PDA

View Full Version : A question regarding Christianity



England
02-24-2007, 10:09 PM
I watched a film tonight called "ten commandments" as there was nothing on. It was quite good actually. I know the story anyway. If God did all this to help the Jews then, why does it not happen to people today? Why wasn't God there to stop Jesus being crucified yet he was there to help the Jews?
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
edil
02-24-2007, 10:30 PM
First of all Allah does what he wishes without questions and its not up to anyone to worry about the commands of Allah and by the way Jesus wasnt crucified he was raised when the jews wanted to kill him.
Reply

Malaikah
02-25-2007, 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by England
Why wasn't God there to stop Jesus being crucified yet he was there to help the Jews?
Er, Christians believe Jesus is God, so that question doesn't really seem to make sense. :?
Reply

Keltoi
02-25-2007, 01:30 AM
Jesus being crucifed was obviously part of God's plan, as was aiding the Jewish people in their time of need. Far be it from me to question the actions of God Almighty. Interesting questions, but not really questions that can be easily answered.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
England
02-25-2007, 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Er, Christians believe Jesus is God, so that question doesn't really seem to make sense. :?
Not all Christians believe Jesus is God. Unitarian Christians don't believe in the Trinity. They believe as I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not God Himself.
Reply

Keltoi
02-25-2007, 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by England
Not all Christians believe Jesus is God. Unitarian Christians don't believe in the Trinity. They believe as I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not God Himself.
Perhaps you and the Unitarians don't believe Christ and God are One, but that is Christianity. Do some people believe otherwise? Yes, but that isn't the accepted belief of the Catholic Church or the predominant Protestant denominations.
Reply

aLiTTLeTiMe
02-25-2007, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Jesus being crucifed was obviously part of God's plan, as was aiding the Jewish people in their time of need. Far be it from me to question the actions of God Almighty. Interesting questions, but not really questions that can be easily answered.
you arent right brother.while people wanted to kill Jesus,God raised him.This is writing in quran...
Reply

rebelishaulman
02-25-2007, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by England
I watched a film tonight called "ten commandments" as there was nothing on. It was quite good actually. I know the story anyway. If God did all this to help the Jews then, why does it not happen to people today? Why wasn't God there to stop Jesus being crucified yet he was there to help the Jews?
How do you know what G-d is doing and who he is aiding? Do you think all the common folk were hearing G-d and speaking to G-d directly back a long time ago? That was very uncommon.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-25-2007, 02:02 AM



I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)



&&&

Originally Posted by England
If God did all this to help the Jews then, why does it not happen to people today?
---Jews were blessed in the past in many ways ; also when they disobeyed God , they got the due punishments.

If people have faith in God , have patience , try to change the condition , Insha Allah ( God Willing ) , situation will be improved today & tomorrow :)




Why wasn't God there to stop Jesus being crucified yet he was there to help the Jews?
--We ( Muslims ) do believe that God helped Jesus (p) & saved him from dying on the cross.


Reply

rebelishaulman
02-25-2007, 02:04 AM
---Jews were blessed in the past in many ways ; also when they disobeyed God , they got the due punishments.

If people have faith in God , have patience , try to change the condition , Insha Allah ( God Willing ) , situation will be improved today & tomorrow
That is of course your belief, but I believe G-d would not call something eternal and not be able to see in the future that it wouldn't be.
Reply

England
02-25-2007, 02:14 AM
Don't think for one second that I'm questioning God's existence because I'm not. God exists, I have no doubt about that.
Reply

Philosopher
02-25-2007, 07:25 AM
Originally Posted by England
I watched a film tonight called "ten commandments" as there was nothing on. It was quite good actually. I know the story anyway. If God did all this to help the Jews then, why does it not happen to people today? Why wasn't God there to stop Jesus being crucified yet he was there to help the Jews?
What religion are you affiliated with?
Reply

England
02-25-2007, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
What religion are you affiliated with?
I don't know. Nobody can tell me :sunny: I believe Jesus is the Son of God, not God Himself. I don't believe that it is imperative that we worship but to live the life we are given. God is our Father and he looks at us as his children and once we pass our spirit will hatch out of this egg shell we are in (physical body) and then our spirit is separated between the good and the bad. If you were good you are let into the "spirit world" which is a much better place than this. If you were bad you do not enter. I don't believe religion is a factor but you should be thankful to God.

Most of my beliefs derive from spiritualism. I have been to spiritualist churches in the past as members of my family have passed.
Reply

Muslim Knight
02-25-2007, 11:55 AM
England, do you place yourself as Unitarian Christian or just plain spiritual but not religious?
Reply

England
02-25-2007, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
England, do you place yourself as Unitarian Christian or just plain spiritual but not religious?
Unitarians don't believe Jesus is God so I agree with them with that part. I don't know too much about Unitarian Christians. I would probably put myself as spiritual. But at the same time I believe in Jesus and God.
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-26-2007, 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by England
Not all Christians believe Jesus is God. Unitarian Christians don't believe in the Trinity. They believe as I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not God Himself.

This comes from the Unitarian Universalist Association website, wherein they ask and answer this question for themselves:
Are Unitarian Universalists Christian?

Yes and no.

Yes, some Unitarian Universalists are Christian. Personal encounter with the spirit of Jesus as the christ richly informs their religious lives.

No, Unitarian Universalists are not Christian, if by Christian you mean those who think that acceptance of any creedal belief whatsoever is necessary for salvation. Unitarian Universalist Christians are considered heretics by those orthodox Christians who claim none but Christians are "saved." (Fortunately, not all the orthodox make that claim.)

Yes, Unitarian Universalists are Christian in the sense that both Unitarian and Universalist history are part of Christian history. Our core principles and practices were first articulated and established by liberal Christians.

Some Unitarian Universalists are not Christian. For though they may acknowledge the Christian history of our faith, Christian stories and symbols are no longer primary for them. They draw their personal faith from many sources: nature, intuition, other cultures, science, civil liberation movements, and so on.

As a member of a mainline protestant denomination, The United Methodist Church, I would agree that the Unitarians have some historic Christian roots, but nothing in their faith is actually Christian.

As to your original questions:
1) Who says that God does not still do this today? I think he does. In reading nearly 2000 years of history in the Bible and viewing it all at once, it is easy to get the impression that God was constantly doing miracles left and right. I don't think this was the case. Along with the Rabbi, I think they were uncommon. But I do think that God still works miracles today, is not the peace accord between Israel and Egypt and example of one? I know it sure seemed like it to me at the time. I don't think anything less than God/Allah could have ended that conflict.

2) Jesus' whole purpose for coming was to face the cross. Check out the story of the transfiguration to see hints of that: "Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem." (Luke 9:30-31) and "As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem." (Luke 9:51)


The only one wanting to intercede with Jesus on the cross would have been the devil, not the Father nor the Son. At least this view of it being the devil who would seek to stop the cross was what Jesus expressed to Peter:
He [Jesus] then began to teach them [the disciples] that the Son of Man [a title for the Messiah] must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
(Mark 8:31-33)
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-26-2007, 03:42 PM
Salaam/peace


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Jesus' whole purpose for coming was to face the cross.
----Do all Christians believe in it ? Is it a must ?

How do u explain the verse that says Jesus (p) avoided Jews in a place because there was a danger ( i forgot the exact words.....hope u do understand :D )

If it was his purpose to die on the cross , why he tried to escape it or asked God to save him ?

when Unitarian Christians die , do people bury them in Christians graveyard ?

Reply

Keltoi
02-26-2007, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace




----Do all Christians believe in it ? Is it a must ?

How do u explain the verse that says Jesus (p) avoided Jews in a place because there was a danger ( i forgot the exact words.....hope u do understand :D )

If it was his purpose to die on the cross , why he tried to escape it or asked God to save him ?

when Unitarian Christians die , do people bury them in Christians graveyard ?
Most Christians believe in it, but of course you will have the occasional group such as the Unitarians who don't, although they aren't exactly Christians by their own admission.
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-26-2007, 09:57 PM
Salaam, Muslim Woman, peace to you as well.

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

----Do all Christians believe in it ?
Probably not. With some 2 billion Christians in the world, I doubt if there is anything that all believe.

I think that any Christian who is a thinking person and has read the scriptures will believe this. But not all Christians are thinking persons, and sadly not all have read the scriptures.

Is it a must ?
No. To be a Christian is simply to be a follower of Christ and believing in the work of Christ as a means of salvation.

How do u explain the verse that says Jesus (p) avoided Jews in a place because there was a danger ( i forgot the exact words.....hope u do understand :D )
I understand. Yes, there were times that Jesus avoided Jerusalem, and times when he told the people to keep silent about who he was. I understand that this was because the time had not yet come for him to face the cross. I think the key factor in determining that time was when his disciples, in conversation with Jesus just before the event we call the transfiguration (portions of which I quoted above), finally understood that Jesus was indeed the Christ. Scripture tells us that while he told his disciples not to tell anyone about this revelation they had come to, that from that time on Jesus took his disciples and began to explain to them that he had to face death. Then he went to the mountain where the transfiguration occurred and he discussed his departure with Moses and Elijah, and then coming down from the mountain he head toward Jerusalem where he would complete his mission.

Does that adaquately address your question?


If it was his purpose to die on the cross , why he tried to escape it or asked God to save him ?
I don't think that he did try to escape it. I think that the burden of the event that was about to take place was significant. I know this concept is hard for non-Christians, but remember we understand that Jesus was both God and human. As he walked the face of the earth, Jesus was every bit as human as you or I. He was hungry, he was cold, he was tired, and he had to deal with very human emotions. Whereas for some here to hear that said of one that we also say is God makes you think of weakness or to demean God; it does not makes us think of that at all. So, even though Jesus had resolved to follow this path in his life in order to accomplish the salvation of humankind, in his humanness, it was still a great step to take. Thus, the night he was arrested he prayed to the Father, that if it was possible (if there was another way) let the cup (i.e. the burder before him) be taken from him.

On the cross, it is a different story. First, while others have said that Jesus only spoke once from the cross, that must be the opinion of those who reject the Biblical record and use some other source to tell the story. The biblical record has Jesus speaking 7 times. On one of those occassions he says: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" You'll note, this is one of the few phrases where we get Jesus exact words in the language he spoken them in. They are in Hebrew (not Aramaic) so what Jesus is doing is not speaking his own words, but quoting scripture. He is quoting the opening line of Psalm 22.

I find it significant for three reasons.
1) The Psalm is a Psalm of David. Now David is known as a man loved by God. Yet despite this attribution which is given to him, Psalm 22 shows that David suffered. The Messiah was to be a Son of David. If David who was so highly favored should also suffer and feel forsaken, why should we expect it to be different with the Messiah.
2) The Psalm shows Davids steadfastness even in the midst of this suffering and feelings of abandonment. In turning to this Psalm I believe we see Jesus identifying with these feelings. He understands that while a part of him feels abandoned that God is still God and he is still committed to submit his entire life, including these last moments to accomplish the Father's will.
3) At the close of the Psalm are written these words:
Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
Notice how prophetic they are of Jesus. Furture generations are told of him as Lord. We proclaim his righteousness to people who are born centuries after him. We make this proclamation because of what he did on the cross. For on the cross, Jesus did for humankind what none of us could ever accomplish for ourselves. He bridged the gap between a sinful humanity and a holy God.

Now beyond the text itself, I think the words and emotions of the Psalm are uniquely appropriate for Jesus in this context of his death on the Cross. (Please, no comments from Muslims that it wasn't Jesus, but Judas. I know this is your belief, but the question was posed as to what Christians understand is happening here.) For me, I see one more level to this suffering, beyond human suffering. I believe there is a type of divine suffering involved too. Now, I'll leave for others to debate whether an almighty and all powerful God can suffer. For myself, I do think that God in his interactions with us humans can change (Jeremiah 18 speaks of God relenting, reconsidering, and even repenting of his plans for people when their behaviors change) and that doing so does not in anyway cheapen who God is. In going to the cross, Jesus was going as a sin offering, a propitiation. In so doing, the sins of the people would be placed on him. I don't know the mechanics of how this works, I only know that the Bible declares that this is indeed what happened. And so he who was entirely without sin, suddenly had the sins of mankind suddenly thrust upon him. Now, sin is what separated Adam from God in the beginning. Jesus likewise would experience this sin in much the same way. His whole life, Jesus had never known sin. He had been able to live in communion in fellowship with the Father in the same way that Adam had when Adam was first created, before he sinned. But just as sin had broken that relationship between Adam and God, so now it would, for the first time ever, severe the connection between Father and Son, and Jesus would die.

Jesus words declaring this forsakenness are recorded in two of the four Gospel records (again let us deal with what Christians believe and not attempt to muddie the waters with other so-called gospels that really aren't): Matthew and Mark and in them they are his very last recorded words. But both also say that after saying this line, Jesus was offered some wine-vinegar, cried out, and then died. John, the only one of the gospel writers who would have been eye-witness to the crucifixion, fills that cry in by saying that after he received the drink, "Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

What is finished? His life? Perhaps. But I tend to think that what is finished is the great drama of salvation that he accomplished on the cross. John also provides one other interesting bit, perhaps it is trivia, or perhaps it is significant. You decide. In the other gospels we find that Jesus is also offered something to drink earlier by the Roman soldiers, this he refuses. But now he is offered by one of his own countrymen, and accepts it. What he is offered is poured into a sponge and lifted up to him on a hyssop reed. And it was to be the hyssop reed with which the ancient Israelites were to have taken the blood of the lamb of the atonement and spread it on their doorposts and sills on the night of Passover. As a Christian, I see Jesus as THE Lamb of the atonement, his blood is shed for my sins that God might not look on me as deserving of death, and would passover my sins which Jesus now takes to himself on the Cross. In doing this, Jesus finished his work, gave up his spirit (which Luke tells us he committed to the Father) and then died, everything having been accomplished. There being no actual attempt to escape, some human trepidation as he approached it, and some a sense of the loss from his close communion with the Father when he took those sins upon himself, Yes. But, nonetheless a solid resolve to complete the task of providing for the atonement of human kind and staying on the task till it was completed, at which point the curtain in the temple which symbolized the separation between God and humanity was torn in two symbolic of the union which Christ restored for people to once again have access to God, and then Christ died, his work on earth done.




when Unitarian Christians die , do people bury them in Christians graveyard ?
Well, in 25 years of Christian ministry, I've never buried anyone in an exclusively Christian graveyard. They have all been public cemetaries. People of all faiths are buried in them, typically side by side -- though in some cases there is a Catholic "section" in the cemetary. I do know of some private church graveyards, and of some private family graveyards. In these cases each of them would be within their rights to make their own rules determining who could and could not be buried there. Some might allow and some might exclude a Unitarian.
Reply

Philosopher
02-26-2007, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Most Christians believe in it, but of course you will have the occasional group such as the Unitarians who don't, although they aren't exactly Christians by their own admission.
I thought it was a sin to judge?
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-26-2007, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
I thought it was a sin to judge?
Actually in Matthew 18, Jesus instructs his followers on how to deal with differences among one another, and this includes confrontation. Paul also has Christians holding one another accountable in the faith. But we are not to judge those who are outside the faith, that is God's responsibility, not ours.

So, if someone (say a Unitarian) should say that he/she is a Christian, we might then ask them to live up to that name. If they however deny the truth of Christ, we simply say they are not one of us and them pray for them.
Reply

Philosopher
02-26-2007, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Actually in Matthew 18, Jesus instructs his followers on how to deal with differences among one another, and this includes confrontation. Paul also has Christians holding one another accountable in the faith. But we are not to judge those who are outside the faith, that is God's responsibility, not ours.

So, if someone (say a Unitarian) should say that he/she is a Christian, we might then ask them to live up to that name. If they however deny the truth of Christ, we simply say they are not one of us and them pray for them.
So it's a sin for Christians to judge Muslims and Jews?
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-26-2007, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
So it's a sin for Christians to judge Muslims and Jews?
To judge whether they are worthy people in God's eyes? Yes, I would agree with that.

I think we should see them as people God created, and therefore God loves. As to their acceptance by God, well we can speculate, we can offer them what we know is a way that is assured, but I don't think we can condemn. That is not something given to us to pronounce on anyone.
Reply

Philosopher
02-26-2007, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
To judge whether they are worthy people in God's eyes? Yes, I would agree with that.

I think we should see them as people God created, and therefore God loves. As to their acceptance by God, well we can speculate, we can offer them what we know is a way that is assured, but I don't think we can condemn. That is not something given to us to pronounce on anyone.
Would it be a sin to say that Muslims will go to hell?
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-26-2007, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Would it be a sin to say that Muslims will go to hell?
It would not be a sin to say it, if that is what one truly believed, and many in fact do. But, I am not personally ready to say it.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-27-2007, 12:07 AM


Salaam/peace;



Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
....
thanks for ur patience :)

I guess , all the lengthy answers u r giving here , u can start ur own website :D

How long will u stay on-line ? Should i ask u more questions now or later?





Reply

Muslim Woman
02-27-2007, 01:14 AM



Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Salaam, Muslim Woman, peace to you as well.

-- May the peace, mercy and blessings of God be upon you :)


But not all Christians are thinking persons, and sadly not all have read the scriptures.

---in religion classes of school & colleges , don't they need to read Bible ? In my country , it's a must for Muslim students to memorise few chapters from holy Quran in school days.

I m not sure about now a days English medium schools but in Govt school, still it is. What i memorised now , u may say that most parts i learnt in school to get pass marks :)


No. To be a Christian is simply to be a follower of Christ and believing in the work of Christ as a means of salvation.

--can u explain more , pl ? What is the most imp work of Jesus (p) as means of Salvation ? If it's not to face death on cross , then what is it ?


Jesus (p) taught us to worship One God . So , if any Christian believes that only father is God and not the son or the Spirit , then why s/he can't be considered as a real Christian ?


S/he can show u many verses from Bible to justify his/her belief.


Then he went to the mountain where the transfiguration occurred and he discussed his departure with Moses and Elijah,
---why these 2 Prophets (pbut ) came ? I mean , any other related stories/concepts regarding the coming of these 2 Prophets to Jesus (p) ?



Does that adaquately address your question?
--yes & no :giggling:




Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

Notice how prophetic they are of Jesus.
---hope , no Jew will see this .... he will be mad :raging: or laugh & tease.



Please, no comments from Muslims that it wasn't Jesus, but Judas.
--- allow me comments pl,pl. pl. :)


Quran does not mention any name . I guess , it's Barnabas Bible that says it was Judas....did u read that Bible ?



In going to the cross, Jesus was going as a sin offering, a propitiation. In so doing, the sins of the people would be placed on him.


---if Jesus (p) did not die on the cross , what could possibly turned wrong ? All Chrstians/human being will burn in hell forever ?



Reply

Grace Seeker
02-27-2007, 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;





thanks for ur patience :)

I guess , all the lengthy answers u r giving here , u can start ur own website :D
:D Maybe I should start a thread of all my own answers to questions and then LI can most my responses and Sami Zaatari's refutations in one section of the board with a big "DANGER" sign on it warning people they may not want to visit there.

How long will u stay on-line ? Should i ask u more questions now or later?
I'm probably done for the next couple of days, but post all the questions you want. When they pile up, then I just select those I find most intersting. So, if you have a particular question you really want answer, it is better to post it and none others. But otherwise, ask away.
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-27-2007, 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

---in religion classes of school & colleges , don't they need to read Bible ? In my country , it's a must for Muslim students to memorise few chapters from holy Quran in school days.

I m not sure about now a days English medium schools but in Govt school, still it is. What i memorised now , u may say that most parts i learnt in school to get pass marks :)
Well, the practice is probably different in different parts of the world.

Where I live in the USA, most children go to public schools, and there is no requirement to read any religious texts whatsoever. In fact, sometimes schools get in trouble for even offering a course on the Bible as literature.

Universities have a little more latitude, but any classes in which the Bible is taught would be an elective and thus not taken by everyone. it isn't untill you go to a private school or intentionally sign-up for a class in the Bible that one would be required to read it. And then, many might just do so to pass the test and forget what they read soon after.

Other places in the world, it may be different.





--can u explain more , pl ? What is the most imp work of Jesus (p) as means of Salvation ? If it's not to face death on cross , then what is it ?
Indeed, from a Christian perspective, what Jesus did on the cross in dying for our sins and thus paying the sacrificial price that brought atonment to humankind is what I mean by the work of Christ.


Jesus (p) taught us to worship One God . So , if any Christian believes that only father is God and not the son or the Spirit , then why s/he can't be considered as a real Christian ?
Well, first I would disagree that Jesus actually taught us to worship One God. Of course, Jesus did only worship one God, but that wasn't the center of his teaching. It was always an assumed part of his faith and those to whom he did teach. Jesus' main teaching was on the nature of the Kingdom of God. But his central mission was not to teach but the work of salvation which I mentioned above.

Now, why would one who denied the truth of the divinity of the Son not be considered a Christian, because, at least according to orthodox Christian beliefs (and if you looked at their link, even the Unitarians acknowledge that their teachings fall outside of orthodox Christian beliefs) their is no saving work if Christ is just a mere human being and not also God. Also, though you did not ask, there is no saving work if Christ is only God and not also 100% human being.

That means that the real question that people ought to be asking about Christianity is not questions about the Trinity (how 1+1+1 =1, which by the way in my personal opinion is a very poor attempt at an explanation of the Trinity). What people who are confused by Christianity ought to be asking is who it is that one person, Jesus Christ, and be both 100% God and 100% human at the same time without any reduction in either of those natures. Which, also, by the way, I cannot answer how, I can only point to where I see that though a mystery as to how, it is nonetheless true.




---why these 2 Prophets (pbut ) came ? I mean , any other related stories/concepts regarding the coming of these 2 Prophets to Jesus (p) ?
The scriptures never have this question posed, so it is not answered from scripture. But in reflecting on it, we note that these were the two most highly respected persons of Judaism in Jesus' day. Moses the law giver, and Elijah the prophet. The authors of many respected commentaries have written pages on each of them if you would like me to go into it more deeply, but think of it as a statement that the Law and the Prophets (in other words the entire Tanakh) pointing toward Jesus. (Of course that's just a Christian interpretation of the event.)



--- allow me comments pl,pl. pl. :)


Quran does not mention any name . I guess , it's Barnabas Bible that says it was Judas....did u read that Bible ?
Well, I guess I'm just accustomed to hearing my Muslims chime in from time to time that it wasn't Jesus, but Judas. Good to know that it isn't actually taught that way in the Qu'ran. Though (from my perspective) it really doesn't make any difference who died in Jesus' place; it is bad enough simply to deny the reality of the crucifixion.

I've seen the supposed-gospel of Barnabbas. It is meaningless as far as getting any Christian beliefs from it, as it wasn't written until centuries after the time of Christ and the apostles, and certainly not by Barnabbas who was a frequent companion and friend of Paul, something the supposed-gospel denies. No Christian teachings are based on it, and no Christian church has ever used it.



---if Jesus (p) did not die on the cross , what could possibly turned wrong ? All Chrstians/human being will burn in hell forever ?
Quite possibly. The Christian view would be that if Jesus did not both die on the cross and be raised from the grave then we are all (all of us, not just Christians) still dead in our sins and there is no hope of salvation for anyone.
Reply

Philosopher
02-27-2007, 03:09 AM
Hey Grace,

Are you a Catholic?
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-27-2007, 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Hey Grace,

Are you a Catholic?

No. I happen to be a United Methodist, which most people would consider a type of protestant.

Why? Do I sound Catholic?
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-28-2007, 01:39 AM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker


Well, first I would disagree that Jesus actually taught us to worship One God....

Uhhhhh, I m totally lost here :uuh:


pl. explain more ---if u r not running out of patience already :hiding:


When asked which is the most imp commandment , Jesus (p) told the 1st one . That is God is One ….. am I right ?

So , how come , he did not teach to worship One God only ?



Who will decide who is a Christian or not ? If one claims that s/he is a Christian because Jesus (p) was son of God & this belief will save him/her , then do others have any right
to object ?



Reply

Grace Seeker
02-28-2007, 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;




Uhhhhh, I m totally lost here :uuh:


pl. explain more ---if u r not running out of patience already :hiding:


When asked which is the most imp commandment , Jesus (p) told the 1st one . That is God is One ….. am I right ?

So , how come , he did not teach to worship One God only ?
Uh, I don't know why I said that. My head must have been off in the clouds at the time I typed that. Sorry. :hiding:



Who will decide who is a Christian or not ?
Jesus hismelf told this parable as regards judgment day:
Mattew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
So it appears that Jesus gets to decide.


If one claims that s/he is a Christian because Jesus (p) was son of God & this belief will save him/her , then do others have any right to object ?
I'll just refer you to these verses of scripture:
Romans 9
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Romans 10:11 -- "As the Scripture says, 'Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame'."
Reply

Skillganon
02-28-2007, 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Jesus hismelf told this parable as regards judgment day:
So it appears that Jesus gets to decide.

I thought Jesus said fear his creator who has the power to throw you into heaven. So God decides not Jesus.

4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. (Luke 12:4-6)
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-28-2007, 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
I thought Jesus said fear his creator who has the power to throw you into heaven. So God decides not Jesus.

4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. (Luke 12:4-6)
Being that when we are discussing Christian theology, that Jesus is God, there is no difference in those statements. Still in the greater scheme of things while the power may be with the Father, it appears that he has shared it with the Son.
Reply

Skillganon
02-28-2007, 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Being that when we are discussing Christian theology, that Jesus is God, there is no difference in those statements. Still in the greater scheme of things while the power may be with the Father, it appears that he has shared it with the Son.
Yes, I anticipated that response, but solely based on the above statement it seems God(father) decides.

Now on the topic of sharing power, will you say God shared his power with solomon and the other prophets who did miracles?
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-28-2007, 04:22 AM
I don't know of any miracles done by Solomon. You have the advantage of me on that bit of information. Obviously I am not informed well enough. But certainly there were mircales peformed by Elijah, Moses, and others. I think God gave them power in order to perform those miracles, yes. I don't think they did them on their own power, or by magic.

Ask the next question, I'll bet my response surprises you.
Reply

Skillganon
02-28-2007, 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I don't know of any miracles done by Solomon. You have the advantage of me on that bit of information. Obviously I am not informed well enough.
Ok, It might not be recorded in the bible. However you might wan't to refer to the Rabbinical account e.g. Targum Sheni.


But certainly there were mircales peformed by Elijah, Moses, and others. I think God gave them power in order to perform those miracles, yes. I don't think they did them on their own power, or by magic.
Interesting, that is how we muslim view miracles of Jesus.

Ask the next question, I'll bet my response surprises you.
I will.

Thanks.

Skill
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-28-2007, 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
by Grace Seeker
But certainly there were mircales peformed by Elijah, Moses, and others. I think God gave them power in order to perform those miracles, yes. I don't think they did them on their own power, or by magic.
Interesting, that is how we muslim view miracles of Jesus.
And that's the next question. See, that is how we Christians view the miracles of Jesus too. Are you shocked? Want me to explain how it is that Jesus who we view as God, doesn't do miracles in his own power?
Reply

Skillganon
02-28-2007, 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And that's the next question. See, that is how we Christians view the miracles of Jesus too. Are you shocked? Want me to explain how it is that Jesus who we view as God, doesn't do miracles in his own power?
Not shocked. Jesus, Moses, Exrah e.t.c does not have their own devine powers to do anything except with what is granted from God with permission, because they are not God.

You can entertain us by giving christian understanding how God gives another god power to do miracles.
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-28-2007, 05:17 AM
Well, since this thread is discussing question regarding Christianity, I'm still going to go on the assumption that Jesus is indeed God. But, the reason that he does not do anything in his own power is that, according to Philippians 2, Jesus emptied himself of his divine power when he became incarnate as a human being on earth:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
So, what he did he could only do in the very same way that any other human being could do them, by God (specifically the Father in this case) giving him the power to do it. In Jesus' case, I believe the Father did that by sending the Holy Spirit to indwell in the life of Jesus. Today, Christians have this same power available to them if we would only learn to live as submissive of a life as Jesus did.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-28-2007, 03:19 PM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Uh, I don't know why I said that. My head must have been off in the clouds at the time I typed that. Sorry. :hiding:
--- i guess , u r over -burden here ? :exhausted



Who will decide who is a Christian or not ?

Jesus hismelf told this parable as regards judgment day:


---well , I wanted to know , in this world , who decides this ? The mainstream Christians can declare other groups as non-Christians ?






Reply

Grace Seeker
02-28-2007, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

---well , I wanted to know , in this world , who decides this ? The mainstream Christians can declare other groups as non-Christians ?
Ahhh. OK. Fair question.

Yeah, it pretty much works that way.


Although it works the other way also -- that is that many of the new and non-mainstream groups like to declare everyone else non-Christian.

So, each person pretty much has to determine for him or herself who is going to be the authoritative voice to whom they listen. Discerning who is and who is not trustworthy to speak on behalf of the church is often the most important and also difficult of the decisions one has to make.

I would counsel you to read widely, from different doctrinal backgrounds, but also to look for those who use reason over emotion to make their points. (But now you have to decide if my advice is trustworthy or not. See how tricky it gets.)
Reply

Eesa Abdullah
03-01-2007, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Most Christians believe in it, but of course you will have the occasional group such as the Unitarians who don't, although they aren't exactly Christians by their own admission.
bismillah

Greetings,

And what makes them not Christians?
Reply

Keltoi
03-01-2007, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Eesa Abdullah
bismillah

Greetings,

And what makes them not Christians?
Besides their own admission? The fact they do not accept the core belief system of Christianity. Unitarians are about spirituality and a rather "liberal" concept of religion. I'm not judging them, I'm simply saying, as they have, that they do not represent Christianity.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-01-2007, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by England
I don't know. Nobody can tell me :sunny: I believe Jesus is the Son of God, not God Himself. I don't believe that it is imperative that we worship but to live the life we are given. God is our Father and he looks at us as his children and once we pass our spirit will hatch out of this egg shell we are in (physical body) and then our spirit is separated between the good and the bad. If you were good you are let into the "spirit world" which is a much better place than this. If you were bad you do not enter. I don't believe religion is a factor but you should be thankful to God.

Most of my beliefs derive from spiritualism. I have been to spiritualist churches in the past as members of my family have passed.
England

I have been a Catholic all my life, I have read the bible through and through again and I too believe in God the way you do. I do not believe that Jesus was actually God and I dont really go to church much anymore because I get more out of studying religion and reading books than someone reading to me. (I still go on Easter, Christmas, Lent, etc, just because to me church is church and God, I believe, is probably closer to you in a church than anywhere else) If you ever find out what religion this is, if there is even one be sure to let me know.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-01-2007, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Eesa Abdullah
bismillah

Greetings,

And what makes them not Christians?
The word Christian was coined at Antioch in Syria meaning one who belongs to Christ. The word Christ is the Greek word for the Jewish word Messiah. Christians saw Jesus as the Messiah that God has sent to the Jews. Christians understood this role to be different than other Jews did, and thus the Jewish community split over whether Jesus was indeed the Messiah or not (most said "not"). Those that did attempted to follow not just Jesus' teaching, but believed that his very life made an impact on their lives. Unitarians do none of those things. They simply see Jesus as a good teacher about God. That is NOT what a Christian is. A Christian, as John so eloquently stated in his letter, is one who has fellowship with God through Jesus Christ.

Let me put it another way. Unitarians agree with a few (but not all) of the elemental beliefs of historic orthodox Christianity. Should such small agreement be sufficient to identifiy them as Christian to the rest of us, if they so choose to label themselves? There are some who say --If the individual calls himself/herself a Christian then he/she is. Well, let me apply that to Islam.

I happen to believe in some of the priniciples of Islam, namely that one should submit one's life to God/Allah. (I have no problem with using the Arabic word for God.) Indeed I try to live my life as one that is totally submitted to Allah's divine will in my life. I think I will start to call myself a follower of Islam. Now, I would think that the rest of the Islamic community would object to that. But if I choose that name, who is to say that I am wrong in using it? Answer: the Islamic community which says that there is more to being a follower of Islam than just the little I have said thus far. So, it is with Unitarians using the name Christian. They mean much less by it than the rest of us do.

There is more to being a Christian than just saying that you are a believer/follower/respector/observer (pick a term) of some of Christ's teachings. Christians live in relationship with God through Jesus Christ, which means participation in both his message AND his mission -- that mission includes all three of the following: recognition of his incarnation, repentance of one's own sin in the face of the reality of the Cross, and rejoicing in new life realized in us through the experience of the Resurrection.

Anything short of this is another religion. It is not historic, orthodox Christianity.
Reply

England
03-01-2007, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
England

I have been a Catholic all my life, I have read the bible through and through again and I too believe in God the way you do. I do not believe that Jesus was actually God and I dont really go to church much anymore because I get more out of studying religion and reading books than someone reading to me. (I still go on Easter, Christmas, Lent, etc, just because to me church is church and God, I believe, is probably closer to you in a church than anywhere else) If you ever find out what religion this is, if there is even one be sure to let me know.
Wow someone with the same beliefs as me! I've asked many many people on here what religion this is associated with and none have been able to give an answer. Alot of people have this belief though. My family have these beliefs and I know a few others too so I'm sure there is a name for it someway. Maybe it's a mix of different religions? I'll let you know if I find out. :)
Reply

Eesa Abdullah
03-01-2007, 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
There is more to being a Christian than just saying that you are a believer/follower/respector/observer (pick a term) of some of Christ's teachings. Christians live in relationship with God through Jesus Christ, which means participation in both his message AND his mission -- that mission includes all three of the following: recognition of his incarnation, repentance of one's own sin in the face of the reality of the Cross, and rejoicing in new life realized in us through the experience of the Resurrection.

Anything short of this is another religion. It is not historic, orthodox Christianity.
bismillah

Greetings and thanks for the response. However, I would have to disagree with the above.... so a Christian is not a Christian if he/she does not believe in the incarnation?

That is a very shaky claim. That is interesting however, in the case with the Unitarians, they believe that he was indeed the Son of God and was crucified, I do not see the difference between the two. I have a friend who is a Unitarian and she is glad to call herself a Christian, but she forsakes the notion that Jesus is God incarnate.

************************************************** *******

As far as their beliefs they do differ from Trinitarian Christianity thus:

1) the belief that human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved, but exactly as God created it and intended it to be from the beginning, capable of both good and evil;

2) the conviction that no religion has a monopoly on holy spirit or theological truth;

3) the belief that the Bible, while inspired of God, is written by humans and therefore subject to human error;

4) the rejection of traditional doctrines that malign God’s character or veil the true nature and mission of Jesus, such as the doctrines of predestination, eternal ****ation, the Trinity, and the vicarious sacrifice or satisfaction theory of the Atonement.



Lastly, Unitarian Christian beliefs have existed right from the life and times of Jesus (as); indeed many scholars argue to this day that Jesus himself was a Unitarian in outlook as were his most loyal followers including Mary Magdalene, Peter and Paul.

Over the past two millennia, many believers have sought to interpret the teachings of Jesus, and there have always been individuals and groups who have taken a Unitarian position (the Ebionites and Arians are examples of this). Unfortunately they have often been violently suppressed by others with differing viewpoints.


Wasalaam

Also, who says that just believing in Allaah/God alone is Islam. The statement of faith is of two parts:

negation and affirmation

Negation: There is nothing worthy of worship except the One true God

Affirmation:
And Muhammad is His messenger.

This is Islam completely. All Muslims consider Muhammad (saw) a messenger however, there are differences in some sects who claim they are Muslims, but do not agree that Muhammad ibn Abdullah was the last prophet.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-01-2007, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by England
Wow someone with the same beliefs as me! I've asked many many people on here what religion this is associated with and none have been able to give an answer. Alot of people have this belief though. My family have these beliefs and I know a few others too so I'm sure there is a name for it someway. Maybe it's a mix of different religions? I'll let you know if I find out. :)
I have always thought it to be my logical mind combining the different religions I have learned about throughout my life. My family are full blown Catholics and I have tried to speak to my mom about this and she just says I need to talk to the priest and that she will pray for me. Problem is when I talk to the priest they just give you the same old rhetoric about needing to go with what the bible says, however I dont feel the bible actually says what they say and I wont just go with it because they say so. I am actually going to talk to the priest this weekend (I am going to church because of lent) and see if he has any answers for me, he is a new priest to me and from what I understand he is pretty intelligent, I will let you know with a PM on Monday what he says if you want. Should be pretty interesting :?
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-02-2007, 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by Eesa Abdullah
Also, who says that just believing in Allaah/God alone is Islam. The statement of faith is of two parts:

negation and affirmation

Negation: There is nothing worthy of worship except the One true God

Affirmation:
And Muhammad is His messenger.

This is Islam completely. All Muslims consider Muhammad (saw) a messenger however, there are differences in some sects who claim they are Muslims, but do not agree that Muhammad ibn Abdullah was the last prophet.
Who says that just believing in Allah alone is Islam? I do. That is my point. If your friend can define Christianity as she has, a belief system that as you point out is not new, but has been rejected by the church as heretical over and over again, then I can do the same with regard to Islam. No, I don't hold to all the views of Islam, but if you can have Unitarian Christians, then welcome to the world of Trinitarian Muslims. If you find that a horrific thought, now you understand my objection to the other. It is equally horrific to me.
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-02-2007, 12:44 AM
Salaam/peace :)

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
..... I think I will start to call myself a follower of Islam. Now, I would think that the rest of the Islamic community would object to that.

--well , to be a Muslim one needs to believe in ALL Prophets (pbut ) including Prophet Muhammed (p).


If one denies him as a Prophet , s/he can't be considered as a Muslim as s/he is denying the holy Quran , the Last Prophet (p) etc.


But , if someone believes that Jesus (p) is son of God , that definately does not make him/her a Jew or Muslim or Hindu .....s/he reads Bible as his/her holy book , she goes to Church , still why s/he can't be a Christian......what is s/he then ?



To believe that Jesus (p) is Saviour , is it a must to believe that he is also God ? Can't son of God be Saviour if father allows it ?


MTAFFI: I will let you know with a PM on Monday what he says if you want. Should be pretty interesting

---don't deprive us from that interesting discussion :statisfie

Reply

Grace Seeker
03-02-2007, 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace :)

--well , to be a Muslim one needs to believe in ALL Prophets (pbut ) including Prophet Muhammed (p).


If one denies him as a Prophet , s/he can't be considered as a Muslim as s/he is denying the holy Quran , the Last Prophet (p) etc.
You miss the point. That used to be the way it was in historic Islam. But, I've decided to change the rules. I want to call myself a Muslim, but I want to believe different things than the historic beliefs of Islam. I'm going to do with Islam what the Unitarians are doing with Christianity. I'm just going to start using that name, even if you say it isn't so. Too bad. If I want to call myself a Muslim, that ought to be enough to make me a Muslim, even if you fundamentalist types of Muslims don't accept it, don't worry, the rest of the world will. And then it is true.

I reiterate, I am just as much a Trinitarian Muslim as others are Unitarian Christians, one makes as much sense as the other. If you think the first does not make sense, fine; then admit that the latter does not either.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-02-2007, 12:50 AM
Sorry, double post.
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-02-2007, 01:19 AM


Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
..... That used to be the way it was in historic Islam. But, I've decided to change the rules.

:giggling:

bro , hope i m not offending u. It's not the tradition or man made law ......It's the holy Quran that says so.


The Clans


Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.



[33.40]

The Family of Imran


Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah

and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah;

but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.

[3.64]



And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear. 2.41


U can't be a Muslim if u think Jesus (p) is God ; also as it's mentioned in Quran that Muhammed (p) is the seal of the Prophets (pbut ) , it's a must to believe in him as the Last Prophet (p)............



If u can show 1 dozen verses from Bible that Jesus (p) is God , those who don't believe in it can also show u a dozen verses from Bible that there is no god besides One God ; so Jesus (p) is NOT God.

Jesus (p) said , my father is greater than all......so , why can't they believe in Jesus's (p) this saying & call themselves as Christians ? Those who are disobeying Jesus's (p) this saying , how come they are not denying the real teaching of Jesus (p) ?


I sincerely hope that i m not irritating u much :hiding:
Reply

NoName55
03-02-2007, 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
No. I happen to be a United Methodist, which most people would consider a type of protestant.

Why? Do I sound Catholic?
Is is it same as English Methodist Mission?
For example they dont allow any statues in their church or Alcoholic wine for holy comunion

peace
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-02-2007, 05:07 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;





:giggling:

bro , hope i m not offending u. It's not the tradition or man made law ......It's the holy Quran that says so.


The Clans


Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.



[33.40]

The Family of Imran


Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah

and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah;

but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.

[3.64]



And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear. 2.41


U can't be a Muslim if u think Jesus (p) is God ; also as it's mentioned in Quran that Muhammed (p) is the seal of the Prophets (pbut ) , it's a must to believe in him as the Last Prophet (p)............



If u can show 1 dozen verses from Bible that Jesus (p) is God , those who don't believe in it can also show u a dozen verses from Bible that there is no god besides One God ; so Jesus (p) is NOT God.

Jesus (p) said , my father is greater than all......so , why can't they believe in Jesus's (p) this saying & call themselves as Christians ? Those who are disobeying Jesus's (p) this saying , how come they are not denying the real teaching of Jesus (p) ?


I sincerely hope that i m not irritating u much :hiding:
No, you are not irritating me. And I hope that my outrageous claims (I do know they are outrageous) are not being taken too seriously, for it is not my intent to actually insult Islam or offend anyone.

But these objections you raise are the same that I raise regarding other who do not believe as the Bible teaches being called Christian. You said yourself that there are verses in the Bible where it teaches that Jesus is God. It is not something made up years later, it really is in the book that we believe is God's word.

Now Muslims believe that such teachings are corruptions and thus reject the whole Bible think that even what might be correct is abbrogated by the Qu'ran. I disagree, but at least I can respect that view. Unitarians like to go through it picking what they like and rejecting what they don't like. Thus the Bible isn't God's word at all to them, it is more like a recipe book. Select the dishes you like and serve them, but toss the rest aside as not of any value for you. That view I cannot respect.

What I would ask of the Muslims on this board is that they quit using the term Christian to talk about people who really aren't. If I who worships and submits my life to Allah as the one and only God, and who prays to him seeking his guidance in my daily life, and desires to do nothing more than to serve him and him only cannot be considered Muslim because I don't rever Muhammad as THE prophet, but only A prophet. Then surely you can understand that a person who rejects as true what the Christian scriptures teach:
(1) Jesus is the word of God who came in the flesh to dwell among us,
(2) Jesus offered his life as a sacrifce for the sins of the mankind
(3) Jesus died and rose again from the dead in accordance with the scriptures (here Jesus is referring to the teachings found in the Tanakh regarding the Messiah)
is also rejecting Christianity, and should not take such a name to discribe themselves. Doing so they make a mockery out of the Christian faith, pretending to be something they are not. When Muslims join them in calling these false Christians by the name Christian, they too are, in effect, doing the same thing.

Who says they are not Christian? The Bible does. And by their own website's description they admit as much but still use the name. They are simply Unitarian Universalists. Just leave off the name Christian when speaking of them and we will be fine.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-02-2007, 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
Is is it same as English Methodist Mission?
For example they dont allow any statues in their church or Alcoholic wine for holy comunion

peace
I am not familar with the English Methodist Mission, so I would guess that it is not the same. But there are several different Methodist bodies scattered around the world. Nearly all trace their roots back through a man named John Wesley. If the English Methodist Mission does that, then they are at least "cousins" with the United Methodist Church.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-01-2013, 02:59 PM
  2. Replies: 48
    Last Post: 10-29-2008, 12:24 PM
  3. Replies: 66
    Last Post: 05-20-2008, 06:47 PM
  4. Replies: 137
    Last Post: 09-14-2006, 07:28 PM
  5. Replies: 87
    Last Post: 05-20-2006, 08:32 AM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!