christian law - would you want to see it put into practice?

[Dawud_uk]

Peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

the old and new testiment has aspects of guidence that could be put into law,

if it was possible would those who believe in the bible as divinely inspired or literally God's word like to see the bible used more closely as a basis of law as the muslims use the Quran and example of Muhammad (pbuh) as the basis of our law?

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah

[Keltoi]

The Ten Commandments in the Bible were the foundation of many laws now in the books in much of the Western world, but of course most of them are common sense stuff designed to create a more stable society...as "Thou shall not kill." But to answer your question, no I would not want to live under a theocracy of any kind. As long as I am free to worship as I choose I don't see that a government based on any particular religion is necessary. Too much risk of abuse of minority rights and human rights in general. It sounds good in theory, but people are imperfect. I'm quite happy with a secular democracy.

[brenton]

I would not want a Christian law. Christians have tried "Christendom" and failed as leaders (I feel the same of Islamdom and Japanese religion, btw). New Testament Christianity is not about law at all, and much of Tanakh law is case law, so examples of constitutional law being worked out in specific contexts. I don't see that as necessary, and certainly not helpful.

So I vote no.

[wilberhum]

I totally believe in separation between church and state.
I want nothing to do with any kind of a theocracy.

I would never want to life under anything other than a secular government.

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[brenton]

I totally believe in separation between church and state.
I want nothing to do with any kind of a theocracy.

I would never want to life under anything other than a secular government.

I feel the same as a Christian. State interferring in religion is as bad as the opposite.

[wilberhum]

I feel the same as a Christian. State interferring in religion is as bad as the opposite.

Religion interferring in the state is much worse.

[snakelegs]

no no no. no theocracy. no thankyou.

[Pygoscelis]

My goodness no.

We'd all be stoned to death. Pretty much every last one of us. From shellfish eaters to anybody not following the "true" Christianity (especially "witches") to people who turn on their abusive parents.

We've spent the past few hundred years tearing society OUT of the clutches of Christian theocratic mad men. We're not going to turn back now.

[duskiness]

No. How would you put "turn the other cheek" into a bill?

[Umar001]

I think it would be interesting.

For those of us who make that far it'll be interesting to see what happens if there is ever a re instatment of the Judaic laws.

Anyhow, I am suprised most people dont feel God would give the past people good enough laws to last forever. Or maybe He did but we just dont want to be subdued.

[duskiness]

[B]
Anyhow, I am suprised most people dont feel God would give the past people good enough laws to last forever. Or maybe He did but we just dont want to be subdued.

He did. this "turn cheek" is an example of such a law. And you are right when you say we have problems with subduing to it. :embarrass
but that is so different from state law!!

[Umar001]

He did. this "turn cheek" is an example of such a law. And you are right when you say we have problems with subduing to it. :embarrass
but that is so different from state law!!

Hey Duskiness, welcome back first time we've spoke I think in agesss.

Well, you mean every other law which involved any form of punishment was taken away by the law of turning the other cheek?

[duskiness]

Hey Duskiness, welcome back first time we've spoke I think in agesss.

nice too see you too :) I 've missed this place

Well, you mean every other law which involved any form of punishment was taken away by the law of turning the other cheek?

No,no. I wanted say that in the end, God's law deals with morality and it is difficult to put it in legal terms.
Law is about this world, it is just a tool which helps us leave next to one another. God commandments are so much more important than this. And so much more general, it is almost impossible to turn them into law.

"give back Cesar what belongs to Cesar". To him belongs law and our obedience. As far as it doesn't break God commandments

[Umar001]

nice too see you too :) I 've missed this place

Welcome back and feel free to pm and complain about anything lol

No,no. I wanted say that in the end, God's law deals with morality and it is difficult to put it in legal terms.
Law is about this world, it is just a tool which helps us leave next to one another. God commandments are so much more important than this. And so much more general, it is almost impossible to turn them into law.

"give back Cesar what belongs to Cesar". To him belongs law and our obedience. As far as it doesn't break God commandments

I understand what you mean, but what I mean is that since there is an obvious need to have a law, don't you think using the one God gave to Moses would be the best thing, specially since it was from God.

I mean, ok, we can accept that we do not have a law given, and we leave to ceaser what is ceaser, but we also accept that we need a law, then wouldnt the next logical step be to look for a law that God has given to someone like that to Moses for a Christian so that at least that need would be satisfied?

[wilberhum]

wouldnt the next logical step be to look for a law that God has given to someone like that to Moses for a Christian so that at least that need would be satisfied?

No! The laws given to Moses does not cover the thousands of conditions that did not exist then.
Becides you always open to radical interpertation of those laws.

[Umar001]

No! The laws given to Moses does not cover the thousands of conditions that did not exist then.
Becides you always open to radical interpertation of those laws.

Well the things not covered then would be prayed over and the Holy SPirit as they believe is their teacher would give them into those truths.

[wilberhum]

Well the things not covered then would be prayed over and the Holy SPirit as they believe is their teacher would give them into those truths.

Wo ya. Middleages witch hunts, here we come. I don't believe that anymore than you do. I bet at least 90% of the Christians don't either. Christians are less unified that Muslims.

[Umar001]

Wo ya. Middleages witch hunts, here we come. I don't believe that anymore than you do. I bet at least 90% of the Christians don't either. Christians are less unified that Muslims.

Hmm well we are talking in an idealistic place, not neccesarily a realistic scenario

[wilberhum]

Hmm well we are talking in an idealistic place, not neccesarily a realistic scenario

As far as I'm concerned, an idealistic place, would not have any governmental infulance.

[Malaikah]

We'd all be stoned to death. Pretty much every last one of us. From shellfish eaters to anybody not following the "true" Christianity (especially "witches") to people who turn on their abusive parents.

Is that really true? I would assume we are talking about Christian law being implemented properly.

[ManchesterFolk]

Goverments run by religion tend to become corrupt after the first few stages.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

We'd all be stoned to death. Pretty much every last one of us. From shellfish eaters to anybody not following the "true" Christianity (especially "witches") to people who turn on their abusive parents.

If you were without sin yourself you could stone someone to death, but I do not believe there are any Christians who have not sinned today.

In the spirit of searching for the law of God

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk; and thanks for starting this topic,

I would like to see people living by Christian law, but I believe it needs to be done willingly.

Christian law favours justice for the poor, the oppressed, the widows and orphans and these are the people who should be protected by Christian law.

However the law of the land is written by wealthy and powerful people who often have a different agenda. They became wealthy and powerful by taking advantage of others and if I can give just one example by going back in history.

In 1066 William the Conqueror invaded England and divided the land out between his nobles. You could call this theft or you could say, to the victor go the spoils.

Many of the people who own these large country estates today can trace their ancestors back to Williams’s noble men.

If I was caught breaking into one of these houses to steal their possessions I would be convicted of theft. The irony might be that one of my ancestors in 1066 was evicted from this estate that I was trying to brake into today.

In this case the law protected a powerful invading army, and the law still protects those powerful families.

If someone stole £100 from me, and someone else stole a £100, 000 from a rich man, we can imagine the law would be more concerned about justice for the rich man, even though the £100 may seem like a greater loss to me.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[Pygoscelis]

Is that really true? I would assume we are talking about Christian law being implemented properly.

Yes it is really true. If you take the Bible at its word that is. You don't have to trust me on this one. Pick up a bible and take a look for yourself. It declares that lots and lots and lots of people should be stoned to death, from people who eat shellfish to people who disrespect their parents. It also teaches you the proper way to beat your slaves and the proper animals to kill in honor of the bloodthirsty God (some are worth more than others). It also has a shockingly strong obsession with male genetalia (seriously, that comes up again and again and again).

The bible is not the flowers and candy that it is often made out to be in today's western culture. Nor has it always been seen this way. Heretics have only recently (comparatively) stopped being killed for heresy. Only recently can somebody like me announce complete atheism and not fear for my safety.

[Malaikah]

No joke? Shellfish? ^o)

Are you SURE?

Would any of the Christian members here confirm this?

(Pygoscelis, if this is the mentality you are approaching Islam with, you really need to sit down and read the Quran and clear up a few things...)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

no offence but it honestly seems to me like those who want secular governments just want to be able to sin with little strings if any at all attached, Fornication/adultery/thievery these are all seen as minor things in the eyes of the secular government. Only murder is seen as a big deal, secular governments also thrive on selfish motives, they just want the better for themselves at the cost of others. Look at what happened just for some oil....


Edit: actually murder is also treated quite minor, they go to jail and have food/shelter/clothing. Im sure theres a lot of people who would murder for jail...

[brenton]

Yes it is really true. If you take the Bible at its word that is. You don't have to trust me on this one. Pick up a bible and take a look for yourself. It declares that lots and lots and lots of people should be stoned to death, from people who eat shellfish to people who disrespect their parents. It also teaches you the proper way to beat your slaves and the proper animals to kill in honor of the bloodthirsty God (some are worth more than others). It also has a shockingly strong obsession with male genetalia (seriously, that comes up again and again and again).

The bible is not the flowers and candy that it is often made out to be in today's western culture. Nor has it always been seen this way. Heretics have only recently (comparatively) stopped being killed for heresy. Only recently can somebody like me announce complete atheism and not fear for my safety.

No, I suppose if you read it like that, you are right.

But if you read the Bible properly, in its context--literary, historical, cultural, social, anthropological, linguistic, theological, and canonical--that is not how Christian reads the Bible--even a more "law-based" group like Roman Catholics.

Early Christian died for this principle: Gentile believers do not follow the law, but are guided through an ethical Christian life by the power of the Holy Spirit, discovered through the teaching of the apostles, Torah principles and community dialectic, and we live it knowing fully it can't be lived.

There is no way for someone to gauge or judge "joy" in the life of the community, but that is what Christian "law" is.

I am glad that agnostics and atheists and Christian groups have freedom from Christendoms of the past. I don't think that gives license to be ignorant or treat Christian groups today with any less respect.

[Malaikah]

But if you read the Bible properly, in its context--literary, historical, cultural, social, anthropological, linguistic, theological, and canonical--that is not how Christian reads the Bible--even a more "law-based" group like Roman Catholics.

How do you know that is how you are meant to read the bible?

Am I missing something? :? I don't understand why shellfish-eaters aren't being stoned to death, amongst other things?

Aren't the laws of God meant to be universally applied (by Christians)?

Gentile believers do not follow the law,

WHY didn't they follow it? Why is there a law if it isn't meant to be applied? :?

[Pygoscelis]

I went back to check and I recalled incorrectly. Shellfish eaters are not explicitly commanded to be killed. But they are participating in a great abomination, condemned in the same section as homosexuality, which is specifically ordered to be killed.

So I was somewhat wrong about the shellfish.

But fear not, bloodthirsty ones, for the following ARE to be executed immediately:

Witches

Anybody who worships any other God (you are to conquer them and destroy their property)

Sabbath Breakers. Specifically, anybody who works or lights a fire on the sabbath must be immediately put to death.

Men who engage in homosexual sex (are to be killed immediately)

Disobedient / rebellious children

Rapists

Rape VICTIMS if they do not scream loud enough when being raped (no kidding)

Aldulterers (both the man and woman to be put to death).

Men who have sex with their father's wives (both to die) or with their daughters in law (both to die pronto)

Men who have sex with women and their mothers, all three to be burned at the stake.

Anybody who engages in beastiality. And the animal too.

Blasphemers, foreign or domestic. They are special. They are to be stoned to death by the entire community en masse.

Intertribal (interracial) couples. God doesn't specifically tell you to kill these ones, but there is a story where he praises and rewards those who do.

And the list goes on and on. All of this is only from a couple of pages of the bible I flipped through.

[Pygoscelis]

Hrm every time I look at the bible I notice something new and scary.

Check out this section, Leviticus 27:

27:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

27:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the LORD by thy estimation

27:3 And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.

27:4 And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.

This is part of God's speech to Moses when receiving the 10 comandments.

So to say that Christianity values men more than women (ie inequality) is a claim that has some actual biblical backing. I never noticed this one before.

[Keltoi]

The obvious question would be when was the last time anybody was stoned to death by Christian law in the Western world? Was this during the Dark Ages or before?

I realize we are talking about a government literally devoted to carrying out the law described in the Bible, but Christians follow the word of Jesus Christ, or they are supposed to. Jesus Christ never ordered anyone to be stoned to death. If a government was formed devoted to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and not on the Old Testament laws, there wouldn't be a problem as long as it was done honestly and without corruption.

[wilberhum]

there wouldn't be a problem as long as it was done honestly and without corruption.

That is the problem that some refuse to take into account. As long as humans are involved there will be corruption and dishonesty.

[duskiness]

How do you know that is how you are meant to read the bible?

using your God-given reason and heart

Am I missing something? :? I don't understand why shellfish-eaters aren't being stoned to death, amongst other things?

don't you think that stoning shellfish eater is a bit too much? But I maybe bias, I love shellfish. ;)

WHY didn't they follow it? Why is there a law if it isn't meant to be applied? :?

we are once again going back to discussions about OT (Jewish) Law and why Christians don't obey it.
As for stoning: Pygoscelis reminded us that in OT adulterers are to be killed. When Jesus met one, He said

he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her

. Since then we are looking for someone without sin...

[duskiness]

Well the things not covered then would be prayed over and the Holy SPirit as they believe is their teacher would give them into those truths.

LOL, Eesa. 99% of law is not covered in Bible. International law, international privet law, labor law, corporation law, health law, administration law, administration procedure, constitutional law, environmental law....well Holy Spirit would have hands full of work ;)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

There were no laws when Adam and eve were created, they were given the freedom to do anything they liked apart from eat from the tree of knowledge. When Adam’s son Cain killed his brother Abel there was not a law saying thou shall not kill; so technically Cain was not breaking any laws by killing his brother.

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses many generations later, because mankind was getting more out of hand. I think it was God’s intention that we should follow the greatest commandments willingly and freely right from the time of Adam and Eve, but we have never been that faithful to god.

I think God gave mankind laws in a progressive ways, possibly in a similar way parents might lay down laws for their children. Loving parents hope their children will grow up being good but inevitably children push the limits of right and wrong.

When the child is a toddler the parents might just use stern words or slap the child. As the child grows up they might be grounded, or not given any pocket money. When they grow up to be a man different laws apply, they could be fined, imprisoned or executed.

I think there are a limited number of ways that God could give us laws, if we were all good we might not need any laws to follow. But as we know mankind seemed to get progressively worse in the ways we harm each other; and I think that God adjusted his laws to suit our behaviour.

In the spirit of striving to follow the spirit of the law,

Eric

[Malaikah]

LOL, Eesa. 99% of law is not covered in Bible. International law, international privet law, labor law, corporation law, health law, administration law, administration procedure, constitutional law, environmental law....well Holy Spirit would have hands full of work ;)

So basically, you CAN'T run a country by Christian law, it has no such law?

Which is an interesting contrast to Islam, which does cover all those things... hence why Muslims are meant to run their countries by Islamic law.

[Umar001]

LOL, Eesa. 99% of law is not covered in Bible. International law, international privet law, labor law, corporation law, health law, administration law, administration procedure, constitutional law, environmental law....well Holy Spirit would have hands full of work ;)

Well He was sent to teach and guide in to ALL truths so that'd be his job :p

[wilberhum]

So basically, you CAN'T run a country by Christian law, it has no such law?

Which is an interesting contrast to Islam, which does cover all those things... hence why Muslims are meant to run their countries by Islamic law.

What is interesting is that Christians figured out seperation of church and state is a good thing. Muslims have not got to that point. But I guess that if you want the Taliban or the Saudies to be the government then it is OK.
But it isn't for me nor have I ever heard of a non-Muslim that thought so either.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Malaikah;

So basically, you CAN'T run a country by Christian law, it has no such law?

As you say very few laws were written in the Bible, but if you were writing a new administration law today as a Christian, then any new law must depend on loving God above all else and loving your neighbour as your self. Is your new administration law fair to all people or is it only fair to some?

All the law and the prophets should hang on the greatest commandments according to Christ, and you could compare these commandments to a hook to hang your coat on. If the hook falls on the floor the coat falls on the floor. If the new law does not hang on the greatest commandments the new law is floored too.

Christian laws seemed to be written with the purpose that we should try and change ourselves rather than try and change other people. We should not judge others it is for God to be our judge and the judge of those who do an injustice against us. As we judge others so we will be judged ourselves by God

In the spirit of searching for the spirit of the law

Eric