Queen Rania : Muslim Women dont have to wear veils

[Mawaddah]

ROME (AFP) - Islam does not require women to wear veils, Queen Rania al-Abdullah of Jordan has said in an interview, calling on Muslim moderates to "make their voices be heard."


"Islam neither requires one to be practising, nor to dress in one way or another," the stylish 36-year-old queen told the Italian daily Corriere della Sera during a visit to Rome on Friday.

"So imposing the veil on a woman is contrary to the principles of Islam," said Queen Rania, who is in Rome for the launch of a Group of Seven (G7) programme to develop vaccines against diseases that are endemic in poor countries.

"Unfortunately, after all the suspicion weighing on Islam, many people have begun to consider the veil as a political problem, but this is not the case," she told Corriere. "Wearing the veil is a free personal choice."

Queen Rania urged "all moderates to stand up and let their voices be heard."

She added: "Many people are frustrated in the Arab world. Many give in to the anger because they are accused of violence. But instead we should get up, explain who we are and what we believe in.

"Over the last three years, most victims of terrorism have been Muslim. So there's not a war between Muslims and non-Muslims, but between extremists and moderates of all the religions," the queen said.

"What is important is not to live in fear. The most dangerous (thing to do) is to give up and lose hope. The main enemy is not terrorism or extremism, but ignorance," she said.

Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070209...m_070209114132

[jello]

:sl:

Would be better if the Queen gave some scholarly evidence for this claim, otherwise she is just making up her own religion- "Raniaism".

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Narrated 'Abdullah and Abu Musa: The Prophet said,

"Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which Religious ignorance will spread, knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and there will be much Al-Harj, and Al-Harj means killing."

[Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 88 :: Hadith 184]

[Malaikah]

"Islam neither requires one to be practising, nor to dress in one way or another," the stylish 36-year-old queen told the Italian daily Corriere della Sera during a visit to Rome on Friday.

:sl:

What?!:muddlehea

Hasn't she ever heard of a little something called hell?:rolleyes:

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[cihad]

Raniaism...lol

[Fishman]

:sl:
These people are not moderate Muslims, they are liberals, the other extreme.
:w:

[Trumble]

:sl:

Would be better if the Queen gave some scholarly evidence for this claim, otherwise she is just making up her own religion- "Raniaism".

That 'claim' was a mainstream position until relatively recently (and it is still by far an uncommon one). It is up to those who believe the contrary to produce such 'scholary evidence' and explain why it was not universally accepted before.

Good on her. Why should women who do not wish to wear the veil, and who do not believe Islam requires it, have it forced on them by other people? Maybe they have more faith than some that muslim men are capable of looking at a woman without having 'impure thoughts' they are somehow compelled to act on.

[Malaikah]

^That is an over simplification Trumble. If she was saying her own opinion, fine. But the fact that she is acting like that is really what Islam teaches if the annoying part.

It is more that just about the veil. Heaps of scholars over Islamic history have insisted that the viel is obligatory, and at the same time heaps have said it isn't. And they ALL agree it is at least encouraged! Who is she to say it has no place in Islam?

Where she said:

Islam neither requires one to be practising, nor to dress in one way or another

That is just completely false. If you are a Muslim you are expected to act like one. And if you don't, hell waits for you. How can Islam not require people to act in certain ways and at the same time destine those people to hell for not doing it?

If Islam truly didn't require people to do certain things then there would not be any punishment in store for them. But that is not the case.

[islamway]

"He who pleases the people by Angering Allah, Allah will entrust him to the people", And for Assisting them in sin and transgression, as Allah (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala) says: {Help you one another in al-Birr and at-Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression} [5:2]. Aboo Alee Ad-Daqqaaq (Rh) Rightly said: "The Silent individual who does not reply to the Truth is a mute shaytaan and the spokesman for falsehood is an eloquent shaytaan!"

[Idris]

ROME (AFP) - Islam does not require women to wear veils, Queen Rania al-Abdullah of Jordan has said in an interview, calling on Muslim moderates to "make their voices be heard."

what the hell is a Moderate muslim?

I just hate this word that the west made up.

[Bittersteel]

moderate=weak and liberal and a puppet.

[Abdul Fattah]

That 'claim' was a mainstream position until relatively recently (and it is still by far an uncommon one). It is up to those who believe the contrary to produce such 'scholary evidence' and explain why it was not universally accepted before.

Good on her. Why should women who do not wish to wear the veil, and who do not believe Islam requires it, have it forced on them by other people? Maybe they have more faith than some that muslim men are capable of looking at a woman without having 'impure thoughts' they are somehow compelled to act on.

it's not a matter of having it forced or not. It's just that her views are unislamic. She has every right to believe whatever it is she wants to believe, but she has no right claiming her believes are Islamicly when her views clearly contradict basic parts of the Islamic faith.

[Umar001]

That 'claim' was a mainstream position until relatively recently (and it is still by far an uncommon one). It is up to those who believe the contrary to produce such 'scholary evidence' and explain why it was not universally accepted before.

Good on her. Why should women who do not wish to wear the veil, and who do not believe Islam requires it, have it forced on them by other people? Maybe they have more faith than some that muslim men are capable of looking at a woman without having 'impure thoughts' they are somehow compelled to act on.

Is it just for Muslim men?

Furthermore, what is good about not knowing one's religion. If a person wishes not to wear the veil or fast or what ever than that is upto the person, but for the person to make a claim that Islam is or isnt something and not bring evidence, that is borederline total misguidance.

I wonder how many people would like to have their children being told their parents are robbers or something and the parents saying 'Oh its no problem she doesnt have to bring no evidence if she feels Im a robber then she can tell who she likes'

Having said the above I do not really want to speak on the lady and I hope she didnt say the above insha'Allah and may Allah curse those who lie about and slander others.

[zaki.aumeerudy]

ROME (AFP) - Islam does not require women to wear veils, Queen Rania al-Abdullah of Jordan has said in an interview, calling on Muslim moderates to "make their voices be heard."


"Islam neither requires one to be practising, nor to dress in one way or another," the stylish 36-year-old queen told the Italian daily Corriere della Sera during a visit to Rome on Friday.

"So imposing the veil on a woman is contrary to the principles of Islam," said Queen Rania, who is in Rome for the launch of a Group of Seven (G7) programme to develop vaccines against diseases that are endemic in poor countries.

"Unfortunately, after all the suspicion weighing on Islam, many people have begun to consider the veil as a political problem, but this is not the case," she told Corriere. "Wearing the veil is a free personal choice."

Queen Rania urged "all moderates to stand up and let their voices be heard."

She added: "Many people are frustrated in the Arab world. Many give in to the anger because they are accused of violence. But instead we should get up, explain who we are and what we believe in.

"Over the last three years, most victims of terrorism have been Muslim. So there's not a war between Muslims and non-Muslims, but between extremists and moderates of all the religions," the queen said.

"What is important is not to live in fear. The most dangerous (thing to do) is to give up and lose hope. The main enemy is not terrorism or extremism, but ignorance," she said.

Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070209...m_070209114132

1:first the source may not be good , i have seen journalist putting things in newspapers and when they are asked about they say that they found that somewhere and after investigating in that somewhere we did not find it anywhere and finally they do not know what to say ,it is quite easy specially when theperson is not a muslim but married to a ruler in a country to say false things on them and this is usually taken into account by majority of muslims because it is a famous newspaper or a famous news source
I prefer on mypart to stay away from these because the principle of our enemies are clear and need to be read .to control shaytwaan we msut know how he attacks

[Naheezah]

either way we do know very well dat Queen Rania doesnt wear anykind of a veil..i mean hijaab etc..it's clear in all of her pics...:p

[zaki.aumeerudy]

either way we do know very well dat Queen Rania doesnt wear anykind of a veil..i mean hijaab etc..it's clear in all of her pics...:p

u are right but i do not want to accuse someone just he or sahe may be of another faith to hava said something against islaam without any real proof

there has been a case where there was a raid in a mosque but it was done with respect
the police remove their shoes entered the mosque peacefully looking for guns and money taken by thieves. Moreover the muslims said they came with dogs in the mosque and were very harsh against the muslim . In fact the latter was not true confirmed by one muslim who was there .there were only four people at that time in the mosque.Do u know what happens after islamic newspaper published falsehood on the police
The muslim population were arrested ,taken to police for interrogation and were very annoyed everywhere in the country
nOW SOME OF THESE MUSLIMS HAS BEEN CAUGHT AGAIN WITH GUNS AND ARMS ALWAYS ATTACKING Banks,etc

[Fishman]

moderate=weak and liberal and a puppet.

:sl:
Actually: moderate=not going to extremes. Liberals are the ones who are trying to pander to whatever the public desires of them, not moderates. Although liberals do actually claim to be moderates quite often.
:w:

[rania2820]

:sl:

Raniaism".

.LOL. its funny because my name is Rania as well.
anyway.queen Rania is not a moderate Muslim she's a liberal muslim.she's just talking out of ignorance.may allah guide her to the correct path ameen.

[Pk_#2]

Ameen!

[north_malaysian]

Here comes Ayatollah Rania or Sheikha Al shuyukh Rania....:okay:

[LoL12]

I think what everyone is forgetting to point out, is that Queen Rania was misquoted by the AFP! The interview was published in Italian, and when it was translated into English, everything she said was distorted. Here is a copy of the *actual* transcript:

What needs to be done to bridge the gap between East and West today?
Queen Rania: There is so much diversity in our countries today, so many people coming from different backgrounds, histories, geographies … are now coming together and sharing the same borders and so the issue of multiculturalism becomes very important, how do we maintain social harmony amongst such diversity and the most important thing, I think, is to focus on the values of reaching out to one another of engaging one another of interaction of arming ourselves with knowledge of different peoples and through that through this kind of mutual knowledge, and the building of respect then you can get acceptance. I always say that multiculturalism is not just about being in the same neighbourhood I think you need to knock on the door and enter your neighbour’s house, that is multiculturalism, interaction so I would say yes tolerance is good but it is not enough we have to take it the next level and aspire to something higher, which is acceptance among people.

You are insisting on this since the being so I remember when I had the opportunity to interview you in 2001, after 9/11. Sometimes we have the impression, not only that we do not know each other – the west and the Muslim world – but that we don’t want to know the other. So what can be dome to emphasize this dialogue, this mutual knowing between people?
Queen Rania: I think you’re right, people sometimes don’t want to know each other…I think what’s happened is that we’ve let stereotypes become so widely spread amongst people, and we rely on these stereotypes, although they are just a shortcut, and they rob us of accurate perspective of people, because we just use labels- very superficial labels, and as a result of relying on these labels, we kind of shelter ourselves in our own little shell and don’t reach out so it’s very important for us to really break down these barriers of mistrust and suspicion. I think what happens is that when you rely on stereotypes, you get a sense of mistrust and suspicion between people and therefore they don’t want to have this interaction and acceptance. I think the solution is for people to really arm themselves with knowledge, but knowledge is not enough, knowledge of the other is not enough. We need to reach out and interact, and come out of your comfort zone. It’s very easy for us to really sort of shelter ourselves and create barriers, and not to reach out to the other, to the unknown. I think we have to venture and reach out to the unknown. And when we do that, we’re going to find out how similar those ‘so-called’ others are to us. At the end of the day, I think we are all combined by our humanity, our similarities. We all have the same issues, aspirations, and challenges and we want the same thing for ourselves and our children. And I think only by reaching out of our comfort zone and going to the other person that you actually realize that these similarities exist.

Do you feel, Your Majesty, today in the world, in our world, and in the Muslim world, that there is the will to know each other…are you an optimist in this climate, or are you a pessimist?
Queen Rania: I think that the will, will come from the need, and there certainly is a need. You know, if you look at our world today, there are so many divisions, there’s so much mistrust, there’s so much suspicion, and that is leading to a fragmented world, that lead sometimes to dangerous acts, acts of extremism, acts of intolerance, and sometimes terrorism so it is affecting our lives. I think, as I said, for societies to succeed in the 21st century, they really have to embrace diverse people from diverse backgrounds, they really have to succeed in multiculturism, and I think that need is going to be the impetus, or the reason that will make people reach out to one another and try to break through the misunderstandings. I think, you know, among the moderates, there is a will to reach out, there is a will to create bridges of understanding, but sometimes the moderates, their voices are sometimes not heard, and I think it is up to them to really stand up, to be more proactive and be more forceful in their message, and to really drown out the voices of extremists by fostering strong bonds.

You did a big march in Amman against the violence, against the terrorism, and so this was the first time for an Arab country to give this kind of message, and don’t you think it would be nice to have this kind of message in other Arab countries?
Queen Rania: Absolutely, I think in the Arab world, sometimes we’re very frustrated and disappointed with some of the stereotypes that are levelled at Muslims and Arabs, and sometimes we react with anger when people accuse of being violent or extreme. I think it’s our responsibility, first of all, to stand up and say who we are as Arabs and Muslims, and try to explain to the world what our values are, what we stand for, and to make the world realise that we are just likely to be victims as terrorist as non-Muslims. In fact, when you look at the acts of terrorism that have taken place over the past few years, you will find that the majority of victims have been Muslims. We have to realise that we are in this together. This is not a fight between Muslims and non-Muslims, this is a fight between extremists from all religions, and moderates from all religions. This is how we have to look at the battle lines, this is how we have to define ourselves.

…The important thing is to reach people, to have the help and support of other people in this battle?
Queen Rania: Absolutely, and I don’t think that this is such an overarching challenge for our century, and such a daunting task to really break through mindsets, that cannot be done by one person, cannot by two people, and I think it has to be a culture of being proactive and a culture of standing up and trying to explain the values of moderation. It has to be a movement, and I’m hoping that, you know, in the Muslim world, we can start to accept diversity first of all within Islam and more tolerance within Islam, and beyond that, try to reach out for the rest of the world with acceptance and with a moderate view.

Your Majesty, it Italy, in France and in other countries there is a lot of discussion about the veil, here there is a lot of confusion… a lot of ignorance what does it mean veil, perhaps we do not understand what does it mean or you were not about to explain what does it mean because I think that someone is giving the veil a political symbol, weight and not what is the veil…where do you find the problem of misunderstanding is?
Queen Rania: Unfortunately because Islam is being brought under suspicion over the last few years, people have started to look at the veil as a political issue. What is important, is the veil is a symbol of piety, of modesty, of devotion to God and sometimes a woman wears the veil because that is what is socially acceptable within her surroundings but it should never be viewed as something that can be divisive between communities and certainly sometimes I feel that there is so much judgement levelled at women based on what they are wearing. I always say we shouldn’t judge women by what is on their heads but by what is in their heads.
It is very dangerous when we start making assumptions about a person based on outward external façade. When I look at people when I visit the Arab world or abroad I try to pass judgement based on how they think, what they do, what their values are and not what they are wearing. It is very dangerous when you make judgements based on what they are wearing.

Because a lot of the Muslim societies feel marginalized, and feel that they have not been integrated well in some of the European societies and elsewhere and because some of the authorities are looking at Islam with suspicion, unfortunately this issue has become highly politicized so it carries a lot of political symbolism and that is something we have to fight against because it shouldn’t. How a woman dresses should not have so much of a political dimension to it.

It is a relationship between a woman and God and I think at the end of the day societies have to accept that in today’s world we will be different, outwardly and inwardly, but the idea is to try to create harmony nonetheless.
But of course we cannot accept coercion in Islam?
Queen Rania: There is no coercion in Islam. In Islam you are not supposed to force somebody to believe. As I said, Islam is all about conviction, it is all about belief and if you force someone to do something if they do not believe in it then that is against the whole essence of what Islam is all about. Islam is very much about intention and that is an essential part of Islam, intentions.

[Malaikah]

Jazakaallah khayr for that.

Typical of the media to misquote.:rolleyes:

[SilentObserver]

:sl:

Would be better if the Queen gave some scholarly evidence for this claim, otherwise she is just making up her own religion- "Raniaism".

but for the person to make a claim that Islam is or isnt something and not bring evidence, that is borederline total misguidance.

Does anyone here that claims that islam is something, have any evidence that explicitly says that a veil must be worn?

[Malaikah]

See here:

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=21134&ln=eng

[SilentObserver]

See here:

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=21134&ln=eng

I said explicitly. There is nothing there. Some persons interpretation. Does it say it in the Quran?

[Malaikah]

Um, why do you think there is such a strong difference in opinion? There is nothing too explicit on the topic. If there was, we would all be wearing the veil.

[SilentObserver]

Um, why do you think there is such a strong difference in opinion? There is nothing too explicit on the topic. If there was, we would all be wearing the veil.

So why do so many say that if Queen Rania is to say such a thing then she should provide evidence? Yet noone offers real evidence to the contrary. Why? Because by your own words, there is no evidence. It has become a custom, while not a real requirement. The queen was only saying what is true.

[Malaikah]

I said there is no STRONG evidence. The problem with what she appeared to have said is that the veil is 100% out of place in Islam, which is NOT true- there is evidence it was worn, in fact the Prophets wives wore it, the problem is only concerning whether it is obligatory or only strongly recommended.

Anyway, LoL12 has shown that she did not say that at all, and that she was misquoted, so alhadmulillah.

[SilentObserver]

I said there is no STRONG evidence.

So there is only weak evidence. Ok.

[north_malaysian]

To Queen Rania: I'm so sorry calling you Ayatollah etc...imsad

[syilla]

I think what everyone is forgetting to point out, is that Queen Rania was misquoted by the AFP! The interview was published in Italian, and when it was translated into English, everything she said was distorted. Here is a copy of the *actual* transcript:

Alhamdulillah u have the copy of the original.
Erm...btw....are u queen rania? how do u get it? :smile:

Erm...if u are Queen Rania. :coolalien

Please forgive us (on behalf of the posters here) for being so ignorant. :embarrass

[Dawud_uk]

ROME (AFP) - Islam does not require women to wear veils, Queen Rania al-Abdullah of Jordan has said in an interview, calling on Muslim moderates to "make their voices be heard."


"Islam neither requires one to be practising, nor to dress in one way or another," the stylish 36-year-old queen told the Italian daily Corriere della Sera during a visit to Rome on Friday.

"So imposing the veil on a woman is contrary to the principles of Islam," said Queen Rania, who is in Rome for the launch of a Group of Seven (G7) programme to develop vaccines against diseases that are endemic in poor countries.

"Unfortunately, after all the suspicion weighing on Islam, many people have begun to consider the veil as a political problem, but this is not the case," she told Corriere. "Wearing the veil is a free personal choice."

Queen Rania urged "all moderates to stand up and let their voices be heard."

She added: "Many people are frustrated in the Arab world. Many give in to the anger because they are accused of violence. But instead we should get up, explain who we are and what we believe in.

"Over the last three years, most victims of terrorism have been Muslim. So there's not a war between Muslims and non-Muslims, but between extremists and moderates of all the religions," the queen said.

"What is important is not to live in fear. The most dangerous (thing to do) is to give up and lose hope. The main enemy is not terrorism or extremism, but ignorance," she said.

Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070209...m_070209114132

assalaamu alaykum,

i will not take my deen from a fasiq queen, wife of an apostate king who walks on the cat walks of the world whilst he brothers and sisters are murdered and in many cases tortured and killed by her own husbands armed forces.

may Allah swt destroy this evil family and all other apostate rulers.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[S_87]

:sl:

i just hate it when these people try to modernise the religion to fit in :rolleyes:

[Sami Zaatari]

lol it is funny, because the queen is talking about making peace and understanding each other, then u get these western italians misquoting her and making a silly questions to her which are abit provacative ohhhhhhh we cant allow forcing of things In Islam etc what the heck is that about?! this all just proves that no matter what a muslim says or does these people in europe and the west will never be satisfied and will always be looking to cause trouble as this proves, and this case proves it! so folks its not a matter of being kind to one another and smiling and accepting each other, nop, it has nothing to do with that, these people basically want all us muslims to leave Islam and to be like them, and as the Quran says they will NEVER be satisfied with us until we leave Islam and completly follow their ways.

[LoL12]

Alhamdulillah u have the copy of the original.
Erm...btw....are u queen rania? how do u get it? :smile:

Erm...if u are Queen Rania. :coolalien

Please forgive us (on behalf of the posters here) for being so ignorant. :embarrass

For the past few years I've been very interested in the queen's activities- what she says, does, etc- so I make it a point to follow those things. The official transcript was released a few days ago... and a friend of mine who happens to speak some italian read the interview in Corriere and told me it says the same thing as the official transcript... it's the articles that translated what was written in the Italian newspaper that got it wrong...

[Dawud_uk]

For the past few years I've been very interested in the queen's activities- what she says, does, etc- so I make it a point to follow those things. The official transcript was released a few days ago... and a friend of mine who happens to speak some italian read the interview in Corriere and told me it says the same thing as the official transcript... it's the articles that translated what was written in the Italian newspaper that got it wrong...

she is still a fasiq and she is still married to a kaffir apostate and so she is not in any position to lecture us on islam.

Abu Abdullah

[zaki.aumeerudy]

:sl:

.LOL. its funny because my name is Rania as well.
anyway.queen Rania is not a moderate Muslim she's a liberal muslim.she's just talking out of ignorance.may allah guide her to the correct path ameen.

good way of thinking

[Chuck]

moderate=weak and liberal and a puppet.

This is ridiculous definition of moderate muslim. Islam is a moderate religion, I consider myself moderate but pray 5 times a day and sometimes 6 times (night prayers).

[Dawud_uk]

This is ridiculous definition of moderate muslim. Islam is a moderate religion, I consider myself moderate but pray 5 times a day and sometimes 6 times (night prayers).

but what does the rest of the world think of as a moderate muslim?

someone who will compromise the deen of Allah, change their ways to please the kuffar, some even dont consider you moderate unless you are willing to say certain verses of the Quran are incorrect.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Chuck]

:sl: bro,

but what does the rest of the world think of as a moderate muslim?

someone who will compromise the deen of Allah, change their ways to please the kuffar, some even dont consider you moderate unless you are willing to say certain verses of the Quran are incorrect.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Well, then they have incorrect definition of being a moderate muslim. Their definition doesn't really matter to me, only thing that matters is how Allah (swt) and His prophet (pbuh) defined moderation.

:w:

[Cognescenti]

Forcing Queen Rania to wear a veil would be am aesthetic crime against humanity...in my opinion.

[Chuck]

Forcing Queen Rania to wear a veil would be am aesthetic crime against humanity...in my opinion.

Nobody is forcing her to wear veil.

[Cognescenti]

Nobody is forcing her to wear veil.

And the world is a better place for that.

[north_malaysian]

Maybe we should invite Queen Rania in this forum...:D .. as she loves to talk about Muslims and Islam..

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

And people trust Western sources, go figure.

Maybe we should invite Queen Rania in this forum...:D .. as she loves to talk about Muslims and Islam..

^^Lol, how would we go about doing that? Lets write her a letter :D

[north_malaysian]

And people trust Western sources, go figure.



^^Lol, how would we go about doing that? Lets write her a letter :D

or a petition online.... :D

Maybe we should invite George W. Bush, the Pope, Ehud Olmert, Putin, Ahmadinejad too....:p

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol, that'd be too freaky :offended:

[Skillganon]

I wonder does she has a crown?

If yes does it fit her head?

[Cognescenti]

Political views aside...she is the best looking Queen I have ever seen.

I realize this may seem trivial :smile:

[SilentObserver]

:sl:

i just hate it when these people try to modernise the religion to fit in :rolleyes:

I hate to break it to you, but at one time Islam was more modern in every way than it is today. Actually, let me rephrase that. The way that muslims practice and interpret islam today, is centuries behind the way it was in the 12th century.
Muslims today that claim that people like Queen Rania are attempting to distort islam, are actually following a distortion. Islam originally was not as many practice it today. It was at the end of the 12th century that in order to control the islamic people, the leaders began to change things.

[Malaikah]

^Example? ^o)

[Chuck]

And the world is a better place for that.

What? You have lost me... what that suppose to mean?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

We have already resolved that the article posted was a distortion of the original. Lets leave it that :D

[MTAFFI]

Political views aside...she is the best looking Queen I have ever seen.

I realize this may seem trivial :smile:

WOW you werent kidding!!! What a lucky king, the King of Jordan is!:bravo:

[tomtomsmom]

she is still a fasiq and she is still married to a kaffir apostate and so she is not in any position to lecture us on islam.

Abu Abdullah

Sorry but could you translate that to english cause i don't get it.

[S_87]

I hate to break it to you, but at one time Islam was more modern in every way than it is today. Actually, let me rephrase that. The way that muslims practice and interpret islam today, is centuries behind the way it was in the 12th century.
Muslims today that claim that people like Queen Rania are attempting to distort islam, are actually following a distortion. Islam originally was not as many practice it today. It was at the end of the 12th century that in order to control the islamic people, the leaders began to change things.

ummm so how was islam practised in the 12th century?
i know muslims need to go back to how islam was practised and adhere to the Quran and sunnah only and not compromise our faith which is actually being what is done today. so yes we are worse today we need to go back and become more stricter and shun what is not in the religion.
had the muslims gone back to what true islam is, we would be the most advanced people atm.
like you said people like this rania woman interprets islam very differently to what it is (from the comments she said)

[MTAFFI]

Sorry but could you translate that to english cause i don't get it.

a fasiq is someone who violates islamic law, a Kaffur or Kaffir is a person or people who are considered non-believers because they do not follow islam. and an apostate is someone who changes their religion from Islam.

However, Dawud

Why is the Queen a Fasiq? What has she done to violate islam? Also I was unaware the King of Jordan was an apostate, when did this happen? I know he attended an Islamic school prior to college, did he change while at college?

[Dawud_uk]

a fasiq is someone who violates islamic law, a Kaffur or Kaffir is a person or people who are considered non-believers because they do not follow islam. and an apostate is someone who changes their religion from Islam.

However, Dawud

Why is the Queen a Fasiq? What has she done to violate islam? Also I was unaware the King of Jordan was an apostate, when did this happen? I know he attended an Islamic school prior to college, did he change while at college?

a fasiq is an open sinner, she parades herself in front of everyone without hijab, for that alone she is an open sinner.

her husband is a man who though he has the power rules by other laws than Shariah and is therefore in principle an apostate, he has also sided with the kuffar against the muslims, another act of apostasy and he has taken the kuffar as his awliyah (protectors, friends), another act of apostasy.

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Abu Abdullah

[MTAFFI]

a fasiq is an open sinner, she parades herself in front of everyone without hijab, for that alone she is an open sinner.

her husband is a man who though he has the power rules by other laws than Shariah and is therefore in principle an apostate, he has also sided with the kuffar against the muslims, another act of apostasy and he has taken the kuffar as his awliyah (protectors, friends), another act of apostasy.

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Abu Abdullah

I think this is where people believe the veil and hijab are oppressive. If a woman, such as Queen Rania doesnt want to wear this then why does she have to? From what I understand it is a choice and is not a sin if not worn, or at least that is how it is argued when it is said to be oppressive.

As far as her husband goes, I did not realize that not ruling a country by Shariah would make such a person an apostate, does this mean Ahmadinejad is an apostate too? From what I understand Iran is not a true Islamic State, or so some have said on this forum. Also who says he sided with the Kuffar? Not all Muslims side the same way, so how do you distinguish who is siding with the Kuffar and who is just doing the right thing? And if he did what is wrong with that if the intentions of some of the Muslims are not what Islam would advocate anyways? As far as the friends and/or protectors go, I was unaware Muslims couldnt not befriend the Kuffar, if this is true arent Muslims kind of isolating themselves? It is almost as if, if you are not a Muslim then you are target to a Muslim, when it really comes down to it.

[Dawud_uk]

I think this is where people believe the veil and hijab are oppressive. If a woman, such as Queen Rania doesnt want to wear this then why does she have to? From what I understand it is a choice and is not a sin if not worn, or at least that is how it is argued when it is said to be oppressive.

As far as her husband goes, I did not realize that not ruling a country by Shariah would make such a person an apostate, does this mean Ahmadinejad is an apostate too? From what I understand Iran is not a true Islamic State, or so some have said on this forum. Also who says he sided with the Kuffar? Not all Muslims side the same way, so how do you distinguish who is siding with the Kuffar and who is just doing the right thing? And if he did what is wrong with that if the intentions of some of the Muslims are not what Islam would advocate anyways? As far as the friends and/or protectors go, I was unaware Muslims couldnt not befriend the Kuffar, if this is true arent Muslims kind of isolating themselves? It is almost as if, if you are not a Muslim then you are target to a Muslim, when it really comes down to it.

the hijab is compulsory, not voluntary and like all compulsory acts it is the duty of the state to make sure it is complied with to maintain public good.

for example, in the west you have to maintain certain very lenient standards of dress and would be arrested in went out with nothing on or at least you would be in the uk.

so the west has simular standards but draws the line differently to islam.

as regarding iran and its president, he has certainly committed kufr (acts of disbelief) and it might be that scholars have given takfir on him (declared him non muslim) but i am not aware of it.

regarding not taking the disbelievers as our awliyah, on a personaly day to day basis i discussed this verse with a christian at work today. she agreed it was correct and why?

because we both agreed that although we should be friendly towards those not of our faith we could not take the disbelievers as our close allies and friends and we differ very much on most other things.

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah

[Muezzin]

We're veering away from the subject, dudes.

Apropos, Muslims are allowed to take Non-Muslims as friends, but not as close allies or protectors.

[MTAFFI]

the hijab is compulsory, not voluntary and like all compulsory acts it is the duty of the state to make sure it is complied with to maintain public good.

So then you are, in fact, saying that it is mandatory in Islam that the woman wear a veil or Hijab even if they dont want to? This to me does seem oppressive

as regarding iran and its president, he has certainly committed kufr (acts of disbelief) and it might be that scholars have given takfir on him (declared him non muslim) but i am not aware of it.

Have the scholars declared this on the Jordanian King?

regarding not taking the disbelievers as our awliyah, on a personaly day to day basis i discussed this verse with a christian at work today. she agreed it was correct and why?

because we both agreed that although we should be friendly towards those not of our faith we could not take the disbelievers as our close allies and friends and we differ very much on most other things.

To me this is sad imsad, I do not base my friendships and alliances on religion, I base them on the person and the persons actions. All religion is based on one thing, God or a higher power, the difference is how you worship, which to me is not enough to make me not befriend someone. How can you expect to be treated equally by those not of your religion if you look only at their religion and say regardless of the type of person you are I am not your friend because you dont share my beliefs? This sort of thought process provokes violence and eventually spreads hatred, because if you are not my friend what are you? An enemy. In the same respect, do you like everyone that is Muslim because they are a proclaimed Muslim? If so what about those in Iraq who kill their Muslim brothers and sisters daily?

Anyways your opinion is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but maybe one day try and look past your religion and maybe see people as a brother or sister in humanity, regardless of how you worship we all have that in common.

[Dawud_uk]

So then you are, in fact, saying that it is mandatory in Islam that the woman wear a veil or Hijab even if they dont want to? This to me does seem oppressive



Have the scholars declared this on the Jordanian King?



To me this is sad imsad, I do not base my friendships and alliances on religion, I base them on the person and the persons actions. All religion is based on one thing, God or a higher power, the difference is how you worship, which to me is not enough to make me not befriend someone. How can you expect to be treated equally by those not of your religion if you look only at their religion and say regardless of the type of person you are I am not your friend because you dont share my beliefs? This sort of thought process provokes violence and eventually spreads hatred, because if you are not my friend what are you? An enemy. In the same respect, do you like everyone that is Muslim because they are a proclaimed Muslim? If so what about those in Iraq who kill their Muslim brothers and sisters daily?

Anyways your opinion is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but maybe one day try and look past your religion and maybe see people as a brother or sister in humanity, regardless of how you worship we all have that in common.

i certainly see people as my brothers and sisters in humanity, but that is not the same as my brothers and sisters in islam.

in a simular fashion it is obligatory on men to keep the beard, but regarding modest dress it is compulsory on both genders but what each gender finds attractive is different and hence the differences in what must be covered.

and yes takfir has been made on the king of jordon as well as other rulers in the muslim lands.

Abu Abdullah

[S_87]

So then you are, in fact, saying that it is mandatory in Islam that the woman wear a veil or Hijab even if they dont want to? This to me does seem oppressive



.

some naturists say not being able to walk around naked too is oppressive...

[MTAFFI]

i certainly see people as my brothers and sisters in humanity, but that is not the same as my brothers and sisters in islam.

in a simular fashion it is obligatory on men to keep the beard, but regarding modest dress it is compulsory on both genders but what each gender finds attractive is different and hence the differences in what must be covered.

and yes takfir has been made on the king of jordon as well as other rulers in the muslim lands.

Abu Abdullah

alrighty then

[MTAFFI]

some naturists say not being able to walk around naked too is oppressive...

i would say that is a little different

[Dawud_uk]

i would say that is a little different

to you but the principle is the same, it is where you draw the line.

[Jibril]

I think some brothers are misinterepreting what the Quran means by "friend". It does not mean it in the sense of your buddy whom you play bball with, or you coworker whom you lunch and hang out with. It means "protector", meaning muslims must not depend on Christians or Jews for their vital needs. In essence all the verse is doing is mandating self-sufficiency for the Muslim community. I think thats an admirable thing and ultimately is good for everybody not only muslims.

So yes we as Muslims CAN and SHOULD befriend non Muslims. After all how are we supposed to convey the message if we don't befriend people?

[MTAFFI]

I think some brothers are misinterepreting what the Quran means by "friend". It does not mean it in the sense of your buddy whom you play bball with, or you coworker whom you lunch and hang out with. It means "protector", meaning muslims must not depend on Christians or Jews for their vital needs. In essence all the verse is doing is mandating self-sufficiency for the Muslim community. I think thats an admirable thing and ultimately is good for everybody not only muslims.

So yes we as Muslims CAN and SHOULD befriend non Muslims. After all how are we supposed to convey the message if we don't befriend people?

well put

I still dont understand though, why a Muslim wouldnt consider coming to a Christian or Jew for vital needs.. Just because we have different religions doesnt mean a Christian or Jew wouldnt help a Muslim because of his/her religion. I would help almost anyone who came to me in need if i could

[MTAFFI]

to you but the principle is the same, it is where you draw the line.

It is like comparing apples to oranges though, both fruit but totally different

[Jibril]

well put

I still dont understand though, why a Muslim wouldnt consider coming to a Christian or Jew for vital needs.. Just because we have different religions doesnt mean a Christian or Jew wouldnt help a Muslim because of his/her religion. I would help almost anyone who came to me in need if i could

Well you have to understand the history of Islam inorder to fully grasp why. In a nutshell, the earliest Muslim community was intertwined, and one would say reliant on their pagan relatives for their security, shelter, food etc etc. As a result this reliance was leveraged to pressure Muslims to recant their faith, some eventually did. The ones who didn't were subjected to terrible persecution. Anyway, the Muslims struggled for years to gain self-sufficiency and eventually succeded. But they have never forgotten this lesson from their earlier days. I hope you understood.

[MTAFFI]

Well you have to understand the history of Islam inorder to fully grasp why. In a nutshell, the earliest Muslim community was intertwined, and one would say reliant on their pagan relatives for their security, shelter, food etc etc. As a result this reliance was leveraged to pressure Muslims to recant their faith, some eventually did. The ones who didn't were subjected to terrible persecution. Anyway, the Muslims struggled for years to gain self-sufficiency and eventually succeded. But they have never forgotten this lesson from their earlier days. I hope you understood.

I understand and respect that.

We do live in a different day though, I dont think anyone would make you recant your faith anymore for being reliant on another individual. I will not ask you to explain anymore, because I understand that, that is just a part of your faith, it is just to bad (from my standpoint) that that is how it has to be.

[Jibril]

I understand and respect that.

We do live in a different day though, I dont think anyone would make you recant your faith anymore for being reliant on another individual. I will not ask you to explain anymore, because I understand that, that is just a part of your faith, it is just to bad (from my standpoint) that that is how it has to be.

Keep in mind that this self-sufficiency is really geared toward the community not neccesarily the individual. No one is saying a muslim can't accept aid or help from a non Muslim during a time of crisis. Its a general principle regarding the community is all.

[Cognescenti]

What? You have lost me... what that suppose to mean?

I realize this may be unislamic, but as a non-muslim I am struck by her beauty. The world is better, from an aesthetic standpoint if she does not wear a veil, just as it would be a shame to listen to Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony with earplugs in.

[MTAFFI]

I realize this may be unislamic, but as a non-muslim I am struck by her beauty. The world is better, from an aesthetic standpoint if she does not wear a veil, just as it would be a shame to listen to Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony with earplugs in.

LOL :D

Her beauty should be considered a gift from God, why cover up what a wonderful thing God has created.

(I am not really into Beethoven as much as Bach or say Brooks and Dunn)

[Karimeldib]

All relationships should be under religion, it is the most important thing and the only thing that will last.
We can help people who are not muslims, visit them, be kind to them and so on, we must also be fair to them and give them their rights, but they should not be our friends (not protectors, that's another issue). This friendship even if it lasts in this world it will not in the day of judgement Allah says: (Friends on that Day will be foes, one to another; except the Righteous).
As for making takfir, this is very very dangerous, you can not just give takfir like this, you cant even just repeat this stuff like this. What proof do you/these people have for making takfir?

[Jibril]

I realize this may be unislamic, but as a non-muslim I am struck by her beauty. The world is better, from an aesthetic standpoint if she does not wear a veil, just as it would be a shame to listen to Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony with earplugs in.

Hey I think she's pretty but don't overblow it,..she's not THAT pretty.

[MTAFFI]

All relationships should be under religion, it is the most important thing and the only thing that will last.
We can help people who are not muslims, visit them, be kind to them and so on, we must also be fair to them and give them their rights, but they should not be our friends (not protectors, that's another issue). This friendship even if it lasts in this world it will not in the day of judgement Allah says: (Friends on that Day will be foes, one to another; except the Righteous).
As for making takfir, this is very very dangerous, you can not just give takfir like this, you cant even just repeat this stuff like this. What proof do you/these people have for making takfir?

So your view is that I, as a Catholic, am going to hell? I too worship Allah or God as I call him, so why would I? Do you think that God does not know that I love him, and that just because I chose a different type of worship that he will send me to hell?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

We went from veil to beauty? Stay with the topic please!!! For goodness sakes!

[KAding]

We're veering away from the subject, dudes.

Apropos, Muslims are allowed to take Non-Muslims as friends, but not as close allies or protectors.

*pokes Muezzin in the eye*

You silly Muslims :D.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

So your view is that I, as a Catholic, am going to hell? I too worship Allah or God as I call him, so why would I? Do you think that God does not know that I love him, and that just because I chose a different type of worship that he will send me to hell?

At the end of the day, God decides who enters heaven or hell.

[Cognescenti]

We went from veil to beauty? Stay with the topic please!!! For goodness sakes!

Which does bring up an interesting question. Why do you think the wearing of a veil is called for by Islam? Is it to prevent skin cancer or do you think it might have something to do with beauty?


Is there, for eg., a Quranic explanation for this...or in a hadith?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

The Qur'an tells to cover ourselves fully up to our wrists, except that which appears apparent. Most scholars would say that which appears apparent is the face. But I don't have much knowledge on that so dont take my word for it. Most women wear the veil because maybe they aren't comfortable showing their face. Some are more reserved and have more hayaa (i.e shyness) than others. And thats their choice.

[Melek<3]

:sl:

What?!:muddlehea

Hasn't she ever heard of a little something called hell?:rolleyes:

ahah :D

[Malaikah]

So your view is that I, as a Catholic, am going to hell? I too worship Allah or God as I call him, so why would I? Do you think that God does not know that I love him, and that just because I chose a different type of worship that he will send me to hell?

Firstly, isn't it catholic belief that non-Christians all go to hell?

Secondly, you worship Jesus, who you think is God, but is actually a human. Therefore, by Islam standards, you have taken a partner with God.

Islamic belief is that God hasn't given you the right to worship Him how you wish, He wants you to worship Him in the way He ordered you to. By rejecting Islam you reject His commands.

[SilentObserver]

ummm so how was islam practised in the 12th century?
i know muslims need to go back to how islam was practised and adhere to the Quran and sunnah only and not compromise our faith which is actually being what is done today. so yes we are worse today we need to go back and become more stricter and shun what is not in the religion.
had the muslims gone back to what true islam is, we would be the most advanced people atm.
like you said people like this rania woman interprets islam very differently to what it is (from the comments she said)

This is where you and millions of others are going wrong. 12th century (I mention 12th century because that was the turning point) islam was not strict and oppressive the way it is going today. It would not be the first civilization to lose what they had and become less advanced.

[Malaikah]

islam was not strict and oppressive the way it is going today.

What? Strict and oppressive? Are you referring to the law aspects? Islam isn't even being implemented today!

I don't know what is so important about the 12th century, but for the record, we base Islam on how the prophet taught it, not based on something that happened in the 12th century.

[SilentObserver]

What? Strict and oppressive? Are you referring to the law aspects? Islam isn't even being implemented today!

I don't know what is so important about the 12th century, but for the record, we base Islam on how the prophet taught it, not based on something that happened in the 12th century.

Well if you don't know then it is best to educate yourself and avoid commenting on things that you are ignorant of.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Your telling us to learn about our own history? The Islam our Prophet(saw) and his companions (ra) followed is the real Islam. That's the only Islam that should be followed.

[SilentObserver]

What? Strict and oppressive? Are you referring to the law aspects? Islam isn't even being implemented today!

I don't know what is so important about the 12th century, but for the record, we base Islam on how the prophet taught it, not based on something that happened in the 12th century.

Up to the 12th century they did base it on the teachings. Today it is all wrong. It was distorted after the 12th century for political reasons.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^So why u calling her ignorant:? Thats what she said...

[SilentObserver]

Your telling us to learn about our own history? The Islam our Prophet(saw) and his companions (ra) followed is the real Islam. That's the only Islam that should be followed.

Exactly. I agree 100%.


As I said earlier;

Up to the 12th century they did base it on the teachings. Today it is all wrong. It was distorted after the 12th century for political reasons.

[SilentObserver]

^^So why u calling her ignorant:? Thats what she said...

She said she was ignorant of what occured around the 12th century.

[Malaikah]

I don't need to know what happened in the 12th century to know that the current state of the Muslims is not what it is meant to be and that we have deviated from the teaching of Islam to a dangerous extent.

[SilentObserver]

I don't need to know what happened in the 12th century to know that the current state of the Muslims is not what it is meant to be and that we have deviated from the teaching of Islam to a dangerous extent.

True, but it wouldn't hurt to educate yourself. If you knew what happened and what changes occured and why, you would have a better understanding. Education is never a bad thing.

[Malaikah]

I agree.

[MTAFFI]

Firstly, isn't it catholic belief that non-Christians all go to hell?

The bible tells me not to judge and therefore, no I do not believe those who are non-Christian will go to hell, I believe those that do not worship God will go to hell

Secondly, you worship Jesus, who you think is God, but is actually a human. Therefore, by Islam standards, you have taken a partner with God.

For some reason Muslims always want to say this, and I am not sure if this is something you have learned incorrectly or just overheard in another thread but I do not worship Jesus, I respect Jesus to a great extent being Gods only son. I worship God and only God, I just understand that God can show himself to us in many ways (the holy trinity).

Islamic belief is that God hasn't given you the right to worship Him how you wish, He wants you to worship Him in the way He ordered you to. By rejecting Islam you reject His commands.

Who says Islam is the right belief or that is the way God wishes you to worship? Only the Quran, the bible doesnt say that, do you not agree the bible also is the word of God? If you were brought up a devout Christian and decided to take that as the only word of God without question and without refuting it, is that your fault, that you trust in what you have learned and know?

To me God is God, no matter what you call him, and as long as you serve him in this life you will be rewarded in the next, no matter what your religion may be.

[Muezzin]

Guys, you do know that if you stray from the beaten path on my watch, I do irritating things like deleting posts, right?

[England]

Guys, you do know that if you stray from the beaten path on my watch, I do irritating things like deleting posts, right?

:rollseyes

[Muezzin]

:rollseyes

You don't like me do you?

[England]

You don't like me do you?

:eek: lol:giggling: I was just giving everyone an example

[zaki.aumeerudy]

Maybe we should invite Queen Rania in this forum...:D .. as she loves to talk about Muslims and Islam..

there are more important issues .it will be a waste of time

[Bittersteel]

one reason I like being a Republican.I hate monarchs.

[*Islam_4_life*]

true

[Ninth_Scribe]

what the hell is a Moderate muslim?

I just hate this word that the west made up.

Love that name (Idris)! Moderates are a funny new being. They have good points and bad ones.

When the Jews were exiled to Babylon, they could not worship in the manner they were accustomed to. That had become a lost tradition to them. They did not have their precious Temple and therefore, could not offer sacrifice. Did that change them? Certainly not. They learned that the way they love God is not limited to a set and certain ritual. In the end, regardless of places and times, they were ultimately responsible for whether or not they were Jewish. That was, in my humble opinion, the very reason for the exile. To show them that nothing could change who they believed themselves to be. It was just a lesson in Faith.

Muslims have done this too. They've become adventurous and have embraced the world and it's people to spread the word of Islam. They do not have the comfort of Mecca, except what they keep in their own hearts.

You see, the word of God is spread in this way. One must leave the safety of the nest and travel to the lands of sin if they ever expect to heal them of sin. People like Osama bin Laden don't understand that equation. They don't understand that it takes a great leap of faith to spread Islam to the darker places of the world.

So I hear statements about how nice it would be to have an Islamic Caliphate state. It would be nice, only because this is the will of a number of the people, and the number is great enough that they should have their own land. But I have seen what happens when people are given their own land. They become somewhat addicted to the land and then close themselves off from the rest of the world.

When the Jews came back from Babylon, the first thing they did was raise the walls and cut themselves off from the people - they did this even after learning that the land of Babylon couldn't change who they were! Today they've done it again! But in the United States, there are Jews and Christians and Muslims. What defines them as such is not the land in which they live, but by the lives they lead. For some, that's good enough. They can walk through sin-ridden neighborhoods, knowing they are there because they must face sin if they ever expect to defeat it.

I would hardly call these people 'moderates' even though they do offer a give-and-take principle. Where the hijab is concerned, this is a tradition. In Iraq, if a woman doesn't wear one, she could be discovered and raped, so the Mujahideen enforce it there. In other lands, it is not so dangerous. But how do you rule on this issue? It is a traditional obligation that should be obeyed out of respect for the tradition. Nothing more, nothing less. In Iraq, it has become a must-do. But in reality, it should have always been a want-to.

And that, I feel, is the only difference between these two groups. If one converts to Islam because another holds a knife to his throat, he will recite the words in voice only and the conversion is fake. There is no love of God there. That's why the sword is useless. You must first win the heart of the people... then, by their own free will, they will choose to obey God.

The elders simply have no patience for the youth of this world. There is no way to prevent young ones from making the same mistakes of their elder generations (who were once equally as guilty). So they try stern words, but once again, the love of God cannot be forced. God does not rape his people. These tributes (hijab, sacrifices, prayers, etc.) are acts of love for God. They were meant to be sincere, and if someone performs these token acts without sincerity, they will not be pleasing to God because the act itself is not a true offering.

What created Hell... was Heart-ache.... not Hatred.

Ninth Scribe