PDA

View Full Version : for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun



Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 02:02 PM
"Say: Truth has arrived and falsehood has been vanquished, indeed falsehood by its very nature is bound to be vanquished." (Qur'an 17:81)

To the Sikhs on this board...

I have been reading your faith describes God as both Sargun AND Nirgun,

Sargun = being manifest in the creation
Nirgun = being un-manifest.


Surely these two matters are contradictory? How can God be both at the same time?
Have I misunderstood this or are these two contradictory concepts taught about God in the Sikhi faith?

Is this like the Muslim idea of God being outside the creation, but with us as humans being part of this creation we can see some of the beauties and wonders created by God and so realise he is there? Is this what you mean by Sargun?

Or do you literally mean that God manifests himself inside the creation in the same manner as the Hindus believe?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
AvarAllahNoor
02-08-2007, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

Is this like the Muslim idea of God being outside the creation, but with us as humans being part of this creation we can see some of the beauties and wonders created by God and so realise he is there? Is this what you mean by Sargun?

Or do you literally mean that God manifests himself inside the creation in the same manner as the Hindus believe?

Abu Abdullah
The regular debate from Islamic (semetic) side is about the Nirgun - Sargun attribute of Waheguru. So i feel this should be commented, all other details are perhaps not necessary as we humans could never totaly grasp Waheguru and the Personality.

So Nirgun and Sargun as actually words from the Advaitic thought (a part of Hindu philosophy). The meanings are nirgun 'without attributes' or 'free from three values (forms/shapes) of Maya' and sargun is 'with all attributes' or 'with three values of Maya'. So as Tawheed from a empirical (wordly/logical) point-of-view these concepts intercoined would mean a apposition. and as he said 'a can not be 'not a''.

before is go on to what Gurmat says about 'Nirgun-Sargun' it may be interesting to know something about the old Indian thoughts:
Shankra, a Hindu teolog said that Ishvar(a) was a lower stage of God, which was in Nirgun "stage" [being Transcended or outside universe]. Brahm is a higher "stage" of God. Ramunaj, another teolog meant that God is pantheistic, that God lives only in nature or can be "judged" through laws of energy/physics. He said Univsere, Souls and Ishvara are three eternal principles; universe and souls are the body and qualities of Brahm. These three eternal principles of Ishvara, souls and the world consitute Brahm, which is entirely different concept of One Creator, Waheguru.


The Gurus criticized such distinct phrasing of God into stages. Teologs were as now fighting that Ishvara / Brahm were sargun / nirgun, etc.
Guru Sahib in Sukhmani Sahib says:



He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.

Infact Gurus never accepted the Advaitic concepts of sargun and nirgun, for in Gurmat God is behond such limits. Waheguru is not an 'a' or 'not a'. God is eternal, infinite, without limits, but at the same time is God everywhere. Hence the Guru Sahib said 'God is both Sargun-Nirgun'

The NIRGUN (roughly translated as Transcended God) has been accepted by almost all religions...it means that God (either as The Eternal Creator or in some stage as in Hinduism) is outside creation or universe. Futher to this Gurmat says that being outside universe, God cannot be judges through our spacio-temporal logic, since God is beyond terms as space or time...as Nirgun, God was there before the creation of Universe. Creation in Sikhism is the appearence of Naam. unlike various Hindu concepts of a lower stage or higher stage God creating universe, Gurmat says the creation and governing of universe is infact a part of Naam (that can be said to be the 'word' or Will of Waheguru). When such a creation happends, things change. GOD IS STILL NIRGUN.

FORM appears, meaning things can be seen and judged by our spacio-temporal logic, now here Guru Sahib say that also in the universe (the creation or what could be seen) God exists. saying that God is only Nirgun means that GOD IS NOT in creation. then we have a place which our muslim brother calls 'not a'...BUT THERE IS NO PLACE WHERE GOD CANNOT BE! saying this would mean that God has a limit, ie that it does not enter the universe. The difference between Sikhism and some thoughts in Hinduism that could be identified as pantheism (that God is in nature) is that Sikhism also accepts the Nirgun attribute of God. For us, God is not only in nature, or what can bee seen through eyes, God is also beyond our imagination or phsyical understanding.
<

so the difference lays in WHAT WAY CREATION HAPPENS! The Semetic though has that God created creation of nothing, but Gurmat says that God created universe out of Himself. in teologic view it is called (ex-nihilo: creation from nothin, ex-deu: creation from God). this highlights a point that Gurmat accepts a view called monism; that means 'source of all (universe, humans, organism) is from One (God)'.

People confuse this with pantheism, but infact as Sikhism accepts BOTH NIRGUN AND SARGUN concepts God in Sikhism is still monotheistic. it may be also noted that these concepts are not "Sikh" concepts because when saying this Guru Sahib is actually criticizing the Hindu teories of a seperate Nirgun and a seperate Sargun at different high or low stages....God is Sikhism is IkOnkaar. ONE CREATOR ALL-EXISTENT GOD. in essense Guru Sahib is only making clear the All-existent God by saying he is both Nirgun and Sargun at once.
Reply

One Man Army
02-08-2007, 05:51 PM
looks like my previous post was deleted.... any how


1) Sargun (with attributes) and Nirgun (without attribute) is not a contradiction. --- this “contradiction” is even at face value no mistake. In the same line in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee it is written, “Sargun, Nirgun, the Formless One is in complete Samadhi” (Ang 290) and also “He is himself is Nirgun and he himself is also Sargun” (Ang 287).

Clearly where these are presented in the same verse, there must be a meaning or message. It has not been done accidentally or through oversight.

A simple answer to the apparent “contradiction” is this: God has existed forever. He is without start. He continues to exist. God is formless and his realm is Sachkhand. But just as the sun resides in one place but its rays are everywhere and felt everywhere, so is the nature of God. When God created Creation, He placed His jot or His light within it. Creation has his light within it and so it is not separated from him. When someone becomes spiritually enlightened through Naam, the light of God is seen from creation as well.
Reply

One Man Army
02-08-2007, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Post was deleted
akaaaaaaaaaal


I would just like to say however to muslims on this board that i am not no sikh scholor.. my knowledge of sikhi is very little, and i share with you what i have leart or gained through sikhi!
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Muhammad
02-08-2007, 06:53 PM
Greetings,

I deleted the initial post because it contained some inappropriate content, such as alleging that the Qur'an has contradictions. This is one of the reasons why we encourage a member's own words rather than simply copying and pasting. The following posts were then removed as they were in response to deleted posts; I assure you this has nothing to do with "censoring the truth".

Let's try to stick to the topic now, thank you.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
02-08-2007, 10:11 PM
Death is a better informatant about who is guided and who has been left astray. Regret then, is just that and of no use.

Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "My Lord! Send me back,
so that I may do good in that which I have left behind!" No! It is but a word that he speaks and behind them is a barrier until the Day when they will be resurrected.

And they will say: "Our Lord! Verily, we obeyed our chiefs and our great ones, and they misled us from the (Right) Way.


I have deleted the last few posts. Please try to remain on topic.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-09-2007, 01:01 AM
har ko naam lai ootam Dharmaa.

Chanting the Name of the Lord is the highest religion. (SSGS)
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-12-2007, 05:51 PM
there is still a contradiction there, i do not agree you have explained it at all.

you can say God was Nirgun and is now Sargun, though i would disagree with you on that also but you cannot say God is both at the same time, they are multually exclusive concepts and you havent explained it at all.

as for God being the creation, and the creation being God but please excuse my strength of feeling but that is worse disbelief than the christians.

there have been deviant disbelieving muslims who have said the same thing, that Allah is everywhere and in everything but this is on contradiction to reason as i have stated above as well as in contradiction to scripture from islam.

ibn tamiyyah, a medieval scholar said the so called muslims who believed Allah to be everywhere and in everything were worse disbelievers than the christians because they only place Allah in one part of the creation - jesus christ (peace be upon him) where as these people place Allah in all parts of the creation so their disbelief is worse.

so i dont believe you have explained the contradiction at all, God cannot both be manifest and un-manifest, two totally opposite attributes.

to qoute from Gary miller (though he was discussing God being man and God) he said take a ball of clay and make corners on it and square it off and it becomes a cube but dont tell me dont be fooled it is still a ball because it isnt, it has become a cube. and dont round it out and then call but it is still a cube because it isnt, it is now a ball.

simularly dont say God is both Nirgun and Sargun, because God cannot be both manifest and un-manifest in creation, both are totally opposite points.

everything has attributes by which it is known, Sargun and Nirgun are power opposite attributes and cannot both be true.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-12-2007, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

simularly dont say God is both Nirgun and Sargun, because God cannot be both manifest and un-manifest in creation, both are totally opposite points.

everything has attributes by which it is known, Sargun and Nirgun are power opposite attributes and cannot both be true.

Abu Abdullah
You underestimate the omnipotence of Allah

1 - nirgun sargun har har mayraa ko-ee hai jee-o aan milaavai jee-o. ||1||

My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||

(Guru Arjan Dev)

2 - nirgun sargun aapay so-ee.

The Lord Himself is Unmanifest and Unrelated; He is Manifest and Related as well.

(Guru Amar Das)

3 - eeghai nirgun ooghai sargun kayl karat bich su-aamee mayraa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

In this world, You are the absolute, formless Lord; in the world hereafter, You are the related Lord of form. You play it both ways, O my Lord and Master. ||1||Pause||

Guru Arjan Dev
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-13-2007, 09:40 AM
i am going to be honest, you qouting the Guru Granth Sahib only shows its flaws here.

the two are multually exclusive concepts and cannot be reconciled at all.

at the end of the day we may need to agree to differ here but to me this is a clear contradiction and flaw in the sikh faith and with the Guru Granth Sahib.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-13-2007, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i am going to be honest, you qouting the Guru Granth Sahib only shows its flaws here.

the two are multually exclusive concepts and cannot be reconciled at all.

at the end of the day we may need to agree to differ here but to me this is a clear contradiction and flaw in the sikh faith and with the Guru Granth Sahib.

Abu Abdullah
Why, because it's not feasible to you personally? - You asked a question, now you provide proof that Allah is not Manifest and unmanifest. Nirgun and Sargun! - What your opinion on it is irrelevant. Prove it wrong with cast iron evidence. And I'll reject what my Guru Granth Sahib states.

I'll await your reply brother! Bearing in mind, a few people have tired it before. Nothing has materialised as of yet. :D
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-13-2007, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Why, because it's not feasible to you personally? - You asked a question, now you provide proof that Allah is not Manifest and unmanifest. Nirgun and Sargun! - What your opinion on it is irrelevant. Prove it wrong with cast iron evidence. And I'll reject what my Guru Granth Sahib states.

I'll await your reply brother! Bearing in mind, a few people have tired it before. Nothing has materialised as of yet. :D
i believe Allah is outside the creation, above his arsh (throne), above the heavens. why do i believe this?

because Allah himself states it in the Quran. so how do i know the Quran is true? because i have subjected it to logical scutiny. have you subjected your book the Guru Granth Sahib to the same scutiny?

manifest and unmanifest are totally polar positions, Allah / God cannot be one and the other at the same time.

it is beyond us to prove this until the day of judgement, but if you search you reason you will see that Allah is not contradictory, Allah has given us good sense enough to see the right from the wrong path.

would you not agree with that? that Allah gives us the good sense to look for the truth and see the errors as best we can? yes we will make mistakes, we are only human but Allah has given us the capacity to see which path is true and which false?

one way we can do this is examine each path logically for flaws and errors, i havent found them in islam, but the more i examine sikhi the more i find them.

see also my thread

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ion-sikhs.html

where i can see another contradiction in the Guru Granth Sahib unless you can show i am wrong some how but it is an inherent contradiction again to believe in both reincarnation AND heaven and hell.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-13-2007, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i believe Allah is outside the creation, above his arsh (throne), above the heavens. why do i believe this?

because Allah himself states it in the Quran. so how do i know the Quran is true? because i have subjected it to logical scutiny. have you subjected your book the Guru Granth Sahib to the same scutiny?

manifest and unmanifest are totally polar positions, Allah / God cannot be one and the other at the same time.

it is beyond us to prove this until the day of judgement, but if you search you reason you will see that Allah is not contradictory, Allah has given us good sense enough to see the right from the wrong path.

would you not agree with that? that Allah gives us the good sense to look for the truth and see the errors as best we can? yes we will make mistakes, we are only human but Allah has given us the capacity to see which path is true and which false?

one way we can do this is examine each path logically for flaws and errors, i havent found them in islam, but the more i examine sikhi the more i find them.

Abu Abdullah
You're biased. - I'm not! - You believe what the Quran states, I the SGGS. - 1430 pages in SGGS evryone has been scrutinsed by theolgians. Not a single word is flawed.

But yes you are right. Allah has given us the right to choose what is right. I've found what is right. Equally you have too, becasue of what you believe!
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-13-2007, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You're biased. - I'm not! - You believe what the Quran states, I the SGGS. - 1430 pages in SGGS evryone has been scrutinsed by theolgians. Not a single word is flawed.

But yes you are right. Allah has given us the right to choose what is right. I've found what is right. Equally you have too, becasue of what you believe!
well i am not a theologian but i have found flaws, the more i read the more flaws i find.

it is beautiful book, dont get me wrong on that and full of good moral guidence but i was reading just today and on the same page it spoke of how the slanderer is going to hell, but then later it states the slanderer is to keep reincarnating... and yet a few lines down it says the slander is in hell,

clear contradictions and flaws in reasoning and logic.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-13-2007, 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
well i am not a theologian but i have found flaws, the more i read the more flaws i find.

it is beautiful book, dont get me wrong on that and full of good moral guidence but i was reading just today and on the same page it spoke of how the slanderer is going to hell, but then later it states the slanderer is to keep reincarnating... and yet a few lines down it says the slander is in hell,

clear contradictions and flaws in reasoning and logic.

Abu Abdullah

This is why you need to have an understanding. Some one learned needs to be there to explain to you.

You need a key

Hell = reincarnating etc - It's going to be difficult for you to fathom as I say, because some words used by various prophets are used but they mean a certain thing. - Do you understand what I'm saying?

These are misunderstandings, and not flaws *sighs* lol
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-13-2007, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

This is why you need to have an understanding. Some one learned needs to be there to explain to you.

You need a key

Hell = reincarnating etc - It's going to be difficult for you to fathom as I say, because some words used by various prophets are used but they mean a certain thing. - Do you understand what I'm saying?
i can understand you are saying this life is like a hell, but the muslims believe the same also. so you are saying it is a metaphor correct?

perhaps we could continue this discussion on the seperate thread i have created?

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ion-sikhs.html

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-07-2019, 12:09 PM
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh
Yes in sikhi no one can equate him no one equal to God
Speaking truth In guru granth sahib of sikhi
God is nirgun that is formless and without attributes also
God is sirgun that is with form and with attributes.
It is not contradiction if you understand completely what sikhi says
In page 1349 guru granth sahib
ਅਵਲ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad?
In sikhi we believe light of God created entire universe and beings are made.
So the formless god has made creation by his light which is not normal light though Thus god is connected with beings and exist in form .
Light also posses both wave particle nature as proved in science
And in page 30 guru granth sahib says God
ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੪੪॥
O Nanak, the One Light has two forms; through the Shabad, union is attained.
Thus light of God has two forms
One formless in wave nature
One with form in particle nature
So there is no doubt god is both nirgun and sirgun
But remember nirgun is not equal to sirgun
Because
In page 130 guru granth sahib says guru arjan
ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਲਵੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
There is no other Giver as Great as You, O my Lord and Master. None approach or equal You.
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 11:42 AM
I am not familiar with sikhism. But I am going to use my logic here.

Knowing that Allah is omnipotent...means, He can be anywhere at the same time...He can be anything. nothing is impossible for Allah...even things that are totally contradictory to each other is not impossible for Allah. So Sargun or nirgun...if they mean being manifest and being un-manifest in the creation...Allah can be both at the same time.

However, this does not mean that Allah actually IS anywhere and anything. So, at this point I have to agree with Dawud. He has the potential to be anywhere...to manifest himself into rocks, trees, plants, water, fire, etc, etc...but He is only in one place like Dawud said: outside the creation, above his arsh (throne), above the heavens. Yes, you can see and feel His presence within all creation....but that doesn't mean He actually is a part of that creation.
That would be pantheism. We Muslims do not worship rocks and trees or anything else...We worship Allah only.
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 12:22 PM
I think you didn't read above comment carefully read it you will get why Sikhs believe nirgun sirgun!!
Second think we consider Almighty as infinite so it possess all things infinite whether size,light,power etc
So saying Almighty omnipresent we talk about it's infinite nature
Tell me what quran and Hadith says about size of Allah !
Any reference provide

- - - Updated - - -

Every creation is part of Almighty check above
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by Gurdeep singh
I think you didn't read above comment carefully read it you will get why Sikhs believe nirgun sirgun!!
Second think we consider Almighty as infinite so it possess all things infinite whether size,light,power etc
So saying Almighty omnipresent we talk about it's infinite nature
Tell me what quran and Hadith says about size of Allah !
Any reference provide
No I DID read the above comment carefully, but me as an average muslim know too little about Sikhism to fully understand the explanation.
Since a couple of months I have a sikh colleague which is why I am suddenly interested in the subject. Before that, I had nothing to do with sikhism.
So, one day I asked him what he believed. We did not have a long conversation about religion, but he gave a short explanation that Sikhism is a mix of Islaam and Hinduism.
They believe in one God ( in what form he did not explain), and that they do not eat pork, because of the muslims, and they do not eat beef because of Hinduism.
That was his only explanation.

About you asking about size of Allah in Quraan and Hadith...what exactly are you looking for? please elaborate.
I do not wish to attack your religion...I just wish to have a decent and respectful discussion and learn more about the religion of my direct colleague.
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 12:33 PM
I advice don't read Sikhs read their scriptures carefully
This is absolutely a wrong statement sikhi is not mixture!
Such statements are used for Islam like Islam is mixture of Zoroastrianism,Judaism and Christianity which is absolutely nonsense.
So I also believe in healthy discussion

- - - Updated - - -

So did you understand
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by Gurdeep singh
I advice don't read Sikhs read their scriptures carefully
This is absolutely a wrong statement sikhi is not mixture!
Such statements are used for Islam like Islam is mixture of Zoroastrianism,Judaism and Christianity which is absolutely nonsense.
So I also believe in healthy discussion
No, do not get me wrong, I am not stating that sikhism is a mixture...I am just saying that a colleague as a sikh gave me that answer...on the other hand I have to say that his parents were sikhs, and he himself does not have much connection with his religion, because he eats everything.

But you surely understand my confusion when I got such an answer and having absolutely minimum knowledge about sikhism.
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 12:41 PM
About size of Allah it is necessary to know as Muslims claim Allah is above throne on 7th heaven so is Allah finite or infinite in Islam then you can have authority to challenge infinity of waheguru omnipresence of sikhi
It is wrong sikhi is not mixture
Even Islam is not mixture of Judaism Christianity and Zoroastrianism

- - - Updated - - -

So brother do some research about sikhi
I am also researching Islam but do not believe in statement of anybody unless and until evidence is provided!
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Gurdeep singh
About size of Allah it is necessary to know as Muslims claim Allah is above throne on 7th heaven so is Allah finite or infinite in Islam then you can have authority to challenge infinity of waheguru omnipresence of sikhi
It is wrong sikhi is not mixture
Even Islam is not mixture of Judaism Christianity and Zoroastrianism
OK, here we have a start.
Allah is absolutely infinite, no beginning, no end. He CAN be anywhere and anything. This does not mean that He is anywhere and anything. He does not need to. He is above his throne above the heavens...whatever or wherever that exactly means or is?...no one knows exactly.
But you can see His signs in all his creation.

Compare it with a painter if you like...A painter paints...that is what he does....a painter does not manifest himself into his paintings...but you can recognize the painter through his paintings. So also with Allah...Allah creates...that is what He does. He does not manifest himself in his creation although He can...and you can recognize Allah through his creations.

That in short is what we Muslims believe.
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 12:49 PM
When we Sikhs say Almighty is infinite so always remember we can not even imagine infinity of almighty so we do not put limitations on almighty in specific location

- - - Updated - - -

So are you clear
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 12:59 PM
We neither put limitations on Almighty. We only give this answer about His throne because that is literally stated in the Quraan, and it is the only thing that gives a clue about His location. But when you're saying that He manifests himself in His creation, then you are kinda putting limitations on His creation, don't you think? Besides, everything around you then suddenly becomes divine. suddenly walking on stones, taking a dump on a rock becomes blasphemy...because God manifests himself on that very rock.

Or am I thinking wrong at this moment?
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 01:10 PM
See in sikhi almighty from his own power created living being and universe but they are not completel manifestation rather a very little part of Almighty !
Morever Almighty in sikhi being infinite is all prevading but still it is invisible for a normal human as he has not explored him !
So divinity only comes when you got to know about presence of almighty by your inner soul
I am talking about faith in God

- - - Updated - - -

So manifestation is just a little part and it will be foolishness to put limitation as our Sikh scriptures attribute Almighty as bayant(infinite)

- - - Updated - - -

For almighty his creation can not effect him even by scratch because it is supreme
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 01:16 PM
no you are right. we cannot harm Allah in any way....I agree with you on that....but still...
Even if an infinite small part of Allah manifested on a rock...it would still be blasphemy to touch it with your foot.
How can I live on a planet when Allah manifested himself in everything around me? I would be committing blashphemy every second of my entire miserable life.
Do you understand what I am saying?
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 01:24 PM
Yes almighty is of very high position
We are puppets and almighty is the puppeter
Everything is in his control as I walk I talk everything so taking these action blasphemy is not accurate as I am puppet
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 01:32 PM
now that I think about it...that also means that a very little part of God manifests in unpure things like toilets, human and animal feaces, in animal carcasses, etc. etc.
So you also have to treat such things with respect. So everything suddenly is of much more value than myself. how to cope with that?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Gurdeep singh
Yes almighty is of very high position
We are puppets and almighty is the puppeter
Everything is in his control as I walk I talk everything so taking these action blasphemy is not accurate as I am puppet
So you are suggesting that as you are a puppet, you are not responsible for your own actions?

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry if I aks too many questions...but as a muslim...that sounds wrong because we believe that we are totally responsible of our own actions. We are not just puppets but we make our own decisions.
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 01:35 PM
Brother almighty creation has no flaw
Even science says faeces can be used as fuel in future
Impurity comes due to contamination
We human ourselves are so much contaminated our bone marrow is so smelly we sweat sometimes we have sperm leakage menstruation etc but these impurities do not cause anything to Almighty at all
As all are minute part so there is no problem but idolatry is wrong as they are created things not the actual creator

- - - Updated - - -

God has given us brain and nerves we are facing examination

- - - Updated - - -

So you are right in saying we have little power to control our actions
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 01:39 PM
thanks for your answers so far...I see we have a lot in common. We also think we are facing examination...but just to make sure...and I im interested in your answer:
How you you see this examination?
If we are just puppets, we just say and move in any direction God dictates us? so what exactly is then being examined?

Besides, God is omnipotent isn't he? So He knows everything already...so why this examination then?
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 01:47 PM
Almighty has provided us five senses
Almighty plays himself by his power but he has granted us sense but still we can not overcome the creator in his actions he does.
Almighty test his creation like you and me to judge who remember him!
If he already knows future still he tests to find who has kept faith in him or not
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 02:06 PM
İF he knows the future? so may İ assume you are doubting that?
if God is omnipotent...then He knows the future for sure...but if He does know the future...then why the examination part? He doesn't need to examine us...right? so what am İ missing?
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 02:21 PM
No I am not doubting
Almighty plays due to supreme position
It is his wish
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 02:41 PM
OK...to summarize you:
God is omnipotent and therefore knows the future.
He certainly does not need to examine us but still wishes that.
İt is His Wish so it is not to us to question His wishes.

İ could respect that answer. Thank you for being patient with me.

Still...İ would give you the İslamic version of this answer.
we totally agree with that answer...
Allah does not need to test us...He already knows the outcome of this examination.
However...this examination is not meant for Allah...it is meant for ourselves.
İf Allah would create us and just throw us in Hell just like that...we would complain: "why God? what did İ do to deserve this?" and His answer would be something like "because İ know you better than you know yourself"
...but we just would not understand that answer...and worse...we would think that Allah is an unjust God.
so by making us come to this world first...he makes us witnesses of our own actions and decisions. Then we suddenly understant completely why we are placed in heaven and hell.

but this only makes sense if:
-we believe in heaven and hell...and not hell as in reincarnation back to this world,
-we have a total free will and we are responsible of our own actions...so we are not just puppets.
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 02:49 PM
Quran in surrah 13 Al read ayat 39
"Allāh erases what He wills (of His revelations and laws and of the deeds of His servants) and affirms what He wills and with Him is the Mother of the Book."
So I am not wrong in saying we are slaves but we have sense that us true we have to work to control our senses in perfect way !
Yes we are puppets but but we are granted with little brain body power
We are just slaves and master test who remains loyal to him
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 03:03 PM
İ never said you were wrong on that part...we really are Allahs slaves...and everything happens just like Allah has written beforehand what is going to happen. everything we do and decide is already been written down...but still this does not mean we are just puppets and we just do only that what has been ordered us to do.
we make our decisions ourselves...not that we make certain decisions just because we are supposed to make that very decision. sounds contradicting but it is really not.
we are therefore 100% responsible of our own decisions...so we cannot just say "i only did that because it already was written. İ was supposed to do that". that is not a valid answer on judgement day.
Reply

Gurdeep singh
06-11-2019, 03:07 PM
But your good book quran in 13:39 says almighty can decide
Yes on other side you are right we have got sense powers
100 percent is not correct ,nature and other things besides our body are governed by almighty like rain,sunrise etc .
Yes future is decided but brain has been gifted to control
Reply

Ümit
06-11-2019, 03:24 PM
no. rain, sunrise, location where you are only steer you towards certain good and bad opportunities...the decision to grab a good or bad opportunity comes 100% from ourselves. so there is a difference.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 24
    Last Post: 02-24-2008, 05:49 PM
  2. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 10-23-2007, 01:08 AM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-19-2007, 11:54 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-03-2006, 09:33 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!