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cali dude
02-16-2007, 07:01 PM
This thread is created to separate what started in topic regarding 'no gender equality in Islam'.

The main difference between a spiritually wise and a religious people is that a spiritual person understands why s/he following certain path and her/his action in daily life are based upon his proper understanding of righteousness, but a religious person, on the other hand, is the one who blindly follows her/his perception of a religion.

Now the question arises: Is one better than the other?

Definitely spirituality is better than religion as you can see religion causes a lot of conflicts among people. If all these religious people, who are fighting today, were spiritually wise, there wouldn't be any religious fights in the world.

Let's take examples of homosexuality and polygamy. A spiritual person would understand that even though s/he may not agree with these, the other people have right to do so as long as these actions of other people do not harm someone else in any way. But a religious person would use religion as an excuse to harm a homosexual person and to justify polygamy, although s/he doesn't even understand why a religion is saying homosexuality is wrong and polygamy is right.
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czgibson
02-16-2007, 07:09 PM
Greetings,

'Spiritual' is a word I've never understood - I simply have no idea what it refers to. I am tolerant of homosexuals and polygamy amongst consenting adults - does that make me a spiritual person?

In any case, I think that being tolerant of other people's differences has to be better than hating them because someone told you to.

Peace
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cali dude
02-16-2007, 07:14 PM
Spirituality is God given wisdom from within that can never go wrong...
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cali dude
02-16-2007, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

'I am tolerant of homosexuals and polygamy amongst consenting adults - does that make me a spiritual person?

Peace
You are much more spiritual than a religious person who uses religion to hate people who against his/her beliefs.
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*charisma*
02-16-2007, 07:38 PM
I don't get the idea of spirituality either. If you're talking about having a consience, then I get you. If you don't, then sorry don't know what you're on about.

But a religious person would use religion as an excuse to harm a homosexual person and to justify polygamy, although s/he doesn't even understand why a religion is saying homosexuality is wrong and polygamy is right.
Hmmmm...is homosexuality a mental illness or a choice? I always wonder that.

Anyways, we have the freedom to hate, its whether we act upon that hate that really matters right? Religion justifying hate? we can do that without religion cant we?

Secondly, with your concern of believers not knowing "why" a certain issue has guidelines, wouldn't they be following a religion blindly?
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Trumble
02-16-2007, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
The main difference between a spiritually wise and a religious people is that a spiritual person understands why s/he following certain path and her/his action in daily life are based upon his proper understanding of righteousness, but a religious person, on the other hand, is the one who blindly follows her/his perception of a religion.

Now the question arises: Is one better than the other?
You have rather loaded your first statement. Why "spiritually wise" but not "religiously wise"? You have both wise and rather less wise in both groups, and the spiritually stupid can go just as destructively astray as the religiously stupid. The only thing in their favour is that damage is usually just limited to themselves.

'Spiritual' (what does it actually mean?) to me is rather less relevant than mysticism. Mysticism is generally an attempt to direct experience ultimate reality in some way and all the great religions have long mystic traditions, even if Christianity and (particularly) Islam has chosen to reject them in favour of a more dogmatic approach. I never could understand why, surely direct experience of God is far more desirable than faith based following rules in a book, regardless of where you think that book came from. I think it has more to do came out top in the internal in-fighting than any religious justifcation.


Originally Posted by *charisma*
Hmmmm...is homosexuality a mental illness or a choice? I always wonder that.
Neither, any more than heterosexuality is. Practicising it sexually is a choice in both cases.
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wilberhum
02-16-2007, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Spirituality is God given wisdom from within that can never go wrong...
Got told Bush to invaid Iran. So Bush was right?
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Got told Bush to invaid Iran. So Bush was right?
I think you mean God told Bush to invade Iraq...which of course isn't what he said, but that is a different issue. I don't know the correct definition of spirituality in this context, but there is a definite difference between traditional religious institutions and spirituality. In other words, one doesn't need an organized religious institution to find God, in my opinion.
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cali dude
02-17-2007, 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
Anyways, we have the freedom to hate, its whether we act upon that hate that really matters right? Religion justifying hate? we can do that without religion cant we?
Well you have freedom to hate but remember since God doesn't hate, you never be close to God by hating...
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Abdul Fattah
02-17-2007, 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
This thread is created to separate what started in topic regarding 'no gender equality in Islam'.

The main difference between a spiritually wise and a religious people is that a spiritual person understands why s/he following certain path and her/his action in daily life are based upon his proper understanding of righteousness, but a religious person, on the other hand, is the one who blindly follows her/his perception of a religion.
What if a person investigates, then comes to the conclusion Islam is right and decides to follow it? I myself went trough that road. I was raised by a catholic mother and an atheist father and for very long I considered myself an atheist. Two years ago I reverted to Islam, not out of blind following, but because I recognise it as the truth. And Islam does encourage everyone to seek knowledge and to not do things only because you're told to do so but to do them because you want to. So I don't see why you would associate blind following with Religion. I can show you just as much spiritual people who 're in new age stuff and the likes and who are just as those blind followers you speak off.


Definitely spirituality is better than religion as you can see religion causes a lot of conflicts among people. If all these religious people, who are fighting today, were spiritually wise, there wouldn't be any religious fights in the world.
If Iraqi's were spiritually wise america wouldn't have invaded them for oil? If Palestinians were spiritually wise the state of Israel wouldn't oppress them? If Jews were spiritually wise hitler wouldn't have gassed them? If vietnamese would have been spiritually wise america wouldn't have invaded their country? I could go on like this for a while all the way back to the stone age, but I geuss you get my point.

Let's take examples of homosexuality and polygamy. A spiritual person would understand that even though s/he may not agree with these, the other people have right to do so as long as these actions of other people do not harm someone else in any way.
Lets take alcohol for example, an alcoholic might claim he's spiritually wise and argue it is his right to abuse his body by subjecting it to poison as he sees fit. But that doesn't change the fact that it's wrong, and that both the alcoholic as his surroundings are better of if he'd quit.

But a religious person would use religion as an excuse to harm a homosexual person and to justify polygamy,
No religious person in his right mind "wishes to harm". Do you really think there's a hidden agenda here? Are you really that short visioned to think people do that only because they want to do that? Some malevolent desire? Because it makes them feel good? NO people forbid homosexuality because they believe it is wrong. And a good muslim invites others to do righteous deeds and discourages others to commit sins. If we preach we only try to help with the best intentions. We do not wish to destroy but rather to construct.

I don't see how you would judge a person who tries to help as being worse then a person who doesn't care and thinks: "do whatever you want to do".
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*charisma*
02-17-2007, 07:10 AM
Well you have freedom to hate but remember since God doesn't hate, you never be close to God by hating...
What if I hate those that hate God (subhana wa ta'ala)? Then how can I not be closer to God..??
If there are those that hate God, reject God, or worship other than God, do you think God will love them as much as those that worship Him alone and love Him?
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
The main difference between a spiritually wise and a religious people is that a spiritual person understands why s/he following certain path and her/his action in daily life are based upon his proper understanding of righteousness, but a religious person, on the other hand, is the one who blindly follows her/his perception of a religion.
Why are you assuming that a religious person is a blind follower?

A proper understanding of righteousness can not come expect with a proper understand of ones religion (i.e. Islam, I can't talk for other faiths here). Otherwise the person is following conjecture.

As for your comments on homosexuality and polygamy, AFTER a person has used his understanding, wisdom, intelligence and logic to establish that Islam is the true religion revealed by God, then he will follow those parts of the religion, even though they don't make sense, because it has already been established that it is the command of God, and no human can challenge the command of God.

Originally Posted by cali dude
Spirituality is God given wisdom from within that can never go wrong...
And how are we meant to know when we are using this 'God-given' wisdom? Surely a person who uses this 'God given' wisdom to reject the command of God isn't a very righteous person?
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
As for your comments on homosexuality and polygamy, AFTER a person has used his understanding, wisdom, intelligence and logic to establish that Islam is the true religion revealed by God, then he will follow those parts of the religion, even though they don't make sense, because it has already been established that it is the command of God, and no human can challenge the command of God.
What about those that have used intelligence and logic and concluded that islam is not the true religion, and was not revealed by God, yet these things still seem wrong to many people, there must be something else that makes us feel that something is wrong, no?
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cali dude
02-17-2007, 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Why are you assuming that a religious person is a blind follower?
Well this is true. One only feels the need to follow a religious because s/he doesn't have enough logic of her/his own. Lack of forces her/him to follow a religion blindly. They often do things just because religion says so and they often admit so as well.

Originally Posted by Malaikah
As for your comments on homosexuality and polygamy, AFTER a person has used his understanding, wisdom, intelligence and logic to establish that Islam is the true religion revealed by God, then he will follow those parts of the religion, even though they don't make sense, because it has already been established that it is the command of God, and no human can challenge the command of God.
If someone had ability to see for sure what's God's word and what's not, don't you think that person would be equivalent to a prophet.

Originally Posted by Malaikah
And how are we meant to know when we are using this 'God-given' wisdom? Surely a person who uses this 'God given' wisdom to reject the command of God isn't a very righteous person?
You will know if you have the 'God-given' wisdom and logic will determine if someone is being honest about the wisdom...
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lyesh
02-17-2007, 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
"Definitely spirituality is better than religion as you can see religion causes a lot of conflicts among people. If all these religious people, who are fighting today, were spiritually wise, there wouldn't be any religious fights in the world."


well.. yeah, there wont be religous fights then. But one thing is for sure! the thoughts of the people would vary! some people would want to kill, others, would want to rob, .... etc. and there will be no one able to decide the good and bad, because there will be no law! everyone following there own spiritual law... and no two persons law will be the same! :uuh: erm... dont you thinkg this will lead to more fights :?
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cali dude
02-17-2007, 08:57 AM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
What if I hate those that hate God (subhana wa ta'ala)? Then how can I not be closer to God..??
If there are those that hate God, reject God, or worship other than God, do you think God will love them as much as those that worship Him alone and love Him?
Someone's being homosexual doesn't mean that s/he hates God. I really don't know how someone could hate God other than that some people might hate God blaming God for something they don't like in life. But how does that have anything to do with homosexuality?

Only God knows whom he loves. But one thing for sure, He doesn't hate...
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 09:00 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Only God knows whom he loves. But one thing for sure, He doesn't hate...
Okay, firstly, God does hate, especially acts of evil. And homosexuality happens to be an act that He hates.

Now, I am also sure that God does not like evil people, but let me get back to you on that one...
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cali dude
02-17-2007, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by lyesh
well.. yeah, there wont be religous fights then. But one thing is for sure! the thoughts of the people would vary! some people would want to kill, others, would want to rob, .... etc. and there will be no one able to decide the good and bad, because there will be no law! everyone following there own spiritual law... and no two persons law will be the same! :uuh: erm... dont you thinkg this will lead to more fights :?
Spiritually wise people wouldn't be interfering with other people's lives. So, there wouldn't be any conflicts. But there would be laws to punish those who interferred with other people's lives...
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cali dude
02-17-2007, 09:03 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Okay, firstly, God does hate, especially acts of evil. And homosexuality happens to be an act that He hates.

Now, I am also sure that God does not like evil people, but let me get back to you on that one...
Does your religion believe that God created everything, including all people? If so, then God must be familiar with all kind of people.
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lyesh
02-17-2007, 09:06 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Spiritually wise people wouldn't be interfering with other people's lives. So, there wouldn't be any conflicts. But there would be laws to punish those who interferred with other people's lives...
but who decides those laws?
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cali dude
02-17-2007, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by lyesh
but who decides those laws?
Spiritually wise people...
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Okay, firstly, God does hate
Proof is required of such a statement. How do you know this of God?
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Well this is true. One only feels the need to follow a religious because s/he doesn't have enough logic of her/his own.
But religious people recognise that their religion is the word of God, which is why they place it's ruling above their own thoughts, because they recognise it to be from God and are not so arrogant to think themselves better than God.

They often do things just because religion says so and they often admit so as well.
As I said before, that is because they believe that it is God who commanded them to do that, and they are not so arrogant as to believe themselves wiser than God.

If someone had ability to see for sure what's God's word and what's not, don't you think that person would be equivalent to a prophet.
No, a Prophet is someone who was sent by God and has certainty that what he is teaching is from God because God told Him so. God gives his prophets signs which the people may us to recognise that he is sent by God. He also gave us a 'fitrah'- which is like a natural inclination, so we have a natural bias towards recognising the truth, specifically the oneness of God.

You will know if you have the 'God-given' wisdom and logic will determine if someone is being honest about the wisdom...
I'm not so sure I understand what you mean here, and also, how can you believe in God given wisdom if you didn't learn this from a religion? Because only God can teach us something like that.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
What about those that have used intelligence and logic and concluded that islam is not the true religion, and was not revealed by God,
I do not think true intelligence can lead on away from Islam. Allah mentions in the Quran that the people of hell fire will say:

And they will say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not have been among the dwellers of the blazing Fire!"
[67:10]

yet these things still seem wrong to many people, there must be something else that makes us feel that something is wrong, no?
That can be for many reasons. Environment and culture play a part, and so does the natural inclination in man (which God has placed in us) to recognise good from evil.
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
I do not think true intelligence can lead on away from Islam. Allah mentions in the Quran that the people of hell fire will say:
Well that's where I think you have gone wrong, as I don't believe the Quran to be spoken from God.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Proof is required of such a statement. How do you know this of God?
Thanks, not only did I find you proof, also found the proof that God hates people too.

"Certainly He (Allah) likes not the extravagant."
(Qur'an: Translation of the meaning, 7:31)

Allah said (in a hadith, not Quran):

I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6502.

And:

The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "When Allah Almighty loves a slave, He calls out to Jibril, 'Allah Almighty loves so-and-so, so love him!' and Jibril loves him. Then a call goes out among the people of heaven, ''Allah Almighty loves so-and-so, so love him!' and the people of heaven love him. Then acceptance is placed in the earth for him. When He hates a slave, He calls out to Jibril, 'Allah Almighty hates so-and-so, so hate him!' and Jibril hates him. Then a call goes out among the people of heaven, ''Allah Almighty hates so-and-so, so hate him!' and the people of heaven hate him. Then hatred is placed in the earth for him."

Sahih Muslim

Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Well that's where I think you have gone wrong, as I don't believe the Quran to be spoken from God.
You have your opinion, I have mine.
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Thanks, not only did I find you proof, also found the proof that God hates people too.

"Certainly He (Allah) likes not the extravagant."
(Qur'an: Translation of the meaning, 7:31)

Allah said (in a hadith, not Quran):

I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6502.

And:

The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "When Allah Almighty loves a slave, He calls out to Jibril, 'Allah Almighty loves so-and-so, so love him!' and Jibril loves him. Then a call goes out among the people of heaven, ''Allah Almighty loves so-and-so, so love him!' and the people of heaven love him. Then acceptance is placed in the earth for him. When He hates a slave, He calls out to Jibril, 'Allah Almighty hates so-and-so, so hate him!' and Jibril hates him. Then a call goes out among the people of heaven, ''Allah Almighty hates so-and-so, so hate him!' and the people of heaven hate him. Then hatred is placed in the earth for him."

Sahih Muslim
Unfortunately, this is not proof for me.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 09:23 AM
Then perhaps we should be discussing why it is not proof for you, instead of wasting time discussing secondary aspects of the religion?
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Then perhaps we should be discussing why it is not proof for you, instead of wasting time discussing secondary aspects of the religion?
Simple, the Quran was not written by God.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 09:37 AM
Don't you think you should take this to another thread? :? Perhaps my thread about prophet Muhammad pbuh?
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Snowflake
02-17-2007, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Spiritually wise people wouldn't be interfering with other people's lives. So, there wouldn't be any conflicts. But there would be laws to punish those who interferred with other people's lives...
what would a spiritually wise person do if his country was being attacked? Sit there and meditate? :rolleyes:
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Don't you think you should take this to another thread? :? Perhaps my thread about prophet Muhammad pbuh?
You asked the question in this thread. It is appropriate to answer the question where it was asked.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 10:03 AM
My point was that it should be the main discussion in and of itself.
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SilentObserver
02-17-2007, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
My point was that it should be the main discussion in and of itself.
My point is that you asked the question, I answered.
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Pygoscelis
02-17-2007, 01:29 PM
I enjoy the feeling I get when I take my annual canoe trip. I float out in my canoe, surrounded by nothing but the wilderness. No phones ringing, no other human beings within kilometres of me. I listen to nature. I get filled with a sense that I can not describe.

I see nothing whatsoever supernatural in this.

Can this qualify as Spiritulity?
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I enjoy the feeling I get when I take my annual canoe trip. I float out in my canoe, surrounded by nothing but the wilderness. No phones ringing, no other human beings within kilometres of me. I listen to nature. I get filled with a sense that I can not describe.

I see nothing whatsoever supernatural in this.

Can this qualify as Spiritulity?
lol...you sound like a Romantic. Not in the flowers and candy sense, I mean the Romantic era literature. The "Oh Wow! a Cow!" view of nature. Couldn't resist the connection since I'm reading some old Romantic literature.
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Pygoscelis
02-17-2007, 05:49 PM
A cow you say? How Utterly fascinating.
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lyesh
02-18-2007, 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Spiritually wise people...
How are we suppossed to know them? and even if we do, Then their would be fights because if one person is considered spiritually wise by a group of people the others might consider someone else as spiritually wise! and the both spiritually wise people might not agree with each others laws!
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cali dude
02-18-2007, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
what would a spiritually wise person do if his country was being attacked? Sit there and meditate? :rolleyes:
Although a religiously wise person know that s/he shouldn't interfere with other people's lives, s/he for sure also knows that nobody should interfere with her/his life...
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cali dude
02-18-2007, 03:58 PM
Corrrection: the above statement should read, "Although a spiritually wise person know that s/he shouldn't interfere with other people's lives, s/he for sure also knows that nobody should interfere with her/his life."
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cali dude
02-18-2007, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by lyesh
How are we suppossed to know them? and even if we do, Then their would be fights because if one person is considered spiritually wise by a group of people the others might consider someone else as spiritually wise! and the both spiritually wise people might not agree with each others laws!
Very good question...

Unfortunately, most people don't recognize the spiritually wise people, but with time, it seems like that most democratic/civilized countries are slowly realizing this. But also there is an external force (religious fanatics) that keeps creeping in trying to destroy it all.
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cali dude
02-18-2007, 04:33 PM
Something to think about though. Some of the religious people think that God hates. This is pretty scary. Those people who think God hates might end up doing the same themselves thinking that they are pleasing God.
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- Qatada -
02-18-2007, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Something to think about though. Some of the religious people think that God hates. This is pretty scary. Those people who think God hates might end up doing the same themselves thinking that they are pleasing God.

So God creates us, there's evil on the earth [as a trial] and God doesn't dislike that evil? If God just 'loved' every single action the creation did, then there's no wrong? Which mean's the creation can do as much corruption as it wants without fearing punishment of any sort?
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cali dude
02-18-2007, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
So God creates us, there's evil on the earth [as a trial] and God doesn't dislike that evil? If God just 'loved' every single action the creation did, then there's no wrong? Which mean's the creation can do as much corruption as it wants without fearing punishment of any sort?
I think I said this on other page as well. The way it makes sense to me is that there is something that can be called law of nature in place. Every action has certain outcome. Every action that has positive outcome leads us in positive direction and every action that has negative outcome leads in negative direction. The positive and negative outcomes of our action affect our personalities. For example, having bitter nature is negative as it is but expressing our bitterness towards someone further negatively affect our personalities.

More negative in our personalities we have, farther from God we are because God is all positive. There is nothing negative about God.

So if you like you can consider distance from God as punishment :) But if you hate someone thinking that s/he is doing something negative, you are only hurting yourself first as it affects your own personality negatively and widening the distance from God.
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- Qatada -
02-18-2007, 05:17 PM
Hey cali. :)


Thanks, for your opinion.


According to islaam, we give the person advice in a kind way so they understand. This is shown through many examples in the lives of the prophets, and in hadith where its mentioned that kindness adorns something whereas when its removed it disgraces it.


Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate! [Qur'an 41:34]

We believe that God is the All-Just, so anyone who does bad without turning back to God in sincere repentance will be punished for the evil that they did. The same way those who do good to please God Alone will be rewarded for the good they did. This shows that God is the All-Just.

If God never punished the one's who do bad and harm others, it wouldn't be fair. The same way if God never rewarded the one's who do good for His sake, it wouldn't be fair either.


We believe that God only does what befit's His Majesty so He isn't unjust to His servants, He is only punishing them for the evil that they do, or rewarding them for the good that they do for His sake. Which mean's that God isn't evil, rather we either get rewarded or punished because of our own actions. :)



Regards.
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cali dude
02-18-2007, 05:26 PM
Yes there could be problem when you start acting God. It makes you responsible for doing something you are not made to, thus doing bad yourself and deserving punishment yourself.
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Abdul Fattah
02-18-2007, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Although a religiously wise person know that s/he shouldn't interfere with other people's lives, s/he for sure also knows that nobody should interfere with her/his life...
Couldn't that under some circumstance be considered selfish, or at least asocial and unempathic?
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Snowflake
02-19-2007, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Corrrection: the above statement should read, "Although a spiritually wise person know that s/he shouldn't interfere with other people's lives, s/he for sure also knows that nobody should interfere with her/his life."
why that's not any kind of answer is it.. knowing something doesn't prevent it from happening... so what should they do if they/their family/country are being harrassed, attacked etc etc...?
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cali dude
02-19-2007, 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
why that's not any kind of answer is it.. knowing something doesn't prevent it from happening... so what should they do if they/their family/country are being harrassed, attacked etc etc...?
Once we know it we will take actions to prevent it. I thought you would understand from my previous post :)
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lyesh
02-19-2007, 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Very good question...

Unfortunately, most people don't recognize the spiritually wise people, but with time, it seems like that most democratic/civilized countries are slowly realizing this. But also there is an external force (religious fanatics) that keeps creeping in trying to destroy it all.
that's the point! many people dont recognize them... and even if they are there because we are human we all dont agree upon the same thing! and there is never going to be a same law within us if we make them.
think about this... one of the spiritual law makers die... other one comes up... makes his own laws... some people dislike it... others like it... leads to fights!
but if we obey the laws which was given by our creator then nobody who truly believes in him could say that the the creator has made the laws wrong!
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cali dude
02-19-2007, 05:28 AM
The difference here though is that man-made laws can be amended but religious laws become impossible to change even if they are inhumane...
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lyesh
02-19-2007, 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
The difference here though is that man-made laws can be amended but religious laws become impossible to change even if they are inhumane...
that makes the laws fit! otherwise you never know how this world would be today! and even if some people thinks that the laws are inhumane, God knows best what suits us! And laws are to be done because of us human behaviour! how can we beleive that the human who makes these crimes makes their own laws and its better :uuh:

*btw im not saying that ur referring to Islamic laws, but if u are reffering to us, true muslims believe 100% that the laws Allah made for us are the best for human!*
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cali dude
02-19-2007, 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by lyesh
that makes the laws fit! otherwise you never know how this world would be today! and even if some people thinks that the laws are inhumane, God knows best what suits us! And laws are to be done because of us human behaviour! how can we beleive that the human who makes these crimes makes their own laws and its better :uuh:

*btw im not saying that ur referring to Islamic laws, but if u are reffering to us, true muslims believe 100% that the laws Allah made for us are the best for human!*
first of all, beliefs are just that, beliefs, not facts...

a belief can't be proven to be true...

can you prove that leaving islam is wrong, then why death sentence for someone who does?

i hope the answer isn't prophet said so...

i expect you to prove it...
Reply

cali dude
02-19-2007, 06:34 AM
Originally Posted by lyesh
that makes the laws fit! otherwise you never know how this world would be today! and even if some people thinks that the laws are inhumane, God knows best what suits us! And laws are to be done because of us human behaviour! how can we beleive that the human who makes these crimes makes their own laws and its better :uuh:
Obviously, it's not the criminals who make law. it the civilized people who value humanity make the law...
Reply

lyesh
02-19-2007, 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
first of all, beliefs are just that, beliefs, not facts...

a belief can't be proven to be true...

can you prove that leaving islam is wrong, then why death sentence for someone who does?

i hope the answer isn't prophet said so...

i expect you to prove it...
A person enters Islam by his/ her own will! We muslims never force people to our religion :) While he/ she enters it he/ she should believe everything about Islam. And on top of all to believe in Allah and that He's the most Knowledgeble! The simple human mind can never go beyond Allah's Wisdom.
The person who enters and leaves it knows this very well that Allah knows everything! and who knows.. that person's punishment at hell fire might be even smaller! God knows everything better than us!!!!
Reply

lyesh
02-19-2007, 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Obviously, it's not the criminals who make law. it the civilized people who value humanity make the law...
no human is sinless! even this person who value humanity might do things against his own made laws! and he even might interfere or place damage in someone else's life!
Reply

Snowflake
02-19-2007, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Once we know it we will take actions to prevent it. I thought you would understand from my previous post :)
what kind of actions? Plz be specific. :-\
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cali dude
02-19-2007, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by lyesh
A person enters Islam by his/ her own will! We muslims never force people to our religion :) While he/ she enters it he/ she should believe everything about Islam. And on top of all to believe in Allah and that He's the most Knowledgeble! The simple human mind can never go beyond Allah's Wisdom.
The person who enters and leaves it knows this very well that Allah knows everything! and who knows.. that person's punishment at hell fire might be even smaller! God knows everything better than us!!!!
In other words, you couldn't prove that leaving Islam is wrong. It's simply your belief. Since God knows it all. He may very well be guiding the person leaving Islam. So nobody has right to kill him. In fact, the people who do kill him might be going against God's will and committing sins...
Reply

cali dude
02-19-2007, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
what kind of actions? Plz be specific. :-\
It depends on what the person does. The main objective should be to stop him/her from doing anything that's offensive. If the what they are doing is not so severe and can be resolved with talks or kindness, that should be the first thing to do. In civilized countries, there is law in place. So, you could take that route if the crime is severe enough. But if you have no other choice but to fight back, then you fight back.

But the main objective should be only to prevent that from doing it again, but not harm them or taking revenge against them...
Reply

cali dude
02-19-2007, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by lyesh
no human is sinless! even this person who value humanity might do things against his own made laws! and he even might interfere or place damage in someone else's life!
That would apply that even those religionists are not free of sins. You have to be sin free even to understand God's message. Claiming that you understand God's message is ego in itself and ego in itself is a sin. Then how come such a sinful person understand and implement God's law?
Reply

- Qatada -
02-19-2007, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
That would apply that even those religionists are not free of sins. You have to be sin free even to understand God's message. Claiming that you understand God's message is ego in itself and ego in itself is a sin. Then how come such a sinful person understand and implement God's law?

That's only according to your opinion. We know that the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) was sinless, and he applied the law of Allaah. The Messenger simply conveys the message so he doesn't say anything of his desire when conveying the message.


Anyway, all the statements you say are simply your own opinions, so by stating that ego is a sin, you're claiming that you understand God's message hence you have an ego, which means your sinful for that. So in reality, you don't have a right to create a thread like this to discuss these issues because you don't have a 'right' to explain what spirituality is.


(Just something to think about. :) )


Regards.
Reply

cali dude
02-19-2007, 05:02 PM
The difference here is that my understanding does not affect anybody else's life and those who think they have right to kill others do affect other people's life and kill them,which is really brutal...
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-19-2007, 05:07 PM
Well the whole world is killin each other and have been. its nothing new.
Reply

- Qatada -
02-19-2007, 05:09 PM
Everything you do in life, and everything that happens in your life will be affected by someone else. What is done by others may harm you as a result of that.

Like the example i used in another thread; if you got kids, their going to learn from their teachers, their teachers get their curriculum off the government, so if you don't agree with the idea of homosexuality, then your kids are being taught that its all good and theres nothing wrong with it.


Now i have a right to teach my 'kids' my understanding of morals, not the morals of the government which keep changing. Morals are morals, and they should be kept constant. It's only the media who decides what morals are, so if someone grows a beard - they shouldn't be looked at others as a terrorist, but thats what media does. Even though this guy might have been minding his own business. The same for a woman in niqaab, or even hijaab - the sisters in France are banned from wearing that at school! Now who's deciding that? Aren't they the one's who are forcing people to change their morals, even though it doesn't harm them in any way?


If we all remain quiet and leave morals to be altered, their going to be altered by someone somehow or another. So who is the one who decides them?
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Pygoscelis
02-19-2007, 05:18 PM
Should parents have the right to program their children with their individual moral code if it contrasts drastically with society at large? It is an interesting question and one that certainly falls on a spectrum.

At first glance, the answer that comes to your mind is probably "yes". They do have the right to teach their children their code and values. And with most parents, I'd agree.

But what of Jehovas Witnesses who teach their children not to accept blood transfusions (and perhaps die as a result)?

And what of the people claiming to be muslims who teach their children to hate Jews and engage in terrorist activity?

And what of the people who claimed to be Christians who taught their children that savages (natives or blacks, take your pick) are beneath them and witches are to be burned?

And what of people who call themselves CHristians today who teach their children that homosexuality is a mortal sin and that homosexuals are vile. Ponder the children of Fred Phelps. Oh how I feel for them, if they ever break free of the brainwashing and look back on it.

And what of relgious parents of all stripes who teach their children not to associate with people not of their faith?

As I said, it is an interesting quandry. Some of these teachings border on child abuse, but most are protected as rights of the parent.

I always feel sad when I see very young children so utterly brainwashed. I feel a little the same when I see fundy children so indoctrinated that they will likely never break free and think objectively about their belief system. Hit them young, before they develop any critical thinking skills, and they are usually gone for life.
Reply

- Qatada -
02-19-2007, 05:33 PM
That goes for anyone, they don't have to follow any religion to be like that. This can be the biases the parent gives the child from a young age, so the children today are brainwashed by the media to believe muslims are terrorists. Not just the children, but even adults.

So it's not just religion that's like this. But it's the world we live in.
Reply

cali dude
02-19-2007, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Well the whole world is killin each other and have been. its nothing new.
Just because people have been killing others, it doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-19-2007, 06:42 PM
Lol, i never said that. Your talking as if its never happened. Of course its brutal. Has us talking like this stopped anyone? Not really.
Reply

cali dude
02-19-2007, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Should parents have the right to program their children with their individual moral code if it contrasts drastically with society at large? It is an interesting question and one that certainly falls on a spectrum.

At first glance, the answer that comes to your mind is probably "yes". They do have the right to teach their children their code and values. And with most parents, I'd agree.

But what of Jehovas Witnesses who teach their children not to accept blood transfusions (and perhaps die as a result)?

And what of the people claiming to be muslims who teach their children to hate Jews and engage in terrorist activity?

And what of the people who claimed to be Christians who taught their children that savages (natives or blacks, take your pick) are beneath them and witches are to be burned?

And what of people who call themselves CHristians today who teach their children that homosexuality is a mortal sin and that homosexuals are vile. Ponder the children of Fred Phelps. Oh how I feel for them, if they ever break free of the brainwashing and look back on it.

And what of relgious parents of all stripes who teach their children not to associate with people not of their faith?

As I said, it is an interesting quandry. Some of these teachings border on child abuse, but most are protected as rights of the parent.

I always feel sad when I see very young children so utterly brainwashed. I feel a little the same when I see fundy children so indoctrinated that they will likely never break free and think objectively about their belief system. Hit them young, before they develop any critical thinking skills, and they are usually gone for life.
I agree it's complete brainwash. It's strange and sad religious people claim to unite you with God and yet have no godly characteristics within themselves.

That's why they like to attract young people as they are much easier to brainwashed.

Blind faith will not get you anywhere. People simply need to stop and think if their actions really make sense. One way to see if our actions make sense would be to see if I would want this to be done to us. Although it may not always work, but it may help "normal people" understand whether or not their actions make sense...
Reply

cali dude
02-20-2007, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Everything you do in life, and everything that happens in your life will be affected by someone else. What is done by others may harm you as a result of that.
There are different ways we are affected by other people's actions though. If you affected by observing me, while I am simply minding my business, it isn't the same as if come up to me and do something, e.g. physically or verbally abuse me.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Like the example i used in another thread; if you got kids, their going to learn from their teachers, their teachers get their curriculum off the government, so if you don't agree with the idea of homosexuality, then your kids are being taught that its all good and theres nothing wrong with it.


Now i have a right to teach my 'kids' my understanding of morals, not the morals of the government which keep changing. Morals are morals, and they should be kept constant.
You child might be only one of the few kids in his/her school to follow a separate lifestyle. So just because you want to teach your child something unique should not affect rest of the kids in school either. So you have a choice to advise your child's teacher not to teach him/her anything you don't want him/her to learn. But you have no right tell th teachers to teach other kids as same as what you want your child to learn.


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
It's only the media who decides what morals are, so if someone grows a beard - they shouldn't be looked at others as a terrorist, but thats what media does. Even though this guy might have been minding his own business. The same for a woman in niqaab, or even hijaab - the sisters in France are banned from wearing that at school! Now who's deciding that? Aren't they the one's who are forcing people to change their morals, even though it doesn't harm them in any way?
Well this is pretty sad that it has come to this.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If we all remain quiet and leave morals to be altered, their going to be altered by someone somehow or another. So who is the one who decides them?
No morality doesn't change. With time, people are simply realizing that whatever people do within their own space is their own business as long as they don't interfere with other people's freedom...
Reply

aamirsaab
02-20-2007, 06:04 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by cali dude
Now the question arises: Is one better than the other?
It depends on the individual's own perspective and their own definition of spirituality and religion.

Definitely spirituality is better than religion as you can see religion causes a lot of conflicts among people. If all these religious people, who are fighting today, were spiritually wise, there wouldn't be any religious fights in the world.
I do not see religion as simply an Identity. I see it as a mind set. As such, there is no difference, to me, between spirituality and religion.

As far as my stance on what parents should/should not teach their child(ren), it is entirely upto them.

There is no rule set in stone commanding any of us to or not to teach others, whether they be our children or not, since it is upto the individual(s) concerned.
Reply

Pygoscelis
02-20-2007, 09:40 PM
Well as the preacher once told me in a more candid moment "You have to have your brain washed from time to time, or you will have a dirty mind".

Clever word play that.
Reply

cali dude
02-24-2007, 07:49 PM
I guess it depends what you wash the brain with.

I think this could be a major difference between religion and a cult. In cults, usually the brainwashing is needed. Nobody is supposed to think rationally.
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