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England
02-15-2007, 07:09 PM
[b]Thousands of council staff are being trained to police the smoking ban in bars, restaurants and shops in England.

Ministers have given councils £29.5m to pay for staff, who will be able to give on-the-spot £50 fines to individuals and take court action against premises.

They will have the power to enter premises undercover, allowing them to sit among drinkers, and will even be able to photograph and film people.

Smokers' groups and industry officials said the plans were a "waste of money".

The smoking ban is due to come into force on 1 July. It covers virtually all enclosed public places including offices, factories, pubs and bars. But neither outdoor space nor private homes will be affected.

Business owners also have a duty to ensure their customers comply - they are liable for £200 fines if proper signs are not displayed and, potentially, fines of £2,500 if they refuse to enforce the ban.



Local authorities have been given the power to enforce the ban so it does not consume police time.

A government-funded course is expected to train 1,200 council officers in the next few months with more expected to follow later.

Councils will use these fully-trained officers to brief other staff on how to enforce the law as many towns and cities will have scores of officers patrolling public places.

The teams will be made up of new staff and existing officers who will be freed up to carry out inspections and offer advice.

In London, there will be several hundred of the so-called anti-smoking police, with 40 in Westminster alone.

Two approaches

Ian Gray, policy officer for the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health and chief trainer for the government course, said he expected most councils would take a "softly, softly approach" at first.

"But there will be some occasions where action has to be taken and I am sure the compliance officers will not shy away from that," he added.

"These officers do not have to identify themselves when they go into premises and they can even film and photograph people to gather evidence although this may not be appropriate in many cases.

"There will be two ways of doing this, either staff can go in and identify themselves to the landlord, but they don't have to."

In Nottingham, there will be about 30 officers patrolling the city, composed of new staff and existing environmental health officers.

But the council is also exploring the possibility of getting street wardens, who currently aid the local police force, to help ensure the ban is effectively enforced.

Steve Dowling, director of environment and public protection at Nottingham City Council, said: "We have about 100 wardens and they could keep an eye on whether people are smoking in pubs as they go about their other duties.

"But it is not just about pubs and restaurants.

"We will also be looking at the likes of car garages and shops are complying as well."

'A sledgehammer'

In Liverpool, there will be a core team of about 20 to 25 staff keeping an eye on public places, although in the first few days after the start of the ban the council is planning to do a mass patrol of the city with 200 staff.

Liverpool City Council official Andy Hull said: "We want to make our presence felt from the start, and while we will probably just issue warnings on the first day, we won't be afraid of making an example of people or businesses if they try to make a stand."

And across Wales, where the smoking ban comes into force in April, 500 officers will be carrying out inspections after councils received just under £3m.

But Simon Clark, director of smokers' lobby group Forest, said: "The idea of getting public officials to snoop on people is distasteful and disproportionate.

"It is like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Smokers will abide by the law so it will be a complete waste of public money."

And a spokesman for the British Beer and Pub Association added the approach was too "heavy-handed and elaborate", especially when the experience in Scotland, which has already introduced a ban, is considered.

"In Scotland, there have been just 11 fixed penalty notices issued to premises in the last 10 months, with many councils having issued none at all."
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Keltoi
02-15-2007, 09:08 PM
I don't know, as much as I'm personally against smoking, these laws just bother me. It is becoming a similar situation here in the States. Just seems way too intrusive...but then again, so are drug laws and the like.
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England
02-15-2007, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I don't know, as much as I'm personally against smoking, these laws just bother me. It is becoming a similar situation here in the States. Just seems way too intrusive...but then again, so are drug laws and the like.
I'm all for it. If I had my way I'd ban smoking in the streets and in the homes. I'd prosecute anyone that smuggled a cigarette to these shores. They're nasty, dangerous and even affects non-smokers.
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Sabbir_1
02-15-2007, 09:13 PM
Waste of time.. they can use that time and traing to stop criminals, drug dealers.. stupid coppers.. wasting our tax money...

It aint gonan stop people from smoking in public places, they'll still carry on , this law wont make a difference.. they cant fine everyone..

They will have the power to enter premises undercover, allowing them to sit among drinkers, and will even be able to photograph and film people.
LOL.. fools..
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Keltoi
02-15-2007, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
I'm all for it. If I had my way I'd ban smoking in the streets and in the homes. I'd prosecute anyone that smuggled a cigarette to these shores. They're nasty, dangerous and even affects non-smokers.
Would you say the same for booze?
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j4763
02-15-2007, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
I'm all for it. If I had my way I'd ban smoking in the streets and in the homes. I'd prosecute anyone that smuggled a cigarette to these shores. They're nasty, dangerous and even affects non-smokers.
Alcohol should be banned to then, its dangerous and effects others too, just look at how many crimes are committed when intoxicated.

But i wouldn't want that! The government would lose so much money if everybody quit as fags (cigarettes not gays :okay: ) and would have to increase the tax on something else to get the money back.
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England
02-15-2007, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by khalil27
Waste of time.. they can use that time and traing to stop criminals, drug dealers.. stupid coppers.. wasting our tax money...
It's not the police that will be policing them. It's the council staff that are going under cover and imposing fines.

format_quote Originally Posted by khalil27
It aint gonan stop people from smoking in public places, they'll still carry on , this law wont make a difference.. they cant fine everyone..



LOL.. fools..
They could fine as many people as they want, afterall it's a good reason to get extra cash to put in the community. It will make a difference because people will be aware and will be scared of having to pay £2,500 for not enforcing the ban. If you knew there were alot of these people going around checking everything would you risk having to pay £2,500 or would you go "smoke away, I can afford it."

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Would you say the same for booze?
No :D It doesn't cause any harm to non-drinkers nor can babies and children inhale it into their lungs.
Besides beer has been proven to reduce your chances of strokes, heart and vascular disease. Alcohol has also been attributed of its ability to increase the amount of good cholesterol (HDL) into the bloodstream as well as help to decrease blood clots. As a conditioner too, beer has excellent results on adding up to the shine of your hair. As it contains vitamin B6, which prevents the build-up of amino acid called homocysteine that has been linked to heart disease, you're sure to have a healthy hair too.


* beer is fat-free and cholesterol free?
* Beer has a relaxing effect on the body thereby reducing stress.
* It can help you sleep better
* It helps prevent heart disease and improves the blood circulation
* It has proven to have positive effects on elderly people. It helps to promote blood vessel dilation, sleep, and urination.
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England
02-15-2007, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
Alcohol should be banned to then, its dangerous and effects others too, just look at how many crimes are committed when intoxicated.

But i wouldn't want that! The government would lose so much money if everybody quit as fags (cigarettes not gays :okay: ) and would have to increase the tax on something else to get the money back.
(Previous response)

If we can afford to go to war in Iraq for no reason at all but "give Iraqis a better life" then I'm sure we'd cope without these fags.
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j4763
02-15-2007, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
It's not the police that will be policing them. It's the council staff that are going under cover and imposing fines.



They could fine as many people as they want, afterall it's a good reason to get extra cash to put in the community. It will make a difference because people will be aware and will be scared of having to pay £2,500 for not enforcing the ban. If you knew there were alot of these people going around checking everything would you risk having to pay £2,500 or would you go "smoke away, I can afford it."
Theres no way people are going to fear council staff, they have little or no power so will need to be with the police when doing there rounds.
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Muezzin
02-15-2007, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
(Previous response)

If we can afford to go to war in Iraq for no reason at all but "give Iraqis a better life" then I'm sure we'd cope without these fags.
Just to clarify for our non-British members (and to avoid a deluge of paperwork), the word in this context means 'cigarettes'.
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England
02-15-2007, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
Theres no way people are going to fear council staff, they have little or no power so will need to be with the police when doing there rounds.
The council staff have the power to impose these fines! They have the power to close down businesses. They have enough power and you watch the change for yourself. They will be too scared to get caught.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Just to clarify for our non-British members (and to avoid a deluge of paperwork), the word in this context means 'cigarettes'.
:giggling: That's sounds extremely offensive if you were to get that wrong.
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Snowflake
02-15-2007, 09:45 PM
=England;657391]

No :D It doesn't cause any harm to non-drinkers nor can babies and children inhale it into their lungs.
ahh but it does - when they kill people drink driving or kill them in a drunken rage

this includes......
* It can help you sleep better
alchohol poisoning.. which can make you go to sleep forever

* It helps prevent heart disease and improves the blood circulation
gives other people heart attacks when drunken yobs are let loose on the streets :D

cigs & alchohol should be banned -however this latest scheme is a waste of money
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j4763
02-15-2007, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
ahh but it does - when they kill people drink driving or kill them in a drunken rage

this includes......

alchohol poisoning.. which can make you go to sleep forever

gives other people heart attacks when drunken yobs are let loose on the streets :D

cigs & alchohol should be banned -however this latest scheme is a waste of money
Very true, in fact i feel smoking cannabis cause less harm to others than drink. Its not like your going get a load of stoned chavs wanting to fight, i think they'd rather just sit there an chill. And we all no what a bunch of drunk chavs get upto!
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England
02-15-2007, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
ahh but it does - when they kill people drink driving or kill them in a drunken rage

this includes......

alchohol poisoning.. which can make you go to sleep forever

gives other people heart attacks when drunken yobs are let loose on the streets :D

cigs & alchohol should be banned -however this latest scheme is a waste of money
I drink but I don't kill people, drink or drive or kill anyone in a drunken rage, nor have my mates or anyone I know. I don't even get into fights. The actions of people that do that is down to the individual. With cigarettes it is EVERYONE that smokes it that is causing other people harm. There are people that follow Islam that kill innocent men, women, children, blow themselves up to kill anyone they can but that again is down to the individual so that along with the "drinkers that kill" as you say is irrelevant to the subject of smoking.
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root
02-15-2007, 09:53 PM
In Scotland we already have the smoking ban and life is much better for it (and I am a smoker)

On the question of alcohol, why did God create alcohol if it is so bad eh?
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England
02-15-2007, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
In Scotland we already have the smoking ban and life is much better for it (and I am a smoker)

On the question of alcohol, why did God create alcohol if it is so bad eh?
There are health benefits to alcohol as I stated above. The main benefit is that it reduces heart disease, it's been proven.
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Umar001
02-15-2007, 09:59 PM
Having been watchin' the likes of David Icke and Alex Jones I cant help but wonder if this is strange I mean "They will have the power to enter premises undercover, allowing them to sit among drinkers, and will even be able to photograph and film people."

Lol, film people?? Anyhow I can understand the reason behind it but still it sounds dodgy.

I think higher fines should be put forth for the owners of bars and so on if they dont display signs, 200 squid? More like 2,000.

And the fines should be much more, I remember a police man said to me and my friends tht if you litter you can get fined, even thoug my friend only dropped a straw rapper, but I cant imagine how many fines the'd be for smokers dropping cigarette buts.

Man I hope this law is inforced for one!
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j4763
02-15-2007, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
I drink but I don't kill people, drink or drive or kill anyone in a drunken rage, nor have my mates or anyone I know. I don't even get into fights. The actions of people that do that is down to the individual. With cigarettes it is EVERYONE that smokes it that is causing other people harm. There are people that follow Islam that kill innocent men, women, children, blow themselves up to kill anyone they can but that again is down to the individual so that along with the "drinkers that kill" as you say is irrelevant to the subject of smoking.
Might as well ban cars too then, there fumes aren't much good for us either!
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England
02-15-2007, 10:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
Might as well ban cars too then, there fumes aren't much good for us either!
Something must be done about it yes and Britain is doing as much as they can to sort it. We must find something environmentally friendly. If the electric cars that can reach 100mph are any good then our cars that cause this pollution should be banned and replaced with these.

But banning them now would cause huge problems. Cars are an important part of life. Fags are not important. In fact there is no reason whatsoever for people to smoke.
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Keltoi
02-15-2007, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Something must be done about it yes and Britain is doing as much as they can to sort it. We must find something environmentally friendly. If the electric cars that can reach 100mph are any good then our cars that cause this pollution should be banned and replaced with these.

But banning them now would cause huge problems. Cars are an important part of life. Fags are not important. In fact there is no reason whatsoever for people to smoke.
Actually there is a reason, they enjoy it. Unless it is made illegal as a substance, they have every right to smoke if they so wish it. I don't want Big Brother telling me what vices I can have and can't have. If the popular vote of the people expresses their wish for cigarretes to be illegal, that is fine.
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England
02-15-2007, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Actually there is a reason, they enjoy it. Unless it is made illegal as a substance, they have every right to smoke if they so wish it. I don't want Big Brother telling me what vices I can have and can't have. If the popular vote of the people expresses their wish for cigarretes to be illegal, that is fine.
I would support a TOTAL ban. The fact that they enjoy it isn't a good reason at all. They enjoy it whilst shoving the fumes down other people's lungs too. They know they're harming other people but they don't care. We enjoy life.
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Keltoi
02-15-2007, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
I would support a TOTAL ban. The fact that they enjoy it isn't a good reason at all. They enjoy it whilst shoving the fumes down other people's lungs too. They know they're harming other people but they don't care. We enjoy life.
This just goes to our different understandings about what we want from government. If a community wants to bad smoking in public, they can do so. However, I don't want the federal government telling me what I can or can't do in the context of vice. I don't know about the U.K, but here in the states they put a fairly heavy tax on cigarrettes. It seems hypocritical to allow people to by them and give money to the government but put a ban on public use.
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England
02-15-2007, 10:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
This just goes to our different understandings about what we want from government. If a community wants to bad smoking in public, they can do so. However, I don't want the federal government telling me what I can or can't do in the context of vice. I don't know about the U.K, but here in the states they put a fairly heavy tax on cigarrettes. It seems hypocritical to allow people to by them and give money to the government but put a ban on public use.
Hypocritical? They haven't banned smoking on the streets or in peoples' own homes. They've banned it in public places where it can cause harm to other people. Does it sound hypocritical to allow people to purchase alcohol with tax which ends up in the government's hands yet bans them from drinking it on the streets, shopping centres, work places etc?
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Keltoi
02-15-2007, 11:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Hypocritical? They haven't banned smoking on the streets or in peoples' own homes. They've banned it in public places where it can cause harm to other people. Does it sound hypocritical to allow people to purchase alcohol with tax which ends up in the government's hands yet bans them from drinking it on the streets, shopping centres, work places etc?
Alcohol impairs one's judgement and performance. Slightly different scenario, but I understand your point. Denver, Colorado passed a smoking ban that includes people on the street, so perhaps I was thinking of a different situtation. However, I'm still uncomfortable with my federal government dictating vice to people. I know anti-smoking actions are popular right now, but I think people need to keep in mind what other areas of life this will allow the federal government to dictate to us.
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