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paki
07-13-2005, 02:39 AM
Asaalam

are the admins on this forum salafis(wahabis)?
Reply

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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-13-2005, 03:52 AM
:sl:
We are Muslims. We follows Islam as revealed by Allah swt in the Qur'an, explained by the Prophet saws in the Sunnah, and understood by the early generations of Muslims, the companions, their followers and those who followed them.

Please read the following for info:
http://islamicboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36
Reply

Preacher
07-13-2005, 05:13 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar
:sl:
We are Muslims. We follows Islam as revealed by Allah swt in the Qur'an, explained by the Prophet saws in the Sunnah, and understood by the early generations of Muslims, the companions, their followers and those who followed them.

Please read the following for info:
http://islamicboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36
:sl:

JKK brother Ansar for very appropriate and excellent response.

:w:

Originally Posted by paki
Asaalam

are the admins on this forum salafis(wahabis)?
Two quick questions.

1. What is "paki" and how legitimate this word/term is etymologically?

2. What is/are salafis(wahabis)?

I am trying to get a better understanding to further our dialogue that you have initiated.

:w:
Preacher
Reply

paki
07-15-2005, 09:05 PM
i just used paki for no reason, theres no reason to go deep into it. and for what is a salafi i'm not much learned so if you can answer that that would be better.
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Genius
07-15-2005, 09:35 PM
Giving a person a label and associating them with a stereotype is not a good thing
Reply

Muezzin
07-15-2005, 09:49 PM
'Paki' is a contraction of 'Pakistani'. It is usually used in a racist or offensive manner.
Reply

paki
07-16-2005, 03:29 AM
to you maybe but not to me or to my friends. how many people really do think of it as racist? just estimate.
Reply

bro_faz
07-16-2005, 09:52 AM
Please understand salafi's and wahabbis are two very different sects which are sometimes mistook to be the same!
Reply

Muezzin
07-16-2005, 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by paki
to you maybe but not to me or to my friends. how many people really do think of it as racist? just estimate.
I'm Pakistani myself, I was just stating that definition for the benefit of brother Preacher who doesn't seem to have heard the word before :)

It is a weird sort of double standard - it's okay for us Pakistanis to call each other that word, but not for anyone else. Kind of like how some black people call each other the 'N' word and it's inoffensive, but offensive when a non-black person calls them that.

And back on topic...
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-16-2005, 04:18 PM
:sl:
As for 'wahhabi', there is no group on earth which calls themselves 'wahhabi'. It is a term used by some to label anyone they consider "extreme". For more info:
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com

As for Salafi, it refers to someone who follows the understanding of the early Muslims (salaf), including the companions of the Prophet Muhammad saws. Their understanding of Islam was the correct understanding, therefore, we all try to follow the understanding of the salaf.

For more info:
http://islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1841

:w:
Reply

tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 12:02 PM
Yes many of them are salafi wahabis. If you call someone salafi they will tell you we will delete the post, but if someone calls you a kafir, then its ok. Most of them fit the profile of the london bombers. Living in britain, pakistani origin, isolated from the british society and bogged down with saudi salafi teachings where a step forward is shirk, a step backward is kufr, a step to the left is haraam, and a step to the right is bida'. They are stuck! The only difference is they are not violent, other than that they fit the profile.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-17-2005, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by tru_nigga
Yes many of them are salafi wahabis.
Do you know what a Salafi is? It seems as though you are teeming with misconceptions.

Most of them fit the profile of the london bombers.
We unanimously denounce all terrorist activities.

Besides, you should educate yourself with the following:
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/wahhabis_terrorism.htm

I'm going to ignore the rest of your lame insults. If you would like to have a mature discussion I'm ready. But until you're ready to learn the truth, there will be no benefit. You have to be open-minded.

:w:
Reply

panIslamist
07-17-2005, 04:53 PM
Assalam alaikum

I just want to let it be known that Imaam Abdul Wahhab's movement did not propagate the killing of innocents or acts of terrorism that we see nowadays. On the contrary:

Ahmad bin Nasir bin Usman Muammari Najdi, the disciple of Shaikh Abdul Wahhab said before the ulema of the Haram Sharif in 1211:

"One of these fabrications is that the Sheikhul Islam sheds blood and plunders goods and has the audacity of killing people and calls all the Muslims of the world kafir..All this is a white lie" [4]

This is supported by the numerous ahadith against the killing of women and children and this was the position of Abdul Wahhab (RH).

Also Abdullah bin Mohammad bin Abdul Wahab, his son said: "And we do not view it permissible to kill women and children."

4. Alfawakehul Aezab fir-radde Ala mallam Yohakkim AsSunnata Wal Kitab (p. 55-90) by Sheikh Ahmad bin Nasir bin Usman al-Muammari An-Najdi (d. 1225)
Reply

tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 05:02 PM
He did say this:

Extracts from Sheikh Mohamed Abdel Wahab's letter to the Muftis of Mecca:

Quote:
And they gave us their strongest oaths, without it being asked from them, of the broadening of their understanding and the certainty of their conscience, that they no longer held the slightest doubt that the one who says: "Yaa Rasoolallaah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa-sallam)", or: "Yabna 'Abbaas", or: "Yaa 'Abdal-Qaadir", or other than them from the creations, seeking by that to avert an evil or bring a good from anything that Allaah ta'aalaa alone is capable of doing, such as healing the sick, or granting victory over the enemy, or guarding from a misfortune, or the like: that he is a mushrik guilty of major shirk, whose blood may be shed and whose wealth is lawful, even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone but he turned to the creations with du'aa', seeking intercession from them, and drawing closer to them, in order to fulfill his need from Allaah by virtue of their "secret" and by their interceding with Him for them while they are in the barzakh;
Reply

panIslamist
07-17-2005, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by tru_nigga
He did say this:

Extracts from Sheikh Mohamed Abdel Wahab's letter to the Muftis of Mecca:

Quote:
And they gave us their strongest oaths, without it being asked from them, of the broadening of their understanding and the certainty of their conscience, that they no longer held the slightest doubt that the one who says: "Yaa Rasoolallaah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa-sallam)", or: "Yabna 'Abbaas", or: "Yaa 'Abdal-Qaadir", or other than them from the creations, seeking by that to avert an evil or bring a good from anything that Allaah ta'aalaa alone is capable of doing, such as healing the sick, or granting victory over the enemy, or guarding from a misfortune, or the like: that he is a mushrik guilty of major shirk, whose blood may be shed and whose wealth is lawful, even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone but he turned to the creations with du'aa', seeking intercession from them, and drawing closer to them, in order to fulfill his need from Allaah by virtue of their "secret" and by their interceding with Him for them while they are in the barzakh;
That was actually his son Abdullah ibn Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhaab addressing the ulema around 12 years after Shaykh Abdul Wahhab ra died (in 1206 AH).

But i think you got the article from here:
http://www.islamicawakening.com/view...articleID=1207

Ahmad bin Nasir bin Usman Muammari Najdi (disciple of Abdul Wahhab) said before the ulema of the Haram Sharif in 1211: "The Shaikh did takfir of only those idolators who asked for boons from the saints and the virtuous, those who committed shirk and polytheism even after receiving full proof and clarification about the way of God. And moreover they were the first to initiate the war. It was then that the Shaikh battled with them and shed their blood. Under such circumstances the Quran, the sunnah and the ijma are all in his support."
Reply

tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by panIslamist

Ahmad bin Nasir bin Usman Muammari Najdi (disciple of Abdul Wahhab) said before the ulema of the Haram Sharif in 1211: "The Shaikh did takfir of only those idolators who asked for boons from the saints and the virtuous, those who committed shirk and polytheism even after receiving full proof and clarification about the way of God. And moreover they were the first to initiate the war. It was then that the Shaikh battled with them and shed their blood. Under such circumstances the Quran, the sunnah and the ijma are all in his support."
Could you elaborate on the bolded part, what idolatory he is talking about?
Reply

panIslamist
07-17-2005, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by tru_nigga
Could you elaborate on the bolded part, what idolatory he is talking about?
Those who did major shirk. Like for example, saying "Ya Ali madad". After receiving full knowledge and it was their intention to do so. Because intention is a major component. If a person is doing it out of ignorance he did not make takfeer.

This is considered major shirk by even non"Wahhabis".

If you want proof then look at this:
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12722

The greater shirk can take you out of the fold of Islaam and it cannot be forgiven (until you convert back).

Please read: http://www.fatwaislam.com/fis/index.cfm?scn=fd&ID=169
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tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 05:33 PM
Wait a minute, i asked what is the idolatory he is talking about?

So let me ask you what is shirk? Its not about "wahabis" . Its about what is shirk. So lets say :

The following is a translation from the book Ashadd al-jihad:


Muhammad ibn Sulaiman al-Madani ash-Shafi'i (rahmat-Allahi 'alaih), [who passed away in Medina in 1194 A.H. (1780),] was questioned about Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab an-Najdi. He said, "This man is leading the ignoramuses of the present age to a heretical path. He is extinguishing Allahu ta'ala's light. But Allahu ta'ala will not let His light be extinguished in spite of the opposition of polytheists, and He will enlighten everywhere with the light of the 'ulama' of Ahl as-Sunnat." The [collection of the] questions and his answers at the end of Muhammad ibn Sulaiman's fatwas are as follows:


"Question: Oh great 'ulama', the stars who lead to the path of the Best of Creatures (the Prophet)! I ask you: Is a person to be permitted to disseminate his ideas if he says that this umma has wholly dissented from the essence of Islam and from the path of Rasulullah (sall-Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam), just by measuring with his short sight and narrow mind the knowledge he has gathered from various religious books, and if he says that he is mujtahid and, therefore, is able to derive knowledge on Islam from Allah's Word and Rasulullah's hadiths, although he does not have any of the qualifications stated as necessary by the 'ulama' of Islam for being a mujtahid? Should he not give up this claim of his and follow the 'ulama' of Islam? He says that he is an imam, that it is necessary for every Muslim to follow him and that his madhhab is necessary. He forces Muslims to accept his madhhab. He says that those who do not obey him are unbelievers, that they should be killed and that their possessions should be confiscated. Does this man tell the truth? Or, is he wrong? Even if a person fulfilled all the requirements necessary for making ijtihad and founded a madhhab, would it be jaiz for him to force everyone to adopt this madhhab? Is it necessary to adopt a certain madhhab? Or, is everyone free to choose any madhhab he like?

Does a Muslim go out of Islam if he visits the grave of a Sahabi or a pious servant of Allahu ta'ala, vows something for him, cuts an animal near a grave, prays making a mediator of a dead person, takes some soil from such a grave to receive blessings or asks help from Rasulullah or a Sahabi to get redeemed from danger? Is it permitted to kill such a Muslim even though he says, 'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything. I make an intercessor, mediator, of that person with Allahu ta'ala to make me attain my wish, because, I believe that he is a beloved servant of Allahu ta'ala.' Does a person go out of Islam if he swears by something [or somebody] other than Allah? END QUOTE

Tell me what do you think about the bolded part? Especially the underlined part.
Reply

panIslamist
07-17-2005, 05:40 PM
I dont know if that is true but here is what the scholars have said.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:

“Shirk is of two types, major shirk which puts a person beyond the pale of Islam, and lesser shirk (minor shirk).”

The first type, major shirk, is “Every type of shirk which the Lawgiver described as such and which puts a person beyond the pale of his religion” – such as devoting any kind of act of worship which should be for Allaah to someone other than Allaah, such as praying to anyone other than Allaah, fasting for anyone other than Allaah or offering a sacrifice to anyone other than Allaah. It is also a form of major shirk to offer supplication (du’aa’) to anyone other than Allaah, such as calling upon the occupant of a grave or calling upon one who is absent to help one in some way in which no one is able to help except Allaah.

The second type is minor shirk, which means every kind of speech or action that Islam describes as shirk, but it does not put a person beyond the pale of Islam – such as swearing an oath by something other than Allaah, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that whoever swears an oath by something other than Allaah is guilty of kufr or shirk.”

The one who swears an oath by something other than Allaah but does not believe that anyone other than Allaah has the same greatness as Allah, is a mushrik who is guilty of lesser shirk, regardless of whether the one by whom he swore is venerated by people or not. It is not permissible to swear by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or by the president, or by the Ka’bah, or by Jibreel, because this is shirk, but it is minor shirk which does not put a person beyond the pale of Islam.

Majmoo’ Fataawa wa Rasaa’il Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, and al-Qawl al-Mufeed Sharh Kitaab al-Tawheed, vol. 1, p. 114, 1st edition
Major Shirk, is to worship other than Allaah, or to give the rights of Allaah to other than Him azza wajal. Minor Shirk, is every matter that contains an element of shirk. As well, Minor Shirk is to give right's to other than Allaah without putting that other object as a diety.

I doubt Abdul Wahhab ra said that.

IF you want to see his thoughts you should read:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ed/abdulwahab/
Reply

tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 05:53 PM
Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:

“Shirk is of two types, major shirk which puts a person beyond the pale of Islam, and lesser shirk (minor shirk).”

The first type, major shirk, is “Every type of shirk which the Lawgiver described as such and which puts a person beyond the pale of his religion” – such as devoting any kind of act of worship which should be for Allaah to someone other than Allaah, such as praying to anyone other than Allaah, fasting for anyone other than Allaah or offering a sacrifice to anyone other than Allaah. It is also a form of major shirk to offer supplication (du’aa’) to anyone other than Allaah, such as calling upon the occupant of a grave or calling upon one who is absent to help one in some way in which no one is able to help except Allaah. END QUOTE

So lets wait a minute, act of worship is where he says shirk comes from. So shirk to him is an act and not a aqidah. But lets look at the aqidah, what does this person who he says commits shirk think about this dead saint in the grave. Now the question was asked:

What do you think about this:

'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything.

And this:

Extracts from Sheikh Mohamed Abdel Wahab's letter to the Muftis of Mecca:

Quote:
And they gave us their strongest oaths, without it being asked from them, of the broadening of their understanding and the certainty of their conscience, that they no longer held the slightest doubt that the one who says: "Yaa Rasoolallaah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa-sallam)", or: "Yabna 'Abbaas", or: "Yaa 'Abdal-Qaadir", or other than them from the creations, seeking by that to avert an evil or bring a good from anything that Allaah ta'aalaa alone is capable of doing, such as healing the sick, or granting victory over the enemy, or guarding from a misfortune, or the like: that he is a mushrik guilty of major shirk, whose blood may be shed and whose wealth is lawful, even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone but he turned to the creations with du'aa', seeking intercession from them, and drawing closer to them, in order to fulfill his need from Allaah by virtue of their "secret" and by their interceding with Him for them while they are in the barzakh;END QUOTE

Now the question is regarding the bolded part. Is someone who believes that this dead person is powerless and that God alone controlles the affairs of this world involved in shirk?
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panIslamist
07-17-2005, 05:58 PM
:sl:

How is he powerless if he is invoking him for help?
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tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by panIslamist
:sl:

How is he powerless if he is invoking him for help?
Powerless as in:

"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone ".

Now can this person be a mushrik. Let me put it this way, has there ever been a mushrik on planet earth who will testify to the above?
Reply

panIslamist
07-17-2005, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by tru_nigga
Powerless as in:

"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone ".

Now can this person be a mushrik. Let me put it this way, has there ever been a mushrik on planet earth who will testify to the above?
"And if you ask them who created them, they will surely say "Allaah." (Soorat uz-Zukhruf, 43:87)

"Ask them: 'Who sends down for you your provision from the sky and grows it out of the earth? Who hears your prayer and sees your condition? Who brings the living out of the dead and the dead out of the living? Who directs the course of the world?' They will answer: 'Allaah.' Answer: 'Would you then not fulfill your duty to Him?'" [Qur'an 10:32]

The mushrikoon believed that this universe had a Creator who has no partners. However, they associated partners along with Allaah in worship. So, they believed that the Lord of the universe is one, but believed that other things deserved to be worshipped as well.

Read: http://www.calltoislam.com/article_page.php?article=23
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tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 06:24 PM
Interesting, i have some more for you:

39:3 Now surely sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone). And those who choose protectors besides Him (say): We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah. Surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ. Surely Allah guides not him who is a liar, ungrateful.

10:18 They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

31:25 If thou ask them, who it is that created the heavens and the earth. They will certainly say, "(Allah)". Say: "Praise be to Allah." But most of them understand not.

(23:84-87) Muhammad), say to them, "Tell me, if you know, to whom does the earth and its contents belong?" They will quickly reply, "It belongs to God." Say, "Will you not, then, take heed?" Ask tthem, "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Great Throne?"
They will quickly say, "It is God." Say, "Will you not then have fear of Him?"

Lets look at these verses again and lets compare them to what we were saying. Now we had this:

"that he is a mushrik guilty of major shirk, whose blood may be shed and whose wealth is lawful, even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone".

Now lets look at the verses again. Do you see something missing? Hint:

39:3 Now surely sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone). And those who choose protectors besides Him (say): We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah. Surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ. Surely Allah guides not him who is a liar, ungrateful.

And this:

Does a Muslim go out of Islam if he visits the grave of a Sahabi or a pious servant of Allahu ta'ala, vows something for him, cuts an animal near a grave, prays making a mediator of a dead person, takes some soil from such a grave to receive blessings or asks help from Rasulullah or a Sahabi to get redeemed from danger? Is it permitted to kill such a Muslim even though he says, 'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything. I make an intercessor, mediator, of that person with Allahu ta'ala to make me attain my wish, because, I believe that he is a beloved servant of Allahu ta'ala.' Does a person go out of Islam if he swears by something [or somebody] other than Allah? END QUOTE

Do you see now what is missing from the verses i quoted?
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panIslamist
07-17-2005, 06:30 PM
Yes thank you for proving my points (with those verses) which is conincidentally the 4 Rules of Tawheed by Shaykh Abdul Wahhab Ra.

These are:

1) The polytheists of Makkah did believe that Allah is indeed the Creator, Provider, Maker of the heavens and the earths. This was not enough to make them Muslims, and Rasoolullah(Saaws) was their enemy.

2) The polytheists of Makkah only called and prayed to their objects of worship so that they might intercede with Allah on their behalf.

3) Rasoolullah(Saaws) encountered people from several different religions. Some worshipped stones, others worshipped the sun and moon, and others worshipped the prophets and saints. Yet, he fought them ALL.

4) The polytheists who call themselves believers and Muslims today are worse than the polytheists that Rasoolullah(Saaws). They used to do their shirk in times of ease, but in hard times they would worship Allah alone with complete sincerity. As for today's polytheists, they do their shirk at all times, whether good or bad.

From: http://www.calltoislam.com/article_page.php?article=23
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tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 06:32 PM
Another hint!

'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything. "

Versus:


We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah.

The answer is in here:

even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone .

Now look at the verses, see whats missing now.
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tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 06:33 PM
Allah loves those who reflect!
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tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by panIslamist



1) The polytheists of Makkah did believe that Allah is indeed the Creator, Provider, Maker of the heavens and the earths. This was not enough to make them Muslims, and Rasoolullah(Saaws) was their enemy.

[/url]
Now lets look at it again:

"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone"

There is a missing word, a word the arab pagans and other pagans will never say. Look at the two statement and find the missing word.
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tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 06:40 PM
Final hint:

The koran says the pagan arabs shouted " has he made the gods one God! Now do you find the missing word!
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panIslamist
07-17-2005, 06:42 PM
Your argument makes no sense.

Regarding Rule #2

2) The polytheists of Makkah only called and prayed to their objects of worship so that they might intercede with Allah on their behalf.

And those who take Auliya' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah." Verily, Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever. [39:3]

and

And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him! [10:18]


The mushrikeen already knew that Allah is the ultimate authority, and they were attempting to get closer to Allah by calling out to others.

Their ultimate goal was Allah, but they were committing shirk because they were not calling on Allah directly.

The actions of the Arab Mushrikeen were acts of worship because they called on others in the hopes of getting nearer to Allah or intercession with Allah.

Anyways I have to go, please read the following for a detailed explaination of the Four Rules of Tawheed: http://www.al-ibaanah.com/pdf_files/...Ex_Qawaaid.pdf
Reply

tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 06:56 PM
The missing word is "alone". That is the word missing in these verses.

Now we look at it again:

"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone ". Now the verses never said alone. This is la Illaha Illa Allah. :)
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tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 07:07 PM
Shirk:

Al-Uzzah rules birth, death, marriage, springs, warfare, raids, grain, the Zodiac, the change of the seasons, the course of heavenly bodies, and Venus as the morning star. The many variant spellings of her name include Al Uzzah, al-Uzza, Al ëUzza, Al Uzza, ëUzza, and Uzza. Her titles include The Great One, The Propitious, and The Venus of Mecca.

Al-Uzzahís symbols include an acacia tree, a cluster of acacia trees, three samura palm trees, and the stone in the Ka'aba at Mecca. Green, her sacred color, was adopted by Islam as its sacred color. The acacia is her sacred tree. Grain and Syrian rue, the harmala plant, are also sacred to Al-Uzzah. Granite and meteorites are her sacred stones. Her sacred animals include the cow, lioness, and snake. In her aspect as Mari (also spelled Meri), she is a sea goddess. Meriís title is The Fish, and dolphins are sacred to her.

Invoke Al-Uzzah for fertility, battle, marriage, riches, astrology, oracles, love spells, seasonal magic, the fertility of crops, killing or taming wild beasts, and guidance in adventures. Invoke her as Mari for sea spells, and to protect seafarers. Al Uzzah received blood offerings in ancient times, sacrifices of humans and animals. She was also honored with visitations, pilgrimages to the places where her trees stood, or where her stone stood with a canopy above it.

Tawheed:

'I do not worship the dead person and do not believe that he has the power to do anything".

So:

"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone".

So this by definition is La Illaha Illa Allah! :)
Reply

Z
07-17-2005, 07:19 PM
Asalamu Alaikum

An interesting discussion here.

So to clarify, the Salafis/Wahabis are not a sect?

I was under the impression that the Salafis/Wahabis don't follow a madhab. They say we shouldn't follow an Imaam blindly. I also understand that they follow their desires like when it comes to a certain issue, they check for which of the 4 schools have the strongest daleel and then make their minds up about the issue. In most cases, they follow their Imaam, i.e their nafs, taking which the lighter opinion of one of the 4 schools. Further, their definition of 'authentic Sunnah' is that which suits their lifestyle as outlined by their 'scholars' such as Ibn Taymiya, al-Albani, Bin Baz, and Uthaymeen.

They also prey on certain people of society such as:

1. Those Muslims who are undereducated in regards of their Deen
2. Those who have just become a Muslim.
3. Those who are young and wish to compromise their Deen for the sake of Western philosophy and "The American Way."
4. Those who seek a reason (actually, an excuse) for rebelling against their parents and community.

If you notice, many young Salafis/Wahabis (those who reverted to become a Salafi/Wahabi) fall under those 4 catergories.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.
Reply

panIslamist
07-17-2005, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by tru_nigga
The missing word is "alone". That is the word missing in these verses.

Now we look at it again:

"even if he believes that the ultimate controller of the universe is Allaah ta'aalaa alone ". Now the verses never said alone. This is la Illaha Illa Allah. :)
The Arabs were not henotheists (because they believed that Allah alone has the power to create, give/take life and provide), but they were STILL MUSHRIKS. They agreed that Allah is the only one who has all these powers and complete ownership of these powers, and that He is the only Rabb.

You have to bring the proof to show that the Arabs thought their deities shared powers with Allah from the Quran and Sunnah.

And if you were to ask them who created them, they would surely say “Allaah" [43:87]

Ask them: 'Who sends down for you your provision from the sky and grows it out of the earth? Who hears your prayer and sees your condition? Who brings the living out of the dead and the dead out of the living? Who directs the course of the world?' They will answer: 'Allaah.' Answer: 'Would you then not fulfill your duty to Him?' [10:32]

Allah says that they believed that ALLAH alone has the power to do all of this, not "Allah and others"

Allah also demands that ALL forms of worship be for Him ALONE.

And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!" [40:60]

Allah doesn't say "Call on me and my friends", does He?

Also, Shirk DOES NOT HAVE TO BE WHAT THE MUSHRIK ARABS DID.

Riyaa is also a type of SHIRK, which was never done by the Mushriks.
Reply

panIslamist
07-17-2005, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by 350z
Asalamu Alaikum

An interesting discussion here.

So to clarify, the Salafis/Wahabis are not a sect?

I was under the impression that the Salafis/Wahabis don't follow a madhab. They say we shouldn't follow an Imaam blindly. I also understand that they follow their desires like when it comes to a certain issue, they check for which of the 4 schools have the strongest daleel and then make their minds up about the issue. In most cases, they follow their Imaam, i.e their nafs, taking which the lighter opinion of one of the 4 schools. Further, their definition of 'authentic Sunnah' is that which suits their lifestyle as outlined by their 'scholars' such as Ibn Taymiya, al-Albani, Bin Baz, and Uthaymeen.

They also prey on certain people of society such as:

1. Those Muslims who are undereducated in regards of their Deen
2. Those who have just become a Muslim.
3. Those who are young and wish to compromise their Deen for the sake of Western philosophy and "The American Way."
4. Those who seek a reason (actually, an excuse) for rebelling against their parents and community.

If you notice, many young Salafis/Wahabis (those who reverted to become a Salafi/Wahabi) fall under those 4 catergories.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.
1. SHOW ME ONE person who does not follow his shaykh, whether he is Ask Imam, Sunnipath, Islamonline, or Islamqa.

2. Salafis are not antiMadhabs. They are anti blindly following one man or madhab without understanding why. Most salafis actually follow the Hanbali madhab. A madhab is not a set of opinions of one man anyway.

Read: http://www.fatwaislam.com/fis/index.cfm?scn=fd&ID=22

3. The sahabah followed mujtahids adn this is no different with the salafis.

4. Ibn al-Qayyim, rahimahullaah, said about the prohibitted types of taqleed:

"It is of three types:- Firstly: totally turning away from what Allaah has revealed, but rather being satisfied with the taqleed of one’s for-fathers. Secondly: doing taqleed of someone when you do not know whether that person is from those whose saying can be taken. Thirdly: doing taqleed after the proofs have been established and it becomes apparent that the evidence contradicts the view of the one to whom taqleed is done."

5. The people who follow madhabs do not follow every opinion of Abu Haneefa ra. They follow opinions of him, his disciples and others combined. The usool is what they follow. So there is no difference.
Reply

Z
07-17-2005, 07:32 PM
Asalamu Alaikum

Just read the fatwa bro, and the second paragraph raises an issue.

Thing is, I see a lot of that nowadays [moving from one madhab to another], and yes as silly as it may sound, the people I know who do it say they don't follow a madhab, they're Salafis/Wahabis.
Reply

panIslamist
07-17-2005, 07:51 PM
Tru nigga for me to accept your theory you have to answer two questions?

1. Show me one place in the Quran and Sunnah where the Mushriks claimed that their deities shared powers with Allah.

2. Do you consider directing your form of worship to someone/something other than Allah as Shirk, even if it is powerless?

So even if you could somehow prove to me point 1, you have to prove that 2 is not Shirk.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-17-2005, 08:04 PM
:sl:
The arabs at the time of the Prophet saws were indeed Mushriks even though many of them believed that Allah alone had power over the Universe. The following quote you've provided is something I've seen circulating amongst the ignorant, which has no authentic sources or backing:
Al-Uzzah rules birth, death, marriage, springs, warfare, raids, grain, the Zodiac, the change of the seasons, the course of heavenly bodies, and Venus as the morning star. The many variant spellings of her name include Al Uzzah, al-Uzza, Al ëUzza, Al Uzza, ëUzza, and Uzza. Her titles include The Great One, The Propitious, and The Venus of Mecca.

Al-Uzzahís symbols include an acacia tree, a cluster of acacia trees, three samura palm trees, and the stone in the Ka'aba at Mecca. Green, her sacred color, was adopted by Islam as its sacred color. The acacia is her sacred tree. Grain and Syrian rue, the harmala plant, are also sacred to Al-Uzzah. Granite and meteorites are her sacred stones. Her sacred animals include the cow, lioness, and snake. In her aspect as Mari (also spelled Meri), she is a sea goddess. Meriís title is The Fish, and dolphins are sacred to her.

Invoke Al-Uzzah for fertility, battle, marriage, riches, astrology, oracles, love spells, seasonal magic, the fertility of crops, killing or taming wild beasts, and guidance in adventures. Invoke her as Mari for sea spells, and to protect seafarers. Al Uzzah received blood offerings in ancient times, sacrifices of humans and animals. She was also honored with visitations, pilgrimages to the places where her trees stood, or where her stone stood with a canopy above it.
This quote is not taken from any authoritatve work, instead it is taken from some fool's homemade website!
http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/whit...s/al_uzza.html

The Qur'an presents the true picture:
31:32 When a wave covers them like the canopy (of clouds), they invoke Allâh, making their invocations for Him ONLY.

Therefore, in times of distress, they too called upon Allah ALONE realizing that with Him were the true powers to save them. I encourage you to read Kash Ash-Shubuhat, because all your arguments are refuted therein in great detail.

:sl: 350z
Originally Posted by 350z
An interesting discussion here.

So to clarify, the Salafis/Wahabis are not a sect?
Salafis are those who follow the early Muslims' understanding of Islam. "Wahhabis" is a derogatory label used for followers of Shaykh Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab.

I was under the impression that the Salafis/Wahabis don't follow a madhab.
WHat do you mean by "madhab"? A "madhab" is a set of opinions, interpretations, and rulings of a scholar, that is meant to reflect the Prophet saws's madhab most accurately.

Its not a case of not following a madhab, instead the salafis follow ALL the madhabs. They don't blindly stick to one. By blindly I mean following the opinion of one scholar even when it is proven to be false on a certain issue. Therefore, the salafi follows Imaam Shafi on some points, Imaam Abu Hanifa on others, Imaam Maalik on others, Imaam Hambal on others, and various other scholars like Imaam Tabari, Imaam Thawri, Imaam Layth, Imaam Zayd, Imaam Awza'ee and Imaam Dawud, who all had their own madhabs as well.

The foru madhabs that have survived today have only survived due to intercompetition and "natural selection". Its not because they are divinely ordained.

Please read the following article for more info:
http://islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1812

I also understand that they follow their desires like when it comes to a certain issue, they check for which of the 4 schools have the strongest daleel and then make their minds up about the issue.
That's not called following one's desires buddy. That's called following the strongest "daleel". If one opinion is stronger than the other, a Muslim is supposed to take the strongest opinion not blindly stick to the weaker opinion!

In most cases, they follow their Imaam, i.e their nafs, taking which the lighter opinion of one of the 4 schools. Further, their definition of 'authentic Sunnah' is that which suits their lifestyle as outlined by their 'scholars' such as Ibn Taymiya, al-Albani, Bin Baz, and Uthaymeen.
There's no evidence for these statements and you should be warned about spreading lies and misconceptions. The sunnah is agreed upon by both salafis and blind-followers - it consists of the Prophet's sayings, actions, approvals, and things he abstained from.

They also prey on certain people of society such as:
It is all false. Do back up your wild assertions with some facts. The true path of Islam is preached to everyone.

If you notice, many young Salafis/Wahabis (those who reverted to become a Salafi/Wahabi) fall under those 4 catergories.
Really? Which one do I fall under?

Do correct me if I'm wrong.
Done.

:w:
Reply

Z
07-17-2005, 08:48 PM
Asalamu Alaikum

You seem to have taken it pretty personal brother, I didn't mean no harm.

Anyway, thanks for correcting the understanding I had about Salafis/Wahabis.
Reply

tru_nigga
07-17-2005, 11:28 PM
First of all i did say that the arab pagans did believe that God is to be called upon in times of great peril. Let see what is shirk. Shirk is when u believe that God is either too busy or too burdened to run the affairs of this world. meaning, say you are working in a company. And the CEO is God. You as a humble employee can not approach the CEO for every matter. Yes the CEO is the head and the supreme(Allah) but you do not go to Him for every matter. He has better things to do. So you go to your imediate managers for the routine things, and you go to allat, al uzza and al manat for more serious things . Now if there is fire thats burning the warehouse only then will you call the CEO for help. The arabs believed in the same thing. Only when you are about to be ingulfed in the strorm do you then pray to the Al Mighty, otherwise there are other gods and goddesess to take care of you. This is shirk!

Now never has there been any mushriks in history who would proclaim that God alone controlled the affairs of this world.

Now as for for what has been said concerning that asking any other than God for something is shirk, well there are many hadiths where a person will aproach the prophet and ask him to pray for a certain thing. Is this shirk! Why did the person walk up to the prophet and asked the prophet to pray for something if he can do it himself. This is not shirk! Shirk is when u believe that there are other dieties who can do things for you, due to their divine powers, that in reality only God can do. Like believing al manat is the goddess of fate and fortune. What does that mean, she is the goddess of fate and fortune. It means she can control fate and fortune. Now wait a minute, only God controls that. Well the mushriks did not believe that. They attached partners with God not in their worship BUT IN THEIR BELIEF THAT THESE gods HAD CONTROL over the universe. God alone is not capable, He is either too busy or the universe is too much for Him, He needs help. Or He is too distant. This is shirk!
Reply

panIslamist
07-18-2005, 06:23 AM
From: Categories Of Tawheed, Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips

The pagan Makkans all knew that Allaah was their creator, sustainer, their Lord and Master yet that knowledge did not make them Muslims according to God. In fact, Allaah said:

"Most of them do not believe in Allaah except while joining partners to Him." Surah Yusuf, 12:106.

Mujaahid's[1] commentary on this verse was as follows: "Their belief in Allaah represented by their statement, 'Allaah created us, provides for us and takes our lives', did not stop them from worshipping other gods along with Allaah."Collected by Ibn Jareer at-Tabaree.

From the previously mentioned verses, it is clear that the Kuffaar (disbelievers) knew of Allaah's sovereignty, dominion and power. In fact, they used to faithfully devote various types of worship to Him like Hajj, charity, animal sacrifices, vows and even prayers in times of dire necessity and calamity. They even used to claim that they were following the religion of Abraham. Because of that claim, Allaah revealed the verse:

"Abraham was not a Jew nor was he a Christian, but (he) was a true Muslim and not among those who joined partners with Allaah." Surah Aal'Imraan, 3:67.

Some pagan Makkans even believed in the Resurrection and the Judgement and others in predestination (Qadar). Ample evidence of their belief can be found in pre-Islamic poetry. For example, the poet Zuhayr was reported to have said:

"It is either delayed, placed in a book and saved for the Day of Judgement or hastened and avenged."
'Antarah was quoted as saying:

"O 'Ebil to where will you run from death, if my Lord in the sky has destined it?"[2]
In spite of the Makkans' confessions of Tawheed and their knowledge of Allaah, Allaah classified them as disbelievers (Kuffaar) and pagans (Mushrikoon) simply because they worshipped other gods along with their worship of Allaah.

The gravest sin is Shirk, the worship of others instead of Allaah or along with Allaah. In Surah al-Faatihah, which every Muslim is required to recite in his or her prayers at least seventeen times daily, verse four reads, "You alone do we worship and from You alone do we seek help". A clear statement that all forms of worship should only be directed to the One who can respond, Allaah. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) confirmed the concept of unity of worship saying, "If you ask in prayer ask only Allaah, and if you seek help, seek it only from Allaah."Reported by Ibn 'Abbaas and collected by at-Tirmidhi. See An-Nawawi's Forty Hadith, (English Trans.), p.68.

And, Allaah, Most Great and Glorious, said:

'Do not worship besides Allaah that which can not help or harm you."Surah al-Anbiyaa, 21:66.

THIS REFUTES YOUR THEORY THAT THE POWERLESS CAN BE INVOKED

"Those on whom you call besides Allaah are only slaves like yourselves."Surah al-A'raaf, 7:194.

If someone prays to the Prophet (saws), to so-called saints, Jinns or angels asking for help or asking them to request help from Allaah for them, they have also committed Shirk. The concept of "Ghaus-i-Azam" (al-Ghawth al-A'dHam), a title given by the ignorant to 'Abdul-Qaadir al-Jeelaanee, is also an expression of Shirk in this form of Tawheed. The title literally means "the greatest source of rescue; the one most able to save someone from danger" and such a description only belongs to Allaah. When misfortune occurs, some people call on 'Abdul-Qaadir by this title seeking his aid and protection even though Allaah has already said:

"If Allaah allows harm to befall you none can. remove it except Him." Surah al-An'aam, 6:17.

According to the Qur'aan, when the Makkans were questioned about directing their prayers to their idols, they answered,

"We only worship them so that they may bring us closer to Allaah." Surah az-Zumar, 39:3.

The idols were only used as intermediaries yet Allaah called them pagans for their practice. Those among Muslims who insist on praying to other than Allaah would do well to reflect on this fact.

READ THAT VERSE ABOVE AGAIN AND AGAIN. The MUSHRIKS DO NOT WORSHIP OTHERS BECAUSE THEY THINK THE OTHERS CAN HELP THEM. THEY WORSHIP THEM BECAUSE THEY WANT TO GET CLOSER TO ALLAH. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT PEOPLE WHO INVOKE HUMANS DO.

[1] Mujaahid ibn Jubayr al-Makkee (642-722) was Ibn 'Abbaas' most outstanding student.

[2] Quoted in Sulaymaan ibn 'Abdul-Wahhaab's Tayseer al-'Azeez al-Hameed, (Beirut: al-Maktab al-Islaamee, 2nd., 1970), p.34.

So the points derived from this article are three:
1. Do not worship besides Allaah that which can not help or harm you. This includes anyone who you think has power and without (powerless).
2. If you worship others instead of Allaah or along with Allaah, then this is SHIRK.
3. The Mushriks only worshiped others besides Allah so that they may bring themselves closer to Allaah.


Now if you really want to answer my argument Show me from the Quran and SUnnah where this is different.
Reply

tru_nigga
07-18-2005, 06:34 AM
Akhee, i presented my case. Unless you have evidence regarding what the arab pagans believed i do not wish to continue. I deal with facts.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-18-2005, 07:34 PM
:sl: 350z
Originally Posted by 350z
You seem to have taken it pretty personal brother, I didn't mean no harm.

Anyway, thanks for correcting the understanding I had about Salafis/Wahabis.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. Please forgive me if I was harsh. I just got a little irritated because you made statements instead of questions, but don't worry, no harm done, insha'Allah.

:sl: Tru nigga
Originally Posted by tru_nigga
Let see what is shirk.
I agree this is the core of the issue.
Shirk is when u believe that God is either too busy or too burdened to run the affairs of this world.
This is not true at all. As I suspected, an incorrect understanding of shirk was the root of the argument. What you have mentioned is a type of Shirk known as Shirk in Asmaa was-Sifaat, specifically shirk by denial of one of Allah's attributes - namely that He is omnipotent and in full control.

Briefly, Here are the categories of Shirk in relation to the Categories of Tawheed:

1. Shirk in Rububiyyah - it may occur in two ways...
A - Shirk by Denial - This can consist of any of the following forms of Shirk:
i) Denying that creation has a Creator. This is the belief was the belief of Pharoah who tought himself to eb the god of his people, alone. This is also an example of Atheism.

ii) Denying the attributes of Allah's Lordship (rububiyyah),i.e. denying the extent and strength of His power and His role in the universe. An example is Deism.

iii) Denying His rights that He is entitled to by perfection of His nature. Denying His seperate and supreme existence from creation. This is an example of Patheism.

B - Shirk by Affirmation - This occurs when one affirms the powers of Lordship to those other than Allah, like believing that other "gods", Prophets, saints, idols, angels, etc. have power over certain aspects of Creation. Henotheism is related to this type of Shirk.
2. Shirk in Uluhiyyah - This involves directing any acts of worship to those other than Allah. Allah SWT informs us to pray to Him with Ikhlaas, or sincerity, singling Him out in worship. Examples of this type of Shirk are numerous - it includes Trinitarian Christianity, which directs most worship to Jesus while still affirming the existence of God 'the father'. It includes many types of polytheism, it includes the veneration of Saints by extreme Sufis, the veneration of statues by Buddhists, and it includes the worship of the Jaahiliyyah arabs. These groups never hardly worship Allah, and constantly direct their worship elsewhere.

3. Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat - Asmaa was Sifaat are the beautiful names and attributes of Allah. Shirk in this category occurs in the following ways:
A - Shirk by comparing Allah to creation - this occurs when one believes that Allah has attributes or qualities normally associated with creation, like He gets tired, or hungry or something else that is not befitting of Allah.

B - Shirk by comparing creation to Allah - this occurs when one gives any part of creation an attribute that belongs to Allah. For example, claiming that a certain person is all-knowing or all-seeing is this type of Shirk. Or if someone claims that they resemble Allah (Naoodhobillah).

I hope that there will be no more confusion on this issue now, insha'Allah. There are other ways of catergorising the types of Shirk, but I have chosen the most comprehensive and easiest to understand system. The categories in this system are mentioned explicitly in the Qur'an:

Shirk in Rububiyyah
34:22 Say: "Call upon other (gods) whom ye fancy, besides Allah. They have no power,- not the weight of an atom,- in the heavens or on earth: No (sort of) share have they therein, nor is any of them a helper to Allah.

In this verse, Shirk Ar-Rububiyyah is mentioned since Allah negates them having any control over the universe.

Shirk in Uluhiyyah
18:110 So whoever is hopeful for the meeting of his Lord - let him do righteous deeds, and not associate (yushrik) anyone in the worship of his Lord

In this verse, Allah swt warns human beings about directing acts of worship to those other than Allah swt.

Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat
18:26 And He does not share (yushrik) in His legislation with anyone.

112:4 And there is none like unto Him


Here Allah swt mentions attributes that are unique to Him, thus negating any Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat. The Creator is unlike the creation.,

Now we shoudl be able to understand the remaining discussion on Shirk better...

meaning, say you are working in a company. And the CEO is God. You as a humble employee can not approach the CEO for every matter. Yes the CEO is the head and the supreme(Allah) but you do not go to Him for every matter. He has better things to do.
By stating that He has better things to do, you deny His attribute of All-Seeing and All-Knowing, and answering every sincere Dua. This is Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat.

So you go to your imediate managers for the routine things, and you go to allat, al uzza and al manat for more serious things .
By going to these others you commit several types of Shirk. First, you commit Shirk in Uluhiyyah by directing acts of worship to other than Allah. Secondly, you commit Shirk in Asmaa was Sifaat by attributing Allah's powers to creation. Third, if you believe that these intermediaries possess real power and lordship, then you commit Shirk in Rububiyyah as well.

Now if there is fire thats burning the warehouse only then will you call the CEO for help. The arabs believed in the same thing.
The arabs of Jaahiliyyah certainly committed Shirk in Uluhiyyah and Asmaa was Sifaat, but many of them did not extend to the level of Shirk in Rubuiyyah as you are trying to imply. They realized that their other deities had no real power and that is why they did not call out to them in times of distress.

But the shirk of the modern mushrikeen is WORSE than that of the jaahiliyyah arabs for the following reason:

The modern Mushrikeen call upon other than Allah swt in both times of ease AND in times of distress, while the jaahiliyyah arbas only called upon other than Allah in times of ease. I can give you many examples of this. One of the followers of the Rifa'i tariqah, Muhammad Abi Al-Huda Afandi wrote:
Any person who is in a difficult situation and needs a desire fulfilled, or finds a goal hard to achieve, or has a loan (that he must repay), or is in prison or has been wronged by a tyrant, then let him...turn himself, whilst standing, to the east, so that he faces Basrah (in Iraq), towards the garden of Umm Ma'bad, which is the final resting place of the Great Saviour, of the descendants of Hasan (grandson of the Prophet saws), my master, Al-Sayyid Ahmad Rifa'i (the founder of the Rifa'i Tariqah). Let him then call out with humiliation and determination: 'O mediator of those who seek! O Kabah of those who do Tawaf! O Saviour of all Creation!...O Controller of matters in life and Death!...Save me!
This is clear Shirk even in times of distress, while the Arabs only did this in times of ease and in times of distress they would recognize Allah swt as the most powerful.

There are millions of examples if you read books of the sufis like Jami Karamat Al-Awliyah compiled by Yusuf An-Nabhani.

Now never has there been any mushriks in history who would proclaim that God alone controlled the affairs of this world.
In fact there are. This is the belief of the Christians, the Zoroastrians and the Hindus and even the Jaahiliyah arabs - all are still Mushriks. This is in fact the original belief of many mythologies. For example, in Aztec mythology it was Tloquenahuaque who was the supreme controller of the universe, but they worshipped many other gods as well. For the Mayas it was Hunab-ku.

You seem to think that Shirk Ar-Rububiyyah is the only type of Shirk, yet as I have demonstrated before, this is false.

Now as for for what has been said concerning that asking any other than God for something is shirk, well there are many hadiths where a person will aproach the prophet and ask him to pray for a certain thing.
First produce the hadith.

Second, asking another living person to make Dua for you is not shirk. Making Dua to that person is.

Shirk is when u believe that there are other dieties who can do things for you, due to their divine powers, that in reality only God can do.
You have a very limited understanding of Shirk. May I ask how in-depth your studies are on this issue? Please read the categories of shirk already posted.

It should all be crystal clear, now that we have defined shirk.

:w:
Reply

tru_nigga
07-19-2005, 04:47 AM
I have said that i will not continue this debate untill someone gives me facts regarding what the arab pagans aqidah was. I don't want people to interpret verses from the koran that i believe is mis interpreted, i want facts regarding what the arab pagans worshipped. Please , i am not interested in cut and paste of saudi and saudi trained scholars.
Reply

panIslamist
07-19-2005, 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by tru_nigga
I have said that i will not continue this debate untill someone gives me facts regarding what the arab pagans aqidah was. I don't want people to interpret verses from the koran that i believe is mis interpreted, i want facts regarding what the arab pagans worshipped. Please , i am not interested in cut and paste of saudi and saudi trained scholars.
39 3. Surely, the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allâh only. And those who take Auliyâ' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allâh." Verily, Allâh will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allâh guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever.

See tafseer here: http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=39&tid=44940

Find me one tafseer that shows that this ayah is not revealed regarding the idolators.
Reply

Sheikh Haroon
07-19-2005, 11:55 AM
Salaam tru_nigga

I have said that i will not continue this debate untill someone gives me facts regarding what the arab pagans aqidah was. I don't want people to interpret verses from the koran that i believe is mis interpreted, i want facts regarding what the arab pagans worshipped. Please , i am not interested in cut and paste of saudi and saudi trained scholars.
With all due respect, why dont you go and do some of your own research? Since everyone elses' efforts are going to scrutinised by your ever true retorts, it may benefit you to learn for yourself for once.

Regards
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-19-2005, 08:03 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by tru_nigga
I have said that i will not continue this debate untill someone gives me facts regarding what the arab pagans aqidah was.
First of all, there was clear signs that you did not understand shirk, so I've cleared up that confusion. Without understanding shirk you cannot tell what is shirk and what isn't.

Second, I provided a brief summary of the pre-islamic arab aqeedah, although insha'Allah I will provide you the details you want.

I don't want people to interpret verses from the koran that i believe is mis interpreted,
If I have misinterpreted any verses I challenge you to expose the misinterpretation.

i want facts regarding what the arab pagans worshipped. Please , i am not interested in cut and paste of saudi and saudi trained scholars.
Can you show me what I cut and pasted? I typed up that information myself.

Since you have asked about the beliefs of the pre-islamic arabs, I will respond in this thread:
http://islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=3713

:w:
Reply

panIslamist
07-19-2005, 10:39 PM
:sl:

I think its fair to say that the argumetn from a Islamic perspective is clear and there is no more room for arguement. I suggest this thread be closed down unless the "falsehood" is exposed.
Reply

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