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SilentObserver
03-01-2007, 07:34 AM
Does God change his mind? Wouldn't he know what he wanted from the start?
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snakelegs
03-01-2007, 07:44 AM
do you think that the answer is knowable?
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SilentObserver
03-01-2007, 07:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
do you think that the answer is knowable?
Personally , no.

I should have phrased it differently. "Do muslims here think that God changes his mind?"
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snakelegs
03-01-2007, 07:52 AM
ok.
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Kyubi
03-01-2007, 07:55 AM
No creature is to worship anything other then Allah.

From what I have read he certaintly does, take one example: When God commanded Ibilis (Shaitan-Satan) to Prostrate towards Adam God broke the divine law of history's self proclaimed stewart.
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------
03-01-2007, 08:17 AM
:sl:

When God commanded Ibilis (Shaitan-Satan) to Prostrate towards Adam...
...God knew that Iblis was not going to prostrate! He is Omnipotent!

:w:
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Kyubi
03-01-2007, 08:29 AM
And the Angels?

I’m sorry to point this out but Omnipotent means to be all-powerful. Omniscience is what means to be all knowing.

In any case God has still committed a sin by giving the command itself sealed the sin. Whether Shaitan is sinful enough to follow God into sin by breaking Gods law is the real question.
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------
03-01-2007, 08:36 AM
Omniscience
Thats what i meant...its 8.35 in the morning, giv me sum credit!! :rollseyes

How can God commit a sin?! Now ur just totallly killing da whole situation!

:w:
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Kyubi
03-01-2007, 09:03 AM
How can God commit a sin?! Now ur just totallly killing da whole situation!
Its called a paradox :giggling:
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Snowflake
03-01-2007, 09:18 AM
Personally I think it's pointless debating with disbelievers and those who think they have the right to question God's will. It's futile, because only Allah guides who He wills.

I am satisfied that Allah will answer all your questions on the Day and answer them in a way that will be remembered for eternity. Muslims are being dragged into these pointless discussions rather than gaining more knowledge about their deen.

Muslim brothers and sisters, on-going debates only lead to blasphemous comments from non believers. Who needs it? Remember, we cannot change anyone's thinking until Allah wills it. And when He wills it, He opens the doors for them.

Let's spend our time and energy increasing our knowledge and helping our brothers and sisters who are needy or lost. There's a difference between giving dawah and trying to refute something that someone so adamantly believes. I hope you all agree with me - salam.
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Kyubi
03-01-2007, 09:36 AM
trying to refute something that someone so adamantly believes.
Thats my line.

Personally I think it's pointless debating with disbelievers and those who think they have the right to question God's will. It's futile, because only Allah guides who He wills.
No debate worth its subject is pointless, I think debating with believers goes nowhere unless there's a monopoly for your conversion but I still debate and still communicate that’s what keeps me from ignorance. But you can have it your way as you just entered the debate whether you realized it or not.

As for the debate at hand, its still unanswered if I am wrong then my argument is wrong. Yet however it's been completely avoided and dodged. Why not answer the question? Are you afraid you might come to a realization? I know what its like to be stubborn try as we like doctrine binds us to strongly.
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Muezzin
03-01-2007, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Does God change his mind? Wouldn't he know what he wanted from the start?
By asking the second question, you have assumed the answer to the first question is positive. This entire process demonstrates that you are attributing human imperfections to something that theists believe is perfect.

But because humans are inherently imperfect, we may only know perfection in the frame of imperfection. I mean, for instance, I might get 100% in an exam, but that's not necessarily a perfectly written exam. What I'm trying to say is, God is simply other. If you believe in God, you know that when it comes to God's will, you know nothing.

And for the record, I don't believe that God changes his mind, despite how things may appear to us. We make conclusions based on what we can see and what we can record, but we can never possibly see and record everything. We create our own contexts based on what we experience. Those who believe in God believe that God knows the one true context since God is omniscient.
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-01-2007, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Does God change his mind? Wouldn't he know what he wanted from the start?
does it befit a God to be indecisive?
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-01-2007, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Personally , no.

I should have phrased it differently. "Do muslims here think that God changes his mind?"
oh i see, no i dont think he does :). How can the most wise change his mind?
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- Qatada -
03-01-2007, 07:56 PM
God only does what befits His Majesty. :) So whatever happens, God already knows it will happen. And the argument about satan is that God gave him the freedom of choice, and because satan chose to disobey God - then that lead to his own destruction and loss. Whoever follows his way will see similar consequences. We seek refuge in Allaah from falling into that. ameen.
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M.I.A.
03-01-2007, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Does God change his mind? Wouldn't he know what he wanted from the start?
yes god knew what he wanted from the start.

we change our minds god does not.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kyubi
No creature is to worship anything other then Allah.

From what I have read he certaintly does, take one example: When God commanded Ibilis (Shaitan-Satan) to Prostrate towards Adam God broke the divine law of history's self proclaimed stewart.
man was created superior to the angels and jinn, angles have no free will.. jinns will be judged the same as men and both have free will. so god did not break his own law by commanding them to prostrate befor Adam, it was only to aknowledge the superiority of man.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kyubi
And the Angels?

I’m sorry to point this out but Omnipotent means to be all-powerful. Omniscience is what means to be all knowing.

In any case God has still committed a sin by giving the command itself sealed the sin. Whether Shaitan is sinful enough to follow God into sin by breaking Gods law is the real question.
id say god posseses both attributes you have mentioned and what better measure to test man against than subbourness and vanity.. attributes id say fit ibliss perfectly.

in the end it realy does come down to good vs evil.. and evil is weak in the face of good. good can come from all people, gods will will be done.. no matter if we believe in him or not, we will stay on the earth for a time appointed and then death comes but as an excuse. this may come across as a bit of a nieve view of the world but it helps me maintain humility in front of people that in honesty cannot stand me or my faith.
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chris4336
03-01-2007, 08:42 PM
Regarding God changing his mind...I have been wondering this for awhile: What about the story about how when the Prophet Mohamed took his journey into heaven, and Allah told him to have people pray 50 times a day, but then Moses told him that would be too much, so he went back and asked for 5 and Allah. Is that an authentic Hadith? Doesn't it seem a bit odd that people could "bargin" with Allah?
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Talha777
03-01-2007, 08:44 PM


Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Allah Tala does NOT change His mind. He has not fully disclosed His plan to us, thus it seems to us that He has changed His mind, when, for example, He abrogates an law and reveals a new one. Allah has His own timetable which we have no knowledge of.

According to Bible, Abraham (alaihi salam) repeatedly supplicated to God to reduce the number for the condition that Sodom would not be destroyed. First it was fifty, than it went down to ten. I wander what the Christian interpretation of this is.
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iqbal_soofi
03-01-2007, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Allah Tala does NOT change His mind. He has not fully disclosed His plan to us, thus it seems to us that He has changed His mind, when, for example, He abrogates an law and reveals a new one. Allah has His own timetable which we have no knowledge of.

According to Bible, Abraham (alaihi salam) repeatedly supplicated to God to reduce the number for the condition that Sodom would not be destroyed. First it was fifty, than it went down to ten. I wander what the Christian interpretation of this is.
But we believe that Allah has fully disclosed His plans in Quran. We also believe that He doesn't change His rules. However, some basic rules were changed in Quran itself. There're some difference in rules in Madni Ahyas (Ahyas that were revealed in madina) than the Macci Ahyas.
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thirdwatch512
03-01-2007, 09:08 PM
no God doesn't change his mind.. he's perfect!!

that's coming from a christian perspective though.. i believe that muslims do believe he changes his mind, since the qu'ran talks about abrogation. but i'm no muslim so i have no credibility when it comes to islam lol
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- Qatada -
03-01-2007, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
But we believe that Allah has fully disclosed His plans in Quran. We also believe that He doesn't change His rules. However, some basic rules were changed in Quran itself. There're some difference in rules in Madni Ahyas (Ahyas that were revealed in madina) than the Macci Ahyas.

Maybe you could bring proof for that? :) Allaah hasn't explained to us how long we all will live. Nor has he told us everything about paradise or hellfire. So no - Allaah hasn't given us knowledge of everything. :)
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Talha777
03-01-2007, 09:19 PM
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

no God doesn't change his mind.. he's perfect!!

that's coming from a christian perspective though.. i believe that muslims do believe he changes his mind, since the qu'ran talks about abrogation. but i'm no muslim so i have no credibility when it comes to islam lol
Muslims believe that Allah doesn't change His mind. Abrogation of a commandment is not changing your mind if you intended it in the first place. For example, if I have an intention of going to sleep for a few hours, and after my decided duration I wake up, is this changing my mind? The answer is no, it cannot be defined as changing one's mind if it was intended from the beginning. Also, abrogation is clearly mentioned in your Bible as well:

The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."
Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
(Genesis 18:22-33)

So in this one example alone, we find the God of the Bible abrogating His decision a total of six times! My advice to Christians is don't throw stones at other people's houses when your own houses are made of glass.
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Skavau
03-01-2007, 10:03 PM
Allah Tala does NOT change His mind. He has not fully disclosed His plan to us, thus it seems to us that He has changed His mind, when, for example, He abrogates an law and reveals a new one. Allah has His own timetable which we have no knowledge of.
But then, isn't this deception, or misleading by nature?

The 'Plan' being spoke of too implies a degree of free-will being sacrificed in favour of what Allah has planned. If there is a 'Plan', then certain characteristics have to be fulfilled in order for it to be achieve - or Allah, being all-powerful will have to implement himself. So it is either a set pre-planned timeline which will impact upon free-will either indirectly (should it interfere with the plan) or it will completely eradicate free-will because the conditions have already been set with the plan.

If Allah implements it himself, he would do it out of necessity because there would be something preventing the 'Plan' from revealing itself. This implies that Allah is not all-powerrful. If Allah doesn't do it out of necessity - but merely as a part of the plan, then the above assumption that everything is pre-planned to a degree exists.

Just a thought. :)
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Talha777
03-01-2007, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
But then, isn't this deception, or misleading by nature?

The 'Plan' being spoke of too implies a degree of free-will being sacrificed in favour of what Allah has planned. If there is a 'Plan', then certain characteristics have to be fulfilled in order for it to be achieve - or Allah, being all-powerful will have to implement himself. So it is either a set pre-planned timeline which will impact upon free-will either indirectly (should it interfere with the plan) or it will completely eradicate free-will because the conditions have already been set with the plan.

If Allah implements it himself, he would do it out of necessity because there would be something preventing the 'Plan' from revealing itself. This implies that Allah is not all-powerrful. If Allah doesn't do it out of necessity - but merely as a part of the plan, then the above assumption that everything is pre-planned to a degree exists.
Just a thought
The Plan of Allah in no way eradicates our free will. Our free will is limited to that which we have control over, such as our deeds and our beliefs. Obviously, the will of Allah is supreme and governs the universe, not ours. So there are some circumstances which we are in which are a result of Allah's doing and not ours, but Allah judges us in such a way that we are not subjected to any unfairness. Allah has full knowledge of the effects of creating us in our environment and how our existence on this Earth will play out. He has designed His Plan in accordance with that knowledge. It is also true that His Plan is as He desires despite the fact that He has purposely given us limited free will. Nothing is impossible for Allah, even if it may seem illogical for us.

I don't know what you mean by Allah "implementing" His plan Himself. If you mean by that Allah directly fulfilling His plan rather indirectly through our actions that is a fallacious question. Allah does, however, directly intervene in our affairs, by, for example, answering our prayers and sending revelation to His Prophets. This is not out of necessity for fulfilling the plan. Rather it is a sign for us of His power to strengthen our own faith.
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NoName55
03-01-2007, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
no God doesn't change his mind.. he's perfect!!

that's coming from a christian perspective
though.. i believe that muslims do believe he changes his mind, since the qu'ran talks about abrogation. but i'm no muslim so i have no credibility when it comes to islam lol
so, you believe in and follow Tanakh as Jews believe in it?

according to who is this
first there was 1 then it was 2 then 3 gods then 3in1
first no eating swine or blood or strangled animal then there was free for all, in The Old Testament G-d said not to eat swine but he seems to have told you: its ok, I'v changed my mind (perhaps on request of Paul and Romans)
first their was circumcision there was not
first Shabbat was seventh day of week then it is first
first he said don't make idols to worship, now he is allowing it

would you like me to go on and on?

peace
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Umar001
03-01-2007, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kyubi
No creature is to worship anything other then Allah.

From what I have read he certaintly does, take one example: When God commanded Ibilis (Shaitan-Satan) to Prostrate towards Adam God broke the divine law of history's self proclaimed stewart.
Hi Kyubi,

You have again shown your lack of being able to wiegh situations.

Does postration = worship? Did God tell the angels to worship Adam? Please show if that is the case.

Rather, they were told to what? Postrate, now does postration mean that it is worship, it seems like you think it does, but I disagree with you there, postration does not necessitate worship.

There is postration of respect, and postration of worship. God told them to postrate in the form of respect.

But then again I doubt you will WANT to understand.

Regards Eesa.
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NoName55
03-01-2007, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
But then, isn't this deception, or misleading by nature?

The 'Plan' being spoke of too implies a degree of free-will being sacrificed in favour of what Allah has planned. If there is a 'Plan', then certain characteristics have to be fulfilled in order for it to be achieve - or Allah, being all-powerful will have to implement himself. So it is either a set pre-planned timeline which will impact upon free-will either indirectly (should it interfere with the plan) or it will completely eradicate free-will because the conditions have already been set with the plan.

If Allah implements it himself, he would do it out of necessity because there would be something preventing the 'Plan' from revealing itself. This implies that Allah is not all-powerrful. If Allah doesn't do it out of necessity - but merely as a part of the plan, then the above assumption that everything is pre-planned to a degree exists.

Just a thought. :)
why would you need to worry or argue about some thing you claim not to believe that even exists?
me is confuzid
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NoName55
03-01-2007, 10:59 PM
when a barrister bows to a judge at crown court is he worshiping him?
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Muezzin
03-01-2007, 11:04 PM
This prostration stuff doesn't really answer the question posed in the first post.
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Skavau
03-01-2007, 11:12 PM
why would you need to worry or argue about some thing you claim not to believe that even exists?
Because I find the topic interesting? I don't need to say anything, you're right - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be sceptical.

The Plan of Allah in no way eradicates our free will. Our free will is limited to that which we have control over, such as our deeds and our beliefs.
That makes sense.

So there are some circumstances which we are in which are a result of Allah's doing and not ours, but Allah judges us in such a way that we are not subjected to any unfairness. Allah has full knowledge of the effects of creating us in our environment and how our existence on this Earth will play out.
So Allah is able to see the end result of this, if I can term it like this - madness? He understood the direct impact of everything upon creation? If that is indeed the case, then everything is already known. This (in my view) undermines free-will.

He has designed His Plan in accordance with that knowledge. It is also true that His Plan is as He desires despite the fact that He has purposely given us limited free will. Nothing is impossible for Allah, even if it may seem illogical for us.
So the plan will proceed as originally concieved no matter what? This is also combined with Allah's infinite knowledge of everything makes for a script based world.

I don't know what you mean by Allah "implementing" His plan Himself. If you mean by that Allah directly fulfilling His plan rather indirectly through our actions that is a fallacious question.
tbh, I was just rambling to a degree. What I meant is that if Allah has to intervene out of necessity (free-will interrupts the plan) to ensure the plan has to return back on track. Now you've claimed that it is going to happen anyway then that doesn't mean anything.

Many thanks, Skavau
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moujahid
03-02-2007, 12:07 AM
:sl:

You are going round in circles Skavau. It is good that you ponder over this and may ALLAH reward your efforts in trying to know the truth. ALLAH is not constrained by time and He is free of all faults. If you read the Qur'an, you will come across verses talking about the day of reckoning as if it has happened in the past. For example, ALLAH says "remember" the day when you will be awaken from the long sleep(in the grave), "remember" the punishment of the grave. So it is clear that for ALLAH, the future is already known. The destiny was written long before we were even created. You can go ahead and change your mind a million times before you do something, ALLAH will know what will you end up doing in the end. So ALLAH does not change His mind, nor He is confused.
It is also recommended that we do not think about this too much because we simply can't. And its not called giving up its called common sense. We are limited and our thinking is limited. By saying that ALLAH does change His mind, you are inferring that ALLAH wasn't sure what He was doing in the first place (Na'udhubillah), which is a blasphemy.
In conclusion, Allah has no need to change His mind, because He is all perfect. His initial decisions were perfect. and also He has power over everything.

:w:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-02-2007, 12:18 AM
Lets say if you see a person in trouble. Would u help the person or walk away? Either way, whatever step you take, Allah knows the outcomes of both decisions. That is the All-Knowing God.
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Talha777
03-02-2007, 12:19 AM
Subhan Allah, beautiful answer by brother moujahid.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
So Allah is able to see the end result of this, if I can term it like this - madness? He understood the direct impact of everything upon creation? If that is indeed the case, then everything is already known. This (in my view) undermines free-will.
I don't see how Allah having knowledge of everything, including the past, present, and future, is undermining our free will. Knowledge is one thing, interfering with our free will is quite another.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
tbh, I was just rambling to a degree. What I meant is that if Allah has to intervene out of necessity (free-will interrupts the plan) to ensure the plan has to return back on track. Now you've claimed that it is going to happen anyway then that doesn't mean anything.
Everything that happens is in accord with the plan of Allah, there are no surprises for Him.
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 12:28 AM
You are going round in circles Skavau.
Philosophy does. A lack of conclusion = constant speculation.

It is good that you ponder over this and may ALLAH reward your efforts in trying to know the truth.
Uh... thanks?

ALLAH is not constrained by time and He is free of all faults
The idea you present above means nothing to me because it doesn't say anything asides a statement. Your overall conclusion (that I can gather) is that we just are unable to comprehend God, or the concept of it. But that doesn't apply to me. I wish to search.

So it is clear that for ALLAH, the future is already known.
Then fate will take the course, ne?

he destiny was written long before we were even created. You can go ahead and change your mind a million times before you do something, ALLAH will know what will you end up doing in the end.
This implies that again, there is no free-will because Allah has already foreseen what is going to happen. Foreseen long before I even existed.

It is also recommended that we do not think about this too much because we simply can't.
The concept of 'everything' in knowledge, power and morality is impossible to comprehend because it has so many logical problems.

We are limited and our thinking is limited. By saying that ALLAH does change His mind, you are inferring that ALLAH wasn't sure what He was doing in the first place (Na'udhubillah), which is a blasphemy.
I don't think I said Allah would change his mind? Please quote where I said that.
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 12:35 AM
I don't see how Allah having knowledge of everything, including the past, present, and future, is undermining our free will. Knowledge is one thing, interfering with our free will is quite another.
Because if he has full knowledge of everything, then he knows the outcome of everything. My own decisions have already been preseen and to my eyes, that undermines free-will. This is what I mean, and I didn't type this bit:

What this means is - there really is no such thing as "free will". Free Will implies that we have a choice and that we can do A or we can do B but if God already knows we are going to do A then we are going to do A. We can't chose to do B because if we chose B then God would have been wrong about knowing we were going to choose A, and God can't be wrong. Thus there really is no real choice.
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Umar001
03-02-2007, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
This prostration stuff doesn't really answer the question posed in the first post.

My bad just that I can't stand such terrible views and understanding.


format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Does God change his mind? Wouldn't he know what he wanted from the start?

Yes He'd know what He wants from the Start or before the Start.


With regards to knowledge and free choice.

First it's free choice not free will, we only have choices between different circumstances given to us. If we have three doors, then we have the freedom of choice to choose between the doors but we dont have free will to make another door.

To move on, does knowing something before it happens mean that you are forcing it to happen or that there is no other possible outcome?

A mere example, a teacher teaches two students, he knows the characteristics of the students and is familier with their average examination results. He sets a test and based on his knowledge predicts one student will get 34% and the other 98%, the knowldge being stuff like the fact that one student does not study the night before and that he does not take notes and does not ask for help, he writes this and places it on his desk.

The students take the test, later one student sees the piece of paper with the predictions which in fact were right. Would this mean that the student had no free choice in studying the night before? Or taking notes? Or asking for help?

Similarly, Allah has the knowledge but we are not forced to commit adultery, we are not forced to pray all night, but we do, Allah knowing we do does not mean our choice is not ours.

Eesa
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Talha777
03-02-2007, 12:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Because if he has full knowledge of everything, then he knows the outcome of everything. My own decisions have already been preseen and to my eyes, that undermines free-will. This is what I mean, means is - there really is no such thing as "free will". Free Will implies that we have a choice and that we can do A or we can do B but if God already knows we are going to do A then we are going to do A. We can't chose to do B because if we chose B then God would have been wrong about knowing we were going to choose A, and God can't be wrong. Thus there really is no real choice.
You're still not making sense, and your confusing an outside knowledge of our actions as somehow compelling those actions. That is a fallacy on your part. Yes Allah knows if we are going to do A or B, but He doesn't compel us to do A or B. Knowing something is not the same as causing something.

The point of free will is that we become responsible for our actions, and so we become deserving of Heaven's reward or Hell's punishment. Let's say for the sake of argument that I know you are a good person and you will never steal in your whole life, even before your life is over. When you die without having stolen anything in your life, does it mean because my knowledge of your foreactions somehow compelled you to not steal? The answer is obviously no, and this scenario is similar to how Allah knows everything about our lives including its outcome, despite the fact that we have a limited free will.
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 12:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

You're still not making sense, and your confusing an outside knowledge of our actions as somehow compelling those actions. That is a fallacy on your part. Yes Allah knows if we are going to do A or B, but He doesn't compel us to do A or B. Knowing something is not the same as causing something.

The point of free will is that we become responsible for our actions, and so we become deserving of Heaven's reward or Hell's punishment. Let's say for the sake of argument that I know you are a good person and you will never steal in your whole life, even before your life is over. When you die without having stolen anything in your life, does it mean because my knowledge of your foreactions somehow compelled you to not steal? The answer is obviously no, and this scenario is similar to how Allah knows everything about our lives including its outcome, despite the fact that we have a limited free will.
I'm taking the assumption here that 'knowing the future' is a direct contradiction with free-will. My reasoning on this is using other examples. If someone knows you are going to do something, and no matter what - you will do it, there is no free-will on behalf of the action. In other words, if something is known - then there is nothing 'free' about it.

To relate this to God, well - he argubly did decide our futures because he designed us (according to Theists) with full knowledge of everything. At the beginning of creation, God would of known all of my choices in my life. Should this be the case then where does any free-will come into it? My future is known at the beginning and I will follow that because otherwise, God would be wrong. When do I myself decide upon these options? If they're known before I even exist as a human - then when do I decide what I'm going to do? At the moment itself? That's already been seen. I will make the set of choices I supposedly decided. So does my own inherent personality make those choices for me? Where does free-will begin and God's knowledge of everything end?

Thanks, Skavau.

Ps: I am off to bed soon, so I may not reply until a later date.
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NoName55
03-02-2007, 01:06 AM
I never knew we had free will, I always thought that we had a free choice to choose either this or that .
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Talha777
03-02-2007, 01:25 AM
When I say limited free will basically I mean free choice. Both terms are interchangable.
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NoName55
03-02-2007, 01:37 AM
Salaam Alaikum
I'm a nitpicker


also wanted to see your reaction
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Joe98
03-02-2007, 02:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
……we cannot change anyone's thinking until Allah wills it…

So, as an unbeliever, I cannot go to paradise.

But I cannot be a believer until Allah wills it.

So, if Allah does not will it I never will be a believer and never go to paradise.

This is yet further evidence there is no god.

-
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Umar001
03-02-2007, 03:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
So, as an unbeliever, I cannot go to paradise.

But I cannot be a believer until Allah wills it.

So, if Allah does not will it I never will be a believer and never go to paradise.

This is yet further evidence there is no god.

-

But what are the conditions for Allah to will it? This is what you should look at. If you seek truth then Allah will will it.

The above was not further evidence of no god but rather of how we can sometimes have acute vision.
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aamirsaab
03-02-2007, 01:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I'm taking the assumption here that 'knowing the future' is a direct contradiction with free-will. My reasoning on this is using other examples. If someone knows you are going to do something, and no matter what - you will do it, there is no free-will on behalf of the action. In other words, if something is known - then there is nothing 'free' about it.
Correction; there is free will since we do not know what decision we are going to make until we make it. God knows our intentions and the path we are going to take, but we as humans still have a choice.

So does my own inherent personality make those choices for me? Where does free-will begin and God's knowledge of everything end?
Well, ask yourself this, If you didn't have free will, would you be asking these questions?



format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
So, as an unbeliever, I cannot go to paradise.
That is for God to decide.

But I cannot be a believer until Allah wills it.
So, if Allah does not will it I never will be a believer and never go to paradise.
It's a two way thing; Allah is able to bless your heart with the desire to learn about Islam. Whether you convert/revert to the religion is not upto Allah, it is upto you.



This is yet further evidence there is no god.
Not really.

As for the thread title: Does God change his mind?. Obviously the thread starter has pretty much no idea what God is.
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HIJABI***
03-02-2007, 01:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pr1nc3ss
Thats what i meant...its 8.35 in the morning, giv me sum credit!! :rollseyes

How can God commit a sin?! Now ur just totallly killing da whole situation!

:w:

lolzzzzzzzz:happy:
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 04:31 PM
Correction; there is free will since we do not know what decision we are going to make until we make it. God knows our intentions and the path we are going to take, but we as humans still have a choice.
If someone tells me I am going to turn the light on in 5 minutes because they have seen me do it - then it doesn't matter if I could of chosen not to turn that light on in 5 minutes because the reality in this instance would be that I WOULD turn it on.

Well, ask yourself this, If you didn't have free will, would you be asking these questions?
Me asking questions is irrelevent to whether I have free will or not. If it has been seen that I would ask these questions, then I will inevitably ask these questions.
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aamirsaab
03-02-2007, 05:00 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
If someone tells me I am going to turn the light on in 5 minutes because they have seen me do it - then it doesn't matter if I could of chosen not to turn that light on in 5 minutes because the reality in this instance would be that I WOULD turn it on.
The reality would depend on what choice you made. God knows what choice you are going to make, but you have to carry it out. E.g. God has forseen which road you will take. However, when you choose to do this or the manner in which you do it is entirely up to you. The fact that you carry out the action is not a matter of free will, rather it is a matter of fate (e.g. it is fate that humans will reproduce, but at the same time there is free will of when it occurs). Hence we are able to believe in both free will and God.

Me asking questions is irrelevent to whether I have free will or not. If it has been seen that I would ask these questions, then I will inevitably ask these questions.
Yes but you have the free will to ask whoever, whatever and whenever you wish. As stated before, the fact that you are asking these questions is a matter of fate. Whether you are affected, adversely or favourably, by the answers is indeed free will since it is up to you to make that decision.
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AbuAbdallah
03-02-2007, 05:02 PM
If someone tells me I am going to turn the light on in 5 minutes because they have seen me do it - then it doesn't matter if I could of chosen not to turn that light on in 5 minutes because the reality in this instance would be that I WOULD turn it on.
As Muslims, we don't believe that God has told us every single decision that we will make, I think that is where you are getting confused. You can do whatever you are capable of doing, just know that Allah knew that you were going to do it. The free will is you doing whatever you want, the pre-destination is that Allah knew it before you were even created, get it?
Example: Instead of going to work, I freely decide to stay at home. Conclusion: I had free will, but it was also pre-destined.

If a person knew what their destiny was, then you would be correct in saying that there is no free will, but a person does not know what will happen in the next second. I hope this makes sense.
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 05:10 PM
The reality would depend on what choice you made. God knows what choice you are going to make, but you have to carry it out.
But when do I make this choice? At the time of the event happening? That can't truely be the case if the event has been foreseen.

E.g. God has forseen which road you will take. However, when you choose to do this or the manner in which you do it is entirely up to you.
But God would know that the manner in which I do it.

The fact that you carry out the action is not a matter of free will, rather it is a matter of fate
Fate and Free-Will to me are not compatible with each other. Fate say something WILL happen and nothing can stop it. Free-Will is the idea of being able to make independent thought. Somewhere along the line, Fate and Free-Will are going to hit each other.

(e.g. it is fate that humans will reproduce, but at the same time there is free will of when it occurs).
Well all humans could just not from now take part in any sexual activity whatsoever. Therefore it would not be inevitable that reproduction would occur.

Yes but you have the free will to ask whoever, whatever and whenever you wish.
Correct - but that would be an illusion. Just because I am under the impression that I have independent thought and full control of my actions does not mean that I do have free-will.

As stated before, the fact that you are asking these questions is a matter of fate. Whether you are affected, adversely or favourably, by the answers is indeed free will since it is up to you to make that decision.
So you're saying it was inevitable that I would ask these questions? That the only independent thing resulting from this is my reaction to these questions?

So you believe Free-Will is only choosing decisions? I chose a decision to come onto these forums and post on here. Was that free-will? It led to me finding this thread and discussing this topic. The Free-Will of making a decision to come here led me to this topic but the result of this was inevitable?

Many thanks, Skavau.
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 05:14 PM
As Muslims, we don't believe that God has told us every single decision that we will make, I think that is where you are getting confused. You can do whatever you are capable of doing, just know that Allah knew that you were going to do it. The free will is you doing whatever you want, the pre-destination is that Allah knew it before you were even created, get it?
I understand the viewpoint you're coming from - but my argument rests on the basis that I do not believe knowledge of the future is compatible with free-will. You say that I'm able to do "whatever I am capable of doing", but when I am able to make these choices? They have been pre-seen by Allah. Do I make them when I come to a decision? The decision creates the action itself but if that decision has been known by someone else infinitely before I made it, then when do I make the decision? It can't happen at the moment because it was already foreseen to happen.
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AbuAbdallah
03-02-2007, 05:50 PM
The decision creates the action itself but if that decision has been known by someone else infinitely before I made it, then when do I make the decision?
The decision has been known, not made. You make the decision at that point in time. If someone has knowledge of all of your actions before they were executed, that still does not affect what you will do now.
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 06:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
The decision has been known, not made. You make the decision at that point in time. If someone has knowledge of all of your actions before they were executed, that still does not affect what you will do now.
No it doesn't effect what I will do now, but it does effect my own freedom in doing what I do.
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AbuAbdallah
03-02-2007, 07:56 PM
No it doesn't effect what I will do now, but it does effect my own freedom in doing what I do.
?...we must have two different definitions of freedom, what is the difference of choosing to do something, and having the freedom of choosing to do something? Same thing if you ask me.
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
?...we must have two different definitions of freedom, what is the difference of choosing to do something, and having the freedom of choosing to do something? Same thing if you ask me.
I never mentioned choice, I mentioned the action. I mentioned the act of doing something itself doesn't change, but the freedom involved in doing it is gone.

I'm of the opinion there is no freedom of choice if the future is known. I don't understand where the original choice is made if the future is known. If God is able to see what will happen, then when what God sees does happen no matter what. Even if choice can co-exist, then my own choices have already been seen - so no matter what I am following a preseen path. I don't see how my own choice is made.
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Talha777
03-02-2007, 08:32 PM
I'm of the opinion there is no freedom of choice if the future is known. I don't understand where the original choice is made if the future is known. If God is able to see what will happen, then when what God sees does happen no matter what. Even if choice can co-exist, then my own choices have already been seen - so no matter what I am following a preseen path. I don't see how my own choice is made.
You're opinion that there is no freedom of choice if the future is know is incorrect. The future is known and we do have a choice. Our paths are preseen yes, but the path we take is subject to our choice. You need to do a better job of explaining why foreseeing something by Allah is somehow compelling that event to occur. Yes if Allah knows something, it will happen no matter what, but He knows it because you will do it.

But instead of us going in circles with this, I will simply ask you, even if Allah knows what we are going to do in life, is that an excuse for people to do evil, yes or no?
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 08:40 PM
You're opinion that there is no freedom of choice if the future is know is incorrect.
There's some typoes there? I contend there is no freedom of choice if the future is known by a source.

Our paths are preseen yes, but the path we take is subject to our choice.
But when is the choice made? It can't be at the current time because the choice has already been foreseen. So when?

You need to do a better job of explaining why foreseeing something by Allah is somehow compelling that event to occur.
I'm not suggesting that Allah is compelling anything to happen. He compells something to happen by the basis that he created everything - but I am not suggesting he is controlling anything. He just has the knowledge in this instance.

I will simply ask you, even if Allah knows what we are going to do in life, is that an excuse for people to do evil, yes or no?
If Allah knows, then what happens is what happens. It would be an inevitable consequence.

But I do not advocate evil in any sense. Why do you ask this?
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Talha777
03-02-2007, 08:56 PM
If Allah knows, then what happens is what happens. It would be an inevitable consequence.

But I do not advocate evil in any sense. Why do you ask this?
Our actions are not a consequence of Allah's knowledge of them. Rather, His knowledge of them is a consequence of Him Knowing everything, and our actions are a consequence of Allah giving us a limited free will in some aspects of our existence.

I ask this because our limited free will is so that we can be held account for our deeds. If Allah compels us to do something than how can we be held accountable for it?
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thirdwatch512
03-02-2007, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
so, you believe in and follow Tanakh as Jews believe in it?

according to who is this
first there was 1 then it was 2 then 3 gods then 3in1
first no eating swine or blood or strangled animal then there was free for all, in The Old Testament G-d said not to eat swine but he seems to have told you: its ok, I'v changed my mind (perhaps on request of Paul and Romans)
first their was circumcision there was not
first Shabbat was seventh day of week then it is first
first he said don't make idols to worship, now he is allowing it

would you like me to go on and on?

peace

1. we don't believe in three gods.

and 2. paul answered all these questions..the law is a spiritual thing.
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Talha777
03-02-2007, 09:09 PM
Paul contradicted Jesus (alaihi salam) on the purpose of the Mosaic Law. Jesus (alaihi salam) is reported in the New Testament as encouraging his followers to obey strictly what the Pharisees say, and to follow the Law of Moses:

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples. Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (Matthew 23:1-3)

Meaning that Jesus Christ (alaihi salam) commanded his followers to abide by whatever the Pharisees preach, because they preach the Law of Moses, but not to copy their actions, because they are hypocrites (they don't practice what they preach).

And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah (Al-Maidah 5:46)

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17)

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Skavau
03-02-2007, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

Our actions are not a consequence of Allah's knowledge of them. Rather, His knowledge of them is a consequence of Him Knowing everything, and our actions are a consequence of Allah giving us a limited free will in some aspects of our existence.

I ask this because our limited free will is so that we can be held account for our deeds. If Allah compels us to do something than how can we be held accountable for it?
I don't suggest Allah compels us to do anything, I suggest that him knowing everything is a problem with the idea of free-choice. And yes, without independent will - the idea of accountability goes out of the window.
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Skywalker
03-02-2007, 09:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I don't suggest Allah compels us to do anything, I suggest that him knowing everything is a problem with the idea of free-choice. And yes, without independent will - the idea of accountability goes out of the window.
Not exactly. Why should God's knowledge of your actions -- past, present, and future -- affect your free will? No matter what you do, God already knows that you will do it, but what you'll be held accountable for will be your intention for every action.

It's kinda like that line from the Matrix: "You're not here to make the choice -- you've already made it. You're here to find out why you made it."
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker
Not exactly. Why should God's knowledge of your actions -- past, present, and future -- affect your free will? No matter what you do, God already knows that you will do it, but what you'll be held accountable for will be your intention for every action.

It's kinda like that line from the Matrix: "You're not here to make the choice -- you've already made it. You're here to find out why you made it."
Okay, but what are my intentions and when are they decided? Upon the creation, Allah could see the course of my life. Did I decide then how I would live?

So when I was born, my future was known - my path had already been seen. I would be doomed to follow it because it has been preseen and then I'm being told that the path I would go on is from my own choices?
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Ra`eesah
03-02-2007, 09:30 PM
Let us image that we are all created and from our creation we are all placed in our final abode. Those in hell will say “ What have I done to deserve this?” and of course we know that Allaah placed those in hell who deserve it, but no he gave you that chance to live it out, and to change if you wanted to and if you didn’t, then that is enough for you to accept the fact that you are going to hell when you are told to go to hell. Because you can not say, I DID NOT KNOW! Or I DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO PROVE MYSELF. And for that is the reason why Allaah from his mercy lets you live your life with free will. Just because he knows the past, present, and future does not rid you of your free will.
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Skywalker
03-02-2007, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Okay, but what are my intentions and when are they decided?
You decide your own intentions before doing something. They are then used on the Day of Judgement either for your or against you, depending on whether they were good or bad.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Upon the creation, Allah could see the course of my life. Did I decide then how I would live?
You decide how you live with every decision that you make in your life. Allah knows what you're going to do, but it's up to you to do the action and then see for yourself how and why you did it. Free will does not play a part in this at all because you don't know what your destiny is nor do you know what God knows. You only know what God has told you and ordered you to do, and it's up to you to either live your life according to those rules, or not.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
So when I was born, my future was known - my path had already been seen.
By Allah, yes. But not by anyone else.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I would be doomed to follow it because it has been preseen and then I'm being told that the path I would go on is from my own choices?
Exactly. This path that is preseen (or better yet pre-written) by God is a collection of your own choices, which you are not aware of. You will only know them once you've done them, and then again on the Day of Judgement. Again, free will is not a factor in this UNLESS you know what your destiny is, which nobody does but Allah.
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 09:57 PM
You decide your own intentions before doing something. They are then used on the Day of Judgement either for your or against you, depending on whether they were good or bad.
But when I do something, I don't see how I can clarify my intentions at the time if they have already been seen.

You decide how you live with every decision that you make in your life. Allah knows what you're going to do, but it's up to you to do the action and then see for yourself how and why you did it. Free will does not play a part in this at all because you don't know what your destiny is nor do you know what God knows. You only know what God has told you and ordered you to do, and it's up to you to either live your life according to those rules, or not.
Then it is an illusion. If another source knows my path, based on my actions or otherwise - it is GOING to happen. Irrelelvent if I know it.

By Allah, yes. But not by anyone else.
So Allah sees the path of millions who die before they gain the ability to make their own choices?

My argument falls on the idea that I contend Free-Will is incompatible with the knowledge of the future by any source. Anyway, I will leave now. I will continue this discussion elsewhen.

Good Day.
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NoName55
03-02-2007, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
1. we don't believe in three gods.

and 2. paul answered all these questions..the law is a spiritual thing.
You astonish me, I am gobsmaked.

in answer to your allegation against Islaam, I said and I quote for you again
Originally Posted by NoName55


so, you believe in and follow Tanakh as Jews believe in it?

according to who is this
first there was 1 then it was 2 then 3 gods then 3in1
first no eating swine or blood or strangled animal then there was free for all, in The Old Testament G-d said not to eat swine but he seems to have told you: its ok, I'v changed my mind (perhaps on request of Paul and Romans)
first their was circumcision there was not
first Shabbat was seventh day of week then it is first
first he said don't make idols to worship, now he is allowing it

would you like me to go on and on?

peace
So its not changed, Paul obeys the law spiritually instead in deed and action.
so in practical terms if one passes a victim of stabbing, one can just pass on by, no need to call an ambulance because Christ is going to take care of it.
we should not bother sending any help to any victims of any disaster since it would be usuping Jesus' authority?

no circimcision, for circimcision of the mind!

I give up!!!

Peace
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Skywalker
03-02-2007, 10:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
But when I do something, I don't see how I can clarify my intentions at the time if they have already been seen.
Even if they've already been seen or not, you will have your intention as proof that you did what you did for a particular reason. For example, if you step on a bug inside your house; is your intention to kill the bug because you like killing bugs, or is it because you fear that it might harm you or your family?

There's a very cool story about Ali (ra), the Prophet's (pbuh) son in law, who was fighting in a war during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). He was duelling with a man and he forced him to the ground and was just about to finish him off, when the man spit in his face. At that point Ali put his sword down and told the man that he could go. The man was confused, so he asked him why he was letting him go. Ali told him that he was fighting the war for the sake of Allah, to end opression against his people and to establish justice, but when that man spit at him, he was no longer going to kill him for Allah's sake, but out of his own anger and hatred. The intention in that case, and in almost all decisions in life, changes everything.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Then it is an illusion. If another source knows my path, based on my actions or otherwise - it is GOING to happen. Irrelelvent if I know it.
Yes, but nevertheless, from your point of view, you have freewill to do what you want. For example, if you suspect that your destiny is to take a right turn at an intersection, but you want to execise your freewill and challenge destiny, so you take a left turn instead. Is this not freewill? Nevertheless, it was still your destiny to take a left turn, and not a right. It was your destiny to attempt to challenge your destiny, which led you to take a left turn. There is no illusion.

Now do you get it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
So Allah sees the path of millions who die before they gain the ability to make their own choices?
That is correct. However, He has promised paradise to those who die before they are able to make conscious decisions, therefore they will not be held accountable for anything.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
My argument falls on the idea that I contend Free-Will is incompatible with the knowledge of the future by any source.
I hope that my example has helped you see that they are, in fact, compatible.
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Skavau
03-02-2007, 10:42 PM
Even if they've already been seen or not, you will have your intention as proof that you did what you did for a particular reason. For example, if you step on a bug inside your house; is your intention to kill the bug because you like killing bugs, or is it because you fear that it might harm you or your family?
Let's suggest that it is because I like killing bugs. When do I decide to have the intention of killing bugs? According to free-will, your motivations and opinions are built up from your own experience. Experience implies I will do something. That something I do though has already been pre-seen by another figure. I have already been seen to do everything I will do even though I do not exist as of yet. No matter what I will fulfill what has been seen.

If I will fulfill what has been seen, then where do I draw my motivations and beliefs from? It can't be from previous experiences because they were already seen to happen regardless of what my motivation would be. I'm trying to find a way of putting this into words. :grumbling

Yes, but nevertheless, from your point of view, you have freewill to do what you want. For example, if you suspect that your destiny is to take a right turn at an intersection, but you want to execise your freewill and challenge destiny, so you take a left turn instead. Is this not freewill? Nevertheless, it was still your destiny to take a left turn, and not a right. It was your destiny to attempt to challenge your destiny, which led you to take a left turn. There is no illusion.
It would of been preseen by Allah that I would inevitably take a left-turn despite my apparent confusion on what turn that I would take - I would, in the end - take the left-turn. My lack of knowledge over my future does not eradicate that another source would know my future.

That is correct. However, He has promised paradise to those who die before they are able to make conscious decisions, therefore they will not be held accountable for anything.
What is the purpose of their existence then? He would of pre-seen millions of individuals who would live for a very short time and then die and be given an instant position in paradise?

Anyway, now I really must go. I used to say a lot more stuff about this topic in the past - but I'm finding hard to clarify what I mean on this - when it goes this deep.

Anyway, G'day.
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asma14
03-02-2007, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
Personally I think it's pointless debating with disbelievers and those who think they have the right to question God's will. It's futile, because only Allah guides who He wills.

I am satisfied that Allah will answer all your questions on the Day and answer them in a way that will be remembered for eternity. Muslims are being dragged into these pointless discussions rather than gaining more knowledge about their deen.

Muslim brothers and sisters, on-going debates only lead to blasphemous comments from non believers. Who needs it? Remember, we cannot change anyone's thinking until Allah wills it. And when He wills it, He opens the doors for them.

Let's spend our time and energy increasing our knowledge and helping our brothers and sisters who are needy or lost. There's a difference between giving dawah and trying to refute something that someone so adamantly believes. I hope you all agree with me - salam.

i agree with you...why not simply answer the question, and then go on and learn more important things about Islam....?
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Talha777
03-03-2007, 12:41 AM
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.

I agree, I have personally written several posts clarifying the belief of Islam in this regard and answer several of Mr. Skavau's questions. To continue on is a pointless waste of time. I request the thread should be closed.
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Skywalker
03-03-2007, 08:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Let's suggest that it is because I like killing bugs. When do I decide to have the intention of killing bugs?
In Islam, we have a habit of stating our intention before doing anything, usually in our heads or as a whisper, so that it can be recorded by the Angels and used for your benefit on the Day of Judgement. That's why we say "Bismillah" whenever we do something good or something for Allah's sake. But an intention could also be unconscious, and this is based on your character and your experiences as you said.

An interesting aspect to this is that if you don't intend to do something bad and it just happens, then you won't be punished for it. You'll only be punished for a bad thing that you intended to do. Also, if you make the intention of doing something bad, but don't do it, Allah will reward you. Also, if you intend to do something good, but don't do it, Allah will give you one reward for you intention... but if you carry out the good act after you've made your intention, Allah will reward you a thousand times over. That's Allah's great generosity and mecry for ya!

Allah's is the only judicial system that judges you by your intention, and is the only one that can be 100% fair.

I take it you're here to learn some of these things, that's why I'm writing this. I hope I'm not boring you...

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I have already been seen to do everything I will do even though I do not exist as of yet. No matter what I will fulfill what has been seen.
That is correct. I think it's important to point out that westerners have a rather different understanding of what destiny is than Muslims. I've noticed in a lot of movies, shows, etc. that characters are always saying how they want to change their destinies, or change their fates. What it seems to me is that they think that if they are born into a certain way of life, let's say being poor, that if they become rich later on in life, they are changing their destiny. Or if they think they can't do something and everybody keeps insisting that it's their destiny to forget about it, and they do it anyways, that their destiny has changed somehow.

The Islamic understanding is that all the choices that you'll make in life and all the actions that you'll do as a result of those choices is pre-written. Now, on the Day of Judgement, Allah will tell you that you did that and that, and He will ask you why you did it. This is where your intention comes in. If your intention is for good and out of obedience to Allah, then it'll be counted as a good deed, but if it was for something bad, or something out of rebellion to Allah, then it'll be counted as a bad deed. We each live our lives so that we have a chance to make the right intentions for our actions (which to us seem like choices), so that we will have proof on the Day of Judgement that we did each action for certain reasons.

It's exactly how they said it in the Matrix: "You're not here to make the choice -- you've already made it. You're here to find out why you made it."

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
If I will fulfill what has been seen, then where do I draw my motivations and beliefs from? It can't be from previous experiences because they were already seen to happen regardless of what my motivation would be. I'm trying to find a way of putting this into words.
Yeah, I know it's tricky, all this destiny talk. Well, you live your live obvlivious to your future, all you know is your past and your present, and what has been revealed by Allah to be the future. So in other words, who really cares what your destiny is as long as you do your best on an everyday basis to do good things and to please Allah. You motivation in this case is from your faith in Allah which is partly from the natural beacon that he placed inside each of us that wants to return to Him, and this is what gives us compassion, discipline, and all things that make us want to live by good deeds and in peace with one another.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
My lack of knowledge over my future does not eradicate that another source would know my future.
That "other source" is Allah. I don't see what the problem is with that, as it would not influence your freewill whatsoever.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
What is the purpose of their existence then? He would of pre-seen millions of individuals who would live for a very short time and then die and be given an instant position in paradise?
Only Allah knows that their role is on the earth. We can only speculate. Maybe it's a test of integrity for their parents, or maybe a test of compassion for the nurses and doctors that would treat a newborn baby before it dies. Everyone is faced with some kind of tragedy or hardship in their lives as a test from Allah. Even the ones who seem to have it easy, they're also being tested, just differently than others.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I used to say a lot more stuff about this topic in the past - but I'm finding hard to clarify what I mean on this - when it goes this deep.
I know what you mean, man.
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Skavau
03-03-2007, 12:08 PM
In Islam, we have a habit of stating our intention before doing anything, usually in our heads or as a whisper, so that it can be recorded by the Angels and used for your benefit on the Day of Judgement. That's why we say "Bismillah" whenever we do something good or something for Allah's sake. But an intention could also be unconscious, and this is based on your character and your experiences as you said.

An interesting aspect to this is that if you don't intend to do something bad and it just happens, then you won't be punished for it. You'll only be punished for a bad thing that you intended to do. Also, if you make the intention of doing something bad, but don't do it, Allah will reward you. Also, if you intend to do something good, but don't do it, Allah will give you one reward for you intention... but if you carry out the good act after you've made your intention, Allah will reward you a thousand times over. That's Allah's great generosity and mecry for ya!
Well that all sounds like a productive system, and it would be to me if there wasn't the conflict that I see of fate being incompatible with the idea of free-point. I don't see how the intention is made just before the action happens. The action has already been seen. You've already been seen that you'll do it. So are intentions inherent?

I've also come to consider that if the future is known, it implies a force existent to foresee it. If that is the case, then is the future under a degree of control? It implies that there is only a set path - which brings about the idea of something developing that path.

That is correct. I think it's important to point out that westerners have a rather different understanding of what destiny is than Muslims. I've noticed in a lot of movies, shows, etc. that characters are always saying how they want to change their destinies, or change their fates. What it seems to me is that they think that if they are born into a certain way of life, let's say being poor, that if they become rich later on in life, they are changing their destiny. Or if they think they can't do something and everybody keeps insisting that it's their destiny to forget about it, and they do it anyways, that their destiny has changed somehow.
If destiny exists then it cannot be changed.

Only Allah knows that their role is on the earth. We can only speculate. Maybe it's a test of integrity for their parents, or maybe a test of compassion for the nurses and doctors that would treat a newborn baby before it dies. Everyone is faced with some kind of tragedy or hardship in their lives as a test from Allah. Even the ones who seem to have it easy, they're also being tested, just differently than others.
So Allah presees all these tests at the beginning. He sees the results of them all too? So he develops existence for us humans. He already knows the fate of everything (so where do you assess the motivation?)

I do not see 'testing' as a valid position when Allah is aware of all the outcomes and our actions have already been seen.

Anyway, Good Day. I'm off to work now.
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Muezzin
03-03-2007, 02:18 PM
Danger, Will Robinson. Off-topic posts.
Reply

Skywalker
03-03-2007, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Well that all sounds like a productive system, and it would be to me if there wasn't the conflict that I see of fate being incompatible with the idea of free-point. I don't see how the intention is made just before the action happens. The action has already been seen. You've already been seen that you'll do it. So are intentions inherent?
The intention is made before you do the action either consciously or unconsciously. The outcome is the same, the action will take place, but your intention for that action depends on you, your will, your faith, your experience, etc. and this is what will be used to judge you.

To be honest, I don't understand your point of view of how destiny can hinder freewill. As long as you don't know what your destiny is, then you're free to do whatever you like, however you like.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I've also come to consider that if the future is known, it implies a force existent to foresee it. If that is the case, then is the future under a degree of control? It implies that there is only a set path - which brings about the idea of something developing that path.
Well this is where things might get a little complicated. God doesn't need to foresee the future, He actually exists in the future, and in the past, and now -- time is not an issue when it comes to Allah, it's merely something He created for us like a timer on an exam. So he doesn't need to "foresee" anything, He simply "sees" it. And yes, the future is under a degree of control, as is the past and the present. However, my guess on this is that, for example, for an earthquake to happen in California on July 28th, 2008, God had aligned the tactonic plates and all variables needed at the beginning of creation so that an earthquake will happen on that date. That means that He has already created all scenarios from the beginning of time to the end of time, calculated all the variables, and "pressed the ON button" if you will. That's how amazing Allah's knowledge is.

As for the "developing path" point, the path is constantly developing with time, but how and when that path will develop has already been pre-determined.

Idunno if I made my points as clear as I wanted this time around, but yeah, it's getting harder to express certain things the deeper we go.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
If destiny exists then it cannot be changed.
I'm glad we agree :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I do not see 'testing' as a valid position when Allah is aware of all the outcomes and our actions have already been seen.
The test is not for Him to see if you're good enough, the test is for YOU to see if you're good enough and deserving of God's reward.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Danger, Will Robinson. Off-topic posts.
Dude, we're right on topic! Destiny has everything to do with the idea of "God changing His mind."
Reply

Makky
03-04-2007, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Does God change his mind? Wouldn't he know what he wanted from the start?

The answer is : NO he doesn't

Allah says in surrat Qaf : [29] "The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants."

But according to shiaa(1) they believe that He changes his mind and this belief innovated due to the delay of the appearance of thier (IMAM) , because before year 140 (after hijrah) shiaa used to believe that their (IMAM almahdi) will appears form a tunnel in a city called samerraa but yet when year 140 came he didn't appear ,lol, so they innovated a belief which says that Allah changes his mind..and he changed his mind about that

source:
أصول الكافي ص232 مطبوعة الهند
Aussul alkafi ( a shia book)





______________________________________________

(1)this belief leads them to kufr because Allah says in [50:29] "The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants." and he says in surrat alan3am [6:59] With Him are the keys of the Unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a Record clear (to those who can read).
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Abdihakim
03-04-2007, 09:30 PM
as a muslim i personally think no. :)
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Azhar786
03-04-2007, 10:24 PM
Salaam
God Does Not Change His Mind, God Already Knew Wat A Person Was Goin 2do B4 He Even Created Us Humans
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