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Idris
02-02-2007, 07:17 PM
:sl:

"When we study Europe's Middle Ages, we seldom include Spain (at least not until after the "reconquest"). Our libraries abound with books on the Middle Ages, but try to find in any of them a single word about daily life and customs in Spain. It is as if later historians, in order to justify a uniquely "European history", ignored the fact that a vibrant and brilliant civilization created by "Others"—by Arabs, by Muslims, by Jews—by brown and black people—not only existed in Europe, but without whose contributions the region could not have become what it did. When we talk about "Europe's" Renassiance, we never think of its beginnings in Spain several centuries before it reached Italy. It's as if we lopped off a good 1000 years of history—or at least amputated it from Europe. Nothing could be farther from the truth."
From the introduction to A Medieval Banquet in the Alhambra Palace, Audrey Shabbas, editor, AWAIR, 1991.
I suppose the debt that the West owes to Islam in the realm of science would be something which the present generation should be made aware of, because science is so central to life in Western society. And if people are aware of the roots of science, and the evolution of science, the scientific method, for instance, which is so central to scientific inquiry, if people become aware of this, then I think the attitude towards Islam would also change.

Your views

:w:
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Keltoi
02-02-2007, 08:22 PM
The roots of the scientific method go back to ancient Greece, but the Age of Enlightenment and the writings of Francis Bacon and Rene Descarte truly had the most impact on starting the Scientific Revolution. I'm not sure what "debt" you are referring to exactly, and it isn't specified in your post.
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- Qatada -
02-02-2007, 08:27 PM
:salamext:


Akhi, we don't do any work to please anyone besides Allaah. So the reward is with Him, the All Rich, insha'Allaah. :)
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Idris
02-02-2007, 08:46 PM
The roots of the scientific method go back to ancient Greece, but the Age of Enlightenment and the writings of Francis Bacon and Rene Descarte truly had the most impact on starting the Scientific Revolution. I'm not sure what "debt" you are referring to exactly, and it isn't specified in your post.
Then I say debt I don't mean money... I am sure if you read the quote at the top you will understand what I mean by "Debt". As for Francis Bacon and Rene Descarte their age was not called the Age of Enlightenment but called the age of Renaissance and if you read this quote maybe you will realize were they got their Enlightenment from.

When we talk about "Europe's" Renassiance, we never think of its beginnings in Spain several centuries before it reached Italy.
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Keltoi
02-03-2007, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
Then I say debt I don't mean money... I am sure if you read the quote at the top you will understand what I mean by "Debt". As for Francis Bacon and Rene Descarte their age was not called the Age of Enlightenment but called the age of Renaissance and if you read this quote maybe you will realize were they got their Enlightenment from.
You are correct, the Enlightenment was John Locke and Thomas Hobbes, among others. I mislabled that era.

As for your quote, I'm not sure how that backs up anything. It doesn't specify what was supposedly happening in Spain. Could you find some way to elaborate on what contribution from Spain we are all supposedly overlooking?
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SilentObserver
02-03-2007, 10:42 PM
A claim that some muslims occassionally make that is rubbish. The claim suggests that major sciences and maths came from muslims. This has been picked apart many times. Yes, there have been major contributions by scholars that were muslims, but no more than greeks, indians, romans, etc. Much came out of Babylon and Persia, like other regions.
I don't say this to disrespect islam, only to say that 'let's keep it honest'.
Muslim scholars played their part just like others, but the west owes islam nothing.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-03-2007, 10:50 PM
Muslim Spain gathered and preserved the intellectual content of ancient Greek and Roman civilization, it also interpreted and expanded upon that civilization, and made a vital contribution of its own in so many fields of human endeavour. Muslims do not deny contributions of other civilizations.
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Keltoi
02-03-2007, 10:55 PM
The only "debt" I think the West owes Islam is the preservation of Greek and Roman writings. That was indeed a good thing, and without that alot of ancient philosophy and worldview would have been lost forever.
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SilentObserver
02-03-2007, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Muslim Spain gathered and preserved the intellectual content of ancient Greek and Roman civilization, it also interpreted and expanded upon that civilization, and made a vital contribution of its own in so many fields of human endeavour.
Very true.

Muslims do not deny contributions of other civilizations.
Some do. Some claim that muslims contributed a majority of this content. Simply not true. A large amount yes, but certainly not anything like a majority.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-04-2007, 01:41 AM
And about the Renaissance. The Islamic Cvilization basically sewed the seed for its start.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-04-2007, 03:16 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The only "debt" I think the West owes Islam is the preservation of Greek and Roman writings. That was indeed a good thing, and without that alot of ancient philosophy and worldview would have been lost forever.
That "only" debt isn't just a small one either. It opened ways for many things. And some people who got credit for things, Muslims had done so many years before.


Many works of Muslims were translated into other languages. Many Muslim names were latinized as well. Ever heard of Avicenna, Achernar, Acrab?
Do you know where Algebra is derived from? From Al Jabr. There are many things that people fail to see. As much as people think nothing is owed, that is truly rubbish. We are taught that in the 17th century, the pendulum was developed by Galileo during his teenage years. He noticed a chandelier swaying as it was being blown by the wind. As a result, he went home and invented the pendulum. The pendulum was discovered by Ibn Yunus al-Masri during the 10th century, who was the first to study and document its oscillatory motion. Its value for use in clocks was introduced by Muslim physicists during the 15th century.

I don't want to start an argument. But before anyones decides to criticise without proper research, it's better not to say anything.


Peace :)
Reply

NobleMuslimUK
02-04-2007, 06:52 AM
I think the biggest debt the west owes Islam is Muslims immigrating there and spreading Islam, spreading the world of Allah SWT is far better for mankind than to be caught up in scientific ideals with no limits and the fundamental belief of Darwin's theory on the origin of life.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-04-2007, 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Do you know where Algebra is derived from? From Al Jabr.
It is true that the word 'algebra' comes from arabic 'al jabr', but muslims did not invent algebra. Algebra is a collection of thoughts contributed to by many.
Algebra was contributed greatly to by the egyptians, and the babylonians. Both have algebraic roots going back as far as 1800 BC. Note that niether followed islam this early as it had not yet been founded. They were still worshipping pagan gods (moon, sun, etc.).
The egyptians did not use symbols, it was all verbal. The greatest improvements and advancements were by the hindus starting in about 800 BC.
Centuries later, in the time of Mohummad, the muslims invaded India. During this time they improved on the Hindu algebra. Interestingly enough though, they took a step backwards, and rejected negative numbers in spite of having learned of them from the Hindus.
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SilentObserver
02-04-2007, 08:29 AM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
I think the biggest debt the west owes Islam is Muslims immigrating there and spreading Islam, spreading the world of Allah SWT is far better for mankind than to be caught up in scientific ideals with no limits and the fundamental belief of Darwin's theory on the origin of life.
It's a nice opinion, but no thanks.:thankyou:
Reply

zaki.aumeerudy
02-04-2007, 09:06 AM
Originally Posted by Idris
:sl:



I suppose the debt that the West owes to Islam in the realm of science would be something which the present generation should be made aware of, because science is so central to life in Western society. And if people are aware of the roots of science, and the evolution of science, the scientific method, for instance, which is so central to scientific inquiry, if people become aware of this, then I think the attitude towards Islam would also change.

Your views

:w:
in fact you are right but this recognition would have made islaam more powerful and that is something not wanted though now
Reply

England
02-04-2007, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
I think the biggest debt the west owes Islam is Muslims immigrating there and spreading Islam, spreading the world of Allah SWT is far better for mankind than to be caught up in scientific ideals with no limits and the fundamental belief of Darwin's theory on the origin of life.
That would be too much of a debt. No thanks.
Reply

zaki.aumeerudy
02-04-2007, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by England
That would be too much of a debt. No thanks.

you are right toomuch time will be wated
Reply

Jibril
02-05-2007, 02:23 AM
Silent Observer and the other nonMuslim poster,

If i'm not mistaken most scholars are in agreement that Muslim ruled Spain provided the spark that eventually led to the enlightenment. One can deduce from this that if Muslims had never conquered Spain then Europe would have lingered in the dark ages for quite a bit longer. If this had not happened, ofcourse your living standards today would be very different and probably far worse than it is now. So you can say that you do owe Muslim civilization a debt of gratitude.

And for our nonMuslim brothers that enjoy the Classics, you would have been ignorant of Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates had it not been for the great acheivements of Muslim scholars. Again i would say gratitude is in order.

peace be to you
Reply

Keltoi
02-05-2007, 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by Jibril
Silent Observer and the other nonMuslim poster,

If i'm not mistaken most scholars are in agreement that Muslim ruled Spain provided the spark that eventually led to the enlightenment. One can deduce from this that if Muslims had never conquered Spain then Europe would have lingered in the dark ages for quite a bit longer. If this had not happened, ofcourse your living standards today would be very different and probably far worse than it is now. So you can say that you do owe Muslim civilization a debt of gratitude.

And for our nonMuslim brothers that enjoy the Classics, you would have been ignorant of Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates had it not been for the great acheivements of Muslim scholars. Again i would say gratitude is in order.

peace be to you
I agree about the ancient writings being preserved. However, I do not belive that the "West" would have stayed in the Dark Ages if not for some supposed "spark" in Spain. What changed in the West was the intellectual approach to classic philosophy and classical knowledge. During the Dark and Middle Ages, Western thinkers always looked to Aristotle and Plato as the end all of knowledge, always looking backwards for enlightenment. This changed as intellectuals began to think forward and concentrated on finding a new way of thinking. This had little to nothing to do with Spain, and more on the scientific progress found with Sir Isaac Newton and similar figures.

Not saying Muslims didn't contribute, but twisting history to make it seem the West owes Muslims for its accomplishments is naive, and bordering on ludicrous IMO.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-05-2007, 05:12 AM
Its not twisting though because it is true. You yourself admitted it. The Greeks were more theoretical in a lot of the things they did. Not saying they didn't contribute. Alot of civilizations did. I mean we all have a mind of our own. But you can never deny what's true.

Peace:)
Reply

Pygoscelis
02-05-2007, 05:28 AM
There were a lot of contributions by Islamic thinkers back in the day. But that was centuries ago, before Islam fell into its own dark age, much like Christianity did, but Islam has yet to recover.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-05-2007, 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by Jibril
Silent Observer and the other nonMuslim poster,

If i'm not mistaken most scholars are in agreement that Muslim ruled Spain provided the spark that eventually led to the enlightenment. One can deduce from this that if Muslims had never conquered Spain then Europe would have lingered in the dark ages for quite a bit longer. If this had not happened, ofcourse your living standards today would be very different and probably far worse than it is now. So you can say that you do owe Muslim civilization a debt of gratitude.

And for our nonMuslim brothers that enjoy the Classics, you would have been ignorant of Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates had it not been for the great acheivements of Muslim scholars. Again i would say gratitude is in order.

peace be to you
For the most part, this is utter nonsense. To suggest that enlightenment came as an explosion of intellectual awakening from Spain, is misleading, and just plain wrong.
The enlightenment was not really about science, it was more of a philosophical movement, which lead to advances in many areas of human thinking, such as science, mathmatics, politics, and even religion. I get the impression that some think that that this is just about science. The truth is quite the contrary. Even at that, science was still advancing without Spain. If some want to give acknowledgement to the fact that someone acted as good librarians in preserving writings in Spain, well then kudos to the librarians. Good job, thanks.
There was much more going on with human potential during this time than the simple logistics of things placed in spain. Great thinkers were everywhere. True many were inspired and learned from works preserved in Rome, but many did not need this as well.
Much of the advancements in science that came from great people such as Sir Isaac Newton would have been difficult without algebra, this is obvious. But as stated earlier, muslims cannot claim to be the creators of algebra. Algebra was contributed greatly to by the egyptians, and the babylonians centuries before islam was founded. Credit for the greatest improvements and advancements are owed to the hindus in India. Muslims later picked up algebra after invading India and refined much algebraic thinking, and brought it into europe.
It is interesting to note that while credit is not commonly given to egyptians, they were using algebra and trigonometry 4800 years ago in Africa while building the pyramids. The chinese had developed much in algebraic formulas hundreds of years before europeans developed the same formulas.

There were many great thinkers that created a surge in human advancement that propelled us out of the dark ages. This thinking was not confined to science. And these great people came from all over europe, asia, africa, and even the americas.
So, I agree, gratitude is in order. But not to muslims, but to all of the great people in humanity that shared the fruit from their thirst for knowledge.
Muslims contributed, no doubt, But many contributed. To say that muslims are the key to this, or that it would not have happened without them, is like saying it would not have happened without the english philosopher, John Locke. He was important, but the age of enlightenment would have occured with or without him, just as it would have without muslims. Humanity was ready, it was time.
Reply

Jibril
02-05-2007, 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
For the most part, this is utter nonsense. To suggest that enlightenment came as an explosion of intellectual awakening from Spain, is misleading, and just plain wrong.
The enlightenment was not really about science, it was more of a philosophical movement, which lead to advances in many areas of human thinking, such as science, mathmatics, politics, and even religion. I get the impression that some think that that this is just about science. The truth is quite the contrary. Even at that, science was still advancing without Spain. If some want to give acknowledgement to the fact that someone acted as good librarians in preserving writings in Spain, well then kudos to the librarians. Good job, thanks.
There was much more going on with human potential during this time than the simple logistics of things placed in spain. Great thinkers were everywhere. True many were inspired and learned from works preserved in Rome, but many did not need this as well.
Much of the advancements in science that came from great people such as Sir Isaac Newton would have been difficult without algebra, this is obvious. But as stated earlier, muslims cannot claim to be the creators of algebra. Algebra was contributed greatly to by the egyptians, and the babylonians centuries before islam was founded. Credit for the greatest improvements and advancements are owed to the hindus in India. Muslims later picked up algebra after invading India and refined much algebraic thinking, and brought it into europe.
It is interesting to note that while credit is not commonly given to egyptians, they were using algebra and trigonometry 4800 years ago in Africa while building the pyramids. The chinese had developed much in algebraic formulas hundreds of years before europeans developed the same formulas.

There were many great thinkers that created a surge in human advancement that propelled us out of the dark ages. This thinking was not confined to science. And these great people came from all over europe, asia, africa, and even the americas.
So, I agree, gratitude is in order. But not to muslims, but to all of the great people in humanity that shared the fruit from their thirst for knowledge.
Muslims contributed, no doubt, But many contributed. To say that muslims are the key to this, or that it would not have happened without them, is like saying it would not have happened without the english philosopher, John Locke. He was important, but the age of enlightenment would have occured with or without him, just as it would have without muslims. Humanity was ready, it was time.
SilentObserver and Keitol,

Both of you are missing the point of my argument. Let me clarify. It is not neccesarily the scientific acheivements of Muslims that brought Europe out of a rutt and I never claimed that. But the advancement of Muslim society and their tradition of not only tolerating, but encouraging artists and scholars in their endeavors is what provided the impetus for the European intellectuals to change the way they thought. Its easy to write off Spain as irrelevant but look at the facts. Spain was almost literally a paradise smack dab in the middle of a backward cesspool. It was an oasis of knowledge and education in a desert of ignorance. Don't tell me this didn't rub off on Europe because I know for a fact that it did. And remember this was a time when Christian Europe was well behind the Islamic societies whom they regarded as their main competitors. European church leaders stifled free thought while Muslim leaders embraced it, and European intellectuals realized these things. Europeans started valuing and coopting things that Muslims had long practiced and thus started their long march out of the dark ages.

So all these conditions provided the impetus for the Europeans to change the way they thought. They didn't just up and say "Hey we can do better". Something they saw put it in their heads that they could do better,..and that something was the Islamic civilization. They travelled extensively in Muslim lands since the Crusades and this is when the Europeans first felt that their lives could be better by experiencing the richness of Muslim society,..from the spiced foods to the magnificent texiles to the healthcare.

I think your failure to recognize this stems from a bias education system that deliberately seeks to minimize Islam's contribution to humanity. European scholars(from whom you have inherited your knowledge) throughout the ages have never been honest about Islam they always tried to belittle it and degrade it obviously out of bitterness, fear, and a sense of competition. But the end result is that Islamic Civilization never got their due recognition unlike the Greeks and the Romans. We had philosophers and poets as fascinating as Plato and Aeneas, scientists as brilliant as Isaac Newton and story tellers as captivating as Shaekespeare. However these figures are largely unknown to the common westerner due to what I believe has been a long campaign to discredit and minimize the Islamic civilization and its contributions.

peace be to you
Reply

Idris
02-05-2007, 02:33 PM
SilentObserver and Keitol,

Both of you are missing the point of my argument. Let me clarify. It is not neccesarily the scientific acheivements of Muslims that brought Europe out of a rutt and I never claimed that. But the advancement of Muslim society and their tradition of not only tolerating, but encouraging artists and scholars in their endeavors is what provided the impetus for the European intellectuals to change the way they thought. Its easy to write off Spain as irrelevant but look at the facts. Spain was almost literally a paradise smack dab in the middle of a backward cesspool. It was an oasis of knowledge and education in a desert of ignorance. Don't tell me this didn't rub off on Europe because I know for a fact that it did. And remember this was a time when Christian Europe was well behind the Islamic societies whom they regarded as their main competitors. European church leaders stifled free thought while Muslim leaders embraced it, and European intellectuals realized these things. Europeans started valuing and coopting things that Muslims had long practiced and thus started their long march out of the dark ages.
:muddlehea
You hit the nail right on the head.


For the most part, this is utter nonsense. To suggest that enlightenment came as an explosion of intellectual awakening from Spain, is misleading, and just plain wrong.

One of the great factors now freely realized for the European renaissance was the Arab scientific and literary influence that penetrated into society through Sicily and Spain. European scholars freely gathered into Spanish Arab universities of Cordova and Granada and learned at the feet of Arab teachers, the most important among them being Pope Silvestre II (1000 A.D.) who learnt Arabic numerals in Spain and replaced the old clumsy Roman figures by them and Roger Bacon of Oxford.

Under the administration of the Arabs, and at its peak of prosperity Cordova became a beautiful city of palaces and gardens. Al-Maqqari says that with its 113,000 homes, 21 suburbs, 70 libraries and numerous book- shops, mosques and palaces, it acquired international fame and inspired awe and admiration in the hearts of travelers. After sunset a man might walk through its solidly paved streets in a straight line for ten miles by the light of public lamps whereas, according to John W. Draper. “seven hundred years after the time there was not so much as one public lamp in London and in Paris, centuries subsequently, whoever stepped over this threshold on a rainy day stepped up to his ankles in mud.” other cities as Granada, Seville and Toledo considered themselves rivals of Cordova.

By Prof. Ziauddin Ahamad
INFLUENCE OF ISLAM ON WORLD CIVILIZATION
Reply

zaki.aumeerudy
02-05-2007, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Jibril
Silent Observer and the other nonMuslim poster,

If i'm not mistaken most scholars are in agreement that Muslim ruled Spain provided the spark that eventually led to the enlightenment. One can deduce from this that if Muslims had never conquered Spain then Europe would have lingered in the dark ages for quite a bit longer. If this had not happened, ofcourse your living standards today would be very different and probably far worse than it is now. So you can say that you do owe Muslim civilization a debt of gratitude.

And for our nonMuslim brothers that enjoy the Classics, you would have been ignorant of Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates had it not been for the great acheivements of Muslim scholars. Again i would say gratitude is in order.

peace be to you
u are right but is it useful to fight upon that
Reply

Jibril
02-05-2007, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy
u are right but is it useful to fight upon that
not fighting about just talking about it for the benefit of not only NonMuslims who never knew, but also for Muslims who have forgotten their noble heritage. Nowadays Muslims are viewed as the lowest of the low in western countries, more despised than jews and more taboo than gays. We need to remind ourselves and the westerners that as they now despise us,..there was a time when they envied us and felt inferior to us.
Reply

Muezzin
02-05-2007, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
There were a lot of contributions by Islamic thinkers back in the day. But that was centuries ago, before Islam fell into its own dark age, much like Christianity did, but Islam has yet to recover.
That's because Muslims back in the day didn't waste time blaming all of their problems on the super power of the times and instead put their efforts into making major scientific, mathematical and architectural contributions.
Reply

Keltoi
02-05-2007, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
That's because Muslims back in the day didn't waste time blaming all of their problems on the super power of the times and instead put their efforts into making major scientific, mathematical and architectural contributions.
Very perceptive statement, and I would also add that one of the main ingredients for human progress is self-criticism. Blaming others will only create a victim mentality, and that is no way to achieve real progress.
Reply

Jibril
02-05-2007, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Very perceptive statement, and I would also add that one of the main ingredients for human progress is self-criticism. Blaming others will only create a victim mentality, and that is no way to achieve real progress.
I agree. The reason why Muslims have fallen so low is because our values have changed. Muslims of the past, with all their flaws,..had a deep respect for scholarship and intellectual freedom. The caliphs were huge patrons of the arts and sciences. Thats why all the best thinkers flocked to Muslim lands whether Jewish Christian or Muslim. People didn't feel stifled. The complete opposite was true for Christian Europe in the dark ages. Today the roles have reversed,...there is no concept of intellectual freedom in the Muslim world and consequently all the brightest Muslims are moving to intellectually free countries of Europe and North America.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-05-2007, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Jibril
SilentObserver and Keitol,

Both of you are missing the point of my argument. Let me clarify. It is not neccesarily the scientific acheivements of Muslims that brought Europe out of a rutt and I never claimed that. But the advancement of Muslim society and their tradition of not only tolerating, but encouraging artists and scholars in their endeavors is what provided the impetus for the European intellectuals to change the way they thought. Its easy to write off Spain as irrelevant but look at the facts. Spain was almost literally a paradise smack dab in the middle of a backward cesspool. It was an oasis of knowledge and education in a desert of ignorance. Don't tell me this didn't rub off on Europe because I know for a fact that it did. And remember this was a time when Christian Europe was well behind the Islamic societies whom they regarded as their main competitors. European church leaders stifled free thought while Muslim leaders embraced it, and European intellectuals realized these things. Europeans started valuing and coopting things that Muslims had long practiced and thus started their long march out of the dark ages.

So all these conditions provided the impetus for the Europeans to change the way they thought. They didn't just up and say "Hey we can do better". Something they saw put it in their heads that they could do better,..and that something was the Islamic civilization. They travelled extensively in Muslim lands since the Crusades and this is when the Europeans first felt that their lives could be better by experiencing the richness of Muslim society,..from the spiced foods to the magnificent texiles to the healthcare.

I think your failure to recognize this stems from a bias education system that deliberately seeks to minimize Islam's contribution to humanity. European scholars(from whom you have inherited your knowledge) throughout the ages have never been honest about Islam they always tried to belittle it and degrade it obviously out of bitterness, fear, and a sense of competition. But the end result is that Islamic Civilization never got their due recognition unlike the Greeks and the Romans. We had philosophers and poets as fascinating as Plato and Aeneas, scientists as brilliant as Isaac Newton and story tellers as captivating as Shaekespeare. However these figures are largely unknown to the common westerner due to what I believe has been a long campaign to discredit and minimize the Islamic civilization and its contributions.

peace be to you

Ohhhhh that so hit hard lol :thumbs_up
Reply

Idris
02-05-2007, 09:12 PM
History stands as the most effective and valuable source of putting nations on the course of progress and prosperity and saving them from the path of disgrace and degradation. At a time. When there is tough competition among the nations of the world to excel one another, the Muslims, despite having the most glorious history, appear to be detached and careless as regards their history.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by Jibril
SilentObserver and Keitol,

Both of you are missing the point of my argument. Let me clarify. It is not neccesarily the scientific acheivements of Muslims that brought Europe out of a rutt and I never claimed that. But the advancement of Muslim society and their tradition of not only tolerating, but encouraging artists and scholars in their endeavors is what provided the impetus for the European intellectuals to change the way they thought. Its easy to write off Spain as irrelevant but look at the facts. Spain was almost literally a paradise smack dab in the middle of a backward cesspool. It was an oasis of knowledge and education in a desert of ignorance. Don't tell me this didn't rub off on Europe because I know for a fact that it did. And remember this was a time when Christian Europe was well behind the Islamic societies whom they regarded as their main competitors. European church leaders stifled free thought while Muslim leaders embraced it, and European intellectuals realized these things. Europeans started valuing and coopting things that Muslims had long practiced and thus started their long march out of the dark ages.

So all these conditions provided the impetus for the Europeans to change the way they thought. They didn't just up and say "Hey we can do better". Something they saw put it in their heads that they could do better,..and that something was the Islamic civilization. They travelled extensively in Muslim lands since the Crusades and this is when the Europeans first felt that their lives could be better by experiencing the richness of Muslim society,..from the spiced foods to the magnificent texiles to the healthcare.

I think your failure to recognize this stems from a bias education system that deliberately seeks to minimize Islam's contribution to humanity. European scholars(from whom you have inherited your knowledge) throughout the ages have never been honest about Islam they always tried to belittle it and degrade it obviously out of bitterness, fear, and a sense of competition. But the end result is that Islamic Civilization never got their due recognition unlike the Greeks and the Romans. We had philosophers and poets as fascinating as Plato and Aeneas, scientists as brilliant as Isaac Newton and story tellers as captivating as Shaekespeare. However these figures are largely unknown to the common westerner due to what I believe has been a long campaign to discredit and minimize the Islamic civilization and its contributions.

peace be to you
If you read my post you will see that I am not attempting to minimize the contribution of muslims, just to put it in it's proper position. I have not claimed that muslims did not contribute, just not to the extend to which you exaggerate. While you feel I am minimizing the contribution, I see that you are maximizing it well beyond what is truth.
I did not claim that Spain was irrelevent, only that it was not the origin of some explosion of thought.
Either way, Spain had long been free of the moors by the time the age of enlightenment had begun. It had been more than 200 years since the last of the muslims had been defeated and driven from europe, how is it that the many, many great scholars had been influenced by islamic civilization when they had never seen it? Most scholars of the time had never travelled outside of their own country, let alone to an islamic country. You also miss the point that the enlightenment was not confined to europe.
Something they saw put it in their heads that they could do better
Something they saw 200 years after the muslims were driven out, yes, something that had nothing to do with muslims. And again, the age was not confined to europe.
They travelled extensively in Muslim lands since the Crusades
who did? the scholars of the age of enlightenment? which ones?
You spoke of a biased education, but you don't know where I have gained my knowledge. I had been thinking exactly the same of you but held back for that very reason, I don't know where you learned what you have. It is obvious though, that you have gained some very misleading information from an extremely biased source. Did you attend an islamic school or was it from seeking out islamic sources? Either way, it is an extremely exaggerated version of islamic influence on western thinking.
It is just an exaggeration. Plain and simple. Sorry, but it is true. I'll give credit where it is due, islamic civilization did have some influence, but not nearly to the extent that is being said here. It was one factor in many, many factors that allowed for this awakening to occur. Certainly not the factor.

Peace.
Reply

Bittersteel
02-06-2007, 03:53 AM
you know something,this is all history.Remembering this and 'worshiping' such facts won't help us in the long run.Muslims didn't invent everything.they preserved a lot of ancient knowledge.Obviously there were famous Muslims like Ibn Sina who made contributions.Muslim civilizations were tolerant and somewhat forward compared to others at that time.I think that allowed the Islamic civilization to expand and advance.But that was for a very short period when you compare to the period of glory and power the Europeans had.
we are now in the dumps.
Reply

sudais1
02-06-2007, 04:15 AM
according to History Islam did contribute alot and the west does owe us alot for example from PBS ISLAM EMPIRE OF FAITH you can read many contributions the west never new for Instance:

Algebra and Trigonometry



Medieval Muslims made invaluable contributions to the study of mathematics, and their key role is clear from the many terms derived from Arabic. Perhaps the most famous mathematician was Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi (ca. 800-ca. 847), author of several treatises of earth-shattering importance. His book On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals, written about 825, was principally responsible for the diffusion of the Indian system of numeration (Arabic numerals) in the Islamic lands and the West.

Traditional systems had used different letters of the alphabet to represent numbers or cumbersome Roman numerals, and the new system was far superior, for it allowed people to multiply and divide easily and check their work. The merchant Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who had learned about Arabic numerals in Tunis, wrote a treatise rejecting the abacus in favor of the Arab method of reckoning, and as a result, the system of Hindu-Arabic numeration caught on quickly in Central Italy. By the fourteenth century, Italian merchants and bankers had abandoned the abacus and were doing their calculations using pen and paper, in much the same way we do today.

In addition to his treatise on numerals, al-Khwarizmi also wrote a revolutionary book on resolving quadratic equations. These were given either as geometric demonstrations or as numerical proofs in an entirely new mode of expression. The book was soon translated into Latin, and the word in its title, al-jabr, or transposition, gave the entire process its name in European languages, algebra, understood today as the generalization of arithmetic in which symbols, usually letters of the alphabet such as A, B, and C, represent numbers. Al-Khwarizmi had used the Arabic word for "thing" (shay) to refer to the quantity sought, the unknown. When al-Khwarizmi's work was translated in Spain, the Arabic word shay was transcribed as xay, since the letter x was pronounced as sh in Spain. In time this word was abbreviated as x, the universal algebraic symbol for the unknown.

Robert of Chester's translation of al-Khwarzmi's treatise on algebra opens with the words dixit Algorithmi, "Algorithmi says." In time, the mathematician's epithet of his Central Asian origin, al-Khwarizmi, came in the West to denote first the new process of reckoning with Hindu-Arabic numerals, algorithmus, and then the entire step-by-step process of solving mathematical problems, algorithm.


Engineering



Medieval Muslim scientists often focused on practical matters, particularly hydraulic engineering, as water was always a precious resource in the arid lands where Islam traditionally flourished. Engineers designed various kinds of water-raising machines, some powered by animals, others powered by rivers and streams. The waterwheels along the Orontes River in Syria were used to irrigate until modern times. Watermills were used to grind corn and other grains, though in Iran water power was often supplemented or replaced by wind.

Bridges and dams were needed to channel water. In addition to the standard beam, cantilever and arch bridges, engineers also designed bridges of boats to span rivers. Dams were widely used to divert rivers into irrigation canals. Perhaps the most ingenious hydraulic technologies were the distribution networks of canals and qanats, subterranean aqueducts that sometimes carried water for hundreds of miles. Cisterns and underground ice-houses were used for storage. Various instruments were used to measure water flow, and the Nilometer built in 861-62 still stands on Rawda Island in Cairo.

In addition to these machines and technologies related to water, Muslim engineers also designed several types of siege engines, notably the traction and the counterweight trebuchet. Their ingenuity is clear from the many kinds of fine machines they also perfected, ranging from clocks and automata to fountains. Some were meant for practical purposes but others were designed for amusement or aesthetic enjoyment, and their components and techniques were of great importance for the development of machine technology.


Astronomy




As in the other sciences, astronomers in the Muslim lands built upon and greatly expanded earlier traditions. At the House of Knowledge founded in Baghdad by the Abbasid caliph Mamun, scientists translated many texts from Sanskrit, Pahlavi or Old Persian, Greek and Syriac into Arabic, notably the great Sanskrit astronomical tables and Ptolemy's astronomical treatise, the Almagest. Muslim astronomers accepted the geometrical structure of the universe expounded by Ptolemy, in which the earth rests motionless near the center of a series of eight spheres, which encompass it, but then faced the problem of reconciling the theoretical model with Aristotelian physics and physical realities derived from observation.

Some of the most impressive efforts to modify Ptolemaic theory were made at the observatory founded by Nasir al-Din Tusi in 1257 at Maragha in northwestern Iran and continued by his successors at Tabriz and Damascus. With the assistance of Chinese colleagues, Muslim astronomers worked out planetary models that depended solely on combinations of uniform circular motions. The astronomical tables compiled at Maragha served as a model for later Muslim astronomical efforts. The most famous imitator was the observatory founded in 1420 by the Timurid prince Ulughbeg at Samarkand in Central Asia, where the astronomer Ghiyath al-Din Jamshid al-Kashi worked out his own set of astronomical tables, with sections on diverse computations and eras, the knowledge of time, the course of the stars, and the position of the fixed stars. Essentially Ptolemaic, these tables have improved parameters and structure as well as additional material on the Chinese Uighur-calendar. They were widely admired and translated even as far away as England, where John Greaves, professor at Oxford, called attention to them in 1665.

Medicine



Medieval Muslims revolutionized the science and practice of medicine, as physicians began to question the medical traditions inherited from both East and West and distinguish one disease from another. For example, Ibn al-Haytham (ca. 965-1039), the so-called "father of optics," explained how human vision takes place by integrating physical, mathematical, experimental, physiological, and psychological considerations. His treatise had an enormous impact on all later writers on optics, both in the Muslim world and through a medieval Latin translation in the West. Similarly, the great Egyptian physician Ibn al-Nafis (d. 1288), discovered the minor, or pulmonary, circulation of the blood. Ibn Sina (980-1037), known in the West as Avicenna, synthesized Aristotelian and later Greek theories with his own original views, and his Canon of Medicine became the most famous medical book in the East or West, translated at least 87 times.

Muslims also expanded the practice of medical schools and hospitals. The Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid used the Sasanian academy of Jundishapur in southwestern Iran as his model when he founded his own hospital in Baghdad (ca. 800). Hospitals were soon established throughout the empire. They were staffed by dozens of specialists, from physiologists, oculists, and surgeons, to bonesetters. They even had special wards for the mentally ill and separate wings for men and women. These hospitals were often incorporated into large charitable foundations and were supported by endowments made by powerful and wealthy individuals. One of the most famous was that founded by the Mamluk sultan Qalawun in Cairo. In addition, traveling clinics and dispensaries provided services to rural areas.


Paper & Publishing



Muslims were responsible for the transfer of papermaking from China, where it had been invented in the centuries before Christ, to Europe, where it fueled the print revolution in the late fifteenth century. Muslims encountered paper when they conquered Central Asia in the eighth century. Paper quickly supplanted papyrus (which was made only in Egypt) and parchment (which was made from animal skins), for it could be made virtually anywhere from rags and waste fibers. Although it was not cheap, paper had the great advantage of being difficult to erase, an important consideration when documents and records had to be secure from forgery. The use of paper soon spread from government offices to all segments of society. By the middle of the ninth century the Papersellers' Street in Baghdad had more than one hundred shops in which paper and books were sold.

Medieval Islamic society had a paper economy, where both wholesale and retail merchants conducted commerce on credit. Orders of payment, the equivalent of modern checks (the Persian word sakk is the origin of our word "check"), were drawn in amounts upwards from one dinar (a gold coin roughly equivalent to half a month's salary). By the ninth century paper was used for copying scientific and other types of utilitarian texts, although it took longer for Muslims to accept the use of paper as a fitting support for God's word. The first paper manuscript of the Koran to survive dates from 972, but from this date paper soon became standard for all books. Medieval Islamic libraries had hundreds of thousands of volumes far outstripping the relatively small monastic and university libraries in the West.

So I suppose Islam did Contribute alot while the west contributes to bombing us:mad:
Reply

Jibril
02-06-2007, 04:15 AM
Silent Observer,..

A few quotes to ponder. We can go back and forth all day but I am not exaggerating at all.

Islam's Contribution To Europe's Renaissance

Islam And The West
. . . we have underestimated the importance of 800 years of Islamic society and culture in Spain between the 8th and 15th centuries. The contribution of Muslim Spain to the preservation of classical learning during the Dark Ages, and to the first flowering of the Renaissance, has long been recognized. But Islamic Spain was much more than a mere larder where Hellenistic knowledge was kept for later consumption by the emerging modern world. Not only did Muslim Spain gather and preserve the intellectual content of ancient Greek and Roman civilization, it also interpreted and expanded upon that civilization, and made a vital contribution of its own in so many fields of human endeavour -- in science, astronomy, mathematics, algebra (itself an Arabic word), law, history, medicine, pharmacology, optics, agriculture, architecture, theology, music. Averroes and Avenzoor, like their counterparts Avicenna and Rhazes in the East, contributed to the study and practice of medicine in ways from which Europe benefited for centuries afterwards.
Islam nurtured and preserved the quest for learning. In the words of (the Prophet's) tradition "the ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr." Cordoba in the 10th century was by far the most civilized city of Europe. We know of lending libraries in Spain at the time King Alfred was making terrible blunders with the culinary arts in this country. It is said that the 400,000 volumes of its ruler's library amounted to more books than all the of the rest of Europe put together. That was made possible because the Muslim world acquired from China the skill of making paper more than four hundred years before the rest of non-Muslim Europe. Many of the traits on which Europe prides itself came to it from Muslim Spain. Diplomacy, free trade, open borders, the techniques of academic research, of anthropology, etiquette, fashion, alternative medicine, hospitals, all came from this great city of cities. Mediaeval Islam was a religion of remarkable tolerance for its time, allowing Jews and Christians to practice their inherited beliefs, and setting an example which was not, unfortunately, copied for many centuries in the West. The surprise, ladies and gentlemen, is the extent to which Islam has been a part of Europe for so long, first in Spain, then in the Balkans, and the extent to which it has contributed so much towards the civilization which we all too often think of, wrongly, as entirely Western. Islam is part of our past and present, in all fields of human endeavour. It has helped to create modern Europe. It is part of our own inheritance, not a thing apart.

--Christopher Hitchens, The Nation
[It] is no exaggeration to say that what we presumptuously call 'Western' culture is owed in large measure to the Andalusian enlightenment....This book partly restores to us a world we have lost, a world for which our current monotheistic leaderships do not even feel nostalgia.


Akbar S. Ahmed, Living Islam
It is well to recall that Islam not only caused Islamic civilization to develop but also enabled the European Renaissance to take root and grow. The time when Islam was most strongly established was also the time when art, culture and literature flourished, whether in Spain or, later, under the Ottomans, the Safavids and the Mughals. Christian Europe was enveloped in darkness until Islam came to the Iberian peninsula. For centuries Islam fed Greek, Sanskrit and Chinese ideas into Europe. Slowly and steadily Europe began to absorb those ideas. In England, France, Germany and Italy society began to explore literature and art with a new perspective; thus the seeds of the Renaissance were sown. -- p. 15

James Johnston, Medieval Script Shows Islam's Role in Learning
The manuscript stands as a uniquely important monument to the central role of Jews and Muslims in the spread of knowledge and learning throughout medieval Europe, as well as being possibly the earliest known example of Latin script of any kind written on paper. Sotheby's says that only four other copies of this work are known.
S.M. Ghazanfar, Islamic Civilization: History, Contributions, and Influence
An extensive compendium of literature on Islamic civilization, this book presents more than mere annotations - it details over 600 books and articles in detailed and focused "literature briefs" that provide a springboard to extensive readings for any student or teacher of Islamic culture.

Washington W. Irving, Tales Of The Alhambra
As conquerors [Muslims], their heroism was equaled only by their moderation, and in both, for a time, they excelled the nations with whom they contended. Severed from their native homes, they loved the land given them as they supposed by Allah and strove to embellish it with everything that could administer to the happiness of man. Laying the foundations of their power in a system of wise and equitable laws, diligently cultivating the arts and sciences, and promoting agriculture, manufactures and commerce, they gradually formed an empire unrivaled for its prosperity by any of the empires of Christendom . . .
The cities of Arabian Spain became the resort of Christian artisans, to instruct themselves in the useful art. The Universities of Toledo, Cordova, Seville, Granada, were sought by the pale student from lands to acquaint himself with the sciences of the Arabs and the treasure lore of antiquity. -- p. 52

Martin Wainwright, Our Debt to Islam
While the barbarians smashed and burned in western Europe, the Arabs and Persians used the libraries of Alexandria and Asia Minor, translated the scrolls and took them to Baghdad and far beyond. In distant Bukhara on the Silk Road to China, a teenager called Abu Ali Ibn Sina was engrossed in Aristotle's Metaphysics at the age of 17. The year was AD997 and the text - central to the subsequent development of philosophy - had long been lost and unknown in western Europe.

David Self, Christians and Muslims Share a Journey
We are indebted to the Arabic world not only for arithmetic but also for algebra and trigonometry. Logarithms were invented by a mathematician called Al-Khwarizmi in the 7th century. Test tubes, the compass and the first surgical tools were all pioneered by Muslim inventors. A thousand years ago, it is said, Baghdad had 60 hospitals.
This scientific flowering was accompanied by the establishment of the first universities - or madrassahs. In a madrassah, the sheik or professor taught, literally, from a chair. He was assisted by readers. When the west eventually replicated such places of learning, we borrowed such terms.

Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel
In the Middle Ages the flow of technology was overwhelmingly from Islam to Europe, rather than from Europe to Islam as it is today. Only around A.D. 1500 did the net direction of flow begin to reverse. -- p. 253

Susan Spano, Revealed: Muslim Traveler Who Rivaled Marco Polo
I had studied medieval Europe ethnocentrically but now can only conclude that during Battuta's time, it was a cultural, political and technological sideshow. In the 14th century, the main event was Dar al-Islam.
Reply

Jibril
02-06-2007, 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
you know something,this is all history.Remembering this and 'worshiping' such facts won't help us in the long run.Muslims didn't invent everything.they preserved a lot of ancient knowledge.Obviously there were famous Muslims like Ibn Sina who made contributions.Muslim civilizations were tolerant and somewhat forward compared to others at that time.I think that allowed the Islamic civilization to expand and advance.But that was for a very short period when you compare to the period of glory and power the Europeans had.
we are now in the dumps.
How was it a short period? from the 8th century up until the 15th Muslims were on top. That is 7 centuries. Muslims ruled spain for 800 years. Comparatively America has only been around for 200 years and Europe has only been dominating for 400-600 years?

This is what upsets me,,,.,,we got fellow Muslims like yourself regurgitating the same mantras about Muslim civilization and believing that it wasn't anything compared to Europes glory. And the worst part is that what you're saying isn't factual.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 05:05 AM
Originally Posted by Jibril
How was it a short period? from the 8th century up until the 15th Muslims were on top. That is 7 centuries. Muslims ruled spain for 800 years. Comparatively America has only been around for 200 years and Europe has only been dominating for 400-600 years?

This is what upsets me,,,.,,we got fellow Muslims like yourself regurgitating the same mantras about Muslim civilization and believing that it wasn't anything compared to Europes glory. And the worst part is that what you're saying isn't factual.
This domination you speak of was only over spain and what is now portugal. Spain was easy pickings. It was a fragmented land, the people were unhappy with King Roderic, and the moors met with very little resistance.

They made the mistake of trying to overtake France (Gaul), and unfortunately for them, they ran into Charles "The Hammer" Martel. The incredible battle that ensued was extremely important to the Franks, and the moors did well at first. That is until it came down to hand to hand combat. This is where Charles got the name 'Martel'(the Hammer). The moors could not win this battle and were driven back into Spain.
Of course if the moors new that Charles did not have the wealth for a lengthy war, they might have wore the Franks down over time. Fortunately they did not know this.
So, no doubt the moors were a frightening force to deal with. But the real advantage that they had was wealth. They had been warring and pillaging all the way from Africa, of course they had wealth. Stolen wealth. The franks did not have this advantage. Had this not been an issue the moors would hardly even have been a threat.
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Jibril
02-06-2007, 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
This domination you speak of was only over spain and what is now portugal. Spain was easy pickings. It was a fragmented land, the people were unhappy with King Roderic, and the moors met with very little resistance.

They made the mistake of trying to overtake France (Gaul), and unfortunately for them, they ran into Charles "The Hammer" Martel. The incredible battle that ensued was extremely important to the Franks, and the moors did well at first. That is until it came down to hand to hand combat. This is where Charles got the name 'Martel'(the Hammer). The moors could not win this battle and were driven back into Spain.
Of course if the moors new that Charles did not have the wealth for a lengthy war, they might have wore the Franks down over time. Fortunately they did not know this.
So, no doubt the moors were a frightening force to deal with. But the real advantage that they had was wealth. They had been warring and pillaging all the way from Africa, of course they had wealth. Stolen wealth. The franks did not have this advantage. Had this not been an issue the moors would hardly even have been a threat.
I wasn't talking about domination of Europe, I was talking about domination of the world scene. All due respect, Europe was a backwater then it wasn't a big prize and if the Muslims were determined to overrun all of Europe they could have. But the will wasn't there. However if the order came from Damascus it would have happened. By that time though the Ummayad dynasty was only interested in consolidating what they had. This is precisely why the Battle of Tours is of such macrohistorical importance. Also, no doubt they underestimated Charles Martel but they also lost because one of their brilliant generals died and infighting insued in the Muslim camp. They never got their act together as a result. Not to mention, the Franks were prepared for the Muslims while the Muslims were complacent by so many lopsided victories.

Your assessment of the hand to hand fighting may be correct. But your assertion that wealth was what won their battles is quite laughable. Money doesn't win battles and the Muslims didn't just win the wars but the won battle after battle. In the early decades you would be hard pressed to find ANY muslim battlefield defeats. The Muslims definately did not wage wars of attrition. They didn't "outspend" their opponents. Its known history that their military successes were from superior battle tactics and more determination. Muslims always had an outstanding cavalry and it was on that basis they obliterated their opponents. They also had unmatched zeal. A big warchest is not what allowed them to overrun Persia, the Middleast, North Africa, and the Iberian peninsula.
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north_malaysian
02-06-2007, 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The only "debt" I think the West owes Islam is the preservation of Greek and Roman writings. That was indeed a good thing, and without that alot of ancient philosophy and worldview would have been lost forever.
There's no such thing as "debts" that Muslim owes, or Christian owes when it comes to knowledge..... it's all are called as "contributions" not "debts"

Nobody owes anybody...
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SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Jibril
I wasn't talking about domination of Europe, I was talking about domination of the world scene. All due respect, Europe was a backwater then it wasn't a big prize and if the Muslims were determined to overrun all of Europe they could have. But the will wasn't there. However if the order came from Damascus it would have happened. By that time though the Ummayad dynasty was only interested in consolidating what they had. This is precisely why the Battle of Tours is of such macrohistorical importance. Also, no doubt they underestimated Charles Martel but they also lost because one of their brilliant generals died and infighting insued in the Muslim camp. They never got their act together as a result. Not to mention, the Franks were prepared for the Muslims while the Muslims were complacent by so many lopsided victories.

Your assessment of the hand to hand fighting may be correct. But your assertion that wealth was what won their battles is quite laughable. Money doesn't win battles and the Muslims didn't just win the wars but the won battle after battle. In the early decades you would be hard pressed to find ANY muslim battlefield defeats. The Muslims definately did not wage wars of attrition. They didn't "outspend" their opponents. Its known history that their military successes were from superior battle tactics and more determination. Muslims always had an outstanding cavalry and it was on that basis they obliterated their opponents. They also had unmatched zeal. A big warchest is not what allowed them to overrun Persia, the Middleast, North Africa, and the Iberian peninsula.
Oh boy, are you ever off on your version events.

First let's deal with this silly statement,
if the Muslims were determined to overrun all of Europe they could have
Not a chance. Plain and simple. The franks threw together an army at the last minute, with little funding, and spanked them. Sent them back to Spain with their tails tucked neatly between their legs. it is laughable to think what would have happened when encountering the likes of the scandinavians and the english/irish/etc. If it were not the franks spanking the moors it would have been someone else.
However if the order came from Damascus it would have happened.
Impossible. Didn't happen because they knew they could not. They couldn't get past the relatively unorganized franks.
but they also lost because one of their brilliant generals died and infighting insued in the Muslim camp.
Lame excuse used by muslim teachers that cannot accept that the moors just were not good enough.
your assertion that wealth was what won their battles is quite laughable.
What is laughable is your ignorance of history, history has taught us that the better financed armies usually win. Not always, but usually. This case was no different. An army that has the wealth to properly feed, house, dress, and equip it's men will have a clear advantage. This was the case, it is foolish to deny what is known.
Anyway, I'm done with this thread for now. I may revisit it later, but I can see where it is going. Spiralling downward fast into a pointless arguement. It's pointless because your view of muslim place in history is so biased, distorted, exaggerated and inflated, that it is a waste of time to discuss these things. Perhaps I'll catch up with you on another thread where your thinking is a little closer to reality.
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SilentObserver
02-06-2007, 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
There's no such thing as "debts" that Muslim owes, or Christian owes when it comes to knowledge..... it's all are called as "contributions" not "debts"

Nobody owes anybody...
Thank you. A voice of reason.
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Idris
02-06-2007, 12:28 PM
Tariq landed on the coat of Spain along with his men and his first order was to set the boats on fire and sink them. This was undoubtedly strange but in fact, it was an act of matchless bravery. As a seasoned military commander, he knew that compared with the huge enemy force he had with him a very small one. His soldiers might lose heart or a discouraging situation might lead them to retreat. They were standing between their enemy and sea.

Tadmir, the military commander of Roderick was very experienced and had led his force to victory in a number of encounters. He was encamped near Tariq’s forces with a strong army. He launched a powerful attack before the Muslim forces had a chance to get settled. However, Tariq gave him a smashing defeat and he fled from the battlefield. He them wrote to Roderick the following day from a safe place:

“ O Emperor some strange people have invaded our territory. We fought with courage and bravery but tasted defeat and our troops could not withstand their onslaught.”


Thw two forces clashed on the bank of a small river near Janda Lagoon adjoing Sidonia city on 28 Ramadan 92 A.H. (July 711 C.E.). Now the twelve thousand men Joined Tariq before the confrontation. Now the twelve thousand men of Tariq had to face a strong Christian force of one hundred thousand

The greater part of Christian force consisted of cavalry clad in armour, while Muslim had only foot soldiers. The cavalry movement of the Christians was quite terrifying and it appeared very clear that they would crush the Muslim troops under their hooves without giving them an opportunity to take up their arms against the Christians. But the glittering Islamic swords dispelled the hovering clouds of the Christian force and left many lying dead and wounded their takir ( Allah-0-Akbar Allah is great) rent the air and subdued all other shouts and noise on the battlefield.


Wealth lol is that you argument. The Emperor of Spain was himself leading the army and all the resources of country were his command but he can’t stop 12,000 Muslim men then he had 100,000 men!! And this is not a one off this happen all the time.

At this time the Roman are paying tax to the Muslim the Persians have been done over and your saying that some franks that live all the way up in the north were a problem.

Maybe you need to take a look at reality or history.
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Keltoi
02-06-2007, 05:13 PM
If one truly wants to look at history....King Roderick was a Visigoth. Roderick had rivals who were Visigoths. The Muslims, made up mostly of Berbers, enlisted the aid of Roderick's Visigoth rivals in unseating Roderick. King Roderick was fighting Basques and Visigoths in the north when word came of a Muslim army invading from the south. Roderick turned south to fight the Muslims and was defeated. It isn't known whether he died on the battlefield, but historians believe he either drowned in the retreat or continued fighting for a few years until he did in fact die.

Just wanted to throw that out there...
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-07-2007, 04:56 AM
Originally Posted by Idris
History stands as the most effective and valuable source of putting nations on the course of progress and prosperity and saving them from the path of disgrace and degradation. At a time. When there is tough competition among the nations of the world to excel one another, the Muslims, despite having the most glorious history, appear to be detached and careless as regards their history.
as salaamu alaikum
u give a good point
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brenton
02-07-2007, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by Idris
:sl:
I suppose the debt that the West owes to Islam in the realm of science would be something which the present generation should be made aware of, because science is so central to life in Western society. And if people are aware of the roots of science, and the evolution of science, the scientific method, for instance, which is so central to scientific inquiry, if people become aware of this, then I think the attitude towards Islam would also change.

Your views

:w:
I don't think it was science as the West developed it, that was important for the West as much as it was philosophy and linguistics, but also astronomy and weaponry.
As far as "debt," we are a human community, and the debt is paid by the advancements that come--good or bad.
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Idris
02-07-2007, 12:39 PM
As far as "debt," we are a human community, and the debt is paid by the advancements that come--good or bad.
Plz read all of the thread Maybe you will understand what I mean by "debt"
Don't come on and just look at the word "debt" and make statements am not just bashing you there are other people too like.
There's no such thing as "debts" that Muslim owes, or Christian owes when it comes to knowledge..... it's all are called as "contributions" not "debts"

Nobody owes anybody...

Akhi, we don't do any work to please anyone besides Allaah. So the reward is with Him, the All Rich, insha'Allaah.

If I may, I will like to ask anyone a question.
Have you ever leant about what the Muslims accomplished In Spain in your history lesson in school? Have to ever been enlighten by your teacher about the Muslim civilization?
This quote puts it better then I can

"When we study Europe's Middle Ages, we seldom include Spain (at least not until after the "reconquest"). Our libraries abound with books on the Middle Ages, but try to find in any of them a single word about daily life and customs in Spain. It is as if later historians, in order to justify a uniquely "European history", ignored the fact that a vibrant and brilliant civilization created by "Others"—by Arabs, by Muslims, by Jews—by brown and black people—not only existed in Europe, but without whose contributions the region could not have become what it did. When we talk about "Europe's" Renassiance, we never think of its beginnings in Spain several centuries before it reached Italy. It's as if we lopped off a good 1000 years of history—or at least amputated it from Europe. Nothing could be farther from the truth."
From the introduction to A Medieval Banquet in the Alhambra Palace, Audrey Shabbas, editor, AWAIR, 1991.
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cihad
02-07-2007, 03:12 PM
All of ^ that is true ,but I think we need to come to the present, coz us muslims are not making a great deal of progress right now
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-07-2007, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by cihad
All of ^ that is true ,but I think we need to come to the present, coz us muslims are not making a great deal of progress right now
everyone says that we must follow quran and sunnah
how many poeple knows about quran and sunnah ? are they really interested
how many poeple are making hajj today ?? is there life changing ? why???
what is the problem ??
why are muslims being humiliated so much ??
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Idris
02-09-2007, 05:31 PM
All of ^ that is true ,but I think we need to come to the present, coz us muslims are not making a great deal of progress right now

everyone says that we must follow quran and sunnah
how many poeple knows about quran and sunnah ? are they really interested
how many poeple are making hajj today ?? is there life changing ? why???
what is the problem ??
why are muslims being humiliated so much ??

The answer is in history, look into the rise of Islam and the fall of Islam and you will understand why the Muslims are in as a bad way now. However, the west does not want you to know your history. They are terrified that if the Muslims discover about their great history I.e. the rise and fall of Muslims.Muslim they may ask themselves and say why can’t we do it again. We did one time we can do another time.
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Jibril
02-09-2007, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
The answer is in history, look into the rise of Islam and the fall of Islam and you will understand why the Muslims are in as a bad way now. However, the west does not want you to know your history. They are terrified that if the Muslims discover about their great history I.e. the rise and fall of Islam Muslim they may ask themselves and say why can’t we do it again. We did one time we can do another time.
You should say "rise and fall" of Muslims, not Islam. Islam has never fallen and will never fall inshallah.
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-10-2007, 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by Jibril
You should say "rise and fall" of Muslims, not Islam. Islam has never fallen and will never fall inshallah.
according to the ulamas the time of turmoil decsribed in the hadith has come
where a person is sleeping will be better than the one awaken
the person awaken will be better than the one sitting
the one sitting will be better than the one stnading
the one standing will be better than the one walking
the one walking will be better than the one running
the one who cna get a protection against that should do so
the technique used to destroy islaam is very complex but the majority of muslims do not care
they do care when it is too late , the time of dajjal is very near
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Idris
02-11-2007, 12:05 PM
You should say "rise and fall" of Muslims, not Islam. Islam has never fallen and will never fall inshallah.
Yes you are right.
Reply

ACC
02-23-2007, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
The answer is in history, look into the rise of Islam and the fall of Islam and you will understand why the Muslims are in as a bad way now. However, the west does not want you to know your history. They are terrified that if the Muslims discover about their great history I.e. the rise and fall of Muslims.Muslim they may ask themselves and say why can’t we do it again. We did one time we can do another time.
This seems a tad alarnist. Read as many books on history as you want and see how little people in the West care.
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czgibson
02-23-2007, 04:26 PM
Greetings,

If I may, I will like to ask anyone a question.
Have you ever leant about what the Muslims accomplished In Spain in your history lesson in school?
Yes.
Have to ever been enlighten by your teacher about the Muslim civilization?
Yes.

I've also learned much about Muslim contributions to the history of ideas through my own independent study. That's right - I spent time educating myself. You may be surprised by the number of people who have done the same.

In fact, I assumed it was fairly well-known that Islamic civilisation was at its peak while Europe was in the Dark Ages.

Nevertheless, deciding what "the main cause" of something as big as the Enlightenment was is surely impossible. There were many causes; fixing on one of them and endlessly arguing for it only makes one seem ignorant of all the others.

It's amazing how many examples of paranoia and the victim complex are to be found in this thread. I think Muezzin's post has been one of the wisest so far. If Muslims stopped blaming others for the situation they find themselves in, is it possible their fortunes would improve?

Peace
Reply

Akil
02-27-2007, 12:08 PM
Most of modern science, mathematics, philosophy and even medicine were indeed more or less founded by the Greek civilizations and then the Roman Empire. But as has already been mentioned the Muslim contribution to Western civilization was the preservation of this knowledge (and their own additions as well) through the dark ages when we destroyed it and I will also state that the Renaissance was brought on by Western contact with Muslim civilization (among other things).

The main reason I am rambling on is that, this highlights a point I like to make in Muslim forums; Muslim civilization ruled vast portions of the world when Muslims studied Socrates, Aristotle, Plato and others alongside the Quran and Sunnah.

Take from that what you will. But in my opinion an open mind goes a long way in the world.
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