinking and drug use, my thoughts were beginning to get worse. My mother could not be around me, because I reminded her to much of my father. The way I acted, and the amount I depended on the bottle to get me through life. So every time I would come home drunk, the police would come behind me. I totally understood why she didn’t want me in her presence, it was because I became who I didn’t want to become, my dad. This realization caused my heart to burn even more than ever, my eyes even burned with tears, my mind even burned with the words, you are TRASH! But it wasn’t just me who was burning; it was my poor little mother also. I know she loved me, but she could not accept who I became and neither could I.

I was now at the point in my life where I would kill, I wanted to kill. I wanted to kill so I would no longer hurt those around me. I wanted to live my life in isolation, in a place where I could not touch those who were around me. I wanted life in prison, I agree this sounds crazy, but these were my actual thoughts. Just think I am in bondage to a lifestyle that I can’t undue. I don’t know how to escape…I just don’t…………..

So then shortly later, maybe a day or 2 after thinking such thoughts. I decided to take my brothers offer about going to church. I remember sitting there in the service, listening to the pastor and laughing within my mind. But then something happened, something grabbed me by my filthy confused heart. I went home with my brother after the service and asked him about salvation. He passed me this tract that portrayed 911, and I felt compelled to pray to God.

Lord God save me from this life of sin. I believe that you died for me, I believe that you took my sins on the cross with you. I want your peace, I want your love, I want you in me. Forgive me Lord…..Forgive me Lord for the sake of Christ….It was at that moment that I felt a stream of warmth flow threw my entire body, I felt a weight being lifted from my shoulders. I believe at that very moment, Christ himself breathed His Holy Spirit into my body and took all my burdens and put them on himself…At that very moment my addiction to alcohol, drugs and sex were taken away. This was God; I know it for a fact. I’ve seen so many addiction counsellors, and never could I overcome these addictions. But that day, at that moment and that hour Christ himself took them away from my body. I lie to you not; the Lord also bears witness with me and also my conscience. It was GOD on Sept. 7/2003.

So whenever anybody asks me why I believe in Jesus, here is my answer. ..I experienced His power firsthand in my life.

Amen (So be it)
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Umar001
01-29-2007, 11:35 PM
So you believe in Christianity to be the unchanged right religion because you had a truck driver give you a lift who was a preacher and then you Christian family who had stopped going church because of your father, had started going again once your father was in prison. Also you had a sort of supernatural feeling and you are certain it was God.

Hmm, interesting.

I have Muslim friends who tell me similar, also a Jewish friend who told me God kissed him when he went to the temple, so either God is wanting all of us to follow different religions or some of us are being tricked. Then again, I guess most of us will always believe and never refuse to let ourselfs think that we could be fooled by other forces.

As for what was brought to the discussion, I will touch on Isaiah 7 and 9 since I have spoken on it already and since replyin on these topics takes much effort:


Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Peace be upon yall.

Just so we have some peace of mind from these statments we can take a look at 3 of them. This is from research and hardly anything is my own 'new work' so May The G-d of Abraham, Guide the Christians who have worked hard to get closer to truth and Bless both Christians and Muslims who have earnestly and honestly worked for only G-d.

Now it is stated:

1. Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."

Now there are many approaches that cane be taken, First and foremost we can for the sake of arguement agree this is Jesus, thought hardly much indicates that but a preconditioned mind.

One point, never did Jesus have a goverment, Jesus explictly said 'My kingdom is not of this world' and 'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's' (John 18:36 and Matthew 22:21)

To go on, we see for some reason the words used are Might G-d and not Almighty G-d. I would advise you to read the Hebrew word for Mighty, from my research it is 'Gibbowr' people may thing its a little thing but in reality it isn't because..if you check what this word can be translated as it ranges from
1. strong, mighty n m
2. strong man, brave man, mighty man
"Source "

So this Gibbowr is a word which can be used for men, and we see now why Isaiah hasnt used ALMIGHTY which is only for G-d alone.

Also, lets look at the word here translated as G-d, El, this is famous, come on, this Refers to G-d but men too, you should know, any Christian knows what the Bible claims Jesus said on the Cross, Eli Eli... and people thought he was calling to a Man.
Also we see the bible uses this El, in single and plural to talk about Men.
Exodus 7:1 1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Here it is the plural used to show Moses' position over Pharoe.

1. (plural)
1. rulers, judges
2. divine ones
3. angels
4. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
1. god, goddess
2. godlike one
3. works or special possessions of God
4. the (true) God
5. God
Source

Also, In Psalsm 82:1 it says 'God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.' with the word El Source

This El aparently carries the meaning of:

1. god, god-like one, mighty one
1. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
2. angels
3. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
4. God, the one true God, Jehovah
2. mighty things in nature
3. strength, power

Source

Now after all that we can also look at the other terms such as 'Everlasting Father'

Now some example of the term everlasting or forever used with regards to people in the Bible:

Ezekiel 37:25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

And the term father.

Genesis 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Job 29:16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.

Again this is a simple mistake of people taking things out of a vacuum, the language used was clear to the Jews the recipients, Almighty to them was much more than just Mighty so with the world El and YHWH. It would be like me writing a letter saying, 'your an angel and a prince' and someone in another country centruies later reading it taking it in a vacuum without the understanding of my time and saying 'look, see his friend was an angel with wings from heaven and a prince of heaven' see what I mean?

Plus, I would like to state that this Prophecy says, "name shall be called" so these are names, not what the person is, There is a difference between someone being called, G-d's strenght and actually them being G-d's real strenght. This propechy was only saying this persons names, it doesn't say 'He WILL BE MIGHT GOD'.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

2. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23).

Again, This was a name, this states 'he will be called', its a name.

I have also answered this before:

Matthew 1:32 - 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

My Response: Ok, Emmanuel meaning G-d is with us. How does this mean Jesus is G-d? Because Jesus is going to be with them, that means Jesus is G-d since Jesus is with them? This is scripture read within the context of scripture.

Luke 1:27 - 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Does this now mean that G-d was with her in human form and that he was right there, because it says ‘the Lord is with thee’??? Just as Emmanuel is G-d is with us?

(Just as an extra thing, read a little on and see: 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David’

‘He, talking about Jesus, shall be great, and, Jesus, shall be called Son of the Highest: and the Lord G-d shall give him..,’ So The Lord G-d is going to give Jesus something, now if you believe Jesus is G-d, you will believe: The Lord G-d is going to Give The Lord God something. (Mark says, Follow G-d with all your mind)

So I ask, when the angel said G-d is with you, was G-d with Mary in physical form, I think not, I believe he meant in favor, since he did say ‘you have found favor with the Lord. This is echoed in Biblical talk, look at Exodus 17:7 - 7 And he called the name of the place Massah and Mer'ibah, because of the faultfinding of the children of Israel, and because they put the LORD to the proof by saying, "Is the LORD among us or not?"

Did they mean literally? Or were they asking if he was in favor of them, if he was supporting them? I urge yall to read it. Also view the book of Numbers 14:42 and 43 - 42 Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies. 43 For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from the LORD, therefore the LORD will not be with you.

The reason here is given: the LORD will not be with you because you turned away from Him. Was He physically with them? Or was he with them in favor and blessings?

Look at wars, for examples, Muslims probably believe G-d is with them, and so do Jews, have either of them seen Him? Nope. Yet they believe he is with them.

And I will ask you to just show us where Jesus was called Immanuel, if there isn't a place where he was then I mean, isn't that an unfufilled prophecy?

Plus we can go into it from another angle, which others have:

The verse quoted is: 14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Any one who has studied at school, by the Grace of The Most High, will tell you that when a verse starts with 'Therefore', it is more than likely connected with the previous.

Read the CONTEXT:

Verse 3Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;

4And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.

5Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,

6Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:

7Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

8For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

9And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.

10Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,

11Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

12But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.

13And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This is a whole different topic betwen people.

Another thing, the word virgin here, has been deemed not to be a right translation. Thus the RVS, revised by 30 scholars backed by 50 denomination and so on, changed it to (well I cant find the RVS online but in mine at home it says) ' a young woman' with a foot note saying virgin' hard to let go of old fashions.
Strong's dictionary also says it means:
1. virgin, young woman
1. of marriageable age
2. maid or newly married ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin. (TWOT)

Source

So we see the attempt here, its basically saying, nowhere does can it be proven that the young woman is not a virgin. Lol what logic.
According to this dictionary this appears in several places, I'll cross-reference to see what the RVS has translated the word in these places:
Genesis 24:43 'young woman'
Exodus 2:8 'girl'
Pslams 68:25 'maidens'
Proverbs 30:19 'maidens'
Solomon 1:3 'maindens
Solomon 6:8 'maidens'

Plus I dont think the NIV also uses Virgin for any of these instances except...you guessed it, Isaiah 7:14, how convinient.

So the RVS shows no virgins for this word, except in the footnote at Isaiah 7:14 I guess we can see, the holding onto old ways.

And maiden is generally used for a young woman or girl, and yes it can mean virgin, since a young woman are.

The arguement comes at the fact that there is a clear cut word for Virgin in the Hebrew and it is only logical that if Isaiah wanted to convey a virgin birth he would have used it.

All the view points are from different aspects, some stronger than the others, but Isaiah 7:14 sure doesnt prove anyone's divinity.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
I am not here to demolish faith, but rather to show that faith can be polished, noone here denies the power of God in our lifes but rather some acknowledge the power of deception of Satan and it is upto man to come to a conclusion and disctinction between the two with the endowments Almighty God has given, to worship a person out of love while the person is not God is not love, rather to worship in truth what is truth is true love.

I do not worship Jesus merely because my love for him is at the highest it can be for a human, thus I rather love him in truth then exced and thus not love him but rather my desires.

In the hope of building bridges,

Brother Eesa Abdullah, [Jesus, Servant of Almighty God]
Reply

rav
01-29-2007, 11:42 PM
(7.) Isaiah 53. The Messiah's Sufferings

"He is Despised and Rejected of men; a Man of Sorrows and acquainted with Grief...He hath borne our Griefs and carried our Sorrows...He was Wounded for Our Transgressions, and Bruised for Our Iniquities...With His Strips We are Healed.

"The Lord hath laid on Him the Iniquity of Us All...He was Oppressed, He was Afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth. He is brought as a Lamb to the Slaughter...He poured out His soul unto Death...and Bore the Sin of Many...

"It pleased the Lord to Bruise Him...to make His Soul an Offering for Sin...And the Pleasure of the Lord shall Prosper in His Hand...By Knowledge of Him shall Many be Justified".

The most conspicuous feature in the Prophecies about the Coming King is that He would be a Sufferer. It was hinted in Abel's Sacrifice, and in Abraham's Offering of Isaac, and vividly fore-pictured in the Institution of the Passover Feast, and in the Annual Day of Atonement, and some of its details described in Psalm 22. And here, in Isaiah 53, detail upon detail is added making the picture more complete. And in chapters 54, 55, 60, 61, the Suffering King Fills the Earth with Songs of Joy. Marvelous Forecasts of the Christian Era.
Actually this does not refer to Jesus at all. Would you like to know why?

I have Muslim friends who tell me similar, also a Jewish friend who told me God kissed him when he went to the temple, so either God is wanting all of us to follow different religions or some of us are being tricked. Then again, I guess most of us will always believe and never refuse to let ourselfs think that we could be fooled by other forces.
Not to difficult of a concept. Judaism teaches that other monotheistic religions that follow the seven laws are valid forms of worshiping G-d for non-Jews.

4.) Isaiah 7:13-14. Immanuel

"O house of David...a Virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a Son, and shall call His Name Immanuel".

This seems to say that Some One, to be called Immanuel, will be born in David's Family, of a Virgin: evidently meaning the same Person as the Branch of 4:2 and 11:1, and the Wonderful Child 9:6. The Deity of the Child is implied in the name Immanuel, which means "God With Us". Thus the Virgin Birth and Deity of the Messiah are here Foretold. It is quoted in Matt 1:23 as referring to Jesus.
Read this:
http://messiahtruth.com/isa714o.html

In Summation:
Matthew mistranslated Isaiah 7:14 and pulled the verse out of context in order to support the claim that the Messiah would be the product of a virgin birth. This is clearly provable, given the language in Isaiah's prophecy, and the context therein.

(8.) Zechariah

"I will bring forth My Servant The BRANCH", 3:8. "O Jerusalem, thy King cometh to thee... Lowly, Riding upon a Colt", 9:9. "In that day the House of David shall be as God", 12:8. "I will Remove the Iniquity of the Land in One Day", 3:9. "They weighed fro my price Thirty Pieces of Silver... and Cast them to the Potter", 11:12, 13. "They shall look upon Me Whom they have Pierced", 12:10. "In that day a Fountain shall be Opened...for Sin and Uncleanness", 13:1.

One of the most dramatic scenes in the New Testament is Jesus' crucifixion. It seems so tragic, yet the story tells us it was all a fulfillment of prophecy:
John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: [34] But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. [35] And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. [36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. (KJV)
This passage would indicate that the piercing of Jesus was prophesied in the Jewish Scriptures. Such a bold claim must surely be verified.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (KJV)
The Christian claim is that John 19:33 is the fulfillment of this prophecy in Zechariah. The problems with this claim are with context and translation.



Context
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the L-RD for Israel, saith the L-RD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. [2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. (KJV)
These two verses set up the background. At some future date, the nations of the world will be gathered against the Jewish people, and will besiege the Jerusalem.
Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. [4] In that day, saith the L-RD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. [5] And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the L-RD of hosts their G-d. [6] In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. (KJV)
This siege is part of a tremendous war, the war of Gog and Magog. The Jews shall fight back against the enemy nations, and they shall be victorious.
Zechariah 12:7 The L-RD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. [8] In that day shall the L-RD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as G-d, as the angel of the L-RD before them. [9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Of course, the real source of the victory will be from Heaven.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. [11] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. [12] And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; [13] The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; [14] All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
The concluding verses speak of someone who is pierced and dies. His death will so shock the nation that the people will be moved to repentance and mourning, an intense mourning of this person who is killed that it would be as if they were mourning for a firstborn son. Verse 11 paints a rather dramatic picture of how widespread the mourning will be by comparing this mourning to the mourning the people did over the death of King Josiah, who was killed in battle against the Egyptians, as told in 2 Kings 23:29-30. 2 Chronicles 35:22-25 tells that all of Judah mourning for him.
Does Jesus fit this picture? Three points prevent this:
1) This scenario of war against the nations of the world didn't take place in Jesus' time.
2) The Jews (meaning the whole people) didn't mourn over Jesus' death according to the New Testament account.
3) This proof, like nearly all of Christianity's proofs, requires one to assume the conclusion, that Jesus is the Messiah and that he's special enough that the prophets would have written about him. If you approach the verse without believing in Jesus, there's really no reason to think that the verse refers to him.
Translation
The translation of this verse is rather awkward. Let's give it a closer look.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (KJV)
The speaker in this verse is the L-rd, yet in this translation, it appear that the Lord Himself is pierced. (Hence, the Christian connection, because they believe that Jesus is G-d in the flesh.) However, the rest of the verse would indicate that the L-rd was speaking of someone else. "For him" they shall mourn. "For him" there shall be bitterness.

The author of the Gospel of John apparently didn't see our verse from Zechariah the same way that the King James Bible translated it.
John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Note that in our verse from Zechariah, it reads "upon Me whom they have pierced." In this verse from John, it's now "on him whom they pierced." If G-d is the speaker, and He is the one being pierced (as if such a thing were possible), then it is reasonable to think that the rest of the verse would be consistent with this. John's quote is consistent, although taken out of context. John never saw the verse as the Lord being pierced, because John clearly believed that Jesus and G-d were two separate entities, as seen by the following:
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (KJV)
The context of the King James translation leads one to think that this is a mistranslation. Examining the Hebrew text of the verse will confirm this.
Reply

snakelegs
01-30-2007, 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by D.Y.R#7XTRUST
[B]By using the modern science of probability in reference to just eight of these prophecies --- the chance that any man might have lived to fulfill all eight prophecies is one in one hundred trillion!
this is no proof of anything. what you have given is merely the christian belief and interpretation of the old testament, which is fine, but evidence it is not.
Reply

north_malaysian
01-30-2007, 06:53 AM
Originally Posted by rav
Judaism teaches that other monotheistic religions that follow the seven laws are valid forms of worshiping G-d for non-Jews.
This is what our good jewish fellas - lavikor, therebbe and IzakHalevas been teaching us in the Question about Judaism thread...
Reply

Zulkiflim
01-30-2007, 04:10 PM
salaam,

The problem with propehcies is that the words are sometime so vague and people who want to see it to conform to this particular ideal,will try to explain it in that context.

As Zakir Naik said,,,,,even if there is one unfulfilled prophecy then that book is false.

It is akin to the story of the last day,when Dajjal will do numerous miracles and people will follow him due to miraculous actions..

But he will not be able to enter Makkah nor Madinah,,thus his power is restricted,he is not OMNIPOTENT ,,

Why dont you google for unfuliflled propehcies in the bible and torah?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-30-2007, 04:31 PM
If the prophecies really came true its because Jesus AS was a prophet and this doesnt prove the bible to be the word of God because the bible has tons of errors.


Islam also shares the same thoughts, Jesus AS was a prophet, one of the greatest messengers of Allaah swt. He made prophecies and did many miracles by the permission of Allaah swt , but in no way is the bible of today as pure as it was revealed to jesus, its been corrupted to the extent where you can even find incest in it...
Reply

lavikor201
01-30-2007, 11:26 PM
this doesnt prove the bible to be the word of God because the bible has tons of errors.
Not really. These "errors" are the result of the english language being so different from the Hebrew language and the analogies that seem foreign to the english language often used in the Tanakh.
Reply

Zulkiflim
01-31-2007, 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
Not really. These "errors" are the result of the english language being so different from the Hebrew language and the analogies that seem foreign to the english language often used in the Tanakh.
Salaam,

Ah that old argument.

But i would say that even some Judaic here would quote passages from the tanakh to suit their views.

Passages that was for another in another time can be used suddenly as a prophecy for another.

Take a look at what rav posted on a prophecyof salvation for jews east and west.

An interpretation of the word into one context when those words can mean many more things.
Reply

lavikor201
01-31-2007, 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Ah that old argument.

But i would say that even some Judaic here would quote passages from the tanakh to suit their views.

Passages that was for another in another time can be used suddenly as a prophecy for another.

Take a look at what rav posted on a prophecyof salvation for jews east and west.

An interpretation of the word into one context when those words can mean many more things.
Your argument makes no sense, and you seem to critisize his use of the verse, but it clearly does refer to a state where jews outisde come back to it after an exile.

How about you put the verse that Rav gave us in context. Please do so.

It is not an old argument, it is a correct argument. The errors you point out are nothing more then propaganda websites you cut and paste but do not even understand.
Reply

Umar001
01-31-2007, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by rav
Not to difficult of a concept. Judaism teaches that other monotheistic religions that follow the seven laws are valid forms of worshiping G-d for non-Jews.
But what about those who believe God is man, thus I take it that is not monotheism in some's view yet still claim such things, then those are wrong right?
Reply

lavikor201
01-31-2007, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
But what about those who believe God is man, thus I take it that is not monotheism in some's view yet still claim such things, then those are wrong right?
That concept has no support in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), and there is an argument between Rabbi's on if it is idolatry or not.
Reply

Malaikah
01-31-2007, 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
Are you sure of your salvation, and if so on what authority are you guaranteed to be saved?
What do you mean? Is that a general question, or one directed specifically to mansaf?

If it was a general question, in Islam a person is only saved by the Mercy of Allah and by their good deeds with a done for the sake of Allah alone (obviously, the good deeds must be done by a Muslim).
Reply

Zulkiflim
01-31-2007, 06:16 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
Your argument makes no sense, and you seem to critisize his use of the verse, but it clearly does refer to a state where jews outisde come back to it after an exile.

How about you put the verse that Rav gave us in context. Please do so.

It is not an old argument, it is a correct argument. The errors you point out are nothing more then propaganda websites you cut and paste but do not even understand.
Salaam,

Ah alhamdulilah one who is eager to explain..

But firstly,the old argument..

the verse..[PIE]Zechariah 8:7:

8:7. So said the L-rd of Hosts: Behold I will save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west.[/PIE]

Perhaps rav is able to give us a link to the site so that we can then use the chapter as an accepted for a Judaic.

Casue i do not want to explain myself then turn around and face an argument that "i posted verses from bibles sites that are incorrect in their interpretation of the tanakh"

So hopefully you cna oblige me,rav or whomever any Judaist can also lah..LOL


thanks..

Ps the words are very clear,for those who wishes it to mean what they want it too..
Reply

lavikor201
01-31-2007, 09:12 PM
This is best I have seen so far:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=63255

The translations are fairly accurate regarding the culturaul differences of the languages.
Reply

dougmusr
02-01-2007, 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
What do you mean? Is that a general question, or one directed specifically to mansaf?

If it was a general question, in Islam a person is only saved by the Mercy of Allah and by their good deeds with a done for the sake of Allah alone (obviously, the good deeds must be done by a Muslim).
It was directed at mansaf in response to his statement, "I am not challenging you and I am not interested in your findings. Allah almighty is challenging you so that you are sure about your salvation." I'm under the impression, and your post would seem to agree, that Muslims feel only Allah knows who will enter paradise, and that prior to judgement, a Muslim can only do good and hope. If this is the case, how could he expect me to be sure about my salvation if he can not be sure about his own.
Reply

mansaf
02-01-2007, 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
It was directed at mansaf in response to his statement, "I am not challenging you and I am not interested in your findings. Allah almighty is challenging you so that you are sure about your salvation." I'm under the impression, and your post would seem to agree, that Muslims feel only Allah knows who will enter paradise, and that prior to judgement, a Muslim can only do good and hope. If this is the case, how could he expect me to be sure about my salvation if he can not be sure about his own.
I am sure about my salvation. I have witnessed Allah's miracle in the Quran. The challenge has stood for the last 1400 years. Nonbelievers always criticize the challenge but never dare to accept it.
Reply

IzakHalevas
02-01-2007, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by mansaf
I am sure about my salvation. I have witnessed Allah's miracle in the Quran. The challenge has stood for the last 1400 years. Nonbelievers always criticize the challenge but never dare to accept it.
Accept the challenge? The challenge makes no sense in practical terms and is utterly worthless. The challenge will never be completed because no one cares to do so. We really could care less.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-01-2007, 10:09 PM
Maybe not you, but people try too and have done in the past. Why is it worthless? Its worthless when someone doesn't want too take it. And like u said u could care less, thats why it seems worthless to you.


Hmmm...it almost sounds confusing :confused:
Reply

islamway
02-01-2007, 10:29 PM
Before i say some thing about bible i would like to remind you some verses of bible
Introduction: We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it (i.e., the bible) into a LIE. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!
See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.
The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.
Authorship of bible:-"Although there is no direct internal evidence of authorship, it was the unanimous testimony of the early church that this Gospel was written by John Mark. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1488)"
So, in reality, we don't really know whether Mark was the sole author of this Gospel or not. And since The New Testament wasn't even documented on paper until 150-300 years (depending on what Christian you talk to) after Jesus, then how are we to know for sure that the current "Gospel of Mark" wasn't written by some pro of Mark?
: "The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20."
Now my concern to this corruption and 'answer-the-problem-away' statement is that what are those so-called "reliable early manuscript(s)" and who are the "ancient witnesses"?
According to the early Christians' manuscripts, Jesus never got crucified, and trinity is a lie. The so-called "gospel of Mark", along with all of the "gospels" of the NT, were written by third-party narration, as clearly demonstrated and . People wrote on the tongue of Jesus' Disciples those books. They are neither original nor are the Pure Word of GOD Almighty.
If the "gospel of Mark" was indeed Divine and from GOD Almighty, then we wouldn't have this corruption, that they're admitting above, in it.

I hope you see the real danger in making these assumptions when you are willing to DIE for the fact that such Gospel is the actual True Word of GOD Almighty!
Further regarding this Gospel, we read the following commentary about Mark 16:9-20:
"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

This quote raises a very serious issue here. First of all, as we've seen above in the first quote, we have no evidence that proves that John Mark was the sole author of this so called "Gospel". Second of all, we see that this Gospel has some serious problems/suspicions in it. The issue of Mark 16:9-20 is a scary one, because many Christian cults today use poisonous snakes in their worship and end up dying.
Removing Mark 16:9-20 is quite appreciated by me personally (to be quite honest with you), because it prevents people from dying from snake bites. But however, the serious issue of man's corruption of the Bible remains.
We can be absolutely certain now that the above quotes prove without a doubt that the Bible is doubtful. The quote "or its original ending has been lost" proves that what we call today "Gospels" were not written by their original authors such as Mark, John, Matthew, etc... It proves that the Gospel had been tampered with by man. Let alone considering it as the True Living Words of GOD Almighty.
If John Mark wasn't the one who wrote Mark 16:9-20, then who did? And how can you prove the ownership of the other person? Let alone proving that it was GOD Almighty's Revelation. And as we saw in the first quote above, we don't even know that John Mark was indeed the one who wrote the so called "Gospel of Mark".
To say the least in our case here, we now have enough evidence to discard the entire Gospel of Mark from the Bible, because you can't take bits and pieces of it and say some of it belongs to him and some of it doesn't! Let alone considering the entire corrupted Gospel as the True Living Word of GOD Almighty, which is a complete blasphemy.
Reply

Abu Zakariya
02-01-2007, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Accept the challenge? The challenge makes no sense in practical terms and is utterly worthless. The challenge will never be completed because no one cares to do so. We really could care less.
First of all, you've stated that you don't even know Arabic properly so the challenge isn't even really directed to you (there are others, however).

Second of all, you seem pretty confident (if not arrogant) considering that you speak in the name of all non-Muslims. Especially since it isn't true. There are people that have tried to take on the challenge. And since one of the things the Arabs were most pride of was their poetry and eloquence, the challenge is practical. They knew that they couldn't come up with something like the Qur'an, so they chose to fight against the Muslims instead. I hope that you can desist from spreading misinformation, at least from now on.
Reply

IzakHalevas
02-01-2007, 10:51 PM
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
This verse has nothing to do with corruption of the Law.

The verse says:
How do you say, "We are wise, and the Law of the L-rd is with us"? Verily, behold it is in vain, he made a false scribes' pen. Wise men were ashamed, they were broken and caught; behold they rejected the word of the L-rd, now what wisdom have they?
(Jeremiah 8:8-9)
One who looks at the immediate content of these verses see that G-d poses a question about why the false scribes claim to be wise. Then in verse 9 it answers that question by saying "behold they rejected the word of the L-rd, now what wisdom have they?" There is no mention of a "corrupted" Tanakh. If the Tanakh was corrupted in verse 8, why is G-d calling it his word in verse 9? This is what you fail to address.

This should be read:
"Say to them, 'This is what the L-RD says: If you do not listen to me and follow MY LAW, which I have set before you, and if you do not listen to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I have sent to you again and again (though you have not listened) then I will make this house like Shiloh and this city an object of cursing among all the nations of the earth.'"
(Jeremiah 26:4-6)
How could Israel follow the law (Torah), if it had been corrupted? This presupposes that the Torah was uncorrupt and available during the time of Jeremiah. Furthermore, since Jeremiah wrote Jeremiah 8:8 he would know best the meaning of the passage in question. Clearly, we see Jeremiah appealing to the availability of the Law in Jeremiah 26:4-6 implying that the scribes did not corrupt the Torah, but simply did not follow it. Example: Is it hypocrisy to write a Torah the word of G-d and then not follow it? Of course!

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!
No we do not. All we see is your deceitful attempt to try and take the Tanakh out of context.

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.
The Muslim writer claims that "The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Torah) will get corrupted." The biblical reference that is given is Deuteronomy 31:25-29. However, the biblical reference does not give the slightest hint to support the Muslim's claim. Moses wrote, "Take this Book of the Law and place it besides the ark of the covenant of the L-RD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you." Moses predicted that the Book of the Law would remain and be a witness against the people of Israel. So, the reference proves the exact opposite of what the Muslim claims. The reference proves that the scripture would remain and be a reliable witness against the people of Israel! If the Book of the Law were not to remain or were to become totally corrupted, it could not be an abiding witness against the nation of Israel.
"he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the L-RD: "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the L-RD your G-d. There it will remain as a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the L-RD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them. For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the L-RD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."
(Deuteronomy 31:25-29) (NIV)
Secondly, Moses stated, "For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you." Notice, Moses does not claim that Book of Moses will become utterly corrupted. Moses wrote that the people of Israel would become corrupted, not the scriptures. So again, the scriptural references given by the Muslim author contradicts directly his assertion. He claims that the scriptures would be corrupted, but his reference states that the people would become corrupted.

The people of Israel carefully safe-guarded the commandments of the L-RD. And, after the temple of Sulaiman (Solomon) was built, Moses' two stone tablets were still in existence. They were in the ark of the covenant that was the innermost court of the temple called, the Holy of Holies. So, to have the original stone tablets of the Law in the temple, the people of Israel had to have guarded the original stone text for hundreds of years.
There was nothing in the ark except the two stone tablets that Moses had placed in it at Horeb, where the L-RD made a covenant with the Israelites after they came out of Egypt.
(1 King 8:9) (NIV)
The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.
No it did not. Your claims have been refuted.

As for the arguments, against the "new testament" or "gospel" they were never true in my belief, so who cares who wrote them!
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IzakHalevas
02-01-2007, 10:53 PM
Second of all, you seem pretty confident (if not arrogant) considering that you speak in the name of all non-Muslims.
The Quran is false to non-Muslims so therefore, why should a non-Muslim care what it says? Who on earth would waste their time.
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Abu Zakariya
02-01-2007, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
The Quran is false to non-Muslims so therefore, why should a non-Muslim care what it says? Who on earth would waste their time.
Are you really that naive? Of course there are people that try to disprove the Qur'an. From the Pagans at the time of the Prophet (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) who even tortured the Muslims, to the missionaries of today. There has always been people that try to turn Muslims away from their religion. I have myself seen people that have tried to take on this challenge.

By the way, the challenge didn't come out of nowhere. It was directed at the Arab Pagans who tried to disprove the Qur'an on a regular basis (and it still stands today).
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Skillganon
02-01-2007, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
The Quran is false to non-Muslims so therefore, why should a non-Muslim care what it says? Who on earth would waste their time.
We heard that before. The Jew's who reject the prophets and the ones that came with revelation are false to God of Abraham.
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IzakHalevas
02-01-2007, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
We heard that before. The Jew's who reject the prophets and the ones that came with revelation are false to God of Abraham.
What are you even saying? I do not understand your point.

Are you really that naive? Of course there are people that try to disprove the Qur'an. From the Pagans at the time of the Prophet (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) who even tortured the Muslims, to the missionaries of today. There has always been people that try to turn Muslims away from their religion. I have myself seen people that have tried to take on this challenge.
Naive? Why wate my time disporving a false scripture when I can be studying the word of G-d, the Torah. The challenge basically says that no other book will ever gain as many followers etc. Well who cares? Since Jews do not even believe christianity or islam to be valid, why would it matter how mnay followers there are? Why would it matter how masterful the text is written? The amount of followers a book has is completly irrelevant. The evidence of this is the gospel which has never been the word of G-d, ever, which has 2 billion people believing it is.
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Abu Zakariya
02-01-2007, 11:43 PM
Naive? Why wate my time disporving a false scripture when I can be studying the word of G-d, the Torah. The challenge basically says that no other book will ever gain as many followers etc. Well who cares? Since Jews do not even believe christianity or islam to be valid, why would it matter how mnay followers there are? Why would it matter how masterful the text is written? The amount of followers a book has is completly irrelevant. The evidence of this is the gospel which has never been the word of G-d, ever, which has 2 billion people believing it is.
I've never heard of such a challenge. Actually, the Qur'an even says that most of humankind doesn't believe. So I really don't know where you got that from.
By the way, even if you personally would rather study Torah than talk about the Qur'an (even though you are doing it right now) that doesn't mean that everyone else agrees with you and I don't think you should be acting as if they are (which you did in your first post).
Reply

Zulkiflim
02-02-2007, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
This is best I have seen so far:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=63255

The translations are fairly accurate regarding the culturaul differences of the languages.

Salaam,

Thank for the link already bookmarked,but now may i ask you to post a direct link to the vrse and for you to read the contents of that chapter pre and post and then verify it is AUTHENTIC.

Again,i had the smae problem as before,so THANKS.if you do it..ya..
Reply

arabiyyah
02-02-2007, 02:03 AM
why not just refute it, he gave ya the link.
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Malaikah
02-02-2007, 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Accept the challenge? The challenge makes no sense in practical terms and is utterly worthless. The challenge will never be completed because no one cares to do so. We really could care less.
Well that's a rather arrogant thing to say isn't... funny, all those Arab poets who tried to produce the like of the Quran and failed during the Prophets time... did they also not complete the challenge because they didn't care?

So if they didn't care, why did they spend hours upon hours in isolation trying to meet the challenge, only to give up? hmmm...:rolleyes:
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Umar001
02-02-2007, 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
That concept has no support in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), and there is an argument between Rabbi's on if it is idolatry or not.
Thank you for supporting my position.
Reply

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