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InToTheRain
02-21-2007, 02:54 PM
:sl: Wa Rahmatullahi Ra Barakatuhu,

Its an Issue which is confusing me and my lack of knowledge doesn't help. We say that to be a Muslim one only needs to say "Ah-haduAllah Illahah Illallah, Wa ash-hadu Anna Mohammadan, Abduhu wa Rassuluhu" (We bear witness know one worthy of worship besides Allah(SAW) and Mohammad(SAW) is the last massenger.)

But time and time again I have heard brothers and sisters refer to other brothers and sisters as kaffirs. I refrain from saying someones a Kaffir, but admit many show acts of Kufr, and Know that when some one does a Kufr action then they are a kaffir for the duration of that action(May Allah(SWT) Guide us all). But even then we do not know the intentions of a person and the knowledge they have and Allah(SWT) knows best.

But its also true when you say the Shahadah we entail with it many other Beliefs (Belief in the the Authority of Qur'an as Allah(SWT) infallible words, The Sunnah, The last Massenger(SAW), previous prophets etc

Therefore is it ok to call someone a kaffir whos actions or beliefs directly contradict/oppose a verse of the Qur'an? What if it contradicts a Hadith (Sunnah)?
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Mawaddah
02-21-2007, 03:07 PM
:sl:

First of all, we have to know what is the Definition of Beleif?

It is according to the Ahlus Sunnah "The Statement of the tongue, Belief in the heart, Actions with the limbs, it increases with good deeds and decreases with bad deeds"

So in order for the statement of the Shahaadah to be complete, we must justify it with our actions and our hearts.

Why are the hypocrites condemned to the depths of Jahannam? because even after they have testified beleif in Allah and His Messenger, and behaved as Muslims, they did not have beleif in their heart, therefore one of the conditions were lacking.

Sorry perhaps someone can complete answering your questions, I've got to run.

:w:
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Muslim Knight
02-21-2007, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
Therefore is it ok to call someone a kaffir whos actions or beliefs directly contradict/oppose a verse of the Qur'an? What if it contradicts a Hadith (Sunnah)?
I think it's innapropriate to call anyone kaffir unless that person openly defies Islam, insults Allah, His religion and Messenger and attacks the practices of Islam, basically denies any one or all the six pillars of Imaan (faith).

If a person still has the Shahadah, profess to be a Muslim but acts against the Quran and Sunnah, that person commits zulm (injustice and wickedness) and maybe categorized under fisq (sinful person). We are not allowed to call that person kaffir unless that person openly states he/she is not Muslim anymore.
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InToTheRain
02-21-2007, 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
I think it's innapropriate to call anyone kaffir unless that person openly defies Islam, insults Allah, His religion and Messenger and attacks the practices of Islam, basically denies any one or all the six pillars of Imaan (faith).

If a person still has the Shahadah, profess to be a Muslim but acts against the Quran and Sunnah, that person commits zulm (injustice and wickedness) and maybe categorized under fisq (sinful person). We are not allowed to call that person kaffir unless that person openly states he/she is not Muslim anymore.
SO if a person proclaims the Shahadah, but claims their are Imams with similiar powers to the prophets after Mohammad(SAW), or syas their are other prophets after Mohammad(SAW) are still considered Muslims who are commiting major sins and not kaffirs as it directly conradicts the Shahadah and all it entails?
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Umar001
02-21-2007, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
:sl: Wa Rahmatullahi Ra Barakatuhu,

Its an Issue which is confusing me and my lack of knowledge doesn't help. We say that to be a Muslim one only needs to say "Ah-haduAllah Illahah Illallah, Wa ash-hadu Anna Mohammadan, Abduhu wa Rassuluhu" (We bear witness know one worthy of worship besides Allah(SAW) and Mohammad(SAW) is the last massenger.)

But time and time again I have heard brothers and sisters refer to other brothers and sisters as kaffirs. I refrain from saying someones a Kaffir, but admit many show acts of Kufr, and Know that when some one does a Kufr action then they are a kaffir for the duration of that action(May Allah(SWT) Guide us all). But even then we do not know the intentions of a person and the knowledge they have and Allah(SWT) knows best.

But its also true when you say the Shahadah we entail with it many other Beliefs (Belief in the the Authority of Qur'an as Allah(SWT) infallible words, The Sunnah, The last Massenger(SAW), previous prophets etc

Therefore is it ok to call someone a kaffir whos actions or beliefs directly contradict/oppose a verse of the Qur'an? What if it contradicts a Hadith (Sunnah)?


First, we need to know what the Shahada means, most people say it means 'There is no God but Allah...' but this is the translation not the MEANING.

The first part;

There is noone who has the right to be worshiped except Allah, and whatsoever is worshiped besides Allah then it is done so with falsehood.

Proof is 22:62 and 47:19

The second is;

There is noone rightfully worthy of being followed except the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and if anyone other than the messenger of Allah is followed in that which he has no evidence for, then verily this following is done so with falsehood.

Proof is 7:3, 4:65 and 33:36.

So someone should not contradict those if they are muslim.

Coming to whether you can call someone a kafir if they contradict the Qu'ran and Sunnah.

First we should know that there is a Minimum level of obligatory knowledge for everyone, this may vary from person to person, a person who is 7 or over it is obligatory for him to know the rulings on Prayer, since he has to pray and so on.

You might come to a person and say to him, 'You have to believe in the Torah' and he might say 'No thats for the Jews' now, would that be kufr? That depends on the person's knowledge, you see, if you show him the ayah, that he has to believe in the Messengers and Books and then you show him that Moses was a messenger and so forth, and someone explains this to him, then HE HAS TO BELIEVE IT, if he does not then that is kufr, but if he did not know, maybe he had not read that part of the Qu'ran, and he denies it BECAUSE he has not seen proof, then that is not kufr IN SOME MATTERS, there are matters which IGNORANCE IS NOT AN ESCUSE.

So the proof must be established and shown to the person first.

Also if you go past a place and you see someone making sujud to another person or at a grave, does this mean the person has commited kufr, well again maybe the person did not know the place was a grave yard, so I mean we should be careful on these matters.

And Allah knows best.
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Muslim Knight
02-21-2007, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
SO if a person proclaims the Shahadah, but claims their are Imams with similiar powers to the prophets after Mohammad(SAW), or syas their are other prophets after Mohammad(SAW) are still considered Muslims who are commiting major sins and not kaffirs as it directly conradicts the Shahadah and all it entails?
As long as that person commits no shirk, that person can't be called kaffir.

Thieves or fornicators are acting against Quran and Sunnah because theft and zinaa have been expressly forbidden in the Quran and in the Hadiths. Yet these two crimes, however sinful, do not automatically cause the offenders to become apostates.

Bro Al Habeshi has explained better than me.
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Umar001
02-21-2007, 04:25 PM
Yes I think there is an obvious difference between commiting a crime and knowing it is wrong or commiting a crime and thinking it is ok.

Some people say the Qu'ran is not all here, and that only some people have it, this contradicts Qu'ran and if proof is shown, I am guessing by a scholar, I mean this should be properly establsihed, not Jamil goes to the house shows him the ayah and says 'YOUR A KAFIR' it should be done properly, then if the person still says the Qu'ran is not here then they are denying the truth of the Qu'ran.


But at the same time, we can say, what about the people who commit bidda, are they not contradicting the Qu'ran? BEcause Allah says the religion is perfect, by them adding things it is like saying 'we are making it more perfect' in some cases that can be kufr. But of course not all people who commit biddah are kafir.

It is really something which needs scholars in my view.

And Allah knows best.
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InToTheRain
02-21-2007, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi


First, we need to know what the Shahada means, most people say it means 'There is no God but Allah...' but this is the translation not the MEANING.

The first part;

There is noone who has the right to be worshiped except Allah, and whatsoever is worshiped besides Allah then it is done so with falsehood.

Proof is 22:62 and 47:19

The second is;

There is noone rightfully worthy of being followed except the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and if anyone other than the messenger of Allah is followed in that which he has no evidence for, then verily this following is done so with falsehood.

Proof is 7:3, 4:65 and 33:36.

So someone should not contradict those if they are muslim.

Coming to whether you can call someone a kafir if they contradict the Qu'ran and Sunnah.

First we should know that there is a Minimum level of obligatory knowledge for everyone, this may vary from person to person, a person who is 7 or over it is obligatory for him to know the rulings on Prayer, since he has to pray and so on.

You might come to a person and say to him, 'You have to believe in the Torah' and he might say 'No thats for the Jews' now, would that be kufr? That depends on the person's knowledge, you see, if you show him the ayah, that he has to believe in the Messengers and Books and then you show him that Moses was a messenger and so forth, and someone explains this to him, then HE HAS TO BELIEVE IT, if he does not then that is kufr, but if he did not know, maybe he had not read that part of the Qu'ran, and he denies it BECAUSE he has not seen proof, then that is not kufr IN SOME MATTERS, there are matters which IGNORANCE IS NOT AN ESCUSE.

So the proof must be established and shown to the person first.

Also if you go past a place and you see someone making sujud to another person or at a grave, does this mean the person has commited kufr, well again maybe the person did not know the place was a grave yard, so I mean we should be careful on these matters.

And Allah knows best.
Jazak Allah for your long response AKhi, And I agree with you :) and I refrain from calling such people kaffirs as I have previously mentioned. In cases where they are ignorant, Allahuallom.

But what if that person knows what is said in the Qur'an, believes in the Qur'an but also gives the same priority to other books other then the Quran? what if the person knows what the Qur'an says, but believes in stuff which contradicts what they learn in the Qur'an and Sunnah? Do we say they are sinning, or do people have the right to call them Disbelievers?
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Umar001
02-21-2007, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
Jazak Allah for your long response AKhi, And I agree with you :) and I refrain from calling such people kaffirs as I have previously mentioned. In cases where they are ignorant, Allahuallom.

But what if that person knows what is said in the Qur'an, believes in the Qur'an but also gives the same priority to other books other then the Quran? what if the person knows what the Qur'an says, but believes in stuff which contradicts what they learn in the Qur'an and Sunnah? Do we say they are sinning, or do people have the right to call them Disbelievers?
Allah knows best, maybe they have ignorant reasons.

For example, they might not understand it properly. This would come down to whether ignorance is an escuse.

And if they know, but they keep doing it, then it would depend on what they are doing. For example, someone who knows they have to fast, but does not, then I do not think he is a kafir. But if he denies the obligatory of fasting then I think he would be.

So if your saying brother, that the person says Allah is not one, then thats kufr, but I dont know if he is a kafir, but then again that is something that goes against the normal intelect too, i.e. fitrah so ignorance aint an escuse. Hmmm.

This is something really tricky to go into.

As for your question, I will leave it am gettingworried I'll say something wrong.


Eesa.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
02-21-2007, 09:44 PM
:sl:

or syas their are other prophets after Mohammad(SAW)
This is an act of Kufr which takes a person outside the fold of Islam. Proof is the fact that Abu Bakr r.a. fought Musaylamah and his followers because he claimed to be Prophet and his followers considered him a Prophet.

Also declaring Takfeer is a very heavy matter. There are rules and pre-conditions for it which must be met and all blocks to it removed before a person can declare another person a Kafir. Secondly, we do not declare a person a Kafir simply because they have commited a major sin. Takfir is matter which should not be dealt with by the laymen, and it should be left to the Ulema.

I suggest you listen to this lecture Insha'Allah, it explains the matter very well:
http://www.islamhouse.com/en/audio/mp3/en5380.mp3

From:
http://www.islamhouse.com/en/islamle...qidalislam.htm

:w:
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