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Dawud_uk
01-31-2007, 11:22 AM
Bismilla hir Rahma nir Rahim
In the name of God, the most beneficent, the most merciful

Salutations and Beginning

Assalaamu Alaykum,
To the people of the Book – peace be upon those who follow righteous guidance,

I am posting this as many Jews and other non-Muslims have misinterpreted things I have said about Israel on this forum and others, some accused me of wanting genocide, of being a Jew hater etc, etc.

So to clarify my I regard Israel as immoral and illegal, built on stolen land and taken from the Muslims and Christians of that area and given the Jews who immigrated from other parts of the World. I believe it should therefore be destroyed, wiped off the map as a nation.

Did he just say that? Wiped off the map?
Yes I did! That does not however mean I believe that the Israelis themselves should be wiped off the map, they are people who in most cases didn’t perpetrate the initial theft, they only inherited it but that doesn’t mean the historic wrong done the Palestinian people should be left either.

A compromise position is best to be reached that will not breach the rights of the Palestinians, will allow the Jews a way out of the moral mess they have created and will also be in accordance with God’s law as laid out in the Quran (God’s final book to mankind) and the Sunnah (the example left to us by God’s final prophet and messenger – Muhammad (saws)).

This would obviously not be easy and these are my own views, not any ‘official’ Islamic position, just a way I see out of this moral mess of the Israeli-Muslim Ummah conflict that respects all and doesn’t breach the rules of Islam.

Temporary Solution First

The temporary Solution to allow cooler heads at a later date to look at this matter is to accept the offer of Hamas for a 10, 20 or even 50 year truce based upon the 1967 borders.

Why a truce and not a peace settlement? Well in Islam we cannot hand over one hand span of Muslim land, to do so would be ruling by other than God and his final messenger have revealed and could even be judged an act of apostasy therefore.

But we can have a truce, a temporary peace lasting a long period of time and would allow a longer negotiated settlement that would take into account the rights of both sets of people and also the Islamic law on this issue.

Why should the Jews who have the upper hand now accept such a compromise?
Well look around them. Muslims everywhere.
The piece of land they stole is surrounded by Muslims, Muslims who are increasingly turning towards their faith more and more and demanding Islamic rule. Sooner or later an Islamic state will come about and when it does it will be hostile towards Israel.

Truces respected by Practicing Muslims around the World

If a legitimate truce is already in place they would have to respect that and practicing Muslims can be trusted with their word if given. The secularists like the PLO cannot be trusted, they don’t believe in God truly as they think his rule is incomplete so how can you trust such a person not to lie another of God’s commands?

Such a truce would allow the Palestinians to develop their land, live as a people and get on peacefully with their Israeli neighbours without the need to go against God’s law and say they have signed away such Israel land for good.

It would give the Israelis some breathing space and would allow them perhaps to take a step back to really look at what were doing to another people. The Palestinians didn’t Gas you, burn you and make soap out of you, that was the West, the same people who support your state now. So why are you hurting the Palestinians for the wrong that others did to you?

Historically the Jews have always sought and found protection in Muslim lands, there is no reason to believe this cannot continue in the future as long as these wrongs in Palestine are sorted out first.

Now you say you want a homeland, somewhere Jews can go and live according to their customs and laws, well buy it don’t steal it. The Muslims in al-Andalus allowed you to rule by your laws and customs in your towns, why couldn’t such a deal be made in the future?

My ‘Final Solution’ to the Jewish Problem

This is my eventual idea of a final settlement for the Palestinian / Israeli problem after such a Truce runs out. Such a truce could off-course keep being renewed but it would be better for all for a permanent solution to be found.

1. The Jews of Israel accept the sovereignty of the Islamic state which should God willing be in place at the end of such a truce, THIS IS A MUST FOR MUSLIMS around the world for just an agreement to be respected. As Muslims we cannot let you take this land and say it is yours. You can own land within the Islamic state, but you cannot say it is not part of that state.

2. The Jews in their personal affairs, within their own towns and cities would be free to live by their own laws as based upon their scripture and this would have to be respected by the Muslims. But when dealing with Muslims they would have to do so through the laws found in the Shariah and respect the external foreign policies of the Muslim state also.

3. The Jews would have to pay the Jiziyah, for the protection of the Islamic state they lived in and could levy their own taxes to run their own affairs.

4. Jews could choose to move to this land if they wished and buy land there if they wished, as they could to any part of such a future Muslim state, other than the land of the two holy sanctuaries.

5. Each Jewish family or community would have to negotiate a compensation settlement with the Palestinians whose land they are living on if it was stolen in the first place. Where the Palestinian people could have a piece of land back if they wished or the Jews could buy it off them if they could agree a price between themselves. Such deals are likely given that the original inhabitants of that land would be long dead and so their heirs would not be able to all live on it anyway so makes sense for them to sell it and split the proceeds.

6. All Such agreements would have to be respected by the Muslim State forever more and couldn’t be reopened once agreed by the family and those whose land they are on but if the family wanted their land back, well it is theirs and it has to be returned to them and those who are living on it will have to buy somewhere else to live.

What happens if not such Truce or Agreement?

What will happen if there is no such truce or agreement between us?

Well the Muslim State, the Khilafate is going to come back, God willing soon. But sooner or later it will come about And if no such truce is in place they don’t have to respect any previous agreements signed through secularists like the PLO that don’t conform to Islamic standards.

Such a state would almost certainly make War upon Israel and attempt to destroy it, as we would see it as our duty to correct such a terrible historic wrong. Now maybe they would impose a just settlement to all parties afterwards… or perhaps they would deal with the Jews by expelling them all to Europe or even taking them as captives or worse for the Jews killing their men folk and enslaving the rest. All permissible in Islamic Law against a people behaving as the Jews of Israel are behaving.

So any of the above things could happen, so really its in the interests of the Palestinians, in the future interests of the Jews of Israel to make a truce now and when a future Islamic state comes about make a deal with them, a just settlement that will not compromise on Islamic law, but will see this conflict resolved once and for everyone’s benefit so future wars can be avoided.

Assalaamu Alaykum,
To the people of the Book – peace be upon those who follow righteous guidance,

Abu Abdullah, Daw’ud Mannion
Written 11th Murharram 1428
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Dahir
02-01-2007, 02:38 AM
The computer says I can't give you reputation -- I have to spread it around a bit or something...:confused:

But my unofficial reputation points to you for being courageous enough to speak your mind, even to the slight dislike of certain posters.

I like the effort and time you've put into this and I'm 100% in support of an idea.

Historically the Jews have always sought and found protection in Muslim lands, there is no reason to believe this cannot continue in the future as long as these wrongs in Palestine are sorted out first.
Very well said. I too believe that Israeli Jews have nothing to fear. The Caliphate has always looked after minority groups with a protective eye and shield, and this should carry on into the future Caliphate, god willing.

:thumbs_up
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tomtomsmom
02-01-2007, 03:21 AM
Yes very well said. The Palestinians deserve their land back!
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ManchesterFolk
02-01-2007, 03:42 AM
So to clarify my I regard Israel as immoral and illegal, built on stolen land and taken from the Muslims and Christians of that area and given the Jews who immigrated from other parts of the World. I believe it should therefore be destroyed, wiped off the map as a nation.
Your first wrong assumption. Less than 50% of Jews who currently live in Israel today are born of parents who are of European Jewry. Arab Jews are the majority in Israel's Jewish poulation. Many kicked out or fled because of Arab riots and hatred against them and many never left and had a presence in the land for a long time.

http://www.samuelfreedman.com/articl...t10132003.html

Even at the height of the Arab revolt in 1938, the British High Commissioner to Palestine believed the Arab landowners were complaining about sales to Jews to drive up prices for lands they wished to sell. Many Arab landowners had been so terrorized by Arab rebels they decided to leave Palestine and sell their property to the Jews.
Porath (77), pp. 86-87.

A compromise position is best to be reached that will not breach the rights of the Palestinians, will allow the Jews a way out of the moral mess they have created and will also be in accordance with God’s law as laid out in the Quran (God’s final book to mankind) and the Sunnah (the example left to us by God’s final prophet and messenger – Muhammad (saws)).
Okay, so in your view there is no compromise. Your right, they are wrong that is it. Not only is that a narrow way of looking at life in general, but about the majority of the world believes there is no more an Arab right to the land then a Jewish right. If you did not notice, you speak of the Quran, yet the Quran was written and Muhammad was born in 570 AD, centuries upon centuries earlier the Jews were residing in Jerusalem and the Holy land. The Arabs that have genetic ties to there bretherin from Arabia have no relation to the land and came into the scene much later.

This image shows a sign of proof that the Holy Temple to the Jews did exist way before Muhammad and they were residing there:

IMAGE 1

This would obviously not be easy and these are my own views, not any ‘official’ Islamic position, just a way I see out of this moral mess of the Israeli-Muslim Ummah conflict that respects all and doesn’t breach the rules of Islam.
Your morality is not viewed as very moral to the rest of the world. Soon every Jew in Israel will be the son or relative of one who "stole land". Are you going to drive them all out, they are not natives now? An Arab argument is, The Jews were there thousands of years ago, are you going to drive out the Arabs even though they have been their for such a long time, and tell the Arabs to give the land back to the Jews. "They didn't take it". This will be the case with the Jews as well.

Your solutions, are not solutions. They are apeasing you, and saying "to hell" with the rest of the world. You obviously have no interest in global peace or understanding, so therefore, why should anyone care to make peace with you? You obviously care nothing to make peace with Israel.

Why a truce and not a peace settlement? Well in Islam we cannot hand over one hand span of Muslim land, to do so would be ruling by other than God and his final messenger have revealed and could even be judged an act of apostasy therefore.
What makes it Muslim land? Go back to its origins and it is pagan land, but these pagans are no longer around, so the latest surviving people who lived in the land are the Jews. A truce does nothing. For Israel to go back to 1967 borders would be suicide if there was no peace agreement signed. The 1967 borders make the vulnerable again, so why make them vulnerable for peace for 25 years and then another attack. That is just dumb!

The piece of land they stole is surrounded by Muslims, Muslims who are increasingly turning towards their faith more and more and demanding Islamic rule. Sooner or later an Islamic state will come about and when it does it will be hostile towards Israel.
If that happens, it will certainly not go well for the islamic world because I can garuntee you that if an invading army destroys Israel, they will launch Nukes at all of there enemies before they go out. It is there insurance policy to deter an attack.

No more Israel, could equal no more many Islamic countries who attacked her.

If a legitimate truce is already in place they would have to respect that and practicing Muslims can be trusted with their word if given. The secularists like the PLO cannot be trusted, they don’t believe in God truly as they think his rule is incomplete so how can you trust such a person not to lie another of God’s commands?
Hamas is currently in the middle of a truce, yet have launched over 65 rockets into pre-1967 Israel at civilians. How can they be respected to keep their truce?

The Palestinians didn’t Gas you, burn you and make soap out of you
May I introduce you to the old Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (A Palestinian). You might be friends:

The Grand Mufti and Hitler Image
The Grand Mufti overlooking SS recruits (SS ran the death camps)
Grand Mufti gives the "Heil Hitler" salute.

Now you say you want a homeland, somewhere Jews can go and live according to their customs and laws, well buy it don’t steal it.
By 1947, proof shows that the Zionists had actually purchased a huge amount of the land that was swamp before they made them into cities.

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6640/zion/emek.html

Land in Palestine was largely owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. Absentee landlords were not unique to the Mandate of Palestine. The refusal of absentee landlords to sell land to local residents lead to riots on Prince Edward Island (Canada) in the 1860's and in Ireland (from the 1640's) contributed significantly to the trouble that continues till today.

The problem of absentee landlords is not only historic, even today absentee landlords prevent land improvement, reduction of poverty and increases in living standards. Unlike someone who lives near the land they own and manage, absentee landlords do not take much interest in the land. They drain local wealth, particularly that of rural areas and the Third World. At the time question, Palestine was definitly part of the third world, about 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins. The Zionist sought to change this, and they did. In 1937 the Peel Commission (a British Royal Commission of inquiry) issues a report that concluded that the Jews in Palestine (along with the work of the British Administration) had resulted in higher wages, an improved standard of living and ample employment opportunities.
Palestine Royal Commission (1937), pp. 241-242

1. The Jews of Israel accept the sovereignty of the Islamic state which should God willing be in place at the end of such a truce, THIS IS A MUST FOR MUSLIMS around the world for just an agreement to be respected. As Muslims we cannot let you take this land and say it is yours. You can own land within the Islamic state, but you cannot say it is not part of that state.
How is that fair? If a Jew came up to you and said you must accept Jewish sverereignty they would say never. To make this claim is ridiculous, and it would lead to Jewish deaths, destruction of Jewish prayer areas, much more.

This demand is not only unsuitable, but if you were a lawyer tring to negotiate I would fire you.

2. The Jews in their personal affairs, within their own towns and cities would be free to live by their own laws as based upon their scripture and this would have to be respected by the Muslims. But when dealing with Muslims they would have to do so through the laws found in the Shariah and respect the external foreign policies of the Muslim state also.
Or you could leave it as it is now. Full Muslim control over the Temple Mount, and Muslims may practice there religion freely just like Sikhs and Bahai's.

3. The Jews would have to pay the Jiziyah, for the protection of the Islamic state they lived in and could levy their own taxes to run their own affairs.
That is just plain funny. If the Jews ever made Muslims pay a tax for "protection" the Islamic world would scream like a bunch of wild babies. What would the Jews be proected from "riots against them like the riots in palestine against the Jews before '48?

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/britainriots.html
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/mid..._Palestine.asp
http://www.aish.com/Israel/articles/..._on_a_riot.asp

4. Jews could choose to move to this land if they wished and buy land there if they wished, as they could to any part of such a future Muslim state, other than the land of the two holy sanctuaries.
Is that fair, especially since Jews give you cotrol over your site? Oh wait, us Non-Muslims are second class citizens to you. Your elitist and supremist attitude is compeltly "fair" to your insane moral code.

5. Each Jewish family or community would have to negotiate a compensation settlement with the Palestinians whose land they are living on if it was stolen in the first place. Where the Palestinian people could have a piece of land back if they wished or the Jews could buy it off them if they could agree a price between themselves. Such deals are likely given that the original inhabitants of that land would be long dead and so their heirs would not be able to all live on it anyway so makes sense for them to sell it and split the proceeds.

6. All Such agreements would have to be respected by the Muslim State forever more and couldn’t be reopened once agreed by the family and those whose land they are on but if the family wanted their land back, well it is theirs and it has to be returned to them and those who are living on it will have to buy somewhere else to live.

What happens if not such Truce or Agreement?

What will happen if there is no such truce or agreement between us?

Well the Muslim State, the Khilafate is going to come back, God willing soon. But sooner or later it will come about And if no such truce is in place they don’t have to respect any previous agreements signed through secularists like the PLO that don’t conform to Islamic standards.

Such a state would almost certainly make War upon Israel and attempt to destroy it, as we would see it as our duty to correct such a terrible historic wrong. Now maybe they would impose a just settlement to all parties afterwards… or perhaps they would deal with the Jews by expelling them all to Europe or even taking them as captives or worse for the Jews killing their men folk and enslaving the rest. All permissible in Islamic Law against a people behaving as the Jews of Israel are behaving.

So any of the above things could happen, so really its in the interests of the Palestinians, in the future interests of the Jews of Israel to make a truce now and when a future Islamic state comes about make a deal with them, a just settlement that will not compromise on Islamic law, but will see this conflict resolved once and for everyone’s benefit so future wars can be avoided.
The rest of your post is so laughable it is not even funny. How can I even respond to this, except to point you towards a history book and show you that your radical extremist views, and arrogance is just going to lead you to another downfall.

Your solution makes as much sense as Jews negotiating and taking palestinian homes because the Palestinians lived on the land of there ancestors 2,000 years ago.

Both of your religious claims on the land are dumb and will never be recongnized by the world.

Your in a dream land. WAKE UP.
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rav
02-01-2007, 03:47 AM
"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."
-- Local Arab leader
to British Peel Commission, 1937

Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
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eagleye
02-04-2007, 09:26 PM
1. The Jews of Israel accept the sovereignty of the Islamic state which should God willing be in place at the end of such a truce, THIS IS A MUST FOR MUSLIMS around the world for just an agreement to be respected. As Muslims we cannot let you take this land and say it is yours. You can own land within the Islamic state, but you cannot say it is not part of that state.
does not sound as a suggestion, but set condition post-war by a victorious.

2. The Jews in their personal affairs, within their own towns and cities would be free to live by their own laws as based upon their scripture and this would have to be respected by the Muslims. But when dealing with Muslims they would have to do so through the laws found in the Shariah and respect the external foreign policies of the Muslim state also.
hypothetically, if the Jews win a war you going to be abide by Jewish laws. is it OK by you? (as you expect for Jews to take it as OK)

3. The Jews would have to pay the Jiziyah, for the protection of the Islamic state they lived in and could levy their own taxes to run their own affairs.
is it OK Jews will do the same to you if happens you are be at their sovereignty?

4. Jews could choose to move to this land if they wished and buy land there if they wished, as they could to any part of such a future Muslim state, other than the land of the two holy sanctuaries.
if such condition delivered to you?

5. Each Jewish family or community would have to negotiate a compensation settlement with the Palestinians whose land they are living on if it was stolen in the first place. Where the Palestinian people could have a piece of land back if they wished or the Jews could buy it off them if they could agree a price between themselves. Such deals are likely given that the original inhabitants of that land would be long dead and so their heirs would not be able to all live on it anyway so makes sense for them to sell it and split the proceeds.
Palestinians??? is it not Islamic matters?

6. All Such agreements would have to be respected by the Muslim State forever more and couldn’t be reopened once agreed by the family and those whose land they are on but if the family wanted their land back, well it is theirs and it has to be returned to them and those who are living on it will have to buy somewhere else to live.
and such if the opposite occur would you take it as OK?
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eagleye
02-04-2007, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
What happens if not such Truce or Agreement?

What will happen if there is no such truce or agreement between us?
Truce is synonymous to cease fire between forces which you confusing with surrender conditions, for the lost party. quite different.
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islamway
02-04-2007, 09:55 PM
Our Struggle with the Jews is a Struggle for Existence, Not a Struggle for Land

Source: Al-Asaalah Magazine, Issue 30 (pg. 5-6)
Translator: abu maryam
Produced by: al-manhaj.com

The enemies of Islaam and the ignorant people that follow them are trying to portray the reality of the struggle against the Jews as a struggle for land and borders, and as a problem of refugees and water ports. And they make it seem as if it is possible to end this struggle with peaceful coexistence and by compensating the refugees, rectifying their condition of living, dispersing them throughout the land and establishing a weak petty secular state, which will live under the Zionist power and which will serve as a shield for the Zionist state (against their surrounding enemies).
But all of these people don’t realize that our struggle with the Jews goes way back, ever since the first Islamic state was established in Madeenah with Muhammad (SAWS) the Messenger sent to all of mankind, as its leader. Allaah has related to us in the Qur'ân, the reality of the Jews’ malice and hatred for the ummah of Islaam and Tawheed, as he says: “You will surely find that the people with the most enmity towards the believers are the Jews and the polytheists.”
[Surah Al-Maa’idah: 82]

So see how Allaah has placed the Jews before the polytheists in their hatred and enmity (towards the Muslims). Even though they are united in their disbelief, they differ (from others) in their (immense) hatred towards the ummah of Muhammad (SAWS), as Allaah says: “The Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with you until you follow their religion (way).” [Surah Al-Baqarah: 120]

And ever since the first hour in which the Muslims let the beautiful fragrance of Islaam flow through it (Madeenah), the Jews were there showing enmity to the Muslims and their Prophet. So our Prophet, Muhammad (SAWS), was not safe from the harm of the Jews amongst their ranks. They tried to kill him three times. One time, they tried to kill him by putting a heavy rock on his head. Another time was when they placed poison in the forearm of a goat (for him to eat). And a third case was when the Jewish boy, Lubaid bin al-A’asam, may Allaah’s curse be on him, put a magic spell on him.

And lo, there are the Americans, supplying the Jews with the most ferocious and harmful weapons of destruction, so that they can kill the Muslim children, women and elderly people of Palestine. And they preoccupied the world with their American elections for the purpose of drawing attention away from the Jewish massacre and butchering of the Muslim people of Palestine.

And lo! There are the British, who supply the Jews with loud and explosive ammunition, which when used result in horrific deaths and everlasting handicapping for the youth of Palestine. So this ummah (nation of Palestinians) are open prey - whether young or old, infant or woman – in the hands of the Jews and their supporters.

And lo! There are the supporters of the Jews, who preoccupy the ummah and draw their attention away from the casualties suffered by the Muslim people of Palestine. And they make the people blind to the crimes committed by the Jews by broadcasting the Olympics and other worthless programs, which only make the ummah numb and put it to sleep!

Don’t the Muslims know that our struggle against the Jews is a struggle of Creed and a struggle of Religious livelihood? Don’t they realize that it is a struggle of culture, a struggle to remain in existence, a struggle of identification? Wasn’t it the Jews who set fire to Al-Masjid Al-Aqsaa? Weren’t they the ones who initiated archeological excavations under it, (ruining its foundation), so that afterward it can crumble on its own?? Weren’t they the ones who killed Muslims while they were prostrating in the month of Ramadaan in Masjid Al-Khaleel?!? Did they not cut open the stomachs of pregnant women, murder babies and set fire to the pastures and the farmlands!? Wasn’t it the Jews who transformed the masjids of Palestine into bars of alcohol and gambling?! Did they not turn them into compounds for animals and garbage dumps?!?

Then after all of this, it is said: “Our struggle against the Jews is a struggle for land and a border dispute!!” And the desired solution is to establish a petty Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, so that the followers of the three monotheistic – or so they claim - faiths can live in it. Are these people ignorant of the fact that the only Religion acceptable in the sight of Allaah is Islaam? Or are they ignorant of the fact that Ibraheem is free and absolved from the polytheism and idolatry the Jews and Christians are upon. “Ibraaheem was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but rather he was Haneef (worshipping Allaah alone), a Muslim. And he was not from the polytheists.” [Surah Aali ‘Imraan: 67]

Indeed, the only solution, which the Jews will understand, is Jihaad – done with its proper conditions – to raise high the Word of Allaah. The Jews do not want peace, rather they only want that this ummah surrender and submit itself to them, and that it bow and debase itself to them. And they want that it wipe out the word Jihaad from its vocabulary! They want them to become slaves, employees and laborers for them, having the right to beat them with their shoes and lash them with their whips whenever they feel like it!

Our real struggle with the Jews will not end by setting up a withered state that doesn’t raise the banner of Islaam nor establishes the Laws of Allaah. How can it come to an end when the Muslim recites in his prayer seventeen times - day and night – “And do not make us from those who gained Your Anger nor from those who went astray.” [Surah Al-Faatihah: 7]

Those who “gained Your Anger” are the Jews and those who “went astray” are the Christians, according to the unanimous agreement of the Tafseer scholars, and this is so until the Day of Judgement.

So the decisive battle in which the Jews will come to an end will most assuredly come to pass – it is inevitable. It will be a battle of Faith and a battle of servitude to Allaah. The Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: “You will indeed fight against the Jews and you will kill them to the point where the rock and the tree will say: ‘O Muslim! O ‘Abdullaah (slave of Allaah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.’ Except for al-Gharqad for it is from the trees of the Jews.”

This is a true promise from the one who doesn’t speak from his own desire (Prophet Muhammad (SAWS), which confirms the true nature of our struggle against the Jews, unlike what the misguided and misguiding media is portraying.
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eagleye
02-04-2007, 10:13 PM
so the enmity is way back. the media do fool us to believe it is all geopolitical issue
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Trumble
02-04-2007, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
So to clarify my I regard Israel as immoral and illegal, built on stolen land and taken from the Muslims and Christians of that area and given the Jews who immigrated from other parts of the World. I believe it should therefore be destroyed, wiped off the map as a nation.
They actually bought most of it (or at least the bits anybody actually wanted) from the owners at the time, but why let the facts get in the way?

Pretty much the same can be said about every other nation on the planet. Each was "stolen" from somebody else in some way or other, the only thing different is the timescales. As you implied yourself, the current generation of Israelis were born there. It's their home, all they know and they aren't going anywhere, nor submitting to anybody. End of story. The only way to peace is a genuine two state solution.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-04-2007, 11:51 PM
Same goes for the kids being born in Palestine, or at least those that get to survive.
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snakelegs
02-05-2007, 01:38 AM
islamway,
if the article you posted is true, apparently i was wrong. i thought the conflict was against the political movement of zionism and not against the jews.
if the article is true, then no matter what israel did - it wouldn't make any difference - the hate wouldn't go away.
does this mean that the zionists who try to label muslim anger as "antisemitic" to manipulate and negate criticism are not just doing a clever manipulation - but they're right?
oy.
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abdmez
02-05-2007, 03:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
islamway,
if the article you posted is true, apparently i was wrong. i thought the conflict was against the political movement of zionism and not against the jews.
if the article is true, then no matter what israel did - it wouldn't make any difference - the hate wouldn't go away.
does this mean that the zionists who try to label muslim anger as "antisemitic" to manipulate and negate criticism are not just doing a clever manipulation - but they're right?
oy.
I guess so.

our struggle against the Jews
It is your bigoted struggle.
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Jibril
02-05-2007, 03:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
I guess so.



It is your bigoted struggle.
The palestinian struggle against Israel is not a bigoted one. It is a struggle against oppression and one in which all people of conscience regardless of religion, support the Palestinians in. This is one reason why Israel is one of the most detested countries in the world. And not just among Muslims but among Europeans, Africans, Asians, and even Latin Americans. Nobody likes Israel because people inherently recognize oppression when they see it.
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arabiyyah
02-05-2007, 04:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
The palestinian struggle against Israel is not a bigoted one. It is a struggle against oppression and one in which all people of conscience regardless of religion, support the Palestinians in. This is one reason why Israel is one of the most detested countries in the world. And not just among Muslims but among Europeans, Africans, Asians, and even Latin Americans. Nobody likes Israel because people inherently recognize oppression when they see it.
wow, i never knew latinos even knew about palestine lol.
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abdmez
02-05-2007, 04:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
The palestinian struggle against Israel is not a bigoted one. It is a struggle against oppression and one in which all people of conscience regardless of religion, support the Palestinians in. This is one reason why Israel is one of the most detested countries in the world. And not just among Muslims but among Europeans, Africans, Asians, and even Latin Americans. Nobody likes Israel because people inherently recognize oppression when they see it.
I am a Palestinian. Jordan has treated us just as bad. Sudan, and Russia opress more then Israel, and I would rather live in Israel where I can practive my religion freely, then live in Shia run Iran as a Sunni for sure.

I and my family are in the cross fire. Are you? If so then tell me your thoughts on the conflict. If not then you shouldn't talk.

My cousin died from the conflict, want to guess who killed him?
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Jibril
02-05-2007, 05:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
I am a Palestinian. Jordan has treated us just as bad. Sudan, and Russia opress more then Israel, and I would rather live in Israel where I can practive my religion freely, then live in Shia run Iran as a Sunni for sure.

I and my family are in the cross fire. Are you? If so then tell me your thoughts on the conflict. If not then you shouldn't talk.

My cousin died from the conflict, want to guess who killed him?

Just because Muslim countries are themselves oppressive it does not absolve Israel of their crimes.

And I don't think you can compare Jordanian mistreatement of Palestinians to the Israeli mistreatement. Israeli mistreatement is more brutal, more collective and more sustained.

Also, just because I am not palestinian it doesn't mean I can't express my views about the conflct. Its ridiculous for you to say I shouldn't talk. This forum is here so we can talk about such matters don't be so arrogant.
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Dawud_uk
02-05-2007, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
They actually bought most of it (or at least the bits anybody actually wanted) from the owners at the time, but why let the facts get in the way?

Pretty much the same can be said about every other nation on the planet. Each was "stolen" from somebody else in some way or other, the only thing different is the timescales. As you implied yourself, the current generation of Israelis were born there. It's their home, all they know and they aren't going anywhere, nor submitting to anybody. End of story. The only way to peace is a genuine two state solution.
i agree the ones who are there are not the original criminals, though they do continue with many criminal acts.

but a two state solution is not acceptable in islam, it is a non starter as no future islamic state would be bound to respect such conditions and such a peace and therefore why should the jews sign it?

Abu Abdullah
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islamway
02-05-2007, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
islamway,
if the article you posted is true, apparently i was wrong. i thought the conflict was against the political movement of zionism and not against the jews.
if the article is true, then no matter what israel did - it wouldn't make any difference - the hate wouldn't go away.
does this mean that the zionists who try to label muslim anger as "antisemitic" to manipulate and negate criticism are not just doing a clever manipulation - but they're right?
oy.
the article is 100% true.jazakallahkhair brother.
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Dawud_uk
02-05-2007, 08:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
Just because Muslim countries are themselves oppressive it does not absolve Israel of their crimes.

And I don't think you can compare Jordanian mistreatement of Palestinians to the Israeli mistreatement. Israeli mistreatement is more brutal, more collective and more sustained.

Also, just because I am not palestinian it doesn't mean I can't express my views about the conflct. Its ridiculous for you to say I shouldn't talk. This forum is here so we can talk about such matters don't be so arrogant.
assalaamu alaykum,

exactly, this land belongs to the muslim ummah,

not to one people and no one has a monopoly of discussing this issue or any other due to their race of geography, though of-course someone who is there obviously should know more than the rest of us who are not.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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sister_fatimah
02-05-2007, 09:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
I am a Palestinian. Jordan has treated us just as bad. Sudan, and Russia opress more then Israel, and I would rather live in Israel where I can practive my religion freely, then live in Shia run Iran as a Sunni for sure.

I and my family are in the cross fire. Are you? If so then tell me your thoughts on the conflict. If not then you shouldn't talk.

My cousin died from the conflict, want to guess who killed him?
:sl:

May Allah subhana wa Ta'alah accept him in the jannah !!!! , ya Rahim amin
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SATalha
02-05-2007, 09:56 AM
Nicely said Dawud, although i think Isreal doesnt care if they got Muslim nations around them. Remember they got their friend America to help when they want
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Dawud_uk
02-05-2007, 10:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
Nicely said Dawud, although i think Isreal doesnt care if they got Muslim nations around them. Remember they got their friend America to help when they want
true, but when muslims return to the Quran and Sunnah they will have a friend in Allah that will mean it will not matter whom they have as allies.

but in the mean time we are being tested and purified until we return.

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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SATalha
02-05-2007, 11:19 AM
Yeah bro we need to do that. Incorporate quran and sunnah in our lifes as much as possible.
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eagleye
02-05-2007, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
islamway,
if the article you posted is true, apparently i was wrong. i thought the conflict was against the political movement of zionism and not against the jews.
if the article is true, then no matter what israel did - it wouldn't make any difference - the hate wouldn't go away.
does this mean that the zionists who try to label muslim anger as "antisemitic" to manipulate and negate criticism are not just doing a clever manipulation - but they're right?
oy.
looks like it
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Jayda
02-05-2007, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by arabiyyah
wow, i never knew latinos even knew about palestine lol.
si,

many palestinians and lebanese came to columbia and venezuela during the 80s

Dios te bendiga
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Trumble
02-05-2007, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
exactly, this land belongs to the muslim ummah,

not to one people and no one has a monopoly of discussing this issue or any other due to their race of geography, though of-course someone who is there obviously should know more than the rest of us who are not.
The "muslim ummah" has nothing to do with it, nor any claim on it. It is precisely a matter of race (Jewish and Palestianian Arab) and geography, something everybody with any involvement in the conflict for its first fifty years or so was perfectly well aware of.



format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
....although i think Isreal doesnt care if they got Muslim nations around them. Remember they got their friend America to help when they want
What do you mean "care"? They are very well aware of the fact, certainly, although, again, it is primarily because those nations are Arab NOT muslim. That fact has dominated their foreign policy for sixty years.. it had to. As to American help, they have never needed it.
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Jibril
02-05-2007, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
si,

many palestinians and lebanese came to columbia and venezuela during the 80s

Dios te bendiga
The president of el salvador is Palestinian.And they have a statue of yasser arafat in el salvador.
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brenton
02-06-2007, 02:46 AM
That's quite a discussion.
There seems to be some different views:
1. No Muslim leader ever has the right to give away land that was part of the Umma. There will never be a real Israel.
2. There is nothing wrong with Israel being in existence or in their relationship with the Palestinians.
3. Israel has a right to exist, but is not treating the Palestinians fairly, so there must be some solution--a Two State solution being the best one proposed, though it isn't satisfying to Palestinians who are displaced or to Israeli security. And it will draw more terrorist attacks and violence.

I think #1 is based on a bad assumption--many people have occupied their will on the land, tribal peoples, Hebrews, Jews, Romans, Christians and Muslims. I don't think Muslims have historical priority--or Christians for that matter.
#2 is naive and dangerous, making the false connection between critique of Israel and antisemitism.
I think some kind of #3 solution is the only way. All Arab nations since the 70's have ratified UN Resolution 242 and their cousins, urging:
1. Recognition of Israel
2. Return of land to pre-67 situation
3. Solution to the Palestinian oppression
All Arab & Muslim states ratified this as late as 2002.

I think it is the only solution. And unless the Palestinians are given support and safety, and Muslims recognize Israel (their leaders have), I can't imagine we'll ever have peace.

Two thoughts:
1. I'm also worried about a Shii-Sunni war this century, and Hamas-Fatah civil war.
2. The "Final Solution" comment is almost as racist and insensitive as the article saying the problem is with "the Jews."
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Muslim Woman
02-06-2007, 03:11 AM
Salaam/peace;


format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
I am a Palestinian........I and my family are in the cross fire. Are you? ........ If not then you shouldn't talk.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


so , we are not allowed to talk about unjust war going on in Iraq , we won't talk about Bush anymore , we will only discuss about our local matters ? That's funny. :shade:




In this thread '' Apartheid in the Holy Land '' , u claimed that --I wouldn't call myself a fan of Israel ".....but surely u look like a fan of Israel.


When many Jews are protesting against Israels' cruelty , i see u r always defending them.......are u really a Muslim living in Palestine ?



Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

By Julian Borger

A group of prominent British Jews will today declare independence from the country's Jewish establishment, arguing that it puts support for Israel above the human rights of Palestinians.



http://www.ichblog.eu/content/view/371/2/
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Keltoi
02-06-2007, 03:40 AM
I see a trend with threads like these. In the thread about the Taliban, a certain individual, an Afghan, was attacked because she didn't think the Taliban was good for Afghanistan. Same here with our Palestinian member. Because he doesn't tow the line of the anti-Israel crowd, his identity is questioned. Perhaps it would be better to read abdmez's posts, take them under consideration, and choose to agree or disagree in a respectful manner.
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SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I see a trend with threads like these. In the thread about the Taliban, a certain individual, an Afghan, was attacked because she didn't think the Taliban was good for Afghanistan. Same here with our Palestinian member. Because he doesn't tow the line of the anti-Israel crowd, his identity is questioned. Perhaps it would be better to read abdmez's posts, take them under consideration, and choose to agree or disagree in a respectful manner.
I too have noticed this. It has happened actually many times before. If a muslim person here does not agree with current bashing going on in a thread, the bashers accuse them of "siding with the kuffar", being a "traitor", "ignorant to the truth", and even as not being a real muslim. It makes me wonder. With all this bullying going on, how many muslims (and non-muslims for that matter) here are not saying what they really feel? If the valid concern is that muslim brothers and sisters will attack a person for not sharing the same view, then how many are not sharing?
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Skillganon
02-06-2007, 04:00 AM
I agree with Dawud.
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tomtomsmom
02-06-2007, 04:14 AM
I agree with Keltoi and SilentObserver. Everyont is intitled to their own opinion without being bashed for it. I am not going to pretend like I know enough about the situation to make a stand for either side. But I do know enough to know that this has been going on for way too long. But I don't see an end to it anywhere in the near future. Even if the goverment can come to an agreement then there will still be too much anger with the citizens to live peacefully. A very close and dear friend of mine is from Palestine. Never once had I ever been afraid of him untill the day he found out that his mother's house had been demolished because his brother (who didn't live there) was fighting in the resistance. That kind of hatred doesn't go away over night.
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Jibril
02-06-2007, 04:23 AM
Keltoi I did take his post into consideration. The response I got was that since I'm not Palestinian I should not have a right to comment on the mideast crisis. This is what he said:

format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez

I and my family are in the cross fire. Are you? If so then tell me your thoughts on the conflict. If not then you shouldn't talk.
I don't know what posts you're reading,...but he doesn't strike me as a terribly reasonable person. You should entertain the thought that maybe this is why people are jumping on him.

peace be to you
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Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 08:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The "muslim ummah" has nothing to do with it, nor any claim on it. It is precisely a matter of race (Jewish and Palestianian Arab) and geography, something everybody with any involvement in the conflict for its first fifty years or so was perfectly well aware of.
tough look trumble, cos there are 1.5 billion other muslims around the world and when even a few of them get their act sorted out israel is history. it is a matter of the final settlement to come about afterwards.

i would much prefer as little bloodshed as possible, a good negotiated settlement where the jews accept muslim sovereignty and the muslims accept a financial settlement for the land the jews took bt now dont want to leave.

Abu Abdullah
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SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 08:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
tough look trumble, cos there are 1.5 billion other muslims around the world and when even a few of them get their act sorted out israel is history. it is a matter of the final settlement to come about afterwards.

i would much prefer as little bloodshed as possible, a good negotiated settlement where the jews accept muslim sovereignty and the muslims accept a financial settlement for the land the jews took bt now dont want to leave.

Abu Abdullah
Are you suggesting that the jews will leave Israel or just the settlements? And are you talking about muslim sovereignty for palestinians, or rule over Israel?
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Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 08:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Are you suggesting that the jews will leave Israel or just the settlements? And are you talking about muslim sovereignty for palestinians, or rule over Israel?
i think if you read my original argument at the beginning of the thread you will see what i mean.

Abu Abdullah
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SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 08:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i think if you read my original argument at the beginning of the thread you will see what i mean.

Abu Abdullah
What you described there is never going to happen, your fighting against God's will. God gave the land back to the rightful owners. It always belonged to the jews. The sooner muslims accept that, the sooner you can get back to....whatever it is that you would like to get back to.
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Malaikah
02-06-2007, 08:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
What you described there is never going to happen, your fighting against God's will. God gave the land back to the rightful owners.
Just curious, how do you know what God's will is? :?
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Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 08:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Just curious, how do you know what God's will is? :?
i think silentobserver just revealed an awful lot about the 'undisclosed' part of his profile.

Abu Abdullah
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SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 08:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i think silentobserver just revealed an awful lot about the 'undisclosed' part of his profile.

Abu Abdullah
What that I'm an agnostic? I'll put it in if it makes you feel better.
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Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 08:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
What that I'm an agnostic? I'll put it in if it makes you feel better.
agnostics dont believe in God, they dont disbelief either. so how could an agnostic state God had given the land back to its rightful owners?

Abu Abdullah
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SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 09:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
agnostics dont believe in God, they dont disbelief either. so how could an agnostic state God had given the land back to its rightful owners?

Abu Abdullah
Agnostics are unsure of the nature of God. Some are unsure of wether or not he exists. There are many different types of agnostics. I simply am unsure of his nature. I believe that organized religion is a manmade thing.
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snakelegs
02-06-2007, 09:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Agnostics are unsure of the nature of God. Some are unsure of wether or not he exists. There are many different types of agnostics. I simply am unsure of his nature. I believe that organized religion is a manmade thing.
how does the above go with

format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
What you described there is never going to happen, your fighting against God's will. God gave the land back to the rightful owners. It always belonged to the jews. The sooner muslims accept that, the sooner you can get back to....whatever it is that you would like to get back to.
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SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 09:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
how does the above go with
Whatever his nature, we must take what he has given as a sign of his will. What "is", is God's will. No matter what the arab countries have tried, despite having the odds stacked in their favor, they have not been able to defeat Israel. To me that's a sign of God's will. We don't need any organized religion to see that.
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snakelegs
02-06-2007, 09:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Whatever his nature, we must take what he has given as a sign of his will. What "is", is God's will. No matter what the arab countries have tried, despite having the odds stacked in their favor, they have not been able to defeat Israel. To me that's a sign of God's will. We don't need any organized religion to see that.
it could just as easily be said that the arabs haven't defeated israel because israel has superior weapons.
"what 'is', is god's will" - does this mean all the injustices that take place all over the planet are god's will?
well, i don't see that, and i have no idea what god's will is.
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Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 09:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
how does the above go with
my point exactly snakelegs, bit of dodgyness going off here.
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Jibril
02-06-2007, 09:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Whatever his nature, we must take what he has given as a sign of his will. What "is", is God's will. No matter what the arab countries have tried, despite having the odds stacked in their favor, they have not been able to defeat Israel. To me that's a sign of God's will. We don't need any organized religion to see that.
Anything that has happened is God's will by default.

The Crusaders controlled the Holy Land for much longer than Israel existed. What happened to them? Israel can win 1000 wars a year, but all it takes is 1 defeat for the Arabs to wipe them out. And then so much for your 'sign'.
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Malaikah
02-06-2007, 09:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Whatever his nature, we must take what he has given as a sign of his will. What "is", is God's will. No matter what the arab countries have tried, despite having the odds stacked in their favor, they have not been able to defeat Israel. To me that's a sign of God's will. We don't need any organized religion to see that.
Just because something is in a certain state now, doesn't mean it will always be in that state. You can rightly say that because the Jews are in Israel at the moment that it was a part of God's will that they are there, but no one can say that the future holds and say that God's will is that the Jew's will never leave- no one has the right to say they know what God is intending to do in the future. (unless God actually told them).
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SATalha
02-06-2007, 02:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The "muslim ummah" has nothing to do with it, nor any claim on it. It is precisely a matter of race (Jewish and Palestianian Arab) and geography, something everybody with any involvement in the conflict for its first fifty years or so was perfectly well aware of.





What do you mean "care"? They are very well aware of the fact, certainly, although, again, it is primarily because those nations are Arab NOT muslim. That fact has dominated their foreign policy for sixty years.. it had to. As to American help, they have never needed it.
You are right when you call the guvernment arab, but the people are Muslims. They have never needed American help? Where do you think they get their wepons from and money? Dude what planet are you on!!!!!!:mad:
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KAding
02-06-2007, 04:09 PM
To be honest, this view will not lead to peace. It will lead to massive bloodshed. Maybe eventually you'll win, who knows. Then you can go start a re-reconquista ;). IMHO until this rigid uncompromising mindset changes Muslim countries will know little stability and development.
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SATalha
02-06-2007, 04:44 PM
Stability? You talk about stability, this is something that we had in abundance when we had a Islamic state. Since the fall we have been working to re-build it. That is all we want a Islamic country that is non-secular and non-western, but with Islamic principles is that so much to ask.

The loss of Al-quds and the rise of Isreal was a big wake up call to us and we are working towards rebuilding our past glory. Why cant we have our own society where western ideals and democatcy is non-existant.
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eagleye
02-06-2007, 04:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i would much prefer as little bloodshed as possible, a good negotiated settlement where the jews accept muslim sovereignty and the muslims accept a financial settlement for the land the jews took bt now dont want to leave.

Abu Abdullah
why should Jews accept a foreigner govern their on homeland.
for someone who is basing it's claim via religion also should note they are too.
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SATalha
02-06-2007, 04:48 PM
These settelements that Dawud is talking about are stolen property from the Muslims, so handding them back is essential if Isreal wants peace.
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eagleye
02-06-2007, 04:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Just because something is in a certain state now, doesn't mean it will always be in that state. You can rightly say that because the Jews are in Israel at the moment that it was a part of God's will that they are there, but no one can say that the future holds and say that God's will is that the Jew's will never leave- no one has the right to say they know what God is intending to do in the future. (unless God actually told them).
or no one can say God's will is to them to leave. whatever his plans, to us stays a mystery.
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Jibril
02-06-2007, 04:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by eagleye
why should Jews accept a foreigner govern their on homeland.
for someone who is basing it's claim via religion also should note they are too.
Thats easy,..its not their homeland. Their homelands are bulgaria, romania, ukraine, russia, germany, usa, and a dozen other countries whence they came.
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SATalha
02-06-2007, 04:53 PM
Look what ever the dispute, this will all become solved in due course. Whether the Mosiach comes to libirate the children of Isreal and than re-cliam Juruselum....oh wait they did that bit without him. Any way we will see what happens in the mean time we should establish as much peace in that region as possible. Also JUSTICE
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Jibril
02-06-2007, 04:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
Look what ever the dispute, this will all become solved in due course. Whether the Mosiach comes to libirate the children of Isreal and than re-cliam Juruselum....oh wait they did that bit without him. Any way we will see what happens in the mean time we should establish as much peace in that region as possible. Also JUSTICE
No peace without justice. Israel can't say they want peace while holding a gun to the head of the Palestinians. Until they stop oppressing Palestinians I will continue to believe that Israel has no right to exist since they have taken this right away from the Palestinians.
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eagleye
02-06-2007, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
Thats easy,..its not their homeland. Their homelands are bulgaria, romania, ukraine, russia, germany, usa, and a dozen other countries whence they came.
wow, so many homelands :D
you basing on what it is not their homeland???
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Jibril
02-06-2007, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by eagleye
wow, so many homelands :D
you basing on what it is not their homeland???
If you're a Russian jew,...you get to go to Israel and boom its automatically your 'homeland'. No way in hell man. Not when Palestinians can trace their families hundreds of years in that region, thats their homeland. If a jew justifies it being a homeland by showing you jewish biblical sites, a Palestinian will justify it by showing you his great grandfathers house and birthplace. Any discerning person will see whose homeland it really is.
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KAding
02-06-2007, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
Stability? You talk about stability, this is something that we had in abundance when we had a Islamic state. Since the fall we have been working to re-build it. That is all we want a Islamic country that is non-secular and non-western, but with Islamic principles is that so much to ask.

The loss of Al-quds and the rise of Isreal was a big wake up call to us and we are working towards rebuilding our past glory. Why cant we have our own society where western ideals and democatcy is non-existant.
Probably because enough Muslims don't want it. You'll have to take out those within the Muslim world who do not strive to unite the Ummah, nor believe that the Shariah should be imposed. You can't blame that on Israel. Israel is not the reason that there is no Muslim-majority country on this planet which implements the shariah fully. It is naive to think it will happen if only you could take care Israel.
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KAding
02-06-2007, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
No peace without justice. Israel can't say they want peace while holding a gun to the head of the Palestinians. Until they stop oppressing Palestinians I will continue to believe that Israel has no right to exist since they have taken this right away from the Palestinians.
So in principle you think the Jewish state has a right to exist in the holy land as long as they stop oppressing the Palestinians?
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eagleye
02-06-2007, 05:34 PM
deleted
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eagleye
02-06-2007, 05:44 PM
a Muslim who comes from UK for instance to an Islamic country will be consider a foreigner? (odd) Islamic ummah is one, if I understood it correctly.
Jews as I read in some thread here, bought the parts of the land.
after that, they gonna ask who they are to host in their land?
Jews can trace thousands of years in that region. and the bible is far more old than Koran is. birth place in a train does not constitute a train is now baby's property. nor born in somebody's land. according to a Muslim here Palestinians are not owners of the land. and he is not alone majority see it as a Muslim land which is quite bizarre for a religion who originated from Saudi Arabia.
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Wolodyjowski
02-06-2007, 08:38 PM
Ok now i will say what i think about this conflict.

My country Poland was under occupations for 123 years, by 3 empires- Russia, Germany, Austria. It lasted since 1795 to 1918.
At those times those 3 empires were most powerful countries in world.They were like America now. They had most powerful and beggest armies.My country just became a victim of their imperial politicy.
Of course Poles made many uprisings against occupants. In 1830,in 1846, in 1863, in 1905, in 1917.
We fought for our freedom. We hever achieved any help from any country or organization, just like Palestina get help now from arabic countries or European Union. We were totally alone, even Pope didnt support us although that we were
catholic country.
But ladies and gentlemen through 123 years of occupation never polish soldier attacked civilians of our occupants.Never. They didnt kill innocent people like Hamas or Hesbullah do now. Thats why i call polsih soldiers real freedom fighters. They really deserved to be called like that. Those who attack innocent civilans dont deserve to be called men. Polsih soldier would prefer to die rather than to attack innocent civilian. And our occupation lasted for 123 years ladies and gentlemen, its much more than this situation in Palestina.
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Jibril
02-06-2007, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Wolodyjowski
Ok now i will say what i think about this conflict.

My country Poland was under occupations for 123 years, by 3 empires- Russia, Germany, Austria. It lasted since 1795 to 1918.
At those times those 3 empires were most powerful countries in world.They were like America now. They had most powerful and beggest armies.My country just became a victim of their imperial politicy.
Of course Poles made many uprisings against occupants. In 1830,in 1846, in 1863, in 1905, in 1917.
We fought for our freedom. We hever achieved any help from any country or organization, just like Palestina get help now from arabic countries or European Union. We were totally alone, even Pope didnt support us although that we were
catholic country.
But ladies and gentlemen through 123 years of occupation never polish soldier attacked civilians of our occupants.Never. They didnt kill innocent people like Hamas or Hesbullah do now. Thats why i call polsih soldiers real freedom fighters. They really deserved to be called like that. Those who attack innocent civilans dont deserve to be called men. Polsih soldier would prefer to die rather than to attack innocent civilian. And our occupation lasted for 123 years ladies and gentlemen, its much more than this situation in Palestina.
Thats a terrible comparison. Poland was colonized,..but so was almost every Muslim country for almost 200 years. During all those years of colonization Muslims never resorted to suicide bombs. There is a difference between being colonized and being imprisoned, abused, and humiliated every single day. Ofcourse colonizers are usually oppressive but never at the sustained level of abuse the Israelis have been subjecting the Palestinians too. Also, Russia, Germany or Austria weren't expelling Poles into refugee camps and taking all the land. Poles haven't suffered an ounce of what the Palestinians have suffered who are you kidding.
Reply

MTAFFI
02-06-2007, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
Thats a terrible comparison. Poland was colonized,..but so was almost every Muslim country for almost 200 years. During all those years of colonization Muslims never resorted to suicide bombs. There is a difference between being colonized and being imprisoned, abused, and humiliated every single day. Ofcourse colonizers are usually oppressive but never at the sustained level of abuse the Israelis have been subjecting the Palestinians too. Also, Russia, Germany or Austria weren't expelling Poles into refugee camps and taking all the land. Poles haven't suffered an ounce of what the Palestinians have suffered who are you kidding.
The Palestinians chose to leave their land though, when the boarding countries were about to go to war with Israel. Israel should be allowed to exist, they had no problem with the Jordanians (now called Palestinians)that lived in Israel when it was created, it was the Jordanians that wanted war and wanted the Jews to leave. They kind of brought it on themselves, not only that but Palestine is just as bad, if not worse than Israel in my book, they both are oppressive, consumed with war, and have no regard for human life. What makes Palestine worse is their guerilla warfare, they hide amongst their civilians, rather than fight a war, they launch attacks on innocent Israeli citizens, and now they are fighting against themselves over political issues. If they fought like men and actually tried to resolve the issue I would have more respect for Palestine but as I see them now, I would rather see Palestine wiped off the map before Israel.
Reply

Wolodyjowski
02-06-2007, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
Thats a terrible comparison. Poland was colonized,..but so was almost every Muslim country for almost 200 years. During all those years of colonization Muslims never resorted to suicide bombs. There is a difference between being colonized and being imprisoned, abused, and humiliated every single day. Ofcourse colonizers are usually oppressive but never at the sustained level of abuse the Israelis have been subjecting the Palestinians too. Also, Russia, Germany or Austria weren't expelling Poles into refugee camps and taking all the land. Poles haven't suffered an ounce of what the Palestinians have suffered who are you kidding.
Actually i am on second year of history in academy so let me claim that i know history of Poland better than you.
You said that Poles were treated better under occupation than Palestinians are now?
Let me tell you.
Polish children couldnt speak polish language in schools, they couldnt even pray in polish language.You said that our occupants didnt take our land?
Dear Jibril, after the thir partipition of Poland in 1795 Poland disapeared from european continent. There was no polish country.Our land was divided into Russia, Germany and Austria. And it still doesnt change my view that there is no justification for attacking civilians on purpose. You didnt change my view about this Jibril. What a mother can be who sends her child for death as a shahid? How can i call her a mother ? What should i think about mothers who are happy that their sons became martyrs?
Reply

Wolodyjowski
02-06-2007, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
The Palestinians chose to leave their land though, when the boarding countries were about to go to war with Israel. Israel should be allowed to exist, they had no problem with the Jordanians (now called Palestinians)that lived in Israel when it was created, it was the Jordanians that wanted war and wanted the Jews to leave. They kind of brought it on themselves, not only that but Palestine is just as bad, if not worse than Israel in my book, they both are oppressive, consumed with war, and have no regard for human life. What makes Palestine worse is their guerilla warfare, they hide amongst their civilians, rather than fight a war, they launch attacks on innocent Israeli citizens, and now they are fighting against themselves over political issues. If they fought like men and actually tried to resolve the issue I would have more respect for Palestine but as I see them now, I would rather see Palestine wiped off the map before Israel.
Agree 100 %
Reply

Zulkiflim
02-07-2007, 07:30 AM
Salaam,

The picture show it all...

Reply

brenton
02-07-2007, 11:33 AM
The picture says it all?
Some homeless guy sleeping in the street was not awakened by a giant, bloody snowball. Some unidentified soldiers walking by decided to take a picture of the bloody snowball and decide not to help the homeless guy, showing they are not really interested in the struggle of the poor. And then someone else takes a picture of the giant snowball, showing they aren't interested in the plight of the homeless either.
Reply

evilzionist
02-07-2007, 11:44 AM
Zulkifilm you are so full of Jew hatred,watch it before you explode somewhere.
And don't post photos of IDF soldiers that really doesn't have any effect.

As for this thread it is simply laughable,yeah that's right we are all jolly going to give the land of our ancestors to the Muslim plunderers and compensate them for trying to kill us only to be brutaly murdered afterwards on the spot.

---
:D

Why don't Muslims give back all the lands they stole from the original inhabitants and go back to Saudi Arabia which is the home of Islam by the same logic?
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 12:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by evilzionist
Zulkifilm you are so full of Jew hatred,watch it before you explode somewhere.
And don't post photos of IDF soldiers that really doesn't have any effect.

As for this thread it is simply laughable,yeah that's right we are all jolly going to give the land of our ancestors to the Muslim plunderers and compensate them for trying to kill us only to be brutaly murdered afterwards on the spot.

To give the "Palestinians" to run a state,what is it some kind of joke,look how well they get along with each other now you want to give these barbarians a state??:D

Why don't Muslims give back all the lands they stole from the original inhabitants and go back to Saudi Arabia which is the home of Islam by the same logic?
hmmm interesting choice of name, i assume you are trying to be ironic.

if you choose not to accept a truce, choose not to accept a final settlement that recognises muslim sovereignty then really then the muslims are left with no option.

i really hope others are not as close minded as you in israel but i think they might be unfortunetely.

Abu Abdullah
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KAding
02-07-2007, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Why a truce and not a peace settlement? Well in Islam we cannot hand over one hand span of Muslim land, to do so would be ruling by other than God and his final messenger have revealed and could even be judged an act of apostasy therefore.
This is an interesting position with far-reaching consequences. Obviously the land that is now Israel is not the only land Muslims ever lost. To give a few examples of much more massive land loss:

1. Much of the Balkans was ones under Muslims (Ottoman) rule. Up to the gates of Vienna.
2. Much of what is now Russia was Islamic until at least the 18th century
3. The Mughal Empire streched deep into what is now Hindu India. Lets not forget that after the Indian independence many Muslims were uprooted and moved to what is now Pakistan.
4. Spain was Muslim land for centuries

Is the above ruling applies to Israel. Then logically, it also applies to all these cases. So I assume the solution you extend to the Jews in Israel also extends to the Spaniards, Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks, Hungarians, Serbians, Indians, Russians, Ukranians, etc? If not, why not? What makes these cases different?

In short: looks like the Muhajedeen have their work cut out for them ;).
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 02:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
This is an interesting position with far-reaching consequences. Obviously the land that is now Israel is not the only land Muslims ever lost. To give a few examples of much more massive land loss:

1. Much of the Balkans was ones under Muslims (Ottoman) rule. Up to the gates of Vienna.
2. Much of what is now Russia was Islamic until at least the 18th century
3. The Mughal Empire streched deep into what is now Hindu India. Lets not forget that after the Indian independence many Muslims were uprooted and moved to what is now Pakistan.
4. Spain was Muslim land for centuries

Is the above ruling applies to Israel. Then logically, it also applies to all these cases. So I assume the solution you extend to the Jews in Israel also extends to the Spaniards, Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks, Hungarians, Serbians, Indians, Russians, Ukranians, etc? If not, why not? What makes these cases different?

In short: looks like the Muhajedeen have their work cut out for them ;).
actually it is one of the prophesies reported from the prophet Muhammad saws that rome and india will both be under muslim rule at the end times, but that is a different thread as is your's. please feel free to make a new thread and send me the link and i will respond to it there.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

KAding
02-07-2007, 02:23 PM
Ok, I will :).
Reply

eagleye
02-07-2007, 05:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
This is an interesting position with far-reaching consequences. Obviously the land that is now Israel is not the only land Muslims ever lost. To give a few examples of much more massive land loss:

1. Much of the Balkans was ones under Muslims (Ottoman) rule. Up to the gates of Vienna.
2. Much of what is now Russia was Islamic until at least the 18th century
3. The Mughal Empire streched deep into what is now Hindu India. Lets not forget that after the Indian independence many Muslims were uprooted and moved to what is now Pakistan.
4. Spain was Muslim land for centuries

Is the above ruling applies to Israel. Then logically, it also applies to all these cases. So I assume the solution you extend to the Jews in Israel also extends to the Spaniards, Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks, Hungarians, Serbians, Indians, Russians, Ukranians, etc? If not, why not? What makes these cases different?

In short: looks like the Muhajedeen have their work cut out for them ;).
but hey these are Jewish homelands according to Jibril :rolleyes:
Reply

evilzionist
02-07-2007, 07:43 PM
hmmm interesting choice of name, i assume you are trying to be ironic.

if you choose not to accept a truce, choose not to accept a final settlement that recognises muslim sovereignty then really then the muslims are left with no option.

i really hope others are not as close minded as you in israel but i think they might be unfortunetely.

Abu Abdullah
I am ironic.
Why should I recognise Muslim sovereignity?
Who gave you the right to declare that Israel is part of the Muslim Ummah?
The Muslims don't want an option,that is the problem.
We are here to make sure this is not going to happen.
Isn't that a surprise that you lost all your wars against Israel while you also started all of them?
Isn't it a surprise that you teach your children from birth to hate Israel and Jews and create jihadi factories?
Is it a wonder you're still stuck in 7th century mode?
Every country under Islamic rule is absoulutly horrible,otherwise tell me why aren't you living right now in one of your Islamic paradises?

This will never happen in Israel,never.
Regards,
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-07-2007, 07:45 PM
Isn't it a surprise that you teach your children from birth to hate Israel and Jews and create jihadi factories?
Wrong. Talk about attacks.
Reply

Jibril
02-07-2007, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by eagleye
but hey these are Jewish homelands according to Jibril :rolleyes:
No,.. I said they were the homelands of many Israeli jews in particular. And thats the point, you can't call the Middle East the homeland of an American jew born and raised in Bensonhurst, whose parents were also born and raised in bensonhurst, whose grandparents came from western Europe. It doesn't make sense. Even if they originated there 2000 years ago,..so what? All humanity originated in Africa does that make everyone African?
Reply

SATalha
02-07-2007, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
No peace without justice. Israel can't say they want peace while holding a gun to the head of the Palestinians. Until they stop oppressing Palestinians I will continue to believe that Israel has no right to exist since they have taken this right away from the Palestinians.
Ameen to that
Reply

eagleye
02-07-2007, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
No,.. I said they were the homelands of many Israeli jews in particular. And thats the point, you can't call the Middle East the homeland of an American jew born and raised in Bensonhurst, whose parents were also born and raised in bensonhurst, whose grandparents came from western Europe. It doesn't make sense. Even if they originated there 2000 years ago,..so what? All humanity originated in Africa does that make everyone African?
interesting to see Muslims without their homeland in meantime dwelling in foreign land...for 2000 years :rolleyes: especially when they lost to a conquerer Mecca or Medina.
Reply

deen_2007
02-07-2007, 10:53 PM
ameen
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 10:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by evilzionist
I am ironic.
Why should I recognise Muslim sovereignity?
Who gave you the right to declare that Israel is part of the Muslim Ummah?
The Muslims don't want an option,that is the problem.
We are here to make sure this is not going to happen.
Isn't that a surprise that you lost all your wars against Israel while you also started all of them?
Isn't it a surprise that you teach your children from birth to hate Israel and Jews and create jihadi factories?
Is it a wonder you're still stuck in 7th century mode?
Every country under Islamic rule is absoulutly horrible,otherwise tell me why aren't you living right now in one of your Islamic paradises?

This will never happen in Israel,never.
Regards,

there is not a single country under islamic rule, not one and this is part of the muslims problem. why should Allah grant us victory when we are sinful and far from his path?

didnt Allah not also punish the jewish people for their arrogance and transgressions by using their enemies to punish them?

so it is now, Allah punishes the muslims, his true believers by sending enemies against them such as the zionists.

when we return to our faith and remove the corruption and evil from the muslim lands then Allah will grant us victory.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

brenton
02-08-2007, 11:19 AM
Posts get deleted or edited on many forums, especially when the poster cannot control his or her outbursts, or they are of an inflammatory nature.
Reply

Goku
02-08-2007, 11:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by evilzionist
I am ironic.
Why should I recognise Muslim sovereignity?
Who gave you the right to declare that Israel is part of the Muslim Ummah?
The Muslims don't want an option,that is the problem.
We are here to make sure this is not going to happen.
Isn't that a surprise that you lost all your wars against Israel while you also started all of them?
Isn't it a surprise that you teach your children from birth to hate Israel and Jews and create jihadi factories?
Is it a wonder you're still stuck in 7th century mode?
Every country under Islamic rule is absoulutly horrible,otherwise tell me why aren't you living right now in one of your Islamic paradises?

This will never happen in Israel,never.
Regards,

Actually there was no country called Israel until the late 1940s. That land was under Muslim control and Muslim majority for centuries. The Arabs of Palestine took in Jewish refugees from Europe to help them against Nazi persecution. Lo and behold, no allied country of Europe wanted Jewish refugees. The Arabs helped the Jews and the Jews repaid them by setting up the zionist movement, taking the land of their hosts, creating terrorist groups to drive Palestinians out of their own homes, taking in Jews from all around the world to create illegal "settlements" and bulldozing Palestinian homes to this day, not to mention the violent and brutal occupation of Palestinian lands such as West Bank, East Jerusalem and Golan Heights, as well as killing many Palestinian civilians including women and children. This doesnt even include the brutal Israeli bombing of Lebanon in 2006 and the invasion of Lebanon in 1982. As well as the recent developments on Israeli demolisihing the gates of the Holy Al Aqsa Mosque and digging underneath it to try and destabilse its foundation.

As long as terrorist Israelis continue occupying Palestinian lands which they stole in 1967 (as if the UN appointed land in 1948, already unfair on the Palestinians, wasnt enough) unfortunately it looks like there will be conflict.

Even Israelis themselves recognise the occupation of Palestine as unjust, oppressive and brutal:

The face of refusal in Israel is getting younger. More and more, young people are refusing to be a part of the occupation and violent control of the Occupied Territories and choosing conscientious objection over the IDF
http://www.refusersolidarity.net/

There is a solution, Israel pulls out from all captured lands of the 1967 war and allows Palestinian refugees who were displaced return back to their homes, then the Arab states will recognise Israel, this is in the 2002 Beirut agreement. The ball is in Israel's court. As history as shown, with occupation comes a war of independance, costing lives. If Israel doesnt withdraw from the lands it captured like even the UN says it must, then the possibility of a war of independance from Israeli occupation is likely in the future, war is bad, it is better to solve things diplomatically.
Reply

eagleye
02-09-2007, 02:51 PM
till 1917 ottoman empire dominate the land then it was under British rule
nothing in history records points out "The Arabs of Palestine took in Jewish refugees from Europe to help them against Nazi persecution"
the Zionist Movement established during ww1 and not ww2
you provided imprecise records of history
Reply

Jibril
02-09-2007, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by eagleye
till 1917 ottoman empire dominate the land then it was under British rule
nothing in history records points out "The Arabs of Palestine took in Jewish refugees from Europe to help them against Nazi persecution"
the Zionist Movement established during ww1 and not ww2
you provided imprecise records of history
No one is saying the Palestinians saved the jews from ww2 or anything. But since the late 19th century the Palestinians were welcoming and tolerant of the jews that were moving there. Only when their numbers started to swell greatly after ww1 did Palestinians start to feel resentment toward Jewish immigration to their country. Thats because they saw it as a British plan (especially with the Balfour declaration) to steal their land and holy sites. But the Palestinians were not historically antisemitic although there have been many malicious efforts to somehow tie them to nazism and the 3rd reich.
Reply

eagleye
02-09-2007, 06:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
No one is saying the Palestinians saved the jews from ww2 or anything. But since the late 19th century the Palestinians were welcoming and tolerant of the jews that were moving there. Only when their numbers started to swell greatly after ww1 did Palestinians start to feel resentment toward Jewish immigration to their country. Thats because they saw it as a British plan (especially with the Balfour declaration) to steal their land and holy sites.
I would not point it out if, Goku would not presented it.
there are holy sites belong to the jews as well. the temple mount for instance is still a site holy to the jews even so there are the dome of the rock and al aqsa.
the jews however tolerate as well the present of the Muslims who occupies the most significant site to the jews.
let it be millions jews coming. the British are the owners of the land and not Palestinians and as history shows it was settled between them the owners (the British) and the jews eventually.
Reply

Jibril
02-09-2007, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by eagleye
I would not point it out if, Goku would not presented it.
there are holy sites belong to the jews as well. the temple mount for instance is still a site holy to the jews even so there are the dome of the rock and al aqsa.
the jews however tolerate as well the present of the Muslims who occupies the most significant site to the jews.
let it be millions jews coming. the British are the owners of the land and not Palestinians and as history shows it was settled between them the owners (the British) and the jews eventually.
The british aren't/weren't the owners of the land they were the thieves of the land. A thief might have something, it doesn't mean it belongs to him.
Reply

eagleye
02-09-2007, 06:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
But the Palestinians were not historically antisemitic although there have been many malicious efforts to somehow tie them to nazism and the 3rd reich.
I'm afraid to break it to you, that history presents a very gloomy picture.
Reply

Jibril
02-09-2007, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by eagleye
I'm afraid history presents a very gloomy picture.
I think historically Muslims have been less anti-semitic than Europeans and Christians. European attitudes toward Jews started changing for 2 reasons, guilt about the holocaust and a significant reduction in the jewish population of Europe.
Reply

eagleye
02-09-2007, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
The british aren't/weren't the owners of the land they were the thieves of the land. A thief might have something, it doesn't mean it belongs to him.
are you suggestig omar is a thief?...etc as they recieve the ownership of the land same way as the british. by sword.
Reply

Trumble
02-09-2007, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
They have never needed American help? Where do you think they get their wepons from and money? Dude what planet are you on!!!!!!:mad:
Planet 'Facts'. Most of the weapons used in the major wars against the Arab nations were actually of French and British origin. Most of their opponents weapons were of Soviet origin, so by your logic the Arab nations could have done nothing without Soviet "help". Today, Israel is a net exporter of weapons, not importer.
Reply

eagleye
02-09-2007, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
I think historically Muslims have been less anti-semitic than Europeans and Christians. European attitudes toward Jews started changing for 2 reasons, guilt about the holocaust and a significant reduction in the jewish population of Europe.
Europeans attitude is same toward jews as before. there are pros and antis as always. if jews were insignificant number we would not hear about anti semitic incidents in Europe. Muslims were not racial toward jews historically, but were anti to their way of belief. which most of the Islamic conflict, it's about quarrel over faith. "me right, you wrong" etc
Reply

Jibril
02-09-2007, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by eagleye
are you suggestig omar is a thief?...etc as they recieve the ownership of the land same way as the british. by sword.
Muslims never controlled the day to day lives of the people like the Byzantines did. Jerusalem was ruled by a foreign entity (byzantines) with foreign laws. In the case of the British, they were foreigners who took over from an empire (Ottoman) that followed the same Islamic based laws as the Palestinians. Thats the difference.
Reply

eagleye
02-09-2007, 11:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jibril
Muslims never controlled the day to day lives of the people like the Byzantines did. Jerusalem was ruled by a foreign entity (byzantines) with foreign laws. In the case of the British, they were foreigners who took over from an empire (Ottoman) that followed the same Islamic based laws as the Palestinians. Thats the difference.
irrelevant pointers you make. they (Byzantines, Muslims and the British) are all foreign entities who came from their homeland to conquer the homelands of others. in this case, of the jews.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-10-2007, 01:09 AM
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)



&&&

I did not read the whole thread....hope i m not repeating the links here........food for thought :okay:


Liberating America From Israel


Paul Findley

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/liberatingamerica.shtml


Nine-Eleven would not have occurred if the U.S. government had refused to help Israel humiliate and destroy Palestinian society.


Few express this conclusion publicly, but many believe it is the truth.



I believe the catastrophe could have been prevented if any U.S. president during the past 35 years had had the courage and wisdom to suspend all U.S. aid until Israel withdrew from the Arab land seized in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.




The U.S. lobby for Israel is powerful and intimidating, but any determined president — even President Bush this very day — could prevail and win overwhelming public support for the suspension of aid by laying these facts before the American people...




Carter’s Book is Work of a True Patriot


Paul Findley -- Chicago Tribune


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/c hi-0702070020feb07,0,5388645.story?coll=chi- newsopinioncommentary-hed



At the age of 82, Jimmy Carter entered the lion's den.



With the publication of his latest book, "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid," he did what a patriot would do: rally Americans to vigorous debate of a critical issue that affects our future. He deserves a hero's praise.



Instead, he has been attacked and defamed ... I also experienced firsthand what Carter now faces.



Toward the end of my 22-year tenure in Congress, I spoke in favor of Palestinian rights and was critical of Israeli policies of Palestinian land confiscation and Jewish-only settlements on Palestinian lands.


These actions were counter to American policy and values.

About the author



Paul Findley, a U.S. Congressional Representative from Illinois 1961-83, is the author of three books related to the Middle East, including They Dare to Speak Out:
People and Institutions Confront Israel’s Lobby (1985)
and, most recently, Silent No More: Confronting America’s False Images of Islam.

He resides in Jacksonville, Illinois. This essay was issued on Sept. 12, 2002.

Reply

eagleye
02-10-2007, 03:44 PM
you actually hijacked the thread.

a "honor among thieves" that cause for solidarity between aforementioned in your post and the Palestinians.

the facts of the matter remains. as Romans, Byzantines and British were as well the Muslims are subjugators of the land.
Reply

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