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Chechnya
02-08-2007, 01:41 PM
Rebels' dilemma after Basayev death


After the death of Chechen rebel commander Shamil Basayev in an apparent Russian attack, a look at how Chechnya's conflict may develop.

Basayev's death leaves a gap in Chechnya which no other living rebel figure could fill.


Most Russians would not want to see that gap filled in their worst nightmares, associating him forever with the dead children of Beslan. In the words of Russian President Vladimir Putin, his violent death was "deserved retribution" for the school attack.


Izvestia newspaper writes that his "triumphant face" was to most Russians the terrifying symbol of a bloody era.


"There is simply no justification for what happened in the school and I know that Shamil Basayev regretted it in his heart and soul," says Akhmad Zakayev, foreign minister in the Chechen rebels' unrecognised government.


"Yet I do not believe that history will remember Shamil Basayev primarily for Beslan, but for his 15-year fight against Russian occupation."


Separatists particularly prefer to remember Basayev as the man who recaptured the capital, Grozny, from under Moscow's nose in August 1996.
Shaken by the sheer audacity and skill of that assault, Russia withdrew from Chechnya within months.


The question now is: could the rebels recapture it today?
A decade on, things look very different - not least the state of Russia's security forces.
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Chechen
02-08-2007, 05:08 PM
His death was a terrible shock for everyone but trust me the rebels are now as strong as before and continue carrying out attacks everyday. There's even a new video that appeared on the rebels' official website where they attack a group of Russian terrorists and destroy them. And don't worry Insha Allah we'll recapture Grozny and we'll get back every inch of our land.
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IzakHalevas
02-11-2007, 04:09 PM
Killing children in a school is resistance? That is the only sad thing about this situation.
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Chechnya
02-11-2007, 04:20 PM
Killing children in a school is resistance? That is the only sad thing about this situation
He didnt kill the children - the fact that some children did die, he offered to go on trial for that and even hand himself over to the russians (which was a certain death sentence)

i advise you look at his military career (which was even admired by the US militarily) rather than this unfortunate mistake for which he offered to pay with his life
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IzakHalevas
02-11-2007, 04:38 PM
Alright.
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SilentObserver
02-12-2007, 12:22 AM
Still glorifying this child killing, child terrorizing pig? Basayev could have chosen any number of ways to fight Russia, he chose the cowards way. He took the most vulnerable hostage, children. 1200 children and adults taken hostage on the first day of school. 344 killed, 186 of them children.

There is no legitimate defense of using children as pawns in a dangerous and violent situation to achieve what you want. No legitimate defense of a pig that would put children in harms way to make demands.

The first thing they did was shoot fathers in front of their children. Terrorized the children. Refused food and water, children were forced to resort to drinking urine.

He was a murderer and a terrorizer of children, the world is a better place without him.
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wilberhum
02-12-2007, 12:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Still glorifying this child killing, child terrorizing pig? Basayev could have chosen any number of ways to fight Russia, he chose the cowards way. He took the most vulnerable hostage, children. 1200 children and adults taken hostage on the first day of school. 344 killed, 186 of them children.

There is no legitimate defense of using children as pawns in a dangerous and violent situation to achieve what you want. No legitimate defense of a pig that would put children in harms way to make demands.

The first thing they did was shoot fathers in front of their children. Terrorized the children. Refused food and water, children were forced to resort to drinking urine.

He was a murderer and a terrorizer of children, the world is a better place without him.
Did you ever notice the common factor of all those that praise child killers and terrorists. :mad:
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imaad_udeen
02-12-2007, 03:48 AM
"Yet I do not believe that history will remember Shamil Basayev primarily for Beslan"

Yes it will, except in extremist circles.
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Count DeSheep
02-12-2007, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
He didnt kill the children - the fact that some children did die, he offered to go on trial for that and even hand himself over to the russians (which was a certain death sentence) i advise you look at his military career (which was even admired by the US militarily) rather than this unfortunate mistake for which he offered to pay with his life
Taken from Wikipedia:

It was at this point that unknown persons, probably members of the Russian special forces, fired the Shmel RPO flamethrowers at the school's roof (a total of nine empty disposable tubes were later found on the rooftops of the nearby apartment blocks), setting parts of the school ablaze. A chaotic battle broke out as the special forces sought to enter the school and cover the escape of the hostages after the task force members blew further holes in walls to allow hostages to escape. In addition to the special forces, army and Interior Ministry troops engaged, there were armed helicopters, and at least one tank (two T-72s and one T-80 from Russia's 58th Army but under FSB tactical command), as well as several BTR armoured personnel carriers.

Witnesses and journalists saw two T-72 tanks advance on the school that afternoon, at least one of which fired several times. Afterwards, the Russian government defended the use of tanks and other heavy weaponry, arguing that it was used after surviving hostages escaped from the school. However, this contradicts the eyewitness accounts, as many hostages were seriously wounded and could not possibly escape by themselves and many were kept by the terrorists as human shields, particulary in the area of the school cafeteria.

Many local civilians also joined in the chaotic battle, having brought along their own weapons, as the Russia's regular conscript soldiers reportedly fled as the fighting began.[9] The civilians claimed that the local police also panicked.[10] At least one of the armed volunteers is known to have been killed.

By 15:00, two hours after the assault began, Russian troops claimed control of most of the school. However, fighting was still continuing in the grounds as evening fell, including a lone machine-gunner still firing from an upper floor, and three hostage-takers who were located in the basement along with a number of hostages. They were eventually killed, along with the hostages they were holding.

During the battle, a group of thirteen hostage-takers broke through the military cordon and took refuge nearby; reportedly, the group included two women who tried to pass themselves off as medical personnel. Several hostage-takers were believed to have entered a two-story additional building nearby; the building was destroyed by tanks and flamethrowers around 21:00, according to the Ossetian committee's report.[17]



Sounds to me like both groups are to blame. Basayev deserves to die if he willingly put the lives of hundreds of innocent people at risk, but so do the Russians, who used flamethrowers and tanks. And then there's the matter of George Bush saying America would give "support in any form" to Russia. That didn't do much to discourage an attack on the school, did it? Then again, there's a lot I don't know about this. I shall continue researching this conflict.
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Chechen
02-12-2007, 05:47 PM
Yes of course the Russian lives are more precious than ours... Let's not talk about Chechnya let's keep talking about Beslan until our tongues fall out. I mean after all the Chechens only have been having a war that's been going on for 13 years but but Beslan lasted 1 whole day! That's terrible!!! And 80% of Chechnya's capital city was completely destroyed but who cares since in Beslan 1 building was destroyed! And after all the Chechens only lost 300 000 people among them 45 000 children but the Russians lost 300 people can you believe that?!?! The children at Beslan just had to stay in a building for a few hours before being killed by their own "soldiers". Chechen children have been seeing nothing but bombings, seeing their relatives dying, their mother raped in front of them and their fathers being shot in the head in front of them. I mean who the hell cares about all of that?? They're just Chechens anyways... Just some terrorist, islamist, extremist muslims...
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Count DeSheep
02-12-2007, 06:09 PM
No amount of killing done to the Chechens by the Russians justifies the killing of people who probably didn't even know of or support the Russian government's actions in Chechnya. If the rebels attack Russian government, that's fine, and I myself would be happy to jump in and help. But attacking innocent students crosses the line. That makes you almost as bad as the Russians--almost as bad, but as you haven't killed as many civilians, not quite.
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Chechen
02-12-2007, 07:04 PM
The rebels captured the school but they never killed anyone in it. Those are lies made up by Russians so that people hate Chechens which is in my opinion working perfectly so far. Putin ordered himself for everyone in the building to be killed with no exceptions. The Russian soldiers used flame throwers which were forbidden by the Geneva Convention and shot from the roof of a building next to the school. There are people who were there that day that claim this aswell. The rebels captured the school and all they asked for was for the genocide in their country to be stopped. But Putin proved what a barbaric dog he was by killing his own people. All the rebels wanted to do was put Putin in a position where he would be forced to negotiate they were sure that he would negotiate they never expected it to finish how it did. Now if the Russians enjoy killing their own people then that's not our problem...
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wilberhum
02-12-2007, 07:12 PM
If the truth hurts, just deney it. :mad:
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alcurad
02-12-2007, 07:55 PM
salaam
both sides share the blame.although obviously the russians bungled it badly from the start, and agree that it was them who killed most of the hostages,saying it was unintentional would just be like saying basayev didnt know he was putting children in the crossfire because he didnt think the russi's would do whatever they did.

still , basayev's death does'nt really make it worse for the chechens. they had several prominent field commanders like basayev , and they quarelled among each other to the point where they actually hampered the jihad.
with many of them now out of the picture though, the chechens can unite behind a single figure (i think its kadyrof now, im not sure so correct me if im wrong)since the reason the masses resent the invaders(murder,rape,...etc) remain.
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SATalha
02-12-2007, 08:07 PM
Whatever happened in Beslan was tragic, we need to focus on how we can bring an end to this war that has killed so many Chechens. Does anyone have any solutions? Why wont Russia just allow the Chechens to form their own Nations?
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Keltoi
02-12-2007, 08:11 PM
What needs to happen in Chechnya is to convince the Russian people that the conflict from the viewpoint of the Chechen people is one of national liberation. When Boris Yeltsin was president, the Russian people were very much against continued violence in Chechnya, but after the apartment bombings and other incidents, the Russian people were convinced it was a conflict against terrorism. Somehow, the Chechen people must seperate themselves from "Islamic jihad", and return to the slogan of national liberation and independence.
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Chechen
02-12-2007, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
salaam
both sides share the blame.although obviously the russians bungled it badly from the start, and agree that it was them who killed most of the hostages,saying it was unintentional would just be like saying basayev didnt know he was putting children in the crossfire because he didnt think the russi's would do whatever they did.

still , basayev's death does'nt really make it worse for the chechens. they had several prominent field commanders like basayev , and they quarelled among each other to the point where they actually hampered the jihad.
with many of them now out of the picture though, the chechens can unite behind a single figure (i think its kadyrof now, im not sure so correct me if im wrong)since the reason the masses resent the invaders(murder,rape,...etc) remain.

I agree with you that Basayev was a little responsible and he even offered to go on any international trial and answer for his mistakes but to say that it's entirely his fault, now that's wrong. And actually his death was a big blow but Chechnya isn't 1 man it's a nation of brave warriors ready to die for their country and religion. And there were no arguments over who is going to take his place because before his death he said he had chosen a someone who will take his place and who is exactly like him but still a little young. And Kadyrov isn't the guy since he is a traitor who works with the Russians and all the Chechens hate him so him taking Basayev's place would be a little shocking lol.
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Chechen
02-12-2007, 08:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
What needs to happen in Chechnya is to convince the Russian people that the conflict from the viewpoint of the Chechen people is one of national liberation. When Boris Yeltsin was president, the Russian people were very much against continued violence in Chechnya, but after the apartment bombings and other incidents, the Russian people were convinced it was a conflict against terrorism. Somehow, the Chechen people must seperate themselves from "Islamic jihad", and return to the slogan of national liberation and independence.

Nah it's not Islam that's the problem it's Putin and his controlling of the media. When Yeltsin was president the only good thing about him was that on Russian TV he allowed people to show what they want and it was free. That's why people showed the horrors that happened in Chechnya and saw videos of their soldiers dying in battle. So people were shocked and knew what was happening that's why they wanted to stop the war. But now Putin controls the media VERY strictly and before showing something on TV or writing an article in the newspaper it has to go throught the FSB ( Russian secret services) who would decide if it would be allowed. And putin has people believe that the war is over and that everyone is happy and the country is being rebuilt. That's why people in Russia don't want to stop the war since they think there is no war. Otherwise there is another part who know the war is still going on but they imagine Chechens as savages so they want them all to be killed and then a small number of people who actually know what's happening and try to stop the war and you see what happens: they get killed or thrown in jail. That's also another problem cause there are people who know what's heppening but they're too scared to say anything against Putin cause they could end up dead or in jail.
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Alexius
02-12-2007, 09:37 PM
The Chechen people who have been involved in rebellion are unjustified in their attacks. How about that school full of innocent children? Were they spared from this civil war? :cry: :'(

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius :shade:
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duskiness
02-12-2007, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
Why wont Russia just allow the Chechens to form their own Nations?
Such a naive question.... :) it is very uncommon for big nation (especially those considering themselves to be "empire") to let little nation chose their faith. Russia has lost a lot of land after 89. They don't to loose any more - not in such a important places like Caucasus.

Chechen - to be frank i feel...-let's say-... uneasy about your signature, about this part with drowning people in blood :embarrass
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Chechen
02-12-2007, 11:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
Such a naive question.... :) it is very uncommon for big nation (especially those considering themselves to be "empire") to let little nation chose their faith. Russia has lost a lot of land after 89. They don't to loose any more - not in such a important places like Caucasus.

Chechen - to be frank i feel...-let's say-... uneasy about your signature, about this part with drowning people in blood :embarrass

First of all what you explained is correct and about my signature it means that if the Russians kill us all then let them die along with us:D
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wilberhum
02-12-2007, 11:29 PM
Seeing posts that glorify people like Shamil Basayev, to me, are as disgusting as suggesting we should award the Medal of Honor to James Barker.
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SilentObserver
02-13-2007, 03:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
The rebels captured the school but they never killed anyone in it.
Lies made up by shameless liars.
The very first thing those heartless b******s did was kill the fathers of children, right in front of the children.

You make them out to be some kind of saints. They captured and took hostage a school full of small children. They killed fathers in front of children. They terrorized these children, refused them food or water. When the shooting did begin, they shot hostages as they ran away.

The words of one of the children at Beslan;
So the terrorist said,"If you don't keep quiet, I'll kill this man". A terrorist with a beard pointed his gun at the man's temple... and shot him.
No killing huh? Not a terrorist? Imagine the emotional and mental scarring done to this child. The terrorist has made the child feel as if he was to blame for the man's death.

Another child, a small girl says;
There was one girl, her mobile rang. She hadn't thrown it away... so they shot her.
A young boy takes a cameraman on a tour;
It was here that they killed my dad. Then they took his body... and threw it out the window.
You can try and cover up with these lies, but the world knows the truth. It is disgusting and revolting that anyone would try to find justification for what those dogs( Basayev and his thugs) did to those children.

For those of you that can, view the documentary entitled "Children of Beslan".
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imaad_udeen
02-13-2007, 06:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
Why wont Russia just allow the Chechens to form their own Nations?
Because doing so would possibly lead to more 'members' of the 'federation' wanting sovereignty.

This the Russians are fighting hard to avoid.
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imaad_udeen
02-13-2007, 06:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
What needs to happen in Chechnya is to convince the Russian people that the conflict from the viewpoint of the Chechen people is one of national liberation. When Boris Yeltsin was president, the Russian people were very much against continued violence in Chechnya, but after the apartment bombings and other incidents, the Russian people were convinced it was a conflict against terrorism. Somehow, the Chechen people must seperate themselves from "Islamic jihad", and return to the slogan of national liberation and independence.
It is silly to think the Chechen people should separate from Jihad.

It should fight jihad correctly and not kill non-combatants.

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you..."
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SATalha
02-13-2007, 12:32 PM
I think most of the fighting in that rigion involves the Army anyways. The Beslan incident was on-off. The appartment bombings i believe where the FSB, anyone that wants to investiage the bombing is silenced or killed.
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Keltoi
02-13-2007, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
It is silly to think the Chechen people should separate from Jihad.

It should fight jihad correctly and not kill non-combatants.

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you..."
The reason I said the Chechens should distance themselves from "Islam jihad" is because they were accomplishing alot on the PR front during the time of Boris Yeltsin. The Russian people overwhelmingly viewed the Chechen conflict as a war for independence. After the introduction of foreign "jihad" fighters and the acts of terrorism that brought with it, the Russian people changed their views. Now they believe Russia is fighting a war against terrorists and baby killers. The only way to stop that mentality is to regain the moral high ground. Unfortunately, Beslan has given Russia the moral high ground for the forseeable future.
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Chechen
02-13-2007, 05:44 PM
A member of the Russian parliamentary commission for investigation of the hostage crisis in Beslan has published a report confirming that the Russian terrorist organization FSB had fired rocket-propelled grenades at the school with children and that no child was ever killed by the Mujahideen.



The Novaya Gazeta newspaper published the report titled "Beslan: Hostages' Truth" by Urii Saveliev, a scientist specializing in physics of explosions. The author reported that the first two blasts in the school, which killed most of the hostages, were caused by the explosive projectiles fired from the 5-th floor of the building across the street. In other words, it proves the information provided by Mujahideen that the blood bath in the Beslan school was caused by a deliberate action of the Russian secret service FSB.



The report is based on the testimonies of the hostages, photo and video materials, blasts researches and calculations.



The first blast on the garret of the seized school was caused by a Russian shot from the 'Smel'(Bumblebee) rocket flamethrower at 01:03 pm local time. The second blast occurred in 22 seconds and was caused by the explosion of the assault grenade also launched by Russian invaders. Russian killers stormed the building almost immediately after the blasts.



The explosion caused a conflagration, which started at approximately 1:05 p.m. local time. An order to extinguish the fire was given almost two hours later at 3:10. The Russian terrorists shot at all the rooms of the school with shells, tanks and other weapons. Most of the hostages, who were able to escape from the building were killed by Russian shots from the outside of the school. Saveliev reports more than 300 hostages were transferred from the gym to other rooms, about 110 of them were killed by the Russian shooting.



The report is 700 pages long and includes over 300 photos.



The siege of Beslan's School Number One began on September 1, 2004. Three days afterwards the armed FSB gangs stormed the school killing 371 people, including 31 Muahideen who sacrified their lives protecting children from Russian terrorist murderers .

http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/.../28/5434.shtml


There are even Russians who claim that the FSB killed the children in the school. And just a few days ago I read that the deputy of the State Duma from the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, Jury Ivanov claimed that he had information which proved that the FSB were responsible for the death of the children.
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Keltoi
02-13-2007, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
A member of the Russian parliamentary commission for investigation of the hostage crisis in Beslan has published a report confirming that the Russian terrorist organization FSB had fired rocket-propelled grenades at the school with children and that no child was ever killed by the Mujahideen.



The Novaya Gazeta newspaper published the report titled "Beslan: Hostages' Truth" by Urii Saveliev, a scientist specializing in physics of explosions. The author reported that the first two blasts in the school, which killed most of the hostages, were caused by the explosive projectiles fired from the 5-th floor of the building across the street. In other words, it proves the information provided by Mujahideen that the blood bath in the Beslan school was caused by a deliberate action of the Russian secret service FSB.



The report is based on the testimonies of the hostages, photo and video materials, blasts researches and calculations.



The first blast on the garret of the seized school was caused by a Russian shot from the 'Smel'(Bumblebee) rocket flamethrower at 01:03 pm local time. The second blast occurred in 22 seconds and was caused by the explosion of the assault grenade also launched by Russian invaders. Russian killers stormed the building almost immediately after the blasts.



The explosion caused a conflagration, which started at approximately 1:05 p.m. local time. An order to extinguish the fire was given almost two hours later at 3:10. The Russian terrorists shot at all the rooms of the school with shells, tanks and other weapons. Most of the hostages, who were able to escape from the building were killed by Russian shots from the outside of the school. Saveliev reports more than 300 hostages were transferred from the gym to other rooms, about 110 of them were killed by the Russian shooting.



The report is 700 pages long and includes over 300 photos.



The siege of Beslan's School Number One began on September 1, 2004. Three days afterwards the armed FSB gangs stormed the school killing 371 people, including 31 Muahideen who sacrified their lives protecting children from Russian terrorist murderers .

http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/.../28/5434.shtml


There are even Russians who claim that the FSB killed the children in the school. And just a few days ago I read that the deputy of the State Duma from the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, Jury Ivanov claimed that he had information which proved that the FSB were responsible for the death of the children.
Oh but of course....the brave "mujahideen" died protecting the children from Russian terrorists! That is why they took over the school...to protect the children! We've all been fooled to believe the brave "mujahideen" intended those children harm! Thanks for this. This changes everything.

Okay, can we get back to reality now?
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Chechen
02-13-2007, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Oh but of course....the brave "mujahideen" died protecting the children from Russian terrorists! That is why they took over the school...to protect the children! We've all been fooled to believe the brave "mujahideen" intended those children harm! Thanks for this. This changes everything.

Okay, can we get back to reality now?

Yes they did capture the school what they planned was they scare Putin and ask him to stop the war he agrees and everybody goes home. They never went there with the intention in killing anybody. It's at the moment when Putin ordered for the building to be attacked and kill everyone in it the mujahideen helped people escape. The mothers of Beslan organisation claimed themselves aswell that the mujahideen picked them up from the floors and helped them escape from there.
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Keltoi
02-13-2007, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Yes they did capture the school what they planned was they scare Putin and ask him to stop the war he agrees and everybody goes home. They never went there with the intention in killing anybody. It's at the moment when Putin ordered for the building to be attacked and kill everyone in it the mujahideen helped people escape. The mothers of Beslan organisation claimed themselves aswell that the mujahideen picked them up from the floors and helped them escape from there.
The "mujahideen" rigged the gym with explosives. Seems they planned much more than to "scare" Putin. As for your stories from "Beslan mothers", perhaps you would do better to hear from the children themselves. Anyone who watched "Children of Belsan" has a pretty good idea what went on inside that school. Revisionist history isn't going to help the Chechen cause. They must come to term with what occurred in their name and attempt to win back the moral high ground.
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Chechen
02-13-2007, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The "mujahideen" rigged the gym with explosives. Seems they planned much more than to "scare" Putin. As for your stories from "Beslan mothers", perhaps you would do better to hear from the children themselves. Anyone who watched "Children of Belsan" has a pretty good idea what went on inside that school. Revisionist history isn't going to help the Chechen cause. They must come to term with what occurred in their name and attempt to win back the moral high ground.

They put explosives, filmed it and had the video passed to Putin to scare him. And the mothers of Beslan organisation is of mothers who were at Beslan and lost their child there and they accuse Putin and the FSB for the murder and say that the Chechens aren't the ones who should be pointed at. And about the movie Children of Beslan I haven't seen it and don't intend on wasting my time watching propaganda films which have one goal: bring hate against Chechens and it's working perfectly well. When the appartment bombings happened Putin accused the Chechens and at the time everyone thought it was Chechens who did it and now the truth came out and everybody knows those were explosions organised by the FSB and the truth about Beslan will come out at some point too. Sooner or later it will come out just like the appartment bombings.
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Keltoi
02-13-2007, 11:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
They put explosives, filmed it and had the video passed to Putin to scare him. And the mothers of Beslan organisation is of mothers who were at Beslan and lost their child there and they accuse Putin and the FSB for the murder and say that the Chechens aren't the ones who should be pointed at. And about the movie Children of Beslan I haven't seen it and don't intend on wasting my time watching propaganda films which have one goal: bring hate against Chechens and it's working perfectly well. When the appartment bombings happened Putin accused the Chechens and at the time everyone thought it was Chechens who did it and now the truth came out and everybody knows those were explosions organised by the FSB and the truth about Beslan will come out at some point too. Sooner or later it will come out just like the appartment bombings.
I might buy the propoganda excuse if the "Children of Belsan" documentary was produced by a Russian company, but of course it wasn't.

As for blaming Putin and the Russian military for the disaster at Beslan, I agree the decisions made during that event were horrible on the part of the Russian authorities. There is a pattern of really bad decisions when it comes to anti-terrorist operations by the Russian special forces. I'm sure they do share part of the blame for the death toll. However, the terrorists inside that school were murdering people from the moment they entered.
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SilentObserver
02-14-2007, 06:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Yes they did capture the school what they planned was they scare Putin and ask him to stop the war he agrees and everybody goes home. They never went there with the intention in killing anybody. It's at the moment when Putin ordered for the building to be attacked and kill everyone in it the mujahideen helped people escape. The mothers of Beslan organisation claimed themselves aswell that the mujahideen picked them up from the floors and helped them escape from there.
What a pack of disgusting, deceitful, wretched lies.

You know full well that they killed children's fathers immediately when they took the school.

It was here that they killed my dad. Then they took his body... and threw it out the window.
It is disgusting and sick that anyone would attempt to justify this savage attack on children. You should be ashamed.

You can try and cover up with these lies, but the world knows the truth. It is disgusting and revolting that anyone would try to find justification for what those dogs( Basayev and his thugs) did to those children.

You keep mentioning lies told by people about what happened as if it were truth. Why don't you do as I suggested a number of times and see what the children that were held hostage have to say? Do you have the courage to face the truth? You know that children will tell the truth. So, do you have the courage to hear what they say? Or are you afraid of what you might learn?

If you develop the courage, remember the name, "Children of Beslan".
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imaad_udeen
02-14-2007, 08:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
They never went there with the intention in killing anybody. It's at the moment when Putin ordered for the building to be attacked and kill everyone in it
I dont think Putin ordered the Russians to "kill everyone in it" [the school].

But the point is, he shouldn't have even been in position to do it, the Chechens stepped out of bounds by storming a school filled with children.

the mujahideen helped people escape. The mothers of Beslan organisation claimed themselves aswell that the mujahideen picked them up from the floors and helped them escape from there.
I would like to see documentation of that.
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Chechen
02-14-2007, 11:53 AM
BESLAN MOTHERS: PUTIN IS CULPABLE

MOSCOW – Shamil Basayev is Russia's Osama bin Laden. Yet as Beslan prepares to mark the one-year anniversary of the school siege he engineered, many of the victims' mothers are increasingly laying blame for the September massacre not on Mr. Basayev, but on Russian authorities.

They are stoking controversy by demanding that top leaders, including President Vladimir Putin, stay away from this week's service to commemorate the 331 victims, half of them children, who perished in the Sept. 1-3, 2004, terrorist attack. Their accusations have been fueled by leaks from two still-incomplete investigations, and evidence presented at the ongoing trial of the sole surviving terrorist, Nurpashi Kulayev. Both have raised sharp doubts about the official version of events.

Witnesses at Mr. Kulayev's trial have testified that Russian security forces, using flame-throwers and tanks against a school holding more than 1,000 hostages, may have been responsible for many deaths.

Others have fingered corrupt officials and inept police officers for allowing the terrorists to drive across a heavily guarded border and seize a school in the center of a large town.

"We want all those who are responsible to face justice," says Roza Sidakova, a spokesperson for the Beslan Mothers group. Ms. Sidakova lost her 9-year-old daughter when security forces stormed the school on Sept. 3.

The mood of disbelief is not confined to victims' families. A countrywide poll conducted last month by the Moscow-based Public Opinion Foundation found that only 15 percent of Russians expect the official investigation, headed by Alexander Torshin, the deputy speaker of parliament's upper house, to get to the bottom of what happened in Beslan.

Another 20 percent think the commission will discover the truth, but keep it secret.

"The reaction of the mothers of Beslan is a manifestation of the profound distrust many Russians are feeling toward the authorities," says Yevgenia Albats, a political scientist at the Moscow Higher School of Economics. "This is because the authorities have covered the truth about those events of a year ago in a thick layer of lies, which contaminates everything."

The official version holds that on Sept. 1, 32 terrorists linked to Basayev, a Chechen warlord, drove in a hijacked military-style truck from the neighboring republic of Ingushetia, evaded many police checkpoints, and occupied Beslan School No. 1. They took about 1,200 children, parents, and teachers hostage in the school's gym, which the terrorists festooned with makeshift explosives.

On the third day of the crisis, one of the terrorists' bombs accidentally detonated, prompting security forces to launch an ill-prepared 10-hour assault that succeeded in saving most hostages.

According to officials, security troops took all possible precautions to protect civilians, but hundreds of casualties occurred when the gym's roof, set alight by terrorist bombs, came crashing down.

But this picture is challenged by mothers - and many witnesses at Kulayev's trial - who say there were at least 50 attackers, many of whom escaped. The terrorists made use of weapons and supplies that had been prepositioned in the school, suggesting an inside job, they said. Kulayev testified that the first explosion resulted when a Russian sniper killed one of the hostage-takers who was holding down a bomb-detonator with his foot.

Kulayev's trial has brought stunning revelations. Russian Deputy Prosecutor General Nikolai Shepel was forced to admit that "Shmel" flame-throwers were used in the assault, after local mothers found several launch tubes and submitted them to the court. Mr. Shepel insisted the weapons fired only fuel-air explosives that day, rather than the incendiary napalm grenades they are also designed to use, and thus could not have caused the gym fire that killed most of the hostages.

But Stanislav Kesayev, who heads an investigation set up by North Ossetia's parliament, says that traces of napalm were found by medical examiners.

"As the days go by, we see that the testimony of Kulayev and other information coming out at the trial is producing a very different view of what happened," he says.

Under pressure from the mothers, Russian authorities also admitted that two T-72 tanks fired several cannon rounds into the school during the battle on Sept. 3, but say they did not shoot at the gym where hostages were held.

Mr. Kesayev says that his local probe, which Russian officials have denounced as "illegal," has been unable to establish who was in command of the security operation at Beslan. "We can't even say who was giving the orders," he says. "There is a general feeling here that Kulayev will be convicted, and that will be the end of it."

The head of the Moscow-based parliamentary investigation, Mr. Torshin, told the newspaper Izvestia this week that the Beslan mothers are acting from emotions and "not being logical" in their accusations against Russia's leadership. "The fact that this open trial [of Kulayev] is taking place shows that the authorities are not interested in keeping secrets," he said.

For Mr. Putin, whose popularity has been sliding for several months, the challenge posed by the Beslan mothers has been an embarrassment. The Kremlin last week countered by inviting the women to talk with Putin in Moscow on Friday, in the midst of the Beslan memorial services.

Susanna Dudiyeva, head of the mothers' group, says the women resent the timing of the summons, but, "We shall go to Moscow, overcoming our pain and offense," she told the online newspaper Gazeta.ru. "We will ask our questions, and we expect to hear answers."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0829/p06s01-woeu.html
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Chechen
02-14-2007, 12:18 PM
A few days before the second anniversary of the Beslan massacre, a Russian lawmaker and explosives expert said Monday, August 28, that Russian forces had fired rocket-propelled grenades at the school before the hostage-takers were able to detonate their bombs.



"The first explosion in the gymnasium of the Beslan school on September 3, 2004, was the result of a shot from a rocket-propelled grenade," Yury Savelyev, a member of the parliamentary commission investigating Beslan, told Echo Moscow radio, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).



This could have been fired by "the security forces," he said. "This could have been an accidental shot, or it could have been ordered."



The report comes a few days before the second anniversary of the tragedy in which 331 people, including 186 children, died in the September 1-3 siege at a school in the southern Russian town.



Most of the deaths occurred during the chaotic rescue attempt on the last day.



Chechen commander Shamil Basayev, who was recently assassinated by Russian forces, had claimed responsibility for the hostage-taking but blamed the bloodbath on President Vladimir Putin.



"The Kremlin bloodsucker destroyed and injured 1,000 children and adults, having given the order to storm the school for imperialist ambitions," he daid after the carnage.



"The storming was initiated by Russia's security services."



Savelyev has produced a 700-page report based on the testimonies of the hostages, photo and video materials, blasts researches, and calculations.



He concluded that the disastrous battle on September 3 was not sparked by the explosion of two bombs from the hostage-takers, as most officials insist, but two powerful rocket-grenades.



One of the two rockets was a highly destructive incendiary device that set fire to the gymnasium, leading to many of the casualties, said the MP.



Many more died when other parts of the school came under fire from tanks, rocket-propelled grenades and other heavy weapons, he added.



The rockets were fired from the 5-th floor of the building across the besieged schoolhouse, Savelyev averred.



A majority of the parliamentary commission has decided in contrast to Savelyev that the bloody battle was triggered when two bombs set by the hostage-takers exploded, forcing special forces to launch an all-out military assault.



The head of the commission, Parliament's upper-chamber vice-speaker Alexander Torshin, said last year that the hostage-takers set off the initial explosions and that the rocket-propelled grenades could not have started the deadly gymnasium blaze.



The commission, however, has since repeatedly delayed publishing its final report.



Savelyev insisted that "not one of the official versions is supported by science."

http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/.../29/5438.shtml


Now you've got the Chechens side who claim that the children were killed by Russian forces, you've got the Beslan Mothers organisation who were at Beslan, you've got people like this Yury Savelyev who even give scientific proof and Russian politicians like Jury Ivanov. Now even the Russians themselves are accusing their government for the murder of the children.
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Dawud_uk
02-14-2007, 03:20 PM
assalaamu alaykum,

may Allah swt forgive the mistakes of Shamil Basayev and grant him the status of a martyr, ameen.

may Allah swt raise up a generation of mujahadeen capable of carrying the banner of tawhid in chechnya, ameen.

may Allah swt inspire the muslims to help their brothers and sisters suffering in lands such as chechnya in any way they can, ameen.

may Allah swt grant the muslims strength and courage as well as the patience to withstand the evils of the enemies of Allah swt until such a time that the ummah is able to establish true islam and establish the khilafa, AMEEN!

Assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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Count DeSheep
02-14-2007, 03:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
A few days before the second anniversary of the Beslan massacre, a Russian lawmaker and explosives expert said Monday, August 28, that Russian forces had fired rocket-propelled grenades at the school before the hostage-takers were able to detonate their bombs.
Bombs? I do hope you don't mean the ones in the gym. You know, the gym where all the innocent hostages were kept? The hostages that were taken to "scare" Putin. Those hostages.

If the rebels wanted to scare Putin, why not take some of HIS men hostage? The civilian population is not the enemy. If I know that, there's no way a seasoned veteran rebel leader doesn't. Me thinks they wanted to scare the civilians. Me thinks their real purpose was to do what the U.S. did in WWII to the Japanese--incur so many civilian casualties that the civilians will demand the government surrender.

Strange...In class, we discussed an Ashanti proverb: One falsehood spoils a thousand truths. That seems to ring true, as I'm becoming against the Chechen rebels because of Beslan. Not their call for independence, just the way they do it. Like the U.S.'s way of "liberating" people.
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Chechen
02-14-2007, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

may Allah swt forgive the mistakes of Shamil Basayev and grant him the status of a martyr, ameen.

may Allah swt raise up a generation of mujahadeen capable of carrying the banner of tawhid in chechnya, ameen.

may Allah swt inspire the muslims to help their brothers and sisters suffering in lands such as chechnya in any way they can, ameen.

may Allah swt grant the muslims strength and courage as well as the patience to withstand the evils of the enemies of Allah swt until such a time that the ummah is able to establish true islam and establish the khilafa, AMEEN!

Assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Ameen brother. May Allah ease the suffering of every muslim.
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Chechen
02-14-2007, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

may Allah swt forgive the mistakes of Shamil Basayev and grant him the status of a martyr, ameen.

may Allah swt raise up a generation of mujahadeen capable of carrying the banner of tawhid in chechnya, ameen.

may Allah swt inspire the muslims to help their brothers and sisters suffering in lands such as chechnya in any way they can, ameen.

may Allah swt grant the muslims strength and courage as well as the patience to withstand the evils of the enemies of Allah swt until such a time that the ummah is able to establish true islam and establish the khilafa, AMEEN!

Assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Ameen brother. May Allah ease the suffering of every muslim. But don't worry all of this is just a test. This life is a test. Insha Alah we'll be rewarded in the afterlife.
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Chechnya
02-14-2007, 07:54 PM
Argued with the kafirs over this many times so i cant be bothered to go over that again - just gonna reply to muslim comments

"Yet I do not believe that history will remember Shamil Basayev primarily for Beslan"

Yes it will, except in extremist circles.
Bro imaad_udeen - sorry to say but your talking rubbish

firstly what is an "extremist"?

and would only an "extremist" remember shamil basayev for his 15 year fight against russian oppression instead of just concetrating on a mistake he made in Beslan.

I believe the quote of Ahmed Zakayev is correct - history will remember Shamil Basayev for his brilliant military ability which included re-capturing grozny from the russians - a feat that remains the best operation carried out by modern day mujahideen anywhere in the world.

Im not talking about "western" history of course - im talking about where it matters which is the north caucaus and the muslim world.
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Keltoi
02-14-2007, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
Argued with the kafirs over this many times so i cant be bothered to go over that again - just gonna reply to muslim comments



Bro imaad_udeen - sorry to say but your talking rubbish

firstly what is an "extremist"?

and would only an "extremist" remember shamil basayev for his 15 year fight against russian oppression instead of just concetrating on a mistake he made in Beslan.

I believe the quote of Ahmed Zakayev is correct - history will remember Shamil Basayev for his brilliant military ability which included re-capturing grozny from the russians - a feat that remains the best operation carried out by modern day mujahideen anywhere in the world.

Im not talking about "western" history of course - im talking about where it matters which is the north caucaus and the muslim world.
Good strategy. Don't respond to the "kafirs". The "kafirs" are likely to believe that the slaughter of children is an unforgivable offense. Perhaps Muslims call it a "mistake", but the "kafirs" call it cold-blooded cowardly murder. Terrorism will never lead to Chechen independence, only more death and mayhem on both sides.
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Chechen
02-14-2007, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Bombs? I do hope you don't mean the ones in the gym. You know, the gym where all the innocent hostages were kept? The hostages that were taken to "scare" Putin. Those hostages.

If the rebels wanted to scare Putin, why not take some of HIS men hostage? The civilian population is not the enemy. If I know that, there's no way a seasoned veteran rebel leader doesn't. Me thinks they wanted to scare the civilians. Me thinks their real purpose was to do what the U.S. did in WWII to the Japanese--incur so many civilian casualties that the civilians will demand the government surrender.

Strange...In class, we discussed an Ashanti proverb: One falsehood spoils a thousand truths. That seems to ring true, as I'm becoming against the Chechen rebels because of Beslan. Not their call for independence, just the way they do it. Like the U.S.'s way of "liberating" people.

You think the rebels never took Russian soldiers hostage? Of course they did they're not idiots. Once they took a big group of Russian soldiers hostage and Putin didn't want to save them. The rebels asked to exchange the soldiers for the innocent Chechen civilians that the Russians kept in concentration camps. Putin didn't want to at the end the rebels felt pity for the Russian soldiers and let them go but told them that the next time they caught them they would kill them. Putin killed his own children and not the rebels. If they let go adult Russian SOLDIERS then why wouldn't they let a bunch of children go. They just said that if the Russians stop the genocide in Chechnya then they'll let everyone go they never suspected that anyone could be barbaric enough to kill his own children.
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wilberhum
02-14-2007, 09:05 PM
Putin killed his own children and not the rebels.
How do you sleep at night?
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Chechen
02-14-2007, 09:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
How do you sleep at night?
What does sleep have to do with anything?
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Suomipoika
02-14-2007, 10:13 PM
Its amazing that some people on these boards complain about media giving bad image of Islam. But there is nothing in the media that Ive seen that gives so bad image of muslims as threads like these were child killers and rapists are glorified as martys and heroes.

Now I know that not every muslim thinks this way, but... imsad
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wilberhum
02-14-2007, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Its amazing that some people on these boards complain about media giving bad image of Islam. But there is nothing in the media that Ive seen that gives so bad image of muslims as threads like these were child killers and rapists are glorified as martys and heroes.

Now I know that not every muslim thinks this way, but... imsad
Well said. My thought exactly. There is nothing like glorifing child killers and murders to create a posietive immage. :mad:
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Chechnya
02-15-2007, 12:35 AM
Good strategy. Don't respond to the "kafirs". The "kafirs" are likely to believe that the slaughter of children is an unforgivable offense. Perhaps Muslims call it a "mistake", but the "kafirs" call it cold-blooded cowardly murder. Terrorism will never lead to Chechen independence, only more death and mayhem on both sides.
Good strategy. Dont read what i actually wrote - put words in my mouth and come out with a twisted post...:rolleyes:

If you bothered to read my comments you would understand what i meant - the last time this topic was bought up, the debate lasted about 10 pages mainly with silentobserver. I dont have time for another one of those 10 page missions so im just gonna pick and chose what i reply to.

Im not gonna totally ignore points made by the non-muslims here - if they bring up something i havent answered before, i'll pick up on the point.
As long as its the normal stuff, im not gonna bother with that.

Well said. My thought exactly. There is nothing like glorifing child killers and murders to create a posietive immage.
Interesting comment.

What are your thoughts on the people of America and the people of Russia ELECTING child-murderers to lead them?
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SilentObserver
02-15-2007, 04:03 AM
It is amazing how some people will attempt to distort the known truth to glorify child rapists and murderers like those that took the children at Beslan hostage. How disgusting. What a twisted filthy thing to do, admiring those that would harm innocent children, and attempt to justify what was done to them.
It is murder in the lowest form by cowardly vermin. May God punish them if any still live.
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Shamil Basayev, who was recently assassinated
To say that this terrorist pig was 'assassinated' gives him credit as someone that deserved to be alive. He was not assassinated, he was executed, and justice was served.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
may Allah swt forgive the mistakes of Shamil Basayev and grant him the status of a martyr,
Unlikely. The slaughter of children is unforgivable. It is disgusting that any person would want to glorify a person that would harm children. You should be ashamed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Ameen brother. May Allah ease the suffering of every muslim.
This shows the level of your bigotry and racism. You care only for the suffering of muslims. What of the others that are suffering? No prayer for the suffering of the surviving children of Beslan?

No children should suffer anywhere, nonmuslim or muslim.

There is no place in society for people that think it is ok to murder children and use them as pawns, and praise those that do such things. No place except prison.
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Count DeSheep
02-15-2007, 04:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Once they took a big group of Russian soldiers hostage and Putin didn't want to save them. The rebels asked to exchange the soldiers for the innocent Chechen civilians that the Russians kept in concentration camps. Putin didn't want to at the end the rebels felt pity for the Russian soldiers and let them go but told them that the next time they caught them they would kill them.
So the rebels let go a bunch of murdering soldiers. Not something to be proud of, especially if they're the enemy. Isn't willingly releasing the enemy without any kind of concessions in return called treason? Odd.

Putin killed his own children and not the rebels.
The rebels didn't kill any of them? Oh, wait. They were too busy wiring bombs around them and using them as human shields to kill them. I forgot.

If they let go adult Russian SOLDIERS then why wouldn't they let a bunch of children go.
I was about to ask you the same.

They just said that if the Russians stop the genocide in Chechnya then they'll let everyone go they never suspected that anyone could be barbaric enough to kill his own children.
If the Russians are as savage as you say they are (and as I believe they are), why wouldn't the rebels expect that? Why weren't they prepared to at least give the students an exit? Again, it looks like civilians were the only target at Beslan.
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Chechen
02-15-2007, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
It is amazing how some people will attempt to distort the known truth to glorify child rapists and murderers like those that took the children at Beslan hostage. How disgusting. What a twisted filthy thing to do, admiring those that would harm innocent children, and attempt to justify what was done to them.
It is murder in the lowest form by cowardly vermin. May God punish them if any still live.
To say that this terrorist pig was 'assassinated' gives him credit as someone that deserved to be alive. He was not assassinated, he was executed, and justice was served.

Unlikely. The slaughter of children is unforgivable. It is disgusting that any person would want to glorify a person that would harm children. You should be ashamed.

This shows the level of your bigotry and racism. You care only for the suffering of muslims. What of the others that are suffering? No prayer for the suffering of the surviving children of Beslan?

No children should suffer anywhere, nonmuslim or muslim.

There is no place in society for people that think it is ok to murder children and use them as pawns, and praise those that do such things. No place except prison.

Oh before I was a liar, a terrorist, a baby killer and now racist came to the list aswell. Interesting... I said let Allah ease the pain of all muslims because only muslims are suffering at the moment. Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Kshmir etc. They're all muslims and that's why I said let Allah ease the pain of all muslims.
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Chechen
02-15-2007, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
So the rebels let go a bunch of murdering soldiers. Not something to be proud of, especially if they're the enemy. Isn't willingly releasing the enemy without any kind of concessions in return called treason? Odd.



The rebels didn't kill any of them? Oh, wait. They were too busy wiring bombs around them and using them as human shields to kill them. I forgot.



I was about to ask you the same.



If the Russians are as savage as you say they are (and as I believe they are), why wouldn't the rebels expect that? Why weren't they prepared to at least give the students an exit? Again, it looks like civilians were the only target at Beslan.

Treachery?? How did treachery come in there? Basayev felt pity for the soldiers and ordered himself for the soldiers to be released. Who did he betray? Chechnes have to much honor to kill captures prisoners. And yes the Russians are savages and Basayev knew that they would kill anyone anytime but he never could imagine that they could kill their own children! He just didn't know that they were capable of doing something so terrible.
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Keltoi
02-15-2007, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Treachery?? How did treachery come in there? Basayev felt pity for the soldiers and ordered himself for the soldiers to be released. Who did he betray? Chechnes have to much honor to kill captures prisoners. And yes the Russians are savages and Basayev knew that they would kill anyone anytime but he never could imagine that they could kill their own children! He just didn't know that they were capable of doing something so terrible.
Chechens have too much honor to kill captive prisoners huh? Seems strange that there are videos on the internet of Chechen fighters slitting the throats of Russian captives...oh well.
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Count DeSheep
02-15-2007, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Seems strange that there are videos on the internet of Chechen fighters slitting the throats of Russian captives...oh well.
Also strange that there are videos of victims of the Russians--you know, like the ones that the Chechens have too much "honor" to kill? If the Russian soldiers are that bad, why not kill them when you get the chance? They kill civilians, and yet you let them go? Odd.
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Chechen
02-15-2007, 06:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Chechens have too much honor to kill captive prisoners huh? Seems strange that there are videos on the internet of Chechen fighters slitting the throats of Russian captives...oh well.

I have seen videos of Chechen rebels executing Russian soldiers along with another Chechen traitor because they had gang raped a child. I haven't seen any videos of Chechens slitting Russian soldiers' throats and have never heard any stories about those cases but there was probably something behind it like what I said about them being punished for terrible crimes.
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Chechen
02-15-2007, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Also strange that there are videos of victims of the Russians--you know, like the ones that the Chechens have too much "honor" to kill? If the Russian soldiers are that bad, why not kill them when you get the chance? They kill civilians, and yet you let them go? Odd.

The soldiers that they let go were barely 18 and were forced to go fight in Chechnya and like I told Keltoi the Chechens punish Russian soldiers for their crimes when they catch them. Those young boys didn't even choose to go to Chechnya. Because in Russia it happens often that once a boy turns 18 people from the Russian army come to take him to the army and send him to Chechnya and he has no choice. That's why most russian mothers pay doctors so that they write a certificate saying that her son has problems with his health so that they don't take him away.
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Chechnya
02-15-2007, 06:49 PM
Treachery?? How did treachery come in there? Basayev felt pity for the soldiers and ordered himself for the soldiers to be released. Who did he betray? Chechnes have to much honor to kill captures prisoners. And yes the Russians are savages and Basayev knew that they would kill anyone anytime but he never could imagine that they could kill their own children! He just didn't know that they were capable of doing something so terrible.
True - in the first war alone Shamil released over 400 russian soldiers to their mothers - he actually protected the mothers as they were being fired on by the russian soldiers in grozny! lol

Also Shamil ended the first war by defeating the russians thereby saving hundreds of thousands of lives of women and children...a great man
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Chechen
02-15-2007, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
True - in the first war alone Shamil released over 400 russian soldiers to their mothers - he actually protected the mothers as they were being fired on by the russian soldiers in grozny! lol

Also Shamil ended the first war by defeating the russians thereby saving hundreds of thousands of lives of women and children...a great man

Like he said... A great man he was. And no matter what you bunch of kafirs say it isn't going to change that whether you like it or not so if you don't like that fact then just stay out of the Chechnya threads and especially the Basayev ones because no matter what Chechen thread you go to you will see people remembering Shamil and they'll remember him as a hero forever.
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Count DeSheep
02-16-2007, 03:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
The soldiers that they let go were barely 18 and were forced to go fight in Chechnya and like I told Keltoi the Chechens punish Russian soldiers for their crimes when they catch them. Those young boys didn't even choose to go to Chechnya. Because in Russia it happens often that once a boy turns 18 people from the Russian army come to take him to the army and send him to Chechnya and he has no choice. That's why most russian mothers pay doctors so that they write a certificate saying that her son has problems with his health so that they don't take him away.
If there are soldiers that have no choice in the matter, why kill any soldiers to begin with?

They are being forced to do what they do, you say. Are they not just as much victims as the civilians are? Going on the assumption that you will defend killing other soldiers, I must ask, why not kill all soldiers? Eventually the young soldiers will kill civilians. They do have guns for a reason.

You say that the Russians are violent murderers, and that is true. They slaughter innocent civilians and refuse to allow anyone independence from their iron fist. So tell me, why defend them? If young soldiers like the ones the rebels freed are forced into the army, why turn them back over the the Russian government? Are you not helping the government by doing so?
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Chechen
02-16-2007, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
If there are soldiers that have no choice in the matter, why kill any soldiers to begin with?

They are being forced to do what they do, you say. Are they not just as much victims as the civilians are? Going on the assumption that you will defend killing other soldiers, I must ask, why not kill all soldiers? Eventually the young soldiers will kill civilians. They do have guns for a reason.

You say that the Russians are violent murderers, and that is true. They slaughter innocent civilians and refuse to allow anyone independence from their iron fist. So tell me, why defend them? If young soldiers like the ones the rebels freed are forced into the army, why turn them back over the the Russian government? Are you not helping the government by doing so?

Well first of all not all Russian soldiers are in the same situation as the ones I told you about. That is just a part of the army. And not all of the young ones that were sent there hate being there. There are also many young ones who are sent there but they're happy cause they're hoping to make some money. It's just that when the rebels captured those young Russian soldiers after battle Shamil came to the place to see them and when he came he saw these young boys standing in front of him who didn't even want to end up there, they never asked to go to Chechnya, they never wanted all of this. So when Shamil saw them he tried to negotiate with the Russians to exchange the soldiers for innocent civilians that the Russians were keeping in concentration camps. But of course the Russians refused but he let them go anyways because those people didn't deserve to finish like that. Now I also can't tell you everything since I wasn't there and don't know every detail about what happened there. But also one thing Russian soldiers are indeed savages but there are young ones who are sent there by force and who see the truth and try to help Chechens. For example there have been many cases when the Russian army was going to organise a cleansing in a village ( destroy everyhting and everyone) there would be soldiers like those young ones who have a heart that would go and tell the civilians that they should pack their stuff and flee because the Russian army was approaching. And Chechens pity young soldiers like that there were many times when a soldier like that would be taken care of by a Chechen family and there are many of those soldiers' stories where they tell about how the Chechens treated them like if they were part of their family. There are also Russian soldiers who deserted their camp and joined the Chechen rebels because they really see the truth of what their so called "army" is really doing in Chechnya.
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Count DeSheep
02-16-2007, 07:07 PM
So instead of letting the war drag on a bit longer, with the Russian army becoming more sympathetic to the Chechen cause little by little, the rebels sent a group to Beslan. Instead of being seen as a peaceful group, they gave the enemy a good example of how heartless and cruel the rebels are (not that I feel that way, but that's what the Russian government wants people to think). Instead of doing things the hard/peaceful way, they tried to do things the easy/violent way: put lives on the line, hoping that the Russians would give in after years of war over the lives of a few hundred children. Need I remind you of the fact that many adults view those younger than they are as being sub-human, and not worth the effort to save--unless, of course, there is positive publicity to be gained. The rebels were taking a HUGE gamble in Beslan and they knew it. They knew there was a slim chance, if any, of the government giving in. And yet they struck anyway. They've probably all but destroyed the good reputation they'd gained with a few Russians. If I, a person with no kind of training in areas like that, can figure out that rebel actions in Beslan were not smart at all, then surely the rebel leaders can figure that out as well.
Reply

Chechen
02-16-2007, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
So instead of letting the war drag on a bit longer, with the Russian army becoming more sympathetic to the Chechen cause little by little, the rebels sent a group to Beslan. Instead of being seen as a peaceful group, they gave the enemy a good example of how heartless and cruel the rebels are (not that I feel that way, but that's what the Russian government wants people to think). Instead of doing things the hard/peaceful way, they tried to do things the easy/violent way: put lives on the line, hoping that the Russians would give in after years of war over the lives of a few hundred children. Need I remind you of the fact that many adults view those younger than they are as being sub-human, and not worth the effort to save--unless, of course, there is positive publicity to be gained. The rebels were taking a HUGE gamble in Beslan and they knew it. They knew there was a slim chance, if any, of the government giving in. And yet they struck anyway. They've probably all but destroyed the good reputation they'd gained with a few Russians. If I, a person with no kind of training in areas like that, can figure out that rebel actions in Beslan were not smart at all, then surely the rebel leaders can figure that out as well.

Umm the sympathy thing I was talking about isn't very common. Those are very rare cases. I mean about 20 soldiers out of 300 000 soldiers doesn't mean that sympathy is growing largely for the Chechens. The Russians haven't started liking the Chechens and never will. Ever since Chechens and Russians met eachother they've hated eachother. Chechens because Russians have always been putting them through all sorts of torture and Russians since they're always taught to hate Chechens. There's a famous song in Russia that mothers sing to their babies to have them go to sleep and in one part of the song there is a part that goes: Look out my dear child because the savage Chechen is running at you with his sword. Now since Russians are babies they're taught to hate and fear Chechens. So I'm telling you there will never be good relations or sympathy between Chechens and Russians. Those young soldiers I was telling you about was just an example to show you how some people can open their eyes and see the truth and accept it.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 10:01 AM
Chechen is spreading lies, he is a one person propaganda machine. He is here to desperately try to convince people that Basayev is actually a hero, instead of the truth. The truth that Basayev was a child terrorizing, murdering, dog.
Chechen will try to convince people that taking children hostage with guns and bombs, and killing their fathers in front of them is justified, "if you really need to make a point".

People, for the truth, hear what the children that were held hostage have to say. Watch the documentary, "Children of Beslan".
Reply

Chechen
02-17-2007, 01:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Chechen is spreading lies, he is a one person propaganda machine. He is here to desperately try to convince people that Basayev is actually a hero, instead of the truth. The truth that Basayev was a child terrorizing, murdering, dog.
Chechen will try to convince people that taking children hostage with guns and bombs, and killing their fathers in front of them is justified, "if you really need to make a point".

People, for the truth, hear what the children that were held hostage have to say. Watch the documentary, "Children of Beslan".

Right... You have probably now accused me of everything possible in this world... Honestly I think you're crazy. No really I honestly think something is wrong in your head. May Allah help you.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Right... You have probably now accused me of everything possible in this world...
Well, there is one left, and you beat me to it. I think your crazy. You must be to defend a child killer.

format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Honestly I think you're crazy. No really I honestly think something is wrong in your head. May Allah help you.
The doctor told me the medicine would make people stop saying that.:raging:
Reply

Chechen
02-18-2007, 04:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Well, there is one left, and you beat me to it. I think your crazy. You must be to defend a child killer.

The doctor told me the medicine would make people stop saying that.:raging:

Wait you're being a hypocrite right now since you've been defending child killers this whole time.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-18-2007, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Wait you're being a hypocrite right now since you've been defending child killers this whole time.
I have never defended such a thing. Where in your imagination did that come from?
Reply

Chechen
02-18-2007, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I have never defended such a thing. Where in your imagination did that come from?

You defend people who have killed 45 000 children. So doesn't that mean you're defending child killers?
Reply

SilentObserver
02-18-2007, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
You defend people who have killed 45 000 children. So doesn't that mean you're defending child killers?
I assume you mean the Russian military? I do not defend them. Another weak lie.
Reply

Chechen
02-18-2007, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I assume you mean the Russian military? I have never defended them. Another weak lie.

Well sorry I must of understood wrong then. It's just that you were accusing Chechens all the time and defending Russians.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-18-2007, 07:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Well sorry I must of understood wrong then. It's just that you were accusing Chechens all the time and defending Russians.
Correction: I was stating the facts about the chechens that took the school children hostage, and defending the children and other civilians.
Reply

Chechen
02-18-2007, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Correction: I was stating the facts about the chechens that took the school children hostage, and defending the children and other civilians.

Ok I understand now, thanks for correcting me.
Reply

Count DeSheep
02-18-2007, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
There's a famous song in Russia that mothers sing to their babies to have them go to sleep and in one part of the song there is a part that goes: Look out my dear child because the savage Chechen is running at you with his sword. Now since Russians are babies they're taught to hate and fear Chechens. So I'm telling you there will never be good relations or sympathy between Chechens and Russians.
Wait, wait, wait...Are you saying that the Russian children are raised hating Chechens? Then it's a good thing them rebels went to Beslan to set the record straight. That really smoothed things over, it did. Taught the next generation of Russians that Chechens aren't savage killers. Really showed them how cowardly their own government is, targeting civilians, killing unarmed women and children...

[/sarcasm]
Reply

Chechen
02-19-2007, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Wait, wait, wait...Are you saying that the Russian children are raised hating Chechens? Then it's a good thing them rebels went to Beslan to set the record straight. That really smoothed things over, it did. Taught the next generation of Russians that Chechens aren't savage killers. Really showed them how cowardly their own government is, targeting civilians, killing unarmed women and children...

[/sarcasm]

Right... Ok let's say that the Chechens were responsible and they killed everyone and did it on purpose, let's just imagine that, would you hate a whole nation just because of the action of a few men?? That I think is racism.
Reply

Count DeSheep
02-19-2007, 05:48 PM
I do not hate the Chechens, I hate the rebels. The people who authorized and participated on the attack on Beslan are just as bad as the Russians that oppress the Chechens. Now, just so you don't jump on me for being pro-Russia, I DO support the Chechnian movement for independence, but not the way they go about getting that independence.
Reply

Chechen
02-19-2007, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
I do not hate the Chechens, I hate the rebels. The people who authorized and participated on the attack on Beslan are just as bad as the Russians that oppress the Chechens. Now, just so you don't jump on me for being pro-Russia, I DO support the Chechnian movement for independence, but not the way they go about getting that independence.

Wait I don't get it.. Hang on you're saying that you don't like the rebels for what they do but you still like them and support them?? Sorry I jus't don't get it I probably understood you wrong.
Reply

Count DeSheep
02-19-2007, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Wait I don't get it.. Hang on you're saying that you don't like the rebels for what they do but you still like them and support them?? Sorry I jus't don't get it I probably understood you wrong.
I support the cause, not the actions. Example: A man wants to buy a carton of milk from a crowded store. He should:

A. Shoot everyone between him and the milk.

B. Go around everyone.

Did that clarify it?
Reply

Chechen
02-19-2007, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
I support the cause, not the actions. Example: A man wants to buy a carton of milk from a crowded store. He should:

A. Shoot everyone between him and the milk.

B. Go around everyone.

Did that clarify it?

Ooh right I understand now thanks for clearing things up for me. By the way nice example lol
Reply

mahdisoldier19
02-19-2007, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
I support the cause, not the actions. Example: A man wants to buy a carton of milk from a crowded store. He should:

A. Shoot everyone between him and the milk.

B. Go around everyone.

Did that clarify it?
But the World can support the Bombings of thousands of Muslim women and children who are massacred and yet where are the world outcrys? 650,000 killed in Iraq, where are the WORLD OUTCRYS, Over Tens of thousands of women and children in Afghanistan, where are the WORLD OUTCRYS, Yet they teach this is Democracy (Liberation in a Kaffir way).
Reply

Chechen
02-19-2007, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
But the World can support the Bombings of thousands of Muslim women and children who are massacred and yet where are the world outcrys? 650,000 killed in Iraq, where are the WORLD OUTCRYS, Over Tens of thousands of women and children in Afghanistan, where are the WORLD OUTCRYS, Yet they teach this is Democracy (Liberation in a Kaffir way).

That is something I've been trying to explain earlier I mean 300 people die and for 3 years people have been talking about it everyday but on the other side 300 000 people have died so far and it's been going on for 15 years and the world is silent. That is something I don't understand.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
02-19-2007, 06:17 PM
And if i started a post challenging the Kuffar Actions, Somehow a Person would come and say No Akhi nononono This is unislamic, but when the kuffar bash against my Mujahideen brothers, they tolerate it.
Reply

Chechen
02-19-2007, 06:19 PM
That is something I can't stand. Defending ourselves is unislamic?? Since when? Where in the Qu'ran does it say that I must let people torture me for years and not dare say a word about it.
Reply

Chechnya
02-19-2007, 08:24 PM
do not hate the Chechens, I hate the rebels. The people who authorized and participated on the attack on Beslan are just as bad as the Russians that oppress the Chechens. Now, just so you don't jump on me for being pro-Russia, I DO support the Chechnian movement for independence, but not the way they go about getting that independence.
Since the official elected Chechen goverment had no hand in Beslan - condemned it and said it would put the people behind it on trial as soon as the war was over - and in fact has NEVER carried out an act of aggression against Russian civilians in over a decade of this war, it would be silly to lump all "rebels" together.

Do you support the official "rebel" movement which was headed by Aslan Maskhadov and is now headed by president Dokku Umarov?

Im just trying to understand where you stand on all this.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-20-2007, 01:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
But the World can support the Bombings of thousands of Muslim women and children who are massacred and yet where are the world outcrys? 650,000 killed in Iraq, where are the WORLD OUTCRYS, Over Tens of thousands of women and children in Afghanistan, where are the WORLD OUTCRYS, Yet they teach this is Democracy (Liberation in a Kaffir way).
Neither Count DeSheep or myself are "the World". Speaking for myself, this arguement that you have brought up is meaningless, I have never expressed any support of anyone being bombed anywhere.
By the way, your numbers are extremely exaggerated. For example; 650,000 in Iraq? Not even close. Not that I support anyone involved in that war, but let's keep it real, please.

format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
That is something I've been trying to explain earlier I mean 300 people die and for 3 years people have been talking about it everyday but on the other side 300 000 people have died so far and it's been going on for 15 years and the world is silent. That is something I don't understand.
I don't know anybody that talks about it ever. The only reason that we talk about it here is that you brought it up, and in particular, you defended those pig dogs that took the school children hostage. That is sure to get people talking.

format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
And if i started a post challenging the Kuffar Actions, Somehow a Person would come and say No Akhi nononono This is unislamic, but when the kuffar bash against my Mujahideen brothers, they tolerate it.
If your mujahideen brothers are those b******s that took the school children hostage, then you should expect bashing. They don't deserve to be spoken of in the same sentence as human beings. Anyone that would use children's lives as bargaining chips is a disgusting animal.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
02-20-2007, 05:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Neither Count DeSheep or myself are "the World". Speaking for myself, this arguement that you have brought up is meaningless, I have never expressed any support of anyone being bombed anywhere.
By the way, your numbers are extremely exaggerated. For example; 650,000 in Iraq? Not even close. Not that I support anyone involved in that war, but let's keep it real, please.


I don't know anybody that talks about it ever. The only reason that we talk about it here is that you brought it up, and in particular, you defended those pig dogs that took the school children hostage. That is sure to get people talking.

If your mujahideen brothers are those b******s that took the school children hostage, then you should expect bashing. They don't deserve to be spoken of in the same sentence as human beings. Anyone that would use children's lives as bargaining chips is a disgusting animal.

Exaggerated?

Study Claims Iraq's 'Excess' Death Toll Has Reached 655,000

By David Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 11, 2006; Page A12

A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.

The estimate, produced by interviewing residents during a random sampling of households throughout the country, is far higher than ones produced by other groups, including Iraq's government.


A man mourns his son Friday in Baqubah, a city north of Baghdad. The child died in random gunfire near a family home in the village of Khan Bani Saad.
A man mourns his son Friday in Baqubah, a city north of Baghdad. The child died in random gunfire near a family home in the village of Khan Bani Saad. (By Mohammed Adnan -- Associated Press)
Special Report
America at War


It is more than 20 times the estimate of 30,000 civilian deaths that President Bush gave in a speech in December. It is more than 10 times the estimate of roughly 50,000 civilian deaths made by the British-based Iraq Body Count research group.

The surveyors said they found a steady increase in mortality since the invasion, with a steeper rise in the last year that appears to reflect a worsening of violence as reported by the U.S. military, the news media and civilian groups. In the year ending in June, the team calculated Iraq's mortality rate to be roughly four times what it was the year before the war.

Of the total 655,000 estimated "excess deaths," 601,000 resulted from violence and the rest from disease and other causes, according to the study. This is about 500 unexpected violent deaths per day throughout the country.

The survey was done by Iraqi physicians and overseen by epidemiologists at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health. The findings are being published online today by the British medical journal the Lancet.

The same group in 2004 published an estimate of roughly 100,000 deaths in the first 18 months after the invasion. That figure was much higher than expected, and was controversial. The new study estimates that about 500,000 more Iraqis, both civilian and military, have died since then -- a finding likely to be equally controversial.

Both this and the earlier study are the only ones to estimate mortality in Iraq using scientific methods. The technique, called "cluster sampling," is used to estimate mortality in famines and after natural disasters.

While acknowledging that the estimate is large, the researchers believe it is sound for numerous reasons. The recent survey got the same estimate for immediate post-invasion deaths as the early survey, which gives the researchers confidence in the methods. The great majority of deaths were also substantiated by death certificates.

"We're very confident with the results," said Gilbert Burnham, a Johns Hopkins physician and epidemiologist.

A Defense Department spokesman did not comment directly on the estimate.

"The Department of Defense always regrets the loss of any innocent life in Iraq or anywhere else," said Lt. Col. Mark Ballesteros. "The coalition takes enormous precautions to prevent civilian deaths and injuries."

Source http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101001442.html

Its Also apparent that you do not understand the Politics of what i have stated. Look at the current situation of Iraq, where are the world outcry's of the countless deaths of Iraqi civilians, what about the millions of children from Iraq who suffered in the early 90s from the uraninum depletion. Is this Justice? Where in the world are those who seek to help refuges, while they consume their own wealth.

So Again you did not believe claiming i "Extremely Exaggerated" now you can see it for yourself.

How come The United States can assist Ethiopia with air bombings in Somalia, where are the world staging their outcries.

The United States invasion of Iraq and both Afghanistan were Illegal under international law, since for 1) Al Qae the ALLLEGED mastermind's with no evidence found today linking them except a fake videotape made in some state. It is still a non governmental organization which means no invasion, yet the USA decided before and 9/11 to invade Afghanistan , Evidence provided...


US planned attack on Taleban before 11/9



A former Pakistani diplomat has told the BBC that the US was planning military action against Osama Bin Laden and the Taleban even before 11/09 attacks.

Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October.

Mr Naik said US officials told him of the plan at a UN-sponsored international contact group on Afghanistan which took place in Berlin.

Mr Naik told the BBC that at the meeting the US representatives told him that unless Bin Laden was handed over swiftly America would take military action to kill or capture both Bin Laden and the Taleban leader, Mullah Omar.

The wider objective, according to Mr Naik, would be to topple the Taleban regime and install a transitional government of moderate Afghans in its place - possibly under the leadership of the former Afghan King Zahir Shah.

Mr Naik was told that Washington would launch its operation from bases in Tajikistan, where American advisers were already in place.

He was told that Uzbekistan would also participate in the operation and that 17,000 Russian troops were on standby.

Mr Naik was told that if the military action went ahead it would take place before the snows started falling in Afghanistan, by the middle of October at the latest.

He said that he was in no doubt that after the World Trade Center bombings this pre-existing US plan had been built upon and would be implemented within two or three weeks.

And he said it was doubtful that Washington would drop its plan even if Bin Laden were to be surrendered immediately by the Taleban.
Source : BBC - Tuesday, 18 September, 2001
Reply

SilentObserver
02-20-2007, 05:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Exaggerated?

Study Claims Iraq's 'Excess' Death Toll Has Reached 655,000

By David Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 11, 2006; Page A12

A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.

The estimate, produced by interviewing residents during a random sampling of households throughout the country, is far higher than ones produced by other groups, including Iraq's government.


A man mourns his son Friday in Baqubah, a city north of Baghdad. The child died in random gunfire near a family home in the village of Khan Bani Saad.
A man mourns his son Friday in Baqubah, a city north of Baghdad. The child died in random gunfire near a family home in the village of Khan Bani Saad. (By Mohammed Adnan -- Associated Press)
Special Report
America at War


It is more than 20 times the estimate of 30,000 civilian deaths that President Bush gave in a speech in December. It is more than 10 times the estimate of roughly 50,000 civilian deaths made by the British-based Iraq Body Count research group.

The surveyors said they found a steady increase in mortality since the invasion, with a steeper rise in the last year that appears to reflect a worsening of violence as reported by the U.S. military, the news media and civilian groups. In the year ending in June, the team calculated Iraq's mortality rate to be roughly four times what it was the year before the war.

Of the total 655,000 estimated "excess deaths," 601,000 resulted from violence and the rest from disease and other causes, according to the study. This is about 500 unexpected violent deaths per day throughout the country.

The survey was done by Iraqi physicians and overseen by epidemiologists at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health. The findings are being published online today by the British medical journal the Lancet.

The same group in 2004 published an estimate of roughly 100,000 deaths in the first 18 months after the invasion. That figure was much higher than expected, and was controversial. The new study estimates that about 500,000 more Iraqis, both civilian and military, have died since then -- a finding likely to be equally controversial.

Both this and the earlier study are the only ones to estimate mortality in Iraq using scientific methods. The technique, called "cluster sampling," is used to estimate mortality in famines and after natural disasters.

While acknowledging that the estimate is large, the researchers believe it is sound for numerous reasons. The recent survey got the same estimate for immediate post-invasion deaths as the early survey, which gives the researchers confidence in the methods. The great majority of deaths were also substantiated by death certificates.

"We're very confident with the results," said Gilbert Burnham, a Johns Hopkins physician and epidemiologist.

A Defense Department spokesman did not comment directly on the estimate.

"The Department of Defense always regrets the loss of any innocent life in Iraq or anywhere else," said Lt. Col. Mark Ballesteros. "The coalition takes enormous precautions to prevent civilian deaths and injuries."

Source http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101001442.html

Its Also apparent that you do not understand the Politics of what i have stated. Look at the current situation of Iraq, where are the world outcry's of the countless deaths of Iraqi civilians, what about the millions of children from Iraq who suffered in the early 90s from the uraninum depletion. Is this Justice? Where in the world are those who seek to help refuges, while they consume their own wealth.

So Again you did not believe claiming i "Extremely Exaggerated" now you can see it for yourself.

How come The United States can assist Ethiopia with air bombings in Somalia, where are the world staging their outcries.

The United States invasion of Iraq and both Afghanistan were Illegal under international law, since for 1) Al Qae the ALLLEGED mastermind's with no evidence found today linking them except a fake videotape made in some state. It is still a non governmental organization which means no invasion, yet the USA decided before and 9/11 to invade Afghanistan , Evidence provided...


US planned attack on Taleban before 11/9



A former Pakistani diplomat has told the BBC that the US was planning military action against Osama Bin Laden and the Taleban even before 11/09 attacks.

Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October.

Mr Naik said US officials told him of the plan at a UN-sponsored international contact group on Afghanistan which took place in Berlin.

Mr Naik told the BBC that at the meeting the US representatives told him that unless Bin Laden was handed over swiftly America would take military action to kill or capture both Bin Laden and the Taleban leader, Mullah Omar.

The wider objective, according to Mr Naik, would be to topple the Taleban regime and install a transitional government of moderate Afghans in its place - possibly under the leadership of the former Afghan King Zahir Shah.

Mr Naik was told that Washington would launch its operation from bases in Tajikistan, where American advisers were already in place.

He was told that Uzbekistan would also participate in the operation and that 17,000 Russian troops were on standby.

Mr Naik was told that if the military action went ahead it would take place before the snows started falling in Afghanistan, by the middle of October at the latest.

He said that he was in no doubt that after the World Trade Center bombings this pre-existing US plan had been built upon and would be implemented within two or three weeks.

And he said it was doubtful that Washington would drop its plan even if Bin Laden were to be surrendered immediately by the Taleban.
Source : BBC - Tuesday, 18 September, 2001
If you wish to talk about your extensive exaggeration, then please start a thread, or post in one of the existing ones about Iraq. This thread is not about that.
I don't know why you post about the US, and Iraq, Ethiopia, taliban, etc. It makes no sense. It has nothing to do with this thread or anything that I've said.
Talk about short attention span.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
02-20-2007, 07:11 AM
Lol Al Hamdulillah
Reply

Keltoi
02-20-2007, 02:24 PM
Hopefully a Chechen leader will emerge that will re-focus the nationalist aim of Chechen independence. I realize that Basayev was also concerned with Chechen independence, but his methods and those that followed him, seemed to mimic Islamic "jihad" to the point of painting themselves into a box. Make this conflict about independence, not religious zeal, and Chechnya will see true independence. Rightly or wrongly, the Chechens are seen as a terrorist entity now, not only because of Beslan, but the "jihad" nature of the propoganda vids and the increasing number of Arabs who have joined the cause. I know Muslims won't see it the same way I do, but I'm speaking from a detached political science prospective.

Down with Putin. That is another element that will see a fresh view on Chechnya. If Putin actually steps down when he is supposed to, and the Russian people actually elect a reformer, we could see an end to violence by 2010. That is alot of "ifs", but Russia is increasingly dumping its semi-democratic principles, and is quickly becoming something like the old Soviet system.
Reply

Count DeSheep
02-20-2007, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
Since the official elected Chechen goverment had no hand in Beslan - condemned it and said it would put the people behind it on trial as soon as the war was over - and in fact has NEVER carried out an act of aggression against Russian civilians in over a decade of this war, it would be silly to lump all "rebels" together.

Do you support the official "rebel" movement which was headed by Aslan Maskhadov and is now headed by president Dokku Umarov?

Im just trying to understand where you stand on all this.
Umarov and Maskhadov are great men. They oppose what Basayev did in Beslan and it seems that their views on how to go about getting Chechnya free from Russia are similar, if not exactly the same, as my own. So I do support the official rebel movement headed by Maskhadov and now by Umarov.
Reply

Count DeSheep
02-20-2007, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
But the World can support the Bombings of thousands of Muslim women and children who are massacred and yet where are the world outcrys? 650,000 killed in Iraq, where are the WORLD OUTCRYS, Over Tens of thousands of women and children in Afghanistan, where are the WORLD OUTCRYS, Yet they teach this is Democracy (Liberation in a Kaffir way).
The outcries are coming from the same type of people that call what happened at Beslan a horrible thing. I cannot speak for the entire planet, but there can't just be two of us, both miraculously on the same forum, that oppose what's been done by people on many different sides of these conflicts. The UN, the terrorists, and the former governments of the countries where these conflicts happen are all to blame.

Take note: UN forces do not walk into a crowded market place loaded down with explosives and blow themselves up. Terrorists do that--you know, the people that I oppose? Yes, there have been UN forces that rape and kill for no reason, and I oppose them as well. The UN has not done things the right way--just like the rebels in Beslan. They had a good thing in mind, I believe, but they went about doing it entirely the wrong way.
Reply

SATalha
02-20-2007, 04:05 PM
Why should the Chechens opt for nationalism? Whats wrong with our Muslim brothers and sisters fighting under the banner of Islam. If there is a strong Islamic influence there than that is a good thing. Maybe some actions like Beslen wont take place, I know that the right Islamic people will not allow this. most of the Chechen Islamic leaders would agree.
Reply

Count DeSheep
02-20-2007, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
Why should the Chechens opt for nationalism?
The same reason the Native Americans opt for reservations: it was their land to began with. As far as I'm concerned, it still is, it's just being borrowed by people who don't like returning things. >=O
Reply

Chechen
02-20-2007, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Umarov and Maskhadov are great men. They oppose what Basayev did in Beslan and it seems that their views on how to go about getting Chechnya free from Russia are similar, if not exactly the same, as my own. So I do support the official rebel movement headed by Maskhadov and now by Umarov.

Yes they were all great men except Umarov was always with Basayev and Maskhadov was a little on his own. Maskhadov always believed that it would be possible to negotiate with Russians and always spent a lot of time looking for solutions to have the Russians sit at a table and talk. But on the other side you had Basayev, Umarov and the rest who believed that the Russians would never negotiate and even if they did everyone saw what happened the last time when they negotiated so they were looking for military solutions and believed that the Russians had to be defeated and treated the hard way. Umarov was always Basayev's apprentice so he's going to continue what him and Basayev had been doing. There never was a separation between the rebels it's just that everyone had their own thoughts and were trying to come up with their own solutions, they had different ways of thinking. Umarov may take some much more extreme meausures than Basayev. I don't know I just think he might because Basayev had always been someone calm and quiet and always taking time to think whereas Umarov is known to be as someone aggresive and quick tempered.
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Count DeSheep
02-20-2007, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
I don't know I just think he[Umarov] might because Basayev had always been someone calm and quiet and always taking time to think whereas Umarov is known to be as someone aggresive and quick tempered.
That explains why Basayev attacked Beslan, while Umarov spoke out against it, right? I don't know a whole lot about them, but from what I can tell, Umarov is a military guy who fights the military of the enemy. Basayev, on the other hand, is a military guy willing to bring the fight to civilians if he thinks it'll end the war in his favor. But like I say, I don't know a whole lot about either of them, that's just my observation so far.
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Chechen
02-20-2007, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
That explains why Basayev attacked Beslan, while Umarov spoke out against it, right? I don't know a whole lot about them, but from what I can tell, Umarov is a military guy who fights the military of the enemy. Basayev, on the other hand, is a military guy willing to bring the fight to civilians if he thinks it'll end the war in his favor. But like I say, I don't know a whole lot about either of them, that's just my observation so far.

Basayev has always been fighting the military and was the best at it. You probably don't know what he's managed to do because what he's achieved is incredible even the American military, which is supposed to be the best in the world, was amazed and couldn't manage to understand how he achieved what he did. Beslan happened once and it lasted only a few days but Basayev had brought enormous losses to the Russian military and he had been doing it for 15 years non stop.
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Count DeSheep
02-20-2007, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
Basayev has always been fighting the military and was the best at it. You probably don't know what he's managed to do because what he's achieved is incredible even the American military, which is supposed to be the best in the world, was amazed and couldn't manage to understand how he achieved what he did. Beslan happened once and it lasted only a few days but Basayev had brought enormous losses to the Russian military and he had been doing it for 15 years non stop.
Eh. Yes, you're right. I haven't looked this up myself, but I believe what you say. =D But me thinks Umarov is more better. Apparently, he doesn't look at civilians as another tool of war. Does he, teacher? XP
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Chechen
02-20-2007, 06:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Eh. Yes, you're right. I haven't looked this up myself, but I believe what you say. =D But me thinks Umarov is more better. Apparently, he doesn't look at civilians as another tool of war. Does he, teacher? XP

LOL teacher. But Basayev was the best he was incredible and that's what a lot of Chechens think. Umarov, I have to admit, isn't very trusted because after the first war he used to be part of this group of criminals who went around kidnapping people and then letting them go for big amounts of money. Although Basayev used to always say that he talked a lot to Umarov, he taught him about Islam and how to be a good muslim and that Umarov used to keep repeating that he regrets what he did in the past. But people are still a little careful of him and don't trust him by 100%. He'll have to prove us that he really changed. But who knows I hope he really did become a good person.
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mahdisoldier19
02-20-2007, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Hopefully a Chechen leader will emerge that will re-focus the nationalist aim of Chechen independence. I realize that Basayev was also concerned with Chechen independence, but his methods and those that followed him, seemed to mimic Islamic "jihad" to the point of painting themselves into a box. Make this conflict about independence, not religious zeal, and Chechnya will see true independence. Rightly or wrongly, the Chechens are seen as a terrorist entity now, not only because of Beslan, but the "jihad" nature of the propoganda vids and the increasing number of Arabs who have joined the cause. I know Muslims won't see it the same way I do, but I'm speaking from a detached political science prospective.

Down with Putin. That is another element that will see a fresh view on Chechnya. If Putin actually steps down when he is supposed to, and the Russian people actually elect a reformer, we could see an end to violence by 2010. That is alot of "ifs", but Russia is increasingly dumping its semi-democratic principles, and is quickly becoming something like the old Soviet system.
And you have a problem with Islamic Jihad, that means you have a problem with Islam and just disrespected those who have strived in Jihad Fi Sabilillah, in cluding Rasooillah sws and his sahabas and other companions, so where are the moderators who ban?
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Kittygyal
02-20-2007, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
And you have a problem with Islamic Jihad, that means you have a problem with Islam and just disrespected those who have strived in Jihad Fi Sabilillah, in cluding Rasooillah sws and his sahabas and other companions, so where are the moderators who ban?
need a kitkat so do i BREAK
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Count DeSheep
02-20-2007, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
LOL teacher. But Basayev was the best he was incredible and that's what a lot of Chechens think. Umarov, I have to admit, isn't very trusted because after the first war he used to be part of this group of criminals who went around kidnapping people and then letting them go for big amounts of money. Although Basayev used to always say that he talked a lot to Umarov, he taught him about Islam and how to be a good muslim and that Umarov used to keep repeating that he regrets what he did in the past. But people are still a little careful of him and don't trust him by 100%. He'll have to prove us that he really changed. But who knows I hope he really did become a good person.
Oh, fiddlesticks. What kinda people did Umarov kidnap? Innocent people? Russian soldiers/government agents?

format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
And you have a problem with Islamic Jihad, that means you have a problem with Islam and just disrespected those who have strived in Jihad Fi Sabilillah, in cluding Rasooillah sws and his sahabas and other companions, so where are the moderators who ban?
I diagnose you as having conclusionjumpingidis.

Edit: I JUST found out how Reputation works. Well, partly. Can someone explain the Rep Power thing, though?
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Kittygyal
02-20-2007, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Oh, fiddlesticks. What kinda people did Umarov kidnap? Innocent people? Russian soldiers/government agents?



I diagnose you as having conclusionjumpingidis.

Edit: I JUST found out how Reputation works. Well, partly. Can someone explain the Rep Power thing, though?
do you wana know well ask a mod/.admin then
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Chechnya
02-20-2007, 09:15 PM
LOL teacher. But Basayev was the best he was incredible and that's what a lot of Chechens think. Umarov, I have to admit, isn't very trusted because after the first war he used to be part of this group of criminals who went around kidnapping people and then letting them go for big amounts of money. Although Basayev used to always say that he talked a lot to Umarov, he taught him about Islam and how to be a good muslim and that Umarov used to keep repeating that he regrets what he did in the past. But people are still a little careful of him and don't trust him by 100%. He'll have to prove us that he really changed. But who knows I hope he really did become a good person.
Bro, i dont agree with what you said about Dokku Umarov

He was in the Maskhadov goverment and even eventually resigned in a bid to prove he had nothing to do with the kidnapping trade

Even to this day he denies it all - i dont believe he ever was a kidnapper otherwise he wouldnt have risen to the station he has now

Oh, fiddlesticks. What kinda people did Umarov kidnap? Innocent people? Russian soldiers/government agents?
He has always denied these rumours - and thats al they are, rumours.

These rumours were spread about other Chechen commanders to like Hamzat Gelayev - no-one, not even Russia, has ever been able to provide proof for it.
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Count DeSheep
02-20-2007, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
Bro, i dont agree with what you said about Dokku Umarov

He was in the Maskhadov goverment and even eventually resigned in a bid to prove he had nothing to do with the kidnapping trade

Even to this day he denies it all - i dont believe he ever was a kidnapper otherwise he wouldnt have risen to the station he has now

He has always denied these rumours - and thats al they are, rumours.

These rumours were spread about other Chechen commanders to like Hamzat Gelayev - no-one, not even Russia, has ever been able to provide proof for it.
Ooohhh...Alrighteh then. Rumours it is, wot? XP
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Chechen
02-20-2007, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
Bro, i dont agree with what you said about Dokku Umarov

He was in the Maskhadov goverment and even eventually resigned in a bid to prove he had nothing to do with the kidnapping trade

Even to this day he denies it all - i dont believe he ever was a kidnapper otherwise he wouldnt have risen to the station he has now



He has always denied these rumours - and thats al they are, rumours.

These rumours were spread about other Chechen commanders to like Hamzat Gelayev - no-one, not even Russia, has ever been able to provide proof for it.

Bro I agree with you that the Russians are constantly making up lies but about Umarov participating in kidnappings that is something all the Chechens know and he's never denied it if you have some link or something though could you please pass it to me? As you know my father had a pretty important role in the Chechen movement and he never liked Umarov before because he says that he was a criminal before but now he wants to believe Basayev about Umarov being a better person. I hope that now he's changed but before he did some dirty stuff and apparently he regrets it now.
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SilentObserver
02-21-2007, 06:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
And you have a problem with Islamic Jihad, that means you have a problem with Islam and just disrespected those who have strived in Jihad Fi Sabilillah, in cluding Rasooillah sws and his sahabas and other companions, so where are the moderators who ban?
And you have a problem with Islamic Jihad, that means you have a problem with Islam
???!?! HUH!?!?!
conclusionjumpingidis
Yes, yes indeed. An acute case of conclusionjumpingidis, I agree. Excellent analysis Count DeSheep.

so where are the moderators who ban?
LOL! Ban? You want him banned for having an opinion? You would be banned for glorifying violence before he would be banned for merely having an opinion.
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Chechnya
02-22-2007, 05:21 PM
Bro I agree with you that the Russians are constantly making up lies but about Umarov participating in kidnappings that is something all the Chechens know and he's never denied it if you have some link or something though could you please pass it to me? As you know my father had a pretty important role in the Chechen movement and he never liked Umarov before because he says that he was a criminal before but now he wants to believe Basayev about Umarov being a better person. I hope that now he's changed but before he did some dirty stuff and apparently he regrets it now.
Im 99% sure i have read something about him denying it - ill try to find out where i read it
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Chechen
02-22-2007, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
Im 99% sure i have read something about him denying it - ill try to find out where i read it

Ok thanks that would be cool. Cause I always remember him claiming that he did but he always regretted it and swore he was a better person now. Also it's something that everyone in Chechnya knew and people had trouble accepting him among them when he joined the rebel movement.
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mahdisoldier19
02-22-2007, 06:27 PM
The Russians, you mean the Russians who brought 140,000 Soldiers into Afghanistan and lost against the Mujahideen?

The ones who are losing against the Mujahideen in Chechnya? Those russians never learn their lesson!
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Keltoi
02-22-2007, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
And you have a problem with Islamic Jihad, that means you have a problem with Islam and just disrespected those who have strived in Jihad Fi Sabilillah, in cluding Rasooillah sws and his sahabas and other companions, so where are the moderators who ban?
I don't have any problem with Islam, except for those who use it to justify extreme acts of violence and carnage. My problem with "Islamic Jihad" in the context of Chechnya is the way in which it has justified Putin renaming the situation as a "War on Terrorism". If you truly read the post in which this opinion was quoted from, you would have understood that quite clearly.
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mahdisoldier19
02-23-2007, 06:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I don't have any problem with Islam, except for those who use it to justify extreme acts of violence and carnage. My problem with "Islamic Jihad" in the context of Chechnya is the way in which it has justified Putin renaming the situation as a "War on Terrorism". If you truly read the post in which this opinion was quoted from, you would have understood that quite clearly.
And name me one war on this "War on Terrorism" that was justified according to International Law?
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Count DeSheep
02-23-2007, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
And name me one war on this "War on Terrorism" that was justified according to International Law?
From the Wikipedia entry on the Taliban:
The Taliban government has been severely criticized for not respecting the human rights of women. Women were prohibited from leaving their homes, unless they were completely covered; no part of their faces, hair or body was to be shown out in the public. Religious police patrols forced women to wear burqa of a specified length, and even minor deviations could result in public punishment, as women were beaten with thin sticks at the ankles for wearing burqas that were "too short". The education of women suffered too, and women were deprived even of elementary education.

The Taliban continued a long trend of the brutal oppression of the Hazara people in Afganistan. Most Hazara are Shia Muslims, and the staunchly Sunni Taliban conisder Shia Islam to be heretical. During the last years of Taliban rule, this oppression took the form of mass killings and burnings of cities and villages. On August 10, 1998, Mulla Niazi (Governor of Mazar Sharif) declared a Fatwah against the Hazara, pronouncing the Hazara as infidels to be killed with impunity. During the years that followed, rapes and massacres of Hazara by Taliban forces were documented by groups such as Human Rights Watch.

Al-Qaeda's entry:
Al-Qaeda is also suspected in the November 9, 2005 Amman, Jordan attacks in which three simultaneous bombings occurred at American franchise-owned hotels in Amman. The blasts killed 57 and injured 120 people. Most of the injured and killed were attending a wedding at the Radisson Hotel

Al-Qaeda is believed to have conducted the bombings in August 1998 of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing more than 200 people and injuring more than 5,000 others.


If you want more, I'll give it to you. Then again, you seem like the kind of person that makes their own facts, so you shouldn't need any help. XP
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mahdisoldier19
02-25-2007, 07:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
From the Wikipedia entry on the Taliban:
The Taliban government has been severely criticized for not respecting the human rights of women. Women were prohibited from leaving their homes, unless they were completely covered; no part of their faces, hair or body was to be shown out in the public. Religious police patrols forced women to wear burqa of a specified length, and even minor deviations could result in public punishment, as women were beaten with thin sticks at the ankles for wearing burqas that were "too short". The education of women suffered too, and women were deprived even of elementary education.

The Taliban continued a long trend of the brutal oppression of the Hazara people in Afganistan. Most Hazara are Shia Muslims, and the staunchly Sunni Taliban conisder Shia Islam to be heretical. During the last years of Taliban rule, this oppression took the form of mass killings and burnings of cities and villages. On August 10, 1998, Mulla Niazi (Governor of Mazar Sharif) declared a Fatwah against the Hazara, pronouncing the Hazara as infidels to be killed with impunity. During the years that followed, rapes and massacres of Hazara by Taliban forces were documented by groups such as Human Rights Watch.

Al-Qaeda's entry:
Al-Qaeda is also suspected in the November 9, 2005 Amman, Jordan attacks in which three simultaneous bombings occurred at American franchise-owned hotels in Amman. The blasts killed 57 and injured 120 people. Most of the injured and killed were attending a wedding at the Radisson Hotel

Al-Qaeda is believed to have conducted the bombings in August 1998 of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing more than 200 people and injuring more than 5,000 others.


If you want more, I'll give it to you. Then again, you seem like the kind of person that makes their own facts, so you shouldn't need any help. XP
Dont worry do not think you are that fast,

Warlord's men commit rape in revenge against Taliban

By David Filipov, Globe Staff, 2/24/2002

ALKH, Afghanistan - In a country where women have long lived in the shadows, rape is an especially potent political weapon. To this, the women of northern Afghanistan can attest - at least those who dare speak publicly.

The ouster of the Taliban by the US-backed Northern Alliance did not stop the use of rape as a way to demoralize and dominate. But what has changed since the fall is the identity of the victims, now mostly Pashtun families and displaced people living in camps, the losers following the defeat of the Pashtun-dominated Taliban.

The crime is perpetrated, say victims and aid workers, by the men who answer to warlord Abdul Rashid Dostum, a Northern Alliance commander whose 3,000-man army, Junbish-e- illie, now rules much of the country's north.

Most women are too afraid and ashamed to talk about being raped. But, Nazu, a Pashtun mother of 10, was willing to describe what happened to her, and to her girls.

It was, she said, a little over a month ago. She had put her children to bed when five heavily armed Junbish soldiers burst into their modest compound in Balkh, 12 miles west of Mazar-e- Sharif.

Over the next eight hours, she said, one soldier held her crippled husband, Jamaludin, at gunpoint as the others took her three oldest girls into the room and raped them repeatedly - first Fatima, 14, then Bibi Aisha, 12, and then Bibi Amena, 10. Then they came for Nazu.

''The soldier pointed a gun at me. He told me I was a Pashtun,'' Nazu, 40, said as she and her daughters crouched against the dusty wall of their home, faces partially hidden behind scarves, their eyes lowered.

''I was afraid. I could not resist. I am a woman, and they had guns. I could not stop them.''

Officials deny attacks; local police powerless

Pashtun leaders and foreign aid workers say the assault on Nazu and her daughters is only one example in a horrifying trend.

Pashtuns, an ethnic group that made up the bulk of the Taliban, say Junbish soldiers have committed rape as part of their reprisals against the people they blame for the regime's oppressive rule.

Pashtun families in Balkh have not been the only victims. Three weeks ago, Junbish soldiers, who rule much of northern Afghanistan, rampaged through the outskirts of Dawlatabad, 20 miles north of Mazar-e-Sharif. Nur Mohammad, a local Pashtun leader, said 30 houses were attacked.

''Women were assaulted, but none of them will talk to you,'' he said.

At the Sakhi camp for displaced people outside Mazar-e-Sharif, armed Junbish have raped dozens of women since the Taliban left last November, local and foreign aid workers say.

''This is a problem that needs to be investigated,'' said one, on the condition he not be named.

The trouble is that foreign aid agencies depend on the local commanders - Dostum, ethnic Hazara leader Mohammad Mohaqiq, and ethnic Tajik leader Ustad Atta Mohammad - to do their jobs. Borders, roads, warehouses, even the buildings foreign organizations rent, are all under the control of the warlords.

Dostum's security officers routinely harass anyone who appears to be asking too many of the wrong questions.

Meanwhile, General Shakh Zoda, a Dostum aide, denied that Junbish soldiers had assaulted civilians. Mohammad Isa Eftekhari, the government-appointed police chief for Mazar-e-Sharif and the surrounding area, also told the Globe he had no knowledge of any attacks on civilians.

In this atmosphere of denial, local police are powerless to do anything. The police force in the town of Balkh numbers 110 men; the Junbish have more than 700 armed men in the town.

''If someone told you about a terrible crime the Junbish committed, what guarantees of protection could you give them?'' asked one Afghan who works for a foreign aid organization. ''We can't do anything because we have no power.''

Amir Hamza, the ethnic Tajik police chief of Balkh, agreed.

''Junbish commanders protect their soldiers from us,'' he said.

He said it was likely that many more Pashtun women had been raped, but they were afraid to tell anyone. ''It is also possible that some women do not want to discuss this crime with anyone. They are ashamed.''

Threatened and ashamed, victims remain silent

Rape has been used as a weapon of terror in other wars throughout history, most recently in the Balkans. In Kosovo, ethnic Albanian women who were raped by Serb soldiers were evicted when their families found out.

One of the bloodiest and most violent chapters in recent Afghan history occurred when Taliban fighters captured Mazar-e-Sharif in August 1998. In a few days more civilians were killed, and murdered and raped, than at any time in the previous 20 years of war in Afghanistan.

Now, like then, women who are victims of assault are pressured to be silent. Even with the liberation of Afghanistan from Taliban rule, the culture of oppression is slow to change. Especially in the north, women are expected to stay at home and never speak to strangers.

''Many times the Junbish committed these crimes, but Pashtun women have pride and they cannot tell people,'' said one villager.

Pashtun families make easy targets because the Junbish disarmed many of them when Dostum's troops, assisted by US special forces who continue to accompany the warlord everywhere, drove out the Taliban.

''The Junbish see a home, and they know there are Pashtuns living there, and they go inside and rape the women and threaten the men not to talk about it,'' said Amir Jan, the leader of the Pashtun community in the Balkh area. ''They know no one can do anything about it.''

Nazu was also afraid to speak out, and for good reason. The day after the soldiers assaulted her and her daughters, the soldiers came back and told the terror-stricken family that if they repeated this story to anyone, they would die. Jamaludin went to the police anyway, but he was told that they could not do anything.

It was Nazu's neighbor Safi Nubi who tried to get the police to investigate the assault on Nazu and her daughters. They arrested one man but set him free soon after. One of the assailants on Jamaludin's family lives nearby and still roams freely with the Junbish. Also because of this, Nubi said, many more women who have been raped are afraid to come forward.

''If Junbish soldiers commit a crime, the Junbish is very strong,'' Nubi said as tears welled in his eyes. ''The police cannot do anything. These people are afraid. They think that the Junbish will kill them.''

Jamaludin said he was too ashamed to take his wife and children to the hospital after the assault. When the government in Kabul sent a woman doctor to Balkh 20 days ago, he considered taking them, but he did not have any money; the soldiers had stolen it.

''We aren't feeling very well,'' said Nazu as she nursed her infant girl. ''It is shameful for us to explain.''

Her daughters looked on. It was hard to say whether the 10-year-old, Bibi Amena, understood what had happened to her. It was Fatima, 14, who spoke, revealing a young face covered in scars.

''Please help us,'' Fatima said, ''and take care of us.''

The Taliban, Education and Health Policy Toward Girls. (untold Truth)



"According to a survey by the Swedish Comittie for Afghanistan (SCA), 80% of girls schools were located in rural afghanistan and under the Taliban were operating in full swing. Ms Pia Karlsson, education advisor at the SCA, said 85% of girls were stil in schools. In Kunduz Province, under the Taliban, 122 girls schools were operating, with 390 registered female teachers!"
The Taliban were the prime target in an Anti-Islamic drive in the media, to prepare the public for war against them.
All the women who shrill at the burqa, were silent when 2 million afghans died from Russian bombs, they were silent went 500'000 afghans were maimed by mines, and were silent about thousands of women who were raped before the Taliban came to power.
General Hamid who lived under the Taliban for several years.
There has been no campaign aimed at beating women in public, and there has been no ban on education for women. Only a restriction on co-education.
There are many lies on "respected websites about the "suffering" of Afghan women, yet there are no dates, names, places or anything other form of verification. Hamid gul says he found women almost always-outnumbered men in the streets and market places.
The Afghan women protesting in the west come from the Khalq and parcham factions of Afghan communists. They represent a tiny fraction of the population.
The Taliban were extra strict on these communist women to ensure they didn’t cause friction and trouble and stir up trouble. The women only had to wear the Burqa in the streets, at home; they were free to dress as they pleased. According to a female nurse, women in hospitals rarely wore the burqa or even hijab as there were no men present.
According to a survey by the Swedish Committee for Afghanistan (SCA), 80% of girl’s schools were located in rural Afghanistan and under the Taliban were operating in full swing. Ms Pia Karlsson, education advisor at the SCA, said 85% of girls were still in schools. In Kunduz Province, under the Taliban, 122 girls schools were operating, with 390 registered female teachers!
Prior to Taliban rule, there were 350 beds in Kabul for women. In august 2001, there were 950 beds for women in women only hospitals in Kabul. Some women only hospitals include Rabia Balkhi Hospital, Malali Hospital, Khair Khana Hospital, Indira Gandhi Health Hospital, Atta Turk Hospital, Kuwait Red Crescent health Centre and a Contagios Disease Health Clinic! There were also 32 Mother and Child clinics.
In addition, the women received treatment at the ICRC and Sanday Gal Orthopaedic Centres. In All these hospitals and centres, only women doctors and nurses worked providing health care.
Yet the Sun, Dailey express, New York Times, and all these tabloid press agencies never reported any of this, neither did the BBC, CNN, Fox news etc. It was part of a campaign of lies and deception to turn the public against the Taliban.
You were told women couldn’t work, women could not go out the house, that women could not go to school, or even go to hospitals, well the facts are proving otherwise.

The Taliban and Women

The treatment of women in Afghanistan is a subject that the Western Media and Feminists have concentrated their ideological warfare efforts on. They have based their 'reports' and analyses on a number of interviews with Communist women, whose idea of 'freedom' is similar to the freedom given to women in the West, i.e. that all women should make all parts of their bodies available to men to view and use; that in order to be good you must look good (thus creating an inferioriety complex and problems such as Anorexia eating disorders in young women who cannot accept that they do not look like beautiful models) and the use of naked and half-naked women to sell everything from cars to toilet paper. It is important to look at the policies of the Taliban as regards women and the facts in the country itself, as reported by independent journalists.


Women's Life Conditions Presently and Under Rabbani Regime

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is fully committed to the social, cultural and economic development of women. The government has been able to protect the honor, life and property of Afghan women. Contrary to the situation under the Rabbani regime, women can now be outside their houses safely without the fear of being kidnaped, raped or looted. They no longer fear conditions that were common during the Rabbani regime. According to amnesty international reports of 1992-95, women in Afghanistan bore the brunt of the atrocities by the Rabbani regime and other armed factions. Irresponsible commanders and gunmen not only violated the honor of women by raping them but mutilated women's bodies and in many cases, cut their breasts etc. Similarly, common was murder, torture and execution of our people by the armed factions. Due to the intolerable atrocities, the Taleban Islamic Movement emerged to deliver the defenseless Afghan people from the cruel hands of the warlords. One should ask oneself, is women's freedom to be raped with their breasts cut, or is it to freely live their lives without fear of even comments being made at them.

The former regime that did not serve the country had employed women in a number of sectors without any real need. Some of them were used just for the sexual entertainment of the bureaucracy. Due to the ineffective and immoral institutions, they have temporarily been relieved of their duties. The government pays them their salaries regularly. But women whose work is really needed, are still working in the health, education and security sectors. As conditions in the country improve, so will, doubtlessly, job opportunities for women.

Restoration of Women's Safety, Dignity and Freedom

Being highly concerned about the well-being of its female citizens, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, soon introduced measures to put a stop to the miserable living conditions under which the women lived in Kabul. After the communists took over in Kabul, they began to exploit women for the purpose of advancing their political and social agendas. In spite of war condition in the country and with no work in the offices, the communist regime forced a large number of women to attend government offices only for their amusement.

The Islamic Emirate decided to pay the salaries of these women at their homes, so that they could stay home and take care of their families and children. The purpose of this policy is to help revive the Afghan family and household, as the foundation of the Afghan society, a foundation that was intentionally destroyed by the communist regime.

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is determined to provide educational and employment opportunities for the women of Afghanistan, as soon as the security and financial circumstances under which the Islamic Emirate operates allow such a step to be taken. In the meantime, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan will try to acquire the resources and build the facilities that would make the separate education of women possible.

Observance of Islamic Hejab or the Veil

The enforcement of the code of Islamic Hejab by the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is fully consistent with the Islamic beliefs of Afghans and the traditions of the Afghan society. Wearing a veil is common among women all over Afghanistan. Islam and Afghan tradition attach the greatest importance to the honor and safety of women in the society.

To comply with the Islamic code of Hejab, as well as to reduce the degree of threat to the personal safety of women, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is asking the women to observe the Islamic Hejab, and cover their faces in public. This is a measure that is undertaken for the simple reason of protecting the honor, dignity, and personal safety of the women in Afghanistan.

Women's Education in the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan

Based on the holy teachings of Islam, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan considers education as the pillar of a healthy and prosperous individual and social life. The Islamic Emirate is determined to provide educational opportunities for all Afghans irrespective of gender, race, tribe, language, or regional affiliations.

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan considers education to be obligatory equally for men and women according to the tenets of Islam. This is a clear verdict of our religion. However, currently the country is in shambles, its economic structure destroyed and education facilities turned to rubble like much else in the country. Afghanistan requires appropriate foreign assistance to rebuild every aspect of educational institutions. The present war situation imposed and fueled by foreign powers diverts from Afghanistan's already meager national resources that would be better allocated to opening more schools. Larger and more centrally-run schools in urban areas present the greatest challenge. Secondly, the Afghans do not trust the communist-style curriculum. We have to restore the trust of the common people in government-run education. We also need to compile a new curriculum that will answer to the needs of our society. Thirdly, the war has created a huge brain drain in all sectors including education. In order to successfully tackle restoration of educational, economic, political and social institutions, the government wants to attract Afghan professionals and intellectuals living abroad. We want them to take part in the reconstruction of their country. Without their full participation in the rehabilitation and development efforts, the Islamic Emirate will not be able to tackle these issues successfully.

The conditions today for the implementation of a sound, effective, and Islamic educational program for the women of Afghanistan are nonexistent. Over ninety percent of school buildings have been ruined by the war. Qualified teachers have left the country. School books are full of communist propaganda and indoctrination material. Because of past abuses of the educational system for the purpose of propagating atheist ideology and ideas, the great majority of Afghan fathers and mothers have lost faith in schools and secular education. Last but not least, in spite of its deep desire to activate the schooling system in the country, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has been facing great difficulties in securing the financial and physical resources needed to provide security for the schools, reconstruct school buildings, print new books, acquire the necessary materials and pay for qualified and dependable teachers.

The limited amount of resources at the disposal of the Islamic Emirate are being used to finance a war that has been imposed on Afghanistan by the brazen and open intervention of countries such as Iran, Russia, Uzbekistan and India. Intervention by these countries, and the resulting terrorist activities launched against the innocent men and women of Afghanistan by groups affiliated to these countries, have made the task of providing security for schools and public buildings, particularly girl's schools, extremely difficult.

Currently Operating Girls' Schools

Despite the limited economic resources of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan to fund educational institutes, universities in Qandahar, Kabul and Nangrahar provinces are operating as usual. Several NGOs have been allowed to fund schools in Afghanistan, besides the schools funded by the government.

Contrary to reports about girls education in the press, the figures obtained from the education sector in Afghanistan, reveal that girls education in rural Afghanistan is increasing. According to a survey conducted by the Swedish Committee for Afghanistan (SCA), almost 80 per cent of the girls schools located in rural areas under the administration of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan are operating in full swing. Ms. Pia Karlsson, education advisor at the Education Technical Support Unit (ETSU) of SCA, said in a recent interview published by the Frontier Post, a Peshawar based English daily that only in Ghazni province, where the Islamic Emirate under the leadership of TIMA has control for the last two years, approximately 85 per cent of the girls are still in schools. Ms. Karlsson says, "The picture outside the cities is totally different."

The SCA which has been supporting elementary education in Afghanistan since 1984, currently supports 422 boys schools, 125 girls schools and 897 mixed schools (co-education) in the forms of primary schools and home schools. During the survey, she concentrated on 100 SCA supported girls schools in the nine provinces: Kabul, Kunar, Laghman, Ningarhar, Ghzani, Logar, Paktika, Paktya and Wardak. All these provinces are under the administration of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. According to the survey, female attendance was at 94 per cent and of the 7834 girls enrolled, 7341 were found present. More significantly, at least 170 female teachers were found teaching in these schools. Similarly, in Kunduz province, 122 schools are operating with 390 female teachers teaching at the schools. The Islamic Emirate is ready to open girls and boys schools with appropriate foreign assistance.

Female Health Sector

Health facilities for women have increased 200% during Taleban administration. Prior to the Taleban Islamic Movement's taking control of Kabul, there were 350 beds in all hospitals in Kabul. Currently, there are more than 950 beds for women in exclusive women's hospitals. Some hospitals which have specifically been allocated to women include Rabia Balkhi Hospital, Malali Hospital, Khair Khana Hospital, Indira Gandhi Child Health Hospital, Atta Turk Hospital, Kuwait Red Crescent Hospital, Contagious Disease Hospital and T.B. Hospital. Moreover, there are 32 mother and child health clinics. In addition to this, women receive treatment at ICRC and the Sandy Gal Orthopaedic Centers. In all these hospitals and clinics, women work as doctors and nurses to provide health services to female patients.

Please also read Canadian Physician describes Healthcare in Afghanistan and American Journalists set the story straight on Afghanistan for further independent refutations on the ill treatment of women in Afghanistan.

hmm?
Reply

SilentObserver
02-26-2007, 07:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
The Taliban, Education and Health Policy Toward Girls. (untold Truth)

The Taliban and Women
The same articles from the sites that have since 'conveniently' closed down.

Everybody knows that the taliban were oppressors. Anyway, this is off-topic, and has nothing to do with the death of Basayev who committed unspeakable attrocities against civilians.
Reply

Chechen
02-26-2007, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
The same articles from the sites that have since 'conveniently' closed down.

Everybody knows that the taliban were oppressors. Anyway, this is off-topic, and has nothing to do with the death of Basayev who committed unspeakable attrocities against civilians.

No you are incorrect, this thread is about the courage and heroic acts of Basayev.
Reply

Count DeSheep
02-26-2007, 05:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechen
No you are incorrect, this thread is about the courage and heroic acts of Basayev.
No, you are both incorrect. This thread is about the good and the bad of Basayev. And I say that even though you're the one who started the thread, and therefore have the say in what it's about.

So there! =P
Reply

SilentObserver
02-27-2007, 01:35 AM
It's about idolizing a child killer.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
02-27-2007, 02:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
The same articles from the sites that have since 'conveniently' closed down.

Everybody knows that the taliban were oppressors. Anyway, this is off-topic, and has nothing to do with the death of Basayev who committed unspeakable attrocities against civilians.
No thats What the News told you, but i would agree that the Taliban were oppressing the enemies who OPPRESSED THEM FIRST.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-27-2007, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
No thats What the News told you, but i would agree that the Taliban were oppressing the enemies who OPPRESSED THEM FIRST.
Citizens of Afghanistan oppressed the taliban first? Girls wanting an education oppressed the taliban first?
Reply

mahdisoldier19
02-27-2007, 05:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Citizens of Afghanistan oppressed the taliban first? Girls wanting an education oppressed the taliban first?
Did you not read my other posts when i proved Girls were having Education? My female relatives had education, thats enough evidence for me. I would never lie to my muslim brothers and sisters, Indeed Oh Muslim Brothers and Sisters! Feeble is the plot of Shaitan to Disrupt the Truth about the Establishment of the Islamic Deen in the Lands of the Ummah! So do not fall prey to these evils, The Taliban did establish and education system for Females which was surely being implemented in almost every part of Afghanistan, however this was disrupted due to an Illegal Invasion..
Reply

SilentObserver
02-27-2007, 07:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Did you not read my other posts when i proved Girls were having Education? My female relatives had education, thats enough evidence for me. I would never lie to my muslim brothers and sisters, Indeed Oh Muslim Brothers and Sisters! Feeble is the plot of Shaitan to Disrupt the Truth about the Establishment of the Islamic Deen in the Lands of the Ummah! So do not fall prey to these evils, The Taliban did establish and education system for Females which was surely being implemented in almost every part of Afghanistan, however this was disrupted due to an Illegal Invasion..
We already established that you have not provided sources or adequate proof of anything other than the fact that the taliban were good fighters. A few priviledged women as opposed to the general population is hardly what I would call a good testimony of the truth under the taliban. Typically, those that lived a favorable lifestyle under the taliban, as opposed to the general population, will be the quickest to defend them.
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