Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques

[Showkat]

Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques
Richard Kerbaj
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...82-601,00.html

SENIOR Muslim leaders have called for the Australian flag to be flown outside the nation's mosques as an expression of the Islamic community's "loyalty" and commitment to this country.
Muslim clerics yesterday urged Australia's 300,000 Muslims to back the idea as a symbol of "integration" and pride.
The former chairman of the Prime Minister's Muslim reference group, Ameer Ali, pushed the Australian Muslim community yesterday to adopt the flag.

"Even in Muslim countries in the mosque they fly the national flag ... (such as) in Pakistan. If that can be done in a Muslim country why not in Australia?" Dr Ali said.

He said Muslims opposed to the flag being displayed outside mosques were religiously narrow-minded. "I think they are looking at it from a very narrow, religious angle," he said.

Dr Ali said he spearheaded the initiative of displaying the flag outside Muslim schools owned by the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils when he ran that organisation in 2002.

He also ensured that students sang the national anthem during special functions.

"We are Australian Muslims," he said. "And it (the flag) is a symbol of our national identity."

One of Australia's most respected female Muslim leaders, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said displaying a national flag outside mosques would not conflict with Islamic teachings.

"Putting the Australian flag (outside mosques is) a good sign of integration, of being at one with everyone else in this country and our pride in being Australian," said Sister Abdel-Halim, also a former senior member of John Howard's Muslim advisory body.

"I don't see anything at all that would contradict Islamic teachings in any way. It would be a nice gesture to have it, especially now that Muslims really need to underline the fact that they are loyal to this country."

Another respected imam, Amin Hady, said it would be especially important for the Australian flag to be flown outside mosques on special national occasions, such as Anzac Day and Australia Day. "That is to me a good idea to reaffirm the commitment of anyone living in this country, including the Muslims who are part of the population," the Indonesian imam said.

Islamic sources have told The Weekend Australian that the move to fly the flag was discussed by executive members of the Lebanese Muslim Association, one of the Islamic community's most prominent organisations.

But the move, backed by several LMA board executives, to display the flag outside Lakemba Mosque, in Sydney's southwest, were staunchly opposed by some community members.

It is understood that the LMA's proposal came after a Muslim man tore down the Australian flag from the Lakemba office of the Mufti of Australia, Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, last year and stomped on it to express his opposition to it.

It is believed that Sheik Hilali - who recently labelled Westerners liars and oppressors and said Australia belonged more to Muslim immigrants who "paid for our passports" than Anglo-Saxon convicts - reprimanded the man before ordering him from the office, on the same premises as the mosque.

But Muslim leader Keysar Trad said last night some community members would consider the idea of displaying the flag as "politicising a place of worship".

"I have no problem with the flag being at Muslim schools, but a place of worship is for all people to be equal and as such I believe places of worship should maintain the tradition of not raising the national flag," Mr Trad said.

And prominent Sydney-based Islamic cleric, Khalil Shami, expressed fears yesterday that hoisting the flag outside mosques would lead to potential violence and further division within the community among factions opposed to the idea.

Comment:

Its quite funny how these so called religious leaders say that being loyal to a nation state which is based on non-Islam is compatible with the teachings of islam, yet they fail to provide a single reference from Islamic sources. Maybe its because Islam obliges loyalty to Islam and the ummah only.

In terms of integrating into western society Muslims are prepared to do that, but not at the cost of losing our identity as many other communities have done already.

In their quest to be loyal to Australia and to integrate fully maybe these imams should lead by example and allow their sons and daughters to sunbath, go to nightclubs and pubs and engage in relationships with the opposite sex, after all this is quite normal and acceptable nowadays and only the backward and ignorant Islamic fundamentalists oppose such activities as being decadent and wicked.

[Woodrow]

I could be wrong but I believe that because of our seperation of church and state laws it would be illegal to fly a USA flag on a Mosque, Church, Synagogue or any religious building.

I know I have never seen it flown on any.

[Skillganon]

Well, I hope the muslim in australia are not so stupid to do such an act.

Using statement like "this idiot did it so I am allowed to be an idiot too." is not an excuse.

[ACC]

I could be wrong but I believe that because of our seperation of church and state laws it would be illegal to fly a USA flag on a Mosque, Church, Synagogue or any religious building.

I know I have never seen it flown on any.

I have seen the American flag flown on many churches. In fact, American flags are inside of every Catholic Church I have been to, next to the Vatican flag. I cant speak for protestant, evangelical or Orthodox churches.

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[Woodrow]

I have seen the American flag flown on many churches. In fact, American flags are inside of every Catholic Church I have been to, next to the Vatican flag. I cant speak for protestant, evangelical or Orthodox churches.

Yes, on the inside, but not flying from the Church on the outside in Public view.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Hmm, is that a good idea? It is allowed?

[Cognescenti]

I could be wrong but I believe that because of our seperation of church and state laws it would be illegal to fly a USA flag on a Mosque, Church, Synagogue or any religious building.

I know I have never seen it flown on any.

I believe you are mistaken Woodrow.

It is the Governmental institutions that have to be careful about public displays of religious symbols, not the other way around.

The Constitution prohibits the "establishment of a state religion", it does not prohibit people of faith from showing allegiance to their country.

There is one fine point. Religious entities with tax exemptions cannot openly endorse poltical candidates. They can urge their members to seek out candidates with similar viewpoints but they aren't suppose to say "Vote for xxxxx"

By the way, I think Dr. Ali's idea is a good one. It might go a long way toward alleviating questions of loyalty, even if it chiefly symbolic.

[ACC]

Yes, on the inside, but not flying from the Church on the outside in Public view.

I will definitely take a better look tomorrow and get back to you as to the outside display.

[Cognescenti]

The applicable portion of the US Bill of Rights is:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The phrase "separation of Church and State" is not actually in the Constitution (or any other law I know of). It is from a famous letter written by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists. Here is an excerpt:


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

This was cited in at least one Supreme Court decision as evidence of the "original intent" of the authors.

Note that the clear proscritption in the Bill of Rights is to restirct the Government vis a vis a State religion. This, of course, was a sore subject because of the experience of many Colonists with the Church of England. Putting a US flag on your property is an act of Freedom of Speech, which is ironically protected in the same amendment. In fact, buring or disgracing a flag is a protected free speech act.

[dougmusr]

Yes, on the inside, but not flying from the Church on the outside in Public view.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

It would be impossible for congress to outlaw flying the flag on a church, because it would require passing a law against free speech by a church which is clearly outlawed by the 1st amendment. Separation of church and state makes a nice sound byte but it is not in the constitution.

[Woodrow]

It would be impossible for congress to outlaw flying the flag on a church, because it would require passing a law against free speech by a church which is clearly outlawed by the 1st amendment. Separation of church and state makes a nice sound byte but it is not in the constitution.

You are correct.

I had just never seen a flag displayed on the outside of any religious building. I was making an assumption, based simply on observation, without questioning the observation.

[Woodrow]

Now getting back to the original topic.

I believe for a Mosque to fly a national flag would be wrong. If for no other reason it gives the impression that the Mosque is a servent of the nation. Now there is nothing wrong with the members of a Mosque to offer support to a just Nation, but they should never give the impression that Islam is a sevent of the Nation.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Is that allowed Islamically?

[Woodrow]

Is that allowed Islamically?

I have been trying to find reference as to what would prohibit it in Islam. My own personal feeling is that this is placing something as an equal to Allah(SWT). I feel that for a Mosque to diplay a National Flag, is dangerously close to promoting shirk.

It will take a scholar to say if that is a correct view, but for myself and seeing a possibility it would be haram I would say do not take the chance, unless somebody can offer evidence that it is not haram.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Another respected imam, Amin Hady, said it would be especially important for the Australian flag to be flown outside mosques on special national occasions, such as Anzac Day and Australia Day. "That is to me a good idea to reaffirm the commitment of anyone living in this country, including the Muslims who are part of the population," the Indonesian imam said.

Islamic sources have told The Weekend Australian that the move to fly the flag was discussed by executive members of the Lebanese Muslim Association, one of the Islamic community's most prominent organisations.

^^Does that count? lol

I personally don't agree with the idea, allowed or not. It's just...weird...and unnecessary. You can find a different way to show your loyalty, not label a Masjid(a house of worship) with a "flag." They can for one help fix up the Muslim community and make it better...
What did the Masjid ever do to them?? ;D

[siFilam]

:sl:
this is not cool....
Masjid should be based on the Prophet (saw)'s Sunnah. i
y do they need to show loyalty? I mean y through a place of worship...maybe someone can enlighten me on this.

[Skillganon]

:sl:
this is not cool....
Masjid should be based on the Prophet (saw)'s Sunnah. i
y do they need to show loyalty? I mean y through a place of worship...maybe someone can enlighten me on this.

You can try the call of Jahilliya?

[snakelegs]

i think it would be inappropriate for any religious building to fly a national flag.
in islam, which takes a strong stand against nationalism, it would be even more so.

[ManchesterFolk]

Now getting back to the original topic.

I believe for a Mosque to fly a national flag would be wrong. If for no other reason it gives the impression that the Mosque is a servent of the nation. Now there is nothing wrong with the members of a Mosque to offer support to a just Nation, but they should never give the impression that Islam is a sevent of the Nation.

Servant of the nation? The mosque is on the nations land. A nation which opened its arms towards immigrants who wanted a better life and for many Australia gave it to them.

[ACC]

Servant of the nation? The mosque is on the nations land. A nation which opened its arms towards immigrants who wanted a better life and for many Australia gave it to them.

Does anyone else get the sense that the integration of muslims in all parts of the world is, and will continue to be, a massive issue for our generation?
One of the main clashes will be muslims using the quran to justify something, which will mean absolutely nothing to a non-muslims or its government.

[strider]

Servant of the nation? The mosque is on the nations land. A nation which opened its arms towards immigrants who wanted a better life and for many Australia gave it to them.

So what if it is? What happened to freedom of expression? It would be absolutely ridiculous to ask a mosque of all places to affliate itself with a single nationality. It isn't an 'Australian' mosque, it is simply a mosque where people of all nationalities gather because they all have something in common, which is their faith.

Majority of the Muslims work hard within their respective communities, and have adopted the country they immigrated to as their home. Why do certain people keep on thinking it is necessary for Muslims to 'prove' their 'loyality'?

If you want to make a mosque fly the national flag then make every other building on the nations land fly one, too. It's absolutely ridiculous. You're stifling peoples identities.

[ManchesterFolk]

So what if it is? What happened to freedom of expression? It would be absolutely ridiculous to ask a mosque of all places to affliate itself with a single nationality. It isn't an 'Australian' mosque, it is simply a mosque where people of all nationalities gather because they all have something in common, which is their faith.

Majority of the Muslims work hard within their respective communities, and have adopted the country they immigrated to as their home. Why do certain people keep on thinking it is necessary for Muslims to 'prove' their 'loyality'?

If you want to make a mosque fly the national flag then make every other building on the nations land fly one, too. It's absolutely ridiculous. You're stifling peoples identities.

The goverment is not asking for them to do so! Muslims clerics are!

[Cognescenti]

Does anyone else get the sense that the integration of muslims in all parts of the world is, and will continue to be, a massive issue for our generation?
One of the main clashes will be muslims using the quran to justify something, which will mean absolutely nothing to a non-muslims or its government.

Yes...I completely agree. That is just going to make the locals really angry after a bit. Ironically, it is the long-time residents of the host country who are accused of being culturally sensitive to Islam...yet immigrant Muslims, in many cases, seem to be unwilling to make even the smallest gestures toward the cultural standards of the host country.

This suggestion by Dr. Ali seems harmless and might well go a long way toward healing rifts. There is no need to put the flag on the mosque itself..just deed a small part of the property to some trusted member of the mosque and put the flag there. Where is the harm in that? It is called public relations. :smile:

[Cognescenti]

So what if it is? What happened to freedom of expression? It would be absolutely ridiculous to ask a mosque of all places to affliate itself with a single nationality. It isn't an 'Australian' mosque, it is simply a mosque where people of all nationalities gather because they all have something in common, which is their faith.

Majority of the Muslims work hard within their respective communities, and have adopted the country they immigrated to as their home. Why do certain people keep on thinking it is necessary for Muslims to 'prove' their 'loyality'?

If you want to make a mosque fly the national flag then make every other building on the nations land fly one, too. It's absolutely ridiculous. You're stifling peoples identities.

Gee...I don't know. Perhaps it is those with attitudes like yours? The Austrailians have newspapers and some even know how to read. Do you think it is possible they might have drawn inferences from what happened in Britain...home grown terrorism?

You are so primed to suffer an insult you failed to understand th epoint of the original article. This was an idea offered by a Muslim leader in Australia.

[strider]

The goverment is not asking for them to do so! Muslims clerics are!

I'm aware of that. I was replying to your comments.

[strider]

Gee...I don't know. Perhaps it is those with attitudes like yours? The Austrailians have newspapers and some even know how to read. Do you think it is possible they might have drawn inferences from what happened in Britain...home grown terrorism?

You are so primed to suffer an insult you failed to understand th epoint of the original article. This was an idea offered by a Muslim leader in Australia.

Usually, i'm one of the first people to back gestures like these but not on this one. I think Keysar Trad got it right. A mosque is indeed a place of worship, where everybody is seen to be equal and the last place where division over nationality should be created unnecessarily.

[Muezzin]

Yes...I completely agree. That is just going to make the locals really angry after a bit. Ironically, it is the long-time residents of the host country who are accused of being culturally sensitive to Islam...yet immigrant Muslims, in many cases, seem to be unwilling to make even the smallest gestures toward the cultural standards of the host country.

Really? I think you'll find such Muslims are in the minority. You're also assuming that all Muslims in Western states are immigrants, which is untrue.

This suggestion by Dr. Ali seems harmless and might well go a long way toward healing rifts. There is no need to put the flag on the mosque itself..just deed a small part of the property to some trusted member of the mosque and put the flag there. Where is the harm in that? It is called public relations. :smile:

Okay. If the leaders of certain mosques choose to fly flags, that is their prerogative.

It's still extremely stupid how many justify the entire Muslim community having to 'prove' their loyalty because of the actions of a few violent scumbags. Such displays of fealty should be a choice, rather than a requisite, as certain people on this thread have implied. Is living in peace, working hard and paying your taxes not enough to 'prove' your loyalty?

Still, I'm writing this as a British citizen. I've not seen the Union Jack flown outside churches, synangogues, hindu temples, mosques or gurudwaras, and I don't think such flag waving is necessary for the followers of those religions to prove their loyalty to the UK. Maybe the situation is different in Australia.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Flag on Masjid = NO!!

[Cognescenti]

Really? I think you'll find such Muslims are in the minority. .

Fair enough. I hereby state I should have said, to be cautious, "some cases" instead of "many cases". Still, public perception is what it is. You can't will it away.

Okay.

It's still extremely stupid how many justify the entire Muslim community having to 'prove' their loyalty because of the actions of a few violent scumbags. Such displays of fealty should be a choice, rather than a requisite, as certain people on this thread have implied.

I agree that peace-loving Muslims (in the West) are "unfairly" tarnished by a violent few (that is if we don't count sympathies for the attackers :thumbs_do ).....but it does no good to simply stomp one's feet.

Let's say I cant get a date because I have hair growing out of my ears. Do I blame women because of their insensitivity to the natural effects of testosterone? After all, its not my fault. Or do i pluck out the hairs?

Which strategy is likely to succeed? Confrontation or compromise?

[Cognescenti]

Usually, i'm one of the first people to back gestures like these but not on this one. I think Keysar Trad got it right. A mosque is indeed a place of worship, where everybody is seen to be equal and the last place where division over nationality should be created unnecessarily.

I understand the point...but it does occur to me that division over religion doesn't make all that much sense either.

[Muezzin]

Fair enough. I hereby state I should have said, to be cautious, "some cases" instead of "many cases". Still, public perception is what it is. You can't will it away.

I don't remain silent in the face of falsehood, no matter what the public thinks. Clarifying misconceptions can and does change public perception. Once upon a time the public perceived the black race to be inferior to the white race. You wouldn't ridicule or dub 'politically correct' the people who challenged that perception would you?

I agree that peace-loving Muslims (in the West) are "unfairly" tarnished by a violent few (that is if we don't count sympathies for the attackers :thumbs_do ).....but it does no good to simply stomp one's feet.

So now I'm stomping my feet? Did anyone ever tell you you have a bad habit of belittling people you disagree with? And what's with the speech marks?

If you knew me as a person, you'd know that I'm very well integrated into British society, thank you very much, without the need to fly a Union Jack from my trousers. You've simply assumed that because I'm Muslim, I must be some sort of stubborn beardy bloke who refuses to fit in, sympathises with terrorists and whinges a lot without actually doing anything.

Let's say I cant get a date because I have hair growing out of my ears. Do I blame women because of their insensitivity to the natural effects of testosterone? After all, its not my fault. Or do i pluck out the hairs?

Which strategy is likely to succeed? Confrontation or compromise?

You do what you want - you make your own choice. You might decide to pluck out the hairs. You might decide that you want to find someone who accepts you as you are without passively aggressively blaming society in the process. You might decide to wear earmuffs. Whatever floats your boat.

A better example would have been, 'should the entire Italian-American community have to prove they are law-abiding citizens because of the actions of the Mafia?', in which case I would have answered 'of course not. If they wish to prove their loyalty by joining the Army or the police force, that's their prerogative, not a requirement of citizenship'.

As I've said above, if people wish to fly flags, that's their prerogative. I'm just saying I don't think that such displays should be a requirement of living in a democratic state, as certain people here have implied. Like I said, I've not seen British churches, synagogues, hindu temples, gurudwaras or mosques flying the Union Jack, nor would I expect them to. If the owners of such buildings decide to fly flags, fair enough, it's their choice.

[Cognescenti]

I don't remain silent in the face of falsehood, no matter what the public thinks. Clarifying misconceptions can and does change public perception. Once upon a time the public perceived the black race to be inferior to the white race. You wouldn't ridicule or dub 'politically correct' the people who challenged that perception would you?.

Full speed ahead on clarifying misconceptions. More power to you. I reject your analogy to racism, however. That is only superficially vaild.

So now I'm stomping my feet? Did anyone ever tell you you have a bad habit of belittling people you disagree with? And what's with the speech marks?

If you knew me as a person, you'd know that I'm very well integrated into British society, thank you very much, without the need to fly a Union Jack from my trousers. You've simply assumed that because I'm Muslim, I must be some sort of stubborn beardy bloke who refuses to fit in, sympathises with terrorists and whinges a lot without actually doing anything.

I made no such assumption. In fact, it was not my intent to suggest that you were guilty of the behavior. I did say "one's" feet, which was a rare display of grammatical correctness for me. If I meant you, I should have said "your", correct? If I was unclear, I apologize.

What does "whinges" mean?

A better example would have been, 'should the entire Italian-American community have to prove they are law-abiding citizens because of the actions of the Mafia?', in which case I would have answered 'of course not. If they wish to prove their loyalty by joining the Army or the police force, that's their prerogative, not a requirement of citizenship'.

As I've said above, if people wish to fly flags, that's their prerogative. I'm just saying I don't think that such displays should be a requirement of living in a democratic state, as certain people here have implied. Like I said, I've not seen British churches, synagogues, hindu temples, gurudwaras or mosques flying the Union Jack, nor would I expect them to.

Good example with the Italian-American thing. Note that those biases were largely erased through integration into the broader culture...to a alesser extent through public information campaigns.

If Muslims in Australia chose to reject the good Doctor's advise..so be it. I am merely stating I think he may be onto something.

BTW ...re this:

I'm just saying I don't think that such displays should be a requirement of living in a democratic state, as certain people here have implied


Who exactly implied that???

[Muezzin]

Full speed ahead on clarifying misconceptions. More power to you. I reject your analogy to racism, however. That is only superficially vaild.

How so?

I made no such assumption. In fact, it was not my intent to suggest that you were guilty of the behavior.

I apologise for being oversensitive in that case.

I did say "one's" feet, which was a rare display of grammatical correctness for me. If I meant you, I should have said "your", correct? If I was unclear, I apologize.

I misunderstood you. Thank you for the clarification.

What does "whinges" mean?

I believe 'whinge' is slang exclusive to Britain, and means 'to whine' :)

Good example with the Italian-American thing. Note that those biases were largely erased through integration into the broader culture...to a alesser extent through public information campaigns.

This is true. People tend to forget that the majority of Muslims are pretty well integrated though.

If Muslims in Australia chose to reject the good Doctor's advise..so be it. I am merely stating I think he may be onto something.

That's fine. I think he may be onto something too. However, I've (probably overzealously and hyperbolically) expressed my opinion that it should not be a requirement.

BTW ...re this:

I'm just saying I don't think that such displays should be a requirement of living in a democratic state, as certain people here have implied


Who exactly implied that???

It was unfair for me to use the word 'impied'. Rather, I inferred from ManchesterFolk's message that he regarded it as a requisite. I probably misunderstood however.

[arabiyyah]

This is true. People tend to forget that the majority of Muslims are pretty well integrated though.

Exactly!

[NoName55]

.....................

What does "whinges" mean?..........

I

hello,
One got the impression from reading your posts that you knew it all.

any how
whinge intr.v. Chiefly British. , whinged , whinging , whinges . To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

Ma'asalaama (it means "go in peace", so pleace don't start a crusade, jihad or holy war against me)

[north_malaysian]

well... all mosques in Malaysia have Malaysian flags flown in the compound area along with state flag and malaysian muslim flag (green flag with white crescent on the middle)...

I've seen Malaysian flags being flown on the churches and temples compound too...

[InToTheRain]

i think it would be inappropriate for any religious building to fly a national flag.
in islam, which takes a strong stand against nationalism, it would be even more so.

You've hit the nail on the head, completely agree. We can't promote nationalism in anyway as Muslims and the only loyalty we have is towards Allah(SWT).

[NoName55]

You've hit the nail on the head, completely agree. We can't promote nationalism in anyway as Muslims and the only loyalty we have is towards Allah(SWT).

:sl:

Funny how some people keep repeating this Mantra over and over ad infinitum. I have, now, heard it so many times that it makes my old head spin. (they are waiting for a khilafah before they protect the countries that protect them)

One hindu loving mullah type called those of us in Pakistan army --that repelled the night time sneak attack on Pakistan in 1965-- secular dogs

:w:

[mizan_aliashraf]

Hang on a minute, isnt 'loyalty' only supposed to be to Allah and Islam. We dont have to show loyalty to a country, especially a non-muslim one. I dont know about these people, but to be quite honest, it doesnt surprise me.

[Joe98]

I believe for a Mosque to fly a national flag would be wrong.

......it gives the impression that the Mosque is a servent of the nation.

You don't understand the issue. Some mosques around Sydney fly the Lebanese flag.

Some Muslims suggested that the Australian flag ought to be flown as well.

-

[Malaikah]

You don't understand the issue. Some mosques around Sydney fly the Lebanese flag.

Ah okay. In that case, all flags should be taken down!

[Cognescenti]

hello,
One got the impression from reading your posts that you knew it all.

any how
whinge intr.v. Chiefly British. , whinged , whinging , whinges . To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

Ma'asalaama (it means "go in peace", so pleace don't start a crusade, jihad or holy war against me)

Nice rabbit punch there, oh nameless one.

Any how..thanks for the definition. You needn't worry about any war based on religious dogma from me. I think we are more likely to see the Pope, The Archbishop of Canterburry and the Dalai Lama all convert to Islam before I take up the sword in the name of God.

[north_malaysian]

Some mosques around Sydney fly the Lebanese flag.

That's weird..... does it mean that the mosque is only for Lebanese worshippers?imsad

[Woodrow]

I was under the impression that Lebanon is considered a Christian Country. Why Would a Mosque fly the Lebannese flag?

[Sweetness]

Well, I hope the muslim in australia are not so stupid to do such an act.

Using statement like "this idiot did it so I am allowed to be an idiot too." is not an excuse.

I don't think it is very nice of you to say that a brother is an idiot just because he wants to fly a flag. Big deal. It's not something worth being so nasty about.

[Skillganon]

Putting nationislm above Islam is wrong and forbidden. Any sensible muslim should know that.

Back to the topic. read the following below:

Excerpt from Islam-qa

The scholars of the Standing Committee were asked:

There is a custom in some mosques during the days of Eid and Fitr and on other religious occasions of adorning the mosque with different kinds of colours and lights and flowers. Does Islam allow such actions or not? What is the evidence for it being permissible or otherwise?

Answer:

The mosques are the houses of Allaah, and they are the best spots on earth. Allaah has given permission for them to be built and be respected by proclaiming the Oneness of Allaah (Tawheed) and remembering Him, and for prayer to be established in them, and for the people to be taught about their religion in them and to be guided to that which will bring them happiness in this world and in the Hereafter, by cleansing them of abominations, idols, deeds of shirk, innovations and myths, and of filth and dirt and impure things, and by protecting them against idle pursuits and foolishness and raising voices, even if that is by making announcements about things that have been found and asking about something that has been lost, and other things that would make them like public streets and marketplaces. And it is forbidden to bury people in mosques, or to build mosques over graves, or to hang up pictures in mosques or draw pictures on their walls, and other things that would promote shirk or distract those who are worshipping Allaah therein and contradict the purpose for which they were built. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) paid attention to these matters, as is well known from his life story and his actions, and he taught them to his ummah so that they would follow his teachings and respect the mosque and take care of the places that were built to establish the rituals of Islam. By doing that, they are following the example of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and there is no report from him (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which says that he venerated the mosque by illuminating it or putting flowers in it on Eids and special occasions. That was not known at the time of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs either or the time of the guided rulers during the early generations which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) testified are the best of generations, even though the people advanced and became very wealthy, and they developed a fine civilization and adopted all kinds of adornment and colours during the first three centuries. All goodness is in following the guidance of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and that of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs who came after him, and those rulers who followed their way after them.

By hanging lamps on them or putting electric lights around the outside or on the minarets, and hanging up flags and banners, and putting flowers on them on Eids and special occasions to decorate them and venerate them is an imitation of what the kuffaar do with their churches and places of worship, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has forbidden imitating them in their festivals and worship. End quote.

That should clear everyones mind about it.

ref: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=Flag

[Sweetness]

Putting nationislm above Islam is wrong and forbidden. Any sensible muslim should know that.

Back to the topic. read the following below:

Excerpt from Islam-qa



That should clear everyones mind about it.

ref: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=Flag

Nobody said that anyone wanted to put nationism above islam,only to fly a flag.
It is no reason to be nasty to a brother.

[Skillganon]

Nobody said that anyone wanted to put nationism above islam,only to fly a flag.
It is no reason to be nasty to a brother.

:sl:
Sis, I was not being nasty, I apologise if people thougth I was.
Anyway flying a flag above a mosque is not allowed.
:w:

[Sweetness]

:sl:
Sis, I was not being nasty, I apologise if people thougth I was.
Anyway flying a flag above a mosque is not allowed.
:w:

But yo uspoke of brothers that want to fly a flag as stupid and idiots:rolleyes: . That is pretty nasty.

[Sweetness]

:sl:
Anyway flying a flag above a mosque is not allowed.
:w:

Who says it's not allowed?

[Skillganon]

But yo uspoke of brothers that want to fly a flag as stupid and idiots:rolleyes: . That is pretty nasty.

Well it will be stupid act, because it is not permissable. Lot of people do stupid act. Even I.

I don't see why you have to put a flag on top of mosque neither do I see any reason to raise the flag outside the house of Allah(swt) to show their adherant loyalty to it?
It does not make sense.

[Skillganon]

Who says it's not allowed?

:sl:
Sis, read:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=Flag

:w:

[Sweetness]

:sl:
Sis, read:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=Flag

:w:

The link didnt take me to a specific article, just to the main page and I couldnt find it. Is it backed by hadith or the Quran?

[Skillganon]

The link didnt take me to a specific article, just to the main page and I couldnt find it. Is it backed by hadith or the Quran?

Here:

1. http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=Flag

Also you might want to read this:

2. http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=Flag

[Sweetness]

Here:

1. http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=Flag

Also you might want to read this:

2. http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=Flag

Brother, there was nothing there about flags outside a mosque.

[Skillganon]

Brother, there was nothing there about flags outside a mosque.

Than you can ask the question yourself.
The articles was not a response the specific question above.

The article should give you enough information, and hint why you should not.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

nationalism = a BIG NO....
Theres a limit to patriotism in Islam..dont know how much though..

[Sweetness]

So what do you think about flags outside the mosques in pakistan, and lebanese flags outside a mosque in Australia?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^I dont like it...why? Because the whole point of a Masjid and Islam is no differentiating. Putting a flag of Lebanon on a Masjid in "Australia" and others like that is like creating barriers. Its not just Lebanese Muslims in the Masjid. You can have Pakistani's, Indians, Arabs, Lebanese, Africans etc in ONE Masjid..so why would u put a flag of different country than what your in? Doesn't make sense...
So I think its wrong.

[Skillganon]

So what do you think about flags outside the mosques in pakistan, and lebanese flags outside a mosque in Australia?

That is the way of tribalism.

[Sweetness]

^^I dont like it...why? Because the whole point of a Masjid and Islam is no differentiating. Putting a flag of Lebanon on a Masjid in "Australia" and others like that is like creating barriers. Its not just Lebanese Muslims in the Masjid. You can have Pakistani's, Indians, Arabs, Lebanese, Africans etc in ONE Masjid..so why would u put a flag of different country than what your in? Doesn't make sense...
So I think its wrong.

I agree, I think any flag other than the the country you are in is wrong also.

[syilla]

So what do you think about flags outside the mosques in pakistan, and lebanese flags outside a mosque in Australia?

i understand you sis...i'm also surprised by their reaction on nationalism and flag (when i was new here). I guess the nationalism being potrayed are totally different then what we are used too.

i love my country too...thats all. nothing more than that. :embarrass

[Sweetness]

i love my country too...thats all. nothing more than that. :embarrass

I don't see anything wrong with it.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

You can have pride for your country...but theres a strict limitation on it.
Cause, no offense, but I knew a lot Afghani's and Palestinians and even Pakistani's have too much pride for their country, that it appeared very ignorant. It made me disgusted and want to puke. Sorry but yea, I dont like it. I like my country, but I aint crazy about it:X

[khushnood]

this whole patriotism idea is wierd.i'd rather b true to my beleifs than birthplace.nationalism just creates more barriers than bridges

[north_malaysian]

I agree, I think any flag other than the the country you are in is wrong also.

that's why almost all mosques in Malaysia (whether it's a Malay-speaking mosque, English-speaking mosque or Tamil-speaking mosque) have only Malaysian flags...

[Malaikah]

:sl:

^Why do they have any flag at all?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

this whole patriotism idea is wierd.i'd rather b true to my beleifs than birthplace.nationalism just creates more barriers than bridges

exactly!
i jus hate the idea of a flag on a Masjid...

[KAding]

this whole patriotism idea is wierd.i'd rather b true to my beleifs than birthplace.nationalism just creates more barriers than bridges

No more than religion if you ask me.

Besides, I always find it bizarre that Muslims dislike nationalism so much, since Islam is highly nationalistic. After all Islam has all the attributes of an nationalist ideology. Thats why Muslims in the West always struggle with this dual loyalty towards their current state and their nation, that is the Ummah.

Islam has:
* A common identity and a sense of brotherhood
* Common myths about heritage and history
* A desire to self-rule (the Ummah)
* It is exclusionairy, non-Muslims do not belong to the Muslim nation
* Institutions that order public life

This is everything nationalism is. Islam is indeed against all non-Islamic nationalism, but only because it has to compete with it. In the same way the French nationalism and American nationalism are essentially mutually exclusive. But that doesn't mean French nationalism is not nationalism.

[- Qatada -]

Hey kading.


Non muslims are allowed to live in the Islamic State, like i've discussed with you in the past aswell.


Islaam prohibit's assabiya though, which is tribalism/nationalism which may push a person to the extent where they place that before their religion. Which mean's we are allowed to follow our culture so long as we don't follow the aspects which contradict islaam.


We as muslims have pride in our islamic history because of the fact that it applied the law of Allaah. Which meant the muslims were allowed to practise their religion openly without feeling threatened. There is nothing wrong with being proud of that. And Allaah Almighty knows best.


Regards.

[KAding]

:sl:

^Why do they have any flag at all?

To create a sense of brotherhood I would think. To steer the collective towards a common goal. To enhance cooperation between all citizens of the nation and prevent treason.

You see, Malaysia is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious country. When you insist on putting Islam first and destroy any national identity you are essentially doing what many here are accusing nationalism of doing, namely creating rifts, cleavages and differences. Suddenly 40% of the population will not belong to the nation anymore, since they are not Muslim. They will be excluded and will start relying more on their own ethnic and religious groups and foreign countries.

Nationalism is there for a reason in countries like Malaysia. If there were no common identity, there would be considerable obstacles to cooperation. After all, how could the collective be mobilized for the good of the whole community? Why would buddhists fight and serve to protect Muslims and vise versa for example? Putting Islam first does not dissolve cleavages, it only creates new ones and in multi-ethnic and multi-religious regions it creates more of them than it dissolves.

[KAding]

Hey kading.

Non muslims are allowed to live in the Islamic State, like i've discussed with you in the past aswell.

True, and with considerable rights. But they are residents, not citizens. They do not have the same status as Muslims and there are restrictions, so they are not equal. They are by definition not part of the nation of Islam, the Ummah, they are merely residing in a territory controlled by it. Just like a Frenchman can reside in New York and not be a citizen.

Islaam prohibit's assabiya though, which is tribalism/nationalism which may push a person to the extent where they place that before their religion. Which mean's we are allowed to follow our culture so long as we don't follow the aspects which contradict islaam.

We as muslims have pride in our islamic history because of the fact that it applied the law of Allaah. Which meant the muslims were allowed to practise their religion openly without feeling threatened. There is nothing wrong with being proud of that. And Allaah Almighty knows best.

Regards.

Maybe the problem is that apparently Islamic scholars have decided to say 'tribalism=nationalism', since during the time of Mohammed, there was no such thing as nationalism. I am not sure if that is so valid. Tribes are on a very small scale, with small populations and simple social structures. Nationalism thinks bigger (like Islam), it united people not just because of local heritage, but often also because of ideology. Tribalism is incompatible with nationalism, and nationalist have frequently tried to suppress tribalism because of it. Just like Islam is doing.

[- Qatada -]

True, and with considerable rights. But they are residents, not citizens. They do not have the same status as Muslims and there are restrictions, so they are not equal. They are by definition not part of the nation of Islam, the Ummah, they are merely residing in a territory controlled by it. Just like a Frenchman can reside in New York and not be a citizen.

Maybe you could get proof for that claim? From reliable islamic sources. :)


By the way - if the non muslims who lived in the islamic state had their blood and honor protected by the muslims. Isn't that showing that their actually worth something there?

Or how about the time when Ali [the khalifah/caliph] lost his shield in the battle of Siffeen, he found out that a jew had got hold of it. He wanted to prove that it was his shield, the judge asks him for evidence, and Ali doesn't have sufficient evidence. So the muslim judge rules that the jew keeps the shield.

Maybe the problem is that apparently Islamic scholars have decided to say 'tribalism=nationalism', since during the time of Mohammed, there was no such thing as nationalism. I am not sure if that is so valid. Tribes are on a very small scale, with small populations and simple social structures. Nationalism thinks bigger (like Islam), it united people not just because of local heritage, but often also because of ideology. Tribalism is incompatible with nationalism, and nationalist have frequently tried to suppress tribalism because of it. Just like Islam is doing.

If you study the history of arabia, you'll realise that tribalism was actually more worse, for instance - tribes would fight for decades just to get a well of water off the other tribe.

Tribes may be at a smaller scale, but nationalism is just that - except its at a greater scale. Islaam broke all these barriers and we actually see muslims all uniting under one banner instead of splitting themselves up. So for instance at the time of the Messenger of Allaah, he had companions who were arab, persian, roman/white, ethiopians etc. From different backgrounds, different ethnicities etc.



Now if we're born in the UK, US, Netherlands or anywhere that doesn't mean we should challenge people from other countries. Rather Islaam unites them together, so long as they are at peace with the muslims. Whereas we as muslims in the west are told to put our nation of birth before our morals which we have through Islaam.

That's why the common question is repeatedly asked, what really is a British Muslim? Is it someone who wakes up in the morning smoking a cigar? Going to the pub to get drunk? Being a hooligan in the soccer games? Or can we have our morals which we get from Islaam while agreeing that we are british at the same time?



Regards.

[Muezzin]

And now back to flags.

[Cognescenti]

Bummer...I thought was an intersting discussion of the surrogate nationalistic features of Islam.

[north_malaysian]

Nationalism is there for a reason in countries like Malaysia. If there were no common identity, there would be considerable obstacles to cooperation. After all, how could the collective be mobilized for the good of the whole community? Why would buddhists fight and serve to protect Muslims and vise versa for example? Putting Islam first does not dissolve cleavages, it only creates new ones and in multi-ethnic and multi-religious regions it creates more of them than it dissolves.

I think it's kind of true.... because before 1969 (Racial riots happened on 13.05.1969), the Chinese and Indians dont see themselves as Malaysians... even they have Malaysian citizenship.

From what I've heard before, if Malaysian team had a competition against India or China, the Indians would support India and Chinese would support China... not Malaysia.

But nowadays, the Chinese and Indians prefer to call themselves as Malaysians.