Police raids target 'terror plot' in UK

[Showkat]

Police raids target 'terror plot'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6315989.stm

Home Secretary John Reid has been kept informed of developments
Eight people have been arrested under the Terrorism Act in Birmingham after a "significant" operation involving police and security service MI5.
A number of houses in the city have been sealed off after morning raids.

Security sources have told the BBC the alleged plot would not have involved mass casualties but marked "a different approach to terrorism in the UK".

The "nationwide operation" involved the Midlands counter terrorism unit, west Midlands Police and the Met Police.

Some of the raids are thought to have been in the Alum Rock area of the city.

BBC News website readers have also reported police activity in the early hours of Wednesday morning on Stratford Road, in the Sparkhill area.

Public co-operation

The eight are suspected of "the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism".

The Home Office said Home Secretary John Reid had been fully briefed.

"This operation is a reminder of the real and serious nature of the terrorist threat we face," a spokeswoman said.

In a statement, West Midlands Police asked for the "continued support and co-operation of the public".

"Our message to people living in the West Midlands is to remain vigilant," the statement added.

The raided houses are now being searched by officers


Comment:

Here we go again, I am sure we have all been here before, press releases, arrests,and creation of widespread hysteria. Lets hope this time they have actual evidence which can used to prove that these people were in fact involved with terrorism, because the Government and anti-terror police are beginning to sound like the boy who cried woolf as the bungle raid after raid and arrest the innocent and ruin peoples lives and reputation.

[Dawud_uk]

assalaamu alaykum,

sky news is reported that the ALLEGED plot involved kidnapping a serving apostate pretend-muslim soldier and killing him.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Keltoi]

assalaamu alaykum,

sky news is reported that the ALLEGED plot involved kidnapping a serving apostate pretend-muslim soldier and killing him.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

"serving apostate pretend-Muslim soldier"....quite a mouthful, what exactly is that?

[Dawud_uk]

"serving apostate pretend-Muslim soldier"....quite a mouthful, what exactly is that?

it would be a soldier, who is someone who claims their faith is islam but has aposticated and left islam due to their actions of being a serving soldier involved in a war against his brothers and sisters in islam.

this is only going on what reports are coming out at the moment, the target could be someone else entirely or it could be another bodge job where they get innocent people or the wrong people entirely which the british police are quire good at doing.

Abu Abdullah

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[Keltoi]

it would be a soldier, who is someone who claims their faith is islam but has aposticated and left islam due to their actions of being a serving soldier involved in a war against his brothers and sisters in islam.

this is only going on what reports are coming out at the moment, the target could be someone else entirely or it could be another bodge job where they get innocent people or the wrong people entirely which the british police are quire good at doing.

Abu Abdullah

I don't know whether the plot was real or not, but theoretically if this was the motive for a terrorist attack, would you support such an action?

[Trumble]

it would be a soldier, who is someone who claims their faith is islam but has aposticated and left islam due to their actions of being a serving soldier involved in a war against his brothers and sisters in islam.

An interesting, if nonsensical, concept. It must follow logically that no muslim could serve in any army, or indeed 'resistance' group, insurgent group, terrorist group or anybody else involved, or ever likely to be involved, in a war against "his brothers and sisters in islam". That includes Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihaad and just about everybody in Iraq, the Sudan, Somalia and Afghanistan.

In fact, it's not nonsensical, it's brilliant. Just think how much more peaceful the world would be!


Back to reality. As usual we don't yet know the facts, but if they are as Sky states we can only be thankful this cowardly barbarity has been prevented.

[Dawud_uk]

I don't whether the plot was real or not, but theoretically if this was the motive for a terrorist attack, would you support such an action?

tricky question...

yes and no.

because they the 'alleged' were british residents most scholars would say they would not be allowed to carry out such acts though a tiny minority of disagree but we can say clearly that most scholars and muslims say it is not permissable to carry out such acts even if the kuffar break their side of the covenant. so therefore no.

but is it permissable for mujahadeen to kill someone who has fought against the muslims? yes.

i.e same as theo van gogh, permissable for the muslims as a whole to kill him? yes according to scholars who have said the one who insults Allah and his messenger like he did.

but permissable for the moroccan immigrant that did it? obviously most scholars gonna say no because he was an immigrant to netherlands so should have stuck to the covenant even if the nation in question breaks the covenant first.

Abu Abdullah

[FBI]

:sl:

We've been here before, the airline plot, Forest Gate, I actually doubt anything will stick. probably just to keep the public on it's toes, this goverment is starting to look like the script for the show '24'.

[Keltoi]

tricky question...

yes and no.

because they the 'alleged' were british residents most scholars would say they would not be allowed to carry out such acts though a tiny minority of disagree but we can say clearly that most scholars and muslims say it is not permissable to carry out such acts even if the kuffar break their side of the covenant. so therefore no.

but is it permissable for mujahadeen to kill someone who has fought against the muslims? yes.

i.e same as theo van gogh, permissable for the muslims as a whole to kill him? yes according to scholars who have said the one who insults Allah and his messenger like he did.

but permissable for the moroccan immigrant that did it? obviously most scholars gonna say no because he was an immigrant to netherlands so should have stuck to the covenant even if the nation in question breaks the covenant first.

Abu Abdullah

All that "Islamophobia" comes out of nowhere huh?....:rolleyes:

At this rate even other Muslims will start having Islamophobia.

[Trumble]

but is it permissable for mujahadeen to kill someone who has fought against the muslims? yes.

Does that include themselves, considering that vast majority of those killed by assorted 'muhajadeen' over the last few years have been muslims? Or wee the dead not 'proper' muslims simply because they are on the wrong side?

If that is true, then surely it is legitimate for muslims on that 'wrong' side to kidnap and execute 'muhajadeen' for precisely the same reasons, believing them to be on the wrong side?

All that "Islamophobia" comes out of nowhere huh?....:rolleyes:

Indeed. It is a problem both muslims and non-muslims must honestly admit they are both partially responsible for. Only that way can it be ended.

[Bittersteel]

this reminds me of the airline plot.how many were convicted on that occassion?

[Keltoi]

this reminds me of the airline plot.how many were convicted on that occassion?

11 people were charged with plotting terrorism.

[Bittersteel]

yes I know 11 or 12 but after that?where are they now?

[Keltoi]

yes I know 11 or 12 but after that?where are they now?

Awaiting trial. The trials begin in February I believe.

[Bittersteel]

and there was a Muslim woman with explosive drinks or whatever.Obviously turned to be cow dung and then a man separated from his family on his way to US.
there were those two brothers who were shot and found innocent.Unless found guilty by hard evidence or implicit proof I am not believing in this.

[Keltoi]

and there was a Muslim women with explosive drinks or whatever.Obviously turned to be cow dung and then a man separated from his family on his way to US.

Those people weren't charged I presume? What is your point? With a large terrorist plot like that some mistakes will be made. I'm sure the authorities thought it better to side with caution and make every effort to ensure this plot was foiled.

[Bittersteel]

I hope there are no mistakes.On the other hand if these allegations turn out to be true I have nothing more to say.

[soulsociety]

I'd say more like Prison Break.

Lord Levy scandal? Cash for honours?

[Umar001]

Those people weren't charged I presume? What is your point? With a large terrorist plot like that some mistakes will be made. I'm sure the authorities thought it better to side with caution and make every effort to ensure this plot was foiled.

Yep, scary mistakes.

[Re.TiReD]

:sl: Maktabah was raided and a brother from there arrested...why???? not as if he wrote or produced everything he sells...it's pathetic if you ask me...!

[Keltoi]

According to news I've heard, the plot involved kidnapping an active duty British soldier and torturing and beheading him on videotape for release on the internet. Disgusting plot indeed. With all the details coming out about this, I would say the evidence is probably there. We'll see what happens.

[FBI]

:sl:

We all know what happend to the 'Boy who cried wolf'.

[Keltoi]

:sl:

We all know what happend to the 'Boy who cried wolf'.

We also know what happened when they didn't listen....

[Malaikah]

According to news I've heard, the plot involved kidnapping an active duty British soldier and torturing and beheading him on videotape for release on the internet. Disgusting plot indeed. With all the details coming out about this, I would say the evidence is probably there. We'll see what happens.

Disgusting, yes. But I wonder, if the people involved weren't Muslims, would this ever have made international news, or even been labelled as a terrorist plot?

Typically it would have just been called murder or something...

That is assuming it is true anyway.

[Cognescenti]

Disgusting, yes. But I wonder, if the people involved weren't Muslims, would this ever have made international news, or even been labelled as a terrorist plot?

Typically it would have just been called murder or something...

That is assuming it is true anyway.

You do have a point there Malaikah. Where I come from kidnap/beheadings are way, way up this year. Heck, a car chase gets live helicopter feeds and breathless commentary from newscasters, but really, when was the last time you heard a news agency cover a Mormon kidnap/beheading story? Its media bias, pure and simple.

[Malaikah]

Are you being sarcastic? ^o)

I'm not British- I live half way across the world and yet the news here is talking about a beheading attempt all the way over in the UK, calling it a terrorist attack, whereas we have horrible murders happening in our own backyard, in fact an elderly man was behead in his own house a few weeks ago, and yet they never get labelled as terrorist attacks, and I doubt that they make international headlines either.

[Cognescenti]

....snip....

i.e same as theo van gogh, permissable for the muslims as a whole to kill him? yes according to scholars who have said the one who insults Allah and his messenger like he did.

but permissable for the moroccan immigrant that did it? obviously most scholars gonna say no because he was an immigrant to netherlands so should have stuck to the covenant even if the nation in question breaks the covenant first.

Abu Abdullah

Dawud;

Am I missing something? Was Theo Van Gough Muslim? Are you talking about a retrospective "religious ruling" on Van Gough's murder or are you talking about some fatwa issued beforehand?

I can at least understand a scintilla of justification if he had converted to Islam as an adult and then went against the faith, but someone is going to have to explain to me how one could possibly justify his murder for insulting a faith he did not ascribe to.

I am genuinely interested in your answer. No kidding.

[Bittersteel]

I am confused.who was to be murdered?a cultural non-practicing Muslim or a recent convert and apostate.

[Dawud_uk]

Dawud;

Am I missing something? Was Theo Van Gough Muslim? Are you talking about a retrospective "religious ruling" on Van Gough's murder or are you talking about some fatwa issued beforehand?

I can at least understand a scintilla of justification if he had converted to Islam as an adult and then went against the faith, but someone is going to have to explain to me how one could possibly justify his murder for insulting a faith he did not ascribe to.

I am genuinely interested in your answer. No kidding.

no he wasnt a muslim.

someone may disagree with islam, but in the time of the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) people disagreed with God's messenger (pbuh) all the time but when they are very insulting then yes it is permissable according to the scholars of islam to kill that person as the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) send mujahadeen to kill certain individuals at that time for insulting him and lying against him.

Abu Abdullah

[Malaikah]

the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) send mujahadeen to kill certain individuals at that time for insulting him and lying against him.

:sl:

Can you be more specific please? The case I remember, he wasn't only insulting him, he was being extremely insulting in a very public way and was trying to start a war between the kuffar and the Muslim, right?:?

[Dawud_uk]

:sl:

Can you be more specific please? The case I remember, he wasn't only insulting him, he was being extremely insulting in a very public way and was trying to start a war between the kuffar and the Muslim, right?:?

assalaamu alaykum sister,

i do not believe the ruling is that specific, please check with the scholars but from what i have read if someone is being very insulting such as theo van gogh then it is allowable for an amir to send a mujahid to kill him and i have never read about the issue of trying to start a war, that may be one scholars particular understanding that you have read.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[IbnAbdulHakim]

when people enter islam they enter understanding what is required of them and they should enter knowing the view of islam if they ever leave. The rule in islam is to first be gentle and try to revert an apostate back to islam, thats the mercy, then its to kill them if they still refuse, thats the punishment.

Also what must go through a muslims head for him to help the government at a time like this when it seems as though the whole world is against muslims!

[Dawud_uk]

here is a letter i am sending into the papers today, insha'allah for inclusion in their letters from readers section which is a good way for us to get our message across.

Dear Editor,

Regarding the so called ‘Muslim soldier’ the alleged Birmingham terror suspects were said to be plotting to kidnap and kill – if it is true he has served in the British Army in Afghanistan then he has committed an act of apostasy and as such I hope he repents to God sincerely because his actions in fighting against his brothers are the actions of a disbeliever.

But as Muslims living in Britain most Islamic Scholars will tell us we have to live by the laws of the land and cannot take matters into our own hands. So we should encourage this man’s wife and children to leave him as his marriage would be a sham and no longer be valid in Islam, others should boycott him other than to warn him he has committed clear acts of apostasy in siding with the disbelievers and fighting against Islam.

Whether this plot turns out to be true or not I hope that a little good may come out of this if it forces other Muslims who were thinking of joining the army to think again and value their faith over and above love for this country and to value the pleasure of God over a pay cheque in the army.

Daw’ud *********,
Sheffield, UK

[Keltoi]

when people enter islam they enter understanding what is required of them and they should enter knowing the view of islam if they ever leave. The rule in islam is to first be gentle and try to revert an apostate back to islam, thats the mercy, then its to kill them if they still refuse, thats the punishment.

Also what must go through a muslims head for him to help the government at a time like this when it seems as though the whole world is against muslims!

I find that to be disturbing.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I find that to be disturbing.

i guess it would be better to understand in the national way. imagine a person who dedicated himself to his country, then he goes against his country and helps to kill the women and children of the country he once swore to defend.

What do you think this man deserves?

[Keltoi]

i guess it would be better to understand in the national way. imagine a person who dedicated himself to his country, then he goes against his country and helps to kill the women and children of the country he once swore to defend.

What do you think this man deserves?

It isn't a good analogy because he is actually serving his country. Islam isn't a nation its a religion. I know many Muslims like to equate the whole of Islam as a nation-like entity, but the United Kingdom is not a Muslim nation. If Muslims want to create a nation where they kill each other for not being Muslim enough that is okay for them I guess, but that is hardly some kind of justification for this act. I'm not saying you were justifying the motivation behind this.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

It isn't a good analogy because he is actually serving his country. Islam isn't a nation its a religion. I know many Muslims like to equate the whole of Islam as a nation-like entity, but the United Kingdom is not a Muslim nation. If Muslims want to create a nation where they kill each other for not being Muslim enough that is okay for them I guess, but that is hardly some kind of justification for this act. I'm not saying you were justifying the motivation behind this.

it doesnt matter which country we belong to for muslims, as long as we accept islam as our faith we are suppose to act as one group.

i guess you just wont understand it...

[Keltoi]

it doesnt matter which country we belong to for muslims, as long as we accept islam as our faith we are suppose to act as one group.

i guess you just wont understand it...

No, I don't. If you immigrate to a non-Muslim country you accept the laws of that country. Doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, it is a social contract. Doesn't mean you can't be Muslim, as I suspect the first generation of Muslim immigrants would never have considered such a thing justifiable. In any event, it is against British law to murder people. They're old fashioned that way.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

No, I don't. If you immigrate to a non-Muslim country you accept the laws of that country. Doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, it is a social contract. Doesn't mean you can't be Muslim, as I suspect the first generation of Muslim immigrants would never have considered such a thing justifiable. In any event, it is against British law to murder people. They're old fashioned that way.

the british muslim soldier didnt HAVE to fight in the army did he? he chose to do that. If the law was enforced on him that would be different. He would be forced under oppression and we could forgive that!

[Malaikah]

Keltoi, you totally missed the point that execution must be done by the Islamic state.

Obviously it doesn't apply in Britain!

[Keltoi]

the british muslim soldier didnt HAVE to fight in the army did he? he chose to do that. If the law was enforced on him that would be different. He would be forced under oppression and we could forgive that!

"We" could forgive that? What gives you the right to pass any kind of judgement on anyone? Particulary with what was planned for this individual. This man is a British citizen, and is serving his country. I actually find it disgusting that you are attempting to justify someone's murder using religion. As I said earlier, if Muslims want to make an Islamic theocracy and put these sorts of laws on the book, fine. Go for it. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept the sort of barbaric worldview you seem to be supporting. It isn't my intention to offend you, but I am offended by people who justify murder or beheadings by pointing to God. That God isn't familiar to me.

[Keltoi]

Keltoi, you totally missed the point that execution must be done by the Islamic state.

Obviously it doesn't apply in Britain!

Obviously...

[Dawud_uk]

No, I don't. If you immigrate to a non-Muslim country you accept the laws of that country. Doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, it is a social contract. Doesn't mean you can't be Muslim, as I suspect the first generation of Muslim immigrants would never have considered such a thing justifiable. In any event, it is against British law to murder people. They're old fashioned that way.

even sheikh omar bakri agrees with you on this,

vast, vast majority of scholars would agree that even if the kuffar break their covenant with us we still must stick to our side lest the muslims be seen as treacherous.

but that doesnt mean we cannot condemn the actions of such a man who fights against islam, hence why although his blood is halal for the mujahadeen it is not necessarily right for those accused of plotting this act to do it if they truly did intend this.

Abu Abdullah

[Keltoi]

even sheikh omar bakri agrees with you on this,

vast, vast majority of scholars would agree that even if the kuffar break their covenant with us we still must stick to our side lest the muslims be seen as treacherous.

but that doesnt mean we cannot condemn the actions of such a man who fights against islam, hence why although his blood is halal for the mujahadeen it is not necessarily right for those accused of plotting this act to do it if they truly did intend this.

Abu Abdullah

Condemn to your heart's content. That isn't the problem. Although I doubt this guy believed he was "fighting against Islam".

[Dawud_uk]

Keltoi, you totally missed the point that execution must be done by the Islamic state.

Obviously it doesn't apply in Britain!

exactly,

if amir al mumimeen had sent a mujahid to kill this man it would be different but that is not what is being discussed.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Keltoi]

exactly,

if amir al mumimeen had sent a mujahid to kill this man it would be different but that is not what is being discussed.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Who is amir al mumimeen?

[Dawud_uk]

Condemn to your heart's content. That isn't the problem. Although I doubt this guy believed he was "fighting against Islam".

his belief doesnt matter, his actions speak for themselves.

his wife should be told to leave him, his family and friends should boycott him until he leaves the army and he repents.

Abu Abdullah

[Keltoi]

his belief doesnt matter, his actions speak for themselves.

his wife should be told to leave him, his family and friends should boycott him until he leaves the army and he repents.

Abu Abdullah

What actions are you referring to? Is the fact that he joined the U.K. military in itself enough for "his wife to leave him", or is it the fact that he joined a military that is currently involved in conflict with Arabs and Afghans?

[Dawud_uk]

Who is amir al mumimeen?

refers to the leader of the muslim people world wide. means commander of the faithful.

[Keltoi]

refers to the leader of the muslim people world wide. means commander of the faithful.

So there actually isn't such an individual at this point.

[Snowflake]

when people enter islam they enter understanding what is required of them and they should enter knowing the view of islam if they ever leave. The rule in islam is to first be gentle and try to revert an apostate back to islam, thats the mercy, then its to kill them if they still refuse, thats the punishment.

That's only non-muslims living in Islamic states who refuse to pay Jiziya. Apostates cannot be killed merely for leaving Islam. That didn't happen in the early days of Islam.

I believe, if the plot is real, then these people wanted to make an example of the soldier as a warning to other muslims who may want to serve the kufaars in killing muslim brothers and sisters. But kidnap and torture? That's inhumane.

[Dawud_uk]

So there actually isn't such an individual at this point.

matter of debate amongst the scholars of islam and the mujahadeen.

[Cognescenti]

no he wasnt a muslim.

someone may disagree with islam, but in the time of the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) people disagreed with God's messenger (pbuh) all the time but when they are very insulting then yes it is permissable according to the scholars of islam to kill that person as the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) send mujahadeen to kill certain individuals at that time for insulting him and lying against him.

Abu Abdullah

Understood. Can you see how that would be very, very troubling to a non Muslim?

Or better yet, why would any non Muslim accept such a concept? Aren't they, in essence, ceding a decision about their mortal existence to a person they have never met?

Lastly, please explain, with notions like you expressed, how a non Muslim could possibly form a postive opinion of Islam?

[MTAFFI]

also I see Kuffar again here, please explain is the Kuffar the anti-christ or is it simply someone who isnt Muslim? I do not wish to take this thread off topic just a simple one word answer and I will not continue on about it

[Erundur]

also I see Kuffar again here, please explain is the Kuffar the anti-christ or is it simply someone who isnt Muslim? I do not wish to take this thread off topic just a simple one word answer and I will not continue on about it

:salamext:
Believer= Muslim
Kuffar=Non-Muslims
Munafiqoon-Hypocrite

:sl:

[Cognescenti]

:sl:

Can you be more specific please? The case I remember, he wasn't only insulting him, he was being extremely insulting in a very public way and was trying to start a war between the kuffar and the Muslim, right?:?

If Van Gough were, indeed, trying to start a relgious war, then there are secular laws in the Netherlands to deal with him. I have; however, never heard such a claim before and find it preposterous in the extreme that a Dutch army would march on Mecca.

It seems to me, the real threat was that Van Gough might cause practicing Dutch Muslims to question their faith. That he offended people is a certainty, but it is hard to imagine that he had the international impact in life that he now has in death. I suspect the "scholar" who issued the contract on Van Gough had no understanding of the harm his murder would do to the cause of Islam. What might have worked in the 7th Century will almost certainly not work in the 21st.

So, putting aside the morally bereft justification offered, one has to ask....what has been gained here in a utilitarian sense?

[Cognescenti]

That's only non-muslims living in Islamic states who refuse to pay Jiziya. Apostates cannot be killed merely for leaving Islam. That didn't happen in the early days of Islam.

I believe, if the plot is real, then these people wanted to make an example of the soldier as a warning to other muslims who may want to serve the kufaars in killing muslim brothers and sisters. But kidnap and torture? That's inhumane.

I believe you have it exactly right. That was likely the intended message.

BTW...remind me to get my Jiziya in on time should I be consumed with a crazy idea to move to a Muslim state.:muddlehea

[Dawud_uk]

What actions are you referring to? Is the fact that he joined the U.K. military in itself enough for "his wife to leave him", or is it the fact that he joined a military that is currently involved in conflict with Arabs and Afghans?

hi keltoi,

if someone leaves the fold of islam, his marriage is no longer valid and someone should explain this to his wife so she leaves him.

as for arab and afghan comment, i dont care about their nationality, it is their faith that bothers me. if he fights against the mujahadeen the ruling is clear upon him.

Abu Abdullah

[Cognescenti]

matter of debate amongst the scholars of islam and the mujahadeen.

Isn't it a matter of practical certainty that the Sunni and Shia could never possibly agree on this point? Seems to me someone would have to be right and someone would have to be wrong.

[Dawud_uk]

Understood. Can you see how that would be very, very troubling to a non Muslim?

Or better yet, why would any non Muslim accept such a concept? Aren't they, in essence, ceding a decision about their mortal existence to a person they have never met?

Lastly, please explain, with notions like you expressed, how a non Muslim could possibly form a postive opinion of Islam?

yes,

i found it quite alarming when i was a non muslim but i accepted it.

this is because if someone accepts something as from God as they accept the sources for it then really such a person having submitted themselves totally to God would not find it alarming.

so i would ask the non muslim to look at the central arguments of islam, pure unadultorated monoetheism and its sources, the Quran and Sunnah.

if they accept those matters as true and correct then everything else is fine but as believers we cannot pick and choose what we like and dont like and having Allah be pleased with me because i defend the way of life he has given for mankind is more important than you liking me.

Abu Abdullah

[Dawud_uk]

If Van Gough were, indeed, trying to start a relgious war, then there are secular laws in the Netherlands to deal with him. I have; however, never heard such a claim before and find it preposterous in the extreme that a Dutch army would march on Mecca.

It seems to me, the real threat was that Van Gough might cause practicing Dutch Muslims to question their faith. That he offended people is a certainty, but it is hard to imagine that he had the international impact in life that he now has in death. I suspect the "scholar" who issued the contract on Van Gough had no understanding of the harm his murder would do to the cause of Islam. What might have worked in the 7th Century will almost certainly not work in the 21st.

So, putting aside the morally bereft justification offered, one has to ask....what has been gained here in a utilitarian sense?

the gain is that people are no longer so free to insult Allah and his messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

disagree with us fine, but insults... i would have thought theo van gogh and the danish matter as well as salman rushdie would have taught the west better and i certainly think it has.

Abu Abdullah

[Dawud_uk]

Isn't it a matter of practical certainty that the Sunni and Shia could never possibly agree on this point? Seems to me someone would have to be right and someone would have to be wrong.

yes. the sunni muslims believe the leader should come about through consensus and consultation, the shi'a believe their imams are divinely inspired and flawless...

i know which argument is logical and in accordance with the reason and logic in the Quran and sunnah of islam.

Abu Abdullah

[DaNgErOuS MiNdS]

I just hope that this latest ''plot'' turns out to be untrue, I can't imagine anybody actually thinking to do somehting like this in the UK. In my opinion all this has been exaggerated to make intresting headlines, especially chopping the head off. Doing something like this wouldn't do anything but cause more conflict between Muslims and bring more hate from non-muslims.

[Dawud_uk]

i agree, most likely either untrue or an exageration.

what if they overheard someone saying something like "yeah saw that ken bigley video last night, someone should do that to a soldier"

2nd muslim "a muslim soldier! there is one on my street, really ****ed me off when he joined army"

conversation goes on like that, but nothing serious, they are just talking and but someone over hears and goes police.

Abu Abdullah

[DaNgErOuS MiNdS]

^ you know something like that is the only thing that I can think of that could possibly have happend, anything else is unimaginable (as in actually planning it out etc). We'll wait and see what happens...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^^ Agreed !

[FBI]

:sl:


I wanna know how actually MI5 ect find out about these so-called plots?

[Bittersteel]

BTW...remind me to get my Jiziya in on time should I be consumed with a crazy idea to move to a Muslim state.

this Jizya is now modern day tax for residence,electrcity ,gas,car ,tax for properties,etc.

[MTAFFI]

this Jizya is now modern day tax for residence,electrcity ,gas,car ,tax for properties,etc.

i thought tax was forbidden in Shariah Law

[j4763]

I just hope that this latest ''plot'' turns out to be untrue, I can't imagine anybody actually thinking to do somehting like this in the UK.

Why? Some fools bomb the tube not long ago.

In my opinion all this has been exaggerated to make intresting headlines, especially chopping the head off.

well at least its more intresting than reading about the big brother rubbish!

Doing something like this wouldn't do anything but cause more conflict between Muslims and bring more hate from non-muslims.

Well that would work fine for both party's, scare muslims into the alleged terrorists hands and make the muslim non-mulism dived even bigger!

[- Qatada -]

i thought tax was forbidden in Shariah Law

The muslims pay zakaah which goes to support the poor, state etc, and the non muslims living in the muslim state pay a small tax called jizya which is also used to support the state, needy etc.

When the non muslims pay this tax, their blood and honor is protected - hence if an enemy enters the muslim land to fight - it is the muslims duty to protect the non muslims aswell as the muslims in that state.



Peace.

[Muezzin]

From terrorist plots to Jizya, via Theo Van Gogh. Only in the World Affairs section...

[Cognescenti]

yes,

i found it quite alarming when i was a non muslim but i accepted it.

this is because if someone accepts something as from God as they accept the sources for it then really such a person having submitted themselves totally to God would not find it alarming.

so i would ask the non muslim to look at the central arguments of islam, pure unadultorated monoetheism and its sources, the Quran and Sunnah.

if they accept those matters as true and correct then everything else is fine but as believers we cannot pick and choose what we like and dont like and having Allah be pleased with me because i defend the way of life he has given for mankind is more important than you liking me.

Abu Abdullah

Right. I understand the theological concept of "submission". In fact, it is not entirely unique to Islam, but is perhaps more central in Islamic thought.

But, the problem here is really a catch-22. If a non Muslim is troubled by what appears to be a somewhat arbitrary system for issuing death edicts from thousands of miles away by a person whom he has never met and whom would likely not accept his protestations in the unlikely event that they were to meet he need only "submit" to the religion which he finds troubling in the first place and everything will be fine???:uuh:

Saying that a believer must not question is one thing (a mistake if you ask me but at least understandible as there was apparentlya voluntary acceptance of the religion)...saying that a non-believer may not question is quite another.

I can understand economic boycott or shunning or even social shame directed towards an odious critic, but murder??? Note that the Catholic Church engaged in Heresy trials 500-600 yrs ago. It didn't stop Calvin or Luther or other reformers and now is a serious embarrassment.

[Cognescenti]

this Jizya is now modern day tax for residence,electrcity ,gas,car ,tax for properties,etc.

Fair enough, but another poster suggested a non-payor of Jizya could be killed for refusal to pay. That seems extreme to me. What happened to just turning his elelctricity off?

[Cognescenti]

the gain is that people are no longer so free to insult Allah and his messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

disagree with us fine, but insults... i would have thought theo van gogh and the danish matter as well as salman rushdie would have taught the west better and i certainly think it has.

Abu Abdullah

Dawud;

But virtually nobody in the West, except perhaps a very small literary crowd, ever heard of Rushdie before the issuance of a fatwa against him. As far as I can tell from interviews, the guy is an insufferable pedant and I don't think I would read one of his books if I were stuck on a desert isle for 30 years. Before 9-11, it was funny, and it was hard to have any sympathy for the guy. Of course, it isn't funny any more, but I don't think the West is learning the lesson you want them to learn. You can't condone such idiocy as the murder of Van Gough and, at the same time complain when MI5 starts looking for a terrorist in every mosque. The Dutch were a bastion of multi-culturism. Not any more. If Islamic hard-liners push the Western Europeans hard enough, you will have a crop of leaders that make Bush look like a peacenik.

A good example was the recent Danish production of a Mozart opera which was cancelled because of Muslim opposition to the depiction of the Prophet. Those cancelling the performance were labled as cowards and back it comes.

It might be good to counsel restraint before you have 600 million people in charge of 3/4 of the world economy mad at you. I don't think anything good will come of it. Better would be a western-style campaign of education. In general, human beings don't purposely offend other human beings if the offended party can communciate what they find offensive without the use of a death threat.

[- Qatada -]

Fair enough, but another poster suggested a non-payor of Jizya could be killed for refusal to pay. That seems extreme to me. What happened to just turning his elelctricity off?

Umar ibn Al-Khattaab, a successor and companion of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) allowed an old jewish man freedom from paying jizya because he was too old and too poor to pay the jizya. He said similar about other old, poor non muslims living in the islamic state. Yet they were still under muslim protection.


Peace.

[Skillganon]

I think we should let the police handle the suspects and giver them a trial.

If they are involved in something bad than hopefully they will be dealt accordingly with fair manner.
If they didn't they will be requited. Hopefully they will be given a fair trial. Innocent before proven Guilty, and let's stop this trial by media.

So let's not condemn or say anything before the trial.

[Malaikah]

If Van Gough were, indeed, trying to start a relgious war, then there are secular laws in the Netherlands to deal with him. I have; however, never heard such a claim before and find it preposterous in the extreme that a Dutch army would march on Mecca.

I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about another person who tried to start a war during the prophets time, some 1400 years ago!

It seems to me, the real threat was that Van Gough might cause practicing Dutch Muslims to question their faith.

He insulted God, His Creator and Sustainer. He insulted the Prophet, the man who went through unimaginable hardships for the sake of mankind. He spread lies about Islam, thereby weakening the Muslims who are already weak in faith, and giving the non-Muslims further reason to dislike Islam and discriminate against Muslim, and be the cause of their entering the hell-fire for eternity. And the list goes on...

It was certainly more than just causing a few Muslim to question their faith.

[Keltoi]

I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about another person who tried to start a war during the prophets time, some 1400 years ago!



He insulted God, His Creator and Sustainer. He insulted the Prophet, the man who went through unimaginable hardships for the sake of mankind. He spread lies about Islam, thereby weakening the Muslims who are already weak in faith, and giving the non-Muslims further reason to dislike Islam and discriminate against Muslim, and be the cause of their entering the hell-fire for eternity. And the list goes on...

It was certainly more than just causing a few Muslim to question their faith.

However, I assume you aren't attempting to justify shooting a man 6 times in the back and then cutting his throat are you?

[Malaikah]

No, I wasn't.

[Cognescenti]

Umar ibn Al-Khattaab, a successor and companion of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) allowed an old jewish man freedom from paying jizya because he was too old and too poor to pay the jizya. He said similar about other old, poor non muslims living in the islamic state. Yet they were still under muslim protection.


Peace.

Fi_Sabilillah;


You do seem like the peacemaker. Good to speak with you. I wonder what would happen to the same poor, old Jewish man were he to be wandering around Medina or Mecca today? :cry:

Speaking of tolerance of other religions in an Islamic state...are you aware that US military chaplains accompanying US Army and Marine troops to Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War, in order to save one Islamic state from their murdering bretheren. were required to remove their symbols indicating their Jewish or Christian faith from the lapels of their uniforms?

We might also want to talk about the Chaldeans under SH or the few Jews foolish enough to stay in Iran. Or we could talk about the Pope's friendly reception in Turkey.

It seems the dictates of the Quran are not universally applied.

[Dawud_uk]

Right. I understand the theological concept of "submission". In fact, it is not entirely unique to Islam, but is perhaps more central in Islamic thought.

But, the problem here is really a catch-22. If a non Muslim is troubled by what appears to be a somewhat arbitrary system for issuing death edicts from thousands of miles away by a person whom he has never met and whom would likely not accept his protestations in the unlikely event that they were to meet he need only "submit" to the religion which he finds troubling in the first place and everything will be fine???:uuh:

Saying that a believer must not question is one thing (a mistake if you ask me but at least understandible as there was apparentlya voluntary acceptance of the religion)...saying that a non-believer may not question is quite another.

I can understand economic boycott or shunning or even social shame directed towards an odious critic, but murder??? Note that the Catholic Church engaged in Heresy trials 500-600 yrs ago. It didn't stop Calvin or Luther or other reformers and now is a serious embarrassment.

questioning is fine, questioning is good as it shows enthusiasm to learn what we dont like is jumped up fat failures of humanity continually making remarks like referring to all Muslims as XXXXXXXX in national dutch daily newspapers and making fun of Allah and his messenger saws. we get a bit touchy about that sort of stuff.

even for muslims islam allows a lot of leeway before takfir, a declaration of someone being non muslim is made by the scholars. this is very rare.

Abu Abdullah

[Dawud_uk]

Dawud;

But virtually nobody in the West, except perhaps a very small literary crowd, ever heard of Rushdie before the issuance of a fatwa against him. As far as I can tell from interviews, the guy is an insufferable pedant and I don't think I would read one of his books if I were stuck on a desert isle for 30 years. Before 9-11, it was funny, and it was hard to have any sympathy for the guy. Of course, it isn't funny any more, but I don't think the West is learning the lesson you want them to learn. You can't condone such idiocy as the murder of Van Gough and, at the same time complain when MI5 starts looking for a terrorist in every mosque. The Dutch were a bastion of multi-culturism. Not any more. If Islamic hard-liners push the Western Europeans hard enough, you will have a crop of leaders that make Bush look like a peacenik.

A good example was the recent Danish production of a Mozart opera which was cancelled because of Muslim opposition to the depiction of the Prophet. Those cancelling the performance were labled as cowards and back it comes.

It might be good to counsel restraint before you have 600 million people in charge of 3/4 of the world economy mad at you. I don't think anything good will come of it. Better would be a western-style campaign of education. In general, human beings don't purposely offend other human beings if the offended party can communciate what they find offensive without the use of a death threat.

i believe the mozart production was in germany not denmark, and the depiction of the heads of Mohammad, Jesus (peace be upon them both), as well as posiden and budha are late additions to the opera made only in the 1980's i believe and seem more about stiring a sensationalist response than anything else.

Abu Abdullah

[- Qatada -]

It seems the dictates of the Quran are not universally applied.

That's the problem, we don't have no islamic state in the world today. No country in the muslim world runs fully according to the way of the Messenger of Allaah or his companions. That's why we see all the corruption in the muslim world today.

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

[recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]


We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.



Peace. :)

[Cognescenti]

questioning is fine, questioning is good as it shows enthusiasm to learn what we dont like is jumped up fat failures of humanity continually making remarks like referring to all Muslims as XXXXXXXX in national dutch daily newspapers and making fun of Allah and his messenger saws. we get a bit touchy about that sort of stuff.

even for muslims islam allows a lot of leeway before takfir, a declaration of someone being non muslim is made by the scholars. this is very rare.

Abu Abdullah

Right. I can understand the anger, but he was living in a more permissive society. Muslims living in the Netherlands need to be a bit more thick-skinned if they are to live there. Other than perhaps making you feel good in the short term...nothing has been accomplished. Unless he had caused directly or incited others to physically harm Muslims, then I can see no moral jsutification for takfir.

[Cognescenti]

That's the problem, we don't have no islamic state in the world today. No country in the muslim world runs fully according to the way of the Messenger of Allaah or his companions. That's why we see all the corruption in the muslim world today.

Well....fix that, would you? :happy:

[Muezzin]

Yeah, anyway, can we get back to the matter at hand please? Thanks.

[England]

It is not a war against Islam.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


'Key Part Of Armed Forces'
Updated: 15:50, Wednesday January 31, 2007
The intended victim of the alleged kidnap and beheading terror plot in the UK was reportedly a British Muslim soldier.

Jabron Hashmi: 'A Hero'

Muslims account for a small but significant part of Britain's armed forces.

There are 330 altogether, 250 of them in the Army, according to the Ministry of Defence.

With just over 180,000 personnel in the armed forces, it means they make up less than 0.2% of the total.

But they are nonetheless cited as proof the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not specifically against Islam.

Lance Corporal Jabron Hashmi, who died in Afghanistan last July, was the first British Muslim soldier to be killed in the "war on terror".


His family said he had hoped to use his Islamic background to foster greater understanding in the Army.

His uncle, Mohammed Javed, said his nephew was a "hero of Islam, Pakistan, Britain and the international community".

Dozens of Pakistani tribesmen attended a service for L/Cpl Hashmi in the north-western city of Peshawar, where he was born.

The highest-ranking Muslim officer is currently Pakistan-born Royal Navy Rear Admiral Amjad Hussain.

When appointed last August, he said: "The whole fabric of our country relies on us all doing what we're meant to do.

"If you disagree with foreign policy then there is an obvious route to voice your concerns.

"You can demonstrate, write to your MP, write to the media... but it's in the political and media domain where this can be taken forward."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...249703,00.html

[Cognescenti]

Yeah, anyway, can we get back to the matter at hand please? Thanks.

Yes sir. I susect you are referring to me. I am sorry for the short detour conversation with Fi_Sabilillah, who seems like a very sensible chap, and, in fact, seems to be able to teach things to non Muslims in a very non-threatening way. You can understand my confusion as he is a "super-moderator" which implies some type of hierarchy to me.

An any event, as you say, back to the matter at hand.


The prevailing feeling seems to be the whole matter has been cooked up by some racial-profiling cabal at Scotland Yard. That is good enough for me. The very idea that a bunch of hotheads would want to punish a wayward brother is so preposterous as to be dismissed out of hand.

[Dawud_uk]

Right. I can understand the anger, but he was living in a more permissive society. Muslims living in the Netherlands need to be a bit more thick-skinned if they are to live there. Other than perhaps making you feel good in the short term...nothing has been accomplished. Unless he had caused directly or incited others to physically harm Muslims, then I can see no moral jsutification for takfir.

i think you misunderstand,

takfir is something that is only ever done on a muslim, the rest of you are already disbelievers so why need a scholar to declare it?

and i agree it was incorrect for the person who killed him to have done it. but the teachings of islam are clear on the principle here and it is the means that were incorrect.

Abu Abdullah

[Dawud_uk]

It is not a war against Islam.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


'Key Part Of Armed Forces'
Updated: 15:50, Wednesday January 31, 2007
The intended victim of the alleged kidnap and beheading terror plot in the UK was reportedly a British Muslim soldier.

Jabron Hashmi: 'A Hero'

Muslims account for a small but significant part of Britain's armed forces.

There are 330 altogether, 250 of them in the Army, according to the Ministry of Defence.

With just over 180,000 personnel in the armed forces, it means they make up less than 0.2% of the total.

But they are nonetheless cited as proof the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not specifically against Islam.

Lance Corporal Jabron Hashmi, who died in Afghanistan last July, was the first British Muslim soldier to be killed in the "war on terror".


His family said he had hoped to use his Islamic background to foster greater understanding in the Army.

His uncle, Mohammed Javed, said his nephew was a "hero of Islam, Pakistan, Britain and the international community".

Dozens of Pakistani tribesmen attended a service for L/Cpl Hashmi in the north-western city of Peshawar, where he was born.

The highest-ranking Muslim officer is currently Pakistan-born Royal Navy Rear Admiral Amjad Hussain.

When appointed last August, he said: "The whole fabric of our country relies on us all doing what we're meant to do.

"If you disagree with foreign policy then there is an obvious route to voice your concerns.

"You can demonstrate, write to your MP, write to the media... but it's in the political and media domain where this can be taken forward."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...249703,00.html

i think it was really bad when a 'muslim' soldier dies fighting his brothers and sisters in afghanistan and other places because he has aposticated and left his faith in principle also.

hence why it is important that a message needs to go out discouraging as many people as possible from following that example, they are not heroes but apostates.

Abu Abdullah

[Keltoi]

Perhaps this soldier believes people like the Taliban are apostates. His opinion is just as valid as yours.

[MTAFFI]

i think it was really bad when a 'muslim' soldier dies fighting his brothers and sisters in afghanistan and other places because he has aposticated and left his faith in principle also.

hence why it is important that a message needs to go out discouraging as many people as possible from following that example, they are not heroes but apostates.

Abu Abdullah

it is funny you say that, if you were in Iraq who would you fight the Shi'a or the Sunni? Either way it is a Muslim brother or sister, right? So who is the apostate? If you want my opinion, none of them are any good, which might be why this man went to fight, to try and preserve whatever decent perception of Islam there is left, and show that not all Muslims are bad or hate all of the "Kuffar". Personally I have a lot of respect for this man and I am sure that Allah or God or whatever you want to call him does as well

[Dawud_uk]

it is funny you say that, if you were in Iraq who would you fight the Shi'a or the Sunni? Either way it is a Muslim brother or sister, right? So who is the apostate? If you want my opinion, none of them are any good, which might be why this man went to fight, to try and preserve whatever decent perception of Islam there is left, and show that not all Muslims are bad or hate all of the "Kuffar". Personally I have a lot of respect for this man and I am sure that Allah or God or whatever you want to call him does as well

i would fight for the islam, against the kuffar who comes and takes muslim lands, lives and honour

and also against those who aid them, fight for them, those people who love innovations and blind obedience to men whose only qualification is the blood that runs through their veins.

check the Quran, i am not going to debate islamic law and docterine with you because you are coming from a position of not knowing, but if you check the Quran you will see there are verses which condemn this man but here are some of them...

O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed). (Quran 5:57)

O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (Quran 5:51)

there are other simular verses, as well as many sayings of the prophet Muhammad (saws) that show that a person who sides with the disbelievers against the believers is from them and not from the believers.

May Allah swt guide us, strengthen us and remove from our hearts the weaknesses that make us turn to the disbelievers against our brothers and sisters.

Abu Abdullah

[SilentObserver]

i would fight for the islam, against the kuffar who comes and takes muslim lands, lives and honour

It's funny, because there are some in the UK that say they would fight for Britain against the muslim who comes and takes british lands, lives and culture.

[Dawud_uk]

It's funny, because there are some in the UK that say they would fight for Britain against the muslim who comes and takes british lands, lives and culture.

silent observer,

i would ask you to stop looking at this emotionally, look at the docterine of islam, what does islam say about the person who sides against the muslims with the disbelievers?

there is your answer on whether this person was right to do this in islam, if you agree according to islam what he did is wrong then it therefore follows that what he was doing was coming from outside the teachings of islam?

Abu Abdullah

[SilentObserver]

silent observer,

i would ask you to stop looking at this emotionally, look at the docterine of islam, what does islam say about the person who sides against the muslims with the disbelievers?

there is your answer on whether this person was right to do this in islam, if you agree according to islam what he did is wrong then it therefore follows that what he was doing was coming from outside the teachings of islam?

Abu Abdullah

No emotion involved for me, that is the truth. I personally do not believe that islam is correct, so this means little to me. The post about the muslim british solider I found to be arrogant on your part. Who are you to judge and think you know his intentions?

[Dawud_uk]

No emotion involved for me, that is the truth. I personally do not believe that islam is correct, so this means little to me. The post about the muslim british solider I found to be arrogant on your part. Who are you to judge and think you know his intentions?

a muslim who fights for the kuffar against his brothers is in principle an apostate and with all the rulings on that.

what i am saying is the islamic position on this issue, no muslim here has really been able to disagree because they would be on shaky ground if they tried.

so if what he has done is not correct according to islamic law and docterine then what he is doing is from outside islam but you argued he could still be a good muslim and i shouldnt judge but all i have stated is the islamic position.

Abu Abdullah

[SilentObserver]

a muslim who fights for the kuffar against his brothers is in principle an apostate and with all the rulings on that.

So then Dawud_uk is of the opinion that the members of Hamas and Fatah are apostates. All the shhia and sunnis fighting against each other in Iraq, apostates too. Darfur fighters, all apostates.

[Dawud_uk]

So then Dawud_uk is of the opinion that the members of Hamas and Fatah are apostates. All the shhia and sunnis fighting against each other in Iraq, apostates too. Darfur fighters, all apostates.

i am finding it hard to have a discussion with you as either you are not actually reading my posts or just totally misunderstanding them.

i will try again...

if a Muslim fights on the side of the disbelievers against his brothers and sisters in islam then in principle he is an apostate.

apply that principle to the situations you state above and you see it doesnt apply to all at all.

hope that helps,

Abu Abdullah

[SilentObserver]

i am finding it hard to have a discussion with you as either you are not actually reading my posts or just totally misunderstanding them.

i will try again...

if a Muslim fights on the side of the disbelievers against his brothers and sisters in islam then in principle he is an apostate.

apply that principle to the situations you state above and you see it doesnt apply to all at all.

hope that helps,

Abu Abdullah

So it is ok to hate and kill their muslim brothers themselves, but not ok to help disbelievers kill them.

[Dawud_uk]

So it is ok to hate and kill their muslim brothers themselves, but not ok to help disbelievers kill them.

no of-course not, it is a major sin. if two muslims fight each other unjustly then our prophet (saws) informed us both would be in the hellfire, the one killed also because he would have killed the other if he could.

but there are times when violence is justified when other means are not open and when for a correct cause. even you would agree with that principle would you not?

Abu Abdullah

[Isma'el]

Police free two in terror inquiry
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6337335.stm

[SilentObserver]

no of-course not, it is a major sin. if two muslims fight each other unjustly then our prophet (saws) informed us both would be in the hellfire, the one killed also because he would have killed the other if he could.

but there are times when violence is justified when other means are not open and when for a correct cause. even you would agree with that principle would you not?

Abu Abdullah

if two muslims fight each other unjustly

So are the muslims fighting each other in palestine, Iraq and Darfur justified?

[Bittersteel]

so two of them have been released,right?

[bint_khalid]

anyone got an update on this?, have they been charged or was this another attempt by the british government to scare the public once again

[Chechnya]

anyone got an update on this?, have they been charged or was this another attempt by the british government to scare the public once again

i think most if not all were released - the best evidence they had was the doodlings of one of the suspects daughters on a piece of paper

apparently the doodlings of a baby girl on a piece of paper were part of a major terror plot to destroy civilsation - evil girl lol :D