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doodlebug
02-16-2007, 08:26 PM
assalam alaykum

Just curious is Usama bin Ladin considered a muslim and part of the ummah if he committed terrorist acts?
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strider
02-16-2007, 08:27 PM
Allahu Alim.
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Kittygyal
02-16-2007, 08:30 PM
salamualikum.
we can NOT judge that person ONLY allah subahwnatallah knows, so allah hu alim
Ma'assalama
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Keltoi
02-16-2007, 11:56 PM
Let me get this straight. I've seen Muslims denounce other Muslims on here for being too liberal, calling them apostates and so forth. I realize that one Muslim's opinion doesn't equate to Islamic belief, but I've noticed a tendency for Muslims to defend known terrorists, but denounce those with different opinions than theirs on what it is to be a Muslim. Seems like a real problem of priorities there. Just my opinion.
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wilberhum
02-17-2007, 12:03 AM
Just my opinion.
And mine too.
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Umar001
02-17-2007, 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Let me get this straight. I've seen Muslims denounce other Muslims on here for being too liberal, calling them apostates and so forth. I realize that one Muslim's opinion doesn't equate to Islamic belief, but I've noticed a tendency for Muslims to defend known terrorists, but denounce those with different opinions than theirs on what it is to be a Muslim. Seems like a real problem of priorities there. Just my opinion.

I think what it comes down to is the open rejection of articles of faith which take one out of the fold of Islam.

For example, when you have someone saying the Qu'ran is to be updated and it needs change, then this contradict a fundamental of faith, i.e. that Allah has perfected the religion and that noone should change anything.

So such a statement is seen as apostacy.

When you have someone saying you dont need to do somethin which in reality is a basic fundamental of Islam then that again can be seen as apostatcy.

When you have someone commiting a killing or a major sins, but the sin does not take one out of the fold of Islam then they might still be Muslim.

But when someone is saying for example, you do have to do such and such but you do it like this, then that might not take them out of Islam.

Like if you have a women who denies hijab then that might take her out of islam, but if you have a woman who says WE DO HAVE TO WEAR HIJAB but it is only a head scarf then that is wrong but it might not take one out of islam

With bin laden according to what i know he says we have to do 'jihad' but the way we he asks from what i understand is wrong. but that doesnt take someone out of islam.

Some people say such and such make takfir, then that might take someone out of islam.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Let me get this straight. I've seen Muslims denounce other Muslims on here for being too liberal, calling them apostates and so forth.
Actually they were called apostates because they committed acts of apostasy, such as believe that the Quran is incomplete or disbelieving something in the Quran. That isn't being liberal- that is being non-Muslim.

While terrorist attacks are EXTREMELY SINFUL, they are not acts of apostasy as far as I know, if anyone has evidence on the contrary please share.
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Skillganon
02-17-2007, 12:16 AM
WE do not make takfeer on people (usamam) we do not exactly know their much about them, they may be just sinning, we do not start calling them kuffar for that. Especially the general muslim public are not allowed to, and we leave that to the Scholars at best.

The other groups are more clearer intheir belief as they call for openly their belief. Some are apostate by their own admission i.e. wafa sultan on the secular muslim summit thread. So mostly people like that are made takfeer upon.

The best example will be the Qadianis/Ahmadis. They are kaffir by all scholarly consensus.
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wilberhum
02-17-2007, 12:25 AM
Interesting concept. A Muslim says the Quran is not the word of god and people want to kill him. A Muslim kills thousands of people and they don't want to judge him. Interesting.
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Interesting concept. A Muslim says the Quran is not the word of god and people want to kill him. A Muslim kills thousands of people and they don't want to judge him. Interesting.
That is pretty much what I got out of the rather complicated answers to a rather simple question. However, in a Christian context, one can commit murder and still be called a Christian if they honestly repent and give their lives to Christ. Of course judgement is reserved for God alone.

I don't know about the answers given, they are strange to me as a Christian. However, perhaps my thinking on this issue is impacted by the death of 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I just find it odd that one is considered worse for not adhering to aspects of fundamental Islam, while a murdering terrorist is given the benefit of the doubt. Oh well...
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Interesting concept. A Muslim says the Quran is not the word of god and people want to kill him. A Muslim kills thousands of people and they don't want to judge him. Interesting.
We said we would not call them apostates because we have not seen clear acts of apsotasy from them. Murder is not apostasy, but it is a major sin.

As for the others, you can not be Muslim and believe certain things at the same time, such as denying the Quran. There are conditions for being Muslim- believing the Quran is complete is one of them. (specifically because there is a verse in the Quran that says that Allah will preserve it, how can someone dare to claim that they know better than Allah?)
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I just find it odd that one is considered worse for not adhering to aspects of fundamental Islam, while a murdering terrorist is given the benefit of the doubt. Oh well...
Would you consider someone who denied the divinity of Christ to be a Christian?

I hope that helps you understand- there are certain aspects that can not be denied by a Muslim, just like the divinity of Jesus can not be denied by a Christian.
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Would you consider someone who denied the divinity of Christ to be a Christian?

I hope that helps you understand- there are certain aspects that can not be denied by a Muslim, just like the divinity of Jesus can not be denied by a Christian.
That has nothing to do with what I said. I consider someone who commits acts of murder as being far worse than one who denies the divinity of Christ. I hope the individual finds Christ in his life, but the fact that he hasn't isn't nearly as bad as the fact that he murdered innocent people.
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wilberhum
02-17-2007, 12:52 AM
how can someone dare to claim that they know better than Allah?
It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god.
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Muslim Woman
02-17-2007, 12:59 AM

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&


Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
I think what it comes down to is the open rejection of articles of faith which take one out of the fold of Islam.

....
When you have someone commiting a killing or a major sins, but the sin does not take one out of the fold of Islam then they might still be Muslim.

...With bin laden according to what i know he says we have to do 'jihad' but the way we he asks from what i understand is wrong. but that doesnt take someone out of islam.



&&


I agree. As long as a Muslim is not saying that I don't believe in One God & Muhammed (p) is not the Last Prophet (p) , s/he will be considered as a Muslim. Killing innocent people is a major sin & if the killer does not repent sincerely , he will be in the eternal fire. But , in this world , he will be considered as a Muslim & ( to my knowledge ) will be buried in a Muslim graveyard .


Some people say such and such make takfir, then that might take someone out of islam.
--what is takfir ?
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north_malaysian
02-17-2007, 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I've seen Muslims denounce other Muslims on here for being too liberal, calling them apostates and so forth.
Is it all Muslim forummers or some of us.... you should make a statistics on this.....:okay:

Originally Posted by Keltoi
but I've noticed a tendency for Muslims to defend known terrorists, but denounce those with different opinions than theirs on what it is to be a Muslim. Seems like a real problem of priorities there. Just my opinion.
Is it...... I dont think that I did ever defend Osama....
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 01:53 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Is it all Muslim forummers or some of us.... you should make a statistics on this.....:okay:



Is it...... I dont think that I did ever defend Osama....
Okay, perhaps "defend" was the wrong word. Although the posts actually denouncing Osama are far and inbetween.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god.
Okay then. How can a Muslim claim that they believe in God and Islam then claim that He made a mistake? ^o)
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Skillganon
02-17-2007, 01:59 AM
Funny thing is majority of the world is theist. Not atheist.

So claiming they don't believe in Allah falls short.
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wilberhum
02-17-2007, 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Okay then. How can a Muslim claim that they believe in God and Islam then claim that He made a mistake? ^o)
If you are a Muslim, you can't.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 02:22 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
If you are a Muslim, you can't.
Exactly my point- now do you understand why we are opposed to people calling themselves Muslims and then saying the Quran is wrong, thus implying that they know better than God Himself?

That is why we consider their acts to be acts of apostasy.
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wilberhum
02-17-2007, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Funny thing is majority of the world is theist. Not atheist.

So claiming they don't believe in Allah falls short.
Oh but you are working on a major falicy. I believe is god as most of the world does. But his name is not Allah. :thumbs_do and most of the world agrees with me.
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Skillganon
02-17-2007, 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Oh but you are working on a major falicy. I believe is god as most of the world does. But his name is not Allah. :thumbs_do and most of the world agrees with me.
I alway's get this major fallacies "espoused" on me for some reason without my approval. Sometime I wonder wether I am getting forced into a marriage.

Call it "The Creator" does not make a difference.
It is same as saying I believe in Allah, but his name is not God.
Both is used to refer to "The Creator".

I think we should stick to the topic atleast. Don't wan't to derail this thread.
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Umar001
02-17-2007, 02:37 AM
Also on top of what I wrote I dont know if anyone read it. There is also the fact that those denounced by people are are more likely to be depicted by the media correctly than lets say Bin Laden. Because liberals are seen to be on the same side as the media, whilst bin laden is not.

So that helps also with some muslims becuase when it comes to denooucing ultra liberal people then it is more likely that the sources that are given are correct in their depiction, whilst when talkin about someone who most countries dislike then to base their opinion on such media is something alot of Muslims do not like to do.
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doodlebug
02-17-2007, 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
That has nothing to do with what I said. I consider someone who commits acts of murder as being far worse than one who denies the divinity of Christ. I hope the individual finds Christ in his life, but the fact that he hasn't isn't nearly as bad as the fact that he murdered innocent people.
assalam alaykum,

My question really has nothing to do with what actions are worse or not worse. It's simply a logical, non emotional question on what exactly is an act that would make someone not a muslim anymore.

Just as my denying Christ as my saviour would make me not a Christian yet my sinning by committing murder would not deny my Christianity. (if I were a Christian which I am not) Granted the murder is obviously a worse thing in our mortal eyes, but still it does not negate the religion of the one doing it.

There are good Christians and bad Christians just as there are good Muslims and bad Muslims, but good or bad, they are still Muslim as long as they believe that there is only One God and that Mohammed, pbuh, is His messenger and try to adhere to the 5 pillars of faith as much as they are able.

My reason for the question was a debate on another forum where some were aghast that I would say that although a muslim may commit a heinous crime, they would still be my brother/sister in Islam.

I hope that makes sense. I obviously (to me) think that any people who put harm on innocent lives is a bad person who deserves to be punished. That really doesn't have to do with my original question though.
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Malaikah
02-17-2007, 02:48 AM
:sl:

^Good post. And those are punished under Islamic law, they just aren't considered non-Muslims.
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Woodrow
02-17-2007, 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
That is pretty much what I got out of the rather complicated answers to a rather simple question. However, in a Christian context, one can commit murder and still be called a Christian if they honestly repent and give their lives to Christ. Of course judgement is reserved for God alone.

I don't know about the answers given, they are strange to me as a Christian. However, perhaps my thinking on this issue is impacted by the death of 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I just find it odd that one is considered worse for not adhering to aspects of fundamental Islam, while a murdering terrorist is given the benefit of the doubt. Oh well...
Your statement is not far off from what a Muslim believes. If I recall in Christianity the one unforgivable sin is "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" so if a person committed that sin, it could be said they have removed them selves from Christianity. Although they have not killed anyone nor committed any violent acts. While on the other hand a Christian could commit murder, repent and still be a bona fide Christian.

Same thing with us, we can not know unless a person specifically openly disavows Islam. until such a statement is made by a person we have to assume they are Muslim, even if sadly lacking in the practices of being a Muslim.
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north_malaysian
02-17-2007, 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Oh but you are working on a major falicy. I believe is god as most of the world does. But his name is not Allah. :thumbs_do and most of the world agrees with me.
There are non Muslims calling their God as Allah...

For example the Peranakan Chinese in Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia use the term "Tuan Allah" for "God".... and the Iban (both tribal religionist and christian) also use "Allah" for "God"....

And millions more Christians in the Mid East using the same term too... "Allah"...

"Allah" is not exclusive right for Muslims only... you know..
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Um_ahmad
02-17-2007, 05:03 AM
&&


Killing innocent people is a major sin & if the killer does not repent sincerely , he will be in the eternal fire. But , in this world , he will be considered as a Muslim & ( to my knowledge ) will be buried in a Muslim graveyard .



I agree....
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siFilam
02-17-2007, 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
That has nothing to do with what I said. I consider someone who commits acts of murder as being far worse than one who denies the divinity of Christ. I hope the individual finds Christ in his life, but the fact that he hasn't isn't nearly as bad as the fact that he murdered innocent people.
I was kind of disturbed when I read your post. As a Muslim we read in the Qur’an that the greatest sin or wrong anyone can commit is rejecting their Creator or making false statement about Him. So when you said that you consider someone who murders innocent people to be worst, it just puzzled me.
I know you don’t believe in the Qur’an so this, unfortunately, doesn’t mean anything to you. But for the sake of the argument let’s say that we both believe in “The Creator”. How can the act of rejecting your Creator be considered better than killing someone. (Don’t get the impression that I’m justifying or condoning killing or the killers.) Our Creator not only created us, but He sustains us, provides for us…..I can go on but I’ll never be able to mention all that He does for us. When someone does this for me, He should come first in my life, whatever hurts Him should also hurt me. We can’t repay Him back so in return we give Him our sincere and unparallel love. Love that we show through our obedience to Him. As human we try not to hurt the one we love. When His creation rejects Him it hurts Him. If you are a parent, then you know if your children reject you and everything you do for them, you would be hurt. You won’t tolerate it and probably you’ll tell them to leave your house. Fortunately for us our Creator is Most Forbearing and Patient. Murdering someone without just reasons is wrong and is a major sin. But rejecting the Creator is a far greater crime. If a murderer dies after repenting then they have a chance to be saved from hell by the Grace of the Creator. But, if you die rejecting your Creator, there will be no helper or saver for you. This is not just an Islamic point of view. Christianity teaches the same: if you don’t die as a Christian then you’ll go to hell.
-SI-
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cihad
02-17-2007, 11:37 AM
i do not Know Usama Bin Laden
I do not have any proof that he did 9/11
therefore i will not judge him
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IceQueen~
02-17-2007, 11:40 AM
EXACTLY!!! where is the proof?
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England
02-17-2007, 12:35 PM
You say you're not allowed to judge whether someone is muslim or not yet I've heard everyone judge British muslim soldiers. Those soldiers haven't denounced the Quran, they pray everyday, they know the Quran, they practice it, devoted to Islam but because they are fighting for the British army they aren't real muslims. :rolleyes:
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England
02-17-2007, 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by IceQueen~
EXACTLY!!! where is the proof?
I thought after someone confesses they are guilty?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/..._10-29-04.html
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by England
I thought after someone confesses they are guilty?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/..._10-29-04.html
If his confession was false, then he is a liar. Which is worse?, a murderer or a liar? Can you make that judgment?
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England
02-17-2007, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
If his confession was false, then he is a liar. Which is worse?, a murderer or a liar? Can you make that judgment?
Say when you go to court, if the suspect confesses to his crime he is automatically guilty and will be locked up.

The fact he is even supporting these attacks he just as bad as the ones that committed it. You don't need proof, though confession is enough. He deserves to be executed for his state of mind.
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by England
Say when you go to court, if the suspect confesses to his crime he is automatically guilty and will be locked up.

The fact he is even supporting these attacks he just as bad as the ones that committed it. You don't need proof, though confession is enough. He deserves to be executed for his state of mind.
Well, I think there is alot of evidence pointing to Bin Laden, mainly with the money trail. His confession on the videotape is just icing on the cake as far as any theoretical prosecution. Of course that is off topic.

Here is a question I would like an answer to. If Bin Laden was put on trial and found guilty of terrorist crimes, would the Muslims on this forum then denounce the man? Or would it have to be a "Muslim court?"....even though the victims aren't Muslims?
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Kittygyal
02-17-2007, 01:04 PM
salamualikum.
NO COMMENT CAN'T JUDGE WELL SAID SIS 'CHIAD'' I AGREE WITH YOU.
ma'assalama
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by Kittygyal
salamualikum.
NO COMMENT CAN'T JUDGE WELL SAID SIS 'CHIAD'' I AGREE WITH YOU.
ma'assalama
This is what I'm talking about. "No comment..can't judge". That seems to be the response by most Muslims on this forum about pretty much any terrorist, unless the terrorist is non-Muslim of course. Then when someone brings up a cleric or a fellow Muslim who disagrees with their particular brand of Islam, the thread is flooded with opinions, denouncements, barely concealed calls for assassination, etc. This just doesn't make sense to me and I don't think it ever will.
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Kittygyal
02-17-2007, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
This is what I'm talking about. "No comment..can't judge". That seems to be the response by most Muslims on this forum about pretty much any terrorist, unless the terrorist is non-Muslim of course. Then when someone brings up a cleric or a fellow Muslim who disagrees with their particular brand of Islam, the thread is flooded with opinions, denouncements, barely concealed calls for assassination, etc. This just doesn't make sense to me and I don't think it ever will.
Greetings,
i respect dude, i wouldn't understand either, as you are a christain, myself never agreed with all this && i used to judge alot when i ''was'' a christain, but now as i am a muslim we can NOT judge apart from allah (God) i hope you understand but i have to depart now take care :)
God bless :smile:
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 01:12 PM
Originally Posted by Kittygyal
Greetings,
i respect dude, i understand it wouldn't as you are a christain myself never agreed with all this && i used to judge alot when i ''was'' a christain, but now as i am a muslim we can NOT judge apart from allah (God) i hope you understand but i have to depart now take care :)
God bless :smile:
No, I don't understand. I don't know about you personally, and my comment wasn't directed towards you in particular. However, the justification you use for not "judging" anything seems to fly in the face of everything else in Islam. I just don't get it. Perhaps it is because I'm a Christian.
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chris4336
02-17-2007, 01:14 PM
I am kind of surprised as well. Just look at the aposty and adultery threads - people seem to have no problem saying these people should be executed. It happens very often in the Muslim world. This man killed innocent people and admitted to it. Where is the outcry for his execution?
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DAWUD_adnan
02-17-2007, 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god.
Dude, dont you realize what you just said? ow yeah you dont understand arabic, look how stupid it looks( i have translated the arabic for you) :

It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god. ( your version)


It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think The One True God is god. (translated version)

is it just me or is 80% of the world stupid..:rolleyes: really stupid?:uuh:
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
Dude, dont you realize what you just said? ow yeah you dont understand arabic, look how stupid it looks( i have translated the arabic for you) :

It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god. ( your version)


It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think The One True God is god. (translated version)

is it just me or is 80% of the world stupid..:rolleyes: really stupid?:uuh:
I think what he was saying is that 80% of the world aren't Muslims. Now if you include all the "People of the Book" as worshiping that "One True God", then we are talking about something else entirely.
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Kittygyal
02-17-2007, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
Dude, dont you realize what you just said? ow yeah you dont understand arabic, look how stupid it looks( i have translated the arabic for you) :

It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god. ( your version)


It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think The One True God is god. (translated version)

is it just me or is 80% of the world stupid..:rolleyes: really stupid?:uuh:
salamualikum.
khair, forget it dude this happens when people just talk && talk && then one day it will come to the end forget it not worth it dude :offended: you belive in what you belive don't waste yh time
Ma'assalama
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 01:22 PM
I'm still waiting for an explanation of why some Muslims find it so hard to judge a confessed murderer but find it easy to judge people they don't agree with. Is that the answer?
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DAWUD_adnan
02-17-2007, 01:29 PM
simply said in islam, forgiveness is easier to find if you dont apostate, Allah( One True God) will forgive anything faster than apostasy.
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DAWUD_adnan
02-17-2007, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think what he was saying is that 80% of the world aren't Muslims. Now if you include all the "People of the Book" as worshiping that "One True God", then we are talking about something else entirely.

tahnks for the clarification but still even if he said that he would be saying that

80% of the world do not submitthemselves to the will of The One True God as muslim means submitter to the will of God.

thanks i have to go bye
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Keltoi
02-17-2007, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
simply said in islam, forgiveness is easier to find if you dont apostate, Allah( One True God) will forgive anything faster than apostasy.
Well, I understand the concept of forgiveness, but one has to seek forgiveness before one can be forgiven. Also, who decides who is apostate? I've seen that word thrown around pretty loosely on this forum. Is an apostate one who deviates from the fundamentals of Islam? If that is the case, is murder deviating from the Quran?
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strider
02-17-2007, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm still waiting for an explanation of why some Muslims find it so hard to judge a confessed murderer but find it easy to judge people they don't agree with. Is that the answer?
I feel uncomfortable talking about Bin Ladin, because i've heard so many conflicting accounts of what he is supposed to believe in or not or what he is supposed to have done or not done. How can you possibly feel comfortable passing judgement on such a character? If he orchastrated 9/11 then he has innocent blood on his hands and for that, capital punishment is deserved.

With Bin Ladin comes a whole bunch of messed up politics and if we aren't in the inner circle we can't possibly know for sure what really happened/happens.
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Woodrow
02-17-2007, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Well, I understand the concept of forgiveness, but one has to seek forgiveness before one can be forgiven. Also, who decides who is apostate? I've seen that word thrown around pretty loosely on this forum. Is an apostate one who deviates from the fundamentals of Islam? If that is the case, is murder deviating from the Quran?
It is very serious to accuse another person of apostasy. Sadly, the accusation is sometimes used too readily. To be an apostate means that the person was a Muslim and then has openly shown or said that he/she is no longer Muslim.

There are very few actions that can be seen as acts of apostasy. a few are:

1. To worship gods in addition to the one God(swt)

2. To deliberately not say regular prayers

Plus these actions have to be witnessed by reliable witnesses. The person has to be warned that his actions are apostasy and only if he continues with the actions can it be called apostasy.

That is the short version as to what constitutes apostasy and it is my own wordings and may or may not be as it is written. Astagfirullah





Apostasy From Islam: The Most Abhorrent Sin



Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. May Allah raise the rank of our master Muhammad and his Al and Companions and protect his nation from that which he fears for it. Thereafter:


Islam is the only religion Allah accepts from His slaves and the only religion He ordered His slaves to follow. The one who performs the greatest right of Allah on the slave by worshipping Allah alone, not taking any partners to Him, and believing in the message of the Prophet Muhammad, will be granted everlasting bounties in Paradise. He who takes for himself a religion other than Islam and dies on that status will be a loser on the Day of Judgment and his eternal abode is Hellfire, where the torture does not cease nor decrease. Allah does not forgive the one who dies non-Muslim, nor will any of his good deeds done in this lifetime be accepted from him. Surat Muhammad, Ayah 34:



means: [Those who blasphemed and block away from the ways of Allah and die as blasphemers, Allah shall not forgive them. Surat an Nisa', Ayah 48:



means: [Allah does not forgive that one associates partners with Him, and He forgives whatever is less than that for whomever He willed.]


Source:http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformati...ostasy.htm.old
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doodlebug
02-17-2007, 06:30 PM
assalam alaykum

ok my bad..didn't realize this thread would take such a turn. It was a simple question to me.

As an aside, I don't judge anyone, but I will say that those who are proven guilty should be punished according to the laws that Allah has sent to us. That goes for everyone, whether they be an adulterer, muderer, terrorist, etc. It's plain and clear all laid out in the Quran.

The ultimate judging is up to Allah and Allah knows best. All of what all humans combined on this earth know isn't even a pebble in the sand of the vast desert compared to Allah's knowledge.
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YusufNoor
02-17-2007, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm still waiting for an explanation of why some Muslims find it so hard to judge a confessed murderer but find it easy to judge people they don't agree with. Is that the answer?
Peace Keltoi,

there's a catch, Catch 22! you can't say ANYTHING bad about a fellow Muslim [irregardless of whatever moronic, demonic or just plain devious the behaviour may be it seems]. apostacy makes you a non-Muslim, thus judgemental remarks seem allowed...

but, what the heck, bin Laden, Al Qaeda, et al seem like murderers to me!

happy now?:okay:

:w:

Yusuf
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جوري
02-18-2007, 02:29 AM
it is hard because believe it or not some of us don't believe he is behind your government perpetrated attacks... it is that simple....
I think you and us are beyond trying to prove the other person wrong... each of us will believe what he will. So how can we judge a man convict and even execute him without a trial? Only fools believe everything their media/govt. tells them. I have to believe that if you in person believed all you read ans saw on your TV, you'd not even be on this forum trying to understand Muslims. since on some level it would make you a supporter of terrorist views or frequenting a terrorist site. Imagine that.......
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Curaezipirid
02-18-2007, 02:44 AM
Salam

This is a good thread of necessary dialogue. But the reality is that while I might direct one person in one context to notice a specific example of another persons behaviour, for example if a kafir wanted to remind me about jahannam, but was hoping thereby to escape from himself, then I might use that as an example to a new Muslim, of a person whom is not true in their belief.

But by the same token, when I am actually talking with that exact same kafir, I will not say that they were wrong, since perhaps they had only been misinstructed themself. And perhaps, by knowing my own example, even that kafir might learn to behave according to correct belief.

So usually no Muslim will endeavour to find fault in any other Muslim, however, if we need an example of a wrong deed to teach from how such behaviour can be corrected, then we might have before named an individual as wrong.

In general, the stronger any persons individual faith is, the less likely they are to need to find any other person faulted. Thereby it is good practise to never name any other person with a Muslim identity as not actually a Muslim.

Yet clearly only a minority among all whom are professed Muslims, are always true to their faith. Yet in Islam are we still safe.

Criminals here in Australia whom try to sell drugs to youth whom have already pronounced Shahada, also try to tell those youth that as soon as they smoke one cigarette, they are no longer Muslim, and no longer within any protection of the Ummah. But all the youth need is to repent and pray.

Perhaps all of us are only really true Muslims during the moments in which our minds are held by Allah in real prayer? But there is nothing stopping us from re-committing as a new Muslim in any moment of every day. After every temptation, and in every situation, we can stay Muslim, and we can rebecome Muslim inside our self if ever we doubted ourself.

The same goes for Bin Laden and any other such persons. You can not know, and neither can I, what was in his mind at the moment of his death. So therein, can neither of us know if he died as Muslim.

But what we can know, is that it might be to our immediate detriment if we fail to acknowledge that perhaps he repented every wrong action in his moment of death.

Salam
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Curaezipirid
02-18-2007, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm still waiting for an explanation of why some Muslims find it so hard to judge a confessed murderer but find it easy to judge people they don't agree with. Is that the answer?

Because he is confessed Keltoi.

This is a matter of one of the essential keys to Islam. In his confession, even if it is only an internal confession between himself and Allah, that he has confessed to murder, or even to want of a murder, is that in his own death so he will be accounted, and therefore he is not for us to Judge as wrong, since he did not wrong us but he wronged his own self and his own love.

But as for a man with whom I disagree? I am neither Judging him only by being in disagreement with. And if I happen to Judge him, perhaps it might be only because we began our conversation with a greeting in which we open ourselves to each others Judgment as an act of acceptance of each other, and of accepting the faults in each other as a communally held responsiblity between the two of us. So if a judgment passes in a conversation, what is it to you that you regret any murders not seeming to be so very harshly vindicated as criminal, as our conversation might arm ourselves against each other with?

Salam
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جوري
02-18-2007, 02:53 AM
when has he confessed? I'd love to see that? oh wait I think CIA is working on it, will be released first thing tomorrow... lol
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Keltoi
02-18-2007, 05:10 AM
Back to another conspiracy? Why do I even bother?
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*Hana*
02-18-2007, 02:47 PM
Salam Alaikum:

I agree sis PurestAmbrosia, I'd like to know when he confessed too.

As far as 9/11 goes, the FBI's most wanted "poster" of him doesn't list 9/11 and when asked why they said, "There is no hard evidence to prove any connection to 9/11." You can see their "poster" HERE

Now, as far as things he may have admitted doing, if they catch him, IMO, he should be tried for that under the laws of the Shariah if he is captured in a predominately Muslim country. However, he is still a Muslim and none of us are in a position to say differently and as Muslims we are not permitted to say differently unless he openly denounces his faith.

Whether he is a good Muslim or a bad Muslim is between him and Allah, swt. We don't have to agree with or accept what he, or any other Muslim may do, but we do have to accept he is a Muslim. It's that simple. I know both good and bad Muslims, good and bad Christians, etc. I choose not to associate with the bad of either, but it doesn't mean they are not Muslims or Christians.

Someone may not be a practicing Muslim or they may be a bad Muslim, but if they still accept the proclamation of faith and do not denounce it, how can they be an apostate?

wa'alaikum salam,
Hana
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جوري
02-18-2007, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Back to another conspiracy? Why do I even bother?
That is funny.. the only conspiracy theories are perpetrated by your Govt. You don't have to have a doctorate to process and understand warfare in all its forms. or understand simple dictations of laws of physics. They hit you from a thousand angel a thousand video that miraculously appears when bush's ratings are low as if Usama is sitting there in his usama cave with his usama mobile checking the Internet thinking of ways to taunt that miserable buffoon. When only one good piece of evidence would have sufficed had it been true. This is almost too comical to comprehend. It makes for a bad movie plot. So you are right I don't know why you bother? why do you really? I can't think of a decent answer for that. You are repeating it like a religious prayer the way they do on nightly TV hoping people would forget facts and pick on emotion. I don't know where Usama went but I do know that he stands trial not from Bush and cronies but from the one that created him out of two cells. So stop wanting to initiate a sentiment from the people here that just doesn't exist... what is this? the Gestapo? each person is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions without infringement. You want to believe he is bad and killed your fellow Americans by all means no one is holding you back and I reckon a great deal of population echoes your sentiment.......

p.s thank you sister Hana for your reply :smile:
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Curaezipirid
02-19-2007, 05:29 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
when has he confessed? I'd love to see that? oh wait I think CIA is working on it, will be released first thing tomorrow... lol
I think that I am making only a metaphorical or allegorical link to Keltoi's statment about a "confessed murderer" so had answered Keltoi very precisely in only that one post he made, without really intending any direct reference there to any specific murderer confessed or otherwise.
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جوري
02-19-2007, 05:34 AM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
I think that I am making only a metaphorical or allegorical link to Keltoi's statment about a "confessed murderer" so had answered Keltoi very precisely in only that one post he made, without really intending any direct reference there to any specific murderer confessed or otherwise.
I know sister.. and your replies are always very well written. I just prefer not to extend myself in vain discourse at all if I can-- from experience I have learned people will believe what they want in face of overwhelming evidence so why bother? May Allah reward you for your kind efforts though :coolalien beam me up scotty
fi aman illah
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Keltoi
02-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I know sister.. and your replies are always very well written. I just prefer not to extend myself in vain discourse at all if I can-- from experience I have learned people will believe what they want in face of overwhelming evidence so why bother? May Allah reward you for your kind efforts though :coolalien beam me up scotty
fi aman illah
lol...if only you knew how ironic that statement actually is. :D
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جوري
02-19-2007, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
lol...if only you knew how ironic that statement actually is. :D
oh-- it is sufficient that you know, and thankfully can contain your joy-- at least that is our hope! :rolleyes:
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NoName55
02-25-2007, 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Interesting concept. A Muslim says the Quran is not the word of god and people want to kill him. A Muslim kills thousands of people and they don't want to judge him. Interesting.
What kind on nonsense is this?

It is the job of people in power (Lawmen) to catch killers and courts to sentence them to death on conviction.

oh! wait a minute, Muslim bashers don't like the Laws of G-d! do they? Paul changed all that when he helped promote Jesus from Messiah to god, didn't he? (instead they prefer mass genocides)

Now let's get back to some more Mulsim bashing.
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm still waiting for an explanation of why some Muslims find it so hard to judge a confessed murderer but find it easy to judge people they don't agree with. Is that the answer?
Please don't feel ignored, my reply above is for you as well as for anyone else.
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wilberhum
02-25-2007, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
What kind on nonsense is this?

It is the job of people in power (Lawmen) to catch killers and courts to sentence them to death on conviction.

oh! wait a minute, Muslim bashers don't like the Laws of G-d! do they? Paul changed all that when he helped promote Jesus from Messiah to god, didn't he? (instead they prefer mass genocides)

Now let's get back to some more Mulsim bashing.
Please don't feel ignored, my reply above is for you as well as for anyone else.
So if I don't agree with every Islamic stance, I'm a Muslim Basher?
I prefer mass genocide because I think your laws were not given by god.
Interesting attitudes. Would this qualify as Backbiting?
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NoName55
02-25-2007, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
So if I don't agree with every Islamic stance, I'm a Muslim Basher?
I prefer mass genocide because I think your laws were not given by god.
Interesting attitudes. Would this qualify as Backbiting?
Let me say this for the last time.

It is not the job of an average citizen, muslim or otherwise, to go either catch alleged criminals, or to judge them in absentia, that is why we have our police and courts.

I don't remember the Catholics of world were evere required to go hunting/judging provo killers, we had RUC for that

P.S.

Not my laws(they are written in Tanakh
Would this qualify as Backbiting?
oh dear o dear
I sometimes despair

backbiting noun. Unkind remarks about someone who is absent
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wilberhum
02-25-2007, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
Let me say this for the last time.

It is not the job of an average citizen, muslim or otherwise, to go either catch alleged criminals, or to judge them in absentia, that is why we have our police and courts.

I don't remember the Catholics of world were evere required to go hunting/judging provo killers, we had RUC for that

P.S.

Not my laws(they are written in Tanakh
oh dear o dear
I sometimes despair

backbiting noun. Unkind remarks about someone who is absent
So as long as I am here it is OK to make unkind remarks. Interesting.
My Mama always told me silence is consent. And I think that fully applies to not condemning those who do evil to there fellow man.
But then that's just me being me.
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NoName55
02-25-2007, 05:50 PM
:cry:
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