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FBI
02-07-2007, 11:24 PM
Are these two professions halal, since a Muslim would be protecting some doggy people who are guilty of crimes, and judges would be ruling with man made laws, please I don't want personal opinions just Islamic ones?
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deen_2007
02-08-2007, 12:55 AM
ive been waiting to hear too.....anyone?
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Eric H
02-08-2007, 04:47 AM
Greetings and peace be with you FBI;

I wonder about this question also but from a Christian perception. Not only do judges make judgements on man made laws, their own judgements are those of a man also.

They cannot know all the facts and all the intentions of the person said to be committing a crime, only God can know all the details.

Would God judge a judge in the same way that the judge judged other people?

Whoops too many judges in that last sentence.:smile:

In the spirit of searching

Eric
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aamirsaab
02-09-2007, 03:48 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by FBI
Are these two professions halal, since a Muslim would be protecting some doggy people who are guilty of crimes, and judges would be ruling with man made laws, please I don't want personal opinions just Islamic ones?
It'd be considered halaal since their job is to keep society functioning (for a judge at least). Under Isamic law, a ruler or caliphate would have a similar job; keep his community/city/area of control or whatever you want to call it, intact as opposed to anarchaic.

With regards to lawyers, this is tricky since their job is less to do with justice than most people like to think. Their job is to do what is in the best interest of his/her client and so some would argue on it's level of 'haramness'. Though, it should be noted that as a lawyer you do not have to represent your client e.g. if you thik he/she is lying, you are not obligated to represent their case.

I do not know the exact islamic ruling on lawyers, however.
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bint_muhammed
02-09-2007, 03:51 PM
this is so worrying because i've applied for law at uni, what shold i do? anyone with more info?
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aamirsaab
02-09-2007, 04:02 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by ya_Giney
this is so worrying because i've applied for law at uni, what shold i do? anyone with more info?
Studying law is not haram; my brother is in his 3rd year :D
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bint_muhammed
02-09-2007, 09:32 PM
yeah but i'm intending to becaome a lawyer or solicitor dats ok ryt?
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aamirsaab
02-09-2007, 10:11 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by ya_Giney
yeah but i'm intending to becaome a lawyer or solicitor dats ok ryt?
It should be.

Though, I'm aware of certain muslims who would disagree, but I've plenty of counter-arguments to put them down with.

Anywho, reeling it back on topic...
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itsme
02-11-2007, 05:42 AM
if you take up only those cases wherein you believe your clients are right in their claims and you are not "protecting some doggy people who are guilty of crimes" then there's nothing haraam in the job.
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Malaikah
02-11-2007, 07:25 AM
Working as a lawyer in a country that is ruled by something other than that which Allaah has revealed

Question:
Is it permissible for me to work as a lawyer in a country that is ruled by something other than that which Allaah has revealed? And is my income halaal or haraam?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

If a person works as an agent on behalf of another person and is what is known as a lawyer in a case in a country that is governed by man-made laws that go against Islamic sharee’ah, in every case in which he defends falsehood knowingly, relying in his defence on man-made laws, he is a kaafir if he regards doing that as being something permissible, or if he is heedless and does not care that he is going against the Qur’aan and Sunnah and following the laws that have been promulgated by man. Whatever he earns for doing that is haraam income.

In every case in which he defends falsehood knowingly, believing it is haraam but motivated by greed to earn money by winning on the case, he is a sinner who is committing a major sin, and whatever he earns is haraam income and it is not permissible for him to take it.

If he defends his client in a case in which he believes that he is in the right in shar’i terms, and he strives according to what he knows from the evidence of sharee’ah, then he will be rewarded for that, excused for his mistakes, and he is entitled to be paid for his defence.

If he defends his brother’s rights and believes that he is right, then he will be rewarded and is entitled to the payment that he has agreed upon with his client.


From Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 23/497.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=42521&ln=eng
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Malaikah
02-11-2007, 07:27 AM
Is it permissible to work as a lawyer?

Question:
I hope that you can advise me about this serious issue that I am asking about. There is an answer to a question like mine, but I want to have further clarification on a few issues, so please not refrain from answering me because of that. I graduated from law school a few years ago and I am now working – part-time – as a lawyer. At the time when I entered this college I did not have proper understanding of my religion, then after I graduated I found out that judging according to something other than that which Allaah has revealed is a major sin. I found out that many laws in my country go against the laws of Allaah and transgress His sacred limits. I wondered whether it is permissible for me in this situation to work as a lawyer with what that involves of referring for judgement to something other than the laws of Allaah. If I work with the laws that go against sharee’ah will I incur sin as a result? But before you advise me about that, I would like to explain some other things – whether I am right or wrong about them – so that you will know what thoughts are going around in my mind and you will be able to offer me sound advice. I do not approve at all of laws that go against sharee’ah, no matter what benefits could result from that law. If I practice this profession I will keep away as much as possible from the laws that go against the laws of Allaah. If I find a case concerning which the laws go against sharee’ah I will not accept it, no matter what the financial gains I may earn from that.
If I deal with the unjust laws in order to do attain people’s rights, not to bring about wrongdoing, will I be referring for judgement to something other than that which Allaah has revealed? For example, if I refer to the laws on taxes and customs, especially the laws on penalties that go against the rulings of Allaah in most cases – in order to restore people’s rights or to prevents people’s rights being lost due to the implementation of these laws.
After explaining the above, practising law by keeping away from issues that go against sharee’ah, except in cases of necessity to restore people’s rights, is that regarded as applying and referring for judgement to a law other than the law of Allaah? Is reading books of law and spending money on that regarded as wasting time and money on something that is not pleasing to Allaah? If I read these books – assuming that I am not going to practice this profession – simply to find out the laws and systems that are imposed on us in all aspects of our lives, whether they are in accordance with the laws of Allaah or not, is that regarded as haraam?
After all that, should I leave the law profession with no regrets and burn my many books, or regard it as something I do occasionally, seeking my basic living in some other way, so as to meet some of my needs and those of others in a way that does not go against sharee’ah, and to restore our rights and have knowledge of the laws that are imposed on us, so that we will not be exposed to exploitation or lose our rights , in addition to taking care of other benefits to which sharee’ah pays attention.


Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

We ask Allaah to relieve your distress and grant you a great reward. What you are asking about – working as a lawyer – has been discussed in the answer to question no. 9496.

Working as a lawyer is not haraam in and of itself, because it is not judging according to something other than that which Allaah has revealed, rather it is acting as a person’s deputy or representative in cases of dispute, which is a permissible kind of deputation or representation.
But the lawyer must be careful and make sure of the case before getting involved in it. If it is a claim regarding some right that has been taken away in a wrong manner, then it is permissible for you to argue on his behalf to have his rights restored to him and the wrongdoing stopped. This comes under the heading of cooperating in righteousness and piety. But if the case involves taking away people’s rights and transgressing against them, then it is not permissible for you to act as his representative, because that comes under the heading of cooperating in sin and transgression. Allaah has issued a warning to those who cooperate in this sin, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Help you one another in Al‑Birr and At‑Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression. And fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is Severe in punishment”

[al-Maa'idah 5:2].

To give you more peace of mind, we will quote fatwas from some of the scholars about this issue:

1 – Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked:

What is the Islamic ruling on working as a lawyer?

He replied:

I do not know of anything wrong with working as a lawyer, because it is acting as a person’s representative in claims and defence, so long as the lawyer seeks to do what is right and does not deliberately tell lies, as applies to all cases of representing or acting on behalf of others.

Fataawa Islamiyyah (3/5050).

2 –Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him) said:

What is your opinion on my working as a lawyer, where I appear before the civil courts in order to defend civil and commercial cases in which there may be riba involved?

He replied:

Undoubtedly there is nothing wrong with one person acting on behalf of another in cases of dispute, but it depends on the type of dispute:

1. If the case is well founded and the representative is basing his case on facts that he knows, and there is no perjury, lying or trickery involved, and he is representing the person in order to present his proof and evidence as to the truth of his claim or to defend him, there is nothing wrong with that.

2. But if the dispute involves some false claim or speaking on behalf of someone who is in the wrong, then this is not permissible. Allaah said to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) (interpretation of the meaning): “so be not a pleader for the treacherous” [al-Nisa’ 4:105]. We all know that if the case is a just one and he does not use any kind of lying or perjury, then there is nothing wrong with that, especially if the person is weak and cannot defend himself or establish his claim to what is his right. Appointing someone who is stronger than him to represent him is permitted in sharee’ah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable to dictate for himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice” [al-Baqarah 2:282]. Acting on behalf of a weak person in order to ensure that he gets what is rightfully his or to ward off wrongdoing from him is a good thing. But if it is other than that, i.e., helping a person who is in the wrong or defending wrongdoing or using false evidence, and the deputy or representative knows that the case is basically wrong, such as representing a person with regard to something haraam such as riba, then it is not permissible. It is not permissible for a Muslim to act as a deputy or representative with regard to falsehood or to act as a lawyer in transactions that involve riba, because then he is helping in the consumption of riba and so the curse applies to him.

Al-Muntaqa min Fataawa al-Fawzaan (3/288, 289).

Secondly:

The fact that you live in a country that is not ruled in accordance with that which Allaah has revealed and is rather ruled by man-made laws, does not mean that it is haraam to work as a lawyer if the intention is to attain rights and ward off wrongs. The person who has been wronged is compelled by necessity to refer to these laws in order to attain his rights, otherwise people would wrong one another with impunity and chaos would overtake the society. But if the law gives him more than he is entitled to, then it is haraam for him to take it. He should only take what he is entitled to. If he refers for judgement to these laws in order to attain his rights and ward off wrongdoing, there is no sin on the one who has been wronged or on the lawyer who represents him in a dispute by referring to these laws for judgement. Rather the sin falls on the one who replaced the laws of Allaah with these laws and forced the people to refer to them for judgement. Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) referred to this in his book al-Turuq al-Hukmiyyah (p. 185).

Hence we do not advise you to leave this profession, rather we advise you to carry on working in it, and to continue to advance by reading books and studying them, and learning from senior lawyers, for people need trustworthy lawyers who will defend them and restore their rights.

Your aim should always be to support and help those who have been wronged. There are glad tidings for you in the words of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever walks with one who has been wronged until he establishes his rights, Allaah will make his feet firm on the Siraat on the Day when feet slip.” Narrated by Ibn Abi’l-Dunya and classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb.

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=75613&ln=eng
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duskiness
02-11-2007, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by itsme
if you take up only those cases wherein you believe your clients are right in their claims and you are not "protecting some doggy people who are guilty of crimes" then there's nothing haraam in the job.
and how are you to know which client to believe??
protecting "doggy people" is a part of this job. If you don't see any meaning in this then don't do it.
There is no fair trial without solicitor. And everyone has right to fair trial.
There is also other answer: in everyone there is something worth defending. (although this may be too optimistic pov)

i think that being a lawyer is a walk on a thin line between light and dark side of force ;) (well, we are all always walking on this lins, but there are certain occupation that makes falling much easier, and this one is a classic example). But maybe some of as are called to go there, do it and still keep faith?
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Muezzin
02-11-2007, 04:56 PM
Speaking as a final year law student, if ethical issues put you off the job, either learn to find a way to keep your morals intact while doing the job, or don't even apply for the course.
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Malaikah
02-12-2007, 02:14 AM
:sl:

My friend is studying law and an experienced lawyer told her very directly that being a lawyer will conflict with her religious and moral beliefs. Lawyers are required to bend the truth etc to make their client look good.

Sad. I honestly couldn't believe it when I heard that, I always thought the impression that lawyers are liars was just a baseless stereotype.
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north_malaysian
02-12-2007, 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by FBI
Are these two professions halal, since a Muslim would be protecting some doggy people who are guilty of crimes, and judges would be ruling with man made laws, please I don't want personal opinions just Islamic ones?

I am a lawyer... and not all lawyers do criminal litigation...

But... all criminals need lawyers... but it doesnt meant that the lawyers should defend the criminals..but just to advise him the charges and punishments.....

Personally, if you believe that your client is guilty ... just ask him to plead guilty and try to mitigate the punishment.... (for not so serious crimes of course)
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Muslim Knight
02-12-2007, 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Personally, if you believe that your client is guilty ... just ask him to plead guilty and try to mitigate the punishment.... (for not so serious crimes of course)
In the end, it's the judge who passes out judgment. The lawyer can only defend so far as the evidence goes. The judge makes the decision after scrutinizing the papers submitted by both prosecutors and advocates.

Clearly, the judges bear greater responsibility.

Someone asked me once, what if the judge is swayed by the sweet talking of the lawyer? I replied almost immediately, "Then he's not fit to be a judge!"
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north_malaysian
02-12-2007, 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight

Clearly, the judges bear greater responsibility.
Being a judge is like having one of your leg in the hell and another one in heaven... any decisions you've made can effect your life...

For example, when the judge convicted a person and gave death sentence to a person, years later it's found out that there are new evidence showing the person is innocent .... but the person already being hanged years before... "it's better to acquit 10 criminals than to convict one innocent man"

Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Someone asked me once, what if the judge is swayed by the sweet talking of the lawyer? I replied almost immediately, "Then he's not fit to be a judge!"
Malaysia doesnt have jury system... and Malaysian senior judges (mostly) are among those who are not easily influenced by those sweet wordings. They look thru the evidence ... that's why many accused these days are acquited because lacks of evidence. I think the judiciary these days is more independent than in Tun M's era.

But, sadly most of the criminal matters would go thru magistrates first. And most of the magistrates (some of those are my friends) are too young and not really exposed to the reality world of criminal litigation.

They just have to maintain 3.00 CGPA when graduated... interviewed by AG's Chamber...and voila!!!... became a magistrate... Personally, these junior magistrates should undergo a pupillage period for at least 9 months (we lawyers have to be chambering students for nine months before being admitted to the Bar, but why not the same procedure given to the fresh magistrates?)

Some of my friends were asking me, that why I dont apply for magistrate position.... I just answered... I feel I'm incompetent of being one...
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syilla
02-12-2007, 08:03 AM
^^^erm...the wife of the ehem baginda is an ex-magistrate right?
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north_malaysian
02-12-2007, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
^^^erm...the wife of the ehem baginda is an ex-magistrate right?
from the news... yupp!!! I wonder in which court...?

But the judge presiding the trial is quite good...
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syilla
02-12-2007, 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
from the news... yupp!!! I wonder in which court...?

But the judge presiding the trial is quite good...
the way she acted in the court...doesn't seem like she is one...well i guess she is an ex.

too bad the trial is a close one.
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north_malaysian
02-12-2007, 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
the way she acted in the court...doesn't seem like she is one...well i guess she is an ex.
Magistrates or not.. they are all human beings... sometimes emotion can overrules rational


Originally Posted by syilla
too bad the trial is a close one.
what do you mean? I dont really get it..:embarrass
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syilla
02-13-2007, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Magistrates or not.. they are all human beings... sometimes emotion can overrules rational




what do you mean? I dont really get it..:embarrass
forgive me...for my bad english. :coolalien

too bad the trial is not open to public. (is this correct? :rolleyes: )
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north_malaysian
02-13-2007, 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
forgive me...for my bad english. :coolalien

too bad the trial is not open to public. (is this correct? :rolleyes: )
It's open to the public as all criminal matter (unless the asccused are juveniles) must be conduct in an open court.

But of course, there are no live telecast of the court proceedings as what being done in Indonesia and Iraq. But all details are reported in would be published in the Malayan Law Journal... and good reports were reported by newspapers too...

You are allowed to be inside to witness the proceedings but as the seats in public gallery are so limited and the case is soooooo "hot"... you have to come as early as possible to obtain a seat inside...
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- Qatada -
02-20-2007, 04:34 PM
:salamext:


Ruling on working as a defence lawyer

Question No 9496

Question:

When working as a defence lawyer, one may have to support and defend evil, because the defence lawyer tries to prove the innocence of the guilty person whom he is defending. Is the income of a defence lawyer who does that haraam? Are there any Islamic conditions attached to a person working as a defence lawyer?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Defence also means protection, and if a person defends and protects evil then undoubtedly this is haraam, because it means that he is falling into that which Allaah has forbidden:

“but do not help one another in sin and transgression”

[al-Maa'idah 5:2 – interpretation of the meaning]

But if he protects and defends good, then this is a praiseworthy kind of protection as enjoined in the aayah:

“Help you one another in Al‑Birr and At‑Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety)”

[al-Maa'idah 5:2 – interpretation of the meaning]



On this basis, whoever has prepared himself to do that must, before taking on a specific case, examine and study it. If the one who is asking for his defence is in the right, then he should take on the case and support the truth and the one who is in the right; if the one who is asking for his defence is not in the right then he may also indulge in a case of that nature but the lawyer may go against the wishes of the one who is seeking his defence in the sense that he is protecting this person to prevent him from falling into anything that Allaah has forbidden, and he does not defend him in the way that he wants. That is because the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Help your brother whether he is a wrongdoer or one to whom wrong is done.” They said, “O Messenger of Allaah, (we know what it means to help) the one to whom wrong is done, but how can we help him if he is a wrongdoer?” He said, “Stop him from doing wrong to others, that is how you will help him.”

If he knows that the one who is seeking his protection has no rights then he must advise him and warn him and put him off getting involved in this case; he should explain to him what is wrong with his claim so that he will give it up out of conviction.

Majallat al-Da’wah no. 1789, p. 61

http://www.islamqa.com/special/index...site=15&ln=eng
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north_malaysian
02-21-2007, 06:31 AM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


Ruling on working as a defence lawyer

Question No 9496

Question:

When working as a defence lawyer, one may have to support and defend evil, because the defence lawyer tries to prove the innocence of the guilty person whom he is defending. Is the income of a defence lawyer who does that haraam? Are there any Islamic conditions attached to a person working as a defence lawyer?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Defence also means protection, and if a person defends and protects evil then undoubtedly this is haraam, because it means that he is falling into that which Allaah has forbidden:

“but do not help one another in sin and transgression”

[al-Maa'idah 5:2 – interpretation of the meaning]

But if he protects and defends good, then this is a praiseworthy kind of protection as enjoined in the aayah:

“Help you one another in Al‑Birr and At‑Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety)”

[al-Maa'idah 5:2 – interpretation of the meaning]



On this basis, whoever has prepared himself to do that must, before taking on a specific case, examine and study it. If the one who is asking for his defence is in the right, then he should take on the case and support the truth and the one who is in the right; if the one who is asking for his defence is not in the right then he may also indulge in a case of that nature but the lawyer may go against the wishes of the one who is seeking his defence in the sense that he is protecting this person to prevent him from falling into anything that Allaah has forbidden, and he does not defend him in the way that he wants. That is because the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Help your brother whether he is a wrongdoer or one to whom wrong is done.” They said, “O Messenger of Allaah, (we know what it means to help) the one to whom wrong is done, but how can we help him if he is a wrongdoer?” He said, “Stop him from doing wrong to others, that is how you will help him.”

If he knows that the one who is seeking his protection has no rights then he must advise him and warn him and put him off getting involved in this case; he should explain to him what is wrong with his claim so that he will give it up out of conviction.

Majallat al-Da’wah no. 1789, p. 61

http://www.islamqa.com/special/index...site=15&ln=eng
Good answer... that's what I've learnt in the university...... that's why I dont do criminal matters...
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