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czgibson
02-23-2007, 07:18 PM
Greetings,

I came across this hadith while browsing the forum:

Bukhari Volume 008, Book 074, Hadith Number 246.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." Adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and form of Adam. Since then the creation of Adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time."
Is that a reference to some kind of human evolution in the last sentence there?

Is that a part of Islamic belief?

Thanks in advance for any light anyone can shed on this.

Peace
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Malaikah
02-24-2007, 12:22 PM
The implication is that humans have become shorter since the time of Adam (as), and continue to grow shorter...
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GreatLoveJesus
02-24-2007, 01:51 PM
^

I do think it has been mentioned in more than one place amongst Muslim Muhadeethin and Mufaseerin about the different shapes that human beings had at different times during the times of the Prophets.

While some of these stories are not authentic, the one quoted here is in Saheeh Bukhari, so its authenticity is much higher. In spite of this, I do not know of any Muslim scholar who upholds "evolution" as held by most scientists.

You can ask for further elucidation for this from more knowldegeable Muslims, but this is what I know of.
Reply

Muslim Knight
02-24-2007, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson

Is that a reference to some kind of human evolution in the last sentence there?
That's not evolution. That's miniaturization! Getting smaller!
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strider
02-24-2007, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
That's not evolution. That's miniaturization! Getting smaller!
And how is that odds with evolution? Evolution via natural selection maintains the survival of the fittest. If that meant that humans getting shorter in order to survive, then that is evolution.
Reply

rania2820
02-24-2007, 02:25 PM
:sl:

that hadith is referring to how people at the beginning of time were taller than they are now.but as time goes by and as sin increases the people will get shorter.so i guess you can say its a kinda of evolution.
Reply

strider
02-24-2007, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by rania2820
:sl:

that hadith is referring to how people at the beginning of time were taller than they are now.but as time goes by and as sin increases the people will get shorter.so i guess you can say its a kinda of evolution.
Really? How does that work?
Reply

- Qatada -
02-24-2007, 03:29 PM
:salamext:

Man was created tall then he kept getting
shorter until now


Question:

Was man short at the time of Adam (peace be upon him) then he gradually grew taller, or was it the other way round? May Allaah reward you with good.


Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Allaah created Adam (peace be upon him) sixty cubits tall, then mankind gradually grew shorter until they stopped and remained as they are now. The evidence for that in the Sunnah is the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Allaah created Adam sixty cubits tall, then mankind kept getting shorter until now.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3326; Muslim, 2841). Ibn Abi Haatim narrated with a hasan isnaad from Ubayy ibn Ka’b that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah created Adam a tall man with a lot of hair on his head, as if he were a tall palm tree.”


Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in Fath al-Baari:


“ ‘Mankind kept getting shorter until now’ means that each generation grew shorter than the generation before, and that decrease in height ended with this ummah, and that is how they stayed.”


And Allaah knows best. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=22058&ln=eng&txt=
Reply

czgibson
02-24-2007, 06:31 PM
Greetings,

Thank you for the replies. It seems very much like a kind of evolution being mentioned here. Is there evidence to support this in the fossil record? This is certainly different to the path of evolution upheld by biologists.

Peace
Reply

Malaikah
02-25-2007, 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Is there evidence to support this in the fossil record? This is certainly different to the path of evolution upheld by biologists.
There isn't, as far as I know, and it would very hard to find, considering that the first communities of people where very, very small in number and localised in one region... (since they started with only 1 couple), and then the chances of becoming fossilised are horribly small too aren't they?
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Hemoo
02-26-2007, 01:32 PM
i would like to add that this kind of evolution (if we name it that way) is not like what some mad scientisits theory's is saying .

because its definitely wrong to say that human being where animals then they became human.

this is also clear on the genetics side that animals are animals and humans are humans this is the way that Allah created them.

any way evolution theory is a fake you can find more informations about that in the following links :

http://www.harunyahya.com/

and for usefull books see :

http://www.harunyahya.com/html/m_boo...post1_pno1.htm

and finally i invite you to visit my site http://islaam.co.nr
and see the books page
Reply

Woodrow
02-26-2007, 01:49 PM
Some things we do not have sufficient knowledge in to understand fully. That does not mean we need to accept them on blind faith. It just means we do not understand.

If we find contradiction between science and the Qur'an the wise thing would be to see what errors we are making in the scientific observation.


I know mankind has fluctuated in height and continue to do so. the greatest extremes seem to be in Africa where you have both the worlds tallest ethnic group (Watusi) and the world's shortest (Baka).

Then here in Texas which in the 1500s was under Spanish rule and many suits of the Spanish Conquistadors is still in existance in museums and private homes. What is usually found odd is how small those suits of armor are. Most of them are barely large enough to fit a typical 12 year old of today.

So based on todays observations some people are getting taller again and some are getting shorter.

But, based on what is written we are all quite a bit shorter than Adam. Only time will tell if we are interpreting things correctly.
Reply

czgibson
02-26-2007, 03:26 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by hemoo
because its definitely wrong to say that human being where animals then they became human.
Human beings are animals.

this is also clear on the genetics side that animals are animals and humans are humans this is the way that Allah created them.
In that case, why do we share over 90% of our DNA with chimpanzees?

any way evolution theory is a fake you can find more informations about that in the following links :

http://www.harunyahya.com/

and for usefull books see :

http://www.harunyahya.com/html/m_boo...post1_pno1.htm
Please, no more Harun Yahya! No matter how many times people point out the errors in his work, others still insist on bringing him forward to support their arguments. If you want to find out about evolution, please - read a science book.

Peace
Reply

Woodrow
02-26-2007, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,......Peace

Human beings are animals.
That is true as a biological definition of life forms. However that is not the only definition of animal. I won't insult your intelligence. I'm aware you already know the various deinitions.

In most religious concepts, including Islam the definition of Human does not meet the definition of animal.


In that case, why do we share over 90% of our DNA with chimpanzees?
Why are both schools and movie theaters made of cinder blocks? They are not the same things, but they are made of the same materials because they are functional materials.



Please, no more Harun Yahya! No matter how many times people point out the errors in his work, others still insist on bringing him forward to support their arguments. If you want to find out about evolution, please - read a science book.
I will partially agree with that statement. As Muslims we must keep in mind that sometimes our reason for a belief is not accepted by others. With that said I will say I have not found any proof in any scientific literature, I have read, that Humans descended from a non-human creature. If anyone can found specific proof that at one time humans were non-human please post it.

I have no problem with whatever changes took place in the animal world. The Qur'an makes no reference nor had any need to tell us what animals were before they became what we see today. But, the Qur'an and the ahadith are very clear that the original human and the humans of today are the same creations.
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Muslim Knight
02-26-2007, 04:06 PM
For a being that has complex social behavior, high intelligence and civilizations that span out for thousands of years of history, Man stands very far apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. Would it still be applicable for Man to be called an animal?

Unless your definition of "animal" is somehow fits the description of "global perverted permissiveness". You animal you.
Reply

Hemoo
02-26-2007, 04:09 PM
first :- where are your evidences that human being are animals ???

"i never seen an animal invent a machine or write a book or even read and analyse a scientific book then explain it to audience ,i never seen an animal go to study in a university and become an engineer or a doctor or a scientist"

did you see any thing like that ?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

second :- where is your scientific evidence that human share over 90% of our DNA with chimpanzees ????? i hope you dont give me theories ...

besides i till you that to have a common thing between the human and the animal is not the same as to be identical ...also that dosn't prove that one of them have evolved to the other.

and as an example you have legs and the chair has legs . does that mean that your grand grand father have evolved into chair (no offence i am just giving and example)

third :- show me the errors in Harun yahya's work ,are you saying he lies when he quote the verses from scientists books and speeches ????
show me the evidence .....

finally i want to ask you do you know arabic language ???
Reply

czgibson
02-26-2007, 06:57 PM
Greetings,

We're off-topic here, but since you brought it up...

Originally Posted by hemoo
first :- where are your evidences that human being are animals ???
Biologists classify humans as animals and have done for decades. We are mammals, like the apes and many other creatures.

"i never seen an animal invent a machine or write a book or even read and analyse a scientific book then explain it to audience ,i never seen an animal go to study in a university and become an engineer or a doctor or a scientist"

did you see any thing like that ?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that supposed to be an argument?

second :- where is your scientific evidence that human share over 90% of our DNA with chimpanzees ????? i hope you dont give me theories ...
See here for one example of what is a very well established biological fact:

Sister grouping of chimpanzees and humans as revealed by genome-wide phylogenetic analysis of brain gene expression profiles.

* Uddin M,
* Wildman DE,
* Liu G,
* Xu W,
* Johnson RM,
* Hof PR,
* Kapatos G,
* Grossman LI,
* Goodman M.

Center for Molecular Medicine and Genetics, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, Wayne State University School of Medicine, 540 East Canfield Avenue, Detroit, MI 48201, USA.

Gene expression profiles from the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) of human, chimpanzee, gorilla, and macaque samples provide clues about genetic regulatory changes in human and other catarrhine primate brains. The ACC, a cerebral neocortical region, has human-specific histological features. Physiologically, an individual's ACC displays increased activity during that individual's performance of cognitive tasks. Of approximately 45,000 probe sets on microarray chips representing transcripts of all or most human genes, approximately 16,000 were commonly detected in human ACC samples and comparable numbers, 14,000-15,000, in gorilla and chimpanzee ACC samples. Phylogenetic results obtained from gene expression profiles contradict the traditional expectation that the non-human African apes (i.e., chimpanzee and gorilla) should be more like each other than either should be like humans. Instead, the chimpanzee ACC profiles are more like the human than like the gorilla; these profiles demonstrate that chimpanzees are the sister group of humans. Moreover, for those unambiguous expression changes mapping to important biological processes and molecular functions that statistically are significantly represented in the data, the chimpanzee clade shows at least as much apparent regulatory evolution as does the human clade. Among important changes in the ancestry of both humans and chimpanzees, but to a greater extent in humans, are the up-regulated expression profiles of aerobic energy metabolism genes and neuronal function-related genes, suggesting that increased neuronal activity required increased supplies of energy.

PMID: 14976249 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Source

besides i till you that to have a common thing between the human and the animal is not the same as to be identical
How can two different classes be identical? That would make them the same class. I'm confused.
...also that dosn't prove that one of them have evolved to the other.
I wasn't aware that chimps had evolved into humans. Who claimed they did?

and as an example you have legs and the chair has legs . does that mean that your grand grand father have evolved into chair (no offence i am just giving and example)
We were talking about genetics here, not legs. You claimed:

this is also clear on the genetics side that animals are animals and humans are humans this is the way that Allah created them.
implying that there is not common genetic ground between humans and animals. I have proven that this is not so.

third :- show me the errors in Harun yahya's work ,are you saying he lies when he quote the verses from scientists books and speeches ????
show me the evidence .....
Sometimes untruths appear in his work due to ignorance, and he often uses quotes in a misleading way.

Incidentally, I doubt that Harun Yahya is actually one person, but that's a side issue.

I've taken issue with his writings several times on the forum, and I'm not about to do so again, because life is short. I will, however, try and find those old threads so you can have a look.

Try this one.

The others seem to have been deleted.

finally i want to ask you do you know arabic language ???
No, I don't. Why do you ask?

Peace
Reply

Silver Pearl
02-26-2007, 08:10 PM
Greetings,

As people have mentioned that hadeeth you quoted is not in reference to evolution. The teaching of Islam contradicts the evolution theory, the basic principles in evolution is juxtaposed with Islam and it is evidently clear that there is a clash. However, Islam merely disagrees with the evolution of human but it is possible that plants may have evolved.

Islam states that Adam was the first human to be created while Evolution suggest that everything around us is the result of spontenous evolving from a single amoeba. The law of entropy is completely ignored in evolution, it seems that evolution actually contradicts with basic teachings of biology like all cells have to come from other cells yet a huge exception has been made for this theory. Are we really that keen to be closely related to chimpaneze? I'd be intrigued to know what is the common ancestor between humans and chimps, should be interesting when it is discovered.

God knows best
Reply

Talha777
02-26-2007, 08:34 PM
As I understand it, the "theory of evolution" propogated by the likes of Darwin is not only scientifically fallacious it is also in direct conflict with the teachings of Holy Quran which state categorically that Hadhrat Nabi Adam [alaihi salam] is the first human being created by Allah Tala, and was created from dust (3:59). Bible also mentions how Adam was created from soil (Genesis 2:7), and Eve was created from his rib.

Allah Tala also created Hadhrat Nabi Adam [alaihi salam] sixty cubits tall, which is approximately 120 feet. The successive generations of humans were created shorter directly by Allah, but this process has stopped, which means that it cannot be considered as "evolution".
Reply

strider
02-26-2007, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Silver Pearl
Greetings,

As people have mentioned that hadeeth you quoted is not in reference to evolution. The teaching of Islam contradicts the evolution theory, the basic principles in evolution is juxtaposed with Islam and it is evidently clear that there is a clash. However, Islam merely disagrees with the evolution of human but it is possible that plants may have evolved.
Have you ever taken a science class, sister? Evolution and Islam are interwined. We see evolution occuring all around us, how can you deny that its existance?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-26-2007, 08:47 PM
Darwin had written "If my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties… must assuredly have existed". However evolutionists, who have been doing excavations all over the world, have been unable to uncover even a single intermediate form. Living species emerge very distinctly in the fossil record. There is no trace of the "intermediate forms" that were expected to link these species.

The theory of evolution holds that living beings differentiated from each other over a very long period of time with linked, gradual modifications. If this theory were true, then numerous "intermediary species" should have lived in history linking different living species. For instance, if birds had indeed evolved from reptiles, then billions of half-bird/half-reptiles should have lived in history. Darwin knew that the fossil record ought to be full of these "intermediate transitory forms". Yet he was also well aware that no transitional form fossils were available. That was why he asked these troubled questions in his book The Origin of Species: "…Why, if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?... " Despite their best efforts, evolutionists have not been able to find even a single intermediate form in the 140 years that have passed since Darwin. The well-known evolutionist Ager admits this: "The point emerges that if we examine the fossil record in detail, we find–over and over again–not gradual evolution, but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another." The sudden origination of living beings on the earth is proof that they were created.
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Silver Pearl
02-26-2007, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by strider
Have you ever taken a science class, sister? Evolution and Islam are interwined. We see evolution occuring all around us, how can you deny that its existance?
:sl:

I study biology so yes I have sat lots of science classes. You must know it is obligatory to take science in UK. Evolution and Islam aren't interwined. The evolution theory states that human and chimps have a common ancestor, how does this follow Islam? Islam clearly shows that Adam was the first human to be created. Evolution states that we are all the outcome of a single amoeba through spontenous reactions, how is this not in contradictory to Islam? there is more to evolution than the simple, things have evolved.

Now if you're claiming that Allaah (glorified and exalted be he) has allowed evolution to take place, you'll have to be specific on what you define as evolution because the general frame is not in agreement with Islam. Plants may have evolved as I stated in my previous post, God knows best but as far as Humans and chimps being related there is no basis for this in Islam.
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Woodrow
02-26-2007, 09:28 PM
Quite true Sister Pearl, it does depend on how you interpret evolution. However there is a field of thought that refers to evolution being the result of divine intervention.

With the exception of Man. I do not see any problem with concepts of evolution, but I do see problems with concepts as to how it occurs. There is also some doubt even in fossil records as to if new species ever developed or if what we see are changes within a species.

So to be a little more specific I see no conflict with evolution and Islam as long as the following conditions are met.

It has nothing to do with humans

Any changes in animals or plants were caused by the actions of Allah(swt)
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Philosopher
02-26-2007, 09:31 PM
Evolution is a fact of life. If Islam contradicts evolution, then you might as well reject Islam. I find Islam and evolution to go in perfect harmony. You wont find any credible scientist that rejects evolution.
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strider
02-26-2007, 10:33 PM
Evolution via natural selection makes perfect sense. I agree with brother Philospher.
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Hemoo
02-27-2007, 06:31 AM
well thanks czgibson for your respond

and as you said : "wasn't aware that chimps had evolved into humans. Who claimed they did?"

no one here claims that ,in the opposite i reject that , so we agree

and as my brothers and sisters in islam said : the hadeeth you quoted does not say that islam agrees with the theory of evolution

and that does not mean that humans them self doesn't change and that humans adapts with their surroundings (example of that the immunity system in the human beings and the invention that humans invent)

but its clear to me that the thing that adapts does not evolve into another creature

so i hope we agree

finally i asked you about arabic language because i would have been better for me to speak in arabic .

and as you said live is short indeed so lets spend our times following the right path that Allah created us to follow , Right ?
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Silver Pearl
02-27-2007, 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Evolution is a fact of life. If Islam contradicts evolution, then you might as well reject Islam. I find Islam and evolution to go in perfect harmony. You wont find any credible scientist that rejects evolution.
:salamext:

There seems to be a circle here, either some of us don't understand evolution or we don't know Islam. Please refer to my previous post. I agree with Amu Woodrow on this, however, evolution is not simply evolving of species. If that was the case there would be no need for people to disagree on this, rather everyone would be on the same side. However, that is not the reality of evolution having studied it. Evolution of human plays a vital role, while it is not a major part of evolution it certainly is a vital aspect that if neglected demolishes much of the theory. If you say evolution goes well with Islam you're also saying Adam and a chimpaneze share the same common ancestor. I hope some of you know the implication of this. While I agree with much of evolution, the human aspect of it is in complete juxtaposition to Islam.

Natural selection has many credits and that is without a doubt. It is a tad bit ironic that Hitler twisted this concept to try and remove those in society who were not as able. Also natural selection is of no good now in society, because technology has advanced so much, practically everyone has the chance to breed and give offsprings without being held back (in humans).

God knows best
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north_malaysian
02-27-2007, 07:32 AM
I've read a book by Maurice Bucaille years ago about evolution theory in the Koran.... he seems supporting it.... but the evolution theory is a little bit different than Darwinism....

I think the title was "What is the Origin of Man: The Answers of Science and the Holy Scriptures"
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Muslim Knight
02-27-2007, 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Evolution is a fact of life. If Islam contradicts evolution, then you might as well reject Islam. I find Islam and evolution to go in perfect harmony.
I've never heard of belief in evolution theory being intergral part of faith. Theory means it is still disputed and very much doubt is cast thereon. How will Islam stand on something that is doubtful?

I find it sometimes interesting to discuss about evolution theory but where the evolution of man from other considerably degenerate, or eloquently put, primitive form I am not keen to accept based on the Quranic evidence that Man is created directly.

My personal belief is that Man has remained very much the same since the first Human Being (except for the change in height) but that is the technology that has evolved over time.
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IceQueen~
02-27-2007, 11:33 AM
in that book 'atlas of the quran' it mentions about some historic graves which are very large
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Muslim Knight
02-27-2007, 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by strider
Evolution via natural selection makes perfect sense. I agree with brother Philospher.
Natural selection implies a species will undergo changes or adaptation to enable it to overcome certain difficulties in order to survive. With Man encroachment into habitat, we see very little or no species have done so to adapt. In contrast, more and more species are becoming instinct, yet we see no effort at adapting.

What about ourselves? Our environment has become more and more dangerous to live in as result to our own pollution, creation of dangerous work & living conditions. Why aren't we experiencing changes to adapt? The only thing I see that is evolving, like I mentioned in previous post, is technology. In addition to that, knowledge and methods to survive harsh conditions. But no physical alterations on our part.
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IceQueen~
02-27-2007, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Natural selection implies a species will undergo changes or adaptation to enable it to overcome certain difficulties in order to survive. With Man encroachment into habitat, we see very little or no species have done so to adapt. In contrast, more and more species are becoming instinct, yet we see no effort at adapting.

What about ourselves? Our environment has become more and more dangerous to live in as result to our own pollution, creation of dangerous work & living conditions. Why aren't we experiencing changes to adapt? The only thing I see that is evolving, like I mentioned in previous post, is technology. In addition to that, knowledge and methods to survive harsh conditions. But no physical alterations on our part.
good point masha allah and the other thing is that if everything went through this process then wouldn't species be haywire everywhere? yet we see them in groups like with like

in everything there are signs of Allah's creation and wisdom
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-27-2007, 02:42 PM
^^I agree..
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czgibson
02-27-2007, 03:01 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Natural selection implies a species will undergo changes or adaptation to enable it to overcome certain difficulties in order to survive. With Man encroachment into habitat, we see very little or no species have done so to adapt. In contrast, more and more species are becoming instinct, yet we see no effort at adapting.
Perhaps you've never heard of the example of the peppered moth?

Peace
Reply

Woodrow
02-27-2007, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



Perhaps you've never heard of the example of the peppered moth?

Peace
That is often brought up as an example of modern evolution. But to add some fuel to the fire. A significant number of the population had always been "Peppered" they have only become dominant now as the solid white ones are the ones most visible and most likely to be eaten. Both color varieties still exist. If conditions reverse once again will the solid white ones be the dominant color. No overall change in the moth population over all, just a change as to which color variation is the most dominate. No new color popped out of the wood work.
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Muslim Knight
02-27-2007, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



Perhaps you've never heard of the example of the peppered moth?

Peace
How is it that changing color is going to be of any help in terms of adapting to harsh environments? Are you suggesting black people is natural response to human industrial pollution?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-27-2007, 05:57 PM
^^:eek: lol...
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strider
02-27-2007, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Natural selection implies a species will undergo changes or adaptation to enable it to overcome certain difficulties in order to survive. With Man encroachment into habitat, we see very little or no species have done so to adapt. In contrast, more and more species are becoming instinct, yet we see no effort at adapting.

What about ourselves? Our environment has become more and more dangerous to live in as result to our own pollution, creation of dangerous work & living conditions. Why aren't we experiencing changes to adapt? The only thing I see that is evolving, like I mentioned in previous post, is technology. In addition to that, knowledge and methods to survive harsh conditions. But no physical alterations on our part.
We see evolution all around us. Take the example of people who reside in colder areas of the world such as Tibet and Nepal. They live at a high altitude, which means air is thinner there. They have to therefore adapt to get enough oxygen in their blood. A study carried out showed that people in Nepal can actually carry more oxygen in their blood(mutation of the haemoglobin or something i can't quiet remember) and that people in Tibet in general, have slightly larger chest as they have slightly larger lungs so they can carry more oxygen. Without these adaptions they wouldn't be able to live so high up like they do (survival of the fittest)-- changes=evolution. In this way, evolution can be used by creationalists to argue that science and theories like evolution doesn't have to be at odds with religion. In this manner, science answers how whilst religion answers why.
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czgibson
02-27-2007, 06:36 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Woodrow
That is often brought up as an example of modern evolution. But to add some fuel to the fire. A significant number of the population had always been "Peppered" they have only become dominant now as the solid white ones are the ones most visible and most likely to be eaten. Both color varieties still exist. If conditions reverse once again will the solid white ones be the dominant color. No overall change in the moth population over all, just a change as to which color variation is the most dominate. No new color popped out of the wood work.
Is it not an example of a species adapting to changes brought about by human encroachment into their habitat?

Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
How is it that changing color is going to be of any help in terms of adapting to harsh environments? Are you suggesting black people is natural response to human industrial pollution?
You'll have to explain to me how that is connected to the example I've given. I can't see the relevance at all.

Peace
Reply

czgibson
02-27-2007, 06:36 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Woodrow
That is often brought up as an example of modern evolution. But to add some fuel to the fire. A significant number of the population had always been "Peppered" they have only become dominant now as the solid white ones are the ones most visible and most likely to be eaten. Both color varieties still exist. If conditions reverse once again will the solid white ones be the dominant color. No overall change in the moth population over all, just a change as to which color variation is the most dominate. No new color popped out of the wood work.
Is it not an example of a species adapting to changes brought about by human encroachment into their habitat?

Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
How is it that changing color is going to be of any help in terms of adapting to harsh environments?
Read about the peppered moth and find out.

Are you suggesting black people is natural response to human industrial pollution?
You'll have to explain to me how that is connected to the example I've given. I can't see the relevance at all.

Peace
Reply

Woodrow
02-27-2007, 06:54 PM
Is it not an example of a species adapting to changes brought about by human encroachment into their habitat?
I keep a fishbowl of nickels and dimes to give to the neighborhood kids. each day I go around and tell the kids they can take out any of the coins they want, but are limited to one handful. I do that until the bowl is half empty, then each night I refill the bowl with an equal amount of nickels and dimes. The first week I go around to pre-school kids at the end of the week I have almost all dimes left as the kids have grabbed the larger nickels. The next week I try it with teen agers, now I find the nickels are left but the dimes have become fewer.

The population in the bowl has changed, due to human intervention, but the coins have not changed. Nothing has changed in the moths only the numbers in the 2 populations has shifted.
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Philosopher
02-27-2007, 06:56 PM
Evolution is an immutable fact. Creationist objections to evolution have been refuted on numerous occasions. www.talkorigins.org is a good place to read some refutations.
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Philosopher
02-27-2007, 06:58 PM
Also note that the elements we are composed of were derived from STARS.
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Muslim Knight
02-28-2007, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson

You'll have to explain to me how that is connected to the example I've given. I can't see the relevance at all.
So far you have provided an example of how moth changed color to black as response to encroachment. That's just only it. Color change. If we apply this to the human race, can we say that black people is the result of encroachment by white people, or worse, depredation by stronger, more aggressive carnivorous species preying on human beings? Because that's the only logical analogy I can see in terms of adaptation by color change and not distinct physical alterations.

If the moth care to evolve into more adaptive forms, like growing mechanisms for faster flight, or smaller undetectable forms, these are physical alterations I'm looking for, then I would say that's natural selection.

Compare to this;

reptile >> archeopteryx >> bird

These aren't simply adaptation by color change. We're talking about significant physical alteration. Why isn't this happening now while our environment has grown much more dangerous as to warrants more drastic adaptations?
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Muslim Knight
02-28-2007, 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson

Read about the peppered moth and find out.
Some years ago, a group of students made discovery of frogs growing extra pair of legs as result of DDTs. That's it. You've been poisoned and what you do? You grow extra pair of legs. The best thing you could evolve is immunity from DDTs but you had to grow legs. What, this to make you run/swim faster from DDT sources? Sometimes I couldn't help to wonder whether you evolved just to naturally adapt to my kind of humour.
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Hemoo
02-28-2007, 12:16 PM
i wanted to ask my brothers and sisters in islam

did maurice bochay convert to islam ??

i have his book "torah ,bible and quran and modern science" i have the book translated to arabic and prinred andi am reading it this days.

he talked about the errors in the torah and bible and the contradictions in them with themself and with modern science facts.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-19-2007, 04:20 PM
:salamext:

Due to the fact that this thread has turned in to a mud-slinging match, I have decided to close it. If you have any queries, feel free to PM.

:threadclo
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