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syilla
02-15-2007, 01:29 AM
hello there...

There are so many claims in this board especially, that christians and the jews (i think) that go against the war?

Well...i know war is something we should try our best to avoid it.

But what if war is unavoidable, and you have to fight for justice. What's wrong with fighting with passion. Won't you fight with all your heart to protect your country, loves one, your property or especially your religion? Would you let your enemy to come and attack your loves one and doing all the disgusting stuffs?

What is someone wants to rape your loves one? Won't you even try a bit to risk your life?

Please tell me...what is wrong on fighting for justice?




Peace is not Submission

In such an event, we cannot say that because we are the advocates of peace, we are opposed to war. Such a thing would mean that we are advocates of misery; advocates of surrender. Make no mistake, peace and surrender are as different from each other as chalk and cheese. The meaning of peace is honorable coexistence with others, but surrender is not honorable coexistence; it is coexistence that on one side is absolutely dishonorable. In fact, it is a coexistence that is absolutely dishonorable on both sides. On one side, the dishonor is aggression, and on the other side, it is the dishonor of surrender in the face of zulm, in the face of injustice and oppression.

So this fallacy must be eradicated, and a person who declares himself opposed to war, saying that war is totally bad - be it injustice or be it defense and resistance in the face of injustice - has made a great mistake. War that means aggression must be
fully condemned while war that means standing up (qiyam) in the face of transgression is to be commended and necessary for human existence.
source
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Keltoi
02-15-2007, 02:07 AM
There are always some instances where violence cannot be avoided. Protecting one's family and loved ones is one of those circumstances. War for war's sake is wrong and violence for the sake of violence is something to avoid.
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snakelegs
02-15-2007, 02:24 AM
keltoi said it well - i agree.
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brenton
02-15-2007, 02:35 AM
I'm not sure if there are some cases where violence is unavioidable. I'm still working this out. The "turn the other cheek thing," you know.
I don't know all the answers, but I know that conquering other countries or towns is wrong.
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Pygoscelis
02-15-2007, 08:59 AM
Well its a question of which is worse, participating in the war and killing soldiers and risking innocent civilians in crossfire or allowing whatever you are fighting to continue.

If somebody is on a killing spree, then it makes sense to stop them. Hitler was gassing lots and lots of people and was planning to conquer Europe and exterminate everybody that didn't match his eugenic plan (Jews were only one group amongst many being exterminated though they get all the recognition now). That was a war worth fighting and I greatly respect our veterans from the first and second world wars.

But pretty much every war that the western world has participated in since then has been more worthy of scorn than praise.
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KAding
02-15-2007, 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Well its a question of which is worse, participating in the war and killing soldiers and risking innocent civilians in crossfire or allowing whatever you are fighting to continue.

If somebody is on a killing spree, then it makes sense to stop them. Hitler was gassing lots and lots of people and was planning to conquer Europe and exterminate everybody that didn't match his eugenic plan (Jews were only one group amongst many being exterminated though they get all the recognition now). That was a war worth fighting and I greatly respect our veterans from the first and second world wars.

But pretty much every war that the western world has participated in since then has been more worthy of scorn than praise.
I wouldn't call the First World War something to be proud of. It was probably the most senseless massacre in the history of mankind, one truly fought not for ideals, but power.

I sometimes think the intervention in Bosnia and in Korea were worth it. If you look at North Korea, one can only be grateful that those many tens of millions in the south do not have to suffer the same faith as their Northern brothers.

Afghanistan was also something that needed to happen IMHO.
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-15-2007, 11:05 AM
:salamext:

nice topic and a very important one.

War should be done in accordance with the laws of Allah subhana wata'ala, right and wrong can only be truelly understood when you look at it from an islamic perspective. I know many of you will disagree to this (non-muslims), but islam is so perfect that we only ask the non-muslims to pay a share of their money to those in need, who can call this unjust? and if they refuse this then we fight them !
no this is not cold blooded, its cold that they are so greedy and gluttonous that they refuse to help out those in need. Also war is required when our religion is threatened, how can we be attacked and turn the other cheek, if we keep doing that then the powerful and corrupt will rule everything.

"for evil to prevail it takes the good people to do nothing! its the good people that must stand up for whats right ! and a form of standing up might be marching in war."
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Re.TiReD
02-15-2007, 11:12 AM
Nothing wrong with war if it is justified.....peace
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-15-2007, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
hello there...

There are so many claims in this board especially, that christians and the jews (i think) that go against the war?

Well...i know war is something we should try our best to avoid it.

But what if war is unavoidable, and you have to fight for justice. What's wrong with fighting with passion. Won't you fight with all your heart to protect your country, loves one, your property or especially your religion? Would you let your enemy to come and attack your loves one and doing all the disgusting stuffs?

What is someone wants to rape your loves one? Won't you even try a bit to risk your life?

Please tell me...what is wrong on fighting for justice?

fighting for justice is ok


War is a business .the graetest business on earth which make people become billionare in one day and others orphan in a second
Do these businessman care about u or money ????
War must be created to sell weapons ,a missile may cost one million dollar but your whole life all your familly has worked may have not reached one percent of that sum of money





source
fighting for justice is ok


War is a business .the graetest business on earth which make people become billionare in one day and others orphan in a second
Do these businessman care about u or money ????
War must be created to sell weapons ,a missile may cost one million dollar but your whole life all your familly has worked may have not reached one percent of that sum of money

afghan fight russia to make america become the first power of this world without knowing that ,arabs invested a lot of money in this war and now america fights afghan for islamic reasons
in other words
we have done the ~~sale boulot des americains ``
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duskiness
02-15-2007, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by brenton
I'm not sure if there are some cases where violence is unavioidable. I'm still working this out. The "turn the other cheek thing," you know.
I don't know all the answers, but I know that conquering other countries or towns is wrong.
seems we have similar thoughts about it :)

So first of all "turn the other cheek", "love your enemies". God is asking us to bring peace and heal the world. I'm not sure if He allows us take different way
Secondly what is so important then life? You say "justice". what does it mean?
Protecting your family - i would agree. But what more?
Allowing using violence is like letting out all the worst demons with have in us. Even when the cause for war is "just", then people do such things that it has nothing to do with justice.
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Pygoscelis
02-15-2007, 07:41 PM
War! Huah! Wha-aat is it good for? Absolutely Nothin! Say it again! Huah!
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Muezzin
02-15-2007, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
War! Huah! Wha-aat is it good for? Absolutely Nothin! Say it again! Huah!
Dangit, you beat me to it! Oh well. I'll just continue.

Good God, y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely NOTHIN'!

:p
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SATalha
02-15-2007, 07:47 PM
War= Evil
War= Money
War= Obssesion
War= Justice
War= Oil
War= Power
War= Dominance
War= .....I run out
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Zulkiflim
02-15-2007, 08:39 PM
Salaam,

Islam allow only defence in the face of aggresion.

FIGHT THEM AS THEY FIGHT YOU.

Muslim are not allowed to start wars.

THEY SAY PEACE<BUT NAY THEY ARE THE TROUBLEMAKERS>


So when you seek for peace,you must ask yourself,whose PEACE are you fighting for?

Your own,or for both?

In Islmaic context it is always for both,soldiers captured cannot be harmed,cannot be ridiculed.
is this in play now?

Western antion who talk about democracy and peace and love and what not,send their prisoner to muslim countries to extract information thru dubious means.


The western world would ask others to do what they know is wrong.
but muslim do what they have been ORDAINED TO BE HARAAM.

Both are in cahoots,one paying the other accepting under the guise of PEACE.

So if you fight,fight not to win but fight to stop both sides from harming each other more.

A hadith,2 men fought and in thier fight their blood lust soared and when the killing stroke were to come,it did not fall.
Why.,
Simple,the warrior remembered Allah,if he had killed it was for his own sake,inpure,unjust.
But in the end he remebered what he fought for and whose laws were to be upheld.

Do not kill when maiming is enough
Do not maim when capture is enough
Do not capture when surrender is given.

Simple and striaghtforward.

But the other part,,FIGHT AS THEY FIGHT YOU has corrupted the overzealous to be as SATAN IS.
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Kittygyal
02-15-2007, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
War! Huah! Wha-aat is it good for? Absolutely Nothin! Say it again! Huah!
oh Gudness gracious me loooooooooool :lol: hmpftt!
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Ubaidah
02-15-2007, 09:43 PM
Like it has been already stated, war is sometimes unavoidable. But that is a very rare instance. I hear & read people say that war is alright just as long as "it is justified". And that always makes me think, "justified" is too broad. Simply because what it justifiable to you may not be to me. War is never "right". Defending ones self is honrable & right, but going into war & killing another human being is NEVER right.
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Keltoi
02-15-2007, 10:42 PM
It's a very complicated question. If you make an argument that seems to suggest violence is justified in some circumstances, that sounds too vague and up to interpretation. However, there isn't any honorable person who would stand and do nothing if his loved ones were being directly threatened...but of course then you have to define what "threatened" means. There is no right answer...except that violence is bad.
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syilla
02-16-2007, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by JMF
Like it has been already stated, war is sometimes unavoidable. But that is a very rare instance. I hear & read people say that war is alright just as long as "it is justified". And that always makes me think, "justified" is too broad. Simply because what it justifiable to you may not be to me. War is never "right". Defending ones self is honrable & right, but going into war & killing another human being is NEVER right.
Actually in islam...you hardly can start a war. Even if your country has unjust leader, you cannot ally with your enemy to overthrown the leader. UNLESS the leader stopped you from doing SALAH.

So please tell me what's wrong with Jihad (please read about Jihad before posting).

Maybe someone can post the rule according to islam on war.
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brenton
02-16-2007, 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by duskiness
seems we have similar thoughts about it :)

So first of all "turn the other cheek", "love your enemies". God is asking us to bring peace and heal the world. I'm not sure if He allows us take different way
Secondly what is so important then life? You say "justice". what does it mean?
Protecting your family - i would agree. But what more?
Allowing using violence is like letting out all the worst demons with have in us. Even when the cause for war is "just", then people do such things that it has nothing to do with justice.
I've been thinking about this all day today.
I don't know if it is right, but I would:
1. Defend my family
2. Defend the innocent in cases like Shoah (Nazi holocaust), the Armenian genocide, Bosnian genocide, etc.

So, I guess I'm a pragmatic pacifist, not one just on principle. I think God may call us to die in weakness, and we as Christians are called to live the principle of weakness in our lives, but as much as I admire the Mennonites, that isn't what I believe.
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syilla
02-16-2007, 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by duskiness
seems we have similar thoughts about it :)


Secondly what is so important then life? You say "justice". what does it mean?
Protecting your family - i would agree. But what more?
Protecting your family...in so many situation. Like you country being invaded. Your family and friends being tortured.

Justice in Islam is everything because of Allah subhanahuwata'ala. Everything is because of Him, not about politics or any other kind of reason other than that.
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-16-2007, 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by Kittygyal
oh Gudness gracious me loooooooooool :lol: hmpftt!
u are right ,more than right
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syilla
02-16-2007, 09:06 AM
Allah says in the Qur'an what means:

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities.Lo! Allah loves not, aggressors.(Al-Baqarah 2:190)

The above permission to fight clearly lays down the following conditions:
(1) Never commit aggression; fighting is allowed only for self-defense.
(2) Fighting must never be against non-combatants or non-fighting personnel.
Please remember we are talking about concept of war and jihad according to islam.
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Kittygyal
02-16-2007, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy
u are right ,more than right
salamualikum
:lol: i am right in what way just for saying ^ that hehe ;D
Ma'assalama
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duskiness
02-16-2007, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by brenton
I think God may call us to die in weakness, and we as Christians are called to live the principle of weakness in our lives, but as much as I admire the Mennonites, that isn't what I believe.
I like the way you put it. Mennonites and Quakers changed a lot about my thinking about war (and place of faith in life). I have never accepted to the very end their position but I just can't get over it. They are like walking question marks to me...
Originally Posted by syilla
Justice in Islam is everything because of Allah subhanahuwata'ala. Everything is because of Him, not about politics or any other kind of reason other than that.
But who decides about war? Politicians. War are usually between states - so there is always politics. And sometimes few noble aims among many lowlife reasons
Fighting must never be against non-combatants or non-fighting personnel
maybe in perfect world this would be the case. But in this world when you accept war, it would be more then naivety to think that they would not be hurt. In fact it would be just lying to ourself.
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Keltoi
02-16-2007, 10:13 PM
In war it is usually civilians who suffer the most.
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syilla
02-17-2007, 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by duskiness
But who decides about war? Politicians. War are usually between states - so there is always politics. And sometimes few noble aims among many lowlife reasons
maybe in perfect world this would be the case. But in this world when you accept war, it would be more then naivety to think that they would not be hurt. In fact it would be just lying to ourself.
The ulama' (scholars) whom usually decides.

But you are right about the accepting war nowadays. But what about during the prophet time? What do you think?
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AzizMostafa
02-17-2007, 04:24 AM
War is OK only if 1) in the path of God and 2) under the leadership of Imam.
And the 2 are well-defined in the Glorious Quran.
The key word is to know the Imam Today?!
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Um_ahmad
02-17-2007, 05:05 AM
I wish peace in the world....for once.
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AzizMostafa
02-17-2007, 05:23 AM
> I wish peace in the world....for once.
No peace without Imam?
See what happened and happens among Muslims under the leadership of non-Muslims? Remember:
1. Palestine is occupied since 1948 and the Muslims are still divided.
2. Arabs supported Saddam against Iran on the pretexts of Sunni/Shii and Arabs/Persians .
3. Kuwait of Arabs was invaded by Saddam.
4. Saddam was crushed with the help of Muslims save Iran.
5. Iraq was invaded with the help of Arabs save Iran.
6. ++++
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wilberhum
02-17-2007, 05:33 AM
Interesting. All problems are caused by non-Muslims. The real advantage of that is Muslims don't have to take responsibility for anything wrong.
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Woodrow
02-17-2007, 06:47 AM
Does anybody engage in warfare and not think they are justified?

I will agree that there are times war is unavoidable. There are even times it is necessary.


In my humble opinion it can only be justified if all possible means to prevent it have been exhausted and an aggressor is still actively engaged in trying to destroy you.

Sadly the world has many more incentives to pursue warfare than to seek prevention of it.

So "What is wrong with war?"

I doubt if it can be reduced to a right or wrong question. It is an unanswered question of "if all means to prevent it have been used." We can only pray that our individual actions were necessary and Justified.
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Eric H
02-17-2007, 12:16 PM
Blessings and peace be with you Um_ahmad;
I wish peace in the world....for once.
I believe you are right; this is the greatest way to bring glory to God.

How do we bring glory to God through war, even so called self defence, how do we help God by trying to prolong our life by killing others in self defence?

We will all stand before God at some point, how will we try and justify the violence we used in our time on Earth.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 12:42 PM
In the face of violent attack, one's only option is to die or fight. In those circumstances perhaps it is justified that one reacts violently. I do know that it is human nature to do so.
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Eric H
02-18-2007, 04:31 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;
In the face of violent attack, one's only option is to die or fight. In those circumstances perhaps it is justified that one reacts violently. I do know that it is human nature to do so
I agree with you that it seems to be in human nature to fight back when under attack.

But was Christ trying to teach us the ways of God in the Garden of Gethsemane, at his trial and through his crucifixion. He had the means to fight back by calling on legions of Angels to help him, but he chose a different way.

In the spirit of striving for peace in my heart.

Eric
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Keltoi
02-18-2007, 05:14 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

I agree with you that it seems to be in human nature to fight back when under attack.

But was Christ trying to teach us the ways of God in the Garden of Gethsemane, at his trial and through his crucifixion. He had the means to fight back by calling on legions of Angels to help him, but he chose a different way.

In the spirit of striving for peace in my heart.

Eric
Absolutely. If all of mankind attempted to be more like Christ we wouldn't be in any of this mess.
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Eric H
02-18-2007, 09:38 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;
If all of mankind attempted to be more like Christ we wouldn't be in any of this mess.
At Church today we listened to Lukes Gospel.

Lk 6:27-38

Jesus said to his disciples:
“To you who hear I say,
love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
To the person who strikes you on one cheek,
offer the other one as well,
and from the person who takes your cloak,
do not withhold even your tunic.
Give to everyone who asks of you,
and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
For if you love those who love you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners love those who love them.
And if you do good to those who do good to you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners do the same.
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners lend to sinners,
and get back the same amount.
But rather, love your enemies and do good to them,
and lend expecting nothing back;
then your reward will be great
and you will be children of the Most High,
for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

“Stop judging and you will not be judged.
Stop condemning and you will not be condemned.
Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Give, and gifts will be given to you;
a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing,
will be poured into your lap.
For the measure with which you measure
will in return be measured out to you.”

In the spirit of praying for peace

Eric
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AzizMostafa
02-19-2007, 11:25 AM
Lessons should be learnt from the last defensive war of Hizbullah under the leadership of Hasan Nasrullah, the man of peace and war.
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Keltoi
02-19-2007, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by AzizMostafa
Lessons should be learnt from the last defensive war of Hizbullah under the leadership of Hasan Nasrullah, the man of peace and war.
Somehow I don't make the connection.
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-20-2007, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;


At Church today we listened to Lukes Gospel.

Lk 6:27-38

Jesus said to his disciples:
“To you who hear I say,
love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
To the person who strikes you on one cheek,
offer the other one as well,
and from the person who takes your cloak,
do not withhold even your tunic.
Give to everyone who asks of you,
and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
For if you love those who love you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners love those who love them.
And if you do good to those who do good to you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners do the same.
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners lend to sinners,
and get back the same amount.
But rather, love your enemies and do good to them,
and lend expecting nothing back;
then your reward will be great
and you will be children of the Most High,
for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

“Stop judging and you will not be judged.
Stop condemning and you will not be condemned.
Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Give, and gifts will be given to you;
a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing,
will be poured into your lap.
For the measure with which you measure
will in return be measured out to you.”

In the spirit of praying for peace

Eric
good saying . it seems rather the same sayings of the prophet muhammad peace be upon him and upon jesus also
aliitle question
how many american are christian?
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Woodrow
02-20-2007, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy
good saying . it seems rather the same sayings of the prophet muhammad peace be upon him and upon jesus also
aliitle question
how many american are christian?
About 140 Million claim membership in a Christian denomination. That is roughly half of all Americans.

Source: http://www.facsnet.org/issues/faith/sanchagrin.php
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Um_ahmad
02-20-2007, 09:30 PM
Woodrow is this a fact? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
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AzizMostafa
02-21-2007, 07:22 AM
God, the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peaceable, the All-Faithful,
the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime says:
> O you who believe, why do you say what you do not?
> Very hateful is it to God, that you say what you do not;
> God loves those who fight in His Way in ranks, as though they were a building well-compacted.
__________________________________________________ __
Verses 61:2-4 of the Glorious Quran
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khushnood
02-21-2007, 07:45 AM
don't think war is justified in general.but in the present conditions,war has become a necessity 4 the muslims,for the sake of our lives,our property,our dignity and above all our religion
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Woodrow
02-21-2007, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Um_ahmad
Woodrow is this a fact? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
That number is based on the number of members in the 149 major Christian denominations in the US. Many people would say that many of them while members of a denomination actually are not practicing Christians. The current Population is 280 million and 140 million claim membership in a Christian Church. So roughly half the population claims to be Christian.
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NoName55
02-21-2007, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by AzizMostafa
> I wish peace in the world....for once.
No peace without Imam?
See what happened and happens among Muslims under the leadership of non-Muslims? Remember:
1. Palestine is occupied since 1948 and the Muslims are still divided.
2. Arabs supported Saddam against Iran on the pretexts of Sunni/Shii and Arabs/Persians .
3. Kuwait of Arabs was invaded by Saddam.
4. Saddam was crushed with the help of Muslims save Iran.
5. Iraq was invaded with the help of Arabs save Iran.
6. ++++
I do now, and always will support anyone and everyone who is anti-Iran. Friend of my enemy is my enemy. Br. Saddam Showed more dignity in his last hour than there is in whole of Iran.
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Sweetness
02-22-2007, 03:49 AM
War is wrong. Innocent people always suffer the most.
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AzizMostafa
02-22-2007, 04:34 AM
Wrong or not? Verses 2:19-193 of the Glorious Quran say it all:
____________________________________
And fight in the Way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not. God loves not the aggressors
And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you
Persecution is more grievous than slaying
But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there
Then, if they fight you, slay them
Such is the recompense of unbelievers
But if they give over, surely God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate
Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God’s
Then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers
____________________________________
Regards with Flowers
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khushnood
02-22-2007, 05:40 AM
Originally Posted by AzizMostafa
Wrong or not? Verses 2:19-193 of the Glorious Quran say it all:
____________________________________
And fight in the Way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not. God loves not the aggressors
And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you
Persecution is more grievous than slaying
But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there
Then, if they fight you, slay them
Such is the recompense of unbelievers
But if they give over, surely God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate
Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God’s
Then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers
____________________________________
Regards with Flowers
so true
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NoName55
02-22-2007, 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by khushnood
so true
:sl:

But quite a few mistranlated words there(thus changed the mean of whole at least 1 ayah).

Look, see below is the proof


وَقَاتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ الَّذِينَ يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ وَلا تَعْتَدُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُحِبُّ الْمُعْتَدِينَ (١٩٠)وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَخْرِجُوهُمْ مِنْ حَيْثُ أَخْرَجُوكُمْ وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ وَلا تُقَاتِلُوهُمْ عِنْدَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ حَتَّى يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِيهِ فَإِنْ قَاتَلُوكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ كَذَلِكَ جَزَاءُ الْكَافِرِينَ (١٩١)فَإِنِ انْتَهَوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ (١٩٢)وَقَاتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ لِلَّهِ فَإِنِ انْتَهَوْا فَلا عُدْوَانَ إِلا عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ (١٩٣)الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْحُرُمَاتُ قِصَاصٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُوا عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ (١٩٤)وَأَنْفِقُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَلا تُلْقُوا بِأَيْدِيكُمْ إِلَى التَّهْلُكَةِ وَأَحْسِنُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ (١٩٥)

Reply

Philosopher
02-22-2007, 07:05 AM
Some pictures in this thread will summarize what's wrong with war:
http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...ured-film.html
Reply

zoro
02-22-2007, 11:22 AM
Syilla: I think that the question "What is wrong with war?" misleads; I think that a better question would be "What are right and wrong reasons for resorting to organized violence?"

In your original post, you listed some reasons for resorting to personal violence (e.g., threats to yourself and to your family). Those of us who hold the opinion that your prime goals are your own survival and the survival of your family would undoubtedly agree that you would be justified in using violence, as a last resort, in pursuit of those prime goals, provided that you didn't infringe on other people's equal right to pursue theirs. Extending those ideas, if a group of other people threaten not only your and your family's survival but also similarly threaten your neighbors', then I expect that most people would agree that you'd be justified in joining with others in resorting to organized violence against the aggressors.

Continuing with that type of analysis, I think that the U.S. was justified in going to war against al Qaeda (which initiated violence on the U.S.) and even against Iraq, given Saddam Hussein's refusal to comply with relevant U.N. resolutions and his threats to use WMD (which, however, turned out to be mostly his and his sons' arrogant blustering). I'd similarly argue that if Iran continues to threaten the U.S. (or those people that the U.S. has obligated itself to protect), then the U.S. would be justified in using force to remove the current theocratic leaders of Iran. Similarly, if al Qaeda continues to threaten the U.S. with WMD, then given Osama bin Laden's apparent fixation on symbols, I think that the U.S. Congress should authorize the U.S. president to warn al Qaeda, now, that should they attack, the U.S. will no longer abide by relevant articles in the Geneva Convention (dealing with cultural heritage) and will, exactly 72 hours after such an attack (giving people time to leave), instantaneously transform Mecca into a pile of radioactive rubble in the desert. And I'll add that I consider it bizarre that anyone should consider any religious symbol to be worth more than a single person's life, but for those Muslims who might think otherwise, perhaps such a threat to destroy Mecca would encourage them to try harder to reign-in extremists in their midst.

On the other hand, there are cases when resorting to violence even in pursuit of one's prime goals is unwise. For example, if you or your antagonist initiated violence in pursuit of disputed land or water or other critical resources (resources that each side required for their and their families' survival), then although that would seem to be a justified reason for resorting to violence, in fact it would be wrong to resort to war, because whatever the outcome of the war, the problem almost certainly wouldn't be solved. That is, in such cases, the root problem would be too many people for the carrying capacity of the land; therefore, a wiser solution to the problem would be to reduce the population. And although it's true that wars have been effective in decreasing populations, surely most people would agree that a wiser solution would be to take actions (such as birth control and less consumption) to achieve sustainable development. Further, many wars are not only foolish ways to try to solve problems but also are waged for what most people consider to be the wrong reasons. For example, some psychopaths apparently "enjoy" war (for such people, war may relieve trauma from the abuse they received as children), some people desire war for the possible financial and other economic gains that war might yield them, and many clerical and political leaders use war to gain or retain their power over the people.

In my view, consequently, at the root of many problems that lead to war is that groups of people hold conflicting opinions about goals --- and hold such opinions "religiously", even though there's no reliable and relevant data to support their opinions. As examples and even though it's difficult to fathom such stupidity, some Jews actually "believe" that some giant landlord in the sky gave some land to them, some Americans and Iranians actually "believe" that a "war to end all wars" is desirable (as a forerunner to the return of their respective "messiahs"), and most Muslims apparently "believe" what their clerics tell them: that if they'll do what the clerics tell them, then they'll be rewarded with the oxymoronic idea of eternal life in a fictitious paradise. In each case, no reliable data support such "beliefs". In addition and most unfortunately, as an example of what's known as "the tragedy of the commons", most people apparently "believe" that they have the "right" to have as many children as they desire and to consume as much as they want, without regard to the carrying capacity of this poor old Earth.

In general, "what's wrong with war" is that it's too easy. As David Freidman said: "The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations." Peace, on the other hand, is much more difficult to attain and to maintain. As is commonly stated, "there can be no peace without justice", but the problem with that idea (as I explain in more detail in my free online book at htttp://zenofzero.net/ ) is that social justice is just opinion -- and there'll be no agreement about justice until there's agreement about values and, in turn, no agreement about values, until there's agreement on objectives (since all values have meaning only relative to some objective). Therefore, I think that a way to peace can be found if most people would agree with what I consider to be obvious from an enormous quantity of reliable data: not only that their prime goals are their dual survival goals (of themselves and their families) but also, as Muhammad said in his last sermon, that all humans are members of the same human family (with no one more distantly related than as 50th cousin). If we could agree on those prime goals and if we could hold opinions only as strongly as relevant and reliable evidence warrants, then surely we could agree that our values are to be measured not with respect to some fictitious ideas about eternal life and paradise (as advocated by the foolish clerics of the world) but measured with respect to the continued evolution of the human family.

Consistent with my opinions expressed above (and for which supportive data are available), I therefore think that taking the following half-dozen steps would help eliminate wars. 1) Stop child abuse, 2) Make war profiteering illegal, worldwide (which would require a worldwide judiciary and associated policing powers), 3) Promote democracy and basic human rights throughout the world, 4) Teach all children the essence of "critical thinking", (i.e., to hold opinions only as strongly as relevant, reliable evidence warrants), 5) permit married couples to have a child only if they demonstrate to examiners elected by each community that they have potentials to be good parents (e.g., that they're not potential child abusers and that they know how to think critically), and 6) Promote widespread recognition that the most sensible, achievable, and worthwhile goal for humans to pursue is not to attain some fictitious "eternal life" in an equally fictitious "paradise" but to help humanity evolve into what is not yet an appropriate designation, i.e., Homo sapiens (the wise ones).
Reply

AzizMostafa
02-22-2007, 08:16 PM
Zoro, short + to the point answers - Links will make us happy:

1. In whose hands is the UN?
2. How did al-Qaeda come to power? Who was behind them?
3. Who supplied Saddam with WMD?
4. Why did UN+US cover up Saddam’s crimes when he used them?
5. Why was Saddam endlessly assisted when he suppressed his own people and invaded Iran, but crushed when invaded Kuwait?

6. Did Holocaust justify the occupation of Palestine?
7. Did 9/11 justify the Holocausts in Iraq+Afganistan?

8. Will US+Israel instantaneously transform Tehran into a pile of radioactive rubble as they did in Hiroshima and Nakazaki? Remember:
With the help of US + the Silence of UN, Israel failed to achieve its murderous goals in Lebanon in spite of the murderous actions against a small group that has neither Marine nor Air Force,

9. Why should we follow the half-dozen steps of an Agnostic and leave the instructions of the All-Knowing?

Hope these 2 threads help:
http://typophile.com/node/30209?from...ts_per_page=50
http://typophile.com/node/29708?from...ts_per_page=41
Reply

zoro
02-22-2007, 11:40 PM
Okay -- but I have no links to provide, other than my (free) on-line book at www.zenofzero.net.

1. "In whose hands is the UN?" I don't know if it's in anyone's "hands"; instead, it looks to me as if it's essentially out of control: a next to useless debating society. Would that it would become in the hands of all the people.

2. "How did al-Qaeda come to power? Who was behind them?" Well, I'd need to dig into the data to be more confident of my response, but my impression is that they were first supported by the CIA as a part of the Cold War.

3. "Who supplied Saddam with WMD?" Again, I'd like confirmatory data, but my impression is that it was again a U.S. administration (under Reagan or Bush-1)

4. "Why did UN+US cover up Saddam’s crimes when he used them?" Well, I don't know if they did, but I imagine that if they did, people in the Reagan or Bush-1 administrations were trying to cover up their own mistakes.

5. "Why was Saddam endlessly assisted when he suppressed his own people and invaded Iran, but crushed when invaded Kuwait?" Well, I don't know about "endlessly assisted", but I expect that people in the Reagan administration were pleased to see someone else take on Iran (after the Iranians had violated international law by occupying the U.S. Embassy and taking hostages), and I expect that people in the Bush-1 administration (and in the rest of the "coalition") were worried that Saddam was "getting too big for his britches".

6. "Did Holocaust justify the occupation of Palestine?" No, I don't think so -- but perhaps the terrible refusal of the U.S. administrations under Roosevelt and Truman to not only not welcome but to refuse to accept all the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust (and even earlier, not to welcome all the Jewish people who tried to leave Germany and France before the Holocaust, plus similar terrible behaviors of other countries) forced Jewish people to take drastic actions for themselves. And although you didn't ask for my suggestions, I'd like to add that I wish the current U.S. Congress would either 1) offer all Israelites U.S. citizenship, now, if they'd abandon their silly "holy" land, or 2) invite Israel and Palestine (and Jordan and Lebanon) to become full-fledged states of the United States (each complete with two senators and the number of representatives appropriate for their populations), subject to all current laws. In the case of the second option, I think that, then, the abominable situation in the MidEast would quickly disappear (because restricting the free flow of people, goods, and ideas among U.S. states is prohibited by the U.S. Constitution).

7. "Did 9/11 justify the Holocausts in Iraq+Afganistan?" Well, first, I don't think you meant to capitalize the word "holocaust", but second and more importantly, be careful of the word "justify"; as Emerson said, "one man's justice is another's injustice" -- in other words, (social) justice is just opinion. If you would ask if I hoped that not a single person were killed as a result of 9/11, my answer would be, yes. If you asked if I wished that 9/11 never happen, then again I'd respond, yes. If you asked if I wished that the Bush-2 administration would have tried harder to find other ways to fight their poorly named "war on terror", again I'd say, yes -- and even suggest that such a way could have been found (and could still be found) if they had committed only 10% of the money that they've spent on the war to try to educate Muslims to emerge from their clerically imposed Dark Ages. But whereas you asked "Did 9/11 justify the [h]olocausts in Iraq+Afg[h]anistan", my answer is, no. Nonetheless, I think that the reaction to 9/11 to try to eliminate al-Qaeda was "justified" -- but the actions of the Bush-2 administration have been terribly, horribly, and atrociously bungled.

8. "Will US+Israel instantaneously transform Tehran into a pile of radioactive rubble as they did in Hiroshima and Nakazaki? Remember: With the help of US + the Silence of UN, Israel failed to achieve its murderous goals in Lebanon in spite of the murderous actions against a small group that has neither Marine nor Air Force," Well, I don't know what you're referring to that you asked me to "remember... murderous goals in Lebanon" but with respect to your direct question, my answer is, I certainly hope not. I hope that, instead, some wisdom prevails. It would be a nice change.

9. "Why should we follow the half-dozen steps of an Agnostic and leave the instructions of the All-Knowing?" Well, I'd recommend that you always use your brain as best as you can, e.g., to determine if you think that the proposed half-dozen steps have merit and to determine if your assumption that you have "the instructions of the All-Knowing" is correct (and not just a con game that the clerics have foisted on you, so that they can avoid working for a living). In particular, I consider it wise always to be skeptical of someone who claims that they "know" -- and to be triply skeptical of any claim that they "know" the "knowledge" of the "all knowing". That's equivalent to the clerics telling you not to think for yourself, that they'll do your thinking for you, which is advice that I hope that you (and everyone) will always reject.
Reply

syilla
02-26-2007, 08:53 AM
MashaAllah that is long

i only want to discuss islam's concept on war. not politics
Reply

AzizMostafa
02-26-2007, 02:29 PM
Islam-Politics= Made in USA?!
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