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lavikor201
02-05-2007, 07:57 PM
G-d is the greatest. Therefore, when someone insults G-d or a prophet, is it nessesary to respond by being violent. Or even respond at all?

I mean who am I to try and defend G-d. G-d doesn't need me to defend him. He is the greater than anyone who could attack him. Therefore, my philosphy is to follow the laws of Judaism and try to make the world a better place. If someone isnults my religion... so... Big deal. G-d doesn't need me to defend him and his word.

It just seems like a current issue.
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AHMED_GUREY
02-05-2007, 08:03 PM
Would you allow someone to spread lies or insults about any of your family members?

evendo in reality it has no effect on Allah swt the way lies and insults have on human beings and their reputation i still think it's still important that you defend Allah swt's name by correcting whatever that was said by the individuals attacking your religion
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akulion
02-05-2007, 08:06 PM
It is only natural that a person gets angry when someone starts insulting their beliefs.

So it is only a natural reaction.

Also we have to uphold the truth and abolish the falsehoods.

So it is best to clear peoples misconceptions by explaining to them things, so that through logical arguments they have no grounds to stand upon. And after that if they continue their insults then they prove themselves to be fools
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wilberhum
02-05-2007, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Would you allow someone to spread lies or insults about any of your family members?

evendo in reality it has no effect on Allah swt the way lies and insults have on human beings and their reputation i still think it's still important that you defend Allah swt's name by correcting whatever that was said by the individuals attacking your religion
No matter what anyone says about my wife, whom I love dearly, I'm not going to kill them of burn down there house.

I agree with Lavikor, god does not need me to defend me.
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lavikor201
02-05-2007, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Would you allow someone to spread lies or insults about any of your family members?

evendo in reality it has no effect on Allah swt the way lies and insults have on human beings and their reputation i still think it's still important that you defend Allah swt's name by correcting whatever that was said by the individuals attacking your religion
My family members are not G-d. G-d is the most powerful being ever. So why would he need a mortal to defend him?
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Keltoi
02-05-2007, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
My family members are not G-d. G-d is the most powerful being ever. So why would he need a mortal to defend him?
I would say many people are so concerned with their identity, and how that identity is percieved by others, that they will view any attack upon that identity as an attack upon themselves. Of course God does not need defending, but most of these violent responses to percieved attacks upon God aren't about defending God, but about defending their identity. Just my two cents.
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AHMED_GUREY
02-05-2007, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
No matter what anyone says about my wife, whom I love dearly, I'm not going to kill them of burn down there house.

I agree with Lavikor, god does not need me to defend me.
wow that's pretty intense i hope i didn't spark this part of your reply with my post

bassicly my analogy was..

Someone you know calls your wife a...(insert insult) because of this and that... in front of others

and if your present ..

you ''should'' reply( if you were me!) no she not a (insert insult) and you come with corroborating evidence to refute the silly claims projected at your wife by the person you know

why miss this golden opportunity to discredit this liar?

no killings or burned houses involved, if somebody insults your religion you should refute whatever was said in a calm way and in the process you might change this persons mindset


Originally Posted by lavikor201
My family members are not G-d. G-d is the most powerful being ever. So why would he need a mortal to defend him?
Why need Prophets?? when He is the one who created our minds and therefore could program us to be all Muslims or all Jews or all Christians etc etc

you show your dedication love and respect by defending him and that's why it's important you discredit or refute insults against your religion
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snakelegs
02-05-2007, 08:51 PM
i also find it incomprehensible that god (or the prophet) need defending, tho certainly people have a right to speak up or correct ignorant accusations if they feel insulted when someone insults their religion, and there really is no excuse to insult another religion.
all 3 of the "western" religions have the blasphemy concept, which i also don't understand.
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eagleye
02-05-2007, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
G-d is the greatest. Therefore, when someone insults G-d or a prophet, is it nessesary to respond by being violent. Or even respond at all?

I mean who am I to try and defend G-d. G-d doesn't need me to defend him. He is the greater than anyone who could attack him. Therefore, my philosphy is to follow the laws of Judaism and try to make the world a better place. If someone isnults my religion... so... Big deal. G-d doesn't need me to defend him and his word.

It just seems like a current issue.
a mature approach IMHO
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-05-2007, 09:27 PM
Don't make it look like its a bad thing to defend your faith. If someone says something fake, they'll move on thinking they are right. Why lose the opportunity to correct someone? No one says you should kill, so yea please leave the idiotic notion aside.
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lavikor201
02-05-2007, 09:29 PM
Why need Prophets?? when He is the one who created our minds and therefore could program us to be all Muslims or all Jews or all Christians etc etc

you show your dedication love and respect by defending him and that's why it's important you discredit or refute insults against your religion
Violence is counterproductive.

Don't make it look like its a bad thing to defend your faith.
Its is when defending someone from verbally attacking your faith involves violence.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-05-2007, 09:33 PM
Hellloooooooo, hiiiiiiiiiii, anyone alive there??? Did u not read my post. I already said that.
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lavikor201
02-05-2007, 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Hellloooooooo, hiiiiiiiiiii, anyone alive there??? Did u not read my post. I already said that.
I know, I am just sharing my thoughts.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-05-2007, 09:39 PM
Oh ok..oops lol. My bad :X
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AHMED_GUREY
02-05-2007, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
Violence is counterproductive.
red herring not my words not my advice

if somebody insults your religion you should refute whatever was said in a calm way and in the process you might change this persons mindset
:sunny:
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-05-2007, 10:17 PM
i dont think its so much the insults, i think its mainly the fact that they try to abolish the religion all together. even though the insults are very :anger: :anger:

:salamext:
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Nusaybah
02-05-2007, 10:51 PM
well if there is someone who you love dearly being insulted, you must stand up in defense of that person regardless of their power. If the Lord of All that exists is being insulted, and if you truly love Allah, you must prove it by defending the name of Allah. That doesn't mean Allah is weak and He needs our defense, it just proves how much we love Him and how much we are willing to sacrifice for His sake. If God is being insulted infront of you, and you don't get mad and try to defend God, that proves you don't care about Allah.
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wilberhum
02-05-2007, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by Nusaybah
well if there is someone who you love dearly being insulted, you must stand up in defense of that person regardless of their power. If the Lord of All that exists is being insulted, and if you truly love Allah, you must prove it by defending the name of Allah. That doesn't mean Allah is weak and He needs our defense, it just proves how much we love Him and how much we are willing to sacrifice for His sake. If God is being insulted infront of you, and you don't get mad and try to defend God, that proves you don't care about Allah.
How do you define, "Defend"?
Is it saying to the offender that they are wrong?
Or do you defend by causing physical harm or death?
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-06-2007, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
How do you define, "Defend"?
Is it saying to the offender that they are wrong?
Or do you defend by causing physical harm or death?
where did you get this from? no seriously, do you think this is what us muslims mean when we say defend?

well?
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Malaikah
02-06-2007, 10:57 AM
Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:

The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision .

Sahih Bukhari
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Zulkiflim
02-06-2007, 02:12 PM
Salaam,

So when Propeht Moses as, punished his people for worshipping other than god,,is wrong?

Is he not defending GOD?

Would you be more happy if they just worshipped the golden calf and never learn of the 10 commandments?

Hmm,,i would say that trully you are a follower of man religion..not Gods.

Do you also accept gay and lesbian as your faith leaders?
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Zulkiflim
02-06-2007, 02:45 PM
Salaam,

5. Sacrificing to false gods was a capital crime in the Old Testament (Exodus 22:20).

7. Blasphemy, or cursing God, warranted the death penalty (Leviticus 24:10-16,23)

8. The false prophet, specifically one who tried to entice the people to idolatry, was to be executed (Deuteronomy 13:1-11), as were the people who were so influenced (Deuteronomy 13:12-18).
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1974

So in all cases you are supposed to defend GOD,but here you are saying you need not.

As a countrpoint,if you do not need to defend GOD,and you feel that you are a "little old me" powerless and so on..

Why then are you so excessive in your support for Isrelais evil actions?
Infact why do you support the Israel?

In the past you siad it is for the return of your messiah,meaing you want your messiah to come but on the other hand do not do as god command..

Is that not a contradiction??
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wilberhum
02-06-2007, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
where did you get this from? no seriously, do you think this is what us muslims mean when we say defend?

well?
I think some Muslims mean "It is saying to the offender that they are wrong". But I also think some Muslims mean "to cause physical harm or death".

Not all Muslims think alike just not all agnostics think alike.

I defend, as long as physical saftey if not at risk, by "saying to the offender that they are wrong".

I noticed that you never answered the question. So how do you define defend?
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Zone Maker
02-06-2007, 06:23 PM
:sl:

I would like to share this poem (don’t know who the poet is):

ومن لم يوق الله فهو ممزق
ومن لم يعز الله، فهو ذليل

ومن لم يرده الله، في الأمر كله
فليس لمخلوق إليه سبيل.

Wish a brother or sister can translate it.

:w:
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lavikor201
02-06-2007, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,



http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1974

So in all cases you are supposed to defend GOD,but here you are saying you need not.

As a countrpoint,if you do not need to defend GOD,and you feel that you are a "little old me" powerless and so on..

Why then are you so excessive in your support for Isrelais evil actions?
Infact why do you support the Israel?

In the past you siad it is for the return of your messiah,meaing you want your messiah to come but on the other hand do not do as god command..

Is that not a contradiction??
Those are punishments for Jews, first. Second, you show your lack of understanding in the matter of Zionism and the Moshiach, so please state how you came to your conclusion.

Please tell us.
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Zulkiflim
02-07-2007, 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
Those are punishments for Jews, first. Second, you show your lack of understanding in the matter of Zionism and the Moshiach, so please state how you came to your conclusion.

Please tell us.

Salaam,

Again,you forget,irregardless of who Blashemy the punishement is death.

8. The false prophet, specifically one who tried to entice the people to idolatry, was to be executed (Deuteronomy 13:1-11), as were the people who were so influenced (Deuteronomy 13:12-18).
I am happy that you did not challenge the verses that command you to defend GOD.

So here i am asking you..

You say you want to support Israel,and want your messiah to return..

But yet disobey GOD,but aking up rules that God has set.

Are you following your religon or God's?

An do asnwer me,do you support gay/lesbian as your head of faith? or any faith leader?
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lavikor201
02-07-2007, 01:17 AM
Again,you forget,irregardless of who Blashemy the punishement is death.
Right, and? What does this have to do with the land of Israel and the Moshiach. I agains ask you to state your position and show me how you came to this conclusion based on the Jewish texts.

Thanks.

But yet disobey GOD,but aking up rules that God has set.
How am I "akin" up rules?

An do asnwer me,do you support gay/lesbian as your head of faith? or any faith leader?
Of course not, but I do not support putting them to death, or lighting them and there posesions on fire either.
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Pygoscelis
02-07-2007, 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i also find it incomprehensible that god (or the prophet) need defending, tho certainly people have a right to speak up or correct ignorant accusations if they feel insulted when someone insults their religion, and there really is no excuse to insult another religion.
all 3 of the "western" religions have the blasphemy concept, which i also don't understand.
It really depends on what you mean by insult. I'm not going to go around making fun of muslims for their beards or turbans etc, but I will say "There is no Allah" or "Religion does more harm than good" and some will see that as grave insult.
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Zulkiflim
02-07-2007, 06:40 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
Right, and? What does this have to do with the land of Israel and the Moshiach. I agains ask you to state your position and show me how you came to this conclusion based on the Jewish texts.

Thanks.



How am I "akin" up rules?



Of course not, but I do not support putting them to death, or lighting them and there posesions on fire either.
Salaam,

I guess i would have to piece this together for you huh.

Well either you do not wish to comprehend or you would rather be disdainful..

It is simple..

In one hand you hope to do well and pray for your messiah,but on the other hand you "akin"..should be making....new rules to uit you.

So in simple term,what do you think you can disobey GOD in,but still ask him for favours?

In what law are you willing to break in your "little old powerless me" stance,that you are willing to break?

If you wish me to expound further i will ,but i think you should get the general drift.

And despite 3 response,you ahve not asnwered,do you prsonally accept gay and lesbians? in direct contradiction to your book?

Also pls answer do you think that Propeht Moses as was wrong for defending GOD? by cursing his people for worshipping a calf?
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lavikor201
02-08-2007, 03:41 AM
In one hand you hope to do well and pray for your messiah,but on the other hand you "akin"..should be making....new rules to uit you.

So in simple term,what do you think you can disobey GOD in,but still ask him for favours?

In what law are you willing to break in your "little old powerless me" stance,that you are willing to break?

If you wish me to expound further i will ,but i think you should get the general drift.
Please elaborate. Please tell me how I am disobeying the Torah! Please! This ought to be good. Explain to me about what I am doing wrong or how my beliefs run contrary to Judaism.

And despite 3 response,you ahve not asnwered,do you prsonally accept gay and lesbians? in direct contradiction to your book?
Yes I have answered you. I personally do not accept them, but do not wish to kill or care about them either. That is there personal buisness with G-d. Can you read though, my earlier post:

Of course not, but I do not support putting them to death, or lighting them and there posesions on fire either.

Also pls answer do you think that Propeht Moses as was wrong for defending GOD? by cursing his people for worshipping a calf?
No of course not. His actions were not in G-d's defesne though, they were to stop his people from destroying themselves through idolatry which is why the ones who refused to renounce it were killed.
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Silver Pearl
02-08-2007, 06:51 AM
Greetings Lavikor,

I understand where you're coming from in terms of God being all powerful and he does not need our support or defending, he is above that. However, when a believer defends his lord, note that those who do it well are those who defend God through kindness, humility and patience. In the Qur'an in varies places it states; Innallaah ma3a sabireen (God is with those who are patient). I think naturally when we are practicing christians, muslims, jews we presume that if we retaliate with harshness and violence that God will be pleased with us but not necessarily.

Please elaborate. Please tell me how I am disobeying the Torah! Please! This ought to be good. Explain to me about what I am doing wrong or how my beliefs run contrary to Judaism.
I do not think you're breaking any part of your belief, rather you come across as being I-don't-really-care. Nonetheless most if not all practising jews, hindus, muslims stand up and defend God when he is being blasphemised. Do you mean to say that when you were a child and someone insulted your mother/father that you would not defend them to your capability, regardless of the fact that you may have been small? then how is so that your creator does not deserve your support, when he is above all humans you have defended in your life? It shows a sense of love, humility. Having said that I certainly do not think you go against any of your teachings by taking your stand, as far as I know about judaism.


Yes I have answered you. I personally do not accept them, but do not wish to kill or care about them either. That is there personal buisness with G-d. Can you read though, my earlier post:

Of course not, but I do not support putting them to death, or lighting them and there posesions on fire either.
Basically you are against it but you're being politically correct.



No of course not. His actions were not in G-d's defesne though, they were to stop his people from destroying themselves through idolatry which is why the ones who refused to renounce it were killed.
You make a valid point but his action re-inforce his dedication to his lord, commitment. The action of Lot (May the peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him) could be justified in both of our cases. No wrong answer, I say this feels like sitting in a philosophy class.

I apologise in advance if I wrong you with what I have written.

Regards,

Silver Pearl

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north_malaysian
02-08-2007, 07:03 AM
I know that most non Muslims are freaking out because of muslims behaviour defending Islam (burning buildings, people dies)...

But if you can see it happened in the same places/countries.... which is lacked of security, discipline etc ...

There were lots of demonstrations held in Malaysia.. but no building was burnt, nobody is dead... the only injury caused by Malaysian Muslims is boycotting Danish products...

I think the same applies to Muslims in Iran, Brunei, the Gulf, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Mali, Bosnia, Albania, Central Asia etc...
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Zulkiflim
02-08-2007, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
Please elaborate. Please tell me how I am disobeying the Torah! Please! This ought to be good. Explain to me about what I am doing wrong or how my beliefs run contrary to Judaism.



Yes I have answered you. I personally do not accept them, but do not wish to kill or care about them either. That is there personal buisness with G-d. Can you read though, my earlier post:

Of course not, but I do not support putting them to death, or lighting them and there posesions on fire either.



No of course not. His actions were not in G-d's defesne though, they were to stop his people from destroying themselves through idolatry which is why the ones who refused to renounce it were killed.
Salaam,

Well let see,do you read my post on the verses in your book that speak about the punsihment and to defend GOD?

My question is more on do you accept gay and lesbian in your faith,to be priest and so on?

So tell me,if in your view what is the definition of defence?

For me,it is simple,Propeht Moses as borught the peopl out of slavery,miracles was seen by the masses,splitting of the red sea and so on...then when Prophet Moses as went up to commune with God,the people reverted to paganism..worshipping a calf..a golden calf.

And when Propeht Moses as came down,in his horror he saw his people worshipping other and IDOLATORS..

Did he say,,LIttle old me,i cant do anything,should god wish it GOD will punish them.

But instead Propeht Moses as punished them in the name of GOD.

May i ask,is Prophet Moses wrong to punish the people for the Blasphemy and thereby defending the faith?

Or should have Prophet Moses let god punish them..


I have said it clearly to you,
What other laws in your religion would you change to suit yourself but still claim the right of GOD love?
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wilberhum
02-08-2007, 07:20 PM
I know that most non Muslims are freaking out because of muslims behaviour defending Islam (burning buildings, people dies)...
That is not defending, that's distruction and killing.
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lavikor201
02-08-2007, 08:12 PM
Do you mean to say that when you were a child and someone insulted your mother/father that you would not defend them to your capability, regardless of the fact that you may have been small?
Please tell me how you can compare a small child and parent, to human and G-d.

My question is more on do you accept gay and lesbian in your faith,to be priest and so on?
Okay I have said no about three times. Are you going to ask me to do so a fourth?

Did he say,,LIttle old me,i cant do anything,should god wish it GOD will punish them.

But instead Propeht Moses as punished them in the name of GOD.

May i ask,is Prophet Moses wrong to punish the people for the Blasphemy and thereby defending the faith?

Or should have Prophet Moses let god punish them..
Idolatry and insulting a faith are two different things. Very diffferent according to Jewish law.
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snakelegs
02-08-2007, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It really depends on what you mean by insult. I'm not going to go around making fun of muslims for their beards or turbans etc, but I will say "There is no Allah" or "Religion does more harm than good" and some will see that as grave insult.
actually i agree with your opinion that religion does more harm than good.
i don't believe that "there is no allah" but i see no reason why a person would be insulted by the fact that someone doesn't believe in god.
it's one thing to state your beliefs (or un-beliefs) and another to insult and i think most people can easily tell the difference, so it's not really an issue.
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Malaikah
02-09-2007, 12:30 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
actually i agree with your opinion that religion does more harm than good.
Would you say that to God Himself though? Would you ask God why He taught humans His religion and tell Him that there was more harm to it than good?:rolleyes:

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allâh) said: "I know that which you do not know."

[2:30]
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snakelegs
02-09-2007, 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Would you say that to God Himself though? Would you ask God why He taught humans His religion and tell Him that there was more harm to it than good?:rolleyes:

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allâh) said: "I know that which you do not know."

[2:30]
no - i would not say that to god himself - instead i would ask him why why religions exist and why some would be favoured over others, because this is something i have never understood.
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Malaikah
02-09-2007, 03:53 AM
How did God favour any religion over another? God created ONE religion, and all other religions are man-made, it isn't favouring!
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lavikor201
02-09-2007, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
How did God favour any religion over another? God created ONE religion, and all other religions are man-made, it isn't favouring!
In your opinion.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-09-2007, 04:14 AM
Lol, why would it be an opinion. Thats the whole reason there's confusion.
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Malaikah
02-09-2007, 04:33 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
In your opinion.
What is your opinion?
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lavikor201
02-09-2007, 04:36 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
What is your opinion?
That non-Jewish monotheistic religions that follow the seven laws of Noah are valid forms of worship and religion.

Lol, why would it be an opinion. Thats the whole reason there's confusion.
No, it is an opinion. Here is a quote from the Rambam:

All those words of Jesus of Nazareth and of this Ishmaelite [i.e., Muhammed] who arose after him are only to make straight the path for the messianic king and to prepare the whole world to serve the L-rd together. As it is said: "For then I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech so that all of them shall call on the name of the L-rd and serve him with one accord" in Zephaniah 3:9.

So basically, Islam can very well be a valid form for the goyam (non-Jews) to worship G-d, according to many opinions. The quote above tells us how it is a fufilled prophecy that before the Moshiach would come, the non-Jews would be led to monotheism. (See: Zeph 3:9)

Since the Moshiach has not come yet, we can assume this is because G-d has chosen not to completly fufill prophecy yet.
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Malaikah
02-09-2007, 04:50 AM
^But does that mean that Prophet Muhammad was a Prophet or not? Or is Islam still man-made, in your opinion?

If it is still man-made, you are suggesting that there is nothing wrong with humans inventing their own religions.

If his religion was authorised by God, how can God have authorised two religions that contradict each other?
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lavikor201
02-09-2007, 04:53 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
^But does that mean that Prophet Muhammad was a Prophet or not? Or is Islam still man-made, in your opinion?

If it is still man-made, you are suggesting that there is nothing wrong with humans inventing their own religions.

If his religion was authorised by God, how can God have authorised two religions that contradict each other?
Oh it is completly man made according to Judaism and I, however, that does not mean that these people were not met with sucess because of the partial fufillment of the prophecy, which still is not completly done yet. The reason there religions are 1st and second largest may be because G-d, but there beliefs are man made in my opinion. Yet still can be valid. Very confusing buissness.

The Rambam might have held that the Muslims did not even realise that the Quran is basically the laws that non-Jews must follow, with a bunch of man made stuff around it.
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Malaikah
02-09-2007, 05:00 AM
Then why did you say "In your opinion"??

Do you disagree that God only made ONE religion?

Or did you disagree on the fact that God only made one religion and He will only accept that people believe in that one religion?
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Zulkiflim
02-09-2007, 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
Please tell me how you can compare a small child and parent, to human and G-d.



Okay I have said no about three times. Are you going to ask me to do so a fourth?



Idolatry and insulting a faith are two different things. Very diffferent according to Jewish law.
Salaam,

So in your own word,you are powerless,and you wont defend your GOD.
Becasue you are weak. A man and not GOD.

Was any of the Prophets in the OLD BOOKS? God?

Were they wrong to take action to punsih and so on?
Were the other men whom were not Propehts wrong fro punishing in defence of GOD?

And you say,Idolatry and insulting a faith is differnet.

May i ask,when the Isrealites worshipped a calf and say you are better than Moses GOD...is that an insult?

Why would they worhsip a calf if in their own mind it is better?
Why would Propeht Moses punish them for their actions...

Defence of the Faith,defence of GOD.
But you wish to not see it the same way..

It seems you follow your own faith,man made,
Again,you seek GOD love bu not follow GOD laws..
Reply

snakelegs
02-09-2007, 07:41 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
How did God favour any religion over another? God created ONE religion, and all other religions are man-made, it isn't favouring!
you may know this, but i do not. you have answers. i have questions that have no answers, and i like that because i like questions better than answers.
though i believe in god, i don't understand the need for religion and i can't imagine god belonging to any, let alone any religion having a monopoly on god.
i am just stating my beliefs - not advocating them.
Reply

lavikor201
02-09-2007, 11:40 AM
So in your own word,you are powerless,and you wont defend your GOD.
Becasue you are weak. A man and not GOD.

Was any of the Prophets in the OLD BOOKS? God?

Were they wrong to take action to punsih and so on?
Were the other men whom were not Propehts wrong fro punishing in defence of GOD?
There is no law that says when one vocally insults your religion you act with violence.
Reply

lavikor201
02-09-2007, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Then why did you say "In your opinion"??

Do you disagree that God only made ONE religion?

Or did you disagree on the fact that God only made one religion and He will only accept that people believe in that one religion?
I believe that G-d will accept others that follow the seven laws even if they do not know they are following the Torah laws for non-Jews, but that is irrelevant. I believe one religious system was G-d made and other were not, but many agnostics, christians, and other beliefs would disagree. I was just pointing that out.
Reply

Zulkiflim
02-10-2007, 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
There is no law that says when one vocally insults your religion you act with violence.

Salaam,

[PIE]5. Sacrificing to false gods was a capital crime in the Old Testament (Exodus 22:20).

7. Blasphemy, or cursing God, warranted the death penalty (Leviticus 24:10-16,23)

8. The false prophet, specifically one who tried to entice the people to idolatry, was to be executed (Deuteronomy 13:1-11), as were the people who were so influenced (Deuteronomy 13:12-18).

[/PIE]

So tell me,when you say there is no law,would you deny the above?


Can you tell me,does blashemy be considered as "insult" or maybe "cursing GOD"..

There are 3 laws there,,with the verses required.

I would say that you are going to go by your own way,i would name you as a moderate Judaist...on who follow the religon os his heart and chooses which laws to follow and which to not.

Just like moderate muslim who say that Islam is archaic and the Quran need to be chaged.

Not there a thought,do you think your torah should be chaged to allow gays and lesbian a priest?

An intersting site..
http://www.glbtjews.org/article.php3?id_article=328

http://www.glbtjews.org/article.php3?id_article=368

[PIE]The Conservative Rabbinical Assembly’s Law Committee announced nearly three months ago that Conservative Judaism will ordain homosexual rabbis, and while a lot of ink was spilled explaining this decision and its ramifications, I saw little long-term analysis. This, hopefully will fill that gap. I view the leftward move of Conservative Judaism as a positive development for American Jewry - quite literally, it is the end of the beginning of Judaism in America and now we can finally grow into adulthood as a Jewish community.

[/PIE]
Reply

IzakHalevas
02-10-2007, 09:43 PM
Alright first off:

For the crimes mentioned above, they were for Jews, not non-Jews and witnesses were needed, and the criminal had to be told while in the act of commiting the crime it was wrong, for the death penalty to be carried out.

Second:

Conservative Judaism is not a recongnized Halachic movement. It is equal to an Islamic movement that has made a "Fatwa" that pork is Halal.

Orthodox Judaism is the only Jewish movement that follows Jewish law and is recongnized Judaism.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-10-2007, 11:02 PM
Conservative Judaism is not a recongnized Halachic movement. It is equal to an Islamic movement that has made a "Fatwa" that pork is Halal.
Who made a fatwa like that? Astaghfirullah, thats wrong.
Reply

Zulkiflim
02-11-2007, 06:31 AM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Alright first off:

For the crimes mentioned above, they were for Jews, not non-Jews and witnesses were needed, and the criminal had to be told while in the act of commiting the crime it was wrong, for the death penalty to be carried out.

Second:

Conservative Judaism is not a recongnized Halachic movement. It is equal to an Islamic movement that has made a "Fatwa" that pork is Halal.

Orthodox Judaism is the only Jewish movement that follows Jewish law and is recongnized Judaism.
Salaam,

Thank you for answering for lavikor,,=almost wanted to give up..LOL

We were never discussing about religious affliation.

Do you or do you not punsih those who blashemy?

Do you refute the command to defned GOD?

Well,lavikor did,how about you?


And for gay/lesbian being accepted only by Conservative Jew...

http://members.aol.com/gayjews/

There are more of such ill website that defy their own book commands..
Google for it

And if case you do not know,even i have heard that if there no more food in the world and your survival depend on it,pork is then allowed,,,but in dire circumstances.

Like no vegetables and so on,,,hey you can be a vegan..LOL
Reply

IzakHalevas
02-11-2007, 01:04 PM
Do you or do you not punsih those who blashemy?

Do you refute the command to defned GOD?
Of course, but Jewish laws on putting people to death to not exist anymore, because the Jewish courts do not exist anymore. When the Moshiach comes he will reestablish this.

If someone tells us a they do not believe in G-d, we shrug and walk away.

As for "Gay Jews", there are "Gay Muslims" to. I can only ask you to read the true and only position of traditional Judaism. Liberal Judaism (reform and conservative) pick and chose what they want to follow so Orthodox opinions are the only reliable ones.

Read these articles:

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=237&o=85374
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=237&o=200585
Reply

Zulkiflim
02-12-2007, 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Of course, but Jewish laws on putting people to death to not exist anymore, because the Jewish courts do not exist anymore. When the Moshiach comes he will reestablish this.

If someone tells us a they do not believe in G-d, we shrug and walk away.

As for "Gay Jews", there are "Gay Muslims" to. I can only ask you to read the true and only position of traditional Judaism. Liberal Judaism (reform and conservative) pick and chose what they want to follow so Orthodox opinions are the only reliable ones.

Read these articles:

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=237&o=85374
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=237&o=200585

Salaam,

thank for that answer..


[PIE]because the Jewish courts do not exist anymore. When the Moshiach comes he will reestablish this.[/PIE]

So in short when you do not have a court and you hav a book you claim HOLY,you do not follow it.


There forr you are choosing to follow the laws you like but do not follow the law you think do not need.

Would be much appreciated if you can provide the relevant verses that say Judaic laws are suspended till the messiah comes.

[PIE]It is important to note that from the point of view of the practicing Jew, there is no difference between a gezeirah and a Torah mitzvah. Both are equally binding; neither can be disregarded on a whim. The difference is generally in the degree of punishment: a violation of Shabbat was punishable by death under Torah law, while a violation of the gezeirah would result in a less severe punishment.[/PIE]


So are you a practising Judaist?
You you observe the Sabbath?

Did you know the law command your death if you should not.


http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm
Reply

rebelishaulman
02-12-2007, 01:22 AM
So in short when you do not have a court and you hav a book you claim HOLY,you do not follow it.
The Talmud is also a holy book and it tells us somone can only be put to death under Jewish law when the courts exist. They currently do not. Therefore, just like sacrifices on the Temple Mount can no longer be carried out because the Moshiach must rebuild the Temple, we will have to wait for capital punishment in Judaism to resume as well. Yet it only occured when in action about once a few years.
Reply

Zulkiflim
02-12-2007, 05:03 AM
Originally Posted by rebelishaulman
The Talmud is also a holy book and it tells us somone can only be put to death under Jewish law when the courts exist. They currently do not. Therefore, just like sacrifices on the Temple Mount can no longer be carried out because the Moshiach must rebuild the Temple, we will have to wait for capital punishment in Judaism to resume as well. Yet it only occured when in action about once a few years.
Salaam,

Wow,thank for that but again may i ask the verse/chapter and link?

thanks..

Also if you can,can you tell me what law is still followed and what laws are not to be followed.

And i wonder,,,,you will follow the laws of your BOOK only when your messiah return.
But not before.

Let me speak bluntly,then do you mean you will be a different Jew later than now?
You will be more observant than now?

This messiah shall casue you to follow all LAWS,which you now choose to abandon.

I guess it is a case of a man who takes drugs,he will continue taking it ,,till his parent come to visit,then the parents leaves,he continues again..

Also i find it curious,some Judasit would inovke the law in the torah,that GOD gave the Jews Israel,,,,and the murder and genocide of paletine is right..
But they forget other laws..
Reply

north_malaysian
02-12-2007, 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Liberal Judaism (reform and conservative) pick and chose what they want to follow
Just like Liberal Islam...
Reply

Zulkiflim
02-14-2007, 07:23 AM
Salaam edited wrong thread
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-18-2007, 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
No matter what anyone says about my wife, whom I love dearly, I'm not going to kill them of burn down there house.

I agree with Lavikor, god does not need me to defend me.

where, o where in islam (and iam assuming that both you and lavikor are refering to islam here) does it say that the muslims defend God because he is unable to defend himself. please bring forward to me an ayah, or a hadith where it states this.
as previously mentioned, it is only natural to defend those that you love and respect.
Reply

wilberhum
10-18-2007, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by maryam11
where, o where in islam (and iam assuming that both you and lavikor are refering to islam here) does it say that the muslims defend God because he is unable to defend himself. please bring forward to me an ayah, or a hadith where it states this.
as previously mentioned, it is only natural to defend those that you love and respect.
I never talk about what Islam says. I talk about what Muslims do.
Reply

ranma1/2
10-19-2007, 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
G-d is the greatest. Therefore, when someone insults G-d or a prophet, is it nessesary to respond by being violent. Or even respond at all?

I mean who am I to try and defend G-d. G-d doesn't need me to defend him. He is the greater than anyone who could attack him. Therefore, my philosphy is to follow the laws of Judaism and try to make the world a better place. If someone isnults my religion... so... Big deal. G-d doesn't need me to defend him and his word.

It just seems like a current issue.
i always figrued if god exists it was big enough to take care of itself.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-19-2007, 04:59 AM
hi,
like it has been said, it is only natural to defend those that you love. it dosn't negate the fact that they are unable to defend themsleves.:)
Reply

ranma1/2
10-19-2007, 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
How do you define, "Defend"?
Is it saying to the offender that they are wrong?
Or do you defend by causing physical harm or death?
sigh i just realized this is an old thread..

Anyway.. i find it best to defend with facts, evidence etc... or to just ignore.

Its like in school when someone might insult you or your family. Does it matter?

"Yo Mamas so fat....." or similar things are just silly to get upset over.

If it matters to you. Use logic, use evidence, use facts. Dont use anger.

"for anger leads to the darkside...." Yoda...
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-19-2007, 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I never talk about what Islam says. I talk about what Muslims do.
and where have mulims ever said that they defend God because He is unable to defend himself......
Reply

wilberhum
10-19-2007, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by maryam11
and where have mulims ever said that they defend God because He is unable to defend himself......
Why do you question what I never said?
Am I to assume that you think it is OK to kill people because they say "Mohammad .......................... or Allah ................................."?
Reply

Keltoi
10-19-2007, 09:44 PM
Killing anyone with the "justication" that it was "defending" God is just insanity to my mind. Regardless of the religion in question.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-20-2007, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Why do you question what I never said?
Am I to assume that you think it is OK to kill people because they say "Mohammad .......................... or Allah ................................."?

no, you never said it, but you did imply it.
you.
I agree with Lavikor, god does not need me to defend me.
me
where, o where in islam (and iam assuming that both you and lavikor are refering to islam here) does it say that the muslims defend God because he is unable to defend himself.
you
I never talk about what Islam says. I talk about what Muslims do.
me
and where have mulims ever said that they defend God because He is unable to defend himself......
Reply

Qurratul Ayn
10-20-2007, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
it's still important that you defend Allah swt's name by correcting whatever that was said by the individuals attacking your religion
Peace

I also believe in what Brother AHMED_GUREY has written, but you should speak to that person in a good way and no matter what they say alwasy treat them kindly and as equals.

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) used to treat everybody the same no matter what religion they belived in and was kind to them too.

Peace to all.
Reply

wilberhum
10-20-2007, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by maryam11
no, you never said it, but you did imply it.
you.

me

you

me
Since you never answered my question, I will assume the answer is yes.
Reply

barney
11-10-2007, 06:05 AM
Well, would god want people to be violent?
For christians We are taught to attempt to emulate Jesus. Jesus = God.
in the Bible, if you add up the numbers of confirmed killed by his own admission, God kills over 2 million people, Satan kills ten people.

In the Quran by the way, Allah kills 4 people.

So if we are to emulate the God of the bible, it's time for slaughtering people for being ungrateful.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
11-10-2007, 09:57 AM
:sl:
In the Quran by the way, Allah kills 4 people.
can i have the exact reference for that. :sunny:
:sl:
Reply

YusufNoor
11-10-2007, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Well, would god want people to be violent?
For christians We are taught to attempt to emulate Jesus. Jesus = God.
in the Bible, if you add up the numbers of confirmed killed by his own admission, God kills over 2 million people, Satan kills ten people.

In the Quran by the way, Allah kills 4 people.

So if we are to emulate the God of the bible, it's time for slaughtering people for being ungrateful.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Barney, your "way of life" tag says that you are agnostic, and yet you say we when referring to christians...

does that mean you are not sure if there is a God, but you are positive that IF there was one that it would be Jesus? ^o)

:w:
Reply

barney
11-11-2007, 01:01 AM
God drowns everyone on earth (except Noah and his family) Genesis 7:23, BT 30,000,000?
God rains fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone. Gen.19:24, BT 1000? Lot's wife for looking back Gen.19:26, BT 1
Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Gen.38:7, BT 1
Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10, BT 1
7th Egyptian Plague: Hail Exodus 9:25, BT 30,000? God kills every Egyptian firstborn child. Ex.12:29-30, BT 500,000?
God drowns Egyptian army Ex.14:28, BT 1000?
God and Moses help Joshua kill the Amalekites Ex.17:13, BT 1000?
For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000
Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT 2
A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23, BT 1
God burned to death an unknown number for complaining Numbers 11:1, BT 100?
God sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food. Num.11:33, BT 10,000?
God killed those who murmured with a plague. Num.14:35-36, BT 100?
A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath Num.15:32-36, BT 1
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27, BT 12+
Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10, BT 250
For complaining Num.16:49, BT 14,700
Massacre of the Aradites Num.21:1-3, BT 3000?
For complaining about the lack of food and water, God sent fiery serpents to bite the people, and many of them died. Num.21:6, BT 100?
God delivers the Bashanites into Moses' hands and Moses kills everyone "until there was none left alive." Num.21:34-35, BT 1000?
For "committing *****dom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT 24,000
Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+
The slaughter of the Anakim, the childen of Esau, and the Horim Deuteronomy 2:21-22 5000?
God hardened the king of Heshbon's heart so that the Israelites could massacre his people. (included several cities) Dt.2:33-34, BT 3000?
God delievered the king of Bashan so that the Israelites could massacre his people. Dt.3:3-6 60,000?
Massacre of Jericho Joshua 6:21, BT 1000?
God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+
God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000
God slaughters the Amorites and even chases them "along the way" as they try to escape. Joshua 10:10-11, BT 1000?
Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees Joshua 10:24-26, BT 5
Massacre of 7 cities Joshua 10:28-42, BT 7000? 30,768,279
God delivers the Hazorites. Joshua 11:8-12, BT 1000?
Massacre of the Anakim Joshua 11:20-21, BT 1000?
God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000
Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly Jg.3:15-22, BT 1
God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29, BT 10,000
Massacre of the Canaanites Jg.4:15, BT 1000?
God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT 120,000
God delivered the Ammonites to Jephthah to slaughter. Jg.11:32-33, BT 1000?
The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19, BT 30
The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson Jg.15:14-15, BT 1000
Samson's God-assisted act
Jg.16:27-30, BT 3000
"The Lord smote Benjamin" Jg.20:35-37, BT 25,100
More Benjamites Jg.20:44-46 25,000
For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19, BT 50,070
God delivered Philistines 1 Sam.14:12, BT 20
God forces the Philistine soldiers to kill each other. 1 Sam.14:20, BT 1000?
God orders Saul to kill every Amalekite man, women, and child. 1 Sam.15:2-3, BT 1000?
Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33, BT 1
God delivers the Philistines. 1 Sam.23:2-5 1000?
"The Lord smote Nabal." 1 Sam.25:38 1
God delivers the Philistines to David (again). 2 Sam.5:19, 25 1000?
Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10 1
David and Bathsheba's baby boy 2 Samuel 12:14-18 1
God sent a three-year famine because of something Saul did. 2 Sam.21:1 5000?
Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7
From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 70,000+
A prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kg.13:1-24 1
Baasha killed everyone in the house of Jeroboam "according to the saying of the Lord." 1 Kings 15:29 1000?
Zimri killed everyone in the house of Baasha "according to the word of the Lord." 1 Kg.16:11-12 1000?
God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29 100,000
God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30 27,000
God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 1
Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kings 1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 1
Burned to death by God 2 Kg.1:9-12 102
God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 42
Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1
God calls for a seven year famine. 2 Kg.8:1 10,000?
Jezebel 2 Kg.9:33-37 1
Jehu killed "all that remained unto Ahab in Samaria ... according to the saying of the Lord" 2 Kg.10:16-17 100?
God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+
Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 185,000
Saul 1 Chronicles 10:14 1
God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chronicles 13:15-17 500,000
Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20 1 31,919,765
"The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 1,000,000
God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chr.21:14-19 1
God delivered the Israelites into the hand of the Chaldeans. 2 Chr.36:16-17 1000?
Ezekiel's wife Ezekiel 24:15-18 1
Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2
Herod Acts 12:23, BT 1
Grand Total of Gods killing in the Bible:

32,970,000

_______________
Allah Killing in the koran:
Korah, Noah's wife and son, Lots wife

Total 4
Reply

barney
11-11-2007, 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Barney, your "way of life" tag says that you are agnostic, and yet you say we when referring to christians...

does that mean you are not sure if there is a God, but you are positive that IF there was one that it would be Jesus? ^o)

:w:
LOL! Nope, I say we, as I was brought up Christian, so I have christian teachings as experiences, which i was reflecting upon in the post. I'm also sure that there is a God, and that it is not the God depicted in the organised religions.
Reply

YusufNoor
11-12-2007, 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by barney
LOL! Nope, I say we, as I was brought up Christian, so I have christian teachings as experiences, which i was reflecting upon in the post. I'm also sure that there is a God, and that it is not the God depicted in the organised religions.
:sl:

Peace be upon those that follow the guidance,

thanks for responding. it helps to know where people are coming from when they post stuff.

re: I'm also sure that there is a God, and that it is not the God depicted in the organised religions
take one look at these boards and tell me if you think that Islam is an "organised religion"!

Allah Killing in the Qur'an:
Korah, Noah's wife and son, Lots wife
OK, that's just incorrect. you pro'lly got it from some website. it won't kill you to read the Qur'an!

:w:
Reply

barney
11-14-2007, 06:52 AM
Korah's death:
28:79 Then went he forth before his people in his pomp. Those who were desirous of the life of the world said: Ah, would that we had the like of what hath been given unto Korah! Lo! he is lord of rare good fortune.
28:80 But those who had been given knowledge said: Woe unto you! The reward of Allah for him who believeth and doeth right is better, and only the steadfast will obtain it.
28:81 So We caused the earth to swallow him and his dwelling-place. Then he had no host to help him against Allah, nor was he of those who can save themselves.

Noah's Son's Death
11:42 And it sailed with them amid waves like mountains, and Noah cried unto his son - and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. Those who drowned in
the flood were disbelievers.
11:43 He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. (Noah) said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned

Lot's Wife's Death.
66:10 Allah citeth an example for those who disbelieve: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot, who were under two of Our righteous slaves yet betrayed them so that they (the husbands) availed them naught against Allah and it was said (unto them): Enter the Fire along with those who enter.

I know i was reading about Noah's wife too, but i cant find the passage.
So perhaps it's only 3 people, as Opposed to the Bibles 2.9 million.

Regards
Reply

YusufNoor
11-18-2007, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Korah's death:
28:79 Then went he forth before his people in his pomp. Those who were desirous of the life of the world said: Ah, would that we had the like of what hath been given unto Korah! Lo! he is lord of rare good fortune.
28:80 But those who had been given knowledge said: Woe unto you! The reward of Allah for him who believeth and doeth right is better, and only the steadfast will obtain it.
28:81 So We caused the earth to swallow him and his dwelling-place. Then he had no host to help him against Allah, nor was he of those who can save themselves.

Noah's Son's Death
11:42 And it sailed with them amid waves like mountains, and Noah cried unto his son - and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. Those who drowned in
the flood were disbelievers.
11:43 He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. (Noah) said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned

Lot's Wife's Death.
66:10 Allah citeth an example for those who disbelieve: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot, who were under two of Our righteous slaves yet betrayed them so that they (the husbands) availed them naught against Allah and it was said (unto them): Enter the Fire along with those who enter.

I know i was reading about Noah's wife too, but i cant find the passage.
So perhaps it's only 3 people, as Opposed to the Bibles 2.9 million.

Regards
Hey Barney,

not to point out the obvious, but also not to flog a dead horse...

Noah's Son's Death
11:42 And it sailed with them amid waves like mountains, and Noah cried unto his son - and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. Those who drowned in
the flood were disbelievers
.
11:43 He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. (Noah) said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned
soo, noboydy but Noah's wife or son counts??? :playing:

Lot's Wife's Death.
66:10 Allah citeth an example for those who disbelieve: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot, who were under two of Our righteous slaves yet betrayed them so that they (the husbands) availed them naught against Allah and it was said (unto them): Enter the Fire along with those who enter.
just in case you were looking for a passage inre: Noah's wife! :okay:

also, in your opinion, the total killed in Sodom and Gamorra(sp??) plus the other 3 cities is...ONE?? :shade:

hmmm, actually, assuming your on a internet Qur'an, look up Ad and Thamud for starters.

:w:
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barney
11-19-2007, 12:35 AM
Noah's Son's Death
11:42 And it sailed with them amid waves like mountains, and Noah cried unto his son - and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. Those who drowned in
the flood were disbelievers.
11:43 He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. (Noah) said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned

sorry he's dead.

I did post a thread about the Ark which diddnt show up. The jist of it was . After stuffing the 5 million species of the earth of which mayby 700000 are clean, amounting to a total of 10,600,000 animals inside the Ark, the Ark sailed for 40 days and 40 nights. Lets say that each animal only excretes 25 gramms of solid waste. After 40days and 40 nights, the 3000 ton Gopha wood ark is carrying the 10.g million animals, assuming a average size of a butterfly, that means over 300,000cubic meters of animals in the barge the size of a corvette, would have produced waste dozens of times the weight of the ship.

No worries, after two months it crashlands on a mountain and according to genisis, Noah then goes and sacrifices a pair of each clean animal, Cos God loves the smell of roasted Kangaroo.
As he chases the duck-billed platypus and the polar bears around the desert with his axe, thanking God he has only another 7000000 creatures to waste in a sea of Blood for his creator, Noah thinks to himself.

Phew! Good Job im only 600 years old or i might not have the strength for this.
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