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YamahaR1
07-19-2005, 04:18 PM
Just wondering what my muslim friends think of this. I know many here don't read "western" news but this article was posted today and it certainly peaked my interest. From this story, it seems that the muslim world is divided. What are your thoughts?

***********************

Victim ordered to wed rapist
By Shaikh Azizur Rahman
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
July 19, 2005


BOMBAY -- Hard-line Islamic clerics in a northern Indian village have declared that a woman's 10-year-old marriage was nullified when her father-in-law raped her -- and ordered the mother of five to marry the rapist.
The fatwa, or religious edict, was issued by Darool Uloom Deoband, South Asia's most powerful Islamic theological school known for promoting a radical brand of Islam that is said to have inspired the Taliban in Afghanistan.
The decision has outraged both Muslim and Hindu leaders and prompted a fierce debate that has dominated the front pages of national newspapers across India.
The fatwa ordered Imrana Ilahi, 28, to separate from her husband and treat him as her son.
"She had a physical relationship with her father-in-law, and it nullifies her marriage," said Mohammad Masood Madani, a cleric at the theological school. He said it made no difference whether -(censored)- . The village council then decreed that Mrs. Ilahi would have to marry her father-in-law.
Feminists and liberal Muslims reacted with fury, staging nationwide street protests.
But Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mulayam Singh on June 29 supported the fatwa, saying: "The decision of the Muslim religious leaders in the Imrana case must have been taken after a lot of thought. ... The religious leaders are all very learned and they understand the Muslim community and its sentiments."
The rape took place June 4 in the village of Charthawal in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh, when Mrs. Ilahi's husband, Noor Ilahi, was away.
When Mr. Ilahi, a brick kiln laborer, learned of the attack, the village court instructed him to divorce his wife.
But Mr. Ilahi, 32, told his wife: "My father is dirty and you are clean. I still love you and I cannot desert you." Mrs. Ilahi, with her husband and five children, sneaked out of Charthawal and took shelter in Kukra, the village of her parents.
Mrs. Ilahi received another rude shock when the All India Muslim Personal Law Board, the country's most influential Muslim umbrella organization, endorsed the punishment meted out by Darool Uloom Deoband.
"The fact that the woman was 'used' by her husband's blood relative makes her [unclean] for her husband and there is no way she can be allowed to live with him," the law board said.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050...1059-2058r.htm
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shah786
07-19-2005, 04:42 PM
Salaam,
That can't be right! Could some please look into this, it seems unfair. See this link for Islamic ruling: http://www.crescentlife.com/articles...erspective.htm
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Genius
07-19-2005, 05:48 PM
Crazy stuff, rapists are real sick people and they shouldn't be rewarded like this
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-19-2005, 06:14 PM
http://www.islamonline.net/askabouti...uestionID=2681
http://www.whyislam.org/877/FAQ/q11.asp

Many scholars apply the punishment of hirabah (armed robbery) for rape. And only the rapist is punished.

:w:
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minaz
07-19-2005, 07:27 PM
I can't imagine murder, but when i hear of rape (which is just intolerable) i can't believe how bad murder is.
Posted by Ansar
Many scholars apply the punishment of hirabah (armed robbery) for rape
Well i personally think it should have the same punishment as murder
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Muezzin
07-19-2005, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
Well i personally think it should have the same punishment as murder
I kind of agree.

Or at least a castration. That'll deter 'em.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-19-2005, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
I can't imagine murder, but when i hear of rape (which is just intolerable) i can't believe how bad murder is.

Well i personally think it should have the same punishment as murder
:sl:
Do you know what the punishment for hirabah is? Depending on the severity of the situation it is either Death, Crucifixion, Hands and Feet cut off, or banishment/imprisonment. (see verse 5:33).

So it can often result in the exact same punishment as murder. The system of Allah is indeed perfect.
:w:
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minaz
07-19-2005, 08:40 PM
The system indeed works, just like the u.s. constitution, however like the u.s. constitution how many times do we see repeat breeches of it?
p.s out of interest, when was the last crucifixion in any Islamic country does anyone know?
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aamirsaab
07-19-2005, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I kind of agree.

Or at least a castration. That'll deter 'em.
100% agreed. Filthy gits.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-19-2005, 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
p.s out of interest, when was the last crucifixion in any Islamic country does anyone know?
Although Crucifixion was prescribed, Muslim scholars like Imaam Maalik said that any case where it had been actually implemented was unheard of. Evidently, it worked efficiently as a deterrent. In modern times I am not sure about crucifixion, or even if it is being implemented correctly. The only sources on this information are anti-islamic, which we cannot trust.

:w:
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Bittersteel
07-20-2005, 12:20 PM
crazy stuff no doubt.its NOT THE ISLAMIC LAW! SHEWAS RAPED!!isn't there a difference a between the two.Some Islamic body should do something about it.Why did the idiots reward the rapist instead of punishing him?coz they are retards!
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Bittersteel
07-20-2005, 12:33 PM
well about Bangladesh I decline to comment.All I know is that there are more than 50 rapes per day across the country.
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Hash
What do you expect when the government rules by other than shariah?
Do you honestly expect me to believe that no wrong doing or criminal behavior happens in countries with governments who do rule by shariah?
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Khattab
07-20-2005, 04:41 PM
No country has fully implemented the shariah at the moment, but crime in saudi arabia is one of the lowest in any country. Crime can never be non-existent there are black sheep in every community, but anyone who implements the full shariah not bits and pieces like saudi will see crime fall drastically.
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Khattab
No country has fully implemented the shariah at the moment, but crime in saudi arabia is one of the lowest in any country. Crime can never be non-existent there are black sheep in every community, but anyone who implements the full shariah not bits and pieces like saudi will see crime fall drastically.
Maybe. Maybe not. My point is that you'll never get me to buy that Shariah is the end of evil of any kind. There always has been and always will be evil. No religion or government will eradicate that. To make it sound like implementing Shariah as the cure to rid the world of all evil is inaccurate in my humble opinion.
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Khattab
07-20-2005, 05:16 PM
Did you read what I just said, crime can never be fully eradicated it will always exists no matter where and what system is in place ALL evil will not go, but with the shariah implemented it is the best system to keep crime figures as low as they can possibly get.
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Mr. Baldy
07-20-2005, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by YamahaR1
Maybe. Maybe not. My point is that you'll never get me to buy that Shariah is the end of evil of any kind. There always has been and always will be evil. No religion or government will eradicate that. To make it sound like implementing Shariah as the cure to rid the world of all evil is inaccurate in my humble opinion.
aslaam alkyum,

ok let me ask you this. lets say there was a perfect system, faultless in any way, and then there was a system riddled with faults and 'blemishes'. would you not want to see the world under the perfect system?

also its not t he people who make the system perfect, becaue that in itself would be a fault, rather the system is flawless regardless of the people. the khilafah system is perfect, becsue it was not designed by a human, rather it was designed and perfected by allah, "this day i have perfected your deen for you" [TMQ]. allah is perfect, therfore the system (khilafah) designed by allah is inevitably perfect, no?

wa alkyum aslaam
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Bittersteel
07-20-2005, 05:58 PM
What do you expect when the government rules by other than shariah?
"liberated " women don't want to wear the hijab in Bangladesh.They think its some type of oppression or seclusion.They discourage to wear it.
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Khattab
Did you read what I just said.....
I did. Even though I quoted you, I was still addressing Hash's comments which made it seem like only bad things happen in governments that are not governed by Shariah law.
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
allah is perfect, therfore the system (khilafah) designed by allah is inevitably perfect, no?

wa alkyum aslaam
Yes, Allah is perfect.

Are you telling me that khilifah (and forgive me, I am not familiar with all terms here yet) is something that was actually written by the hand of Allah himself?
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minaz
07-20-2005, 07:47 PM
Allah gave humanity the perfect system in the qu'ran, which was sent to the prophet mohammed (peace be upon him) via Angel jibril/Gabriel.
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Mr. Baldy
07-20-2005, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by YamahaR1
Yes, Allah is perfect.

Are you telling me that khilifah (and forgive me, I am not familiar with all terms here yet) is something that was actually written by the hand of Allah himself?
aslaam alkyum,

i was not aware allah had hands?

but yes allah designed, made, wrote, dictated, e.t.c the khilafah system. the proof is that it is perfect.

wa alykum aslaam
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
aslaam alkyum,

i was not aware allah had hands?
I was not aware that allah didn't have hands. Have you seen allah?
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minaz
07-20-2005, 08:17 PM
I think I should expand a little if I may Mr. Baldy, no offence I know what you mean, but to non-Muslims such as YamahaR1 I have to because it makes your statement look arrogant. We don’t' blindly accept this is perfect, Islam itself after years of learning (for myself), I can see it is perfect and more importantly see that it can work in practise. Of course it can fail with nut heads like seen in certain members of the Taliban, but on the whole it's flawless. Anywho back to expanding on Baldy, like your religion YamahaR1, the injil/bible Allah/god gave it to Isa (a.s.)/Jesus as his word. However not that I want to start a whole offensive religious argument, but Muslims believe that the injil/bible was corrupted by mankind, therefore invalidating the religion as the true one - evidence in the Qu'ran, history itself and common sense - (to some degree no offence intended),
YamahaR1 I leave you with this quote from the Qu'ran: Surah 109
O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.
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Mr. Baldy
07-20-2005, 08:18 PM
aslaam alkyum,

I was not aware that allah didn't have hands.
touche

wa alkyum aslaam
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
However not that I want to start a whole offensive religious argument, but Muslims believe that the injil/bible was corrupted by mankind, therefore invalidating the religion as the true one - .........
No offense taken. I have no problem with people who do not believe as I do. Where I take offense is when people want to force their religious beliefs on me. It's one of those "western" things that I'm rather proud of....freedom to believe and worship as I want.
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butterflylady
07-20-2005, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Aziz
"liberated " women don't want to wear the hijab in Bangladesh.They think its some type of oppression or seclusion.They discourage to wear it.
Especially since Bangladesh women fought for the liberation of their country with extreme bravery. It is only recently that the subject has even come up.
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minaz
07-20-2005, 08:33 PM
Where I take offense is when people want to force their religious beliefs on me
I'm quite shocked, would you mind expanding upon that at all please?
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
Allah gave humanity the perfect system in the qu'ran, which was sent to the prophet mohammed (peace be upon him) via Angel jibril/Gabriel.
This is where I have an issue. I don't think human beings are perfect. Maybe the prohet Mohammed injected some of his own thoughts while translating allah's wishes? I don't know. I wasn't there I'm not trying to be disrespectful to your religion at all....really I'm not. I just think human beings are imperfect and therefore, capable of mistakes and of injecting their own spin on things. I feel the same way about any book written by the hand of man.

And, just look at the various opinions on this board regarding the muslim stance on various issues. Is it because there are some who are not following their religion correctly 100%? Is it because different people interpret statements differently? Is it because some people follow things that make sense and use their noggin to make the best choice when something doesn't seem right? Is it all of the above?

It just seems to me that people tout their religious beliefs and follow them hard lined on some things and not others? Why is that? And, I'm talking about all religions...not just Islam.

I once read...."Is man made in the image of God or is God made in the image of man?"
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
I'm quite shocked, would you mind expanding upon that at all please?
Yes. In the U.S., we have people from all religious beliefs. I choose christianity, specifically Methodist. There are catholics, episcopalians, buddhists, church of scientology, Mormons, Jewish, atheists, and others. Here, we are free to worship how we wish.

From what I gather where Islam is concerned, it seems that muslims prefer a government that is reflective of their religious values. Well, that's great if everyone in your country believes as you do. Our forefathers left their home countries for various reasons...one was to have the freedom to worship as they wanted. Today, we maintain that. We believe in separation of church and state.

There is a big debate in our country regarding homosexual marriage. While I personally think that homosexuality is sinful, it is not illegal to be a homosexual in this country. And, if they choose a partner that they want to marry, then I do not think that my religious beliefs should trump their right to marry if they want. That would be forcing my religious beliefs and values on someone else. As long as health care coverage, and other rights given to heterosexual couples has legal ties with marriage, I can not deny this right to homosexuals even though I do not agree with their lifestyle.

Another example, if my child attends a public school, I do not want a teacher at that school openly discussing their religious beliefs with my children (unless they asked a question). I, as the parent, am responsible for the spirtual growth of my child. I do not want someone teaching them about theirs unless they are also teaching my child about all religions....I see a difference there between trying to convert someone and simply teaching tolerance and understanding.

Also, there is also much discussion about displaying the ten commandments in public places. Is it fair to display items such as this in a public facility where we all pay taxes to support it if we don't all believe it?

I hope I've explained it well enough.
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minaz
07-20-2005, 08:56 PM
Maybe the prohet Mohammed injected some of his own thoughts while translating allah's wishes?
Allah is the all powerful, all knowing, all wise, therefore he wouldn't give the prophecy down to any old joe bloggs. This is true in all his prophets, however the only people who inject their own thoughts are non-prophets, you just have to look at the bible Matthew, Mark, Luke and John naming a few for example

I'm not trying to be disrespectful to your religion at all....really I'm not.
Thankyou
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minaz
07-20-2005, 09:01 PM
Expanding on what you said about the freedom of the U.S., what is the impact over there or even on you about President Bush nominating John Roberts as a supreme court judge? I mean he isn't hardly a Thurgood Marshall :p
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
This is true in all his prophets, however the only people who inject their own thoughts are non-prophets, you just have to look at the bible Matthew, Mark, Luke and John naming a few for example
It's interesting that you would say that since the bible is very similar to what I've seen of the Koran. Just curious, have you ever read a bible? Have you read any of the scripture according to Mark, Luke or John?
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minaz
07-20-2005, 09:21 PM
lol I've been going to a catholic school for the past 7 years, and did Catholicism throughout and did it as one of my final subjects for gcse. Yes the bible is very similar, however the Qu'ran is just i dunno how to explain it - "bullet proof". As i stated before no religious hatred intended but when I studied the 4 gospels I couldn't come to grips with one saying (tell me if I’m wrong), one saying "colt" whilst other saying donkey, "eye for an eye" old testament "turn the other cheek" in new or other contradicting things. Of course they tend to agree overall but it's not accurate like the Qu'ran. Also the Qu'ran in my possession is the same one that was revealed to the prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) over 1400 years ago. The bible however has been changed from part to part, and i don't mean in the terms of Darren Brown :p
I have many Catholic friends and like you some are religious, and like you we do debate and like you I enjoy 'trading' and wanting to gain knowledge of both our religions :)
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YamahaR1
07-20-2005, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
Expanding on what you said about the freedom of the U.S., what is the impact over there or even on you about President Bush nominating John Roberts as a supreme court judge? I mean he isn't hardly a Thurgood Marshall :p
Well, I'd say the impact is viewed differently depending on where you fall in your political beliefs. The liberal community seems to be unhappy. The conservative community is happy. Nothing earth shattering there....I never expected Bush to pick anyone but a conservative. If Kerry was in office and appointed a Supreme Court nominee, I would've expected him to pick a liberal and then the conservatives and/or Republicans would find issues to complain about. As for me, I've been pretty disgusted with some of the rulings by the Supreme Court as of late, specifically where eminent domain is concerned so considering that my political beliefs are very conservative where fiscal policy is concerned, I am glad to see a conservative supreme court nominee. Personally, I like to see balance overall though. Only through representation from all shades of the political spectrum do you truly get the best solution.
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ahkar shams
07-20-2005, 09:59 PM
that article is just there to diss darul uloom deoband its not hard to beleive what people would say to take things down, and in that article says the "South Asia's most powerful Islamic theological school known for promoting a radical brand of Islam that is said to have inspired the Taliban in Afghanistan". dont you think the americans and the western world would be all over that,
in my opinion that article is a total waste of time and rubbish .

darul uloom deoband have great ulema and im sure they would handle the issue in the right and islamic manner
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Bittersteel
07-20-2005, 10:43 PM
Especially since Bangladesh women fought for the liberation of their country with extreme bravery. It is only recently that the subject has even come up.
well yes but they practically got no respect for Moulanas or Mullahs etc.They make fun of someone pious and religious.Teenagers have lost morality and has become almost westernized.
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Muhammad
07-20-2005, 10:54 PM
:sl:

May I remind all members to stick to the topic Insha'Allaah, or make seperate threads.

Jazakallahu Khayr,

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-20-2005, 10:58 PM
:sl:
Hello Yamaha,
Originally Posted by YamahaR1
Maybe. Maybe not. My point is that you'll never get me to buy that Shariah is the end of evil of any kind.
The first point to note is what Br. Khattab expressed very nicely, that there is no country today which can claim to be accurately implementing the Shariah.

The second point to note is that before you can make a judgement about something you have to know what it is. If you don't understand Shariah law, then how can we expect you to "buy that Shariah is the end of evil of any kind." ??

Thirdly, the Shariah law is a divine system of law revealed by Our Creator who knows human beings better than they know themselves. Hence, He has revealed to them the most appropriate system of Law.

To begin your understanding of Shariah law, particularly the criminal law as that seems to be the subject of discussion, I would recommend the following link:
http://islamtoday.net/english/discov...&sub_cat_id=48

Are you telling me that khilifah (and forgive me, I am not familiar with all terms here yet) is something that was actually written by the hand of Allah himself?
The khilafa was a system decreed by God Himself, yes. However, the latter part of your comment is inaccurate due to lack of understanding the methods of revelation.

Originally Posted by Yamaha
Originally Posted by minaz
However not that I want to start a whole offensive religious argument, but Muslims believe that the injil/bible was corrupted by mankind, therefore invalidating the religion as the true one - .........
No offense taken.
And why should there be? :brother: The previous revelations were entrusted to their respective nations to preserve, but the challenge for followers of the Qur'an is not to preserve it (for God has promised to do so) but instead to spread its light to all humanity.

The Bible also speaks of the corruption:
Jeremiah 8:8 'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

And for an Islamic perspective, check here:
http://islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1798

We'll save that discussion for the comparative religion section.

I have no problem with people who do not believe as I do. Where I take offense is when people want to force their religious beliefs on me. It's one of those "western" things that I'm rather proud of....freedom to believe and worship as I want.
Its not just a "western" thing. Its an Islamic thing too...
Qur'an 2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error.

This is where I have an issue. I don't think human beings are perfect. Maybe the prohet Mohammed injected some of his own thoughts while translating allah's wishes?
Such a notion would suggest that God was incapable of protecting His message. God clearly refutes such ideas in the Qur'an so that there may be no doubts:

69:43-48 (This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds. And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath).
But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing.


But let's say you wish to argue that Prophet Muhammad pbuh wrote the Qur'an himself. In response to such an argument, I suggest you read the article here:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/I...rticle08.shtml
I think you will find that site fascinating, insha'Allah.

Another good site is the following:
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/news/

I don't know. I wasn't there I'm not trying to be disrespectful to your religion at all....really I'm not. I just think human beings are imperfect and therefore, capable of mistakes and of injecting their own spin on things.
God does not pick any random human being for His divine revelation. The Prophets were the best servants of God ever created. They were infallible in the sense that they could commit no major sins, however, as human beings they may have made minor mistakes but they could do nothing but deliver their message to the people in the purest form. We can discuss this in more detail in the comparative religion section.

And, just look at the various opinions on this board regarding the muslim stance on various issues.
As the Qur'an says:
Say: "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know?

Onviously you cannot consider the opinions of the average joe on equal footing with those who have studied Islam and are capable of supporting their views with the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Is it because there are some who are not following their religion correctly 100%? Is it because different people interpret statements differently? Is it because some people follow things that make sense and use their noggin to make the best choice when something doesn't seem right? Is it all of the above?
To be honest, most often it is due to ignorance.

I once read...."Is man made in the image of God or is God made in the image of man?"
I would say neither. The Creator is totally unlike and far greater than His creation.

From what I gather where Islam is concerned, it seems that muslims prefer a government that is reflective of their religious values. Well, that's great if everyone in your country believes as you do.
Actually, an Islamic government entails that minorities are protected and they are not harassed for their views.

As Dr. M. Hamidullah writes:
When the Prophet Mohammed settled down in Medina, he found there complete anarchy, the region having never known before either a State or a king to unite the tribes torn by internecine feuds. In just a few weeks, he succeeded in rallying all the inhabitants of the region into order. He constituted a city state, in which Muslims, Jews, pagan Arabs and also probably a small number of Christians, all entered into a statal organism by means of a social contract. The constitutional law of this first 'Muslim' State - which was the confederacy as a sequence of the multiplicity of the population groups - has come down to us in toto, and we read therein not only in clause 25: "to Muslims their religion, and to Jews their religion," or, "that there would be benevolence and justice," but even the unexpected passage in the same clause 25: "the Jews . . . are a community (in alliance) with - according Ibn Hisham and in the version of Abu-'Ubaid, a community (forming part) of - the believers (i.e., Muslims)." The very fact that, at the time of the constitution of this city-state, the autonomous Jewish villages acceded of their free will to the confederal State, and recognized Muhammad as their supreme political head, implies in our opinion that the non-Muslim subjects possessed the right of votes in the election of the head of the Muslim State, at least in so far as the political life of the country was concerned. (Hamidullah, Introduction to Islam, paragraphs 414-416)

And the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him said):

"No Jew is to be annoyed because of their Judaic faith."

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

For more info on the Islamic goverment refer to the following:
http://islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1994

For more info on the noble character of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), please refer to the following:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/I...24/index.shtml

Our forefathers left their home countries for various reasons...one was to have the freedom to worship as they wanted. Today, we maintain that. We believe in separation of church and state.
Note that such a view contradicts the Bible.

There is a big debate in our country regarding homosexual marriage. While I personally think that homosexuality is sinful, it is not illegal to be a homosexual in this country. And, if they choose a partner that they want to marry, then I do not think that my religious beliefs should trump their right to marry if they want. That would be forcing my religious beliefs and values on someone else.
Do you not believe that God was truthful when He said that homosexuality was a sin? Are you not disobeying God by discarding His decree to follow the whims of society?

As long as health care coverage, and other rights given to heterosexual couples has legal ties with marriage, I can not deny this right to homosexuals even though I do not agree with their lifestyle.
Even if God commands you?

Another example, if my child attends a public school, I do not want a teacher at that school openly discussing their religious beliefs with my children (unless they asked a question). I, as the parent, am responsible for the spirtual growth of my child. I do not want someone teaching them about theirs unless they are also teaching my child about all religions....I see a difference there between trying to convert someone and simply teaching tolerance and understanding.
You have suprisingly secular views. Do you realize that such a view necessitates that all religions are false? If even one religion is true then it must be preached to the world.

Nevertheless, I agree that we must respect the views of others. However, we should distinguish between respecting other views and disobeying the commands of God.

It's interesting that you would say that since the bible is very similar to what I've seen of the Koran. Just curious, have you ever read a bible? Have you read any of the scripture according to Mark, Luke or John?
I know the question wasn't asked to me, but yes I have. And I would like to mention that the Bible is fundamentally a different type of religious scripture since it was inspired while the Qur'an was revealed word-for-word.

Originally Posted by ButterflyLady
Especially since Bangladesh women fought for the liberation of their country with extreme bravery. It is only recently that the subject has even come up.
Hi Butterflylady (welcome back :) )
That's the whole paradox of liberation. It is the hijaab that liberates a woman from being enslaved to the desires of society.

For more info on Hijaab please read here.

To understand how Islam has liberated women, please read here and here.

:w:
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YamahaR1
07-21-2005, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:
Do you not believe that God was truthful when He said that homosexuality was a sin? Are you not disobeying God by discarding His decree to follow the whims of society?.....................................
You have suprisingly secular views. Do you realize that such a view necessitates that all religions are false? If even one religion is true then it must be preached to the world.
First thank you for the information you shared and the links. Very informative.

Second, while homosexuality is a sin by my religious views, I am not the one committing the act. Another person may not view it as a sin. It is not place to judge another nor force my religious beliefs on them.

My views do not necessitate that all religions are false. My views are that there is no religion that is "better" than another. From my stand point, as long as someone is living a life to the best of their ability in a way that God would be pleased, then that is good enough for me. I don't care if they call themselves a muslim, a buddhist, a christian, etc. I don't even think that someone has to be a subscriber to an organized religion to live a life that God would approve of. You can be a "good" person without being part of a particular religion. I know that prayer said 5 times a day is something that muslims participate in. I know that many Catholics say the rosary daily. But following religious ritual, in my opinion, doesn't mean that someone is living a life that God would approve of. I've seen plenty of people who call themselves "religious"....they show up for church services, etc. and then walk right out and start sinning again. They put up a good show but at the end of the day, they think of noone but themselves. Then, I've seen others who have never entered a church, who may not pray regularly, who bend over backwards to help their fellow man. They show love, not hate to those who are different. They are honest, law abiding citizens. I just don't buy that God does not look upon them with pride and love for the good works that they do simply because they do not follow some religious edict to the letter of the law. And, because I believe we are all God's children and that God is forgiving, I simply do not buy that God would ever turn away anyone simply because they were/were not part of organized religion in some form or fashion.
Reply

Rose
07-21-2005, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by YamahaR1
Just wondering what my muslim friends think of this. I know many here don't read "western" news but this article was posted today and it certainly peaked my interest. From this story, it seems that the muslim world is divided. What are your thoughts?

***********************

Victim ordered to wed rapist
By Shaikh Azizur Rahman
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
July 19, 2005


BOMBAY -- Hard-line Islamic clerics in a northern Indian village have declared that a woman's 10-year-old marriage was nullified when her father-in-law raped her -- and ordered the mother of five to marry the rapist.
The fatwa, or religious edict, was issued by Darool Uloom Deoband, South Asia's most powerful Islamic theological school known for promoting a radical brand of Islam that is said to have inspired the Taliban in Afghanistan.
The decision has outraged both Muslim and Hindu leaders and prompted a fierce debate that has dominated the front pages of national newspapers across India.
The fatwa ordered Imrana Ilahi, 28, to separate from her husband and treat him as her son.
"She had a physical relationship with her father-in-law, and it nullifies her marriage," said Mohammad Masood Madani, a cleric at the theological school. He said it made no difference whether -(censored)- . The village council then decreed that Mrs. Ilahi would have to marry her father-in-law.
Feminists and liberal Muslims reacted with fury, staging nationwide street protests.
But Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mulayam Singh on June 29 supported the fatwa, saying: "The decision of the Muslim religious leaders in the Imrana case must have been taken after a lot of thought. ... The religious leaders are all very learned and they understand the Muslim community and its sentiments."
The rape took place June 4 in the village of Charthawal in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh, when Mrs. Ilahi's husband, Noor Ilahi, was away.
When Mr. Ilahi, a brick kiln laborer, learned of the attack, the village court instructed him to divorce his wife.
But Mr. Ilahi, 32, told his wife: "My father is dirty and you are clean. I still love you and I cannot desert you." Mrs. Ilahi, with her husband and five children, sneaked out of Charthawal and took shelter in Kukra, the village of her parents.
Mrs. Ilahi received another rude shock when the All India Muslim Personal Law Board, the country's most influential Muslim umbrella organization, endorsed the punishment meted out by Darool Uloom Deoband.
"The fact that the woman was 'used' by her husband's blood relative makes her [unclean] for her husband and there is no way she can be allowed to live with him," the law board said.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050...1059-2058r.htm

:sl:

Lack of KNOWLEDGE is certainly very dangerous in the realm of law, justice and equity and if this article reflects what truely happened then my heart goes out to the victim and her family inchAllah.

Ok since when does the victim become unclean for being raped by a dirty old man astaghfirullah? If her father-in-law was a woman he would have been killed by now for shaming the honor of the family (which incidentally is haram). The law of hirabah is surely applicable in this case which I understand means the death penalty because it is a melicious attack on a happily married woman with a motive to harm and terrorise her in order to satisfy some dirty mans carnal desires. If the village council decreed that the victim marry her rapist then we should all be very worried about the kind of people who think they are qualified to issue willy nilly fatwas left right and centre and lead our ummah. As for preaching a radical brand of Islam, is not radicalism and extremism against the middle way recommended by the prophet sws???? Darool Uloom is clearly trying to take the law of almighty Allah into their own hands and subjective rulings of this nature both legitimise incest and mock our our just deen which will leave no one unaccounted for.

Wa Allahu 'allam


:w: :sister:
Reply

Khattab
07-21-2005, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by YamahaR1

My views do not necessitate that all religions are false. My views are that there is no religion that is "better" than another. From my stand point, as long as someone is living a life to the best of their ability in a way that God would be pleased, then that is good enough for me. I don't care if they call themselves a muslim, a buddhist, a christian, etc. I don't even think that someone has to be a subscriber to an organized religion to live a life that God would approve of. You can be a "good" person without being part of a particular religion. I know that prayer said 5 times a day is something that muslims participate in. I know that many Catholics say the rosary daily.
Hi Yahmaha,

With you being a christian, you say no religion is better than another. As muslims we beleive that the Torah and Gospel where books revealed by Allah (SWT) but have undergone changes by the hands of men, as for the Hindhu scriptures and Buddhist scriptures we cannot say yes they where books of God or no they werent books of God as we have not been informed regarding them.

But as a christian do you then accept people setting up partners with God? As the first commandmenet says "I am the Lord thy God and thou shalt not have other gods besides me." Or do you accept people making up images of God and worshipping them besides the Almighty "Thou shalt not make for thyself any graven image." Surley you must be going against the fundamentals of your christian beleifs if you accept and condone such things?


Originally Posted by YamahaR1
I've seen plenty of people who call themselves "religious"....they show up for church services, etc. and then walk right out and start sinning again.
Is this not got something to do with the christian doctrine though, where Jesus (PBUH) died for the sins? If they accept Jesus (PBUH) as there saviour then they are "saved". So they feel they can do what they like as they dont have anything to answer for.

Originally Posted by YamahaR1
Then, I've seen others who have never entered a church, who may not pray regularly, who bend over backwards to help their fellow man. They show love, not hate to those who are different. They are honest, law abiding citizens. I just don't buy that God does not look upon them with pride and love for the good works that they do simply because they do not follow some religious edict to the letter of the law. And, because I believe we are all God's children and that God is forgiving, I simply do not buy that God would ever turn away anyone simply because they were/were not part of organized religion in some form or fashion.
What good is there work if they deny Allah (SWT) and set partners up with him? It is the islamic beleif the people who after recieving the clear message of Islam ie oneness of God Almighty, he alone is to be worshipped without any partner, beleif in all the prophets and the last and final prophet Muhammed (SWH), and the revealed books and the Qur'an as the final and last message to mankind, if after the message they reject it and continue in disbeleif they will have no reward in the hereafter. If they do good deeds (ie helping people etc) after this they will only get there reward in this life, even after rejecting God Almighty they will still get there just reward as Allah (SWT) is just, but they will be among the losers in the hereafter.

God Almighty is most merciful and forgiving to those who repent and amend there ways but severe in punishment. But mostly he is just and not one soul will be dealt with unjustly on the Day Of Judgement, I may be wrong but your idea of God does not seem very just and fair, and seems to go against your own chrisitian beleifs and is what you want to beleive.

"Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?"

Peace
Reply

YamahaR1
07-21-2005, 03:36 PM
You're right....I do not speak for all christians in my belief set. I'm somewhat of an independent thinker in the political realm and the religious realm. For that reason, you can not read my opinions and think they are representative of all Christians.

The way I see it is that I need to be concerned with how I live my life and ensure that it is led in a way that God would be pleased. It is not my place to pass judgement or ensure that others are not doing the same.......other than my children, of course. It is my job as a parent to cultivate their morality.

I believe in the 10 commandments and in particular, "I am the Lord thy God and thou shalt not have other gods besides me." And, that is for me and my family. I simply do not apply that for others. You know the old saying, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." Well, I feel like that where religion is concerned. Accepting Jesus as your savior and beleiving in God is a very personal choice. I can not force someone to do that, nor would I attempt to. All I can do is live my life according to what God has commanded and help others along the way if I can.

We are all personally responsible for the choices we make in life and we should all have the freedom to make choices as long as those choices do not in any way infringe on someone else's freedoms or personal liberties.....this applies with religion as well as anything else from my standpoint.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-21-2005, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by YamahaR1
My views do not necessitate that all religions are false. My views are that there is no religion that is "better" than another.
Isn't it obvious? When you say that no religion is "better" than another, that automatically means you believe that there is no true religion. because if one religion was true, then it would automatically be superior to all others because it is correct.

To say that all religions, with all their conflicting beliefs, are the same is to say they are all false. If you truly believe that Christianity is the true path of God, then that means Christian beliefs are true. If Christian beliefs are true, every belief that contradicts them is false. It is not possible to think that conflicting sets of beliefs can be true at the same time. Only one set is true.

There can only be ONE true religion. Its your task to find it.

Your other comments about what God desires touch on the purpose of life. If you wish to learn about the purpose of life, please listen to this fascinating audio clip of a New Muslim:
http://english.islamway.com/bindex.p...5&scholar_id=7

Listening to the above will greatly aid you in understanding why Muslims view the world in the way they do.
:w:
Reply

Muezzin
07-21-2005, 07:10 PM
I think Yamaha was trying to get at the principle expounded by Joseph Campbell - 'All religions are true, but none of them are literal'

This does not necessarily represent my own view, I'm just trying to clarify.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-21-2005, 07:39 PM
:sl: Muezzin,
Saying that something is "true" for the person who believes in it is a meaningless statement to me. Only one religion can be true.

:w:
Reply

YamahaR1
07-21-2005, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl: Muezzin,
Saying that something is "true" for the person who believes in it is a meaningless statement to me. Only one religion can be true.:w:
Fair enough. You have your beliefs and I have mine.
Reply

Muezzin
07-21-2005, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl: Muezzin,
Saying that something is "true" for the person who believes in it is a meaningless statement to me. Only one religion can be true.

:w:
Okay. I tend to agree. I was just trying to clarify what I thought Yamaha was driving at :)
Reply

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