PDA

View Full Version : Advice and Invitation for the Popes to (Accept) Islaam



FollowingAlhuda
01-29-2007, 05:53 PM
Advice and Invitation for the Popes to (Accept) Islaam
By Ash-Shaikh Rabee’ bin Haadee Al-Madkhalee (May Allaah preserve him)
Translated by Aqeel Walker



In the Name of Allaah, The Most Merciful, The Giver of Mercy

All praise is due to Allaah, and may prayers of blessing and peace be upon the Messenger of Allaah, and upon his family, his companions, and whoever follows his guidance. Thus to proceed:

Indeed it has been broadcasted, and circulated in the media from the broadcasts, newspapers, and internet sites, that the Pope of the Vatican, Benedict the 16th, has verbally attacked Islaam and the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (‘alayhis-salaatu was-salaam). He has described Muhammad (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam), and his message as being evil and harsh thinking! And this is a matter that is amazing, startling, and contradictory to logic, intelligence, and the reality of the pure Islaam. That is the Islaam that Allaah used to bring humanity out of the darkness and into the light, and out of the injustice of the religions and into the justice of Islaam, which is even testified to by the intelligent people of its enemies. I will not prolong in praising Islaam and the Messenger of Islaam, for indeed the world has been filled with such praise, and the libraries are overflowing with it. Therefore, I will summarize by saying:

Verily Muhammad is the really and truly the Messenger of Allaah. Allaah sent him as a mercy to all the creation. He sent him as a bearer of glad tidings, as a warner, and as a caller to Allaah, and as an illuminating source of light.

He came with the matter of respecting the Prophets and their Books. Rather, he came with the matter of loving them, believing in them, and believing in their Books. Allaah, the Most High said: “The Messenger (Muhammad) has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers. All of them believe in Allaah, and His Angels, and His Books (Scriptures), and His Messengers. We do not separate between anyone from His Messengers.” [Al-Baqarah:285]
And Allaah, the Most High said, commanding Muhammad (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) and his nation of followers: “Say: We believe in Allaah, and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibraaheem, and Ismaa’eel, and Ishaaq, and Ya’qoob, and the tribes, and what was given to Moosaa, and ‘Eesaa, and what was given to the Prophets from their Lord. We do not separate between anyone from them, and we submit to Him (Allaah) as Muslims.” [Al-Baqarah:136]
And Allaah, the Most High, said, “Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allaah, and what was revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibraaheem (Abraham), and Ismaa’eel (Ishmail), and Ishaaq (Isac), and Ya’qoob (Jacob), and the tribes, and what was given to Moosaa (Moses), and ‘Eesaa (Jesus), and the Prophets from their Lord. We do not separate between anyone from them, and we submit to Him (Allaah) as Muslims.” [Aal ‘Imraan:84]

Muhammad (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) came with justice, and kindness, and he prohibited lewdness, evil, and transgression. “Verily Allaah commands justice, and kindness, and giving (charity) to the relatives, and he forbids lewdness, evil, and transgression. He admonishes you all so that perhaps you will remember.” [An-Nahl:90]

He (Muhammad) came with Jihaad (struggling for the cause of Allaah) in order to raise the Word of Allaah, and to defeat the disbelief (Kufr), associating partners with Allaah (Shirk), and corruption (Fasaad). And indeed Moosaa (Moses) (‘alayhis-salaatu was-salaam) preceded him in that, and the Prophets of the Children of Israa’eel did so as well after Moosaa.

And he (Muhammad) came with the legislation of legal retaliation, and capitol punishments in order to preserve the religion, the souls (i.e. lives), the honors, and the wealth and possessions. And indeed Moosaa (Moses) preceded him in that, and the Prophets of the Children of Israa’eel did so as well after Moosaa. That is good, righteousness, and a protection for the honors of the people and their wealth, etc. It is also for the spreading of safety, security, and brining about the benefits, as well as repelling the harmful things. And no one describes Muhammad and his Message with evil, except a lying disbeliever who also reviles Moosaa and his Message, and who reviles the Prophets after Moosaa as well, who all judged and ruled according to the Torah.

Allaah, the Most High, said, “Verily, We did send down the Taurât (Torah) [to Moosaa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allâh's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurât (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allâh's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kaafiroon (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh's Laws). And We ordained therein for them: "A life for life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allâh has revealed, such are the Thaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers - of a lesser degree).” [Al-Maa’idah:44-45]

And The Most High said, “Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allâh has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Faasiqoon (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allâh.” [Al-Maa’idah:47]

And indeed the Jews and Christians disbelieved in the Torah and the Gospel, so they do not act according to what these two Books contain of beliefs and laws. And they rejected Muhammad (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam), the one who came verifying the truthfulness of the Prophets and their Books, from among them being the Torah and Gospel (Injeel).

They disbelieved in Muhammad and what his Message contained of belief in all of the Prophets, and belief in what was in the Torah and the Gospel, and what they contained of beliefs and laws, except what Islaam abrogated.

They (the Jews and Christians) waged war against him (Muhammad) in the most severe way, especially their rabbis, monks, priests and popes, due to their arrogance, pride, jealousy, and transgression after they had changed their Books, and played around with the texts of the Books, and distorted what was in those Books of beliefs, monotheism (Tawheed), and faith (Eemaan), changing it to polytheism (Shirk), disbelief, and rejecting what was in them of laws!!

So if this was their position regarding their Books which they claim to have faith in, then how would it be difficult for them to disbelieve Muhammad, and what he came with of the Qur’aan, which no falsehood comes to it from before it nor after it?!

O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), repent to Allaah with sincere repentance, and follow Muhammad, whom your Scriptures have given you the good news of his coming, as did ‘Eesaa (Jesus – ‘alayhis-salaatu was-salaam) where he said, “And (remember) when 'Eesaa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: “O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allâh unto you confirming the Taurât [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he (Ahmad, i.e. Muhammad) came to them with clear proofs, they said: “This is plain magic.” [As-Saff:6]
“Say (O Muhammad): O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."” [Aal ‘Imraan:64]
“O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"” [Aal ‘Imraan:71]
“Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you prevent those who have believed, from the Path of Allâh, seeking to make it seem crooked, while you (yourselves) are witnesses [to Muhammad as a Messenger of Allâh and Islâm (Allâh's Religion, i.e. to worship none but Him Alone)]? And Allâh is not unaware of what you do."” [Aal ‘Imraan:99]

O you who is called Pope of the Vatican, accept Islaam, and you will be safe. Allaah will reward you twice. But if you refuse, then the sin of your followers from the European Christians, and other Christians who are non-Europeans, will be upon you. Accept Islaam and the people of your religion will be safe, and Allaah will enter you all into a Paradise whose width is like the heavens and the earth, and it has been prepared for those who are pious (Muttaqoon), the followers of the truthful Messengers. Believe in this Mighty Qur’aan, which is the master or protector over all of the (previous) messages (revelations, scriptures), and it has come with the correct beliefs, and just laws that are supported by proper reasoning and the sound nature.

Believe (O Pope)! You and your followers, in this Qur’aan which contains what I have mentioned to you, and it has attained a level of being miraculous which cannot be achieved by any material or figurative miracle.

Allaah challenges the Jinns and the humans to bring something like it, and they have not been able to produce its like. Rather, they have not been able to produce even ten chapters like it. Rather, they have not been able to produce even a single chapter like it. They have been unable, unable, unable, even if they helped each other in the attempt. In this alone is what would call the Popes and their followers to believe if they had any portion of intelligence, reasoning, comprehension, and fairness in thinking.

Accept Islaam, O you Popes, you will be safe, and you will have as your reward a Paradise whose width is the heavens and the earth. If you do not, then be assured that for you is the severe and eternal punishment of a Fire that Allaah has prepared for the disbelievers. Its heat is severe, and its depth is far (i.e. deep). Allaah, the Most High, says in the Mighty Qur’aan, and His Most Wise Book, “Verily, We have prepared for the disbelievers iron chains, iron collars, and a blazing Fire.” [Insaan:4]
And the Most High said in His Mighty Book, “And leave Me Alone to deal with the deniers (those who deny My Verses, etc.), and those who are in possession of good things of life. And give them respite for a little while. Verily, with Us are fetters (to bind them), and a raging Fire. And a food that chokes, and a painful torment. On the Day when the earth and the mountains will be in a violent shake, and the mountains will be a heap of sand poured out and flowing down. Verily, We have sent to you (O men) a Messenger (Muhammad) to be a witness over you, as We did send a Messenger [Moosaa (Moses)] to Fir'aun (Pharaoh). But Fir'aun (Pharaoh) disobeyed the Messenger [Moosaa (Moses)], so We seized him with a severe punishment.” [Al-Muzzammil:11-16]

O you Popes, do not be deceived by the worldly life, and do not let the Deceiver (Satan) deceive you about Allaah. And know that verily your predecessors distorted your books, and corrupted your religion, and they made men gods besides Allaah, and they claimed that ‘Eesaa (Jesus) was the son of Allaah, or the third of three (A trinity of divinity with Allaah). Yet Allaah is far exalted above such a thing, in a most tremendous way.

Allaah said in His Book, that is eternal, miraculous and preserved from distortion and change, “Say (O Muhammad): He is Allâh, (the) One. Allâh-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks). He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.” [Al-Ikhlaas:1-4]

And the Most High said in this Magnificent, Miraculous Book, “Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allâh). But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allâh) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) as a slave. Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting. And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection (without any helper, or protector or defender).” [Maryam:89-95]

O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! And O you Popes! Indeed every Messenger came with pure monotheism (At-Tawheed), and they waged war against polytheism (Ash-Shirk). And from among them was ‘Eesaa (Jesus – ‘alayhis-salaatu was-salaam). The Most High said, “Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allâh is the Messiah ['Eesaa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Eesaa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allâh, then Allâh has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Thaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers.” [Al-Maa’idah:72]

Thus, he (Jesus – ‘alayhis-salaatu was-salaam) commanded the worship of Allaah alone, and he made it clear that Allaah was his Lord, and the Lord of those whom he was speaking to, and that he was sent to them as a Messenger, and that whoever associated any partners with Allaah, then indeed Allaah had made the Paradise forbidden for such a person and his final abode would be in the Hell-Fire.

And Allaah, the Most High, said, “Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.” [Al-Maa’idah:73]

So stop what you are doing O you Christians and Popes. Stop that which Allaah has warned you against of deifying ‘Eesaa (Jesus), and anything else besides him from the created things. And if you do not stop, then you all are upon disbelief and polytheism, and the recompense for that is that Allaah will make forbidden for you all the Paradise, and He will make your final abode be the Hell-Fire.

Do not be deceived by that which you found your predecessors upon, and your Popes, and your priests or monks. For verily I swear by Allaah that they are upon falsehood and disbelief. Indeed they distorted the Torah and the Gospel (Injeel) as I have mentioned to you previously.

And do not think that ‘Eesaa (Jesus) will intercede for you or enter you into the Paradise, and save you from the Hell-Fire, because that is something that is not under his control. Because you all have opposed him, and you have opposed his belief, the belief of pure monotheism (At-Tawheed). And you all have taken him as a god, while he himself rejects whoever does that, and he will disavow himself from you and your misguidance, and your taking him and his mother as two gods besides Allaah.

The Most High said, “And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Eesaa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All Knower of all that is hidden and unseen. Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All Mighty, the All Wise.” [Al-Maa’idah:116-116]

So this is ‘Eesaa freeing himself of the beliefs (‘Aqeedah) of the Christians, and their false belief regarding him and his mother, that they are two deities besides Allaah. And he will make it clear before Allaah that he did not command the people except with what His Lord commanded him with. “Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord.” So Allaah is his Lord, and the Lord of all the people. And it is impossible that ‘Eesaa (Jesus) would claim for himself or his mother godship or divinity, or that he would command the people to associate partners with Allaah (i.e. worship anything other than Allaah).

Therefore, if you all reject what this message contains of realities, and you dispute and argue regarding that, then verily I call you all to invoke the curse of Allaah, just as Allaah commanded His truthful and trustworthy Messenger (Muhammad) to do. Allaah said to him (Muhammad – sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam), “Then whoever disputes with you concerning him ['Eesaa (Jesus)] after (all this) knowledge that has come to you, [i.e. 'Eesaa (Jesus)] being a slave of Allâh, and having no share in Divinity) say: (O Muhammad) "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves - then we pray and invoke (sincerely) the Curse of Allâh upon those who lie.” [Aal ‘Imraan:61]

And for myself, and for every Muslim there is a good example in that, with Muhammad (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) (i.e. the Prophet Muhammad did this before us regarding the lies of the Christians.). And may peace be upon whoever follows the right guidance.

Written by Ash-Shaikh Rabee’ bin Haadee ‘Umayr Al-Madkhalee
Sha’baan 24, 1427 Hijri
Source: http://www.rabee.net/show_des.aspx?pid=3&id=198
Translated by Aqeel Walker
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
FollowingAlhuda
01-30-2007, 07:49 PM
A real reading tip!
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-30-2007, 07:52 PM
its really long sis :hiding:
Reply

FollowingAlhuda
01-30-2007, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
its really long sis :hiding:
I know, but i didn't write it :eek:

Just try, you will like it!
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
IbnAbdulHakim
01-30-2007, 08:04 PM
ok now i read quite a bit of it, so did the pope actually read this? :? what happened?
Reply

FollowingAlhuda
01-30-2007, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
ok now i read quite a bit of it, so did the pope actually read this? :? what happened?

I don't know , i just got this on my mail, from a sis!
Reply

Maimunah
01-30-2007, 08:11 PM
mashaAllah sis
ave read it all:D

i love this sheikh

wasalaam
Reply

Eric H
01-30-2007, 08:35 PM
Greetings and peace be with you FollowingAlhuda;

(i.e. the Prophet Muhammad did this before us regarding the lies of the Christians.). And may peace be upon whoever follows the right guidance.
Oh dear, and I am sorry to say this is not convincing.

We are all created by the same God, somehow there has to be more.

In the spirit of growing together in faith,

Eric
Reply

rav
01-30-2007, 09:34 PM
Verily Muhammad is the really and truly the Messenger of Allaah. Allaah sent him as a mercy to all the creation. He sent him as a bearer of glad tidings, as a warner, and as a caller to Allaah, and as an illuminating source of light.
Why should this matter since christians don't believe this.

He came with the matter of respecting the Prophets and their Books. Rather, he came with the matter of loving them, believing in them, and believing in their Books.
Ye you claim these books are corrupted which is a huge insult to the Pope.

And Allaah, the Most High, said, “Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allaah, and what was revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibraaheem (Abraham), and Ismaa’eel (Ishmail), and Ishaaq (Isac), and Ya’qoob (Jacob), and the tribes, and what was given to Moosaa (Moses), and ‘Eesaa (Jesus), and the Prophets from their Lord. We do not separate between anyone from them, and we submit to Him (Allaah) as Muslims.” [Aal ‘Imraan:84]
Yet you claim not to know what was revealed because of "corruption" so you really have no clue what was revealed according to your theory.

Allaah, the Most High, said, “Verily, We did send down the Taurât (Torah) [to Moosaa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allâh's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurât (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allâh's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kaafiroon (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh's Laws). And We ordained therein for them: "A life for life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allâh has revealed, such are the Thaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers - of a lesser degree).” [Al-Maa’idah:44-45]
Okay, so you believe the Torah is corrupted, yet I believe it is not. You have no way to prove me wrong, and I have know way, nor care to prove you wrong.

And indeed the Jews and Christians disbelieved in the Torah
What? How is that so. The Jews continue today to follow the Torah. of course many Jews do not, but can you claim every Muslim follows the Quran?

They disbelieved in Muhammad and what his Message contained of belief in all of the Prophets, and belief in what was in the Torah and the Gospel, and what they contained of beliefs and laws, except what Islaam abrogated.
That is because Muhommod did not qualify as a prophet.

They (the Jews and Christians) waged war against him (Muhammad) in the most severe way, especially their rabbis, monks, priests and popes, due to their arrogance, pride, jealousy, and transgression after they had changed their Books, and played around with the texts of the Books, and distorted what was in those Books of beliefs, monotheism (Tawheed), and faith (Eemaan), changing it to polytheism (Shirk), disbelief, and rejecting what was in them of laws!!
Right, and Muhommod waged war against no one! Laughable!

O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), repent to Allaah with sincere repentance, and follow Muhammad, whom your Scriptures have given you the good news of his coming, as did ‘Eesaa (Jesus – ‘alayhis-salaatu was-salaam) where he said, “And (remember) when 'Eesaa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: “O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allâh unto you confirming the Taurât [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he (Ahmad, i.e. Muhammad) came to them with clear proofs, they said: “This is plain magic.” [As-Saff:6]
Our scriptures have given no news, nor prove Muhommod is anything. The "proofs" shown to me have all been refuted.

“Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you prevent those who have believed, from the Path of Allâh, seeking to make it seem crooked, while you (yourselves) are witnesses [to Muhammad as a Messenger of Allâh and Islâm (Allâh's Religion, i.e. to worship none but Him Alone)]? And Allâh is not unaware of what you do."” [Aal ‘Imraan:99]
What is the exact point of this? We were witnesses to a man creating a religion? Been done before.

Indeed they distorted the Torah and the Gospel (Injeel) as I have mentioned to you previously.
Another proof? The Gospel is not divine, nor is it special. jesus was a false messiah.

So stop what you are doing O you Christians and Popes. Stop that which Allaah has warned you against of deifying ‘Eesaa (Jesus), and anything else besides him from the created things. And if you do not stop, then you all are upon disbelief and polytheism, and the recompense for that is that Allaah will make forbidden for you all the Paradise, and He will make your final abode be the Hell-Fire.
Ah there it is. For a religion to be sucesfull you have to have the scare tactic and eternal hell fire is certainly scary to someone. Judaism doesn't need to scare people, because hell and "eternal hell fire" was created by people who needed to scare others to follow them.

Laws are followed by being scared of hell, not love of G-d. That is a huge fault in a religion.

your taking him and his mother as two gods besides Allaah.
Interesting. How many christians believe mary to be a god?
Reply

Jayda
01-30-2007, 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by rav

which is a huge insult to the Pope.

so is asking the Pope to apostacize himself (a sin) and to make a curse in the name of God (a sin)...

this letter is plagued with ignorance, which is why i did not i did not wish to respond but it will not go away...

perhaps we could all forget about this and discuss other things...

Dios te bendiga
Reply

Jayda
01-30-2007, 09:41 PM
sometimes when you say certain things you make me think i have misjudged and misunderstood judaism more than i thought...

Dios te bendiga
Reply

rav
01-30-2007, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
sometimes when you say certain things you make me think i have misjudged and misunderstood judaism more than i thought...

Dios te bendiga
What have I said that insulted you?

so is asking the Pope to apostacize himself (a sin) and to make a curse in the name of God (a sin)...
When did I say for him to desert his religion? Or make a curse in the name of G-d?
Reply

Jayda
01-30-2007, 09:58 PM
hola rav,

i am sorry i think i did not properly communicate the tone of what i posted... i have always felt judaism, like islam, was a very litigious religion and that jews were motivated more by fear of hell and desire of heaven than love of God but you said:


Originally Posted by rav
"Laws are followed by being scared of hell, not love of G-d. That is a huge fault in a religion."
which made me think maybe i know less about judaism than i thought i knew (which was very little to begin with) as i indicated in my poorly written post...

my first comment about the Pope was adding to your words... and saying that that was not the only thing that the Pope would consider insulting... asking the Pope to commit apostacy, which the article is doing, is a sin and therefore an insult to him, so is asking him to join with muslims in cursing people in the name of God:

Therefore, if you all reject what this message contains of realities, and you dispute and argue regarding that, then verily I call you all to invoke the curse of Allaah, just as Allaah commanded His truthful and trustworthy Messenger (Muhammad) to do. Allaah said to him (Muhammad – sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam), “Then whoever disputes with you concerning him ['Eesaa (Jesus)] after (all this) knowledge that has come to you, [i.e. 'Eesaa (Jesus)] being a slave of Allâh, and having no share in Divinity) say: (O Muhammad) "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves - then we pray and invoke (sincerely) the Curse of Allâh upon those who lie.” [Aal ‘Imraan:61]
which is also a grave blasphemy... and would be considered very insulting if this were not done in complete ignorance...

i said these things to show that i do not believe the writer has any familiarity with Catholicism... which is why i said i think he is ignorant...

sorry!

Dios te bendiga
Reply

rav
01-30-2007, 09:59 PM
Oh alright, I thought you were refering to my post. My bad. Judaism's hell is much different then yours and islams. Very very different. lol.
Reply

Jayda
01-30-2007, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by rav
Oh alright, I thought you were refering to my post. My bad. Judaism's hell is much different then yours and islams. Very very different. lol.

i think what you explained before jewish people believe hell is like something we call purgatory where you go simply to be purged of your sins so that you may go to heaven in a purified state... si?
Reply

rav
01-30-2007, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
i think what you explained before jewish people believe hell is like something we call purgatory where you go simply to be purged of your sins so that you may go to heaven in a purified state... si?
Basically. Here is a good description I love:

For anyone who believes in a just and caring G-d, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished. (see Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith) The question of "why do bad things happen to good people" has a lot to do with how we look at existence. The way we usually perceive things is like this: A "good life" means that I make a comfortable living, I enjoy good health, and then I die peacefully at age 80. That's a good life. Anything else is "bad."

In a limited sense, that's true. But if we have a soul and there is such a thing as eternity, then that changes the picture entirely. Eighty years in the face of eternity is not such a big deal.

From Judaism's perspective, our eternal soul is as real as our thumb. This is the world of doing, and the "world to come" is where we experience the eternal reality of whatever we've become. Do you think after being responsible for the torture and deaths of millions of people, that Hitler could really "end it all" by just swallowing some poison? No. Ultimate justice is found in another dimension.

But the concept goes much deeper. From an eternal view, if the ultimate pleasure we're going after is transcendence - the eternal relationship with the Almighty Himself, then who would be luckier: Someone who lives an easy life with little connection to G-d, or someone who is born handicapped, and despite the challenges, develops a connection with G-d. Who would be
"luckier" in terms of eternal existence? All I'm trying to point out is that the rules of life start to look different from the point of view of eternity, as opposed to just the 70 or 80 years we have on earth.

So what is the afterlife exactly?

When a person dies and goes to heaven, the judgment is not arbitrary and externally imposed. Rather, the soul is shown two videotapes. The first video is called "This is Your Life!" Every decision and every thought, all the good deeds, and the embarrassing things a person did in private is all replayed without any embellishments. It's fully bared for all to see. That's why the next world is called Olam HaEmet - "the World of Truth," because there we clearly recognize our personal strengths and shortcomings, and the true purpose of life. In short, Hell is not the Devil with a pitchfork stoking the fires.

The second video depicts how a person's life "could have been..." if the right choices had been made, if the opportunities were seized, if the potential was actualized. This video - the pain of squandered potential - is much more difficult to bear. But at the same time it purifies the soul as well. The pain creates regret which removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to G-d.

Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example.

So what about "heaven?"

Heaven is where the soul experiences the greatest possible pleasure - the feeling of closeness to G-d. Of course not all souls experience that to the same degree. It's like going to a symphony concert. Some tickets are front-row center; others are back in the bleachers. Where your seat is located is based on the merit of your good deeds - e.g. giving charity, caring for others, prayer.

A second factor in heaven is your understanding of the environment. Just like at the concert, a person can have great seats but no appreciation of what's going on. If a person spends their lifetime elevating the soul and becoming sensitive to spiritual realities (through Torah study), then that will translate into unimaginable pleasure in heaven. On the other hand, if life was all about pizza and football, well, that can get pretty boring for eternity.

The existence of the afterlife is not stated explicitly in the Torah itself, because as human beings we have to focus on our task in this world. Though awareness of an eternal reward can also be an effective motivator.

For further study, see Maimonides' Foundations of the Torah, "The Way of G-d" by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, and the commentary of Nachmanides to Leviticus 18:29.
Reply

czgibson
02-03-2007, 03:48 PM
Greetings,

First, the article in the original post is so long-winded and full of unproven assumptions that there isn't even the remotest chance that it will have any effect on the beliefs of the current Pope. I don't agree with most of what he believes, but he's surely not witless enough to fall for a turgid bit of prose like that and think to himself: "I must re-assess my religion".

Second, the most recent post in the thread takes a similar approach:

Originally Posted by rav
For anyone who believes in a just and caring G-d, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished.
Logical sense? No - this is actually a clear case of wishful thinking.

People: please can we stop claiming that our own subjective beliefs are logically rigorous? No religious belief can be - that's why they're called beliefs.

Peace
Reply

lavikor201
02-04-2007, 02:11 AM
Logical sense? No - this is actually a clear case of wishful thinking.
How does it not make logical sense "for anyone who believes in a just and caring G-d" to believe in an afterlife?

I am pretty sure, it makes complete logical sense for any believer in a caring G-d to believe in an afterlife.
Reply

Malaikah
02-04-2007, 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
People: please can we stop claiming that our own subjective beliefs are logically rigorous? No religious belief can be - that's why they're called beliefs.
In the Quran it says:

And they will say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not have been among the dwellers of the blazing Fire!"

In other words, those who rejected God in this life will regret the fact that they didn't use their intellect when it came to matters of religion... (it also suggests that true intellect is what which lead people towards belief in good etc, and anything that lead people away from that is not true intelligence...)

So I would suggest logic and thinking plays a large role, it isn't all only about belief.
Reply

lavikor201
02-04-2007, 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
In the Quran it says:

And they will say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not have been among the dwellers of the blazing Fire!"
In other words, those who rejected God in this life will regret the fact that they didn't use their intellect when it came to matters of religion... (it also suggests that true intellect is what which lead people towards belief in good etc, and anything that lead people away from that is not true intelligence...)

So I would suggest logic and thinking plays a large role, it isn't all only about belief.
Just curious, how much of the Quran is dedicated to scaring you about "hell fire"? It seems many verses speak about it.
Reply

Malaikah
02-04-2007, 01:36 PM
It is only fair that we should be warned about the punishments our actions will earn us in advance... therefore there are many verses about the hell-fire in the Quran, there are also many verses about paradise.
Reply

Hisbul_Aziz
02-04-2007, 02:12 PM
Okay if you say the religion (Christianity) Then who's Santa claus?
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-20-2013, 10:31 PM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-23-2009, 07:36 PM
  3. Replies: 38
    Last Post: 07-24-2007, 03:58 AM
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-11-2006, 09:04 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-19-2006, 02:58 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!