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mariam.
02-01-2007, 03:56 PM
Praise Be to Allah Alone, No a partner in His dominion, To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens And the earth,

It is who sent down the gospel and Torah, The lord and Sovereign of every thing, The Omniscient of his creatures

He compasses round the secret and clandestine matters behind any thing.

Whoever contemplates the Holy Quran, Sura Al-Imran in particular, especially the Divine addressing to the people of the Book ( the Christian and the Jews ), He will find that " the Divine addressing "discloses their attempts to counterfeit facts and deceive people by hiding the true facts and leading people astray by keeping these people away from the true facts, In addition, he will know how much those people are keen on taking people away from the irrefutable truth and the straight path.

On reading the research entitled " The prophet Mohammed in the Torah and the Gospel " written by Dr Mohammed Abdal-Khalik Shrebah and published on this site, I was overwhelmed by a strange feeling towards the attempt of the Christian to distort the word "Baca" in the Holy Bible, the English version " ( New king James version )to the word Bokaa in the Arabic version, which is different in meaningit means wailing.
Compare the two texts:
(Blessed are they that dwell in thy house. they will be still praising you, blessed is the man whose strength is in you, whose heart is set on pilgrimage as they pass through the valley of Baca make it a well)
Here is the literal translation of the Arabic version, you will see two important words changed:
Blessed are they whose strength is in you whose heart is set on your house (N.B the word pilgrimage is removed ) as they pass through the valley of crying (N.B the word Baca is replaced with the word Bokaa that mans crying ) make it a well.
Unless this word " Baca " had been –and still is - strong evidence of the Divine origin of Islam, they wouldn't have made this unsuccessful attempt which has increased our belief and adherence to Islam.

Though in the English copy, the statement focuses on the holiness of the place " Baca" and its coherence to pilgrimage, we find that the word pilgrimage has been replace with Bokaa in the Arabic copy. The word Bokaa means crying.

It is clear that the reason behind changing the word " Baca ", which is another name of Makka to the word Bokaa and removing any indication about the pilgrimage is that they wanted to keep away the Arab Christians, who hears the Holy Quran daily recited, specially Sura Al-I-Imran, which mentions the word Baca, clearly from being affected. just consider the following Quranic verse, Allah Says in the Holy Quran :

" The first House ( of worship ) Appointed for men Was That at Baca full of blessing And of guidance for all kinds of beings. In It are Signs Manifest ; ( for example ), The Station of Abraham, whoever enters it Attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty Men owe to God, Those who can afford The journey : but if any Deny faith, God stands not in need of any of His creatures."

The word Baca and pilgrimage is clear Strangely enough, Though the word "Baca" will not mean any thing to the westerner Christian, who does not listen to Holy Quran nor understand the Arabic language, they have removed the word from the other refined English versions of the Gospel

Now, The question is " Are there any signs or hints in Holy Quran about this particular interpolation? We will leave the answer to Sura AL -Imran, whose Holy name indicates that it speaks about the people of the Book. This verse takes place in the middle of the addressing of God to them. In This verse, Allah asks them to bring the Torah and recite it if they are veracious.

God, showing that they are not veracious, has threatened whoever tries to invent a lie and attribute it to Him and describes them as unjust wrong-doer, and by this, God gives the evidence of their continuous shameful deeds concerning displacing the words in their Holy Books.

After that, God mentions this axial verse No. "96", in which the word Baca is mentioned. So the Amazing indication of the place of this verse, which is not alien to the Quranic tissue is completely clear. It shows a Divine creativity and a miracle of His eternal knowledge of the unseen Which is concerned with their attempt of displacing " This word " which Allah mentioned with extreme accuracy in Holy Quran. God mentioned the word that begins with the Arabic letter "ب" which is pronounced like the English letter "B". God didn't mention it with the letter "م " as in مكة and this proves that God, The glorious and most high, is omniscient and compasses round all what they do. No letters, nothing smaller than letters, nothing bigger than can be hidden from Him in any Heavenly Book, as God, the Almighty, himself revealed the Holy books, the Bible, the Gospel and the Psalms and all the books that were revealed to prophets so, we can now understand the beginning of Sura Al-imran:

"A.L.M God ! There is no God But He ,-the Living, The self-Subsisting Eternal. It is He Who sent down To thee(step by step), in truth, the Book Confirming what went before it : And He sent down the Law (Of Moses ) and the Gospel ( of Jesus )before this, As a guide to mankind And He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong "
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mariam.
02-06-2007, 06:52 PM
Psalm 84

1 How lovely is your dwelling place,
O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints,
for the courts of the LORD;
my heart and my flesh cry out
for the living God.

3 Even the sparrow has found a home,
and the swallow a nest for herself,
where she may have her young—
a place near your altar,
O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.

4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house;
they are ever praising you.
Selah

5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.

6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca,
they make it a place of springs;
the autumn rains also cover it with pools. [b]

7 They go from strength to strength,
till each appears before God in Zion.

8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty;
listen to me, O God of Jacob.
Selah

9 Look upon our shield, [c] O God;
look with favor on your anointed one.

10 Better is one day in your courts
than a thousand elsewhere;
I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God
than dwell in the tents of the wicked.

11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield;
the LORD bestows favor and honor;
no good thing does he withhold
from those whose walk is blameless.

12 O LORD Almighty,
blessed is the man who trusts in you
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eagleye
02-06-2007, 07:29 PM
Baca is the holy city? where is it?
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Link
02-06-2007, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by eagleye
Baca is the holy city? where is it?
it's mecca. Becca = Mecca.
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lavikor201
02-06-2007, 09:27 PM
Actually the verse says:
Transgressors in the valley of weeping make it into a fountain; also with blessings they enwrap [their] Teacher.
(Psalms 84:7)
http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...showrashi=true
The "christian versions" may be different but the Tanakh is the translation of the Hebrew while the christian versions are a big mess.

The word "Baca" means weeping.

The commentary for this verse is this:

Transgressors in the valley of weeping - Those who transgress Your law behold, they are in the depth of Gehinnom (Jewish hell/purgoatory *different from the islamic and xtian view of this place) with weeping and wailing.

make it into a fountain - with the tears of their eyes.

also with blessings they enwrap [their] Teacher - They bless and thank His name and say, “He judged us fairly, and His judgment is true.” (Another explanation: Shem Ephraim) And the one who taught us to follow the good way enwraps us with blessings, but we did not obey him.
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mariam.
02-06-2007, 10:34 PM
The "christian versions" may be different but the Tanakh is the translation of the Hebrew while the christian versions are a big mess.
what is the Tanakh? and why the christian versions are a big mess?
isn't the old testament is the Torah that you belive in? or there is a differents? If yes why?

The word "Baca" means weeping.
yes you can translate it like that from Arabic to English .. but the torah was writen for the first time in (old Hebrew) isn't it?
so why it's still like that in the English christian versions and some of the arabic versions too?
make search for it the bible you can find it easily:

www.biblegateway.com
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mariam.
02-06-2007, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by eagleye
Baca is the holy city? where is it?
welcome eagleye:

Arabic Makkah, ancient Bakkah, city in western Saudi Arabia, located in the Sirāt Mountains, inland from the Red Sea coast. It is the holiest of Muslim cities.
Muhammad, the prophet of Islām, was born in Mecca, and it is toward this religious centre that Muslims turn five times daily in prayer. All devout Muslims attempt a pilgrimage, or hajj, to Mecca at least once in their lifetime. Because it is sacred, only Muslims are allowed to enter the city.

thank you for your reply .. If you have any other Q Iam yours
peace
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eagleye
02-06-2007, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Link
it's mecca. Becca = Mecca.
baca is mecca ??? very odd
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eagleye
02-06-2007, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Link
it's mecca. Becca = Mecca.
you identify mecca with baca in the David's songs (quite odd)
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eagleye
02-06-2007, 11:01 PM
it is like identify Danish with the Dan (one of 12 Israelites tribes)
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lavikor201
02-06-2007, 11:32 PM
what is the Tanakh? and why the christian versions are a big mess?
isn't the old testament is the Torah that you belive in? or there is a differents? If yes why?
The Tanakh is the Hebrew Bible. It is very different from the Old Testament since King james and other christians wanted to make the Bible sound more "poetic".

The Tanakh, is the direct Hebrew to English best as possible.

yes you can translate it like that from Arabic to English .. but the torah was writen for the first time in (old Hebrew) isn't it?
so why it's still like that in the English christian versions and some of the arabic versions too?
make search for it the bible you can find it easily:
You can find it that way in the "christian" Bible but that does not mean it is correct.

"Baca" in th verse refers to the the Valley of the Weeping which not in Mecca. Here is an explanation:

Problem:

This Psalm describes pilgrims ascending to the house of G-d and in verse six tells us that they pass through the valley of Baca. In Q 3:96 the word Bakka appears as a name for Mecca. They identify the well in Psalm 84:6 with the well Zam-zam in Mecca which has ritual significance during the Hajj. On the strength of this, Moslems assert that this Psalm is a description of pilgrims going to Mecca for the Hajj. The argument that stems from this assertion is that because the Psalm was written considerably before the time of Christ, this would show that Mecca was a center of pilgrimage to the true God long before the time of Muhammad, which would hence support Moslem claims that Abraham founded the Ka'bah.

Solution:

  • The word Baca occurs rarely in the Bible; it is also found in 2 Samuel 5:23,24 and 1 Chronicles 14:14,15 where it identifies a valley in which David fought the Philistines. The word Baka describes a bush, probably a Balsam bush but translated in the AV as a mulberry tree.
  • In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. This is to the southwest of Jerusalem and forms an approach route to the city. The Philistines encamped in Rephaim to attack Jerusalem (2 Samuel 5:17,18), which shows that it is not in Arabia and David attacked Philistines who were encamped in the valley of Rephaim from the Valley of Baca (2 Sam. 5:23,24; 1 Chron. 14:14,15). Therefore the valley of Baka is near Jerusalem. It is clearly not in Arabia.
  • Psalm 84:6 describes a well made by the pilgrims. The well Zam-zam in Mecca was not made by pilgrims.
  • The valley is filled with pools of water by the rains. Mecca is very dry all the year round; it virtually never finds itself surrounded by pools of standing water left by rains.
  • The end of the pilgrimage is Zion (v. 7). This is, of course, Jerusalem and not Mecca.
  • The Psalm is in praise of the house of God (the temple) in Jerusalem. Verses 5-7 describe the last part of the ascent of pilgrims to this house; the particular pilgrims ascend from the south west through the valley of Baca.
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mariam.
02-07-2007, 09:16 PM
Valley of the Weeping
Iam never heard about place with this name before!
do u mean the wall of the weeping ?

The word Baca occurs rarely in the Bible; it is also found in 2 Samuel 5:23,24 and 1 Chronicles 14:14,15
when I make search at : www.biblegateway.com
I found only one result .. for this word (baca) !!

The valley is filled with pools of water by the rains. Mecca is very dry all the year round; it virtually never finds itself surrounded by pools of standing water left by rains
I think you are wrong ..
read this :
By Encyclopædia Britannica Article:
Mecca Climate:
Because of its relatively low-lying location, Mecca is threatened by seasonal flash floods despite the low amount of annual precipitation. There are less than five inches (130 millimetres) of rainfall during the year.
The Psalm is in praise of the house of God (the temple) in Jerusalem. Verses 5-7 describe the last part of the ascent of pilgrims to this house; the particular pilgrims ascend from the south west through the valley of Baca.
the pslam don't tell where this house is .. why we can't said that this house is Ka'bah?
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ManchesterFolk
02-07-2007, 09:24 PM
the pslam don't tell where this house is .. why we can't said that this house is Ka'bah?
They go from strength to strength, every one of them appeareth before God in Zion.

http://bible.cc/psalms/84-7.htm

Do you happend to know where Zion is?

when I make search at : www.biblegateway.com
I found only one result .. for this word (baca) !!
Because the word in Hebrew is always translated as "Valley of the Weeping" and has nothing to do with Mecca. Example: The Hebrew word for Night is "Laiyla". Now pretend there is a verse that says the "Valley of Laiyla". Laiyla is refering to the "Valley of the Night" not a city with the name "lila" for example.

there's No well in Psalm 84:6 ! if you have another version please write it to me with proof.
Passing through the valley of Weeping, they make it a place of springs. Yes, the autumn rain covers it with blessings.

Iam never heard about place with this name before!
do u mean the wall of the weeping ?
Baca means Weeping. The context of it in Hebrew, it is the Valley of the Weeping, which is in reference to a place in modern day Israel.
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mariam.
02-08-2007, 10:43 PM
Hi ManchesterFolk .. are you Jewish!!

They go from strength to strength, every one of them appeareth before God in Zion.
Do you happend to know where Zion is ?
I know where zion is .. but my understanding to this verses is different
I need more time to study this verses carefully, then I will write about this point soon inshallah.

Passing through the valley of Weeping, they make it a place of springs. Yes, the autumn rain covers it with blessings.
they make it a place of springs;the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
they are so different!

Passing through the valley of Weeping, they make it a place of springs.
I see another version .. write this word like that (spring) singular!

Baca means Weeping. The context of it in Hebrew, it is the Valley of the Weeping, which is in reference to a place in modern day Israel
there is No place in modern day Israel with this name .. but there is a wall with this name.

I have a few point :
*every one knows that Zion is a mountain or a high place .. so how you can say that the valley of baca and Zion are in the same place or they are one.
*also Jerusalem is a high place
*so I think that valley of baca and Zion are a different places in this verses.
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rebelishaulman
02-08-2007, 11:43 PM
I have a few point :
*every one knows that Zion is a mountain or a high place .. so how you can say that the valley of baca and Zion are in the same place or they are one.
*also Jerusalem is a high place
*so I think that valley of baca and Zion are a different places in this verses.
You can think whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you are correct. The Tanakh referring to "Baca" is not speaking of Mecca at all.
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mariam.
02-09-2007, 11:39 AM
You can think whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you are correct. The Tanakh referring to "Baca" is not speaking of Mecca at all.
either you can think and believe whatever you want
God give us the mind to think and give us the heart to love .. so always be sure that your life is for God.
take care of yourself
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snakelegs
02-09-2007, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by mariam.
there is No place in modern day Israel with this name .. but there is a wall with this name.
isn't it called "western wall"?
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eagleye
02-10-2007, 12:04 AM
I'm curious mariam, are you proselytize the bible to the Muslims?
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mariam.
02-10-2007, 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
isn't it called "western wall"?
yes it's, In Hebrew Ha-Kotel Ha-Ma'aravi , also called Wailing Wall ,It's in the Old City of Jerusalem, a place of prayer and pilgrimage sacred to the Jewish people.
and the moslems called it Al Buraq Wall.
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mariam.
02-10-2007, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by eagleye
I'm curious mariam, are you proselytize the bible to the Muslims?
Hi eagleye, Im sorry;I didn't understand exactly what you mean by this Q.

but I want to tell some thing ..
God said in the Holy Quran:"The apostle believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His apostles; We make no difference between any of His apostles; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.(2:285-286)
we are as moslems believe in Torah, Gospel and Quran .. that's what our lord order us to do.
but we all agree that Torah and Gospel were edit by Humans before Islam,
In the other side we can't refuse that the Bible (Torah,Gospel) still have alot of truth.
God said in the Holy Quran:"And if the followers of the Book had believed and guarded (against evil) We would certainly have covered their evil deeds and We would certainly have made them enter gardens of bliss
And if they had kept up the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do"(5:65-66)

I hope that my reply answer your Q .. If you have any Iam yours
peace
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eagleye
02-10-2007, 08:48 PM
your premise accepted by Muslims only. (as I witnessing)
that's why I ask.
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mariam.
02-11-2007, 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by eagleye
your premise accepted by Muslims only. (as I witnessing)
that's why I ask.
my premise accepted by who seek for truth ..

peace
Reply

eagleye
02-11-2007, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by mariam.
my premise accepted by who seek for truth ..

peace
via presumption???

peace
Reply

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