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AbuAbdallah
02-28-2007, 08:02 PM
salaam,

From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?
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Keltoi
02-28-2007, 08:42 PM
Because Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior...the only reason I need.
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wilberhum
02-28-2007, 08:55 PM
I don’t accept Islam or any other monotheistic religion because I don’t believe in prophets.
Since I believe in monotheism that leaves me an agnostic who does not accept any religion as being from god..
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snakelegs
02-28-2007, 09:04 PM
well, similar to wilberhum. i believe in one god but do not see that i need a religion in order to worship god.
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AbuAbdallah
02-28-2007, 09:14 PM
I appreciate everyone's responses, please keep 'em coming. Feel free to elaborate.
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England
02-28-2007, 09:52 PM
The answer to your question is simple. I don't believe in the teachings of Islam. I don't believe dating is wrong. I don't see any harm in listening to music. I don't believe my wife should be covered from head to toe. I don't believe that God cares how I live my life as long as I live it peacefully. I don't believe that it's imperative to worship.

The way I believe if I haven't done anything drastically wrong and with me being friendly to other people, not causing any harm I believe that I'm ok. I don't believe God will send me to hell through pain just because I don't go down on my knees 5,10, 15 times a day or from listening to music, looking, talking or flirting with a girl.
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Muezzin
02-28-2007, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I don’t accept Islam or any other monotheistic religion because I don’t believe in prophets.
Since I believe in monotheism that leaves me an agnostic who does not accept any religion as being from god..
I thought that makes you a theist?

Isn't an agnostic someone who believes that while there is no proof for the existence of God, that does not discount the possibility of God's existence? Unless the term can also apply to those who do not believe in organised religion, but do believe in a deity or deities.
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wilberhum
02-28-2007, 10:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I thought that makes you a theist?

Isn't an agnostic someone who believes that while there is no proof for the existence of God, that does not discount the possibility of God's existence?
You are right. That does not mean I can not believe in god. I only means you can't prove it. Also, I accept the posability that god does not exist.
I guess I'm just "Mr. Inbetween". :-[
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Lina
02-28-2007, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
well, similar to wilberhum. i believe in one god but do not see that i need a religion in order to worship god.

So,

You do worship God? But don't see the need of a religion (e.g rules and such you have to abide by?)

Who or what do you worship if I may ask?
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Muezzin
02-28-2007, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
You are right. That does not mean I can not believe in god. I only means you can't prove it. Also, I accept the posability that god does not exist.
I guess I'm just "Mr. Inbetween". :-[
Ah, then you are agnostic. I misunderstood you. I thought you were a person who believes in God but not in organised religion.
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nelly
02-28-2007, 10:17 PM
message 4 wilberhum
so wot do u believe is goin 2 happen wen u die?
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Pygoscelis
02-28-2007, 10:28 PM
My reason couldn't be simpler.

Allah does not exist, so there is no reason to worship Allah and be muslim.

I am not muslim for the same reason I am not a worshiper of Zeus or Odin.
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nelly
02-28-2007, 10:29 PM
u didnt answer the question
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Joe98
02-28-2007, 10:34 PM
Dig up the dead bodies all over the world and the question is answered.

-
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nelly
02-28-2007, 10:36 PM
its nt about wot happens 2 the bodies, it wot happens 2 the soul
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wilberhum
02-28-2007, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Ah, then you are agnostic. I misunderstood you. I thought you were a person who believes in God but not in organised religion.
Please read:
I believe (Know) the existance of god can not be proven of dis-proven.
I think (Believe) there is a god.
I accept the possible that there is no god.
I think all religions are the creation of man and god had nothing to do with them.

So what name to you give me?
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Muezzin
02-28-2007, 10:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Please read:
I believe (Know) the existance of god can not be proven of dis-proven.
I think (Believe) there is a god.
I accept the possible that there is no god.
I think all religions are the creation of man and god had nothing to do with them.

So what name to you give me?
Um... Wilber :)

So you do not believe in (organised) religion, but believe that there is a God, though you also accept the possibility that God does not exist?

Um..

Er..

Labels suck anyway. :)
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nelly
02-28-2007, 10:41 PM
wilber i aked u a question earlier, i asked wot u thought wud happen 2 u wen u die?
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snakelegs
02-28-2007, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lina
So,

You do worship God? But don't see the need of a religion (e.g rules and such you have to abide by?)

Who or what do you worship if I may ask?
i think i probably worship the very same god that you worship, but i can't claim to know.
no i don't think a religion is necessary in order to be a decent human being.
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czgibson
02-28-2007, 10:53 PM
Greetings,

The most obvious reason I'm not a Muslim is that I don't believe there is a god. I think god is a fictional character invented by primitive humans in order to explain natural processes they didn't understand, and to scare people into behaving themselves.

I find the fact that people still believe in god today quite surprising, to be honest. There is the obvious comfort factor that could explain it, but really I think it's time for humanity to move on.

I also disagree with many of the lifestyle rulings that Islam imposes on its adherents, but that's really a side issue.

Peace
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AvarAllahNoor
02-28-2007, 11:29 PM
Because...

Sarab Dharam Meh Saraysat Dharam. Har Ko Naam Jap Nirmal Karam.

Of all religions, the best religion is to chant the Name of the Lord and maintain pure conduct.

For me only Sikhism is befitting,
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AvarAllahNoor
02-28-2007, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i think i probably worship the very same god that you worship, but i can't claim to know.
no i don't think a religion is necessary in order to be a decent human being.
But you need Gurbani, yes? :statisfie
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wilberhum
02-28-2007, 11:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nelly
wilber i aked u a question earlier, i asked wot u thought wud happen 2 u wen u die?
When you die, your dead. The heare after are concepts of religion based on a superiority complex and an inability to accept the end of our existance.
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Joe98
02-28-2007, 11:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nelly
its nt about wot happens 2 the bodies, it wot happens 2 the soul

There is no soul

-
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wilberhum
03-01-2007, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
There is no soul

-
Agree. No soul, no need for an after life.
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Eric H
03-01-2007, 12:47 AM
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;

Agree. No soul, no need for an after life.
If there is no after life then it seems there is no God.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
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wilberhum
03-01-2007, 12:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;

If there is no after life then it seems there is no God.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
Is there a creater? I find it quite posible that the answer is no. I find it quite possible the answer is yes. Why did god make dinosaurs? I don’t know. I just don’t think he did it so we can have oil.

I just find too many problems with the concept of heaven and hell.
I just tend to not believe what I find illogical.

I find no correlation between no soul and no god.
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SilentObserver
03-01-2007, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
salaam,

From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?
I think islam is wrong, and there is no benefit to being a muslim. I disagree with the way that many muslims behave as well. Judge a tree by it's fruits, so to speak.
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AbuAbdallah
03-01-2007, 01:50 AM
Thank You all for your responses. I am waiting for a few more, then I will give one big response Insha'Allah.
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tomtomsmom
03-01-2007, 02:31 AM
The reason why I am not muslim is simple. It is the same reason why I don't consider myself to follow any religion. I just don't know! There are so many religions out there and they all claim that they are the only true one. So who the heck I am to say which one is right and all the others are wrong?
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snakelegs
03-01-2007, 02:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
But you need Gurbani, yes? :statisfie
lol. i don't need it like i need my qawwali, but i do like it and find it quite grounding.
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snakelegs
03-01-2007, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum;



If there is no after life then it seems there is no God.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
i dunno about that. i believe in god, but not in an afterlife. it isn't required.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-01-2007, 03:42 AM
So u think ur jus gunna die and thats it:? Sounds boring lol... :X
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wilberhum
03-01-2007, 03:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Thank You all for your responses. I am waiting for a few more, then I will give one big response Insha'Allah.
I hope that you don't think quoting some thing from some book that none of us think is any other than a book some Muslims wrote is going to destroy all of our beliefs.

I can only speak for me but that will only show how naive you are.
Do you think I just woke up one day and said, "Guess I will be an agnostic"?
If so you are sadly mistaken. I would be willing to bet that I have spent more time thing about god and his nature than most. Turning away from Christianity after 45 years was not a decision I took lightly.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-01-2007, 03:49 AM
Dude what is your deal? He didnt quote anything. Stop heating threads up.
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AbuAbdallah
03-01-2007, 03:51 AM
I hope that you don't think quoting some thing from some book that none of us think is any other than a book some Muslims wrote is going to destroy all of our beliefs.
Patience is a virtue.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-01-2007, 03:54 AM
^^Oh yea it is:thumbs_up
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snakelegs
03-01-2007, 05:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
So u think ur jus gunna die and thats it:? Sounds boring lol... :X
no, actually i have no idea what will happen when i die. i seem to have enough to handle with this life.
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ABWAN
03-01-2007, 05:30 AM
Interesting thread and interesting responses.

Obvious question I wanted to ask the non-muslims was already asked - which was what do non muslims believe will happen after death. And some of the responses were interesting and it makes perfect sense that they believe in the death of soul along with the body.

I for one, has always been on one side and I don't know/felt the 'other side'. But based on what I see happening in this world, namely, innocent little kids getting killed, violence all over the world, cheating, unfair treatment of people etc etc, I find it hard to believe that those perpetrators would just die without getting their deserved punishment. I find it hard to believe that an innocent little kid burnt to death would meet the same end as the one who burnt the kid. In my ideal world, I would want anyone who has done even a little harm to see its punishment. That's what makes me believe in an 'after life' to settle things.

The other thing I observed in some replies is that some of the non muslims believe that some of the islamic practices are unnecessary/redundant. I would like to know if those practices, by any means, have repelled them away from the good teachings of Islam. I would appreciate any replies to these questions.
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snakelegs
03-01-2007, 06:04 AM
abwan,
i understand what you are saying and it makes sense. belief in a hereafter would answer a lot of troubling questions.
i live with the questions.
i have no criticism of islam; i just don't feel the need for a religion.
i don't share its beliefs
-in angels
-revealed books
-judgement day
-prophets
by saying i do not believe in them, i do not say that they do not exist.
i don't know, but so far in my experience i have not experienced anything that would indicate that they exist.
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Trumble
03-01-2007, 06:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?

I found a spiritual path that makes both intellectual and experiential sense to me. The Abrahamic faiths do neither and are, in my opinion, clearly the fabrication of one or more human beings. They may well have had some, perhaps exceptional, mystical insight, but that's as far as it went.

I see no evidence of the existence of a God (all 'watch-maker' style arguments end up with the "so what created God" philosophical dead-end) and plenty to the contrary. As I've said before the 'Problem of Evil' is the killer for me; I'm fully aware of all the responses and find them totally unconvincing compared with obvious and simple answer to that problem, that there is no God, at least as Jews, Christians and muslims perceive God to be.

I simply cannot believe that if there were a totally benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God that the world would be as it is. It makes no sense; it's obvious it makes no sense, and all the stuff about an afterlife, tests and "God moves in mysterious ways" just seems a way of plastering over a huge logical crack with faith based waffle. I've nothing against 'faith based waffle' as such - Buddhists aren't immune from it either, but introduce that into the equation and I see no reason to favour any religion over any other except in choosing the one that makes the most sense to each individual.
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Pygoscelis
03-01-2007, 07:21 AM
After you die you'll feel the same as before you were born.

You won't.

There won't be a you to feel anything.

If it sounds scary, it isn't. We literally have nothing to fear from death - for death is nothing.

Now dying on the other hand, that doesn't look fun.
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Harrumph
03-01-2007, 01:00 PM
One reason i am not a Muslim or have not considerd becoming a Muslim is the country and culture i was brought up in(UK,Christianity).I had very little experience or knowledge of the Muslim way of life except for a few lessons at school which dealt with all religions.As i have got older and learnt more,read more and understood more of the world and life in general i have moved away from organised religion,i have respect for people of faith and would not critisize people for thier beliefs,but i see religion as a method to control people,i could not live my life by the laws and ideals written by people hundreds/thousands of years ago.

It is my belief that the soul dies with the body,all of us will die one day(hopefully when we are old,and naturally)i prefer to live this life the way i feel is right rather than be told how to live so when i die i wont go to the wrong place and be punished.

----------------------------------------------------------------

"The other thing I observed in some replies is that some of the non muslims believe that some of the islamic practices are unnecessary/redundant. I would like to know if those practices, by any means, have repelled them away from the good teachings of Islam. I would appreciate any replies to these questions."

----------------------------------------------------------------

ABWAN,im not going to get into a debate about this because i dont see any use,we will never agree and i dont want to fight with or upset people,i will just say that i find ALL religion has certain teachings or laws that are outdated and are at odds with what i believe to be right and just in todays society.
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Eesa Abdullah
03-01-2007, 01:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ABWAN
...I for one, has always been on one side and I don't know/felt the 'other side'. But based on what I see happening in this world, namely, innocent little kids getting killed, violence all over the world, cheating, unfair treatment of people etc etc, I find it hard to believe that those perpetrators would just die without getting their deserved punishment. I find it hard to believe that an innocent little kid burnt to death would meet the same end as the one who burnt the kid. In my ideal world, I would want anyone who has done even a little harm to see its punishment. That's what makes me believe in an 'after life' to settle things....
bismillah

assalaamu 'alaikum,

I would agree.
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czgibson
03-01-2007, 02:02 PM
Greetings Abwan,

You make some interesting points.

format_quote Originally Posted by ABWAN
Obvious question I wanted to ask the non-muslims was already asked - which was what do non muslims believe will happen after death. And some of the responses were interesting and it makes perfect sense that they believe in the death of soul along with the body.
I also agree with this. When we die, we die - that's it. There is no evidence to believe in an afterlife whatsoever.

I for one, has always been on one side and I don't know/felt the 'other side'. But based on what I see happening in this world, namely, innocent little kids getting killed, violence all over the world, cheating, unfair treatment of people etc etc, I find it hard to believe that those perpetrators would just die without getting their deserved punishment. I find it hard to believe that an innocent little kid burnt to death would meet the same end as the one who burnt the kid. In my ideal world, I would want anyone who has done even a little harm to see its punishment. That's what makes me believe in an 'after life' to settle things.
So your belief is based on wishful thinking. I would like to believe that I'll find ten million pounds tomorrow with a note attached saying 'This is for you, czgibson!', but that doesn't mean it's going to happen, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm going to change the way I live my life based on the assumption that it will. That would be irrational, would it not?

The other thing I observed in some replies is that some of the non muslims believe that some of the islamic practices are unnecessary/redundant. I would like to know if those practices, by any means, have repelled them away from the good teachings of Islam. I would appreciate any replies to these questions.
I can see sense in some Islamic teachings:

I think that Islamic monotheism is very pure, and certainly more logical than the Christian trinity, which even priests have told me makes absolutely no logical sense.

I think the principles of Islamic banking could be more ethical than Western ones, and deserve serious consideration. After all, taking interest used to be a sin in Christian lands (the sin of usury), before the rise of modern bourgeois capitalism.

I think that the devotion that many Muslims show to their faith is admirable, even though I think it is ill-founded.

I also like the way that Muslims look after each other as part of a global family. There is no doubt in my mind that Muslims feel more connected with their community at large than people in Western societies do with each other.

None of the Islamic rulings that I think are senseless (such as the prohibitions on pork, alcohol, music, flirting and so on) have prevented me from becoming attracted to Islam, since I am dissuaded purely by the fact that I am convinced there is no god. However, if I was a theist, those rulings certainly would deter me from taking the shahada.

I would also be deterred by having to believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of god. I genuinely find it impossible to understand how anyone can believe that that is the case, and I am sure that I would feel the same way even if I did believe in god.

Peace
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TABS19
03-01-2007, 02:14 PM
When I come onto this forum I come with the hope of learning about Islam and hopefully reverting. But the more I read into Islam the more I find things that I diasgree with.

I do believe in God, but I feel that religion divides people. As someone else said on this thread, religion is like having a set of rules so that we behave and distinguish between right and wrong.

Saying that I am from a Sikh family and my day to day beliefs are reflected from the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib.
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Eesa Abdullah
03-01-2007, 02:20 PM
bismillah

That is interesting that you say that Tabs 19, because in a nutshell I felt like that.
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HIJABI***
03-01-2007, 02:38 PM
The Quran very clearly says that the disbelievers have no sound basis for their denial of life after death. It is based on pure conjecture:

And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live (i.e. some people die and others live, replacing them) and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming. And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, their argument is only that they say, “Bring [back] our forefathers, if you should be truthful.” Say, “God causes you to live, then causes you to die; then He will assemble you for the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt,” but most of the people do not know. (Quran, 45:24-26)
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AbuAbdallah
03-01-2007, 03:04 PM
Salaam,
There seems to be many different people with many different beliefs. So I think it will be easier if we broke it down topic by topic.
First Topic: Are we in agreement that there is One Supreme Lord who created us?
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czgibson
03-01-2007, 03:09 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by HIJABI***
The Quran very clearly says that the disbelievers have no sound basis for their denial of life after death. It is based on pure conjecture:
It doesn't matter how clearly the Qur'an says it, if it's wrong, it's wrong. In any case, I would dispute the view that the Qur'an is clear on this point, or much else.

Your use of the word conjecture is unusual here; it is actually believers in the afterlife who are putting forward a conjecture (viz. that the afterlife exists). It is non-believers who are denying that conjecture. The burden of proof lies on the person who affirms the existence of something, not those who ask for evidence.

The sound basis that non-believers have is called 'reasonable doubt'.

Peace
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czgibson
03-01-2007, 03:10 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
First Topic: Are we in agreement that there is One Supreme Lord who created us?
I think the answer to that is fairly obvious if you read through the thread.

Peace
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cali dude
03-01-2007, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TABS19
When I come onto this forum I come with the hope of learning about Islam and hopefully reverting. But the more I read into Islam the more I find things that I diasgree with.

I do believe in God, but I feel that religion divides people. As someone else said on this thread, religion is like having a set of rules so that we behave and distinguish between right and wrong.

Saying that I am from a Sikh family and my day to day beliefs are reflected from the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib.
I'd rather be spiritually wise than religious.
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wilberhum
03-01-2007, 05:21 PM
Abwan
I believe in an 'after life' to settle things.
I think that is one of the appeals and reasons the concept of an ‘after life’ was created. Nice thought, but I don’t think it exists.
I would like to know if those practices, by any means, have repelled them away from the good teachings of Islam.
I don’t think rituals have any significant impact on the reasons I don’t believe. It is much more based on what I do not consider ‘good teachings’.

HIJABI
This is exactly what I was addressing in post #34.

AbuAbdallah
Are we in agreement that there is One Supreme Lord who created us?
Not really. I think there is the possibility that god does not exits.
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ABWAN
03-01-2007, 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
I also agree with this. When we die, we die - that's it. There is no evidence to believe in an afterlife whatsoever.
Up until 1492 (or 1421 as some may claim), there was no evidence that there was a whole continent on the other side of atlantic. Up until recently there were 9 planets. But things have changed recently. Some scientific 'facts' change in course of time. But 'after life' is something no one would know until they die and experience it themself. The same way as you claim there is no evidence for an 'afterlife', I could also claim there is no evidence to deny that and you saying - "when we die, we die". From what I know, there is no evidence to prove that the soul dies with the body

Originally Posted by czgibson
So your belief is based on wishful thinking. I would like to believe that I'll find ten million pounds tomorrow with a note attached saying 'This is for you, czgibson!', but that doesn't mean it's going to happen, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm going to change the way I live my life based on the assumption that it will. That would be irrational, would it not?
I see your point (as an atheist) and it makes sense. But for those who believe in God and still deny any religion or after life, it wouldnt make sense (at least to me). on the lighter side, I can certainly assure you that the way you live would *certainly* change if you do find 10 million pounds.

TABS19
I do believe in God, but I feel that religion divides people.
I don't think anything is needed to divide people. Difference of opinion is inherent in human nature. Blaming it on religion, I feel, is merely an excuse. Lets have a new island with just a handful of people (or a new thread in this forum with only atheists posting messages) who dont follow any religion. Do you think they would live peacefully?
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czgibson
03-01-2007, 05:39 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by ABWAN
Up until 1492 (or 1421 as some may claim), there was no evidence that there was a whole continent on the other side of atlantic.
There was to the people who were already living there! Also, people in, say, Europe weren't living their lives on the assumption that the New World existed or would be discovered, so I don't think the analogy quite fits.

Up until recently there were 9 planets. But things have changed recently.
True. Essentially that is a matter of scientific classification, although new astronomical bodies have been discovered too. Until very recently there was no standard, agreed definition of 'planet'. Again, people weren't basing their lives on the belief that previously undiscovered (or unclassified) planets existed.

Some scientific 'facts' change in course of time.
Of course. That is why science is the best tool humanity currently has for investigating the universe - it is adaptable, and scientific beliefs are only maintained if there is lots of evidence to support them, or if no better explanation has yet been found. If something you've long held to be true turned out to be wrong, why carry on believing it?

But 'after life' is something no one would know until they die and experience it themself.
Exactly. So, how many eye-witness reports do we have on the afterlife? None. Even assuming an afterlife exists, anything anybody says about what it is like is pure conjecture.

The same way as you claim there is no evidence for an 'afterlife', I could also claim there is no evidence to deny that and you saying - "when we die, we die".
The fact that there is no evidence to support the idea of its existence means that it is reasonable to doubt its existence. I'm not saying I can prove there is no afterlife, it's simply my belief based on the fact that there's no evidence to support it whatsoever. In fact, it's difficult to see how evidence for it could even theoretically be obtained.

From what I know, there is no evidence to prove that the soul dies with the body
The 'soul' is a very amorphous concept with various meanings, so I'm not sure it's appropriate to talk about evidence in relation to it. Is there 'evidence' that the 'soul' even exists?

I see your point (as an atheist) and it makes sense. But for those who believe in God and still deny any religion or after life, it wouldnt make sense (at least to me).
It depends what sort of god someone believed in. I think it's easy to see that it could make logical sense for someone to believe in a god but not to believe in organised religion. If their god was an indifferent, non-interventionist god, then it could be seen as rationally consistent not to believe in an afterlife as well.

Ultimately, we have no evidence for god's existence either, so any claims made about him are also pure conjecture.

on the lighter side, I can certainly assure you that the way you live would *certainly* change if you do find 10 million pounds.
It definitely would. :)

Peace
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AbuAbdallah
03-01-2007, 06:25 PM
Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?
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wilberhum
03-01-2007, 08:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?
Yes, if he exists.
But since there is no proof, all we can do is guess and try to apply logic.
One could also believe god it pure evil and present facts to support that logic.
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Skavau
03-01-2007, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?
I'm not sure you've been reading this thread properly. A good majority of the non-muslims posting have been atheist or agnostic. There is no agreement here that any God is the creator of everything.

Anyway, my reasons for disbelief in Islam:

1. It is a faith-based system.
Like other belief systems, it is based upon faith. It asserts that God, (the Islamic idea of God) exists based on faith. It is like believing in a flying teapot around Jupiter, or the belief that Zeus made the world. There is no empirical evidence and therefore it is unreasonable to believe in something based on faith.

2. Ritualistic Nature
The Ritualistic Nature of Islam, to which I see leaves nothing to be admired. Ramadam to me seems a health risk more than anything else and a total disruption to any normal sleeping pattern. The same applies with Islamic Prayers. I do not see any purpose in these.

3. Worship is unneccessary
If the Islamic God exists, as proposed by Islam - then I see no reasonable purpose for worshipping it.

4. Moral Issues
The idea of covering a woman as compulsory (by some) or encouraged to me is not necessary. I see nothing wrong with Homosexuality or Lesbianism. The manner of beating your wife as being acceptable (regardless of it being tapping and in the last-case scenario or not), violence is uneccessary. I do not accept them.
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AbuAbdallah
03-01-2007, 08:36 PM
But since there is no proof, all we can do is guess and try to apply logic.
One could also believe god it pure evil and present facts to support that logic.
I feel that our existence here is more than enough proof.
Is it by chance that:

Earth is the only planet with conditions just perfect enough to be able to sustain humans.

Humans are far more intelligent than any other creature known to man, no other creature even comes close, no missing link?

A smile is known worldwide for happiness, a tear is known worldwide for sadness.

Just look all around you.
Had the molecular structure and the hydrogen bonds of water been a little different, then no life would survive on earth.

Had the Earth's orbit been changed just by a matter of degrees, then we would either freeze or burn to death.

Who tells the biological cells how to operate, did a mitochondria or a nucleus or DNA do it's specified job just by chance?

When I look at the world around us it is more then enough proof just through the perfection of how everything operates.

Just look at how different we humans are from the animals. This should hopefully wipe out any if's.
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KAding
03-01-2007, 08:36 PM
There was already a thread similar to this one, with lots of interesting responses:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...not-islam.html

My response:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post612014
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Trumble
03-01-2007, 08:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?
Most certainly not. If I agreed with that I would be a muslim!


format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
There is no empirical evidence and therefore it is unreasonable to believe in something based on faith.
I don't believe in a creator God either, but we both believe in a great many things based solely on faith! So does everybody else.

For example, think of whatever system of morals (even if purely your own) that you happen to live by. What 'empirical evidence' is there that that code is 'right', or indeed anything other than plain 'wrong'? Surely you wouldn't claim you are a 'moral' person simply on the grounds that as you have managed to stay out of jail (assuming you have) you must be?
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Skavau
03-01-2007, 09:34 PM
For example, think of whatever system of morals (even if purely your own) that you happen to live by. What 'empirical evidence' is there that that code is 'right', or indeed anything other than plain 'wrong'? Surely you wouldn't claim you are a 'moral' person simply on the grounds that as you have managed to stay out of jail (assuming you have) you must be?
Morality does not 'exist' as objects do. Morality is the search for what is right and what is wrong. There is conflict over what is right and what is wrong. Everyone will base their morals on reasoning. (i.e: I believe it is wrong to murder because it is an infliction on another autonomous human's right to exist willingly.)

The only assumption made here is the assumption that morality is important, but that doesn't require evidence in the way that the assumption that something exists does. Morality requires evidence showing that is is reasonable to apply it (in whichever form) and human history has shown that morality is needed to create a stable human society.

My own moral ideology come from the reasoning that Libertarianism uses, which is 'you have the right to do as you will, providing that does not inflict upon others'. I base it as this:

The Line of Evil
This is the purpose for the application of morality in my view, and why it is necessary.

1. An Individual inflicts upon someone elses right with no justification, or little basis for justification. This is the action.
2. The result of the Infliction of an individual's rights is one which can cause suffering, whether physical or emotional. This is the personal result.
3. The result of suffering is the result of a negative within the society. This is the collective result.
4. This result of the infliction causes suffering. This is Evil.

If 1 does not cause either 2, or 3 it is still an evil. If 2 or 3 is caused from other means, then it is a mistake (therefore morally neutral in purpose) or it is an unhuman in purpose (nature, or if you profess the believe - supernatural)
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snakelegs
03-01-2007, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?
i would say yes, it is the most likely. however, i am well aware that this is simply a belief about what is, in essence, unknowable.
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Pygoscelis
03-02-2007, 02:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Would we all agree that God is the sole Creator, and above all imperfections?
Of course not.

Since God is complet conjecture, there is very little about God, or Gods you could say that we would all agree on. There may be many Gods and they all may be imperfect. And the creator of the unvierse (if there even was one) may not still exist, may not be imortal, and may not be a God.
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Pygoscelis
03-02-2007, 02:33 AM
All morality can be explained by self interest, primarily via two vehicles, custom and empathy.

People follow custom because they wish to be accepted in society. Being accepted in society gives people a world of benefit that one lacks if they are outcasted.

Empathy is seeing yourself in others and "feeling" their pain. The part of the brain that is activated when you are in pain is the same part of the brain that is activated when you observe something similar to yourself in pain. So you are motivated to stop or avoid both. And the more that something in pain is similar to yourself, the more you are motivated to stop it.

This is why we tend to care more abut people we know than those we don't, why we care more about family than strangers, a big part of why racism exists too (until you live amongst those who at first glance seem alien to you that is).

Compounded on empathy and custom is simple barefaced self interest (you oppose murder also because you don't want to be killed).

When you boil it all down, there is no aspect of morality that can not be explained by self interest. None of this requires faith - at least not comparable to religious faith.
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martynmadeley
03-02-2007, 04:26 PM
I do not accept Islam because i have read the quran. I am a christian and i have also read the Bible and the bible says thou shalt not kill although the quran allows this.

also it says that a man can beat his wife

it says that god chooses your guidence i.e. wether you believe or do not believe is by the leave of god when that is unfair it should be upto the individual

people will have an eternal punishment in the bible there is no such punoshment the only punishment is death
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AbuAbdallah
03-02-2007, 04:44 PM
it says that god chooses your guidence i.e. wether you believe or do not believe is by the leave of god when that is unfair it should be upto the individual
First of all, God is in control of everything. Secondly, it is up to everyone to believe because no one knows if God chose them to believe or not. We are all given the choice whether or not to believe, in the end whichever the individual chooses is because God willed it.

I do not accept Islam because i have read the quran. I am a christian and i have also read the Bible and the bible says thou shalt not kill although the quran allows this
I guess the Crusades as well as the Spanish Inquisition were not based on Christianity then.
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wilberhum
03-02-2007, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
I feel that our existence here is more than enough proof.
Is it by chance that:

Earth is the only planet with conditions just perfect enough to be able to sustain humans.

Humans are far more intelligent than any other creature known to man, no other creature even comes close, no missing link?

A smile is known worldwide for happiness, a tear is known worldwide for sadness.

Just look all around you.
Had the molecular structure and the hydrogen bonds of water been a little different, then no life would survive on earth.

Had the Earth's orbit been changed just by a matter of degrees, then we would either freeze or burn to death.

Who tells the biological cells how to operate, did a mitochondria or a nucleus or DNA do it's specified job just by chance?

When I look at the world around us it is more then enough proof just through the perfection of how everything operates.

Just look at how different we humans are from the animals. This should hopefully wipe out any if's.
Someone rolls a thousand dice. Later someone else enters the room and says:

[PIE]Look a thousand dice. Not 999 or 1001, exactly 1000. See how many 6’s there are? What is the chance of that happening? Look how close that bunch of dice are to each other. In that spot over there, 5 dice are touching. What is the chance of all these dice ending up just like that? You could throw the dice a million times and never come up with this combination. There is no chance that this just happened and it is proof that there is a god. [/PIE]
Right! It is just the same old watchmaker theory that falls every time.

If an asteroid had not hit the earth 75 million years ago, we might be arguing whether or not we evolved from six toed lizards.

If the Earth didn’t have conditions that were just perfect enough to be able to sustain humans we wouldn’t be here. You work on what I conceder a false dilemma. You think that our being here is all part of some grand plan.
I think it is just evolution and happen chance.
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cali dude
03-02-2007, 06:27 PM
Why ask why not Islam? Why does it have to be Islam? If anything, Sikhi is perfection. So everyone who seeks perfection is a Sikh.
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cali dude
03-02-2007, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TABS19
When I come onto this forum I come with the hope of learning about Islam and hopefully reverting. But the more I read into Islam the more I find things that I diasgree with.
Hopefully reverting? I am so glad that you found the truth. I personally don't know why Muslims call it reverting. Do they assume all people were Muslim at one point and gotten away from Islam, but when they convert back to Islam, they are reverting?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-02-2007, 07:03 PM
We believe everyone is born Muslim i.e. in Submission to God. If u want to ask questions, ask it straight forward.
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SATalha
03-02-2007, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude
Hopefully reverting? I am so glad that you found the truth. I personally don't know why Muslims call it reverting. Do they assume all people were Muslim at one point and gotten away from Islam, but when they convert back to Islam, they are reverting?
Exactly
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AbuAbdallah
03-02-2007, 07:52 PM
Someone rolls a thousand dice. Later someone else enters the room and says:


Look a thousand dice. Not 999 or 1001, exactly 1000. See how many 6’s there are? What is the chance of that happening? Look how close that bunch of dice are to each other. In that spot over there, 5 dice are touching. What is the chance of all these dice ending up just like that? You could throw the dice a million times and never come up with this combination. There is no chance that this just happened and it is proof that there is a god.


Right! It is just the same old watchmaker theory that falls every time.

If an asteroid had not hit the earth 75 million years ago, we might be arguing whether or not we evolved from six toed lizards.

If the Earth didn’t have conditions that were just perfect enough to be able to sustain humans we wouldn’t be here. You work on what I conceder a false dilemma. You think that our being here is all part of some grand plan.
I think it is just evolution and happen chance.
The perfection of our creation is far more complex than just throwing dice and being amazed at how they land. Why can't an animal even think about how it was created, but us humans are so different, so much more advanced? Chance? No way. A better example would be that everyone on this forum won the lottery without even buying a lottery ticket. Impossible. Same way that it is impossible for a working human body to be slapped together by chance.
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wilberhum
03-02-2007, 08:40 PM
The perfection of our creation is far more complex
Perfection?
Earth quacks, drought, floods, hurricanes, twosomes, and volcanic eruptions, how much more perfect can it get? :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:
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wilberhum
03-02-2007, 08:42 PM
Why can't an animal even think about how it was created,
Because there brains arn't big enough.

You are still operating on the assumption that this is the result of some grand plan.
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AbuAbdallah
03-02-2007, 08:53 PM
Earth quacks, drought, floods, hurricanes, twosomes, and volcanic eruptions, how much more perfect can it get?
I was specifically referring to the human body.

Because there brains arn't big enough.
Exactly! Why doesn't any other animal come close, why hasn't any other animal evolved to our level?

We do have a common ancestor, and that is Adam (alheyisalam):okay:
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wilberhum
03-02-2007, 09:13 PM
I was specifically referring to the human body.
Is Cancer, birth defects, club foot, blindness, deafness, and hermaphrodites, some of the perfections you were talking about?
why hasn't any other animal evolved to our level?
I assume some day after we have destroyed ourselves some intelligent life form will evolve. At one time nature tried big bodies; big bran was bound to come along. It is called evolution.
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جوري
03-02-2007, 09:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
big bran was bound to come along. It is called evolution.
What if you are allergic to "bran" as some members who shall remain nameless on occasion have demonstrated a serious rxn? what will come along then and what will we call it? Can you go on a gliadin free diet and evolve in an ant eater?
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wilberhum
03-02-2007, 09:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
What if you are allergic to "bran" as some members who shall remain nameless on occasion have demonstrated a serious rxn? what will come along then and what will we call it? Can you go on a gliadin free diet and evolve in an ant eater?
Oh my, pettie pettie. :grumbling :happy:
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Trumble
03-03-2007, 01:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Exactly! Why doesn't any other animal come close, why hasn't any other animal evolved to our level?
What's so great about man? Our 'level' of what? Our capacity for violence and self destruction? Our capacity to destroy our own environment? Our unique arrogance and selfishness? Or just our capacity to be miserable pretty much most of the time? Sometimes I, only half jokingly, think that the world would be a much better place if the wonderful 'creation' that is man was wiped out overnight and replaced by a more responsible species.

And as to some species we really have no idea what "level" they have evolved to because we have no real basis for comparison. What about cetaceans for example? Perhaps the only reason they have never developed (simple, I'm not making a case for equal intelligence) technology is because they simply didn't need it. And its a tad difficult to discover fire underwater!
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AbuAbdallah
03-03-2007, 02:38 AM
What's so great about man? Our 'level' of what?
Do you really think there isn't much difference between us and any other species? Our level of intelligence! Can an ape build a computer? Can a horse use other animals for transportation? We are just too advanced to even be compared with any other species.

The Theory of Evolution is just that, a theory.
Ever heard of the term "missing link", or intermediate species.
The well-known evolutionist Ager admits this: "The point emerges that if we examine the fossil record in detail, we find–over and over again–not gradual evolution, but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another." The sudden origination of living beings on the earth is proof that they were created. (Derek V. Ager, "The Nature of the Fossil Record", Proceedings of the British Geological Association, Vol 87, 1976, p. 133.)

Anyways, I am sure more educated people then us have argued the Theory of Evolution, which is why it is still a theory and not a Law.

Our capacity for violence and self destruction? Our capacity to destroy our own environment? Our unique arrogance and selfishness? Or just our capacity to be miserable pretty much most of the time?
It seems like you have a very negative outlook on life.imsad
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Trumble
03-03-2007, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Do you really think there isn't much difference between us and any other species? Our level of intelligence! Can an ape build a computer? Can a horse use other animals for transportation? We are just too advanced to even be compared with any other species.
That hardly answers my point. Sure we are (probably) the most intelligent species but why is that such a big deal? Why does that give us the right to inflict our will (not to mention our knives and forks, in many cases) on less intelligent ones? No, an ape can't build a computer - neither could man until relatively recently. The old standard version of that argument was that only man used tools.. until we found out that some apes do as well. As to the horse, consider my cetacean example. What other species could a dolphin utilize for transport that can swim any quicker than the dolphin can?


The Theory of Evolution is just that, a theory.
As is the theory of gravity, the theory of quantum mechanics, the theory of electromagnetism, the theory of plate tectonics or the kinetic theory of gases. Why is it only evolution that is ever "just" a theory? All science is theories. 'Laws', such as the 'laws of gravity', are just formulations within a theory and are meaningless outside it.


It seems like you have a very negative outlook on life
I have a very positive outlook on life, but I do believe an essential part of that is in accepting its realities. Nuclear weapons won't be decommissioned or global warming stop overnight just because some people can see the sunny side of life (or, more usually, prefer just to ignore what is unpleasant or why we might not be quite so great after all).
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AbuAbdallah
03-03-2007, 03:10 AM
Why does that give us the right to inflict our will (not to mention our knives and forks, in many cases) on less intelligent ones
That is not the point that I was trying to make. The fact that we are so much more intelligent is a sign from God that we were created. You can point at an ape all day and say we came from that, but it just does not make any sense.
Can you explain where life came from?
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Trumble
03-03-2007, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
The fact that we are so much more intelligent is a sign from God that we were created.
You are just assuming what you are trying to prove. At any point in time one species must be more, and perhaps even much more, intelligent than the rest. That's a logical inevitability assuming (reasonably) that intelligence levels vary at all across species - why should it be a 'sign' of anything?


You can point at an ape all day and say we came from that, but it just does not make any sense.
It makes far more sense to me than some creation myth!

Can you explain where life came from?
Yes, but you would find it no more convincing than I would your explanation of where it came from. Or indeed your explanation of where God came from.
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AbuAbdallah
03-03-2007, 03:47 AM
It makes far more sense to me than some creation myth!
Life can only come from life, no evidence of intermediate species (missing link), more like an evolution myth.

I think this conversation is slowly reaching the agree to disagree point.
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Trumble
03-03-2007, 04:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
I think this conversation is slowly reaching the agree to disagree point.

Yup. :D
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Pygoscelis
03-03-2007, 08:08 AM
Evolution is the best guess we have at how we came to be.

Creation is the best story we have.

The former strives for fact and blocks out desire.

The latter strives for desire and blocks out fact.

The former is adaptive.

The latter is prescriptive.
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Malaikah
03-03-2007, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
2. Ritualistic Nature
The Ritualistic Nature of Islam, to which I see leaves nothing to be admired. Ramadam to me seems a health risk more than anything else and a total disruption to any normal sleeping pattern. The same applies with Islamic Prayers. I do not see any purpose in these.
Oddly enough, Ramadan is the my favourite time of the year- the idea of worshipping God all day by sacrificing food and drink, keeping ones cool and not becoming angry, the sympathy felt for the poor and hungry, the coming together of the family and community, the enthusiasm to increase in good deeds, the increased awareness of God...:statisfie

You don't know what you are missing out on.

And the prayers are an excellent way of reminding a person of the purpose of life, dragging them away from the distractions of daily life to the remembrance of God and purification of the heart. They also work to expiate sins.

And it is not ritualistic, only an atheist could truly say that, because you have no idea what goes on in the heart and mind of a person devoted to the worship of God. I guess you don't understand the feeling of security and calm it gives, and reminder of ones position in respect to everything else... and the beauty of the fact that everyone prays in the same way.

Also, if you truly think that one can just pray by performing rituals without engaging their heart, then you are seriously mistaken.
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cali dude
03-03-2007, 08:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
We believe everyone is born Muslim i.e. in Submission to God. If u want to ask questions, ask it straight forward.

If people could be born with submission to God without having Islam in their lives, why do you think they couldn't stay that way without having Islam in their lives?
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Cyril
03-03-2007, 10:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
salaam,

From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?
I have the same belief in the one God as Islam.
What I do not believe in is the Quran. At every page you notice that it has been written by 7th century people, not by God.
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Skavau
03-03-2007, 12:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Oddly enough, Ramadan is the my favourite time of the year- the idea of worshipping God all day by sacrificing food and drink, keeping ones cool and not becoming angry, the sympathy felt for the poor and hungry, the coming together of the family and community, the enthusiasm to increase in good deeds, the increases awareness of God...:statisfie
Ritualism:
1. an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
2. prescribed, established, or ceremonial acts or features collectively, as in religious services.

Well you make it sound nice, but that is what every belief system does with all religious ceremonies. They all enhance 'spirituality' and closeness to God, should they believe in one. I have nothing against people doing it if it helps them, or enhances them as an individual - I was just assessing why I would personally not like the idea of doing it.
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czgibson
03-03-2007, 02:06 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Cyril
I have the same belief in the one God as Islam.
What I do not believe in is the Quran. At every page you notice that it has been written by 7th century people, not by God.
I agree. I have studied texts of many kinds, and cannot see anything to suggest that the Qur'an stands out to such an extent that it must be the work of a supernatural author. It seems to me to be obviously the work of human hands.

Peace
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جوري
03-03-2007, 03:12 PM
^^^^^ with all due respect that is because you have absolutely no knowledge of Arabic. If you did it would be as clear as day!

as for the uselesness of fasting... here is someone with an MD who begs to differ...
Medical Benefits of Ramadan
Muslims do not fast because of medical benefits which are of a secondary nature. Fasting has been used by patients for weight management, to rest the digestive tract and for lowering lipids. There are many adverse effects of total fasting as well as of crash diets. Islamic fasting is different from such diet plans because in Ramadan fasting, there is no malnutrition or inadequate calorie intake. The calorie intake of Muslims during Ramadan is at or slightly below the nutritional requirement guidelines. In addition, the fasting in Ramadan is voluntarily taken and is not a prescribed imposition from the physician.

Ramadan is a month of self-regulation and self training, with the hope that this training will last beyond the end of Ramadan. If the lessons learned during Ramadan, whether in terms of dietary intake or righteousness, are carried on after Ramadan, there effects will be long lasting. Moreover, the type of food taken during Ramadan does not have any selective criteria of crash diets such as those which are protein only or fruit only type diets. Everything that is permissible is taken in moderate quantities.

The difference between Ramadan and total fasting is the timing of the food; during Ramadan, we basically miss lunch and take an early breakfast and do not eat until dusk. Abstinence from water for 8 to 10 hours is not necessarily bad for health and in fact, it causes concentration of all fluids within the body, producing slight dehydration. The body has its own water conservation mechanism; in fact, it has been shown that slight dehydration and water conservation, at least in plant life, improve their longevity.

The physiological effect of fasting includes lowering of blood sugar, lowering of cholesterol and lowering of the systolic blood pressure. In fact, Ramadan fasting would be an ideal recommendation for the treatment of mild to moderate, stable, non-insulin diabetes, obesity, and essential hypertension.

In 1994 the first International Congress on "Health and Ramadan", held in Casablanca, entered 50 extensive studies on the medical ethics of fasting. While improvement in many medical conditions was noted; however, in no way did fasting worsen any patients' health or their baseline medical condition. On the other hand, patients who are suffering from severe diseases, whether type I diabetes or coronary artery disease, kidney stones, etc., are exempt from fasting and should not be allowed to fast.

There are psychological effects of fasting as well. There is a peace and tranquility for those who fast during the month of Ramadan. Personal hostility is at a minimum, and the crime rate decreases. Muslims take advice from the Prophet who said, "If one slanders you or aggresses against you, say I am fasting." This psychological improvement could be related to better stabilization of blood glucose during fasting as hypoglycemia after eating, aggravates behavior changes. There is a beneficial effect of extra prayer at night. This not only helps with better utilization of food but also helps in energy output. There are 10 extra calories output for each unit of the prayer. Again, we do not do prayers for exercise, but a mild movement of the joints with extra calorie utilization is a better form of exercise. Similarly, recitation of the Quran not only produces a tranquility of heart and mind, but improves the memory.

One of the odd nights in the last 10 days of Ramadan is called the night of power when angels descend down, and take the prayer of worship to God for acceptance.

Fasting is a special act of worship which is only between humans and God since no one else knows for sure if this person is actually fasting. Thus God says in hadith qudsi that "Fasting is for Me and I only will reward it". In another hadith, the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) has said "If one does not give up falsehoods in words and actions, God has no need of him giving up food and drink".

* Author, Islamic Perspectives in Medicine and Health Concerns for the Believers. http://www.ISLAM-USA.com.
E-mail: SATHAR3624@AOL.COM

Reprint Requests:
S. Athar, MD
Clinical Associate Professor
Indiana University School of Medicine
8424 Naab Road
Suite 2D
Indianapolis, IN 46260
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جوري
03-03-2007, 03:22 PM
More research on the benefits of Ramadan on diabetes .....for those interested... there is tons more research done which I'll gladly post here for anyone interested.

Ramadan Fasting and Diabetes Mellitus
Fereidoun Azizi, MD, and Behnam Siahkolah, MD
Endocrine Research Center,
Shaheed Beheshti University of Medical Sciences,
Tehran, I.R. Iran
Abstract:
The objective of this review article is to assist physicians who face the difficult task of advising diabetic patients about the safety of fasting during the Islamic month of Ramadan. There have been diverse findings regarding the physiological impact of Ramadan on diabetics. However, researchers have not found pathological changes or clinical complications in any of the following parameters in diabetics who fast: body weight, blood glucose, HbA1C, c-peptide, insulin, fructoseamine, cholesterol and triglycerides. In the guidelines section of the article, we strongly recommend diabetic patients continue their regular daily activity and diet regimen. It is also critical that diabetics adjust their drug treatments, particularly those patients diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (IDDM). We named these three important factors -- drug regimen adjustment, diet control and daily activity -- the "Ramadan 3D Triangle." With 3D attention, proper education and diabetic management, we conclude that most non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM) patients and occasional IDDM patients who insist on fasting can carefully observe Ramadan. Int J Ramadan Fasting Res. 2:8-17, 1998.

INTRODUCTION

Several of the world's great religions recommend a period of fasting or abstinence from certain foods. Of these, the Islamic fast during the Muslim month of Ramadan is strictly observed every year. Islam specifically outlines one full month of intermittent fasting. The experience of fasting is intended to teach Muslims self-discipline and self-restraint and remind them of the plight of the impoverished. Muslims observing the fast are required to abstain not only from eating and drinking, but also from consuming oral medications and intravenous nutritional fluids.

The month of Ramadan contains 28 days to 30 days. The dates of observance differ each year because Ramadan is set to a lunar calendar. Fasting extends each day from dawn until sunset, a period which varies by geographical location and season. In summer months and northern latitudes, the fast can last up to 18 hours or more. Islam recommends that fasting Muslims eat a meal before dawn, called "sahur." Individuals are exempt from Ramadan fasting if they are suffering from an illness that could be adversely affected by fasting. They are allowed to restrain from fasting for one day to all 30 days,depending on the condition of their illness. People diagnosed with diabetes fall into this category and are exempt from the fasting requirement, but they are often loathe to accept this concession. Physicians working in Muslims countries and communities commonly face the difficult task of advising diabetic patients whether it is safe to fast, as well as recommending the dietary and drug regimens diabetics should follow if they decide to fast. The lack of adequate literature on this subject makes it difficult to answer these questions. To judge correctly whether to grant medical permission to fast to a diabetic patient, it is essential physicians have an appreciation of the effect of Ramadan fasting on the pathophysiology of diabetes mellitus. In this article, we first review principles of carbohydrate metabolism and alterations of certain biochemical variables in diabetics observing Ramadan fasting. We then overview current medical recommendations that allow certain diabetic patients to fast and outline terms for diabetic patients, particularly IDDM patients, who should not fast but insist on fasting.

THE PHYSIOLOGICAL STATE OF DIABETICS DURING RAMADAN

Carbohydrate metabolism during Ramadan fasting in healthy persons

The effect of experimental short-term fasting on carbohydrate metabolism has been extensively studied (1,2). It has been uniformly found that a slight decrease in serum glucose to 3.3 mmol to 3.9 mmol (60 mg/dl to 70 mg/dl)occurs in normal adults a few hours after fasting has begun. However, the reduction in serum glucose ceases due to increased gluconeogenesis in the liver. That occurs because of a decrease in insulin concentration and a rise in glucagon and sympathetic activity (3). In children aged one years to nine years, fasting for a 24-hour period has caused a decrease in the blood glucose to half of the baseline figure for normal children of that age group. In 22% of these children, blood glucose has fallen below 40 mg/dl (4). Few studies have shown the effect of Ramadan fasting on serum glucose (5-9). One study has shown a slight decrease in serum glucose in the first days of Ramadan, followed by normalization by the twentieth day and a slight rise by the twenty-ninth day of Ramadan (6). The lowest serum glucose level in this study was 63 mg/dl. Others have shown a mild increase (7) or variation in serum glucose concentration (8,9), but all of them fell within physiological limits (6). From the foregoing studies, one may assume that the stores of glycogen, along with some degree of gluconeogenesis, maintain normal limits of serum glucose when a fast follows a large pre-dawn meal. However, slight changes in serum glucose may occur in individuals depending upon food habits and individual differences in metabolism and energy regulation.

Body weight during Ramadan fasting

(a) In normal subjects:
Weight losses of 1.7 kg. (10), 1.8 kg. (11), 2.0 kg. (12) and 3.8 kg (13) have been reported in normal weight individuals after they have fasted for the month of Ramadan. In one study that was over-represented by females, no change in body weight was seen (14). It has also been reported that overweight persons lose more weight than normal or underweight subjects(12).

(b) In diabetics:
A review of literature shows controversy about weight changes in diabetics during Ramadan. (6,15-24). In one group of studies, patients had an increase in their weight (17,21). In another group, there were no change (15,19,22,23) or a decrease (6,16,18,20,24) in body weight. While no food or drink is consumed between dawn and sunset during the month of Ramadan, there is no restriction on the amount or type of food consumed at night (23,25). Furthermore, most diabetics reduce their daily activities (15,23) during this period in fear of hypoglycemia. These factors may result in not only a lack of weight loss, but also a weight gain in such patients (26). (See later discussion about nutrition and physical activity.)

Blood glucose variations during Ramadan fasting in diabetics

Most patients show no significant change in their glucose control (3,23,24,27). In some patients, serum glucose concentration may fall or rise (28-30). This variation may be due to the amount or type of food consumption, regularity of taking medications, engorging after the fast is broken, or decreased physical activities. In most cases, no episode of acute complications (hypoglycemic or hyperglycemic types) occurs in patients under medical management (9,15,16,22), And only a few cases of biochemical hypoglycemia without clinical hazards have been reported (17,19,25).

Other parameters of diabetes control during Ramadan fasting

In general, HbAIC values show no change or even improvement during Ramadan (15-18,20,22,23,25,27,28,32). Only two studies have reported slight increases in glycated hemoglobin levels(19,31). However, one report has emphasized the same increase in non-fasting patients as fasting patients (31), and the other has shown a return to initial levels immediately after the month of Ramadan (19).

The amount of fructosamine (17,22,24,30,32), insulin, C-peptide(23,30) also has been reported to have no significant change before and during Ramadan fasting.

Energy intake and serum lipid variables during Ramadan fasting in diabetics

The amount of Energy (calorie) intake have been reported in some of the literature, indicating a decrease in energy intake (24,28).

Most patients with non-insulin dependent diabtes mellitus (NIDDM, diabetes type II) and insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (IDDM, diabetes type I) show no change or a slight decrease in concentrations of total cholesterol and triglyceride (15-19,27,28,32). Increase in total cholesterol levels during Ramadan seldom occurs (23). As in healthy persons (33-36), few studies have reported increases in high-density-lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol in diabetics during Ramadan (18,19,27). One report indicates an increase in low-density-lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol and a decrease in HDL-cholesterol (28). Until there is a standardization of diabetes Ramadan research in three fundamental factors -- the Three D Triangle of drug regimens, diet control and daily activity -- the benefits or hazards of Ramadan fasting on diabetics serum lipids is unclear.

Other biological parameters during Ramadan fasting in diabetics

Serum creatinine, uric acid, blood urea nitrogen, protein, albumin, alanine amino-transferase, aspartate amino-transferase values do not show significant changes during the fasting period (15,17,32). Slight non-significant increases in some biological parameters may be due to dehydration and metabolic adaptation and have no clinical presentation.

FASTING GUIDELINES TO DIABETICS

During the last two decades, a better understanding of pathophysiological changes during Ramadan fasting in diabetic patients has provided a few guidelines on how to advise diabetics who want to fast. Physicians working with Muslim diabetics should employ certain criteria to advise their patients regarding the safety of Ramadan fasting.

The following criteria should be helpful in making such a decision (20,37):

Forbid fasting in:

All brittle type I diabetic patients;
Poorly controlled type I or type II diabetic patients;
Diabetic patients known to be incompliant in terms of following advice on diet drug regimens and daily activity;
Diabetic patients with serious complications such as unstable angina or uncontrolled hypertension;
Patients with a history of diabetic ketoacidosis;
Pregnant diabetic patients;
Diabetic patients will inter-current infections;
Elderly patients with any degree of alertness problems;
Two or more episodes of hypoglycemia and/or hyperglycemia during Ramadan.
Allow fasting in:

Patients who do not have the aforementioned criteria;
Patient who accept medical advisement.
Encourage fasting in:

All overweight NIDDM patients (except for pregnant or nursing mothers) whose diabetes is stable with weight levels 20% above the ideal weight or body mass index (body weight, kg/height, meters squared) greater than 28.
EDUCATION OF THE DIABETICS BEFORE RAMADAN

NIDDM patients and IDDM patients who insist on fasting should be given a few recommendations about fasting (16). They should be forbidden from skipping meals, taking medication irregularly or gorging after the fast is broken (26).

The principles of pre-Ramadan considerations are (37):

(a) assessment of physical well being;

(b) assessment of metabolic control;

(c) adjustment of the diet protocol for Ramadan fasting;

(d) adjustment of the drug regimen e.g. change long-acting hypoglycemic drugs to short-acting drugs to prevent hypoglycemia);

(e) encouragement of continued proper physical activity;

(f) recognition of warning symptoms of dehydration, hypoglycemia and other possible complications.

RECOMMENDATIONS DURING RAMADAN FASTING

I. Nutrition and Ramadan fasting:
Dietary indiscretion during the non-fasting period with excessive gorging, or compensatory eating, of carbohydrate and fatty foods contributes to the tendency towards hyperglycemia and weight gain (21,23). It has been emphasized that Ramadan fasting benefits appear only in patients who maintain their appropriate diets (24,38,39). Thus, in order to optimize control, diabetics must be reminded to abstain from the high-calorie and highly-refined foods prepared during this month (38).

II. Physical activity and Ramadan fasting:
Several studies indicate that light to moderate regular exercise during Ramadan fasting is harmless for NIDDM patients (15). It has been shown that fasting does not interfere with tolerance to exercise (40). It should be impressed upon diabetic patients that it is necessary to continue their usual physical activity especially during non-fasting periods (41)

III. Drug regimens for IDDM patients:
Some experienced physicians conclude Ramadan fasting is safe for IDDM patients with proper self-monitoring and close professional supervision (16). It is fundamental to adjust the insulin regimen for good IDDM control during Ramadan fasting. Two insulin therapy methods have been studied successfully

1. Three-dose insulin regimen: two doses before meals (sunset and Dawn) of short-acting insulin and one dose in the late evening of intermediate-acting insulin (16)

2. Two-dose insulin regimen: Evening insulin combined with short-acting and medium-acting insulin equivalent to the previous morning dosage, and a pre-dawn insulin consisting only of a regular dosage of 0.1-0.2 unit/kg (25).

Home blood glucose monitoring should be performed just before the sunset meal and three hours afterwards. It should also be performed before the pre-dawn meal to adjust the insulin dose and prevent any hypoglycemia and post-prandial hyperglycemia following over-eating.

IV. Drug regimens for NIDDM patients:
Available reports indicate that there are no major problems encountered with NIDDM overweight patients who observe fasting in Ramadan (3). With proper changes in the dosage of hypoglycemic agents there will be low risk for hypoglycemia and hyperglycemia.

The authors of the largest series of patients treated with glibenclamide during Ramadan recommended that diabetics switch the morning dose (together with any mid-day dose) of this drug with the dosage taken at sunset (31).

V. Other health tips for reduction of complications:

1. Implementation of the 3D Triangle of Ramadan -- drug regimen adjustment, diet control and daily activity -- as the three pillars for more successful fasting during Ramadan.

2. Diabetic home management that consists of:

Monitoring home blood glucose especially for IDDM patients, as described above;
Checking urine for acetone (IDDM patients);
Measuring daily weights and informing physicians of weight reduction (dehydration, low food intake, polyuria) or weight increase (excessive calorie intake) above two kilograms;
Recording daily diet intake (prevention of excessive and very low energy consumption).
3. Education about warning symptoms of dehydration, hypoglycemia and hyperglycemia.

4. Education about breaking fast as soon as any complication or new harmful condition occurs.

5. Immediate medical help for diabetics who need medical help quickly, rather than waiting for medial assistance the next day.

6. Further attention on fasting during the summer season and geographical areas with long fasting hours.

VI. IDDM children and Ramadan fasting:
We do not encourage fasting for IDDM children. However, a few studies demonstrate that fasting is safe among diabetic adolescents. Of these studies, one study concludes that Ramadan fasting is feasible in older children and children who have had diabetes for a long time, and it concludes fasting does not alter short-term metabolic control. Nevertheless, fasting should only be encouraged in children with good glycemic control and regular blood glucose monitoring at home (25).

POST-RAMADAN SUPERVISION OF FASTING DIABETICS

After the month of Ramadan ends, the patients therapeutic regimen should be changed back to its previous schedule. Patients should also be required to get an overall education about the impact of fasting on their physiology (37).

THE RESEARCH METHODOLOGY ON DIABETICS DURING RAMADAN

From a methodological point of view, few research papers on Ramadan fasting are relevant because of the absence of control periods before Ramadan and afterwards, the absence of measurements during each week of Ramadan, a lack of attention to dietary habits, food composition, food value, caloric control, weight changes and the importance of the schedule during circadian periods.

It is recommended that all these factors should be taken into consideration and that all intervening and confounding variables should be under control. It is clear that more work should be done on Ramadan fasting to evaluate physiological and pathological changes with proper research methods (42).

Fasting during the entire month of Ramadan is reserved usually for healthy Muslims. However, many diabetic patients are allowed to fast periodically during Ramadan. The magnitude of periodic total fasting effect on blood glucose and hepatic glucagon depends on the number of fasting days (43), and this should be considered in all Ramadan fasting research activities.

CONCLUSION

The bulk of literature indicates that fasting in Ramadan is safe for the majority of diabetics patients with proper education and diabetic management. Most NIDDM patients can fast safely during Ramadan. Occasional IDDM patients who insist on fasting during Ramadan can also fast if they are carefully managed. Strict attention to diet control, daily activity and drug regimen adjustment is essential for successful Ramadan fasting.

To shed more light on pathophysiological changes in Ramadan fasting, in particular in Muslims diabetics, it is recommended that a multicentric international controlled clinical trial be employed to assess the effect of differences in gender, races, physical activities, food habits, sleep patterns and other important variables on physiologic and pathologic conditions during Ramadan fasting.

Address correspondence to:
Prof. F.Azizi,
P.O. Box 19395-4763, Tehran, I.R.Iran,
Fax:+98-21-2402463,
E-mail: erc5c@geocities.com

REFERENCES

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(3) Azizi F. Medical aspects of Islamic fasting.Med J IR Iran .1996; 10:241-246.
(4) Chaussain JL. Glycemic response to 24h fast in normal children and children with ketosis hypoglycemia. J Pediatr. 1973; 82:438-443.
(5) Haouri M, Haourai-Oukerro F, Mebazaa A, Nagati K. Circadian evolution of serum level of glucose, insulin, cortisol and total proteins in healthy, fasting volunteers. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 31.
(6) Azizi F, Rasouli HA. Serum glucose, bilirubin, calcium, phosphorus, protein and albumin concentrations during Ramadan. Med J IR Iran. 1987; 1:38-41.
(7) Scott TG. The effect of Muslim fast of Ramadan on routine laboratory investigation. King Abdulaziz Med J 1981; 1:23-35.
(8) Khogheer Y, Sulaiman MI, Al-Fayez SF. Ramadan fasting state of controls. Ann Saudi Med. 1987; 7(suppl.): 5-6.
(9) Davidson JC. Muslims, Ramadan and diabetes mellitus. BMJ .1979; 2:1511-1512.
(10) Azizi F. Effect of dietary composition on fasting-induced changes in serum thyroid hormones and thyrotropin. Metabolism.1978; 27:934-945.
(11) Sajid KM, Akhtar M, Malik GQ. Ramadan fasting and thyroid hormone profile. JPMA. 1991; 41:213-216.
(12) Takruri HR. Effect of fasting in Ramadan on body weight. Saudi Med J. 1989; 10:491-494.
(13) Sulimani RA. Effect of Ramadan fasting on thyroid function in healthy male individuals. Nutr Res. 1988; 8:549-552.
(14) Shoukry MI. Effect of fasting in Ramadan on plasma lipoproteins and apoproteins. Saudi Med J. 1986; 7:561-567.
(15) Ewis A, Afifi NM. Ramadan fasting and non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus : Effect of regular exercise. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul,Turkey, P 76.
(16) Al Nakhi A, Al Arouj M, Kandari A, Morad M. Multiple insulin injection during fasting Ramadan in IDDM patients. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 77.
(17) Klocker N, Belkhadir J, El Ghomari H, Mikou A, Naciri M, Sabri M. Effects of extreme chrono-biological diet alternations during Ramadan on metabolism in NIDDM diabetes with oral treatment. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 78-79.
(18) Khatib F. Effect of fasting in Ramadan on blood glucose and plasma lipids in diabetics with NIDDM. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 42.
(19) Uysal A, Erdogan M, Sahin G, Kamel N, Erdogan G. The clinical, metabolic and hormonal effects of fasting on 41 NIDDM patients, during the Ramadan 1997. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 44-45.
(20) Athar S, Habib M. Management of stable type II diabetes NIDDM during Ramadan fasting. First International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Jan. 19-22, 1994, Casablanca, Morocco, P 29.
(21) Rashed H. The fast of Ramadan: No problem for the well: the sick should avoid fasting. BMJ. 1992; 304:521-522.
(22) Sulimani RA, Laajam M, Al-Attas O, Famuyiwa FO, Bashi S, Mekki MO. The effect of Ramadan fasting on diabetes control type II diabetic patients. Nutrition Research 1991; 11:261-264.
(23) Laajam MA. Ramadan fasting and non insulin-dependent diabetes: Effect of metabolic control. East Afr Med J. 1990; 67:732-736.
(24) Mafauzy M, Mohammed WB, Anum MY, Zulkifli A, Ruhani AH. A study of fasting diabetic patients during the month of Ramadan. Med J Malaya.1990; 45:14-17.
(25) Salman H, Abdallah MA, Al Howasi M. Ramadan fasting in diabetic children in Riyadh. Diabet Med. 1992; 9:583-584.
(26) Sulimani RA. Ramadan Fasting: Medical aspects in health and disease. Ann Saudi Med. 1991; 11:637-641.
(27) Dehghan M, Nafarabadi M, Navai L, Azizi F. Effect of Ramadan fasting on lipid and glucose concentrations in type II diabetic patients. Journal of the Faculty of Medicine, Shaheed Beheshti University of Medical Sciences, Tehran, I.R. Iran. 1994; 18:42-47.
(28) Bouguerra R, Ben Slama C, Belkadhi A, Jabrane H, Beltaifa L, Ben Rayana C, Doghri T. Metabolic control and plasma lipoprotein during Ramadan fasting in non-insulin dependent diabetes .Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 33.
(29) Niazi G, Al Nasir F. The effect of Ramadan fasting on Bahraini patients with chronic disorders. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 24.
(30) Bagraicik N, Yumuk V, Damei T, Ozyazar M. The effect of fasting on blood glucose, fructosamine, insulin and C- peptide levels in Ramadan. First International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Jan. 19-22, 1994, Casablanca, Morocco, P 32.
(31) Belkhadir J, El Ghomari H, Klocker N, Mikou A, Nasciri M, Sabri M. Muslims with non-insulin dependent diabetes fasting during Ramadan: treatment with glibenclamide. BMJ. 1993; 307:292-295.
(32) Al Hader AFA, Abu-Farsakh NA, Khatib SY, Hassan ZA. The effects of Ramadan fasting on certain biochemical parameters in normal subjects and type II diabetic patients. First International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Jan. 19-22, 1994, Casablanca , Morocco, P 26.
(33) Aldouni A, Ghalim N, Saile R, Hda N, Parra HJ, Benslimane A. Beneficial effect on serum apo AI, apo B and Lp AI levels of Ramadan fasting. Clin Chim Acta. 1998; 271:179-189.
(34) Maislos M, Abou-Rabiah Y, Zuili I, Iordash S, Shany S. Gorging and plasma HDL-cholesterol - the Ramadan model. Eur J Clin Nutr. 1998; 52:127-130.
(35) Aldouni A, Ghalim N, Benslimane A, Lecerf JM, Saile R. Fasting during Ramadan induces a marked increase in high-density -lipoprotein cholesterol and decrease in low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol. Ann Nutr Metab. 1997; 41: 242-249.
(36) Maislos M, Khamaysi N, Assali A, Abou-Rabiah Y, Zvili I, Shany S. Marked increase in plasma high-density-lipoprotein cholesterol after prolonged fasting during Ramadan. Am J Clin Nutr. 1993; 57: 640-642.
(37) Omar M, Motala A. Fasting in Ramadan and the diabetic patient. Diabetes Care. 1997; 20:1925-1926.
(38) Tang C, Rolfe M. Clinical problems during fast of Ramadan. Lancet. 1989; 1:1396.
(39) Omar M. Fasting and some chronic medical disease: Modifications in therapy. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 73.
(40) Arab M. Different aspects of health in Ramadan among normal and diabetic persons. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec.1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 36.
(41) Horton ES. Exercise and decreased risk of NIDDM. N Engl J Med. 1991; 325: 196-199.
(42) Roky R, Kotbi S, Taoudi Bencherkroun M, Benzai B, Aadil N, Iraki I, Moussamith S, Tazi A and Hakkou F. Bilbiographic study on Ramadan effect on physiology, pathology and therapeutic. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 82-83.
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Reply

NoName55
03-03-2007, 06:30 PM
:sl:
Question:
If people are born Muslim (in state of submission to God) why don't they stay that way during their lives?
Answer:
The Linguistic Meaning of Fitrah
The Religious Meaning of Fitrah
Fitrah and Human Responsibility
Alienation from Fitrah
The Christian Doctrine of Original Sin
Appendix: Ibn Taymiyyah's View on Fitrah

Introduction
In attempting a definition of ‘fitrah’, I give an exposition of its linguistic and religious meaning. The religious understanding of fitrah is based on the positive interpretation of fitrah.
Suffice it to say that linguistic and positive religious explanations have one thing in common: both define fitrah as an inborn natural predisposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings. What makes our religious understanding positive is that it not only acknowledges fitrah as a natural predisposition, but also one which is inclined towards right action and submission to Allâh, the One God.
After discussing the implications for human responsibility, I compare, for the benefit of Western readers, the Islamic concept of original goodness with the Christian concept of original sin. I argue that the doctrine of original sin, from an Islâmic point of view, cannot be reconciled with the notion of Divine mercy nor the human responsibility. Since the doctrine of original sin features significantly in the Christian concept of human nature, and as Islâm and Christianity are the world’s largest revealed religions, this aspect of their creeds presents an interesting contrast, well worth investigating.

The Linguistic Meaning of Fitrah
‘Every new-born child is born in a state of fitrah. Then his parents make him a Jew, a Christian or a Magian, just as an animal is born intact. Do you observe any among them that are maimed (at birth)?’[1]
The word fitrah comes from the Arabic radicals fa ta ra, the verbal noun being fatrun. The root action means, he clove, split, slit, rent or cracked it. Note the usage of the first form fatarahu (He created it); that is, He caused it to exist, newly, for the first time. Thus fatiru’s-samâwât, the Originator or Creator of the heavens.[2]
The second form, fattara(hu) (verbal noun taftir), denotes repetition, muchness and frequency of the root action which means, as we saw, he clove, split, slit, rent or cracked it.[3] Futira (‘ala shay’) is equivalent to tubi‘a, which is the passive form of taba‘a (verbal noun tab‘un) he sealed, stamped, printed or impressed, being a synonym of khatama, he sealed. Ar-Râghib says that it means the impression of a thing with the engraving of the signet and stamp; thus taba‘a’llâhu ‘alâ qalbihî ‘Allâh sealed his heart’, that is the unbeliever’s heart. Similarly, khatama ‘alaihi, pertains to the natural constitution which denotes a quality of the soul; either by creation or habit, but more especially the creation.[4] Also, taba ‘a’llâhu ‘alâ amr – ‘Allâh created (him) with a disposition to the affair, state or condition’. Likewise, tubi‘a ‘ala shay’ ‘he was created with a disposition to a thing’ which is synonymous with jubila or futira.[5] Tab‘un – originally a verbal noun – signifies nature or an inborn disposition. Its synonyms are sajjiyah, jibillah, khalîqah, tabî‘ah and mizâj. These are names for innate natural disposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings.[6] Thus, fitrah, having the same meaning as tab‘un, linguistically means an inborn natural disposition.
The term fitrah literally means, creation; the causing a thing to exist for the first time; and the natural constitution with which a child is created in his mother’s womb. It is said that is the meaning in the Qur’ân (30:29), and in the central, opening hadîth.[7]

The Religious Meaning of Fitrah
In the context of the hadîth, according to Abû Haytham, fitrah means to be born either prosperous or unprosperous [in relation to the soul]:
‘And if his parents are Jews, they make him a Jew, with respect to his worldly situation; [i.e. with respect to inheritance, etc.] and if Christians, they make him a Christian, with respect to that situation; and if Magians, they make him a Magian, with respect to that situation; his situation is the same as that of his parents until his tongue speaks for him; but if he dies before his attaining to the age when sexual maturity begins to show itself, he dies in a state of conformity to his preceding natural constitution, with which he was created in his mother’s womb.’[8]
Fitrah is also associated with Islâm and being born as a Muslim. This is when fitrah is viewed in respect to shahâdah – that there is no god but Allâh and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh – which makes a person a Muslim. Fitrah, in this sense, is the faculty, which He has created in mankind, of knowing Allâh. It is the natural constitution with which the child is created in his mother’s womb, whereby he is capable of accepting the religion of truth.[9] That fitrah refers to religion is further shown in a tradition in which it is related that the Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, taught a man to repeat certain words when lying down to sleep, and said: ‘Then if you die that same night, you die upon the fitrah (in the true dîn).’ Also by the saying: ‘The paring of the nails is of the fitrah (i.e. of the dîn).’[10]
This meaning is affirmed by sûrah 30 âyah 30:
‘Set your face to the dîn in sincerity (hanîfan) which is Allâh’s fitrah (the nature made by Allâh) upon which He created mankind (fatâra’n-nâs). There is no changing the creation of Allâh. That is the right dîn but most people know not.’
Apparently Abû Hurairah, may Allâh be pleased with him, cited this verse after the central hadîth which means that, in his view, the fitrah of the hadîth is the same fitrah in the âyah. The âyah refers to the fitrah as good because the right religion is being described as Allâh’s fitrah. Thus according to Abû Hurairah, fitrah is associated with the dîn of Islâm.[11]
Since Allâh’s fitrah is engraved upon the human soul, mankind is born in a state in which tawhîd is integral. Since tawhîd is intrinsic to man’s fitrah, the prophets, peace be upon them, came to remind man of it, and to guide him to that which is integral to his original nature. The âyah describes a fitrah of primordial faith which Allâh Himself implanted in human nature. It implies Islâm’s essential message of submission to the will of Allâh as taught as practised by the prophets.
The Laws or the sharî‘ahs, which the prophets were sent with, are guiding lights to the essential faith in Allâh which is created in every human being. Furthermore, since this faith comes from Allâh, it naturally follows that only laws capable of guiding man back to it must also come from Allâh, hence Islâm is also called dîn al-fitrah, the religion of human nature.
That every child is born in this pure state of fitrah is also supported by the following hadîth concerning the polytheists:
‘It is related that the Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, said that he saw in a vision an old man at the front of a large tree and around him were children and in the vision he was told that the old man was Ibrâhîm and that the children who were around him were the children who, before attaining the age of discretion, had died. At this, some Muslims had asked hum: "And the children of the polytheists too, Messenger of Allâh?" The Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, replied: "The children of the polytheists as well."[12]
Being with Ibrâhîm meant being in Paradise, and this includes children of polytheistic families. It is clear, from the Qur’ân and from the hadîth, that every child is born with a pure nature, as a Muslim. Islâm recognises that all children, whether born of believing or unbelieving parents, go to Paradise if they die before attaining the age of discretion.
Imâm Nawawî defined fitrah as the unconfirmed state which exists until the individual consciously acknowledges his belief. Hence, if a child were to die before he attains discretion he would be on of the inmates of Paradise. This view applies to the children of polytheists as well, and is supported by the above-quoted hadîth. The legal implication of this hadîth is that all children are born pure, sinless and predisposed to belief in one God; moreover they are of the inmates of Paradise; however, if their parents are non-Muslims, the religion of their parents will be applicable to them in this world.[13]
Islâm is also called dîn al-fitrah, the religion of human nature, because its laws and its teachings are in full harmony with the normal and the natural inclination of the human fitrah to believe in and submit to the Creator. Like the word al-Islâm, the word dîn also means, according to Lane, obedience and submission, among other meanings. Allâh states:
‘And who is better in obedience (in dîn) than he who resigns himself to Allâh?’ (Qur’ân 4:125)
‘There shall be no compulsion in obedience (dîn).’ (Qur’ân 2:256)
Ad-dîn implies religion in the widest sense of the word, embracing both the practical aspects of the acts of worship and ordinary transactions of life, and the teachings of religion; and it is a name for that whereby one serves Allâh.
‘Truly, the religion (dîn) in the sight of Allâh is al-Islâm.’ (Qur’ân 3:19)
And, according to Lane, it means particularly the religion of al-Islâm. The synonyms of ad-dîn are ash-sharî‘ah (the law), tawhîd (Oneness of Allâh) and wara‘ (caution). Ad-dîn also comes from the verb dana, meaning ‘he had indebted’. This is significant, according to al-Attas, because man is indebted to Allâh for his existence and sustenance. The believer will realise that his spirit acknowledged Allâh in pre-existence, and that the debt that he must return is his self, and this can be done by service and submission to Allâh. This return implies a return to man’s inherent spiritual nature, to his fitrah. The one who submits to Allâh is called ‘abd (a slave) of Allâh, and his service is called ‘ibâdah (slavehood or conscious submission to the will of Allâh). By worshipping Allâh in such a manner, man in fulfilling the purpose of his creation and existence.
‘I have not created the Jinn and man but that they should serve Me (li ya‘budûnî).’ (Qur’ân 51:56)
Such worship or submission does not entail loss of freedom, for, freedom is to act as one’s true nature demands; that is, as one’s fitrah demands. Al-Attas succinctly explains the connection between submission, fitrah and dîn as follows:
‘When we say that such a man is fulfilling the purpose for his creation and existence, it is obvious that that man’s obligation to serve God is felt by him as normal because it comes as a natural inclination on the man’s part to do so. This natural tendency in man to serve and worship God is also referred to as dîn, … here in the religious context it has a more specific signification of the natural state of being called fitrah. In fact dîn also means fitrah. Fitrah is the pattern according to which God has created all things… Submission to it brings harmony, for it means realisation of what is inherent in one’s true nature; opposition to it brings discord, for it means realisation of what is extraneous to one’s true nature.’[14]

Fitrah and Human Responsibility
Man is distinguished from the rest of the creation because he has been endowed with intellect (‘aql) and free-will (irâdah). The intellect enables him to discern right from wrong. He can use these faculties to complement his fitrah and to please Allâh or to be untrue to it and displease Allâh. The choice is his. The prophets and Divine revelation are external sources of guidance to guide the intellect and will of man. The Qur’ân declares that the Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, enjoins the right and lawful things (ma‘rûf) and forbids the wrong and unlawful things (munkar). Man is responsible for his actions and accountable to Allâh for every atom of right and wrong that he does. It is in this sense of accountability that guides man to act in accordance with the Divine will. It empowers him to struggle against the wrong-doing of his lower self (nafs) as well as the negative influences of the social circumstances. The central hadîth makes plain that it is the social circumstances after the birth of the child that causes the individual to diverge from fitrah. Hence if someone follows an aberrant path it is not because of any innate wrong within his nature, but because of the emergence of the lower self or nafs after birth, and negative effects in the social circumstances.
The concept of fitrah as original goodness, in my view, does not merely connote a passive receptivity to good and right action, but an active inclination and a natural innate predisposition to know Allâh, to submit to Him and to do right. This is man’s natural tendency in the absence of contrary factors. Although all children are born in a state of fitrah, the influence of the environment is decisive; parents may influence the religion of the child by making him a Christian, Jew or Magian. If there are no adverse influences, then the child will continuously manifest his fitrah as his true nature. Since many infants are born with gross physical deformities, the maiming referred to in this hadîth is not meant in the physical sense; it means that all children are born spiritually pure, in a state of fitrah. The reference to animals born intact in the central hadîth should be viewed as an analogy to illustrate the parallel spiritual wholeness of children at birth.
It is precisely because of man’s free-will and intellect that he is able to overcome the negative influences of the environment and attain to the highest level of psycho-spiritual development, an-nafs al-mutma’innah, ‘the self made tranquil’. At this level, his inner and outer being, his soul and body, are able to conform to the requirements of his fitrah and the dictates of the sharî‘ah. He actualises his fitrah, and attains psycho-spiritual integration and inner peace.

Alienation from Fitrah
The central hadîth suggest that circumstantial (i.e. parental and other social) influences cause man to change and become alienated from his fitrah. However in Qur’ân 30:30 (‘There is no changing in the creation of Allâh.’) suggests that fitrah is universal unchanging given of the human constitution. This meaning is consistent with the linguistic definition of fitrah as innate natural disposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings. The synthesis of the meanings of both statements is that although fitrah remains a universal unchanging given of the human constitution, people may, because of the elements of intellect and free-will, decide and choose to conduct themselves in a wrong or unlawful manner. All the children of Adam, including those who deviated from the path of tawhîd[15], possessed fitrah. Civilisations which have been condemned and destroyed by Allâh because of their practice of polytheism (shirk) and unbelief (kufr), possessed fitrah. Fitrah is a universal and immutable given of the metaphysical human constitution, and as a rule, cannot be corrupted or altered. No wrong action can pollute the Divine spirit [modifier’s note: i.e. spirit created by God] which Allâh has blown into man (Qur’ân 15:29) despite the many generations of polytheism and unbelief. For example, a generation whose forefathers were mushrikûn (those who practice shirk) does not possess a fitrah of a lesser quality than a generation of believers. However, both shirk and kufr represent the antithesis of fitrah by undermining its very object and raison d’etre; kufr is a rejection of the oneness of Allâh (tawhîd). When a individual commits shirk or kufr he denies his own nature. Fitrah which is integral to man’s spirit (rûh) was created by Allâh so that he man acknowledge Him as the Lord Who has power over all things. Tawhîd is intrinsic to man’s fitrah because Allâh in His infinite wisdom intended for man to know Him as the One God. This is why man was able to acknowledge his Lord before his existence on earth, that is, in pre-existence state.
The function of the prophets and Divine revelation is not only to remind man about that which he already knows (that is, tawhîd), but also to teach him that which he does not yet know (that is, sharî‘ah). Man already knows tawhîd because of the pre-existent fitrah as well as his earthly unchanging fitrah. The prophets have come only to remind man of tawhîd; the choice is left to the individual, as suggested in the following verse:
‘Surely, this is a reminder; so whoever wills, let him take a way to his Lord.’ (Qur’ân 76:29)
Knowledge of the Divinely revealed laws, the methodology of worship and devotion, etc. are acquired by man from sharî‘ah which is based on Divine revelation and the teachings of the prophets. Since every individual is endowed with the innate knowledge of tawhîd, he is held accountable for his belief in Allâh precisely because of his fitrah. Not every soul, however, will be held accountable for not practicing sharî‘ah because knowledge of sharî‘ah is acquired only by those who received the message of the Divine revelations and the teachings of he prophets.
The distinction between the inborn knowledge of tawhîd (which includes the knowledge of right and wrong) and the acquired knowledge of sharî‘ah (which includes what is lawful and unlawful) is significant because of the legal implications of each. The mushrik, one who violates tawhîd, will not be pardoned for his polytheism, irrespective of whether he received the message of Islâm or not. On the other hand, the practice of sharî‘ah is only required from the Muslim while the non-Muslim (who did not receive the message of Islâm) is not expected to fulfill this obligation. An individual may be forgiven for not practising the sharî‘ah if he had not received the message of Islâm, but he will not be forgiven for rejecting tawhîd. The Muslim will thus be held responsible for tawhîd and sharî‘ah. Dr. Faruqi Ahmad Dasuqi,[16] who holds this view, adds that the hunafa’ [17] of past centuries had acknowledged tawhîd and will not be held accountable for sharî‘ah.
Apart from the chosen prophets, I venture to say that there is no difference between the fitrah of individual men: all men are endowed with the same or an ‘equal’ fitrah. The believer is in harmony with his fitrah because his instincts are directed in service of Allâh, but the unbeliever is alienated from his fitrah because his instincts are in the service of everything else besides Allâh. The reason for man’s destruction of himself and his environment is that he has become alienated. Nevertheless, he can overcome this estrangement his will and intellect with the Divine will and knowledge. It is man’s recourse to Islâm which will enable him to effect such a reconciliation.

The Christian Doctrine of Original Sin
Religions may be contrasted with secular philosophies in that the former recognise the transcendent principle of human nature while the latter tend to view man as a material being. Religions usually refer to this transcendent principle as the spirit or the soul in man. Most religions recognise three dimensions within man: body, mind and spirit. Secular theories of human nature tend to recognise only the body and sometimes the mind. Western psychologists such as Carl Jung recognise the spiritual dimension not as an independent unchanging reality, but as a part of the human psyche. Religions in general, with the exception of Hinayana Buddhism, recognise the spiritual dimension of man as a distinct unchanging reality of human nature. The first step towards self-knowledge is the recognition of our inmost spiritual essence which is universal in man and which is immortal. It is this innate spirituality which explains the urge at the heart of every man for betterment and self-realisation; and it is this human spirit which explains man’s capability to emerge out of darkness into light and goodness. This emergence has been the unfailing history of man: nothing can stop the human soul from projecting itself nearer to the source of all good, Allâh. Islâm and Christianity both recognise this innate spirituality but they differ in the methods by which to attain to this self-realisation, and they also differ in the methods by which they attain to this self-realisation, and they also differ with respect to their views of innate human nature. For the Christian view I need to turn to the doctrine of original goodness in Islâm. Such a comparison will bring into focus the divergent perspectives of human nature of two major religions of the world.
Christianity, in all the varied forms in which it exists today, is probably the largest religious movement. It emerged out of Judaism as a religion of salvation by faith. Christianity became a universal religion of redemption, and its world-renouncing strain has been strong for a great part of its history. Judaism and Islâm were never so dominated by monasticism and the ideal of celibacy. This is not to say that Christianity did not have a world affirming strain in it. The Kingdom of God was an imminently arriving state of this earth. With emphasis on the person of Jesus, peace be upon him, rather than his preaching, salvation was to be by rather than his preaching, salvation was to be by faith-union with Jesus in his supposed death and resurrection. Jesus, peace be upon him, was exalted to heaven and acclaimed as Lord, Son of God, and the meaning of Messiah – an anointed prophet-king – was altered radically.
Paul was the main figure to work out Christian theology almost entirely in terms of the doctrine for man. Jesus’ two worlds are reinterpreted in terms of a great contrast between man in bondage to the flesh and man redeemed in Christ. This theology is set out in the first eight chapters of The Epistle to the Romans.[18] The flesh (sarx) is man in his weakness and the spirit (pneuma) is the Divine breath and power of life which makes man inwardly aware of himself as a person. The whole person is either bound to sin or redeemed in Christ. As a rabbinically trained Jew, Paul had to integrate his new gospel of salvation with the old doctrine of creation and so he began the development of the Christian epic story:
‘Creation had originally been perfect, but Adam fell and mankind has since been in bondage to sin; but through Christ, the second Adam or Last man, the world or mankind are being restored to their original perfection. Thus in the Christian doctrine of man the central theme is that Christ is the Creator’s proper (=own) Man.’[19]
To make this scheme more intelligible, Paul had to emphasise both the parallels and the contrasts between Adam and Christ, peace be upon both of them. Adam was first made in the image of God, but Christ is the true and final image of God. Adam’s disobedience plunged mankind into ruin, but Christ’s obedience restored mankind. Adam brought wrath and guilt upon mankind, Christ has brought grace and acquittal.
This contrast profoundly affected later Christian thought. The Christian doctrine of man has two themes, the Divine image and the Fall. Since the latter theme is more directly relevant to my discussion of original sin I shall focus on this aspect, Adam’s disobedience plunged the human race into ruin, and fallen man could not of himself do good, please God or gain salvation.
A good example of the classic Christian doctrine of man is Milton’s Christian epic Paradise Lost (1667). The themes are the special creation of man by God, the Divine image in man, original righteousness, the Fall through man’s disobedience, the curse on man and woman, and the ensuing original sin. This scheme was wrecked by Darwinism and today liberal and humanistic theologians take over the evolutionary view of man’s gradual ascent, seeing Christ as a pinnacle of human development. Others, such as Rudolph Bultman and Paul Tillich, have built their theology on an existentialist doctrine of man.
The Christian is born in sin and in an impure state, and cannot redeem himself by his own inner resources, but only through Christ. Salvation for the Christian is centred on an external entity – the mystical body of Christ in which the Christian must participate in order to be saved.
By contrast, in Islâm the redemptive potential is centred in the individual himself, who engages in meaningful intercourse with the guidance provided by the Qur’ân and the Sunnah, Salvation in Islâm depends on faith (îmân) and good conduct (ihsân), and not on faith alone. The Qur’ân emphasises the exertion of will, for ‘there is nothing for man but that which he strove for’. This notion of the will also has implications for responsibility. A person is responsible only for the manner in which he exercised his own will and not the will of other persons.
Christians believe that Christ has paid the wages of sin through his death, and having suffered for all men’s sins. Salvation is based on this faith. Without the doctrine of original sin there would be no need for a saviour and, consequently, the trinity, the crucifixion and the resurrection would become meaningless.
Islâm rejects the premises of these doctrines, especially the concept of original sin which is alien to Islâm and inconceivable to the Muslim mind. Islâm has a different version of the Fall. Adam acknowledged that he had gone astray and sincerely sought Allâh’s forgiveness which was granted to him unconditionally. Adam and his progeny descended from bliss to the earth because of his error, and yet, none of his children inherited the blame for his error. The volitional implication of fitrah is that man is responsible for his own wrong actions. It is inconceivable to Muslim thinking that mankind should be punished for wrong actions that others did. The concept of Divine forgiveness features strongly in the Qur’ân, for Allâh accepts the sincere repentance of His slaves.
‘But the devil made them slip from it, and caused them to depart from the state in which they were. And We said, "Down with you and be henceforth enemies unto one another; and you shall have in the land a state of settledness and necessities of life for a period."
Then Adam received words (of guidance) from his Lord and He accepted his repentance: truly, He is the Acceptor of Repentance, the Compassionate.’ (Qur’ân 2:36-37)
Tawbah (literally, turning, i.e. away from wrong action, and to Allâh) or repentance plays a very significant and decisive role in a Muslim’s life. Although man is born in a state of original goodness or fitrah, he is also subject to temptation and folly. Allâh has granted him the ability and opportunity to repent which means that he should admit his errors and turn remorsefully away from them to Allâh.
Knowledge of Divine mercy as well as knowledge of the innate goodness of the human fitrah, serves three very important functions: firstly it gives the believer hope of salvation and success; secondly, it gives him confidence in his own potential to do right and resist wrong; thirdly, it exhorts and admonishes him to actively pursue all that is right and resist all that is wrong. These are the merits of sincere repentance. Just as the Prophet Adam, peace be upon him, repented and was pardoned for his wrong action, so may his descendents repent and be pardoned for their wrong actions.
Confession and penance is a fundamental pillar of the Roman Catholic Church, but for the rest of the Christian world it holds virtually no fundamental value. Belief in Christ as a Saviour is of primary importance, even for the Catholic who engages in penance mainly as a means of self-discipline or self-retribution. No amount of confession or repentance can save the Christian from the belief in Christ as the Saviour. Adherence to this doctrine can be problematic when viewed in the light of the doctrine of original sin.
Neither Islâm, common sense or modern Western law, hold a person responsible for the deeds of someone else. Certain awkward questions may also be posed to the adherents of this doctrine. For example, does inheritance of Adam’s sin mean that man is born innately sinful or guilty of a sin he did not commit or both? Did Christ’s suffering change human nature or did it only absolve man of guilt for the sin he never committed, or both? If man is born innately evil and sinful why is he still capable of choosing good over evil? What happened to the souls before Christ who could have had the benefit of the latter’s alleged suffering; were they saved by the Saviour they neither knew nor acknowledged or were they just too unfortunate to be born at the wrong time? These questions are asked in all sincerity of the believing Christian whose faith every Muslim is required to respect.
To conclude, fitrah may be defined as a natural predisposition for good and for submission to the One God… While the concept of fitrah offers a hopeful and positive outlook for the Muslim, the doctrine of original sin is fraught with negative connotations and complex dogma. To the average Christian, man is impure and bound for eternal ****ation, even if he leads a life of virtue, if he does not accept Christ as his saviour. Apart from the Christian theory, there are secular theories of human nature which are also subject to determinism, fatalism and pessimism.
If, in this chapter, the reader has not gained a clear conception of what fitrah is, it should at least be clear to him what it is not. Fitrah does not refer to man’s outward behaviour; not to his psyche, personality or character. A definition of fitrah does not involve the role of man as an individual or a collectivity as such. Rather, fitrah pertains to the deep, common spiritual essence of man. It is humankind’s natural and universal innate predisposition for goodness and submission to One God.

Notes and References
[1] I. M. Hanîf, Sahîh Muslim bisharh al-Nawawî, Book of Qadr, Vol. 16 (al-Matba‘at al-Misriyyah bi al-Azhari, 1930) p. 207.
[2] Ibn Manzûr, Lisân al-‘Arab al-Muhît. Vol. 4., ed. A. al-‘Alayali, (beirut: Dâru Lisân al-‘Arab, 1988), pp. 1108-1109; cf. also, al-Isfahânî, al-Raghîb, Mu‘jam Mufradat Alfaz al-Qur’ân ed. Nadîm Mar‘ashlî. (Dârul Karîb al-‘Arabi, 1984) p. 2415; cf. also, Lane, E. W., Arabic-English Lexicon. 2 volumes, Cambridge: The Islamic Texts Society, 1972), p. 397.
[3] This repetition also applies to the 7th form verb infatara, 5th form tafattara and the 1st form fatara, e.g. idha’s-samâ’unfatarat ‘When the heaven shall be cleft’, (Qur’ân 82:1), and yakadu’s-samâwâtu yatafttarna minhu ‘The heavens almost become repeatedly rent in consequence thereof’, (Qur’ân 19:92), and tafatarat qadamahu ‘his feet became cracked’.
[4] Lane, Ibid., p. 1823; al-Isfahânî, al-Raghîb, Kitâb al-Dharî‘ah ila Makarim al-Sharî‘ah. Ed. Abû’l-Yazîd al-‘Ajamî, (Cairo, 1987), p. 113.
[5] Lane, Ibid, p. 1823.
[6] Yasien Mohamed, The Islamic Conception of Human Nature with Special Reference to the Development of an Islamic Psychology. unpublished thesis, (Cape Town: Department of Religious Studies, University of Cape Town, 1986), p. 74; cf. also, Lane, Ibid., p. 1823; al-Isfahânî, al-Dharî‘ah, op.cit., p. 113; al-Isfahânî, Alfaz, op.cit., p. 310.
[7] Ibn Manzûr, Lisân al-‘Arab, op.cit., p. 1109; cf. also Lane, Arabic-English Lexicon, op.cit, pp. 2415-2416.
[8] Ibn Mazûr, Ibid. p. 1109; Lane, Ibid., pp. 2415-16.
[9] ‘Alî ibn Muhammad al-Sayyad al-Sharîf Jurjânî, Kitâb al-Ta‘rifat ed. ‘Abdul Mun‘îm al-Hafani. (Cairo: Dârul Rashad, 1991), p. 190; cf. also Ibn Manzûr and Lane, Idid.
[10] See Ibn Manzûr and Lane, Ibid.
[11] Muhammad al-Ansârî A. A. Qurtubî, Al Jâmi‘u al Ahkâm al-Qur’ân Vol. 12 Part 14. (Cairo: al-Maktabu al-‘Arabiyyah, 1967), p. 25.
[12] Ibid, p. 30; cf. Ibn Manzûr, Ibid.
[13] Ibn Taymîyya Dar‘u Ta‘arud al ‘Aql wa al Naql. Vol. 8, ed. Muhammad Rashad Sa’im. (Riyadh: Jami‘at al-Imâm Muhammad ibn Sa‘ud al-Islamiyyah, 1981), p. 382-3.
[14 ] S.M.N. Al-Attas, Islam, Secularism and the Philosophy of the Future, London: Mansell Publishing Limited, 1985, pp. 57-58.
[15] cf. Lane, op.cit., for the meaning of the ad-dîn.
[16] Tawhîd is the corner-stone of the Islâmic belief which was taught by all the prophets. The Arabs deviated form tawhîd but it was restored to its original purity with the advent of Muhammad, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, Divine Unity is expressed as lâ ilâha ill’Allâh ‘There is no deity but Allâh’ and together with his expression of Muhammadun Rasûlu’llah ‘Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh’, a person is admitted into the fold of Islâm. Tawhîd implies that Allâh is One, and that He is one and unique in His essence (dhât), His attributes (sifât), and His works. This monotheistic concept of Allâh liberates man from subservience to everything and everyone, and is the basis for the unity of mankind. The antithesis of tawhîd is shirk which is considered to be the only unforgivable wrong action (Qur’ân 4:48), and it signifies the association of partners with Allâh. Blind submission to one’s own desires is also described as shirk (Qur’ân 25:43).
[17] Dasuqî, F. A. Muhadarat fî al-‘Aqîdah al-Islâmiyyah, (Alexandria: Darul Da‘wah, 1983), p. 28.
[18] The hanîf (singular of hunafa’) is one who naturally rejects polytheism and idolatry while inclined towards acceptance of tawhîd. In the Qur’ânic context, the hanîf refers particularly to those who followed the faith of Ibrâhîm as well as those who accepted tawhîd during the Jâhiliyyah period. After the advent of the Prophet Muhammad, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, the term acquired a more circumscribed meaning – one who follows the dîn of Muhammad, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace. Dr. Dasuqî cites Zaid ibn ‘Amr ibn Nufayl and Qais ibn Sa‘ada as examples of hunafâ’ in pre-Islâmic times. A more well-known hanîf was Waraqa ibn Nawfal, the cousin of the Prophet’s wife, Khadîjah.
[19] Don Cupitt, The Nature of Man, (London: Sheldon Press, 1979), pp. 33-34.

Appendix: Ibn Taymiyyah's View on Fitrah
According to Ibn Taymiyyah every child is born in a state of fitrah; in a state of innate goodness, and it is the social environment which cause the individual to deviate from this state. There is a natural correspondence between human nature and Islâm; man is suited for Dîn al-Islâm and responds spontaneously to its teachings. Dîn al-Islâm provides the ideal conditions for sustaining and developing man’s innate qualities.[1] Man’s nature has inherently within it more than simply knowledge of Allâh, but a love of Him and the will to pracitise the religion (dîn) sincerely as a true hanîf. This points to the element of the individual will, a pro-active drive which purposefully seeks to realise Islamic beliefs and practices. Ibn Taymiyyah responded to Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr’s notion of fitrah and argued that it is not merely a dormant potential which should be awakened from without, but rather the source of awakening itself, within the individual. The hanîf is not the one who reacts to sources of guidance, but one who is already guided and seeks to establish it consciously in practice.[2] The central hadîth refers to a change which may be affected by the social environment; Ibn Taymiyyah maintained that this change is one from a given state, a positive state of Islâm, to Judaism, Christianity, Magianism, etc. The social environment may be also guide the individual to îmân and good conduct so that the motivation in him to do good may be expressed, aided by external sources of guidance.[3] Ibn Taymiyyah was of the view that the human soul possesses an innate receptive capacity and a need for Islâmic guidance while Dîn al-Islâm is an adequate stimulus for this capacity and a sufficient fulfillment of this need.
Moreover, if sources of external misguidance are absent, the fitrah of the individual will be actualised involuntarily and good will prevail.[4] In support of this view, Ibn Taymiyyah cited Abû Hurairah’s reference to the central Qur’ânic âyah (30:30) after the latter’s quoting the central hadîth.[5] In other words, whenever Abû Hurairah, may Allâh be pleased with him, reported the central hadîth, he used to recite after it the following Qur’ânic âyah:
‘Set your face to the dîn in sincerity (hanîfan: as a hanîf) which is Allâh’s fitrah (the nature made by Allâh) upon which He created mankind (fatara’n-nâs). There is no changing the creation of Allâh. That is the right dîn but most people know not.’ (Qur’ân 30:30)
Abû Hurairah’s citation of this âyah after the hadîth apparently means that the fitrah of the hadîth refers to the fitrah of the Qur’ânic âyah, which is a good fitrah because the right dîn is being described as Allâh’s fitrah. The logic of this argument is that Abû Hurairah, may Allâh be pleased with him, meant that fitrah is associated with Islâm (al-Qurtubi, 1967). And according to Ibn Taymiyyah it is the social circumstances, as represented by the parents, which causes the child to be a Jew, a Christian or a Magian.
Since the Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, did not mention the parents changing the child from a state of fitrah to a state of Islâm, we must suppose that the child’s state at birth is in harmony with Islâm, in the widest sense of submission to Allâh (Ibn Taymiyyah, 1981). Another implication of this view of fitrah is that, while good constitutes the inner state of a person’s nature, evil is something that happens after the person is born. That is to say, deviation after birth is due to the corrupting influence of the social environment.
Ibn Qayyim (d. 751 A.H.), a disciple of Ibn Taymiyyah, held similar views on the positive interpretation. He did not regard fitrah as mere knowledge of right and wrong at birth but as an active, inborn love and acknowledgement of Allâh which reaffirms His Lordship. He also explained that Qur’ân 16:78 (‘And Allâh brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers, knowing nothing…’) does not refer to innate knowledge of Allâh or Islâm, but rather to knowledge of the particulars of religion in general which is why the latter type of knowledge is absent at birth. Moreover, fitrah is not merely the capacity or readiness to receive Islâm, in which such a condition can be unfulfilled when parents choose Judaism or Christianity as the child’s religion; Ibn Qayyim argued that fitrah is truly an inborn predisposition to acknowledge Allâh, tawhîd and dîn al-Islâm.[6]
Imâm an-Nawawî (d. 676 A.H. / 1277 C.E.), a Shâfi‘î faqîh who wrote one of the principal commentaries on Sahîh Muslim, defined fitrah as the unconfirmed state of îmân before the individual consciously affirms his belief. We have already alluded to this positive view of fitrah and the implications it has for children whose parents are polytheists.
Al-Qurtubî (d. 671 A.H.) supported the positive view of fitrah by using the analogy of the physically unblemished animals in the central hadîth to illustrate that, just as animals are born intact, so are humans born with the flawless capacity to accept the truth; and, just as the animal may be injured or scarred, so can fitrah be corrupted or altered by external sources of misguidance.

Notes and References
[1] Ibn Taymiyya Dar‘u Ta‘arud al ‘Aql wa al Naql. Vol. 8, ed. Muhammad Rashad Sa’im. (Riyadh: Jami‘at al-Imam Muhammad ibn Sa‘ud al-Islamiyyah, 1981), Vol. VIII, p. 383 and pp. 444-448.
[2] Ibid., p. 385.
[3] Ibid., p. 385.
[4] Ibid., pp. 463-364.
[5] Ibid., p. 367. cf. also al-Qurtubî, Al-Jâmi‘u al-Ahkâm al-Qur’ân, p. 25.
[6] al-Asqalânî, Fathul Barî, p. 198
Reply

cali dude
03-03-2007, 06:46 PM
NoName55, are you answering my question here?

I asked
If people could be born with submission to God without having Islam in their lives, why do you think they couldn't stay that way without having Islam in their lives?
So are we saying that even though a child is born with submission to God but s/he doesn't stay this way because s/he is introduced to an organized religion? But if a child is not introduced to an organized religion and there is nothing done to break his submission to God, why do you think it isn't possible for her/him to stay submitted to God?

I personally think that you should no problem with people being introduced Judaism and Christianity as they were the religions before Islam on this side of the world. Therefore, they must have some kind of association with God and also apparently according to some of the people here they also believe that their prophets were also considered true prophets even in Islam.
Reply

NoName55
03-03-2007, 07:01 PM
NoName55, are you answering my question here?
Ahlan Brother
yes!
So are we saying that even though a child is born with submission to God but s/he doesn't stay this way because s/he is introduced to an organized religion? But if a child is not introduced to an organized religion and there is nothing done to break his submission to God, why do you think it isn't possible for her/him to stay submitted to God?

I personally think that you should no problem with people being introduced Judaism and Christianity as they were the religions before Islam on this side of the world. Therefore, they must have some kind of association with God and also apparently according to some of the people here they also believe that their prophets were also considered true prophets even in Islam.
I refer you to my previous reply, as one is neither able to be any more comprehensive than that nor is one intrested in a slanging match

Ma'asalaama
Reply

Malaikah
03-04-2007, 12:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I agree. I have studied texts of many kinds, and cannot see anything to suggest that the Qur'an stands out to such an extent that it must be the work of a supernatural author. It seems to me to be obviously the work of human hands.
I didn't know you could speak Arabic? Surely, as an English teacher, you of all people would recognise the fact that poetry cannot be translated and still retain its original charm?

(Although the Quran is not strictly poetry, but close to it).
Reply

czgibson
03-04-2007, 05:06 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
I didn't know you could speak Arabic?
I can't, and never claimed that I could.

Surely, as an English teacher, you of all people would recognise the fact that poetry cannot be translated and still retain its original charm?
Of course, and there's a lot more besides charm that is lost in translation when it comes to poetry. In fact, one definition of poetry is 'that which is lost in translation'.

But I question your underlying assumption that it is only through Arabic that one can see the Qur'an as being the word of god. There are many Muslims who cannot read or speak Arabic, yet they still believe the Qur'an is the word of god.

Also, it doesn't matter how good the poetry of the Qur'an is; I find its content abhorrent and irrational in several areas, and even knowing Arabic wouldn't change this.

I find it almost impossible to understand how a human being could write as well as Shakespeare did, but I'm not about to claim that he must have been divinely inspired for that reason.

Is it possible that the Qur'an is so highly regarded in Arab countries because of the apparent widespread ignorance of other cultures and literatures that obtains there? This article quotes some figures which I've seen questioned in some quarters, but if they are accurate, they would partly explain the belief in Arab countries that the Qur'an is so well written it must have been the work of god.

That's the way I see it, at any rate, and this is another section of reasons why I'm not a Muslim.

Peace
Reply

NoName55
03-04-2007, 05:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I can't, and never claimed that I could.



Of course, and there's a lot more besides charm that is lost in translation when it comes to poetry. In fact, one definition of poetry is 'that which is lost in translation'.

But I question your underlying assumption that it is only through Arabic that one can see the Qur'an as being the word of god. There are many Muslims who cannot read or speak Arabic, yet they still believe the Qur'an is the word of god.

Also, it doesn't matter how good the poetry of the Qur'an is; I find its content abhorrent and irrational in several areas, and even knowing Arabic wouldn't change this.

I find it almost impossible to understand how a human being could write as well as Shakespeare did, but I'm not about to claim that he must have been divinely inspired for that reason.

Is it possible that the Qur'an is so highly regarded in Arab countries because of the apparent widespread ignorance of other cultures and literatures that obtains there? This article quotes some figures which I've seen questioned in some quarters, but if they are accurate, they would partly explain the belief in Arab countries that the Qur'an is so well written it must have been the work of god.

That's the way I see it, at any rate, and this is another section of reasons why I'm not a Muslim.

Peace
:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:
Reply

جوري
03-04-2007, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I can't, and never claimed that I could.

Of course, and there's a lot more besides charm that is lost in translation when it comes to poetry. In fact, one definition of poetry is 'that which is lost in translation'.

But I question your underlying assumption that it is only through Arabic that one can see the Qur'an as being the word of god. There are many Muslims who cannot read or speak Arabic, yet they still believe the Qur'an is the word of god.
Indeed that is true!Thomas Aberocrombie. ... Yvonne Riddley ... Dr. Gary Miller and many others... the secret is an open heart and more abstract multi-dimensional thinking!


format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Also, it doesn't matter how good the poetry of the Qur'an is; I find its content abhorrent and irrational in several areas, and even knowing Arabic wouldn't change this.
Like what? pls enlighten us! Do you find it as abhorrent as Saint Saens admitting that he is a pedophile loving the molestation of little north African boys?.. yet having his work celebrated and highly regarded nonetheless for its incandescence .. I hazard say even by people such as your person? What is so detestable in Suite algerienne........

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I find it almost impossible to understand how a human being could write as well as Shakespeare did, but I'm not about to claim that he must have been divinely inspired for that reason..

Shakespeare didn't write anything remotely close to the Quran even given the phenomenal stretch of time between both works!...... a mid summer night's dream can hardly be compared to Suret Al Kahf (18) for example... knowing of events that transpired in other parts of the world in different periods of history can either be made up-- or sent by a divine being... accuracy of the happening is the decider of its divinity! furthermore Shakespeare wasn't an illiterate when he came up with his work... even more amazing than the two... is the fact that the very well educated Shakespeare didn't know that the bee was a female I refer you to his play Henry the Fourth. a Known fact to Muslims some centuries prior on the hands of an illiterate prophet....one of too many coincidental correct findings that make very profound the noble Quran. "In the 16th chapter (Surah an-Nahl 16:68-69) the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food. Now, a person might guess on that, saying, "The bee that you see flying around - it could be male, or it could be female. I think I will guess female." Certainly, he has a one in two chance of being right. So it happens that the Qur'an is right. But it also happens that that was not what most people believed at the time when the Qur'an was revealed. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female bee? Well, it takes a specialist to do that, but it has been discovered that the male bee never leaves his home to gather food. However, in Shakespeare's play, Henry the Fourth, some of the characters discuss bees and mention that the bees are soldiers and have a king. That is what people thought in Shakespeare's time --that the bees that one sees flying around are male bees and that they go home and answer to a king. However, that is not true at all. The fact is that they are females, and they answer to a queen. Yet it took modern scientific investigations in the last 300 years to discover that this is the case" ......

one of many many many examples proving the divinity and excellence in the QUran that isn't found in some other "profound" works of literature!


format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Is it possible that the Qur'an is so highly regarded in Arab countries because of the apparent widespread ignorance of other cultures and literatures that obtains there? This article quotes some figures which I've seen questioned in some quarters, but if they are accurate, they would partly explain the belief in Arab countries that the Qur'an is so well written it must have been the work of god...
You have lived in Arabic countries and ran a random double blinded study on the widespread ignorance? or exactly which source do you rely on when speaking with such authority about Arabs' familiarity or ignorance of other worldly literature? oh yes I forget (this article)

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
That's the way I see it, at any rate, and this is another section of reasons why I'm not a Muslim.

Peace

That is right ... that is the way you see it... and that certainly doesn't loan your argument credence.

peace to you as well!:-\
Reply

cali dude
03-04-2007, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
Ahlan Brother
yes
Where did you copy that quote from because I didn't post that :)?
Reply

KAding
03-04-2007, 06:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
You have lived in Arabic countries and ran a random double blinded study on the widespread ignorance? or exactly which source do you rely on when speaking with such authority about our familiarity or ignorance of other worldly literature? oh yes I forget (this article)
Actually, the article is citing one of the largest studies of its kind in the Arab world, the UN Arab Human Development Report.

It can be found here: http://hdr.undp.org/reports/detail_reports.cfm?view=712
And viewed online here: http://hdr.undp.org/docs/reports/reg...es_2003_en.pdf

The information on the translations in the Arab world can be found on page 66 to 68 of the report. Including a rather revealing bar graph on page 68.
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NoName55
03-04-2007, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude
Where did you copy that quote from because I didn't post that :)?
Ahlan Brother

It was an attempt to sort of quote the gist of that post, also make it into a general Question so none would recgonise that it was you, and seeing from many posts in here people are mostly intrested in arguing (and jump in with provocations), which I wanted avoid.

which looks as me no good at diguising
Ma'asalaama
Reply

جوري
03-04-2007, 06:27 PM
I am sorry I don't follow.. do you not have under-educated people in the Netherlands and the U.S. and all parts of the world? Do you not have bible thumpers and religious fanatics who have no knowledge of what they are saying or repeating? Do you not have alcoholics and women who are battered? I hardly see how this is a reflection on the contents of the Quran or how the "ignorant" the Arabs of other "profound" literatures in which to compare to the Noble Quran. Let's not mix cultural stigma with religion. If anything the Quran speaks very much against ignorance and illiteracy.

وَمِنْهُمْ أُمِّيُّونَ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ الْكِتَابَ إِلاَّ أَمَانِيَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَظُنُّونَ {78}
[Pickthal 2:78] Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess.....



It is understood that not all people have the same accolades.....also in the Quran a mention is made of they who are given knowledge being so very few....Prophet Mohammed PBUH states that we should pursue knowledge even if we have to travel as far as china. From the cradle to the grave. The current cultural climate hardly reflects religious mandates! nor does it reflect the pursuits of early Muslims who followed the book to a T. So let's not mix the two up and call it oh so "abhorrent"

There are multi facets to the Quran... and it can be appreciated by both intellectuals, and the common folk! Each soul held in pledge by its own deeds and its own understanding! More would be expected from those who know more.

I'll go one step further to say that those who don't fully appreciate the contents of the Quran or find it "abhorrent" are the ones who are under-educated and very uni-dimensional--not the other way around!
Reply

AbuAbdallah
03-05-2007, 03:42 AM
Is it possible that the Qur'an is so highly regarded in Arab countries because of the apparent widespread ignorance of other cultures and literatures that obtains there?
Actually, the article is citing one of the largest studies of its kind in the Arab world, the UN Arab Human Development Report.
Let's not forget that the minority of Muslims are Arabs, so how do you account for the non-arab countries?
Reply

justahumane
03-05-2007, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
salaam,

From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?
Holy Quran claims its from ALLAH. Personally I m a big admirer of this book and consider it the best book available on earth. But its failure and unpractical laws stops me to believe its from ALLAH. ALLAH cant give a failed and unpractical law.

I believe that is there is any true religion of ALLAH than its followers have to be the best ppls in the world. But unfortunately muslims (Majority of) have proven that they are not anything near what ALLAH claims about them. (3:110).

These are main reasons that I m still a non muslims. Inspite of having learned about Islam and having very good view about it as a religion.

Thanks.
Reply

جوري
03-05-2007, 03:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Holy Quran claims its from ALLAH. Personally I m a big admirer of this book and consider it the best book available on earth. But its failure and unpractical laws stops me to believe its from ALLAH. ALLAH cant give a failed and unpractical law.

I believe that is there is any true religion of ALLAH than its followers have to be the best ppls in the world. But unfortunately muslims (Majority of) have proven that they are not anything near what ALLAH claims about them. (3:110).

These are main reasons that I m still a non muslims. Inspite of having learned about Islam and having very good view about it as a religion.

Thanks.

Allah has not failed-- people have failed him!
Reply

justahumane
03-05-2007, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Allah has not failed-- people have failed him!
ALLAH can never fail, here I stand with U.

The thing is book which claims from ALLAH has failed inspite of its noble contents. U claim that ppls failed it. Well I doubt that ppls can fail book of ALLAH, here I differ with U.

Thanks.
Reply

queenmuslimah
03-05-2007, 03:23 PM
hello......u kno muslims are human beings....and sure there are some that have done some bad things....but not all of them are the same.......people think that cause one muslim person did something terrible that the rest of them are like that one specific person.....when allah talks about the rightous people in the holy quran he is talkin about those that are good and dont disobey allah......and those who do disobey are among the people of either munafiqs(Hypocrites) or the disbelievers or they just decide to not care........the ones in the quran are the ones that are trying to spread the word the right way...and that allah(swa) loves and i ask allah to make us among them.............did u ever heard the saying 'dont judge by its cover' cause if u did than u wouldnt be judgin islam by people........majority of all mankind are will be in hell.....only few will be in paradise.........like i said before the rightous people mention in the quran are the few in paradise.....and if u want to be among these people u have tp work hard for it....cause the shaytan promised allah that he will mislead mankind cept few and i ask allah to make us the few...inshallah
Reply

queenmuslimah
03-05-2007, 03:27 PM
" dont judge a book by its cover"
Reply

- Qatada -
03-05-2007, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
ALLAH can never fail, here I stand with U.

The thing is book which claims from ALLAH has failed inspite of its noble contents. U claim that ppls failed it. Well I doubt that ppls can fail book of ALLAH, here I differ with U.

Thanks.

I can assure you as a muslim, that there are many muslims in the world who have turned their back on the book of Allaah. That is the reason for our loss and humiliation.


The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said that Allaah will send upon you calamities, his wife Aa'isha (may Allaah be pleased with her) asked - even if their are good people among them? He said yes, if evil becomes widespread.

That's why you see that the enjoining of good and forbidding evil is important in islaam, if this stops - evil becomes widespread, so Allaah sends upon us calamities so we may turn back to Him in our state of weakness. Which is what you see in the world today. Then with patience and perseverance will we see the victory insha'Allaah (God willing.) The same way of the muslims before us.



Regards.
Reply

justahumane
03-05-2007, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by queenmuslimah
hello......u kno muslims are human beings....and sure there are some that have done some bad things....but not all of them are the same.......people think that cause one muslim person did something terrible that the rest of them are like that one specific person.....when allah talks about the rightous people in the holy quran he is talkin about those that are good and dont disobey allah......and those who do disobey are among the people of either munafiqs(Hypocrites) or the disbelievers or they just decide to not care........the ones in the quran are the ones that are trying to spread the word the right way...and that allah(swa) loves and i ask allah to make us among them.............did u ever heard the saying 'dont judge by its cover' cause if u did than u wouldnt be judgin islam by people........majority of all mankind are will be in hell.....only few will be in paradise.........like i said before the rightous people mention in the quran are the few in paradise.....and if u want to be among these people u have tp work hard for it....cause the shaytan promised allah that he will mislead mankind cept few and i ask allah to make us the few...inshallah
I agree that there are very few who have done the bad things among muslims. But I m not talking about that. U know urself sister that very few among muslims really honour the commands of ALLAH. All muslims nations today are live testimony of this. Muslims today prefer to make their own laws inspite of obeying laws of ALLAH. This is the worst thing muslims can do and its no secret that majority of muslims today are involved in this sin. I m very much of ur views that those so called muslims are either disbeliever like me or munafiqeen. But many in this board differ with this.

And I m not judging Islam by behaviour of muslims alone, I have already made it clear that I too believe that Islam is theoritically the best religion among others. What I believe that its not the only true religion as claimed. I dont think any religion is ALLAH's own religion except humanity, and thats the only religion I believe in. I have firm-like-anyone-else-in-the-world belief in one ALLAH, if I land in hell due to my belief than I have no complains.

May ALLAH show us all the right path. AMEEN.

Thanks.
Reply

جوري
03-05-2007, 03:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
ALLAH can never fail, here I stand with U.

The thing is book which claims from ALLAH has failed inspite of its noble contents. U claim that ppls failed it. Well I doubt that ppls can fail book of ALLAH, here I differ with U.

Thanks.
We are getting too philosophical here for my taste!
I can't build an argument on what you conceive to be true or untrue in your mind.
I don't know where you are getting your input or the views that have shaped you.
I believe as Allah said in his book.....


وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَى لِلْبَشَرِ {31}[Pickthal 74:31]
None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.

I really don't think in the scheme of things it matters if we are 2 billion or 10... Only G-D knows whom his true believers are in this world and that is all that matters. Attainment of eternal bliss isn't a class project or a community pursuit.. It is a solo journey between one and the creator.
كُلُّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ رَهِينَةٌ {38}

[Pickthal 74:38] Every soul is a pledge for its own deeds;

And it is true... it is nature of Man-kind and He who created us knows of our nature... and I see it in this verse ever more so

بَلْ يُرِيدُ كُلُّ امْرِئٍ مِّنْهُمْ أَن يُؤْتَى صُحُفًا مُّنَشَّرَةً {52}[Pickthal 74:52]

Nay, but everyone of them desireth that he should be given scrolls (of revelation) spread out!
[/B]
Reply

AbuAbdallah
03-05-2007, 05:05 PM
Holy Quran claims its from ALLAH. Personally I m a big admirer of this book and consider it the best book available on earth. But its failure and unpractical laws stops me to believe its from ALLAH. ALLAH cant give a failed and unpractical law.
Some examples please...
Reply

czgibson
03-05-2007, 09:04 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Indeed that is true!Thomas Aberocrombie. ... Yvonne Riddley ... Dr. Gary Miller and many others... the secret is an open heart and more abstract multi-dimensional thinking!
Why is accepting Islam indicative of "more abstract multi-dimensional thinking"?

Like what? pls enlighten us!
I think I've spent quite a lot of time on the forum trying to explain what aspects of the Qur'an don't appeal to me.

Do you find it as abhorrent as Saint Saens admitting that he is a pedophile loving the molestation of little north African boys?.. yet having his work celebrated and highly regarded nonetheless for its incandescence .. I hazard say even by people such as your person? What is so detestable in Suite algerienne........
No, I'm not a fan of Saint-Saens, and yes I do find it abhorrent. What is the relevance of this little diversion?

Shakespeare didn't write anything remotely close to the Quran even given the phenomenal stretch of time between both works!...... a mid summer night's dream can hardly be compared to Suret Al Kahf (18) for example...
No, it can't. A Midsummer Night's Dream is far from being Shakespeare's best play, but any opinions we'd like to put forward about its quality vis a vis the Qur'an would be subjective anyway.

knowing of events that transpired in other parts of the world in different periods of history can either be made up-- or sent by a divine being...
Or they could just be coincidence.
furthermore Shakespeare wasn't an illiterate when he came up with his work...
I don't claim to know who the author of the Qur'an was - why do you automatically assume I think it's Muhammad (pbuh)?

even more amazing than the two... is the fact that the very well educated Shakespeare didn't know that the bee was a female I refer you to his play Henry the Fourth. a Known fact to Muslims some centuries prior on the hands of an illiterate prophet....
Right - you're just being silly now. First off, this argument is clearly not your own. It's obviously copy-pasted or half-remembered from somewhere else. How do I know this? Well, the first thing would be this:

You haven't read Henry the Fourth. If you had, you'd know that it is in fact two plays.

One other way I know you haven't read the play is because the passage you're referring to contains these words (spoken by the king):
'Tis seldom when the bee doth leave her comb
In the dead carrion. (Henry IV Part II - IV.4.83-4)
So Shakespeare refers to the bee as being female. However, none of this makes any difference, because the truth of the matter is some bees are male and some bees are female. Why are you touting a palpable untruth as something amazingly prescient?

In other words, your argument fails so completely that it would be difficult to imagine how to make it worse.

Oh, hang on a minute. One way to make your argument worse would be if the verses you've talked about in the Qur'an don't actually say what you say they do:

"In the 16th chapter (Surah an-Nahl 16:68-69) the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food.
The Qur'an does not say in these verses that the bee is female, or leaves its house to gather food:

016.068
YUSUFALI: And thy Lord taught the Bee to build its cells in hills, on trees, and in (men's) habitations;
PICKTHAL: And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying: Choose thou habitations in the hills and in the trees and in that which they thatch;
SHAKIR: And your Lord revealed to the bee saying: Make hives in the mountains and in the trees and in what they build:

016.069
YUSUFALI: Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought.
PICKTHAL: Then eat of all fruits, and follow the ways of thy Lord, made smooth (for thee). There cometh forth from their bellies a drink divers of hues, wherein is healing for mankind. Lo! herein is indeed a portent for people who reflect.
SHAKIR: Then eat of all the fruits and walk in the ways of your Lord submissively. There comes forth from within it a beverage of many colours, in which there is healing for men; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who reflect.
Why have you misrepresented you holy book? Are these translations all inaccurate?

one of many many many examples proving the divinity and excellence in the QUran that isn't found in some other "profound" works of literature!
If you think that is amazing, I am genuinely concerned about your level of credulity. Hopefully the points I've made above should make it clear that your position is utterly baseless.

You have lived in Arabic countries and ran a random double blinded study on the widespread ignorance? or exactly which source do you rely on when speaking with such authority about Arabs' familiarity or ignorance of other worldly literature? oh yes I forget (this article)
Also the many Arabic students I've taught English over the years. My experience seems to be backed up by a UN report. Is it fair to say it's possible that I'm right?

That is right ... that is the way you see it... and that certainly doesn't loan your argument credence.
Perhaps. I've admitted that much of what I say is subjective. However, the points above are factual and based on textual evidence.

Peace
Reply

czgibson
03-05-2007, 09:08 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Let's not forget that the minority of Muslims are Arabs, so how do you account for the non-arab countries?
Good point, and you're absolutely right. My point was about the reputation of the Qur'an in Arab countries. I don't claim to be able to explain its reputation among Muslims elsewhere.

Peace
Reply

جوري
03-05-2007, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Why is accepting Islam indicative of "more abstract multi-dimensional thinking"?.
Islam addresses the human condition. In spite of the incessant wave trying to display it in the worst possible light . Those who are not born into the religion yet choose to put aside cultural hostility to understand in full what it is all about. And revert in spite of the odds indicates to me multi-dimensionality.

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I think I've spent quite a lot of time on the forum trying to explain what aspects of the Qur'an don't appeal to me..
In other words you don't want to get into a long discussion. I can respect that! But don't come complaining that we are the ones not wishing to address the topics presented!

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
No, I'm not a fan of Saint-Saens, and yes I do find it abhorrent. What is the relevance of this little diversion?.
I think the relevance is fairly obvious!

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
No, it can't. A Midsummer Night's Dream is far from being Shakespeare's best play, but any opinions we'd like to put forward about its quality vis a vis the Qur'an would be subjective anyway..
I agree ! however, you were the one who brought Shakespeare's work into this discussion!

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Or they could just be coincidence..
There is no such thing as a coincidence especially when there is tons of accurate coincidences involved! it defies the laws of probability!

I
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
don't claim to know who the author of the Qur'an was - why do you automatically assume I think it's Muhammad (pbuh)?.
Who else could it be? and pls. Bring your proof!

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Right - you're just being silly now. First off, this argument is clearly not your own. It's obviously copy-pasted or half-remembered from somewhere else. How do I know this? Well, the first thing would be this:.
This is indeed one of Dr. Gary Millers... But not half remembered!

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
You haven't read Henry the Fourth. If you had, you'd know that it is in fact two plays.
One other way I know you haven't read the play is because the passage you're referring to contains these words (spoken by the king):

So Shakespeare refers to the bee as being female. However, none of this makes any difference, because the truth of the matter is some bees are male and some bees are female. Why are you touting a palpable untruth as something amazingly prescient?.
I read most of Shakespeare's work in middle and high school!... I can tell however that you had to look this little pearl up also for reasons apparent to me.. one being the stretch of time it took you to reply!..... and, The "useful" bees are in fact female!

I
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
n other words, your argument fails so completely that it would be difficult to imagine how to make it worse..
I don't see how it does? but the next paragraph is in fact an indication on how much worst yours can be!

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Oh, hang on a minute. One way to make your argument worse would be if the verses you've talked about in the Qur'an don't actually say what you say they do:
The Qur'an does not say in these verses that the bee is female, or leaves its house to gather food:

Why have you misrepresented you holy book? Are these translations all inaccurate? .
I didn't misrepresent it. Just goes to show you how presumptuous you are if not down right arrogant! So before you get that spring back in your step, let me explain; .... ... In Arabic .. You can for instance use the term "moe'mneen" to denote both faithful men and women... or you can use "mo'emnat" to denote just faithful women... generally the masculine form is used to denote both and it is what is used often in all literature. To be specific as to use the feminine form is to exclude the masculine period!.. in this particular verse G-D says to the bee أَنِ اتَّخِذِي which the feminine form --if you were addressing a male bee it would be "itakhizh" not "itakhizhi" anyone with elementary level knowledge of Arabic would have picked that up.....If that is in fact lost to you in the translation it is because your language is deficient.. not that the Quran is imperfect or that, the translators have robbed you of text. They can only work limited by vocabulary available in the English language! So NO I haven't misrepresented my holy book! but you have misrepresented yourself as a cognoscenti of "poetic" texts!

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
If you think that is amazing, I am genuinely concerned about your level of credulity. Hopefully the points I've made above should make it clear that your position is utterly baseless..
Actually it gives me a good laugh and an accurate assumption of how telescopic the view is from your mind!
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Also the many Arabic students I've taught English over the years. My experience seems to be backed up by a UN report. Is it fair to say it's possible that I'm right?.
Possible-- also possible you just work in a low end institution? where both teacher and student are of a certain sub par standards!

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Perhaps. I've admitted that much of what I say is subjective. However, the points above are factual and based on textual evidence.
And credible you are a data base as wikipedia! We have indeed seen what an accurate/factual interpretation you have of actual Quranic text!
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czgibson
03-05-2007, 09:48 PM
Greetings, Purest Ambrosia,

It's clear that you don't want to think about any of the questions I've raised, or have an intelligent discussion at all. Goodbye.

Peace
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جوري
03-05-2007, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings, Purest Ambrosia,

It's clear that you don't want to think about any of the questions I've raised, or have an intelligent discussion at all. Goodbye.

Peace
Ha? I have answered all you've posted.. up to and including your blatant misuse and misinterpretation of Quranic text.

Best for you to handle areas in which you are well versed! Having a strong grip on the English language doesn't cross over to have a strong grip on Arabic-- let alone Quranic text or for that matter, the politics, economics, social structure ideas and beliefs of other people. Perfect what you know... and believe what you want! But don't spew this barrage of sagacious-sounding observation and comments, of a people, culture and religion of which you clearly have no insight or knowledge!

peace to you as well!
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Pygoscelis
03-05-2007, 10:17 PM
This thread is confusingme now. If you are an atheist why does any of this above matter at all? If you don't believe Gods exist, then the Quran is nothing but folk tales, just like "how the eagle got its wings".

You don't need any reason not to be a muslim. That's the default position. You'd need a reason TO be a muslim, and I certainly don't see any.
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sojourner
03-05-2007, 10:19 PM
36 years of believing that Jesus did die on the cross and rose from the dead 3 days later keeps me from accepting Islam.
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czgibson
03-05-2007, 10:29 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This thread is confusingme now. If you are an atheist why does any of this above matter at all? If you don't believe Gods exist, then the Quran is nothing but folk tales, just like "how the eagle got its wings".
Not quite. The Qur'an is the product of a certain set of historical circumstances, and it continues to influence history, just like any other important text. The idea that it came from god is of course a 'folk tale' to you and me, but I like to explore the reasons why people believe in it, because I find it extraordinary that they do.

You don't need any reason not to be a muslim. That's the default position. You'd need a reason TO be a muslim, and I certainly don't see any.
I agree with you. But people have asked the question, so I'm giving my answers.

Peace
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rebelishaulman
03-05-2007, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Let's not forget that the minority of Muslims are Arabs, so how do you account for the non-arab countries?
The idol worshiping nations spread just as fast outside there enclaves where ever they started.
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جوري
03-06-2007, 01:59 AM
what is so historical about suret Al Kawthar (108), or the Traducer (104), or Al-Gashya (88)? just to name a few?

How can the Quran address both things known and unknown-- in different fields be they "coincidentally" accurate or otherwise?

... how can the Quran with its historical compilation speak of cities just now discovered that weren't even on the map during the time of Christ-- E.x--the newly found city of ERUM sura (89)

what gain is in it for prophet Mohammed (PBUH) to put seemingly ridiculous things unknown to the Arabs of the time in "his" book?
Did he enjoy persecution and sleeping on an empty stomach? being ousted from his home Mecca or being persecuted by his own tribe?--

should your ad hominem prove that someone (a brilliant human) whispered it in the messenger's ear-- Why isn't this other someone known to us with his amazing grip on Arabic-- masterful enough that no two suras are identical either stylistically or textually?

I can say that with conviction by the way because I do speak and write Arabic fluently-- I can assert to that fact that it isn't something you can just pick up on, reading a transliteration of the noble quran and we have demonstrated earlier your ignorance in that field!

Some people might find the reasons you don't believe as absurd and extraordinary as yours of why they believe...

Either way it is utterly inconsequential to me what you do or don't do on your private time. I haven't started this topic and wouldn't have replied, if I didn't find your comments earlier both absurd and grossly inaccurate!

To me a plethora of ill thought statements based on a shady 3rd rate web research, personal and psychological experience, are not an adequate explanation for this "Historical circumstance" that is so appreciated by ignorant Arabs to whom the very first verse of the very first sura mandated

اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ {1}

[Pickthal 96:1] Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,!--
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AbuAbdallah
03-06-2007, 03:03 AM
The idol worshiping nations spread just as fast outside there enclaves where ever they started.
?????What does that have to do with it spreading in Arab countries because they were ignorant????
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جوري
03-06-2007, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This thread is confusingme now. If you are an atheist why does any of this above matter at all? If you don't believe Gods exist, then the Quran is nothing but folk tales, just like "how the eagle got its wings".

You don't need any reason not to be a muslim. That's the default position. You'd need a reason TO be a muslim, and I certainly don't see any.
That is very illogical approach!

MAP=CO X TPR
might not mean anything to you, and I'll go out on a limb and venture into saying you probably don't even know what it stands for! but in that formula is a delicate balance that keep you homeostatically stable. Should any of the above variables cease to function properly, it will lead to your eventual demise! Your unawareness of it, isn't an indication of its unimportance, or its non-existence, rather an indication of your ignorance! You take for granted that things work the way they do... you don't reflect on how or why? ( & I don't just mean in the human body, I mean the entire universe).
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Pygoscelis
03-06-2007, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
That is very illogical approach!

MAP=CO X TPR
might not mean anything to you, and I'll go out on a limb and venture into saying you probably don't even know what it stands for! but in that formula is a delicate balance that keep you homeostatically stable. Should any of the above variables cease to function properly, it will lead to your eventual demise! Your unawareness of it, isn't an indication of its unimportance, or its non-existence, rather an indication of your ignorance! You take for granted that things work the way they do... you don't reflect on how or why? ( & I don't just mean in the human body, I mean the entire universe).
I don't see how what you have posted here relates to what you quoted and were responding to.

I wrote that the default position is to be non-muslim and that you should require evidence to believe mulsim claims to be true and thus become a muslim. How does this in anyway relate to homeostatic equations?

And you are right tha I take for granted that things work the way they do, and sometimes I do reflect on how and why. But it isn't something to obsess over. We can research these things at our liesure, some of the answers may lead to useful technology. And I am comfortable admitting ignorance in the meantime.
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جوري
03-06-2007, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I don't see how what you have posted here relates to what you quoted and were responding to..
what I wrote is a response to your and I quote "then the Quran is nothing but folk tales, just like "how the eagle got its wings"."
and not to previous posts. I think that should be fairly obvious?

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I wrote that the default position is to be non-muslim and that you should require evidence to believe mulsim claims to be true and thus become a muslim. How does this in anyway relate to homeostatic equations?.
And I actually disagree with that sentiment. The default in fact is to believe in a higher power, we are all born on fitrah and born very needy (How does a baby know to seek milk when its higher reticular function isn't yet fully developed?) it is innate to want to worship just like it is innate to want to eat. ... being an Atheist is NOT the norm! You are a minority who gave some thought to religion, and convinced yourselves that it is fairy tale... be that as it may You actually have to give some thought to not believing which in and of itself a belief "that G-D doesn't exist" but you can't prove it any more than those who believe can prove to you that he does!
& lastly, being a Muslim fulfils spiritual Homeostasis.. we aren't composed of just tissue.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
And you are right tha I take for granted that things work the way they do, and sometimes I do reflect on how and why. But it isn't something to obsess over. We can research these things at our liesure, some of the answers may lead to useful technology. And I am comfortable admitting ignorance in the meantime.
Good to know! :threadclo :threadclo :threadclo
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Trumble
03-06-2007, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
) it is innate to want to worship just like it is innate to want to eat
I have no innate "want to worship" and neither does anybody else who doesn't 'believe' already. It's purely cultural. If you are brought up in an environment of worshippers you might develop a tendency to worship but if you brought up among atheists the thought would never occur to you. That can change either way depending on your own experiences, of course but in no way is 'belief in a higher power' some sort of default position.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-06-2007, 07:33 PM
What about the first community ever to exist? You think they jus came up with it out of nowhere? You would prolly say something like, they were lonely and needed somethin to believe in i suppose?
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جوري
03-06-2007, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I have no innate "want to worship" and neither does anybody else who doesn't 'believe' already. It's purely cultural. If you are brought up in an environment of worshippers you might develop a tendency to worship but if you brought up among atheists the thought would never occur to you. That can change either way depending on your own experiences, of course but in no way is 'belief in a higher power' some sort of default position.
Worship doesn't have to be that of a higher power. People use substitutes and yes it is a need! it can be worship of money, worship of worldly goods, worship of fame, worship of power, worship of serenity... People will find a substitute... Just look around you... People will make up their own purpose. Everyone needs to understand and find a reason for their existence!
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czgibson
03-06-2007, 07:42 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
What about the first community ever to exist? You think they jus came up with it out of nowhere? You would prolly say something like, they were lonely and needed somethin to believe in i suppose?
Every primitive community in the ancient past had its own god(s). Pre-scientific people needed to find some way of explaining the mysteries of the world they found themselves in. They also needed a moral authority to help keep their society well-behaved so that it didn't tear itself apart.

What is innate in human beings is not the need to believe in god, but two other needs: to explain things to themselves and to survive.

Peace
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-06-2007, 07:47 PM
So its not more just with thiests, its also with atheists, is it not? Dont u think atheism has its own set of beliefs like an organized religion. regardless of what the beliefs are, u still have them. And its also looking down on people who are part of a religion. At least with some atheists who have dogmas of their own.
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Grace Seeker
03-06-2007, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
salaam,

From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?

Because I believe that the Bible is true when it teaches about Jesus sacrficial death as an atonement for sin and his resurrection from the grave as a real event, an event means by which God has cancelled the power of sin and death in the lives of all who believe in Jesus. I understand that if I were to accept Islam I would have to deny these events as being true and I am unwilling to do so.
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czgibson
03-06-2007, 08:03 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
So its not more just with thiests, its also with atheists, is it not?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Dont u think atheism has its own set of beliefs like an organized religion. regardless of what the beliefs are, u still have them.
Perhaps, but it doesn't have nearly as many beliefs as most religions. Atheism can be summed up as 'the belief that there is no god'. That's pretty much it. No rituals, no prayers, no dietary laws, no dogmas etc. Atheists share that belief, but individually they may believe all kinds of different things.

And its also looking down on people who are part of a religion.
Being an atheist necessarily entails believing that people who are adherents of theistic religions are wrong. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to be rude to people who believe in god, though.

Peace
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-06-2007, 08:10 PM
But as its claimed that religion is the cause of all world problems. If everybody was atheist, do u really think the world would be a better place?

Being an atheist necessarily entails believing that people who are adherents of theistic religions are wrong. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to be rude to people who believe in god, though.
Heres where i would like to make a point. As u have said that you believe any theist is wrong just like we think atheists r not right. But that doesnt mean ushould be rude regardless of ones owns beliefs. There are always people who go to the extreme, so its silly to blame the religion, when in entirety its the persons own fault for not understanding. What about the Soviet Union? They were not theists, they were atheists with their own set of ideologies. So can I blame atheism for all wars? I think it was the Soviet Union. Dont quite remember.

Oh cruddd, I went off topic lol. My bad.

Peace
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czgibson
03-06-2007, 08:30 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
But as its claimed that religion is the cause of all world problems. If everybody was atheist, do u really think the world would be a better place?
I don't claim religion is the cause of all the world's problems. I think stupidity is the cause of many of them, though. I also believe that some people's brain power is actually stunted by certain types of religious belief. So there is a link, in my view, but it's a fairly indirect one.

If everybody was atheist, would the world be a better place? Perhaps, but I really couldn't say. I assume there would still be plenty of morons about to mess things up for everybody else!

Heres where i would like to make a point. As u have said that you believe any theist is wrong just like we think atheists r not right. But that doesnt mean ushould be rude regardless of ones owns beliefs.
I agree.

There are always people who go to the extreme, so its silly to blame the religion, when in entirety its the persons own fault for not understanding.
What about if people are members of an extreme religion that tells them to do things the rest of us think are wrong (e.g. Scientology, which discourages some of its adherents from seeing their unbelieving families)?
What about the Soviet Union? They were not theists, they were atheists with their own set of ideologies. So can I blame atheism for all wars?
Well, I don't think the Soviet Union caused "all wars", so no. Its rulers certainly made life very unpleasant for most of its population, and participated in the Cold War against the West. The Soviet Union was guided by a perverted, authoritarian form of Marxism which was, admittedly, an atheist ideology in part, but it's not remotely representative of atheism in general.

Peace
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-06-2007, 09:00 PM
I dont believe scientology to be a religion, its nonsense to me. I can accept even Hinduism, Buddhism to be a better religion than that. Im not trying to offend any1 btw.
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Pygoscelis
03-07-2007, 11:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
What about the first community ever to exist? You think they jus came up with it out of nowhere? You would prolly say something like, they were lonely and needed somethin to believe in i suppose?
Mostly it exists because it fulfils many human emotional needs. I'll list a few.

1. It answeres the unanswerable. Many people don't like to not know things.

2. It gives people a sense of control of their lives (pray for good harvest). This is how a lot of supersticions get started.

3. It gives the downtrodden hope of a better life to come.

4. It gives victims a sense of eternal justice. It is hard for many to accept that bad people will sometimes get away with doing bad things. It is much more comfortable to believe that they will be caught and punished by the devine.

5. It programs people to behave as the ruling elite want them to. Social control is a very big force behind religion.

6. It gives people a sense of identity and communion. People like to belong to groups. This is another group to belong to. And it usually comes with a set of outgroups to scorn and look down on.

7. It gives people pride via associaton. Much like how people do this with spots teams. The team they cheer for wins (or "will" win) and they feel like they have acomplished something great (even though they weren't even in the stadium).

8. It justifies the otherwise unjustifiable. Religion has been used to sell just about every kind of attrocity you could think of.

There's just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more.

Note that though all of these explain the popularity of religions none of them give any credence to any specific religion being truth.
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Pygoscelis
03-07-2007, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
So its not more just with thiests, its also with atheists, is it not? Dont u think atheism has its own set of beliefs like an organized religion. regardless of what the beliefs are, u still have them. And its also looking down on people who are part of a religion. At least with some atheists who have dogmas of their own.
There are no atheist beliefs. Not a single universal belief between all atheists. Not even all atheists believe there is no God. Some just lack the belief that there is one. Subtle but important difference that forms the divide between "strong" and "weak" atheism.

Many atheists are humanists, but certainly not all are. Some are Satanist. Some are into eastern philosophies such as Taoism. Many many atheists are simply atheists with no adopted philosophy of life, prefering to develop their own.
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Pygoscelis
03-07-2007, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Being an atheist necessarily entails believing that people who are adherents of theistic religions are wrong. That doesn't give anyone an excuse to be rude to people who believe in god, though.
That depends on the theology and behaviour of the theist in question. If the religion is causing them to behave badly, I think it is perfectly appropriate to respond accordingly.

I would never burst into a mosque or church where people are worshiping in peace.

But I quite enjoy toying with Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons who keep coming to my door and ringing my bell (even though I've told them before not to return). I treat them like telemarketers. I have fun with them.
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Pygoscelis
03-07-2007, 11:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
But as its claimed that religion is the cause of all world problems. If everybody was atheist, do u really think the world would be a better place?
Religion is not the cause of all the world's problems. The root cause is often something else and then religionis brought in as a tool to justify and amplify the problem. If religion didn't exist, people would just find some other tool to use in this way, like nationalism, etc.

What about the Soviet Union? They were not theists, they were atheists with their own set of ideologies.
Quite right. Stalinism wasn't based on religion at all. Good example. Note though that it wasn't based on atheism either (nor was it based o communism, though it claimed to be). It was based on that set of ideologies you refered to.

So can I blame atheism for all wars?
I don't think it has happened yet that people have gone to war in the name of and for the cause of atheism. There simply aren't enough atheists to make that happen, and even amongst atheists there are few who wish the eradication of all religion, and even fewer who would consider it something to risk life and limb to eradicate.
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Grace Seeker
03-07-2007, 07:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Mostly it exists because it fulfils many human emotional needs. I'll list a few.

1. It answeres the unanswerable. Many people don't like to not know things.

2. It gives people a sense of control of their lives (pray for good harvest). This is how a lot of supersticions get started.

3. It gives the downtrodden hope of a better life to come.

4. It gives victims a sense of eternal justice. It is hard for many to accept that bad people will sometimes get away with doing bad things. It is much more comfortable to believe that they will be caught and punished by the devine.

5. It programs people to behave as the ruling elite want them to. Social control is a very big force behind religion.

6. It gives people a sense of identity and communion. People like to belong to groups. This is another group to belong to. And it usually comes with a set of outgroups to scorn and look down on.

7. It gives people pride via associaton. Much like how people do this with spots teams. The team they cheer for wins (or "will" win) and they feel like they have acomplished something great (even though they weren't even in the stadium).

8. It justifies the otherwise unjustifiable. Religion has been used to sell just about every kind of attrocity you could think of.

There's just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more.

Note that though all of these explain the popularity of religions none of them give any credence to any specific religion being truth.
Of course, all of these things could be true about many various religions, and probably are about many, but it wouldn't preclude the possibility that there is still a religion that is also a valid expression of the nature and character of God.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-07-2007, 09:08 PM
Dont u think theres a reason why people feel the need for it? Why they feel they need something to look upto? Its kinda silly to say humans made it up. Its a natural feeling. Every human has it, whether they surpress the feeling or not.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 09:30 PM
Dont u think theres a reason why people feel the need for it? Why they feel they need something to look upto?
Pygoscelis gave a good list.
Its kinda silly to say humans made it up.
Why, we make up silly stuff all the time.
Its a natural feeling. Every human has it, whether they surpress the feeling or not.
Every Human? I think not. I think it is a natural feeling and most people have it. That has nothing to do with whether or not it is correct.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-07-2007, 09:32 PM
Did u not believe in one sometime in your life?
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Did u not believe in one sometime in your life?
Is that a question to me? I'm an agnostic that thinks god probably exists.
But:
That has nothing to do with whether or not it is correct.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-07-2007, 09:39 PM
^Lol, yea it was to you.
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Akil
03-07-2007, 09:43 PM
I have pondered this in depth because I would say twice; I was close to taking shahada. But I did not for a few specific reasons.

Firstly, I believe all theistic religion are more or less close minded

Second, I believe a lot of what is seen as Islam today is bidah (innovation) based on certain (mostly Arabic) cultural practices.

Thirdly there are even some things in the Holy Quran and a lot of things in so-called authentic hadith I disagree with, which is how we come back to the whole close minded deal.

I believe in the tawhid of God. Furthermore I don’t believe God is not a personified being, more like the Tao of the Chinese or the Brahman of the Hindi (both religions which contained gods and could be seem as polytheistic, but in both religions these gods were allusions of the truth whereas the Tao/Brahman/Godhead is the creator, sustainer and truth itself.)

I personally believe that each religion, way of life (deen), or spiritual path has some wisdom and a lot of baggage and I believe by studying all religions I can learn from them all and avoid all or most of the baggage.
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sojourner
36 years of believing that Jesus did die on the cross and rose from the dead 3 days later keeps me from accepting Islam.

Hey.


But if you truely believe that Muhammad peace be upon him is God's final messenger, and you know that the Qur'an is truely the Criterion - then you should step forward towards Allaah and He will come to you at speed. :)


The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

(1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.

It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah).
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barney
03-26-2007, 02:13 AM
I'm not a Muslim because I beleive the universe was created by a entity which was all powerful and unfathamoble.

I beleive Humans in their growing development accross tens of thousands of years developed a need to understand their purpose of existance and developed religions to provide answers to this. These Religions were in my opinion not the word of "God", but a social cohersive programme that was neccessery for mankind to progress.

Progression continued until the need for religion as a ethical, moral and civilising framework has been replaced by a combination of Laws, science, sociology and knowlage. A unkowable deiety and the carrot & stick of formal religion is, certainly in the west with christianity, losing its appeal. This has left the texts of ages past, pretty defunct & the tipping point for me where religion was a benifit to mankind instead of a devisive and stifling function has long since past.

Might be wrong. I Dunno. And nobody else does either! :blind:
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Grace Seeker
03-27-2007, 04:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
I'm not a Muslim because I beleive the universe was created by a entity which was all powerful and unfathamoble.

I beleive Humans in their growing development accross tens of thousands of years developed a need to understand their purpose of existance and developed religions to provide answers to this. These Religions were in my opinion not the word of "God", but a social cohersive programme that was neccessery for mankind to progress.

Progression continued until the need for religion as a ethical, moral and civilising framework has been replaced by a combination of Laws, science, sociology and knowlage. A unkowable deiety and the carrot & stick of formal religion is, certainly in the west with christianity, losing its appeal. This has left the texts of ages past, pretty defunct & the tipping point for me where religion was a benifit to mankind instead of a devisive and stifling function has long since past.

Might be wrong. I Dunno. And nobody else does either! :blind:
Having read this and a couple of your other posts on atheism/agnosticism, on what basis do you use the label Christian with reference to yourself? It seems as if that might not fit too well either?
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barney
03-27-2007, 04:46 AM
I hit the wrong button when making my profile!

:D

I'm Monothistic. I beleive in a Creator, all powerful. i beleive that this creator no longer interacts with us.

I beleive all formal religions are created by man.
i'm far from being a christian, and Indeed am a member of a Christian Forum where I discuss their beleifs, but from my own standpoint.

Sorry about the confusion. is it possible to change my description in my title? And if so would that make me a convert to agnostic!
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Grace Seeker
03-27-2007, 04:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
I hit the wrong button when making my profile!

:D

I'm Monothistic. I beleive in a Creator, all powerful. i beleive that this creator no longer interacts with us.

I beleive all formal religions are created by man.
i'm far from being a christian, and Indeed am a member of a Christian Forum where I discuss their beleifs, but from my own standpoint.

Sorry about the confusion. is it possible to change my description in my title? And if so would that make me a convert to agnostic!
Yes, it is possible to change your profile. Go to the top and click on "User CP". Then under that click on "Edit Profile". You can change anything you want in there. My church will be glad to know that I helped someone convert from Christianity to agnosticism. :rollseyes
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barney
03-27-2007, 05:06 AM
Gratz 2 U and thx for the tip.:D
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snakelegs
03-27-2007, 05:22 AM
another agnostic is born! soon we will be the fastest growing non-religion. :D
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Panther
03-27-2007, 12:22 PM
I am not a Muslim because I am an Atheist. Simple, really. XD

I am a non-religious Atheist because I do not feel the need to adopt a set of rules or laws in order to live my life morally.

I have my own set of morals comprised of firstly the influence of my parents and society, and secondly of my own judgement and conscious decision.
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Pygoscelis
03-27-2007, 02:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
I'm Monothistic. I beleive in a Creator, all powerful. i beleive that this creator no longer interacts with us.
I believe that makes you a Deist.
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barney
03-27-2007, 05:05 PM
Yay! I have a label!

Actually, I'm not too bothered what to call myself. (theres probably a name for people who arn't bothered too. :D
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AvarAllahNoor
03-27-2007, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Yay! I have a label!

Actually, I'm not too bothered what to call myself. (theres probably a name for people who arn't bothered too. :D
Yes ''Am I Bovvered'':D
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Grace Seeker
03-27-2007, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panther
I am not a Muslim because I am an Atheist. Simple, really. XD

I am a non-religious Atheist because I do not feel the need to adopt a set of rules or laws in order to live my life morally.

I have my own set of morals comprised of firstly the influence of my parents and society, and secondly of my own judgement and conscious decision.
Panther, I'm supposing that someone could have a set of morals comprised of firstly the influence of their parents and their perceptions of society, and secondly of their own judgments and conscious desicions that were completely antithetical to yours. Would you see that person as living his/herr life morally?

If yes, can you help me to understand what you mean by moral?

If no, on what basis would you continue to claim that your life was being lived morally and that his/her life was not?
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England
03-27-2007, 07:17 PM
For the people that are saying there is no afterlife you're wrong. Spirtualism exists. We are an energy and once we die our spirit hatches out of this egg, which we call our physical body. Energy does not die. Energy is converted to different forms but it doesn't die. The same goes with OUR energy... We will not die, our spirit moves on into "another world."
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Skavau
03-27-2007, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
For the people that are saying there is no afterlife you're wrong. Spirtualism exists. We are an energy and once we die our spirit hatches out of this egg, which we call our physical body. Energy does not die. Energy is converted to different forms but it doesn't die. The same goes with OUR energy... We will not die, our spirit moves on into "another world."
....Proof? That's a swooping statement to make.
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England
03-27-2007, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
....Proof? That's a swooping statement to make.
I was once like you, a sceptic. Then I went to a spiritualist church and was given a reading from a medium that passed messages from some family members that died. They were accurate in everything they said. One that springs to mind was that my grandad found a cribbage board the previous week which he hadn't seen for 20 odd years. We rang him and asked him, it was true. He didn't like it as it scared him a bit. It must have been about 1 in a billion chance.

There is scientific proof that energy doesn't die, it converts to a different form. We are an energy. If you want proof of an afterlife then go to a spiritualist church and get a personal reading. It's completely free. They make no profit from this at all... Do not go for the readings that you "pay" for as they are scam.
Visit some spiritualist churches and I'm sure you will turn from a sceptic, just like I was, into a believer.
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Pygoscelis
03-27-2007, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Energy does not die. Energy is converted to different forms but it doesn't die.
So maybe when you die your energy will be converted into heat and be used to warm sombody elses toes. Conversion of energy doesn't imply preserving of sentience.
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England
03-27-2007, 10:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
So maybe when you die your energy will be converted into heat and be used to warm sombody elses toes. Conversion of energy doesn't imply preserving of sentience.
Are you another sceptic lol? Do as I said in the previous post. Start going to the spiritualist church, get a personal reading which is completely free and then come back :) I promise you 100% and I will guarantee you that you will lose the scepticism of spirtuality. I used to laugh aswell as my family at mediums. I used to think "weirdos" and "spiritualism? What an utter load of...." but no way. Only the mediums you "PAY" for are crap.

Good luck :D
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Muezzin
03-27-2007, 10:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
So maybe when you die your energy will be converted into heat and be used to warm sombody elses toes. Conversion of energy doesn't imply preserving of sentience.
Then how do you explain this?



'Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter'

:p
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lavikor201
03-27-2007, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
So maybe when you die your energy will be converted into heat and be used to warm sombody elses toes. Conversion of energy doesn't imply preserving of sentience.
You just used the word "maybe"? And I thought athiests were out for "facts", not things like "maybe their is a G-d".
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Skavau
03-27-2007, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
You just used the word "maybe"? And I thought athiests were out for "facts", not things like "maybe their is a G-d".
Since when was that the definition of an Atheist?
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lavikor201
03-27-2007, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Since when was that the definition of an Atheist?
Since atheism I believe rejects the existance of G-d because it cannot be proved (or is that agnostics?), yet he is trying to make points on "maybes" and things that cannot be 100% proven.
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Skavau
03-27-2007, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Since atheism I believe rejects the existance of G-d because it cannot be proved (or is that agnostics?), yet he is trying to make points on "maybes" and things that cannot be 100% proven.
Being an Atheist does not require someone to automatically take a direct standpoint on EVERY issue.

All Atheism is the assertion that there is no God/s. That is it.
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barney
03-28-2007, 03:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Since atheism I believe rejects the existance of G-d because it cannot be proved (or is that agnostics?), yet he is trying to make points on "maybes" and things that cannot be 100% proven.
It's Agnostic dude!
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Panther
03-28-2007, 04:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Panther, I'm supposing that someone could have a set of morals comprised of firstly the influence of their parents and their perceptions of society, and secondly of their own judgments and conscious desicions that were completely antithetical to yours. Would you see that person as living his/herr life morally?

If yes, can you help me to understand what you mean by moral?

If no, on what basis would you continue to claim that your life was being lived morally and that his/her life was not?
Happy to answer your questions, my friend. :)

From dictionary.com:
"mor·al
1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes."

As I have stated, my 'morality' has been mostly determined by my environment, as is the case for the majority of human beings. The standards of one's society are most prevalent in dictating moral values, that is - what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'.

For example, let us take a sensitive subject, such as... Hmm. Homosexual marriage.
In Canada and the Netherlands, homosexual marriage is completely legal and even encouraged. In countries such as Egypt, Russia and America, however, it's a differant matter. The reasons these countries frown upon homosexual marriage are mostly due to religious 'morality'. Here in the UK where I live, it's an uneasy in-between - gay couples can have civil partnerships, but not marriage.(segregation is not equality, but that's just my opinion.)

In Egypt, homosexuality is believed to be "wrong". Men are even imprisoned for participating in consensual acts of homosexuality. In Canada, however, it's a-okay. What is considered "right" and what is considered "wrong" differs greatly from community to community. It also differs on an individual level, as one person may look at homosexual marriage as a good thing, another person from the very same community may consider it a heinous crime.

Therefore, we come to the conclusion that what is "moral" is subjective. Acknowledging that morality is subjective, if I were to come across someone who had the exact opposite moral values as compared to me, I would consider thier way of life as "immoral", as it would conflict with my idea of what is right and what is wrong. That's not to say that I am right and they are wrong or vice versa - much like the topic of the existance of deities and gods, morality is a subject that canot be laid down in facts.

I, nor any one else, cannot say that I am living my life by absolute, inarguable , superior morality. But I can say that I am living my life in a suitable manner, according to the moral standards of my community.

I can, however, say that I am also living my life by a code that is a recurring theme throughout the majority of mankind's communities within the world.
The Wiccans say it best, I believe:

"An it harm none, do as thou wilt."
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Pygoscelis
03-28-2007, 05:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Then how do you explain this?

http://img.search.com/thumb/e/e5/Spi...px-Spirits.jpg

'Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter'

:p
Well the middle one is Fozzie Bear gone wonky.
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Pygoscelis
03-28-2007, 05:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
You just used the word "maybe"? And I thought athiests were out for "facts", not things like "maybe their is a G-d".
Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in Gods. There is nothing more to it. Atheists need not be "out for facts" at all. The little boy raised in secular society who has never heard of religion is an atheist. Yet he may very well believe in Santa and unicorns because he thinks they are cool.
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Panther
03-28-2007, 05:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in Gods. There is nothing more to it. Atheists need not be "out for facts" at all. The little boy raised in secular society who has never heard of religion is an atheist. Yet he may very well believe in Santa and unicorns because he thinks they are cool.
I disagree. A "lack of belief in god(s)" is either agnoticism or agnostic-atheism. Athiesm is the belief that there is/are no god(s).
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Pygoscelis
03-28-2007, 06:38 PM
It is a rather confused term.

There are a few who do believe it means what you think it means, including some atheists such as yourself. Most atheists I've met though use it to mean a lack of belief. The root of the word works better this way, for it to mean not (a) believer in gods (theist).

But this is just semantics. The thread seems to have completely unwound now :)
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Grace Seeker
03-28-2007, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panther
Happy to answer your questions, my friend. :)

From dictionary.com:
"mor·al
1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes."

As I have stated, my 'morality' has been mostly determined by my environment, as is the case for the majority of human beings. The standards of one's society are most prevalent in dictating moral values, that is - what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'.

For example, let us take a sensitive subject, such as... Hmm. Homosexual marriage.
In Canada and the Netherlands, homosexual marriage is completely legal and even encouraged. In countries such as Egypt, Russia and America, however, it's a differant matter. The reasons these countries frown upon homosexual marriage are mostly due to religious 'morality'. Here in the UK where I live, it's an uneasy in-between - gay couples can have civil partnerships, but not marriage.(segregation is not equality, but that's just my opinion.)

In Egypt, homosexuality is believed to be "wrong". Men are even imprisoned for participating in consensual acts of homosexuality. In Canada, however, it's a-okay. What is considered "right" and what is considered "wrong" differs greatly from community to community. It also differs on an individual level, as one person may look at homosexual marriage as a good thing, another person from the very same community may consider it a heinous crime.

Therefore, we come to the conclusion that what is "moral" is subjective. Acknowledging that morality is subjective, if I were to come across someone who had the exact opposite moral values as compared to me, I would consider thier way of life as "immoral", as it would conflict with my idea of what is right and what is wrong. That's not to say that I am right and they are wrong or vice versa - much like the topic of the existance of deities and gods, morality is a subject that canot be laid down in facts.

I, nor any one else, cannot say that I am living my life by absolute, inarguable , superior morality. But I can say that I am living my life in a suitable manner, according to the moral standards of my community.

I can, however, say that I am also living my life by a code that is a recurring theme throughout the majority of mankind's communities within the world.
The Wiccans say it best, I believe:

"An it harm none, do as thou wilt."
So. My great-great-great-grandfather who owned my great-great-grandmother on a cotton plantation in southern Tennesse was living his life morally because he was living his life in a suitable manner, according to the moral standards of his community. Further, he too was also living his life by a code that was a recurring theme throughout the majority of mankind's communities in the world -- at least at that time, and is more common today than people like to admit.
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barney
03-28-2007, 09:49 PM
And morals will continue to change as the centuries pass by.

If we carry on in the west as we are we will soon be sueing ourselves over defamation of character, the plaintiff being our own guilt and the procecutor our secularism.

At least Islam hasnt got to handle that kind of nonsense.
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Grace Seeker
03-28-2007, 11:51 PM
See, that makes all morality relativistic. I happen to think that while many morals are relative, that there are indeed some moral absolutes. And other primary principles that are put into practice in their relative contexts, but still based on guiding principles that don't change.

Further in a relativistic world, if my morals don't match your morals then there is little to appeal to in order to resolve differences. "I'm right, you're wrong" Let the guy with the biggest stick or most friends decide. That hardly seems like genuine morality. Though I fear this is what we practice in our secular societies.
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Grace Seeker
03-28-2007, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
(which brings up the concept of Unjustness...who decides that?) Puritan zelots killing "witches" in England in 1670 for showing their ankles?
Was that just? No It was a slaughter of innocent women and intellectuals by a over zealous Christian faith.
Talibanis, flinging stones at adulterers till they were ripped apart? Same for the Incas of South America, Christians and I beleive that the followers of Japanese God-Emperor Tojo in 1936-45, (the worlds most recent effective deity) did fairly well with following a system of " If Your Not With Us Your Against Us"..And Georgey Bush knows how to say that.
This quote was taken from a different thread, but so applicable here. These were perfectly moral behaviors if one accepts the relativistic view of morality espoused earlier in this thread. So, it morality unjust?

If yes, then is it better to strive for morality or justice?

If no, then is better to strive for morality or justice?

Or perhaps, they were neither moral nor just? But then, we have to allow that morality may also not be so relativistic.
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Muezzin
03-29-2007, 12:03 AM
Justice is balance, and yet inevitably it springs from morality, which is itself relative. Human society is based on such constructs.

I believe that in many cases, rather than an imperfect system, the fault lies with imperfect components (i.e. people) populating that system. Deeply imperfect systems tend to be overthrown or collapse.
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Panther
03-29-2007, 04:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So. My great-great-great-grandfather who owned my great-great-grandmother on a cotton plantation in southern Tennesse was living his life morally because he was living his life in a suitable manner, according to the moral standards of his community. Further, he too was also living his life by a code that was a recurring theme throughout the majority of mankind's communities in the world -- at least at that time, and is more common today than people like to admit.
Yep. Hate to say it, but although you were likely being sarcastic, you're right.

As man became more civilised, we acknowledged the inherant 'wrong' in slavery and denounced it. Therefore, today we see it as a terrible thing, as we should.

Barney is right in saying that 'morality' is forever changing.

I believe you are also right in saying there should be some moral "absolutes", one of which I've already mentioned.(Do what you want, provided you're not hurting anyone.)

However, these absolutes should be determined on a humanitarian level, and without the influence of any religion.
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Grace Seeker
03-29-2007, 06:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panther
I believe you are also right in saying there should be some moral "absolutes", one of which I've already mentioned.(Do what you want, provided you're not hurting anyone.)
I think I could live with this one right now. However, that still hasn't solved the problem of my great-great-great grandfather. You see he was doing what he wanted, and he did not believe he was hurting anyone. See, my great-great grandmother wasn't really a person in his eyes; so no harm, no foul.

So, with Barney being right about morality always changing, does one need some sort of knowledge of the future to know whether a choice taken today will still be morally acceptable when we have to live with its consequences down the road? Is it moral for pregnant mothers to drink, given the results that it might have on their baby. Yet we don't really know what the results will be. It could be nothing. It could be terrible. How about the way we produce and consume power? I wonder how moral it actually is. I don't see any harm being done, but others say there is. I don't think that religion answers these questions any better than non-religion does. What religion does is encourage us to ask the question. I would suggest that where religion does not temper social policy that no one cares to ask those questions. I cite the difference between the "christian" USA and the "atheistic" Soviet Bloc with respect to taking care of the environment. And today I sense business becoming global, less influenced by any religious ethic (only the pursuit of $$) and again there seems to be less care for what happens to others as a result.


[And I recognize that Barney is right that the interpretations and pplications of morality do constantly change. I am presently experiencing that in my own church: some feel that the kids selling stuff to raise money for a trip is perfectly appropriate, and others that it is violating the standards Jesus set when he cleansed the temple. You can bet that the differences are generational. But the answer to that comes out of wrestling to understand the context of the situation in which the moral ethic is to be applied so that one can determine appropriateness of applying it and the best way to do so if it is determined to indeed apply.]
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Pygoscelis
03-29-2007, 06:35 AM
I'm sure there are many things we do regularly today, without any moral qualms, that a hundred years from now will be seen as just as horrible as slavery etc. I have no real problem with that. It is just society evolving.
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Grace Seeker
03-29-2007, 06:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I'm sure there are many things we do regularly today, without any moral qualms, that a hundred years from now will be seen as just as horrible as slavery etc. I have no real problem with that. It is just society evolving.
Yes, given that there really is no right or wrong, but todays right or wrong.

But imagine another world in another universe. A universe in which there really did exist some omniscient being that could tell the creatures of that universe what would be the best choice in the long run so as to avoiding hurt and pain, both for themselves and for others. Then, whether one worshipped that omniscient being or not, would it not be wise to at least listen and seek the omniscient being for guidance?

While you conceive of that as pure fiction, some of us believe it to be reality. And if it is real, does it not make sense for something akin to religion to have developed in response to the teachings of that being. You see it as rigid. But they are rigid, as the Muslims on this board like to say, becaues Allah knows best.
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Keltoi
03-29-2007, 02:29 PM
You also have to consider that there were people opposed to slavery while it was still legal and popular.
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cali dude
03-29-2007, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
salaam,

From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?
I seriously believe that what I believe in is better than what I have learned from some of the Muslim people, even here on this site.

So I think we should play a game. We should ask the Muslims why they agree with Islam says other than they think it came from God. Then we will see if non-Muslims have a reason to disagree with it or even have a better way to live their lives...
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cali dude
03-29-2007, 02:42 PM
Well folks, as far as morality goes, no, it does not change.

If lying was wrong then, it will always be wrong for the same reason...

But at the same time though, parts of religions have been proven wrong as well. We can not say that all religions are the absolute truth :)
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جوري
03-29-2007, 03:11 PM
lol-- I actually rather find the changing morality to suit the times a bit amusing... the limits will keep being pushed until G-D knows what will be allowed next?.. first homosexuality.. then pedophilia.. then incest... In fact there was a brother/sister team in Germany who had several kids with one another... they jailed the brother for a few year... the sister went with another man.. then they were appealing the case... stating "who are we really to define what a family unit should be" ---
Morals which were mandated by religion are there to keep us from living like animals... They are a constant not an evolving art project....

peace!
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cali dude
03-29-2007, 03:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
first homosexuality.. then pedophilia.. then incest...
Homosexuality: Do you actually think someone should be imprisoned for being homosexual? It would make sense only if favored imprisoning people for pre-marital sex.

pedophilia: Of course, these people deserve one of the worse punishment in the world. But then how is this any different than marrying a child?

incest: Of course this is wrong but it isn't much more wrong than marrying first cousin... :)
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جوري
03-29-2007, 03:35 PM
1-I think the punishment should fit the crime-- if they are caught in a lewd act in public the punishment should be as mandated by religious law... the same way traitors of the united states have death penalty imposed to what other people think is a rather trivial offense!

2-Depends what you mean by marrying a child... the age of consent has been and should be at the start of menarche...and is actually still to modern day-- the choice lies ultimately with she who is to be betrothed...http://womhist.binghamton.edu/teacher/aoc.htm here is an article about the age of consent just in the last two centuries in the civilized U.S-- ,"Age of consent" referred to the legal age at which a girl could consent to sexual relations. Men who engaged in sexual relations with girls who had not reached the age of consent could be criminally prosecuted. American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven---an ever changing thing it seems as recent as 1845 to 1920... amusing.....


I fail to see how marriage and incest equate, but then I havn't seen much of an argument worth while from you since you have come on board...

peace!
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mkh4JC
03-29-2007, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
salaam,

From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?
Well, I would say that one of my primary reasons for not accepting Islam is that I don't believe an almighty God would begin to reveal himself to man in the Old Testament and allow parts of it to become corrupted, as if he doesn't have the power to stop it. I will also point out the nature of salvation in both Islam and Christianity as two differing extremes based on what I have heard coming from people who have converted to Islam itself and based on what I know from my own experiences as a Christian and the people I know to be Christian.

Islam stresses that we are simply to do our best, using our own inherent will power, to avoid sinning, whereas in Christianity upon accepting Jesus Christ he gives you power over sin and your previous lifestyle, so you can live without practicing the vices that you were bound withl. So in a way Islam doesn't really address the people who are bound with vices like homosexuality, lesbianism, pedophillia, because there is no provision provided for these kinds of people, because you are told to simply do your best.
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Pygoscelis
03-29-2007, 04:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
You also have to consider that there were people opposed to slavery while it was still legal and popular.
And, you also have to consider that religious folk now scorned (like our overused slavery example) were once supported and justified via religion. It isn't nearly as rigid as some may believe. It changes over the ages too.
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Grace Seeker
03-29-2007, 06:10 PM
I interrupt this dialog to happily note that we have actually been having a serious discussion on a sensitive area for a couple of pages without anyone making any inflammatory remarks. Good Job!!

I now return you to the discussion currently in progress.
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Keltoi
03-29-2007, 09:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I interrupt this dialog to happily note that we have actually been having a serious discussion on a sensitive area for a couple of pages without anyone making any inflammatory remarks. Good Job!!

I now return you to the discussion currently in progress.
You just jinxed it.
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Pygoscelis
03-29-2007, 09:46 PM
Yup. The thread is dead now. May as well close it.
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Cachao
03-29-2007, 10:33 PM
I refuse to belong to ANY religion that has grown through violent conquest and forced conversion. Now this is not meant as a criticism of Islam alone. It has been the way for millennia.
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Panther
03-30-2007, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
first homosexuality.. then pedophilia.. then incest...
Hey now! How do you equate homosexuality with pedophilia and incest?
I find that highly offensive, and dearly hope I'm misunderstanding you.
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جوري
03-30-2007, 02:20 AM
You are not misunderstanding... I find it offensive to see men or women kissing and or other acts in public... they can do what they want in their private time I don't wish to see-- I don't endorse it and I don't find it socially or morally acceptable...

peace!
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wilberhum
03-30-2007, 02:34 AM
I find lots of things offensive. That's my problem.
I know I'm offensive to some people. That's there problem.
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Panther
03-30-2007, 02:39 AM
wilberhum put it best.

Acts of pedophilia and incest in public I can understand being offensive. XD

But two concenting(non-related XD) adults have every right to express thier love for one another wherever they so choose, within the law of where they're doing it.(I.E, not, you know... Getting it on on a park bench in the middle of London. lol)

Double standards aren't cool, kids. If hetero people can smooch in public, two guys or two girls should be able to, too.

But anyway. Going off topic here, where were we?
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جوري
03-30-2007, 02:48 AM
I don't advocate a public display of affection no matter from whom... but I will not be ok with homosexuality just because it is an in thing or is politically correct at the moment... it was an act of sexual deviance up to 1974 in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders )... with heavy lobbying it no longer is... but any good psychiatrist will tell you that is an act of sexual deviance no different than the others of which you gasp...

peace!
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Muslim Woman
03-30-2007, 02:50 AM


Salaam/peace ,


format_quote Originally Posted by Cachao
I refuse to belong to ANY religion that has grown through violent conquest and forced conversion. Now this is not meant as a criticism of Islam alone. It has been the way for millennia.

-----read the holy book , pl. Is there any verse that says to convert/revert people by force ? Don't judge a religion by its some bad followers .


If a thief steals ur car/money/bag/ precious things from u , u may hate him but will u stop using car / things ?

There is a proverb that says get mad at thief who stole ur plate & start eating rice on the floor/earth.......yak horrible translation .....meaning is u can't be that angry to others & do something that harms u. So , read the holy scripture for ur own sake :statisfie


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Panther
03-30-2007, 03:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't advocate a public display of affection no matter from whom... but I will not be ok with homosexuality just because it is an in thing or is politically correct at the moment... it was an act of sexual deviance up to 1974 in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders )... with heavy lobbying it no longer is... but any good psychiatrist will tell you that is an act of sexual deviance no different than the others of which you gasp...

peace!
I question your judgement of a "good psychiatrist."

Perhaps you mean a Muslim psychiatrist? lol.

Ah, well. If it's "sexual deviance", then hurray for sexual deviance!
Reply

جوري
03-30-2007, 03:39 AM
I usually state what I mean clearly... and I don't jump into suppositions, reactions and defensiveness...
A good psychiatrist is one who is excellent at his craft and doesn't yield to pressure and heavy lobbying....
No one is persecuting you for your life style... but no one is applauding it either... your judgement doesn't lie with what people or society allow or disallow....

in certain aspects there is a definitive line of right and wrong -- which is not subject to change to fit the tides...

peace!
Reply

Panther
03-30-2007, 03:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I usually state what I mean clearly... and I don't jump into suppositions, reactions and defensiveness...
Touche, although I'm sure you can understand my defensiveness.
A good psychiatrist is one who is excellent at his craft and doesn't yield to pressure and heavy lobbying....
I agree. However, what do you mean by "excellant at his craft"? The majority of psychiatrist these days acknowledge that homosexuality is not a disease, mental disorder, etc, because scientific study has proven that it is not. It is merely a matter of preferance, whether it be voluntary preferance or not.
No one is persecuting you for your life style... but no one is applauding it either... your judgement doesn't lie with what people or society allow or disallow....
I'm going to have to disagree there. When you state that "you are not ok with homosexuality", that's discrimination. Is not deeming a person's lifestyle as "sexual deviance" a form of persecution?

in certain aspects there is a definitive line of right and wrong -- which is not subject to change to fit the tides...
Back before it was legalized, people said the same of inter-racial marriages. They said that such unions "bred only evil". I'm sure you don't agree with that, just as I am confident that thirty years from now when homosexual marriage is mosly legalized, people will look back at the fuss over homosexual marriage and think "Wow, how primitive that whole conflict was."

Again, this ties into the "morality" issue. Our upbringings and environments have caused our opinions on the matter to differ. Your point of "deinitive right and wrong" is like Grace Seeker's point of "moral absolutes", and I agree with both of you, to a certain extent.

Of course, some religious people would disagree with me when I say that one of those absolutes should be that religion has no play in the law of any nation, and should not be able to dictate what is legal and what is not.

What a nation deems collectively as "right" and "wrong" should be decided by the courts, according to human rights laws and regardless of a nation's religious sway and prejudices. This is the beauty of a secular society.
Reply

جوري
03-30-2007, 04:08 AM
I can't read all that.. though I can respect you taking the time...
go to (Uptodate.com) and find me the medical research that deems homosexuality normal...or why it would be any more normal than necrophilia, or Frotterism or exhibitionism? they are all in a sense deviation from the norm... some people seek treatment.. some continue to "get off" that way... if all the necrophiliacs got together and advocated and lobbied as heavily as the homosexuals I am sure they too would make it out of DSM-IV... and it would be left to the human rights advocates etc... but still it would be an act of sexual deviance to many ... it feels like the world has gone on reverse...

so pls don't equate an interracial marriage to homosexuality... we are talking apples and oranges... My prejudices aren't swayed by religion.. I know many who have no religious affiliations whatsoever who find the act abhorrent ...

peace!
Reply

wilberhum
03-30-2007, 04:20 AM
Homosexuality is not normal, but it is a natural occurring condition.
It is no more abnormal than being left handed. In fact homosexuality occurs more frequently than being left handed.
I have known a number of homosexuals, none of them made that choice, it was just something that happened to them.
Reply

جوري
03-30-2007, 04:41 AM
be that as it may... many feel driven to do things that are clearly wrong... Kleptomania is classified as Recurrent failure to resist impulses to steal objects that are not needed for personal use or for their monetary value. also can be found in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition... does it make it ok to steal? these people feel these very strong urges, they "can't help it"... I have no doubt that it fulfils some need in them... some seek treatment... some don't in the case of some kelptos they remain so until they get caught and put into prison...

should some humanitarians decide that this small group of people are normal within their own rights and should go on and steal? should they lobby heavily and take themselves out of DSM-IV? ... to me, the role of religion in general is to enable people to refrain from the urges of the lower self... to teach self discipline, to elevate man/woman kind to something refined above these urges-- and sometimes unfortunately people prefer to go with what feels natural to them over, and some go on to fight against it.

Do I feel sudden bursts of hate for such folks? No I can't say that I do-- however, I believe what they are doing is wrong!.. if they choose to continue on doing it... they should do it on their own private time... I will not be accepting of it -- anymore than I'll be of a guy who likes to rub against women on a bus... anymore than Carl Tanzler who developed an obsession with his dead patient and dug up her corpse kept adding wax to her face as she decayed beside him in bed! To me they are all acts of sexual deviations falling on different places of the spectrum...
peace and good night
Reply

Pygoscelis
03-30-2007, 07:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
be that as it may... many feel driven to do things that are clearly wrong... Kleptomania is classified as Recurrent failure to resist impulses to steal objects that are not needed for personal use or for their monetary value. also can be found in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition... does it make it ok to steal?
Theft is destructive behaviour and is infringing on the rights of another. Homosexuality isn't. For something to be a disorder rather than a quirk or an oddity I think it has to be destructive. Homosexuality simply isn't. It hurts nobody.

Do I feel sudden bursts of hate for such folks? No I can't say that I do-- however, I believe what they are doing is wrong!.. if they choose to continue on doing it... they should do it on their own private time... I will not be accepting of it
I feel exactly the same way about religion.

And that gets us back on topic :D
Reply

Panther
03-30-2007, 07:41 AM
Well done, Pygoscelis. XD

I didn't intend to derail the topic.
Anyway, yes. Reasons you're not a Muslim, go!
Reply

جوري
03-30-2007, 02:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Theft is destructive behaviour and is infringing on the rights of another. Homosexuality isn't. For something to be a disorder rather than a quirk or an oddity I think it has to be destructive. Homosexuality simply isn't. It hurts nobody.

Somethings don't have to be hurtful in a very obvious way to be destructive...

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I feel exactly the same way about religion.

:D
No one is forcing you to feel otherwise... but I must ask.. why are you here?
Reply

Idris
03-30-2007, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Theft is destructive behaviour and is infringing on the rights of another. Homosexuality isn't. For something to be a disorder rather than a quirk or an oddity I think it has to be destructive. Homosexuality simply isn't. It hurts nobody.



I feel exactly the same way about religion.

And that gets us back on topic :D
If you feel that way about "religion" then why are you on this forum?

I really think Pygoscelis love us just hiding it lol
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-30-2007, 03:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panther
Back before it was legalized, people said the same of inter-racial marriages. They said that such unions "bred only evil". I'm sure you don't agree with that, just as I am confident that thirty years from now when homosexual marriage is mosly legalized, people will look back at the fuss over homosexual marriage and think "Wow, how primitive that whole conflict was."

Again, this ties into the "morality" issue. Our upbringings and environments have caused our opinions on the matter to differ. Your point of "deinitive right and wrong" is like Grace Seeker's point of "moral absolutes", and I agree with both of you, to a certain extent.

Of course, some religious people would disagree with me when I say that one of those absolutes should be that religion has no play in the law of any nation, and should not be able to dictate what is legal and what is not.

What a nation deems collectively as "right" and "wrong" should be decided by the courts, according to human rights laws and regardless of a nation's religious sway and prejudices. This is the beauty of a secular society.
In the USA a tomato is "legally" a vegetable, because the Department of Agriculture has written that into the legal code of the land.
But laws on paper don't change biology. The tomato is still a fruit, and any good botanist knows that.
What people thought 30 years ago or will think 30 years from now, doesn't change it from fruit to vegetable either. Make your own application if you can.

(And now I have us off topic again.:sorry: )
Reply

cali dude
03-30-2007, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
1-I think the punishment should fit the crime-- if they are caught in a lewd act in public the punishment should be as mandated by religious law... the same way traitors of the united states have death penalty imposed to what other people think is a rather trivial offense!

2-Depends what you mean by marrying a child... the age of consent has been and should be at the start of menarche...and is actually still to modern day-- the choice lies ultimately with she who is to be betrothed...http://womhist.binghamton.edu/teacher/aoc.htm here is an article about the age of consent just in the last two centuries in the civilized U.S-- ,"Age of consent" referred to the legal age at which a girl could consent to sexual relations. Men who engaged in sexual relations with girls who had not reached the age of consent could be criminally prosecuted. American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven---an ever changing thing it seems as recent as 1845 to 1920... amusing.....


I fail to see how marriage and incest equate, but then I havn't seen much of an argument worth while from you since you have come on board...

peace!
It seems like you are saying that marriage justifies everything. So you seem to think that if you marry a child and have sex with her, it's OK but if you have sex with a child without getting married, it's not OK. Married or not, having sex with a child is not OK at all. Marriage is simply a social agreement. What's wrong if people can live happily even without getting married?

Incest is having sexual relationship with closely related person. If you marry someone closely related person, aren't you going to have sexual relationship with them? Then how is it any different than incest?

Whatever homosexuals do is their life. To me, people kissing in public is offensive period, homosexual or heterosexual. So does that mean I have right to prosecute them?
Reply

جوري
03-30-2007, 03:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude
It seems like you are saying that marriage justifies everything. ?
I can't speak for everyone's marriage!

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude
So you seem to think that if you marry a child and have sex with her, it's OK but if you have sex with a child without getting married, it's not OK. Married or not, having sex with a child is not OK at all.
"thinking" for other people seems to be a favorite of yours!.. have you been watching too many of Holmes' episodes and it is all elementary to you? I don't think it is ok to marry a child.. I think it is ok to marry someone based on the age of consent (in many cultures at the start of menarche) and we have demonstrated that just last century in Delaware the age of consent was 7.. less than what it actually was 15 centuries ago!.. campaigns to raise the age of consent is a very modern concept-- schooling and life expectancy has changed tremendously over the centuries.. yet still in modern day Africa and many other parts of the developing world people's life expectancy is 44 years of age... Do you suggest that they wait until they are 32 and financially ready to be wed? Lastly, do you read the links provided, or are you that challenged?

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude
I notice you are big on
Marriage is simply a social agreement. What's wrong if people can live happily even without getting married?
You should direct this question at one of your divine Gurus--


format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude
Incest is having sexual relationship with closely related person. If you marry someone closely related person, aren't you going to have sexual relationship with them? Then how is it any different than incest??
incest is interrelations sexual relationship between brothers and sisters, fathers and daughters, uncles and nieces... Many parts of the world up to and including Idaho people are allowed to marry their cousins... they are not a first blood relative!... It isn't something I'd personally recommend, however it doesn't fit the definition of incest... if it were it would be illegal in many states modern civilized day... and it isn't!

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude
Whatever homosexuals do is their life. To me, people kissing in public is offensive period, homosexual or heterosexual. So does that mean I have right to prosecute them?

I don't really care what is acceptable or isn't acceptable to you. I have read enough of your thread to see how twisted and fickle! Your posts are always acquiescing to the tide, to me that isn't religion it is hypocrisy
Now are you persecuting them? or do you just enjoy a good rhetorical questions?
--This is the last I wish to extend myself to you or this topic in general!

Have a grand ole' day

peace!
Reply

Woodrow
03-30-2007, 04:10 PM
This forum is mixed and we also have very young members. The questions and answers and the like are no longer appropriate. In addition some people are using this as an outlet to slander Islam and Prophet Muhammad. This is not acceptable and I see no way to end it except by banning people or closing the thread. At the moment I will settle for closing the thread.
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