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SilentObserver
02-14-2007, 07:13 AM
Interesting press release. Should be cause for conversation.


PRESS RELEASE/FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Secularists of Islamic Societies Gather for Unprecedented Summit

Leading Dissidents to Launch Movement for Reason, Pluralism, and Freedom of Conscience

New York, N.Y.(January 26, 2007)— From Pope Benedict XVI to the Harvard historian Bernard Lewis, people are asking, What went wrong? How did Middle Eastern cultures transform from the openness and intellectual ferment of the medieval period to the closed theocrat societies of today? Where are the secular voices of the Muslim world? Until now, they have been largely stifled and silenced. Now, bold critics of orthodoxy are calling for sweeping reforms from inside Muslim societies. With the intent of catalyzing a global movement for reason, humanist values, and freedom of conscience, delegates from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Bangladesh will assemble March 4-5 in St. Petersburg, Florida for an unprecedented Secular Islam Summit.

According the chair of the meeting, the rationalist critic of Islam and acclaimed author Ibn Warraq, “What we need now is an Age of Enlightenment in the Islamic world, of the Islamic mind-set or worldview. Without critical examination of Islam, it will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified, totalitarian and intolerant. It will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality; originality and truth.”

Said one summit delegate, Irshad Manji, author of The Trouble with Islam Today, “This summit is proof positive that reform-minded Muslims are creating a movement. We no longer exist in isolation. Those who hate our message of free thought in Islam will keep trying to pick us off individually, but collectively we're not going anywhere except forward.”

The historic Summit, to be held at the Hilton St. Petersburg, will set in motion the generation of new practical strategies from the world’s leading thinkers and activists in an ongoing cross-cultural forum. At issue will be secularist interpretations of Islam, the importance of expanding Koranic criticism, the state of freedom of expression in Muslim societies, educational reform and the urgent need for a paradigm shift in Islamic philosophy. Speakers include Mona Abousenna, Magdi Allam, Shaker al-Nabulsi, Nonie Darwish, Afshin Ellian, Fatemolla, Tawfik Hamid, Shahriar Kabir, Nibras Kazimi, Irshad Manji, Walid Phares, Amir Taheri, Mourad Wahba, Ibn Warraq, and others.

To promote emerging solutions, the delegates will craft a statement of values and principles expressing the call for a new Enlightenment in Islamic culture. The statement will be released in English, Arabic, Farsi and Bengali to the world media at a press conference at 2 p.m. Monday, March 5, 2007 at the Summit, after which participants will take questions.

“The Secular Islam Summit hopes to encourage a new global movement for reason, science, and secular values within Islamic societies,” said Summit organizer Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi, an Iranian-American activist.

The Summit is sponsored by the Center for Inquiry-Transnational, a secularist think tank.


http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/a...lam_summit.htm
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Malaikah
02-15-2007, 04:36 AM
Their motive seems to be to secular Islam. That can easily become an act of apostasy. hmmm.

Ibn Warraq? Isn't he already an apostate? Unless I am mistaken.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-15-2007, 04:39 AM
Any motive for change in Islam will not be Islam. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
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Skillganon
02-15-2007, 04:43 AM
lol. Kaafirs and hyprocrite's (this acts can easily take them out of fold of Islam if it has not already) are making call for reform in Islam?

:lol: This gives us a right laugh.
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Goku
02-15-2007, 04:44 AM
Ibn Warraq is an apostate, or so he claims.
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SilentObserver
02-15-2007, 04:44 AM
Islam has already been changed. Many of these people would like it to go back to what it was centuries ago.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-15-2007, 04:46 AM
Islam has not changed, people have changed and have twisted the reality of Islam for their own needs. As much as they would like to change it "for themselves" Islam itself won't be changed. If you change a religion, its no longer right.
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SilentObserver
02-15-2007, 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Islam has not changed, people have changed and have twisted the reality of Islam for their own needs. As much as they would like to change it "for themselves" Islam itself won't be changed. If you change a religion, its no longer right.
I agree. But the vaste majority today do not have an understanding of what islam was, and is. I'm not a muslim, but I understand the early message. And quite frankly, I see more that don't get it than do. The majority has got to start listening to the minority that is trying to get you to listen. Instead they are called enemies of islam, when in fact they are truly living by the original message.
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Malaikah
02-15-2007, 04:58 AM
Which minority are you talking about?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-15-2007, 04:58 AM
Which people are you referring to? Just generally I suppose?
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Skillganon
02-15-2007, 05:04 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I agree. But the vaste majority today do not have an understanding of what islam was, and is. I'm not a muslim, but I understand the early message. And quite frankly, I see more that don't get it than do. The majority has got to start listening to the minority that is trying to get you to listen. Instead they are called enemies of islam, when in fact they are truly living by the original message.
I agree, we do listen to the minority and that is the scholars of Islam.

Not kaffir, hyprocrites (that may have already or very close to being out of fold of Islam).
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SilentObserver
02-15-2007, 05:11 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
I agree, we do listen to the minority and that is the scholars of Islam.

Not kaffir, hyprocrites (that may have already or very close to being out of fold of Islam).
It is people like this that stifle the free thinking of others. People live in fear and are afraid to truly explore their religion and what it means to them. They are afraid of questioning anything and being labelled, ostracised, or harassed. You need to take back your religion from this kind of person that would make you afraid to speak or think.
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Skillganon
02-15-2007, 05:13 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
It is people like this that stifle the free thinking of others. People live in fear and are afraid to truly explore their religion and what it means to them. They are afraid of questioning anything and being labelled, ostracised, or harassed. You need to take back your religion from this kind of person that would make you afraid to speak or think.
I am taking back my religion from them. I am learning from them about Islam.
This is the conclusion we have arrived with our free thinking mind.

p.s. SilentObserver Muslims on this forum are not stupid.

Inshallah they are not.
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SilentObserver
02-15-2007, 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
I am taking back my religion from them. I am learning from them about Islam.
I am not quite understanding what you are saying here, could you rephrase it please?



Originally Posted by Skillganon
p.s. SilentObserver Muslims on this forum are not stupid.
Well to be fair, muslims on this forum have the typical intelligence range that you would find in any group of this size, from 'not so sharp' to 'quite brilliant'.
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Skillganon
02-15-2007, 05:35 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I am not quite understanding what you are saying here, could you rephrase it please?
I am sure you understood me first time, unless free thought had addled one's brain, but incase if you just simply not heard me rigth for some wierd reason, I will rephrase it again.

"I am taking the knowledge of Islam from those who posess it."

Well to be fair, muslims on this forum have the typical intelligence range that you would find in any group of this size, from 'not so sharp' to 'quite brilliant'.
I hope you are not insulting the intelligence of my muslim brothers and sisters.

Well let's say we got muslim who are young of age too quite old of age. Maybe it is there that lies your assessment.

I personally find them to be quite intelligent.

(I am off to get my rest now.)
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SilentObserver
02-15-2007, 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
"I am taking the knowledge of Islam from those who posess it."
How do you know who possesses the truth when there are conflicting statements made, both backed by the Quran?



Originally Posted by Skillganon
I hope you are not insulting the intelligence of my muslim brothers and sisters.
I am saying it is quite an average group, with a typical range of mental capacity. What was hard to understand about that?


Originally Posted by Skillganon
Well let's say we got muslim who are young of age too quite old of age. Maybe it is there that lies your assessment.
I took into account the wide range of ages that frequent the forum.


Originally Posted by Skillganon
I personally find them to be quite intelligent.
Some are brilliant in fact. Some are quite intelligent, while some are average, and there are some that are not so bright. All being said, quite an average group.
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north_malaysian
02-15-2007, 07:31 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
delegates from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Bangladesh will assemble March 4-5 in St. Petersburg, Florida for an unprecedented Secular Islam Summit.
I wonder why there are no representatives from Malaysia? ie. Marina Mahathir, Nori Abdullah, Kassim Ahmad, Astora Jabat, Zainah Anwar...

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Speakers include Mona Abousenna, Magdi Allam, Shaker al-Nabulsi, Nonie Darwish, Afshin Ellian, Fatemolla, Tawfik Hamid, Shahriar Kabir, Nibras Kazimi, Irshad Manji, Walid Phares, Amir Taheri, Mourad Wahba, Ibn Warraq, and others.
* Ibn Warraq - he wrote books like "Why I am Not a Muslim", "Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out"...

* Nonie Darwish - ex-Muslim converted to Evangelical Christianity.

* Afshin Ellian - wikipedia says he's a former Muslim.

* Dr. Walid Phares - a Maronite Catholic Lebanese

At least 3 of the speakers are ex-Muslims, and one is a born-Christian ... what a summit.... Islam-bashing everyone?
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SilentObserver
02-15-2007, 07:38 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I wonder why there are no representatives from Malaysia? ie. Marina Mahathir, Nori Abdullah, Kassim Ahmad, Astora Jabat, Zainah Anwar...
I imagine there is, they would not list the country of every delegate.
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
At least 3 of the speakers are ex-Muslims, and one is a born-Christian ... what a summit.... Islam-bashing everyone?
There are more muslims than anyone else to attend this summit. It is not an islam bashing summit. People from all over the world have been invited, it was an open invitation. It would not be wise to judge the summit from the people that have decided to attend.
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Muslim Knight
02-15-2007, 09:11 AM
Al-kufru millatun wahidah.

The unbelievers constitute a single ummah. Just whenever they feel that Islam needs a little bit more bashing, the kaffirs will band together for this purpose.
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siFilam
02-15-2007, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I agree. But the vaste majority today do not have an understanding of what islam was, and is. I'm not a muslim, but I understand the early message. And quite frankly, I see more that don't get it than do.
I hope you understand the fact that we are getting closer to the Day of Judgment everyday. One of the sign of the Day of Judgment is that knowledge will decrease amongst the people. This knowledge reffers to knowledge of religion not mundane matters. That's why the vast majority of Muslims don't have the right understanding of Islam and they don't practice it as they should. (May Allah, The Most Exalted, save us from becoming like this). The guided scholars of Islam, may Allah,The Most Exalted have Mercy on them, are becoming the minorities. When I say scholars I don't mean those hypocrites in the summit and others similar to them. And I am a firm believer that a non-Muslim cannot be called a scholar of Islam.
I doubt that you have the right understand of the early message.

-SI-
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Muezzin
02-15-2007, 10:27 AM
Has anyone actually heard/read what any of these speakers have said? I personally don't know enough about them to make a judgement either way.

Also, not to put words into SilentObserver's mouth, but what I think he is getting at is that certain people are paying so much attention to the little details that they lose the spirit of what Islam is all about - people can't see the wood for the trees sort of thing.
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Malaikah
02-15-2007, 10:43 AM
^Maybe this will explain a little:

According the chair of the meeting, the rationalist critic of Islam and acclaimed author Ibn Warraq
The chair of the meeting (which I am assuming is something like the organiser?) is an apostate who has authored many books about why Islam sucks, about why people have left Islam etc.

Isn't that proof enough that something shifty is going on here? And just look at the title, Secular Islam summit, they are just asking for trouble.
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Muezzin
02-15-2007, 10:46 AM
Maybe, but we cannot shy away from criticism. We can rebut it, but the only way to do that is to face it. Let them have their say. If what they say is nonsense, they will look like fools. If some of what they say is true, we can learn.
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Skywalker
02-15-2007, 09:38 PM
:sl:

Interesting thread...here are my 2 cents. I support free thinking in Islam and in fact encourage it. I think that in this day in age, we seriously need free-thinking people to come up with new and inspirational ways of bringing Islam into the 21st century and improving the lives of humans all around the world.

However, there are basic rules you have to stick to, which are of course, the Qur'an and Sunnah. Forsaking those rules can no longer be called Islam.

As Muezzin said, we haven't heard what these people at the summit are talking about to judge them on whether they're right or wrong, but if you take what's written at face value, it doesn't seem very encouraging at all. It's called the Secular Islamic Summit for one...which is a bit contradictory in itself. And of course the summit being chaired by Ibn Warraq, the self-proclaimed apostate and in my opinion an enemy of Allah, doesn't give them much in terms of credibility to say the least. Not to mention the other people that you guys pointed out. For a group of people like this to determine the course of Islam, I would not be enthusiastic about in the slightest, but I'm still willing to at least listen to what they have to say.

Islam can be reformed, but not by people who don't know anything about it. The Qur'an and Sunnah can be re-interpreted in a modern context among educated and open-minded individuals. Finding those kinds of individuals is tricky, but they're there. I believe that the people at this summit ARE open-minded, but the question is how knowledgable they are, and how devoted to the preservation of their religion and Allah's message they are.

My prediction...if this group goes in the direction that I fear it will, it will cause yet another division in Islam, which is the last thing we need 3authubillah.

Does anyone have any links to details about what they'll be talking about? Or if there's a webpage for this summit?

:w:
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by siFilam
I doubt that you have the right understand of the early message.

-SI-
You are entitled to your opinion, and to doubt. You are wrong, but entitled.
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Skillganon
02-17-2007, 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
How do you know who possesses the truth when there are conflicting statements made, both backed by the Quran?
Their can't be conflicting statement backed from the Quran.
Either one statement is false or both are false. Not the Quran.
We understand Islam by the way the salaf understood it.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I am saying it is quite an average group, with a typical range of mental capacity. What was hard to understand about that?
If that make's you feel intelligent, go ahead. I don't see the point of making such statement in the first place.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I took into account the wide range of ages that frequent the forum.
Well, I am sure you also took into account people from different countries. Their ability to articulate in english might not be reflective of the Intelligence
Although I never go by that criteria generally it can be misleading sometimes.
It's like a person who hardly articulates in english and prefers to post in simple manner. The person may be very intelligent. It just that we don't know.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Some are brilliant in fact. Some are quite intelligent, while some are average, and there are some that are not so bright. All being said, quite an average group.
Well, I guess this people exist in all social sphere, but intelligence is a hard thing to measure.

Anyway, it is clear this is a summit of secular's and the type of people are their is open to see. So their is no good from them.

Secondly Islam does not need reform, who ever say's that have no right over Allah(swt) Word and the Messengers(pbuh). Muslim suppose to understand the way the salaf understood it.

Those who need reform are those who are not on the path and have deviated from it, by calling them back to it. Not reforming Islam.

The brothers & sisters who grasp this are open minded and Educated Individuals.
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Bittersteel
02-17-2007, 04:43 AM
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/blewis.htm
^that's Bernard Lewis' writing.I don't think Warraq comes near him.
If some of what they say is true, we can learn.
we know what's wrong with us,we don't need to learn.we just have the wrong people in the wrong places and it will take time to change.

Well to be fair, muslims on this forum have the typical intelligence range that you would find in any group of this size, from 'not so sharp' to 'quite brilliant'.
I have such intelligence range everywhere.It exists everywhere.
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north_malaysian
02-17-2007, 04:52 AM
I dont know about other secular/liberal Muslims... but those in Malaysia they interprete Islam by using translations of Al Quran (English or Malay) .. not from Arabic itself.... (as they are not Arabic speakers... I doubt they know Arabic at all)...

Some even rejected hadiths (ie. Kassim Ahmad, leader of the banned "Jemaah Al Quran Malaysia" (Malaysian Al Quran Congregation)... and they read "Bacaan" (100% Malay Language Koran - which dont have Koranic wordings at all)imsad
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Skillganon
02-17-2007, 04:58 AM
I am not suprised bro
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 07:31 AM
How do you know who possesses the truth when there are conflicting statements made, both backed by the Quran?
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Their can't be conflicting statement backed from the Quran.
Either one statement is false or both are false. Not the Quran.
We understand Islam by the way the salaf understood it.
Come on, stop being lazy and use your imagination. Is it really necessary for me to paint the entire picture for you each time?
There are many times that reputable muslim scholars will have made conflicting statements, and they will each back their position with verses from the Quran. I understand that the Quran says what it says, and it does not change. It is within the interpretation by the scholar that the discrepancy occurs. So, the fact that it occurs is not up for dispute, and it is not always easy to know which is the correct interpretation, the question has not been answered. Perhaps someone less inclined to give the standard boilerplate lazy answer would like to answer. Really you know, this defensive dialogue that some here take is impeding real discussion.

I am saying it is quite an average group, with a typical range of mental capacity. What was hard to understand about that?
Originally Posted by Skillganon

If that make's you feel intelligent, go ahead. I don't see the point of making such statement in the first place.
Oh how short the memory of some around here. Since you have forgotten, let me remind you that the point of making such statement was only a response to your statement about intelligence. It is here;
Originally Posted by Skillganon
p.s. SilentObserver Muslims on this forum are not stupid.
and here;
Originally Posted by Skillganon
I hope you are not insulting the intelligence of my muslim brothers and sisters.
Intelligence has nothing to do with the conversation. For some unknown reason you informed me that muslims on the forum are not stupid. I responded. That was the point of making such statement.


Originally Posted by Skillganon

If that make's you feel intelligent, go ahead.
It doesn't make me feel anything. It was simply a response to an odd statement.

Originally Posted by Skillganon


Well, I am sure you also took into account people from different countries. Their ability to articulate in english might not be reflective of the Intelligence
Although I never go by that criteria generally it can be misleading sometimes.
It's like a person who hardly articulates in english and prefers to post in simple manner. The person may be very intelligent. It just that we don't know.

Well, I guess this people exist in all social sphere, but intelligence is a hard thing to measure.

Look, there doesn't need to be an indepth analysis of my thought processes that lead me to conclude that the people on this forum are just like everyone else in the world. Some very smart, some not.
If you want to believe that each and every one is a genius, be my guest. If you are the measuring stick, I can see wh......
Anyway, this is way off topic, I only responded to your comments. I suggest we drop it.



Back to the topic.

It astounds me that someone like yourself that claims to be from the religion of islam, would be so abrupt and critical in dealings with others( I don't mean me - I give and take what I deserve), and so judgemental. It is true ignorance of the religion you defend. These things are exactly what I spoke of earlier when I said islam was not like this in the past. It is common among muslims today. Some get what islam is, many do not.

Among some of the most beautiful, kind-spirited people I have met, have been muslims. These muslims gave me the impression that this was the behaviour of true muslims, not the confrontational muslims that I had been observing elsewhere.

So I decided to see if I could find some truth. And I have. You are wrong. This confrontational, paranoid, and judgemental way does not represent true islam. The good muslims I have met, they do. The good muslims I have known, are not close-minded, they are open to all discussion, and do it peacefully. They would attend this seminar without hesitation. They might not agree with anything said, but they are not bound by ignorance and fear of what might be said. They are free.

They are secure enough in their knowledge that they do not need to criticize everyone else that might think differently. They are not judgemental, and do not bully others with their judgemental comments.

Fear and ignorance of your religion are holding you back.
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 08:17 AM
Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
[url]we know what's wrong with us,we don't need to learn.
This always dangerous thinking for anybody. We should always be ready to learn. Never think we already know everything we need to know. When we start thinking like this we are in serious trouble.
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Skywalker
02-17-2007, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
They are secure enough in their knowledge that they do not need to criticize everyone else that might think differently. They are not judgemental, and do not bully others with their judgemental comments.
That's the problem. Most Muslims aren't secure enough in their knowledge of Islam, and they know that others around them are not as well, so they try to protect themselves and others from going astray by shielding them from information that could be confusing and contradictory to what they know. Not many people are as knowledgable about Islam and intelligent enough to be as secure as you're suggestng. Plus, why do you think that people are being judgemental? In this thread we looked at the people's history to have a good idea of how they think, such as Ibn Warraq and the others who just happen to be apostates. We're not at all encouraged that people like this are hosting such a summit, or any summit that has the word Islam in it, but as I said before, I for one am ready to at least hear what they have to say.
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
That's the problem. Most Muslims aren't secure enough in their knowledge of Islam, and they know that others around them are not as well, so they try to protect themselves and others from going astray by shielding them from information that could be confusing and contradictory to what they know. Not many people are as knowledgable about Islam and intelligent enough to be as secure as you're suggestng. Plus, why do you think that people are being judgemental? In this thread we looked at the people's history to have a good idea of how they think, such as Ibn Warraq and the others who just happen to be apostates. We're not at all encouraged that people like this are hosting such a summit, or any summit that has the word Islam in it, but as I said before, I for one am ready to at least hear what they have to say.
Most of these people have been labelled by other muslims as apostates (except one who labelled himself out of frustration). They are still practicing muslims, yet because some judgemental shmuck decides that he doesn't like what the guy says, he's an apostate? Only God has the right to say who is right and who is not. These people are more in God's favor than someone that claims to be but only speaks judgement and strife.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 09:40 AM
^That actually is not true. There are many acts that make people an apostate. Also, I think most people said that the people were committing acts of apostasy, not necessary that they are apostates.

Rejecting the completeness of the Quran, saying that God made a mistake, rejecting something that is 100% authentic, such as statement in the Quran, as being false, are all acts of apostasy.

It isn't as simple as someone saying that they believe, because some acts, such as the ones I mentioned above, show that the person, in reality, does not believe.
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 09:48 AM
That actually is true, please don't speak without knowledge.
Many of the people that plan to attend this summit are practicing muslims that have been targeted by closed-minded bigots that are afraid that being nice might actually be a requirement from God.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 10:04 AM
So? Where did I say attending the summit itself was an act of apostasy? The point was that many of the main speakers have made statements of apostasy and still stick by their views.
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
So? Where did I say attending the summit itself was an act of apostasy? The point was that many of the main speakers have made statements of apostasy and still stick by their views.
What proof do you have of many of the main speakers commiting acts of apostacy?
Why do you slander these people?
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 10:20 AM
One of the speakers:

Manji thinks Muslims should take tolerant parts of the Koran and ignore the hellfire.
She, not unlike the fundamentalists, picks and chooses the bits that suit her.
“Literalists” who consider the Koran the “perfect manifesto of God” have taken over the mainstream
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article544800.ece

Those are all statements of apostasy. She is known to be very public with her statements.

So sad.
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
One of the speakers:

Those are all statements of apostasy. She is known to be very public with her statements.

So sad.
So what of the rest? You claim that many of the speakers are apostates, so what about the rest?


As for your quotes;

Manji thinks Muslims should take tolerant parts of the Koran and ignore the hellfire.
She didn't actually make this statement, even if she did, so what? Too much tolerance for you?


She, not unlike the fundamentalists, picks and chooses the bits that suit her.
Again, not her statement, the opinion of the reporter. This is exactly what you and most other muslims do, by the way.


“Literalists” who consider the Koran the “perfect manifesto of God” have taken over the mainstream,
in other words, if someone says that a verse means to go kill an apostate, then someone needs to go kill them a.s.a.p. Do you defend this thinking?

What is so sad, is the blatent intolerance and close-minded indifference to truth, and the rooting out of those that seek only to oppress others with their cruel judgements. Evil thinking.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 10:46 AM
About the others:

Originally Posted by north_malaysian
* Ibn Warraq - he wrote books like "Why I am Not a Muslim", "Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out"...

* Nonie Darwish - ex-Muslim converted to Evangelical Christianity.

* Afshin Ellian - wikipedia says he's a former Muslim.

* Dr. Walid Phares - a Maronite Catholic Lebanese

At least 3 of the speakers are ex-Muslims, and one is a born-Christian ... what a summit.... Islam-bashing everyone?
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Again, not her statement, the opinion of the reporter. This is exactly what you and most other muslims do, by the way.
Do not tell me what I do and what I do not do. It is very clear from everything she stands for that not only does she pick and choose, she denies that they are even requirements even though the evidence is clear.

I know that I am not a perfect Muslim, but at least I don't go around saying that the sins I do are not sins at all. The denial is an act of apostaxy, depending on how clear-cut the evidence is.
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
About the others:
LOL! Hey, north_malaysian is a good guy, but hardly a source. Anyway, forget it, it is unlikely that you will benefit from the truth anyway.
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Skywalker
02-17-2007, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
LOL! Hey, north_malaysian is a good guy, but hardly a source.
Ibn Warraq

Nonie Darwish

Afshin Ellian

Walid Phares

There, do you like those sources better?

What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge against Islam. This should make for a *very* interesting summit :playing:
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
Ibn Warraq

Nonie Darwish

Afshin Ellian

Walid Phares

There, do you like those sources better?

What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge against Islam. This should make for a *very* interesting summit :playing:
Yes, much better thanks.

What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge not against Islam, but against hatred, intolerance, and violence. Please point out where each of them says that they are against islam.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 11:33 AM
The problem that I see, is that some muslims accuse nonmuslims of associating violence and intolerance with islam. But it is these same people that are actually doing it themselves. When someone speaks out against violent people hijacking islam to commit their crimes, the accusers say they are attacking islam. They associate an attack on violence and intolerance, as an attack on islam. Who is it that makes assumptions about islam?
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Skywalker
02-17-2007, 11:52 AM
You could've made those two posts as one but oh well...

Continuing with our little "flip the words around" game:

What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge against hatred, intolerance, and violence which they associate with Islam through their lack of knowledge and understanding as well as childhood experiences for some.

The fact that 3 out of 4 of those people are self-proclaimed apostates that are trying to change Islam into what they think it should be is quite disturbing to me. They wouldn't have become apostates if they had their own ideas about what Islam should be and wanted to live by them. They could've practiced what they believed and stayed Muslims. Instead they became apostates because they reject Islam as a religion. How does that make them qualified for discussing the future of Islam and reform within it?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-17-2007, 03:39 PM
I don't see what you dont understand. If you claim to be a Muslim and then say Islam needs changing and there is something wrong with the Qur'an, or something about Islam should be rejected. <---That is apostacy, whether or not they claim so. As far as I know, the way Manji talks, she seems like a hypocrite to me. Dont think people like that dont exist, cuz they do.
But Allah Knows Best.
Reply

Skillganon
02-17-2007, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Back to the topic.
It astounds me that someone like yourself that claims to be from the religion of islam, would be so abrupt and critical in dealings with others( I don't mean me - I give and take what I deserve), and so judgemental.
Being critical and using your faculty to Judge what people are calling from or what they are calling too is part of any sane muslim.
It is stupid to go to a christian preist to learn about Islam

Secularism is a big no! no! to put it in obvious term and and I am sure muslims have expressed that quite clearly..

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
It is true ignorance of the religion you defend.
Are you suggesting people here are ignorant? Or that I am trying to defend ignorance?
Ignorance cannot be defended mate. It has to be eradicated via acquiring knowledge from true Scholars of Islam.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
These things are exactly what I spoke of earlier when I said islam was not like this in the past. It is common among muslims today. Some get what islam is, many do not.
I presume you do?

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Among some of the most beautiful, kind-spirited people I have met, have been muslims. These muslims gave me the impression that this was the behaviour of true muslims, not the confrontational muslims that I had been observing elsewhere.
Same here.

So I decided to see if I could find some truth. And I have. You are wrong. This confrontational, paranoid, and judgemental way does not represent true islam. The good muslims I have met, they do. The good muslims I have known, are not close-minded, they are open to all discussion, and do it peacefully. They would attend this seminar without hesitation. They might not agree with anything said, but they are not bound by ignorance and fear of what might be said. They are free.
The confrontational, paranoid, and Judgmental are those few who have been mentioned in the secular summit.

Not really, those secular's have alway's an oppurtunity to come to back to Islam. They have the opportunity sit down and be open minded & non-Judgmental & be given a chance to return to Islam, especially if the apostated by their own admission. I leave that to the scholars.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
They are secure enough in their knowledge that they do not need to criticize everyone else that might think differently. They are not judgemental, and do not bully others with their judgemental comments.
Well the thing is those secular are well enough in critising other's.
It is correct for muslim to criticise what others are calling for or even suggesting a possibility of it in the near furture, especially what they call for is contrary to Islam.

I don't understand where you get the idea that anyone is bullying anyone.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Fear and ignorance of your religion are holding you back.
Now that is being silly.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
You could've made those two posts as one but oh well...

Continuing with our little "flip the words around" game:

What struck me as an interesting pattern while looking at these articles is that each of the above-mentioned people has some kind of grudge against hatred, intolerance, and violence which they associate with Islam through their lack of knowledge and understanding as well as childhood experiences for some.

The fact that 3 out of 4 of those people are self-proclaimed apostates that are trying to change Islam into what they think it should be is quite disturbing to me. They wouldn't have become apostates if they had their own ideas about what Islam should be and wanted to live by them. They could've practiced what they believed and stayed Muslims. Instead they became apostates because they reject Islam as a religion. How does that make them qualified for discussing the future of Islam and reform within it?
Not all of them reject islam. Only the ideas of some muslims.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
I don't see what you dont understand. If you claim to be a Muslim and then say Islam needs changing and there is something wrong with the Qur'an, or something about Islam should be rejected. <---That is apostacy, whether or not they claim so. As far as I know, the way Manji talks, she seems like a hypocrite to me. Dont think people like that dont exist, cuz they do.
But Allah Knows Best.
I actually don't see what you don't understand about what I am saying. The veiw of many people that will attend this summit is that there is nothing wrong with islam or the Quran. What is wrong is the way that many muslims interpret and follow islam. What they want to change is this incorrect following.
Dont think people like that dont exist, cuz they do.
I agree, and they usually call others apostates while behaving contradictory to islam themselves.
Reply

SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Being critical and using your faculty to Judge what people are calling from or what they are calling too is part of any sane muslim.
It is not your duty or even your right to pass judgement on others. That presumably, is God's task.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
Are you suggesting people here are ignorant?
Some are, yes. Some (Woodrow, Steve are good examples) are not.


Originally Posted by Skillganon
Or that I am trying to defend ignorance?
Yes.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
I presume you do?
Yes, actually. The original, unblemished ideas are obvious if a person takes the time to learn with an open mind. It is not for me, but I appreciate some of the message. I don't particularly have a liking for what many muslims today think it is about.

Originally Posted by Skillganon

The confrontational, paranoid, and Judgmental are those few who have been mentioned in the secular summit.
Perhaps they have become the other end of the spectrum, but there are many people that will attend. The real confrontational, paranoid, and judgmental people that I mentioned are those that discourage others with intolerant remarks, this is hardly allowing others the opportunity to explore their religion. It is controlling through harassment and intimidation.

Originally Posted by Skillganon

especially what they call for is contrary to Islam.
Actually, what many call for is not contrary to islam. What they call for is that people stop behaving in a way that is contrary to islam. To return to what it was pre-12th century.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-17-2007, 11:53 PM
If your Muslim, why in the world would u say "Islam" needs to be changed?
Would a sane Christian, Jews, Bhuddist, Hindu, Sikh ever accept such an idea like that? Why is it a big deal if we say so? Allah(swt) has already told us He will preserve his religion, so why would a sane Muslim say it needs reform. Islam doesnt need change, Islam doesnt need reform. We ourselves need change and reform. This is what we r saying, but it doesnt seem like u understand. What does Secular Islam mean to you other than the laws and principles need change? And that its run by non Muslims or those who claim they r no longer Muslim?
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
If your Muslim, why in the world would u say "Islam" needs to be changed?
Are you purposely missing the point? I have repeatedly said that the view of many is that it is not islam that needs changing. It is many muslims that need changing.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-18-2007, 12:01 AM
Hmm, I probably am. Not purposely of course. Aren't we talking about people such as Manji and this specific summit? Like I said, how else am i supposed to take the words, secular Islam?
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Skillganon
02-18-2007, 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
It is not your duty or even your right to pass judgement on others. That presumably, is God's task.
Just simply making a statement that it is not your duty or rigth to pass Judgement is incorrect, otherwise we will not have Judges. Making Judgement is integral part of human.

I think you missed this part also.
It is stupid to go to a christian preist to learn about Islam
Secularism is a big no! no! to put it in obvious term and and I am sure muslims have expressed that quite clearly..

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Some are, yes. Some (Woodrow, Steve are good examples) are not.
You can ask them directly how knowledgable about Islam bro Woodrow & Steve are. They themself are student in Islam.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Yes.
I think you missed this part. Ignorance cannot be defended mate. It has to be eradicated via acquiring knowledge from true Scholars of Islam.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Yes, actually. The original, unblemished ideas are obvious if a person takes the time to learn with an open mind. It is not for me, but I appreciate some of the message. I don't particularly have a liking for what many muslims today think it is about.
I really do not think you have acquired the knowledge or understanding to propose such a notion, i.e. acquiring The original, unblemished ideas.

Actually, you have the opportunity to discuss your original unblemish Idias in this forum.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Perhaps they have become the other end of the spectrum, but there are many people that will attend. The real confrontational, paranoid, and judgmental people that I mentioned are those that discourage others with intolerant remarks, this is hardly allowing others the opportunity to explore their religion. It is controlling through harassment and intimidation.
Some of them are so out of Islam by their own admission and Ideas stipulated out of Ignorance.
They have the oppurtunity to sit down with a reputable scholar and ask question. The door is open.

You can't have a meeting about allowing the permissablility to drink alcohol, and invite people to it. Obviously it is forbidden in Islam clearly.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Actually, what many call for is not contrary to islam. What they call for is that people stop behaving in a way that is contrary to islam. To return to what it was pre-12th century.
Hello, the secularist are proposing all the notion that is post 12 century.

Muslims are suppose to practice Islam as the earlier generation practiced it (back to the salaf) and how they understood it. You can't get any pre-12th century than that. I agree with the statement you just made (except the part that what they are calling too), and that is what we have been telling you all this time. I agree their are people who behave un-accordance to islam, and these people, including those proclaimed secularist muslims, need to be reformed and changed back to the roots of Islam.
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Malaikah
02-18-2007, 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Are you purposely missing the point? I have repeatedly said that the view of many is that it is not islam that needs changing. It is many muslims that need changing.
No doubt many Muslims need change. But they need to change in such a way that they return to Islam, not from one deviation to another.
Reply

north_malaysian
02-21-2007, 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
LOL! Hey, north_malaysian is a good guy, but hardly a source. Anyway, forget it, it is unlikely that you will benefit from the truth anyway.
I've taken all of it from wikipedia..... sorry ... forgot to tell the sources... maybe because I've eaten too much oranges in Chinese New Year...:D
Reply

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