Guru Nanak Dev Ji a Muslim....?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

(Pure Ones Belong To God, Victory To God)

Let's clear this up once and for all.....

Now many times on other threads that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sikh Prophet/Avtaar is/was muslim!

Many people think that Sikhism is a sect of Islam


God sent Guru Nanak Dev Ji to the this world in order to enlighten Hindus and Muslims that they are merely fighting with each other trying to prove that their religion is superior. Guru Nanak Dev Ji preached that one does not have to be in a certain religion to meet God. It does not matter which religion one belongs to, as long as one performs true worship and meditation, he or she is capable of meeting with God. As proclaimed by God, Guru Nanak Dev Ji introduced a true immaculate way in order to attain salvation and be one with God. Whoever followed the way of Guru Nanak Dev Ji was known as Sikh. Many Hindus and Muslims joined Guru Nanak Dev Ji and became his follower. Sikhism is an independent way to meet God, which does not derive any ritual from either Hinduism or Islam, however there are some similarities in the rituals and beliefs which are clarified below. Sikhism is an individual faith established by God through Sikh Gurus and it is completely wrong to consider Sikhism as a part or combination of either Hinduism or Islam.

Guru Nanak considers himself neither Hindu nor Muslim. He did not follow Hindu rituals and nor did he join Islamic law. As commanded by God, Guru Nanak introduced a true faith, whose sole purpose is the love towards God. Guru Nanak Dev Ji denounced the superstitions followed by Hindu and Muslims and told them to worship God instead of considering their religion superior.


Following are the reasons how Sikhism is different

1. Muslims believe in polygamy and they even marry their cousins. By Islamic law Muslims can have up to four wives. Guru Nanak Dev Ji completely denounced these activities and instructed to be wedded to one person only.

2. Muslims indulge in animal sacrifices and Guru Nanak told them that this would not bring any good. Killing God’s creations in the Name of God is totally ironic. [ More ... ]


3. Muslims makes fast and consider the month of Ramadan holy. Sikhism instructs that making your body suffer will not help you to meet God. Sikhism tells that meditation of God is above all.

4. Muslims cut their hair. Sikhs however do not cut their hair as a respect towards God and live the way God made us.

5. Guru Nanak Dev Ji instructed to focus on meditation of God instead of glorifying a religion. To the Muslims Guru Nanak says, “The Muslims praise the Islamic law; they read and reflect upon it but God’s bound servants are those who bind themselves to see God” (Guru Granth Sahib, 465).


It is completely ridiculous to consider Sikhism a sect of any other religion. Just like you wouldn’t consider Christianity a sect of Buddhism, you should not consider Sikhism a sect of either Islam or Hinduism or a combination of both.


Guru Gobind Singh Ji (Tenth Sikh Prophet/Avtaar) said the following

''Bichatra Natak...he calls Muhammad MahaDeen..meaning Maha = Great..Deen = Religion''

This is respect, and nothing more. Jesus is revered in Islam, does that make you Christians? No. So hence forth stop concocting things up.

If you have any questions about Guru Nanak Dev Ji, please ask them here and will answer to the best of my abilty!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

(Pure Ones Belong To God, Victory To God)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

I have appeared in this age to indicate the way unto men. I reject all sects, and only know one God, whom I recognise in the earth, the heavens, and in all directions.”

[AbuAbdallah]

This is a little of topic, but do you carry a kirpan (dagger) for self defense?

[AvarAllahNoor]

This is a little of topic, but do you carry a kirpan (dagger) for self defense?

Yes it is off topic, because this thread is only for questions about Guru Nanak and how he is not a muslim!

Anyway...

This injunction was primarily in order to protect the weak from tyranny and slavery, to maintain a state of harmony and security, to allow for the free development of trade, craftsmanship, arts & literature and to safeguard and protect the universal right of all beings to live their lives in a peaceful,

So basically it's a job of a Sikh to stand up for those who can't themselves no matter what religion or creed, colour. Something unique i think you'll find!

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[TABS19]

When all other means have failed, it is then righteous to take the sword in hand."
Zafar-namah, Dasam Granth
Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji - The Tenth Master

Kirpa - is act of kindness
aan- self respect

The Kirpan is not an offensive weapon, it can only be used in self-defence.

[AbuAbdallah]

Yes it is off topic, because this thread is only for questions about Guru Nanak and how he is not a muslim!

My apologies.

[AvarAllahNoor]

My apologies.

It's OK brother, didn't mean to sound harsh! :)

Hope your understanding of the Kirpan and it's purpose is much better now!

[chacha_jalebi]

i dunno why but quite a lot of people say so called people are muslim, like people say guru nanak was muslim and even that shirdi sai baba was a muslim, if someone is or isnt muslim, it aint gona make a difference to islam! islam is stil gona be the truth :D, its like that saying ....

"islam isnt in need of us, we are in need of it"

[AvarAllahNoor]

True chacha - But we are happy Muslims want to claim Guru Nanak because he was such a great man same with Hindus.

But using it to convert Sikhs is wrong, so Just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings!

[TABS19]

Hey chacha jalebi

i dunno why but quite a lot of people say so called people are muslim, like people say guru nanak was muslim and even that shirdi sai baba was a muslim, if someone is or isnt muslim, it aint gona make a difference to islam! islam is stil gona be the truth , its like that saying ....

"islam isnt in need of us, we are in need of it"

So why are certain Muslims using Guru Nanak and Shirdi Sai Baba by saying they are Muslims?

Shirdi Sai Baba was neither Muslim nor Sikh nor Hindu. He also preached the oneness of God but did not create a new religion nor stress the importance of one. He lived in a Masjid, but arati (pooja) with lamps was done everyday there everyday.

[Muslim Knight]

Guru Nanak considers himself neither Hindu nor Muslim. He did not follow Hindu rituals and nor did he join Islamic law. As commanded by God, Guru Nanak introduced a true faith, whose sole purpose is the love towards God. Guru Nanak Dev Ji denounced the superstitions followed by Hindu and Muslims and told them to worship God instead of considering their religion superior.

It doesn't matter whether he is a Muslim, a Hindu or a Sikh. We'll all know soon enough come the Day of Judgment.

1. Muslims believe in polygamy and they even marry their cousins. By Islamic law Muslims can have up to four wives. Guru Nanak Dev Ji completely denounced these activities and instructed to be wedded to one person only.

Polygamy as a privilege and not a right. Great power comes with great responsibility. Wars and diseases result in widows and orphans and who else can take care of them if not the men without causing scandals? Who else to protect them from the depredation of others? Today's societies frown upon moral things while prostitution, promiscuity and extra-marital affairs are celebrated upon.

2. Muslims indulge in animal sacrifices and Guru Nanak told them that this would not bring any good. Killing God’s creations in the Name of God is totally ironic. [ More ... ]

I would take great offence if someone likens sacrifice to drinking beer, by saying "indulge". The sacrifice means the needy and the poor can be given something to eat, out of the coffers of able & wealthy individuals who want to ease their pain and seek the countenance of God by following His commands. Our property is a trust given to us by Allah, and through giving up of our worldly properties to help others & to seek His countenance reflects how much faith we have in Him and our willingness to give up something for His Good Pleasure.

3. Muslims makes fast and consider the month of Ramadan holy. Sikhism instructs that making your body suffer will not help you to meet God. Sikhism tells that meditation of God is above all.

Tell that to a Buddhist instead of a Muslim.

Fasting during the day keeps the body healthy from overeating and teaches us to sympathise with those who can't even find a crumb of bread to subsist for even a day. The virtues of Ramadhan teaches Muslims to be charitable and patient in the face of hardness. I guess we don't post enough to allow non-Muslims to learn more about Islam in this forum. Either that or they aren't even interested.

4. Muslims cut their hair. Sikhs however do not cut their hair as a respect towards God and live the way God made us.

I guess we all were born naked. Let's respect that also by not wearing any clothes.

Umm.. on the other hand, I'd rather respect God and other people by not offending His and their sight and keeping clean and neat.

5. Guru Nanak Dev Ji instructed to focus on meditation of God instead of glorifying a religion. To the Muslims Guru Nanak says, “The Muslims praise the Islamic law; they read and reflect upon it but God’s bound servants are those who bind themselves to see God” (Guru Granth Sahib, 465).

Muslims are supposed to meditate on God whenever they face the qiblah in their prayers. To glorify God who deserves glorification. Praise be to Allah.

The part of Ihsaan is to worship Allah as if we are seeing Him. But if that is not within our ability then we must remember that He is constantly watching over us.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Muslim Knight....

Fasting during the day keeps the body healthy from overeating and teaches us to sympathise with those who can't even find a crumb of bread to subsist for even a day. The virtues of Ramadhan teaches Muslims to be charitable and patient in the face of hardness. I guess we don't post enough to allow non-Muslims to learn more about Islam in this forum. Either that or they aren't even interested

Fine, but then should you not live in this way 24/7 365 days a year until the end, rather than just one month during Ramadan?

[AbuAbdallah]

Fine, but then should you not live in this way 24/7 365 days a year until the end, rather than just one month during Ramadan?

For the same reason that we don't pray 24/7 365 days a year, it is from Allah's Mercy that He does not burden us with something that we cannot take.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Peacee!

do you guys have like a whole biogrophy and life details of the guru? :?

[Muezzin]

It's kind of funny how both Hindus and Muslims fight over Guru Nanak. 'He was Hindu!' 'He was Muslim!'

I'm just like, 'Dudes. Be quiet. This is getting embarassing.'

[AvarAllahNoor]

It's kind of funny how both Hindus and Muslims fight over Guru Nanak. 'He was Hindu!' 'He was Muslim!'

I'm just like, 'Dudes. Be quiet. This is getting embarassing.'

Everybody wants to be associated with the best Dude! :D

[AvarAllahNoor]

For the same reason that we don't pray 24/7 365 days a year, it is from Allah's Mercy that He does not burden us with something that we cannot take.

So you should not be giving to charity etc etc outside of Ramzan? That is what I meant!

[snakelegs]

[B]Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh
Guru Nanak Dev Ji preached that one does not have to be in a certain religion to meet God. It does not matter which religion one belongs to, as long as one performs true worship and meditation, he or she is capable of meeting with God.
......told them to worship God instead of considering their religion superior.

I reject all sects, and only know one God, whom I recognise in the earth, the heavens, and in all directions.”

i never thought sikhism was a sect of islam or hinduism.
i find the thoughts above reflect my thinking quite well.
question i have is, in view of the above, is it necessary to even be a sikh?

(TABS 19)
Kirpa - is act of kindness
aan- self respect.

this was interesting. i knew the word kirpa and always wondered how it related to kirpan!

[AvarAllahNoor]

.
I find the thoughts above reflect my thinking quite well.
question i have is, in view of the above, is it necessary to even be a sikh?

!

No it's not, but you'll find the more you read the Guru Granth Sahib, and listen to Kirtan, the more you want to explore Sikhi. Which then would make you want to be a Sikh, and follow the teaching of Guru Nanaks successors! - :happy:

[snakelegs]

No it's not, but you'll find the more you read the Guru Granth Sahib, and listen to Kirtan, the more you want to explore Sikhi. Which then would make you want to be a Sikh, and follow the teaching of Guru Nanaks successors! - :happy:

now, that is cooool - a religion that says it isn't necessary to be a member in order to worship/meet god!!!
that must be totally unique!

[AbuAbdallah]

So you should not be giving to charity etc etc outside of Ramzan? That is what I meant!

I'm sorry, I misread your statement, I thought you were asking why we shouldn't fast all year round!

[DAWUD_adnan]

dude is siksm like a comentary on islam or something, always with the muslims do this and that.. cant they just leave us alone.

Abu Abdallah, the naked part was kinda funny..and true

Everybody wants to be associated with the best Dude! :D

i dont see why some muslims say he was a muslim...this guru guy, he didnt contribute anything to islam he only caused confusion among men.

ow one more thing debating isnt gonna solve anything WE WILL see come Judgment Day. if you believe in it....

[Malaikah]

So basically it's a job of a Sikh to stand up for those who can't themselves no matter what religion or creed, colour. Something unique i think you'll find!

The sword probably, yes, is unique, but the concept? Not at all.

now, that is cooool - a religion that says it isn't necessary to be a member in order to worship/meet god!!!
that must be totally unique!

Jews believe that too. That is why they have the 7 laws thing for non-Jews.

[snakelegs]

The sword probably, yes, is unique, but the concept? Not at all.



Jews believe that too. That is why they have the 7 laws thing for non-Jews.

yes - you're right! i just never thought of it quite in that way before.
actually non-jews have it a lot better than jews - follow 7 laws instead of 613!

[Muslim Knight]

So you should not be giving to charity etc etc outside of Ramzan? That is what I meant!

Have you ever read Islamic instructions anywhere NOT to be charitable outside of Ramadhan? If you do you can present it here in the forum and let's talk about it.

The Quran instructs us to be charitable at all times, but emphasis is given during Ramadhan for many reasons. Some are made known to us, through the narrations of our Prophet's sayings, some unknown because only Allah knows and those are the secrets He may wish to reveal upon or after the Day of Judgment.

It is in His Ultimate Wisdom, we trust and put faith in. That is what it means to become a Muslim, to submit to the will of Allah.

[AvarAllahNoor]

i dont see why some muslims say he was a muslim...this guru guy, he didnt contribute anything to islam he only caused confusion among men.

ow one more thing debating isnt gonna solve anything WE WILL see come Judgment Day. if you believe in it....

If you can only insult take you post elsewhere. How dare you refer to Guru Nanak as ''guru guy''

The only confused person here is you!

[AvarAllahNoor]

Have you ever read Islamic instructions anywhere NOT to be charitable outside of Ramadhan? If you do you can present it here in the forum and let's talk about it.

The Quran instructs us to be charitable at all times, but emphasis is given during Ramadhan for many reasons. Some are made known to us, through the narrations of our Prophet's sayings, some unknown because only Allah knows and those are the secrets He may wish to reveal upon or after the Day of Judgment.

It is in His Ultimate Wisdom, we trust and put faith in. That is what it means to become a Muslim, to submit to the will of Allah.

I was responding to the brother who has now cleared up his misnderstanding.

[DAWUD_adnan]

If you can only insult take you post elsewhere. How dare you refer to Guru Nanak as ''guru guy''

The only confused person here is you!

I'm sorry if i offended you.

islam(submission to the will of God) tell us not to dispute. For disputation willl not bring us anywhere. Asalamu(submission, peace, saftey) Aleykum( be upon you)

[AvarAllahNoor]

I'm sorry if i offended you.

islam(submission to the will of God) tell us not to dispute. For disputation willl not bring us anywhere. Asalamu(submission, peace, saftey) Aleykum( be upon you)

No problem brother! - We should still conduct respect regardless of what faith we follow! - :happy:

[AvarAllahNoor]

Any questions? We seem to get many in other threads, Now i've created one for the sole purpose of correcting you, and nobody wants to ask - Ironic eh! :-D

[One Man Army]

think the sames happend with the other posts, looks like all questions have been answered with Guru Sahibs kirpa!

[PanthKhalsaRaaj]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

(Pure Ones Belong To God, Victory To God)

Let's clear this up once and for all.....

Now many times on other threads that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sikh Prophet/Avtaar is/was muslim!

Many people think that Sikhism is a sect of Islam


God sent Guru Nanak Dev Ji to the this world in order to enlighten Hindus and Muslims that they are merely fighting with each other trying to prove that their religion is superior. Guru Nanak Dev Ji preached that one does not have to be in a certain religion to meet God. It does not matter which religion one belongs to, as long as one performs true worship and meditation, he or she is capable of meeting with God. As proclaimed by God, Guru Nanak Dev Ji introduced a true immaculate way in order to attain salvation and be one with God. Whoever followed the way of Guru Nanak Dev Ji was known as Sikh. Many Hindus and Muslims joined Guru Nanak Dev Ji and became his follower. Sikhism is an independent way to meet God, which does not derive any ritual from either Hinduism or Islam, however there are some similarities in the rituals and beliefs which are clarified below. Sikhism is an individual faith established by God through Sikh Gurus and it is completely wrong to consider Sikhism as a part or combination of either Hinduism or Islam.

Guru Nanak considers himself neither Hindu nor Muslim. He did not follow Hindu rituals and nor did he join Islamic law. As commanded by God, Guru Nanak introduced a true faith, whose sole purpose is the love towards God. Guru Nanak Dev Ji denounced the superstitions followed by Hindu and Muslims and told them to worship God instead of considering their religion superior.


Following are the reasons how Sikhism is different

1. Muslims believe in polygamy and they even marry their cousins. By Islamic law Muslims can have up to four wives. Guru Nanak Dev Ji completely denounced these activities and instructed to be wedded to one person only.

2. Muslims indulge in animal sacrifices and Guru Nanak told them that this would not bring any good. Killing God’s creations in the Name of God is totally ironic. [ More ... ]


3. Muslims makes fast and consider the month of Ramadan holy. Sikhism instructs that making your body suffer will not help you to meet God. Sikhism tells that meditation of God is above all.

4. Muslims cut their hair. Sikhs however do not cut their hair as a respect towards God and live the way God made us.

5. Guru Nanak Dev Ji instructed to focus on meditation of God instead of glorifying a religion. To the Muslims Guru Nanak says, “The Muslims praise the Islamic law; they read and reflect upon it but God’s bound servants are those who bind themselves to see God” (Guru Granth Sahib, 465).


It is completely ridiculous to consider Sikhism a sect of any other religion. Just like you wouldn’t consider Christianity a sect of Buddhism, you should not consider Sikhism a sect of either Islam or Hinduism or a combination of both.


Guru Gobind Singh Ji (Tenth Sikh Prophet/Avtaar) said the following

''Bichatra Natak...he calls Muhammad MahaDeen..meaning Maha = Great..Deen = Religion''

This is respect, and nothing more. Jesus is revered in Islam, does that make you Christians? No. So hence forth stop concocting things up.

If you have any questions about Guru Nanak Dev Ji, please ask them here and will answer to the best of my abilty!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

(Pure Ones Belong To God, Victory To God)

Excellent post singh :D

[جوري]

lol.. I love how you guys write posts only to congratulate each other on what you have written. For what it is worth.. my best friend is Sikh and she for one thing dedicates at least two days in Ramadan to fast with me.. albeit it on the weekend and she gets to choose the restaurant where we break our fast...
She is not a vegetarian!.. and she is alot less sarcastic and more human than I have seen from your posts here. Please respect that this is an Islamic forum... By the way if I wanted to convert her I had nearly an entire decade to do so.. So I really don't understand what it is about Islam and Muslims that frightens you so... why don't you just live and let live?

[PanthKhalsaRaaj]

lol.. I love how you guys write posts only to congratulate each other on what you have written. For what it is worth.. my best friend is Sikh and she for one thing dedicates at least two days in Ramadan to fast with me.. albeit it on the weekend and she gets to choose the restaurant where we break our fast...
She is not a vegetarian!.. and she is alot less sarcastic and more human than I have seen from your posts here. Please respect that this is an Islamic forum... By the way if I wanted to convert her I had nearly an entire decade to do so.. So I really don't understand what it is about Islam and Muslims that frightens you so... why don't you just live and let live?

I am sorry but what has ur friend got to do with anything?
and well im sorry maybe ur friend claims to be a sikh but according to our code of conduct someone who eats meat or fasts cannot be called a sikh.
Ok thats great u havent tried any conversion tactics :) however there are alot of people that wud. In england for example the extremist HUT organisation targets young sikh girls and drug them and take photos of them in unidignifed positions while they are drugged and then threaten to show parents unless they convert. There have been countless cases of this.
And btw, we arent scared, dont you worry, we are the KHALSA, we fear no body.

[جوري]

I am sorry but what has ur friend got to do with anything?
and well im sorry maybe ur friend claims to be a sikh but according to our code of conduct someone who eats meat or fasts cannot be called a sikh.
Ok thats great u havent tried any conversion tactics :) however there are alot of people that wud. In england for example the extremist HUT organisation targets young sikh girls and drug them and take photos of them in unidignifed positions while they are drugged and then threaten to show parents unless they convert. There have been countless cases of this.
And btw, we arent scared, dont you worry, we are the KHALSA, we fear no body.

I am sorry but what does the HUT organization have to do with anything?

I am sure she couldn't care less what your thoughts are of her... she is lots more educated than you will ever be... I can just tell by the quality of your posts! besides--I thought really religious people don't judge least of which one of their own?

lol ---I love the "conversion tactics"... being a Muslim is a privilege not a coercion.

and lastly being a Khalsa is supposed to mean something to me? All I can say is good for you!

[PanthKhalsaRaaj]

I am sorry but what does the HUT organization have to do with anything?

I am sure she couldn't care less what your thoughts are of her... she is lots more educated than you will ever be... I can just tell by the quality of your posts! besides--I thought really religious people don't judge least of which one of their own?

lol ---I love the "conversion tactics"... being a Muslim is a privilege not a coercion.

and lastly being a Khalsa is supposed to mean something to me? All I can say is good for you!

i merely used the HUT organisation as an example, because you mentioned that you hadnt tried to convert your friend,and the general tone of your post was that members of the Islamic faith dont try to convert others, which i strongly disagree with.
Erm, i wasnt giving my thoughts on her, neither was i trying to insult her, i was just pointing out a rather big error in your post. Its like this, what if i started saying that i have a muslim friend, and the other day he was eating a sausage. Wouldnt you point out to me that this person wasnt a muslim, therefore any arguments i gave based on my friend were void in regards to the behaviour of a muslim.
And lady, lol, no need to turn this into a year 3 cussing match,

[- Qatada -]

Alright everyone calm down insha'Allaah. :) We just here to get an understanding, not to fight or anything.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Purestambrosial Sister....

It's nice you have a Sikh sister who is openminded. But would you yourself participate in something Sikh?

Sikhs have no problem with Guru Nanak being called hindu muslim buddhist etc etc. It's when it used to convert Sikhs into their own relgions, do you think that is correct?

Guru Nanak Dev Ji, is well respected by all. He was a very peacful man and full of love and devotion of all and Gods creation. - Muslims and Hindus upon his death wanted to do do as was custom in their own religions. Muslims bury and Hindus cremate, would they have done this if he was an imposter? or if he was devious or anything other than a humble servant of the Timeless Alah?? NO is my answer. I'd love to hear yours.

Gur Fateh Ji!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh - KhalsaDaRaj brother!

[جوري]

Purestambrosial Sister....

It's nice you have a Sikh sister who is openminded. But would you yourself participate in something Sikh?

Sikhs have no problem with Guru Nanak being called hindu muslim buddhist etc etc. It's when it used to convert Sikhs into their own relgions, do you think that is correct?

Guru Nanak Dev Ji, is well respected by all. He was a very peacful man and full of love and devotion of all and Gods creation. - Muslims and Hindus upon his death wanted to do do as was custom in their own religions. Muslims bury and Hindus cremate, would they have done this if he was an imposter? or if he was devious or anything other than a humble servant of the Timeless Alah?? NO is my answer. I'd love to hear yours.

Gur Fateh Ji!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh - KhalsaDaRaj brother!

I was asked kindly by a mod to not extend this beyond what it needs to be!

and to answer your Q would be Yes! I would participate with her in her holidays so long as there was nothing blatantly contradicting to my religion!... She had to go to your "Gdwar" sorry for spelling, I am not sure for which holiday. and I drove her and waited for her in the car until she was done and afterwards we celebrated by having I guess what you call "Laddo"? and other sweets.

I didn't feel any less Muslim... any more than she feels less Sikh when fasting with me. She does it as a sister in humanity. And I have certainly never invited her to do so.. she does it because she is a friend who wishes to share in my experience...

I really think it is a shame more people can't get along like we do!
To me she is grown as a person since I have known her... and I know for having shared a flat with her during grad school that she prays everyday...... so what to tell? sorry she would disappoint you as a sikh... but I am certainly glad she is the first impression I had of your folks!... Since I don't really have that great of an impression by some of the posts here!

I don't know if that answered your Q? I am not familiar with who did what to your guru... to be honest not sure why I should care at this rate? hate shouldn't influence your relationships!

[AvarAllahNoor]

Thanks for your reply.

I try to make my posts as amicable as possible on this forum! - I'm happy you're good friends. - Also your friendship is more of one that is more openly practiced in india amongst the Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus - Yes it is sad, we don't practice it here.

I myself have have had s muslim friend who went to the Gurdwara with me, and he sat down and just listned to the verses being read. He really Enjoyed it. I went to the mosque with him, and likewise enjoyed it. This to me is the Sikhism my Guru's (ALL, Even those that were tortured said we should forgive and not judge others by the actions of a few.) This speaks volumes to me.

We are all human and the verse uttered by Dhan Guru Gobind Singh ji Shah-E-Shenshah

'Manus ki jaat sabhai ek pehchanbo'

recognise and accept this fact, that humans are one race :-D

[AbuAbdallah]

Many people think that Sikhism is a sect of Islam

Sikhism was heavily influenced by Islam and Hinduism just given by the place where it originated.

[Muslim_4_Life]

..and to answer your Q would be Yes! I would participate with her in her holidays so long as there was nothing blatantly contradicting to my religion!... She had to go to your "Gdwar" sorry for spelling, I am not sure for which holiday. and I drove her and waited for her in the car until she was done and afterwards we celebrated by having I guess what you call "Laddo"? and other sweets.

I didn't feel any less Muslim... any more than she feels less Sikh when fasting with me. She does it as a sister in humanity. And I have certainly never invited her to do so.. she does it because she is a friend who wishes to share in my experience...

Ambrosia, celebrating the feast of another religion other than Islam's two Eid's is prohibited even if you find that you do not affilliate with any of the beliefs persé.

“The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came to Madeenah and the people had two days when they would play and have fun. He said, ‘What are these two days?’ They said, ‘We used to play and have fun on these days during the Jaahiliyyah. The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, ‘Allah has given you something better than them, the day of Adhaa and the day of Fitr.’” (Sunan Abi Dawood, 1134)

What follows is short treatise on this subject, May Allah (SWT) if He (SWT) so willed it t be beneficial to your understanding and that of others as well.

Source: Islam Q&A

Question

Can a Muslim celebrate a non-Muslim holiday like Thanksgiving?

Answer

Praise be to Allah.

Greeting the kuffar on Christmas and other religious holidays of theirs is haram, by consensus, as Ibn al-Qayyim, may Allah have mercy on him, said in Ahkam Ahl al-Dhimmah:

"Congratulating the kuffar on the rituals that belong only to them is haram by consensus, as is congratulating them on their festivals and fasts by saying ‘A happy festival to you’ or ‘May you enjoy your festival,’ and so on. If the one who says this has been saved from kufr, it is still forbidden. It is like congratulating someone for prostrating to the cross, or even worse than that. It is as great a sin as congratulating someone for drinking wine, or murdering someone, or having illicit sexual relations, and so on. Many of those who have no respect for their religion fall into this error; they do not realize the offensiveness of their actions. Whoever congratulates a person for his disobedience or bid’ah or kufr exposes himself to the wrath and anger of Allah."

Congratulating the kuffar on their religious festivals is haram to the extent described by Ibn al-Qayyim because it implies that one accepts or approves of their rituals of kufr, even if one would not accept those things for oneself. But the Muslim should not accept the rituals of kufr or congratulate anyone else for them, because Allah does not accept any of that at all, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

"If you disbelieve, then verily, Allah is not in need of you, He likes not disbelief for His slaves. And if you are grateful (by being believers), He is pleased therewith for you..." [al-Zumar 39:7]

"...This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion..." [al-Maa’idah 5:3]

So congratulating them is forbidden, whether they are one’s colleagues at work or otherwise.

If they greet us on the occasion of their festivals, we should not respond, because these are not our festivals, and because they are not festivals which are acceptable to Allah. These festivals are innovations in their religions, and even those which may have been prescribed formerly have been abrogated by the religion of Islam, with which Allah sent Muhammad to the whole of mankind. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

It is haram for a Muslim to accept invitations on such occasions, because this is worse than congratulating them as it implies taking part in their celebrations.

Similarly, Muslims are forbidden to imitate the kuffar by having parties on such occasions, or exchanging gifts, or giving out sweets or food, or taking time off work, etc., because the Prophet said: "Whoever imitates a people is one of them." Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in his book Iqtidaa’ al-siraat al-mustaqeem mukhaalifat ashaab al-jaheem:

"Imitating them in some of their festivals implies that one is pleased with their false beliefs and practices, and gives them the hope that they may have the opportunity to humiliate and mislead the weak."

Whoever does anything of this sort is a sinner, whether he does it out of politeness or to be friendly, or because he is too shy to refuse, or for whatever other reason, because this is hypocrisy in Islam, and because it makes the kuffar feel proud of their religion.

Allah is the One Whom we ask to make the Muslims feel proud of their religion, to help them adhere steadfastly to it, and to make them victorious over their enemies, for He is the Strong and Omnipotent.

(Majmoo’ah Fataawa wa Rasaa’il al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymin, 3/369)

[جوري]

I didn't seek a religion other than Islam!... I didn't take off from work! I didn't congratulate her since I am not certain until now exactly what she was celebrating?.. I spent the day with her on the account that she was away from her family, and it certainly isn't human to abandon a friend. and lastly she offered me desert from her country (little balls of sweets called lado) which I ate and we watched a movie (japanese Anime)... I am not sure what festivites you are talking about short of driving her to where she needed to be?

[Muslim_4_Life]

All you need to do is look at the text I quoted from your previous post, my post is a reaction to that. You clearly state that you would participate in her holidays. My response is to that, regardless of whether you find that it does not oppose islam. The evidence I have cited above clearly shows that it is prohibited. Further more, you telling me that you only drove her, or ate some sweets she brought you does not negate the implications within the context of your previous post.

[جوري]

yes I also said (provided it doesn't negate my religion). clearly eating her sweets and watching a movie with doesn't!

[Muslim_4_Life]

If you're even reading my posts to you, or are you hammering your point selectively. I would appreciate it if you were to consider what I'm telling you with sincerity, instead of excusing your way out of everything I'm showing you. Again:

The context of your post was that you said you would... celebrate her holidays. This in itself is opposing Islam, since in Islam we are not allowed to celebrate any other festivities except the two Eid's. I have provided you with sufficient evidence regarding this. If you have any objections to this, then be clear about it rather than ambiguously tell me that the criterea does not apply to the situation you sketched.

[جوري]

You have made your point... thank you!

[Muslim_4_Life]

That's more like it... you're most welcome!

[جوري]

of Questioner
Mu`adh - Bangladesh

Title
Celebrating holidays with One’s Non-Muslim Family

Question
As-Salam `alaykum. I am new Muslim and I am living with my Christian family in a non-Muslim society. My family is celebrating Christmas and I want to ask if it is wrong for me to attend their celebration.

Date
22/Dec/2005

Name of Mufti
Jamal Badawi, Ahmad Kutty

Topic
Ties of kinship



Answer



Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we earnestly implore Allah to increase your faith and guide you to the straight path.

There is nothing wrong, as far as Islam is concerned, that you share your family’s happiness in Christmas as long as you steer clear of what is prohibited in your religion (such as a table where alcohol or pork is served) and specifically religious rituals.



Responding to the question, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research and the Fiqh Council of North America, states the following:


Participating in the non-religious aspect of Christmas such as family reunion dinner or visitation is OK. Attempts should be made to avoid situations where alcoholic drinks are served on the same table. Kindness to parents and family without compromising one’s beliefs is an Islamic duty.

During socialization and whenever appropriate, one may share one’s thoughts [on religion] with them, preferably in answer to their questions or comments without being too argumentative.


Moreover, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, adds:


You are allowed to partake of their feasts and celebrations so long as you stay away from their specifically religious rituals, and so long as you are clear in your mind that Christmas has nothing to do with the original teaching of Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him).

While remaining steadfast to your beliefs about Jesus, you are allowed to join them in their feasts in order to reciprocate kindness with kindness. By doing so, you may even be helping them remove their misconceptions about Islam being a fanatical religion. So go ahead and participate in their feasts, and let them know the true image of Islam.

[Muslim_4_Life]

Ambrosia, the mufti's, scholars etc that you quote have no repute with the international muslim community. Also NO, scriptural evidence from the glorious Qur'an or the sunnah has been given. This is unexeptable by the standards of any muslim. I would implore on you to ones more consider the evidence I provided you with, which is detailled and with reputable source like the hadeeth which goes back to our beloved prophet Muhammed (SAW).

The word of any mufti, or scholar does not weigh an ounce if it is in opposition to the prophet Muhammed (SAW) or the Sahaba and the scholars of repute.

[AbuAbdallah]

Ambrosia, the mufti's, scholars etc that you quote have no repute with the international muslim community. Also NO, scriptural evidence from the glorious Qur'an or the sunnah has been given. This is unexeptable by the standards of any muslim. I would implore on you to ones more consider the evidence I provided you with, which is detailled and with reputable source like the hadeeth which goes back to our beloved prophet Muhammed (SAW).

The word of any mufti, or scholar does not weigh an ounce if it is in opposition to the prophet Muhammed (SAW) or the Sahaba and the scholars of repute.

I was going to say the same thing. There is a huge difference from the first and second fatwa, with the first using proofs, as opposed to the second.

[north_malaysian]

of Questioner
Mu`adh - Bangladesh

Title
Celebrating holidays with One’s Non-Muslim Family

Question
As-Salam `alaykum. I am new Muslim and I am living with my Christian family in a non-Muslim society. My family is celebrating Christmas and I want to ask if it is wrong for me to attend their celebration.

Date
22/Dec/2005

Name of Mufti
Jamal Badawi, Ahmad Kutty

Topic
Ties of kinship



Answer



Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we earnestly implore Allah to increase your faith and guide you to the straight path.

There is nothing wrong, as far as Islam is concerned, that you share your family’s happiness in Christmas as long as you steer clear of what is prohibited in your religion (such as a table where alcohol or pork is served) and specifically religious rituals.



Responding to the question, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research and the Fiqh Council of North America, states the following:


Participating in the non-religious aspect of Christmas such as family reunion dinner or visitation is OK. Attempts should be made to avoid situations where alcoholic drinks are served on the same table. Kindness to parents and family without compromising one’s beliefs is an Islamic duty.

During socialization and whenever appropriate, one may share one’s thoughts [on religion] with them, preferably in answer to their questions or comments without being too argumentative.


Moreover, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, adds:


You are allowed to partake of their feasts and celebrations so long as you stay away from their specifically religious rituals, and so long as you are clear in your mind that Christmas has nothing to do with the original teaching of Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him).

While remaining steadfast to your beliefs about Jesus, you are allowed to join them in their feasts in order to reciprocate kindness with kindness. By doing so, you may even be helping them remove their misconceptions about Islam being a fanatical religion. So go ahead and participate in their feasts, and let them know the true image of Islam.

Fatwa from Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi (former president of ISNA)

http://www.al-ahkam.net/home/index.p...&view=previous

[Muslim_4_Life]

North_Mayalsian Eventhough the fatwa you quoted from the former head of ISNA is more in the lines of the truth it is still a divergence because he calls for the acceptance of gifts and the wishing of happy holidays to the unbelievers during their festivals. This shows the incompetence of at least some people at ISNA, not in the least of which the former head of this organisation. It is these types of organisations who issue baseless fatwa's left and right that end up misguiding many seekers of truth. We should all guard from this. We all know that the U.S is a heavily censured country, their freedom is defined by their way of life hence it is their definition of this freedom that prevails not the islamic notion of it. Any critical voice of their inherent ways is therefore fought against, politically, financially, and judicially. The ISNA may well be an example of a tamed entity which can only operate under the rules and regulations imposed on it from the kufar legislator. As of yey, I'm however just describing a scenario which this type of practise is indicative of but Allah (SWT) knows better what description befits the people at ISNA. I'd like to think that this type of carelessness is not on purpose or occasional but I cannot do either as this seems to be the trademark so to speak of this organisation. And Allah (SWT) knows best.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Sikhism was heavily influenced by Islam and Hinduism just given by the place where it originated.

Does that mean Islam was influenced by pagans and other various tribes and religions present in Muhammeds time?

The only Influence Sikhism got was from God alone, he influenced and instructed, so your theory is flawed.

[AvarAllahNoor]

PurestAmbrosial, I think you're in understanding of your own religion than some people who are posting on here. - You're just being friendly to your best friend and participating (without it afecting your own beliefs of Islam) and vice versa.

I think this is harmony and would have been enciuraged by Mohammed Sahib!

[AHMED_GUREY]

I always thought Hindu's and Sikhs were practicing the same religion, but i guess i was wrong. The Sikhs next to my Uncle's store are very kind people maybe i should approach them some time and find out a bit more about their culture and religion.

[AvarAllahNoor]

I always thought Hindu's and Sikhs were practicing the same religion, but i guess i was wrong. The Sikhs next to my Uncle's store are very kind people maybe i should approach them some time and find out a bit more about their culture and religion.

All it takes a bit of a read brother. We sadly live in the same country as Hindus but our beliefs are worlds apart.:statisfie

[AHMED_GUREY]

All it takes a bit of a read brother. We sadly live in the same country as Hindus but our beliefs are worlds apart.:statisfie

I did find a good site about Sikhism and Sikh culture and i will look it up:)

[- Qatada -]

Does that mean Islam was influenced by pagans and other various tribes and religions present in Muhammeds time?

The only Influence Sikhism got was from God alone, he influenced and instructed, so your theory is flawed.

The pagan tribes and their way of life was actually influenced by islaam, because their forefather was Isma'eel son of Ibraheem - the two Prophets. So the arabs really followed their religion and Makkah was established on their faith, however they made innovations [bid'ah - newly invented matters] into that faith by introducing stone idols as intercessors between them and Allaah, and claiming that they are superior because they are the descendants of these Pious people. :)

Muhammad (peace be upon him) called back to the religion of Ibraheem [Abraham] (peace be upon him) and reformed the ways of the arabs .



Peace.

[AbuAbdallah]

Does that mean Islam was influenced by pagans and other various tribes and religions present in Muhammeds time?

The only Influence Sikhism got was from God alone, he influenced and instructed, so your theory is flawed.

While Islam abolished many actions of the pagans, Sikhism imitates many actions of the Muslims and Hindus.

[cali dude]

While Islam abolished many actions of the pagans, Sikhism imitates many actions of the Muslims and Hindus.

You are mistaken. Sikhi doesn't imitate anyone.

[AvarAllahNoor]

While Islam abolished many actions of the pagans, Sikhism imitates many actions of the Muslims and Hindus.

Compose a list of these actions! - Let us compare, you're making comments without any facts!

[AbuAbdallah]

Compose a list of these actions! - Let us compare, you're making comments without any facts!

If I am wrong then please correct me, as I know very little about Sikhs.

[strider]

If I am wrong then please correct me, as I know very little about Sikhs.

Then how are you in a position to make such a remark, bro? Please do take a moment to think before posting. :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

If I am wrong then please correct me, as I know very little about Sikhs.

You're the one making the claim, so I expect you to find me soemthing that you belieive are the actions of hindus and muslims, which sikhs ''copy'' :D

[AbuAbdallah]

You're the one making the claim, so I expect you to find me soemthing that you belieive are the actions of hindus and muslims, which sikhs ''copy''

Okay, for example
"There exists but one God, who is called The True, The Creator, Free from fear and hate, Immortal, Not begotten, Self-Existent, Great and Compassionate."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib, volume 1 Japuji)
To Muslims this should sound very familiar.

"Dukh mein sumirana sabh karein
Sukh mein karein na koya
Jo sukh mein sumirana karein
To dukh kaye hoye?"

"In times of trouble, God is remembered by all But none remembers Him during peace and happiness. If God is remembered in good times of happiness Why should trouble occur?"
(Sant Kabir)

Compare this with the following verse of the Qur’an: "When some trouble toucheth man, He crieth unto his Lord, Turning to Him in repentance: But when He bestoweth A favour upon him As from Himself, (Man) doth forget what he cried And prayed for before, And he doth set up Rivals unto Allah." [Al-Qur’an 39:8]

Let me repeat that I know very little about Sikhs.

[cali dude]

Okay, for example
"There exists but one God, who is called The True, The Creator, Free from fear and hate, Immortal, Not begotten, Self-Existent, Great and Compassionate."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib, volume 1 Japuji)
To Muslims this should sound very familiar.

"Dukh mein sumirana sabh karein
Sukh mein karein na koya
Jo sukh mein sumirana karein
To dukh kaye hoye?"

"In times of trouble, God is remembered by all But none remembers Him during peace and happiness. If God is remembered in good times of happiness Why should trouble occur?"
(Sant Kabir)

Compare this with the following verse of the Qur’an: "When some trouble toucheth man, He crieth unto his Lord, Turning to Him in repentance: But when He bestoweth A favour upon him As from Himself, (Man) doth forget what he cried And prayed for before, And he doth set up Rivals unto Allah." [Al-Qur’an 39:8]

Let me repeat that I know very little about Sikhs.

So what are you saying? Are you saying that even though this is true, saints and gurus shouldn't have said so?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Okay, for example
"There exists but one God, who is called The True, The Creator, Free from fear and hate, Immortal, Not begotten, Self-Existent, Great and Compassionate."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib, volume 1 Japuji)
To Muslims this should sound very familiar.

".

LMAO - I've never laughed so much in my entire life on these boards!! - THIS IS NOT COPYING - It may have escaped your mind THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!!!!!

Perhaps they should have thought that they would have been accused of 'copying' So, just for arguments sake lets change it shall we....

From now one we'll say we have two Gods.... :rollseyes

[AvarAllahNoor]

Okay, for example
"There exists but one God, who is called The True, The Creator, Free from fear and hate, Immortal, Not begotten, Self-Existent, Great and Compassionate."
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib, volume 1 Japuji)
To Muslims this should sound very familiar.

"Dukh mein sumirana sabh karein
Sukh mein karein na koya
Jo sukh mein sumirana karein
To dukh kaye hoye?"

"In times of trouble, God is remembered by all But none remembers Him during peace and happiness. If God is remembered in good times of happiness Why should trouble occur?"
(Sant Kabir)

Compare this with the following verse of the Qur’an: "When some trouble toucheth man, He crieth unto his Lord, Turning to Him in repentance: But when He bestoweth A favour upon him As from Himself, (Man) doth forget what he cried And prayed for before, And he doth set up Rivals unto Allah." [Al-Qur’an 39:8]

Let me repeat that I know very little about Sikhs.

I could say you've taken verses similar from the Bible....

[gkk]

dear 'avarallahnoor', please pm me with your email address. i am trying to contact you about something important but i am not able to pm you myself because i am a new member.

thank you.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Dear 'avarallahnoor', please pm me with your email address. i am trying to contact you about something important but i am not able to pm you myself because i am a new member.

Thank You.

Just seen this Khalsa ji, and I have complied.:D

[cali dude]

So now was Guru Nanak Dev Ji Muslim, Hindu or none?

Well let me explain how I understand.

Since he was a spiritual person, he was none as spirituality isn't confined to any religion or society or culture.

But yes if you look at this whole situation as Muslims possessing certain characteristics and Hindus possessing certain characteristics, he was the best Muslim or best Pandit you could ever find. He possessed all positive characteristics a Muslim or a Pandit could ever possess and plus a whole lot more. Positive characteristics refer to the characteristics that bring you closer to God and negative are the ones that take you away from God.

[DAWUD_adnan]

So now was Guru Nanak Dev Ji Muslim, Hindu or none?

Well let me explain how I understand.

Since he was a spiritual person, he was none as spirituality isn't confined to any religion or society or culture.

But yes if you look at this whole situation as Muslims possessing certain characteristics and Hindus possessing certain characteristics, he was the best Muslim or best Pandit you could ever find. He possessed all positive characteristics a Muslim or a Pandit could ever possess and plus a whole lot more. Positive characteristics refer to the characteristics that bring you closer to God and negative are the ones that take you away from God.

May, i ask you to please not compare your religion with Islam, as you would clearly have no profit of it. Unless sikhi is about Islam, please don't. Islam was the first and only way to live life. If you are not Muslim you have chosen your side,peace be with you. But please do not, make comments which may come over ignorant.
He could never be a muslim for he believeth not that Muhammad(SAW) or any of the other prophets are True.

P.Swhat is your book called?(sorry, dont know)

if it is the word of God than why is not god saying I and Me, why is it someone else ? unless off course, this could not be the word of God, it is so than it is easy to create, i could produce a similar EXAMPLE;

God is He Who Created all, everything and all is His Creation. He is the First The Last, all shall return to Him, The All-Knowing, The Bestower of Love and Mercy. He forgets not while many forget Him, yet He turns to them in Mercy, for He is God the One God the Omnipotent.

see how easy that was?

We as Muslim(Bowing to the will of Allah) shouldnt be debating about this it will lead us to nowhere,
All Praise and Glory is to Allah(The One and Only True God). And Peace be upon the Messengers. Ameen

[AvarAllahNoor]

David, You lot are claiming Guru Nanak to be muslim, not us, so chiil. If you don't like the thread refrain from posting...

[cali dude]

May, i ask you to please not compare your religion with Islam, as you would clearly have no profit of it. Unless sikhi is about Islam, please don't. Islam was the first and only way to live life. If you are not Muslim you have chosen your side,peace be with you. But please do not, make comments which may come over ignorant.
He could never be a muslim for he believeth not that Muhammad(SAW) or any of the other prophets are True.

P.Swhat is your book called?(sorry, dont know)

if it is the word of God than why is not god saying I and Me, why is it someone else ? unless off course, this could not be the word of God, it is so than it is easy to create, i could produce a similar EXAMPLE;

God is He Who Created all, everything and all is His Creation. He is the First The Last, all shall return to Him, The All-Knowing, The Bestower of Love and Mercy. He forgets not while many forget Him, yet He turns to them in Mercy, for He is God the One God the Omnipotent.

see how easy that was?

We as Muslim(Bowing to the will of Allah) shouldnt be debating about this it will lead us to nowhere,
All Praise and Glory is to Allah(The One and Only True God). And Peace be upon the Messengers. Ameen

I am not comparing my religion to yours but this is simply a message for those who keep calling our guru Muslim.

Do you understand what I mean by characteristic. It's like someone you would have said that a Muslim does not lie for example. That's a characteristic a Muslim must possess. So what I am saying is that a Sikh possesses all positive characteristics a Muslim or Pandit could ever possess and plus a whole lot more. It has nothing to do with accepting Mohammad as prophet. A Sikh guru wouldn't need to accept a prophet.

[AvarAllahNoor]

A little summary so Non Sikhs can fathom the concept of the Ten Sikh Gurus.

“GOD IS ONE IN FORMLESS FORM. GOD SHEDS HIS LIGHT; HIS LIGHT IS THE CAUSE OF ALL CREATION. GOD ABIDES IN EACH OF THE CREATURES EQUALLY.

In the family of Baidis was born Nanak Rai, who gave delight to all the disciples and helped them everywhere. 4.

He initiated a New Approach to DHARMA, and showed the Path of Truth to all the Saints. Whosoever joined his way, they were never tortured by sins. 5.
Those who adopted his ways, all their sins were removed. Sorrows and sufferings of hunger never torment them, and they are never caught in the web of delusions and the cycle of time. 6.

NANAK ASSUMED THE BODY OF ANGAD and spread Dharma in this world. Then he was named Amar Das , as if a lamp was lit by the lamp.7.
When the time of BOON came, Ram Das became the Guru. Granting him the OLD BOON, Guru Amar Das left for his heavenly abode. 8.

Sri Nanak was accepted as Angad Guru, and Angad was identified as Guru Amar Das. Guru Amar Das was called (Guru) Ram Das. This mystery was understood by the saints, but the stupid ones could not follow. 9.
Ordinary persons considered them in different forms but some rare ones understood them as one. Those who knew them as one attained the high Spiritual attainment, but without understanding the mysteries, nothing can be attained. 10.

When Guru Ram Das merged in the Lord, he made Arjan as his successor Guru. When Arjan Dev went to the Abode of the Lord, Hargobind was established in his place. 11.
When (Guru) Hargobind merged in the Supreme Reality, (Guru) Har Rai sat in his place. His son Hari Krishan was established as Guru, from whom Teg Bahadur was made the Guru. 12.”

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee, out of humility he did not mention his own name that after Guru Tegh Bhadur he was made the successor Guru. Similarly, he also authored the “Ardasa”, in Composition, Chandi di Var and did not mention his own name. The Sikhs themselves added his name after mentioning the name of Guru Tegh Bahadur. No one has ever raised objection that Guru Gobind Singh was not Tenth Guru Nanak. However, in Chapter 8 of Bichiter Natak, the Guru stated that after Martyrdom of his revered father, Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur, he was established as the Guru to lead. “Raj Kaj Ham par jab aayo, Jatha sakat tab Dharam Chalio.”

[- Qatada -]

How can God be formless? Don't you know that God has Hands, a face etc? Don't you know that God is All Aware?


God, there is none like Him - but He is the All-Hearing, All Seeing. :) So we don't know how He looks like, yet He is not like the creation as there is none like Him.

[AvarAllahNoor]

How can God be formless? Don't you know that God has Hands, a face etc? Don't you know that God is All Aware?


God, there is none like Him - but He is the All-Hearing, All Seeing. :) So we don't know how He looks like, yet He is not like the creation as there is none like Him.

Yes we know this. - So I'm not sure what you're point is? - This is just one of the statements made before the explanation of how the Gurus were individuals yet the same Light of Guru Nanak was passed onto nine others.

[- Qatada -]

“GOD IS ONE IN FORMLESS FORM. GOD SHEDS HIS LIGHT; HIS LIGHT IS THE CAUSE OF ALL CREATION. GOD ABIDES IN EACH OF THE CREATURES EQUALLY.

I was saying that God has Hands, a face etc. Yet there aren't like the creations as there is none like Him.

We don't believe in incarnation, because if someone was to say that God is within the creation - then trust me, this creation has many weaknesses and faults to it - i.e. it depends upon food and water etc. And God isn't in need of any of that. Rather He is Self-Sufficient. The creation will also die, whereas God does not die and He is the Ever-Living.

So to believe that God is within His creation is senseless, and is saying things about God which isn't true.

[AvarAllahNoor]

[/B]I was saying that God has Hands, a face etc. Yet there aren't like the creations as there is none like Him.

We don't believe in incarnation, because if someone was to say that God is within the creation - then trust me, this creation has many weaknesses and faults to it - i.e. it depends upon food and water etc. And God isn't in need of any of that. Rather He is Self-Sufficient. The creation will also die, whereas God does not die and He is the Ever-Living.

So to believe that God is within His creation is senseless, and is saying things about God which isn't true.

Well we believe Gods light is within all, so your opnion is not what matters. But yes I guess it can be respected. :)

But the rest is Sikh belief too.

[- Qatada -]

But isn't that disrespect to God? To actually claim that He is within the creation? I don't like saying this but even a child might ask - does God go to the bathroom etc? How would a person respond to that? Isn't that saying things about God of which doesn't befit His Majesty?

[NoName55]

............Sikhism imitates many actions of the Muslims and Hindus.

pehaps this is of some use

Date_06/10/00________________________________________________
After over a decade, the Sikh religio-political scenario is torrid again. This time it's the Hindu-Sikh divide caused by the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) - the fundamentalist Hindu faction of the ruling Baharatiya Jananta Party (BJP) - which is trying to press the fact that Sikhs are actually Hindus.
RSS activists proclaim that since Sikhismcame into existence as the sword arm of Hindus against the Muslim invaders, and since such a situation no longer exists, the community should return to the Hindu fold. In fact a group of RSS leaders want to assimilate the Sikh community into the fold of Hinduism and disperse its religious identity.

Sikh religious groups and leaders are conducting meetings in Gurdwaras for educating the Sikh community against this political propaganda that Sikhs are Hindus. Sikh religious institutions like the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC) are strongly opposing the RSS' attempts to integrate them into the Hindu fold. June 6, 2000 was observed as a holocaust day and a day against persecution of minorities.
To counter the "evil design" of the RSS, a Sikh youth leader reportedly went so far as to propose serving beef in the Gurdwara langar. Such an anti-Hindu move is not anti-Sikh, since Sikhism evidently does not proscribe beef. Furthermore, agitating organisations in Punjab are pressing the local civic bodies for granting separate cremation grounds for Sikhs.
Sikhs Aren't Hindus!
Sikhs maintain that Sikhism is not an offshoot of Hinduism and was not created as the sword arm of Hindus against Muslim invaders, but as a distinct community to fight 'oppression' in whatever form it existed. So, the Sikhs have an identity of their own vis-à-vis the religious and cultural content and form of Hinduism.
Gurtej Singh of the Institute for Sikh Studies told The Hindustan Times: "The thrust of RSS' campaign is that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism - and even today remains its sword arm. They quote the Dasamgranth for this purpose, ignoring the fact that it still remains a matter of debate whether or not Guru Gobind Singh wrote the entire text. The Guru Granth Sahib mentions Ram, but it also talks of Rahim, Karim and Allah…" So, some leaders are planning to discard a portion of the Dasamgranth, "that which allows the RSS to inject confusion among the Sikhs".
Sikhs Are Hindus!
Hindus say that the Sikh guru Gobind Singh gave his followers a distinct militant identity by ordering them to wear the five Ks - kesh, kangha, kara, kachcha and kirpan - to protect Hindus from the tyranny of the Mughals. Thus Hindus and Sikhs are one and the same - socially as well as religiously. While this is a moot point, it's hard to ignore the similarities between Hinduism and Sikhism.
Similarities between Sikhs and Hindus are evident in practices and rituals of the Sikh Gurus. The Sikhs celebrate Diwali, the Hindu festival of lights. The surname 'Singh' is also found among the Rajputs, a martial Hindu race. It is argued that the Sikh Kirpan or dagger has been adopted from the martial tradition of the Rajputs carrying the Katar. It's also evident that the turban is a common headdress of the Indians and is not exclusively Sikh, and the concept of uncut hair was introduced by the Tenth Guru and not before.
Historians say that Sikhs and Hindus have intermarried since Guru Nanak's time. The Hindus accepted the marriages because Sikhism was considered a part of Hinduism, and marriages for Sikhs were performed by the Hindu priests, until the beginning of the 20th century. All these show that the essence of Sikhism is closely related to Hinduism. This is however, not to suggest that Sikhism and Hinduism are one and the same religion, or Sikhism is not distinct from Hinduism.


Encouraging Separatism and Disharmony
Evidently there are no irreconcilable differences between Hindus and Sikhs. But such propaganda and politicizing religions can actually go beyond a mere revival of the trite debate: Are Sikhs Hindus? History has proved that such initiatives only manage to elicit a dramatic assertion from the target community.
But emphasizing the Hindu-ness of Sikhs and diluting the separate identity of the community is actually demarcating religious boundaries, which encourages secessionism and can reinforce the Sikh belief that they are a different nation. If the RSS persists with its campaign of assimilating the Sikhs into the Hindu mainstream, feel observers, Sikh hard-liners will be back in business. Indeed, the RSS call to Hindus to take to Sikhism will only accentuate a revival of Sikh fundamentalism.

:w:

[cali dude]

But isn't that disrespect to God? To actually claim that He is within the creation? I don't like saying this but even a child might ask - does God go to the bathroom etc? How would a person respond to that? Isn't that saying things about God of which doesn't befit His Majesty?

You are saying this because your perception of God is different than us.

You actually didn't know how God revealed Himself to Mohammad. You said it was through Angel Gabriel. Now did the angel use some kind of vehicle (like car or scooter) to come to Mohammad?

You should also think about how your soul (with your body?) gets to the paradise...

[- Qatada -]

You are saying this because your perception of God is different than us.

You actually didn't know how God revealed Himself to Mohammad. You said it was through Angel Gabriel. Now did the angel use some kind of vehicle (like car or scooter) to come to Mohammad?

You should also think about how your soul (with your body?) gets to the paradise...

Yeah i've got a different perception, one that makes sense. Maybe you can answer my question and then we can move forward to answer your questions - how would you respond to someone who asks that form of question? :)

[cali dude]

Yeah i've got a different perception, one that makes sense. Maybe you can answer my question and then we can move forward to answer your questions - how would you respond to someone who asks that form of question? :)

We know the answer and we don't need to waste our time trying to convince who has entirely different perception. If you want to know more of what Sikhism says, you should go to a Sikh website. I recommend sikhnet.com.

[cali dude]

pehaps this is of some use
:w:

Instead of trying to waste this life trying to figure out who is who, go do what you are supposed to do, i.e. worship God and maybe you will be awarded...:)

[NoName55]

What do Sikhs Believe?

The Sikh religion is regarded by many scholars as a syncretic religious system which borrows heavily from Hinduism and Sufism. Other scholars treat it as a branch of Hinduism's bhakti mystical devotion, as an attempt to reform Hinduism or as an attempt to harmonize Hinduism and Islam which ended up becoming its own religious tradition.

God: Sikhs follow a strict monotheistic faith in an eternal, creator god within which there exists two distinct natures. One nature is physical and encompasses perfect attributes; this is the nature which Sikhs can understand and meditate upon.

The second nature, non-physical, is too complex for the human mind to understand. Among Sikhs, God is generally called Sat Guru, which means the "supreme Guru," or "supreme teacher." Other names include Akal Purukh and Vahiguru. This second nature is so abstract and mystical that Sikhism sometimes borders on being pantheistic rather than simply monotheistic.
God is believed to govern the universe absolutely - this divine order is called hukam. According to Sikh doctrine, absolutely nothing is exempt from God's will. The divine order of the universe is based upon two principles: justice (nian) and grace (nadar).

Devotion: The goal for Sikhs is to meditate upon God and avoid being caught up in worldly distractions. The "true nature" of each human being is a divine essence of "pure light," but worldly affairs cover this up. The worldly layers of weakness and evil all encouraged by self-centeredness (haumai), need to be taken away over time to reveal our true nature.
This is accomplished partly through meditation on God but also through practicing the principle of universal love for everyone. The ultimate point to this, absorption within God, may take many lifetimes. Sikhs accept the Hindu doctrine of samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth, which is ordered by karma, the accumulation of one's good and bad deeds.
An unregenerate person is thought of as being dominated by self-interest and, therefore, remains immersed in illusion (maya) - this, in turn, results in bad karma. God of course wants us to escape maya and achieve enlightenment (nirvana) by learning to understand the nature of the universe.

Because we can't entirely accomplish this on our own, God is believed to help by manifesting his grace as a holy word, attainable through understanding and recitation of God's name (nam). In Sikhism, the role of the guru, who is the manifestation of God in the world, is to teach us the method of devotion through the Guru Granth Sahib and the community of the faithful. Both the guru and the Guru Granth Sahib are thus coexistent with the divine and play a necessary part in the salvation of the world.

Prayers: Every Sikh is expected to recite three daily prayers: Japji Sahib ("meditation") which is usually accompanied by some hymns in the morning, Rahiras in the evening and Sohila, a prayer of thanksgiving which is said just before going to bed. On the first day of each month and on holy days, other special prayers are recited. The tradition of reciting three daily prayers was first instituted by Guru Nanak and the text of the Japji Sahib was written by Nanak.

Texts: The primary religious text of Sikhs is the Guru Granth, (also known as the Adi Granth) first composed by the fifth Guru in 1604 out of material written by the previous four. It would be finished by the tenth and final human Guru, attaining its present form.

Equality: One consequence of the ideal of universal love is that, in principle at least, there is no gender-based discrimination among Sikhs. Men are not valued more highly than women and women are not kept from religious or political leadership positions. All Sikhs are bais, or "brethern" of each other. The ideal of universal love also puts Sikhism at odds with the traditional caste system of Hinduism because Sikhs do not regard a person's family as having any bearing on their social or religious value.

The only group within the Sikh religion which might be said to stand in especially high regard are the Khalsa, orthodox Sikhs who have taken an oath to live their lives as examples of Sikh faith and ideals.

:w:

[NoName55]

Instead of trying to waste this life trying to figure out who is who, go do what you are supposed to do, i.e. worship God and maybe you will be awarded...:)

Thank you very much,but I have time for both :)

[cali dude]

Noname55,

dekh farida jotiya dadhi hoyi bhuur...aggo nedha aaya pichha rihya duur..

[NoName55]

Noname55,

dekh farida jotiya dadhi hoyi bhuur...aggo nedha aaya pichha rihya duur..

poetry of Baba Farid

[cali dude]

yeah he is warning that time to leave this world is coming close, so try doing something before it's too late...

[AvarAllahNoor]

poetry of Baba Farid

Ahkhi it's Shabad

[AvarAllahNoor]

In the very beginning of human life there were many religions , all tribal, everyone started to beleive in sun , stones , water etc, as God, then when it was all at its height maybe then JUDAISM was born(i dont know much about its origin) ...people started worshipping the real God...

but after many centuries... when people again lost faith..started idol worship...became cruel..started thinking that their religion should overtake others...CHRISTIANITY was born...again spreAding the SAME message ... to different people in a different way.......by sending a prophet......

everything was well.........then after some time people again lost faith in God....idol worship again started....people lost their senses and forcefully fought for superiority of their religions ..... thus God sent another prophet... and ISLAM...begin......

on the other hand in east...i.e. India.. when Hinduism was too much deeply affected by idol worship... BUDDHISM and after that JAINISM started....

Islam also taught the same message in different manner to different people of those time... and it was immensly successful...

all went well..but when islam and christianity both took forceful actions to convert people..known as Holy wars..i guess... and when there was lot of paakhand and rituals..

God sent another prophet..and SIKHISM started and spread the same message again in a different manner to the people.

[- Qatada -]

So much misconceptions ^ :)


We know that the first person to be created was Adam and his wife Hawwa [Eve.] They were muslims as they submitted to their Creator - Allaah, and islaam means submission. :)


All the prophets called to the worship of Allaah Alone without associating partners with Him in that worship. Whether these other partners are idols, humans [i.e. saints], or even philosophies etc.

Those who prefer the life of this world instead of the Hereafter, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah (i.e.Islam) and seek crookedness therein - They are far astray.

And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

And indeed We sent Musa (Moses) with Our Ayat (signs, proofs, and evidences) (saying): "Bring out your people from darkness into light, and make them remember the annals of Allah. Truly, therein are evidences, proofs and signs for every patient, thankful (person)."

And (remember) when Musa (Moses) said to his people: "Call to mind Allah's Favour to you, when He delivered you from Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) people who were afflicting you with horrible torment, and were slaughtering your sons and letting your women alive, and in it was a tremendous trial from your Lord."

And (remember) when your Lord proclaimed: "If you give thanks (by accepting Faith and worshipping none but Allah), I will give you more (of My Blessings), but if you are thankless (i.e. disbelievers), verily! My Punishment is indeed severe."

And Musa (Moses) said: "If you disbelieve, you and all on earth together, then verily! Allah is Rich (Free of all wants), Owner of all Praise."

Has not the news reached you, of those before you, the people of Nuh (Noah), and 'Ad, and Thamud? And those after them? None knows them but Allah. To them came their Messengers with clear proofs, but they put their hands in their mouths (biting them from anger) and said: "Verily, we disbelieve in that with which you have been sent, and we are really in grave doubt as to that to which you invite us (i.e. Islamic Monotheism)."

Their Messengers said: "What! Can there be a doubt about Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? He calls you (to Monotheism and to be obedient to Allah) that He may forgive you of your sins and give you respite for a term appointed." They said: "You are no more than human beings like us! You wish to turn us away from what our fathers used to worship. Then bring us a clear authority i.e. a clear proof of what you say)."

Their Messengers said to them: "We are no more than human beings like you, but Allah bestows His Grace to whom He wills of His slaves. It is not ours to bring you an authority (proof) except by the Permission of Allah. And in Allah (Alone) let the believers put their trust.

[Qur'an 14: 3-11]

There have been over 124000 prophets who have come to mankind, all calling to the worship of Allaah alone. This was the same message of Noah, Moses, Jesus son of Mary, Yahya (John the Baptist), Muhammad (peace be upon them all.)


The only reason why idol worship started was because after Adam (peace be upon him) - 10 generations later, the people started turning away from their submission to Allaah [i.e. islaam] and they started getting attatched to the world. So satan came to them and told them that he would create statues of these pious people so they may remember the good pious times. The people agreed.

Later as these people passed away, satan came to the people and said that your forefathers prayed to these pious people so they can pray on your behalf to Allaah. And this is exactly what associating partners with Allaah is, which is the worst sin a person can commit. And if one was to die in this state - they would die in a state of disbelief.


This is explained in more detail in the story of Prophet Noah [Nuh] (peace be upon him):

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...-nuh-noah.html

“And they worship besides Allaah things that harm them not, nor profit them, and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allaah’”

[Yoonus 10:18]


“And those who take Awliyaa’ (protectors, helpers, lords, gods) besides Him (say): ‘We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allaah’”

[al-Zumar 39:3]



And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, " Allah ." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah ? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah ; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers."

[Qur'an Zumar 39:38]


And your Lord said: "Call upon Me, I will answer you. Verily, those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!''.

[Qur'an Ghaafir 40:60]

Prophet Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus son of Mary, Muhammad and all the prophets (peace be upon them all) called against the worshipping of others besides Allaah. Yet this is exactly what the jews and christians fell into, and this is why Muhammad (peace be upon him) came as the final messenger to confirm what the previous prophets had called to.

Those who obey the Messengers will be successful in this world and the hereafter, whereas those who reject the messenger and follow the way of their forefathers in disbelief will face a humiliating punishment. We seek refuge in Allaah from that.

[جوري]

So much misconceptions ^ :)


We know that the first person to be created was Adam and his wife Hawwa [Eve.] They were muslims as they submitted to their Creator - Allaah, and islaam means submission. :)


All the prophets called to the worship of Allaah Alone without associating partners with Him in that worship. Whether these other partners are idols, humans [i.e. saints], or even philosophies etc.

Those who prefer the life of this world instead of the Hereafter, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah (i.e.Islam) and seek crookedness therein - They are far astray.

And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

And indeed We sent Musa (Moses) with Our Ayat (signs, proofs, and evidences) (saying): "Bring out your people from darkness into light, and make them remember the annals of Allah. Truly, therein are evidences, proofs and signs for every patient, thankful (person)."

And (remember) when Musa (Moses) said to his people: "Call to mind Allah's Favour to you, when He delivered you from Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) people who were afflicting you with horrible torment, and were slaughtering your sons and letting your women alive, and in it was a tremendous trial from your Lord."

And (remember) when your Lord proclaimed: "If you give thanks (by accepting Faith and worshipping none but Allah), I will give you more (of My Blessings), but if you are thankless (i.e. disbelievers), verily! My Punishment is indeed severe."

And Musa (Moses) said: "If you disbelieve, you and all on earth together, then verily! Allah is Rich (Free of all wants), Owner of all Praise."

Has not the news reached you, of those before you, the people of Nuh (Noah), and 'Ad, and Thamud? And those after them? None knows them but Allah. To them came their Messengers with clear proofs, but they put their hands in their mouths (biting them from anger) and said: "Verily, we disbelieve in that with which you have been sent, and we are really in grave doubt as to that to which you invite us (i.e. Islamic Monotheism)."

Their Messengers said: "What! Can there be a doubt about Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? He calls you (to Monotheism and to be obedient to Allah) that He may forgive you of your sins and give you respite for a term appointed." They said: "You are no more than human beings like us! You wish to turn us away from what our fathers used to worship. Then bring us a clear authority i.e. a clear proof of what you say)."

Their Messengers said to them: "We are no more than human beings like you, but Allah bestows His Grace to whom He wills of His slaves. It is not ours to bring you an authority (proof) except by the Permission of Allah. And in Allah (Alone) let the believers put their trust.

[Qur'an 14: 3-11]

There have been over 124000 prophets who have come to mankind, all calling to the worship of Allaah alone. This was the same message of Noah, Moses, Jesus son of Mary, Yahya (John the Baptist), Muhammad (peace be upon them all.)


The only reason why idol worship started was because after Adam (peace be upon him) - 10 generations later, the people started turning away from their submission to Allaah [i.e. islaam] and they started getting attatched to the world. So satan came to them and told them that he would create statues of these pious people so they may remember the good pious times. The people agreed.

Later as these people passed away, satan came to the people and said that your forefathers prayed to these pious people so they can pray on your behalf to Allaah. And this is exactly what associating partners with Allaah is, which is the worst sin a person can commit. And if one was to die in this state - they would die in a state of disbelief.


This is explained in more detail in the story of Prophet Noah [Nuh] (peace be upon him):

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...-nuh-noah.html

“And they worship besides Allaah things that harm them not, nor profit them, and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allaah’”

[Yoonus 10:18]


“And those who take Awliyaa’ (protectors, helpers, lords, gods) besides Him (say): ‘We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allaah’”

[al-Zumar 39:3]



And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, " Allah ." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah ? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah ; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers."

[Qur'an Zumar 39:38]


And your Lord said: "Call upon Me, I will answer you. Verily, those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!''.

[Qur'an Ghaafir 40:60]

Prophet Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus son of Mary, Muhammad and all the prophets (peace be upon them all) called against the worshipping of others besides Allaah. Yet this is exactly what the jews and christians fell into, and this is why Muhammad (peace be upon him) came as the final messenger to confirm what the previous prophets had called to.

Those who obey the Messengers will be successful in this world and the hereafter, whereas those who reject the messenger and follow the way of their forefathers in disbelief will face a humiliating punishment. We seek refuge in Allaah from that.

It doesn't seem to matter the volumes of literature compared/ exchanged... people will only follow their whims --- :muddlehea
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)." 3.85---
:w:

[cali dude]

What if someone submits to God or Waheguru?

Plus why would you say Adam and Eve submitted themselves to Allah, when the word Allah didn't exist at the time?

[جوري]

What if someone submits to God or Waheguru?

Plus why would you say Adam and Eve submitted themselves to Allah, when the word Allah didn't exist at the time?

How do you know the word Allah didn't exist?--- what if ,what if what-- if... if "they" want to submit to "waheguru"-- then it is "their" cross to bear.. each soul is hostage for its own deeds...

peace!

[NoName55]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God


ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik oankar satinamu karta purakhu nirbhau nirvairu akal murati ajuni saibhan gurprasadi
translates to
One Supreme Being, Truth is His/Her name; the Creator Primal Being; Without fear and Without Enmity,
the Timeless Verity, Un-incarnated and Self-Existent, known through His/Her grace.
(GG. Pg 1)

Millions are the mines of life; millions the spheres; Millions are the regions above; millions the regions below;
Millions are the species taking birth.
By diverse means does He spread Himself.
Again and again did He expand Himself thus,
But He ever remains the One Ekankar.
Countless creatures of various kinds
Come out of Him and are absorbed back.
None can know the limit of His Being;
He, the Lord, O Nanak! is all in all Himself.
(GG. 275-76)

Oankar is a variation of the mystic monosyllable Om (also known as anahata nada, the unstruck sound) first set forth in the Upanishads as the transcendent object of profound religious meditation.

Guru Nanak prefixed the numeral one (ik) to it making it "Ik Oankar" or "Ekankar" to stress GOD's oneness. GOD is named and known only through GOD's Own immanent nature. Almost all names are attributive. The only name which can be said to truly fit GOD's transcendent state is Sat or Satnam (Sanskrit 'satya' meaning TRUTH ), the changeless and timeless Reality. GOD is transcendent and all-pervasive at the same time. Transcendence and immanence are two aspects of the same single Supreme Reality. The Reality is immanent in the entire creation, but the creation as a whole fails to contain GOD fully. As says Guru Tegh Bahadur, Nanak IX, "He/She has himself spread out His/Her Own "maya" (worldly illusion) which He/She oversees; many different forms He/She assumes in many colours, yet He/She stays independent of all" (GG, 537).
Below are the main qualities that Sikhism attributes to God:

• Only God is worthy of worship and meditation at all times
• He is the Creator but also the Destroyer
• God is Compassionate and Kind
• With His Grace, He comes to dwell within the mind and body

Blessing us with His Grace, the Kind and Compassionate All-powerful Lord comes to dwell within the mind and body. (SGGS Page 49)

• He is merciful and wise

The Cherisher Lord is so very merciful and wise; He is compassionate to all. (SGGS Page 249)

• He is the ultimate Protector of all beings

The Lord is kind and compassionate to all beings and creatures; His Protecting Hand is over all. (SGGS Page 300)

• Only with His Will can pain, poverty, disease and hardships be removed from ones life.

O Nanak, God has been kind and compassionate; He has blessed me. Removing pain and poverty, He has blended me with Himself. ||8||5|| (SGGS Page 1311)

• God is everywhere

Nanak is attuned to the Love of the Lord, whose Light pervades the entire Universe. (SGGS Page 49)

[- Qatada -]

What if someone submits to God or Waheguru?

Plus why would you say Adam and Eve submitted themselves to Allah, when the word Allah didn't exist at the time?

Allaah is God, christian arabs even call God - Allaah. :) So whatever language they spoke - they probably called God - God, in whatever language they spoke.


Submitting to Allaah is by obeying His true Messengers who came with clear proofs, so the people at the time of Moses would obey their Prophet, the people at the time of Jesus son of Mary would have to obey Jesus, even if they believed in Moses before, and as it's been stated in the Qur'an:

Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing. [Qur'an 33:40]

So anyone who lives since he recieved the message, till the day of ressurrection - has to obey what was revealed to Allaah's final Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

[cali dude]

There is nothing better than having ability not to commit any sins and we know that there is only one way to avoid committing sins and that's by controlling all vices and then submitting yourself to "waheguru".

You might call yourself Muslim and you might think you have submitted to Allah but you are still not able to avoid committing sins until you have full control over all vices.

So there is one way to clearly submitting yourself to God and that's by first controlling all vices. Once you possess ability to avoid committing sins, only then you can be sure that you have for sure submitted yourself to God. It's not following any particular religion. In order for anybody to properly follow a "true religion", one must be a certain spiritual level to properly grasp the message. Only then s/he can follow it properly.

[- Qatada -]

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said that all the children of Adam commit sin, but the best of sinners are those that repent.

Part of the repentance process is to feel regret for the sin the person has commited, and the more one learns and applies islaam into their life - the more stronger they get in faith, the more one turns away and disobeys their Creator and His Messenger, the more they get weaker in faith.


Those who do good to please their Creator by obeying the Messenger have their reward with Him, whereas those who do good to please others besides or along with God - that is rejected because it isn't sincere. This might be known among many people who give in charity etc, but there is no good in that if it isn't for the sake of pleasing their Creator so that they may be rewarded by Him.

That's why on the Day of Judgement, man will be told to get his/her reward from the one they did the act to please - so if the person did an act to please Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) for example, they'll have to get their reward from him, which they won't be able to because all good belongs to Allaah. Those who did good to please their stone idol will be asked to get their reward from that stone idol, and what can a stone idol do?


If a person strived in this world for their own personal desires, i.e. for respect in the sight of others, or for wealth etc. and it wasn't done for the sake of Allaah - then Allaah may give this to them in this world, but if they never did nothing for the sake of Allaah, and they rejected His Messengers - then they won't have a share of any good in the hereafter. Because they never believed in it, infact they only thought about this life.


This shows Allaah's Justness.

Certainly, your efforts and deeds are diverse (different in aims and purposes);

As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allah and fears Him,

And believes in the best [reward],

We will make smooth for him the path of ease (goodness).


But he who is greedy miser and thinks himself self-sufficient.

And denies the best [reward],

We will make smooth for him the path for evil;



And what will his wealth benefit him when he goes down (in destruction).

Verily We take upon Ourselves to guide,

And truly, unto Us (belong) the last (Hereafter) and the first (this world).

Therefore I have warned you of a Fire blazing fiercely (Hell);

None will [enter to] burn therein except the most wretched one.

He who denieth and turneth away.


But the righteous one will avoid it -

He who spends his wealth for increase in self-purification,

And have in his mind no favour from anyone for which a reward is expected in return,

Except only the desire to seek the Countenance of his Lord, the Most High;

He surely will be pleased (when he will enter Paradise).


[Qur'an Al-Layl [The Night] 92: 4-21]

[AvarAllahNoor]

How do you know the word Allah didn't exist?--- what if ,what if what-- if... if "they" want to submit to "waheguru"-- then it is "their" cross to bear.. each soul is hostage for its own deeds...

peace!

Some call him Ram, some Khuda. Some say Gosain, some Allah some Waheguru....Is the one and same!

[- Qatada -]

Yup, and there is none worthy of worship (i.e. Prayers, obedience, worthy of love, fear, hope etc. except Him.) :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Yup, and there is none worthy of worship (i.e. Prayers, obedience, worthy of love, fear, hope etc. except Him.) :)

On this I agree. SGGS states this over and over again. Just as the Quran does!:statisfie

[- Qatada -]

Maasha Allaah that's kool :)

[cali dude]

[INDENT] The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said that all the children of Adam commit sin, but the best of sinners are those that repent.

How do you think you commit sins and how often? How often do you repent? Do you repent everyday, every hour or five times a day or every time you do something wrong?

[INDENT]
Part of the repentance process is to feel regret for the sin the person has commited, and the more one learns and applies islaam into their life - the more stronger they get in faith, the more one turns away and disobeys their Creator and His Messenger, the more they get weaker in faith.

Are you saying that if you do what Mohammad did, you will not be committing sins anymore? What is that you do to follow Mohammad footsteps that will help you stay away from committing sins?

[cali dude]

Some call him Ram, some Khuda. Some say Gosain, some Allah some Waheguru....Is the one and same!

Please read this shabad carefully. It starts with koyi bolay raam raam, koyi khudaaye, koyi sevay gusaniya, koyi alaahe and at the end of this shabad, it says kaho Nanak jinh hukam pachhata, prabh sahib ka tinh bhed jaata meaning people call Him with all kinds of different names but the one who recognizes His Hukam (will) is the only one who finds out the secret.

So this shabad is not about saying that they are all the same. Instead it's saying that even though people call Him by many different names, it doesn't mean much unless one recognizes His Hukam...

[- Qatada -]

How do you think you commit sins and how often? How often do you repent? Do you repent everyday, every hour or five times a day or every time you do something wrong?

Every person differs, and the best way to repent is to continue seeking Allaah's forgiveness for our wrongdoings. Whenever we get the chance.

Are you saying that if you do what Mohammad did, you will not be committing sins anymore? What is that you do to follow Mohammad footsteps that will help you stay away from committing sins?

Yeah, nearly any permissible action a person performs in life can be a form of worship. According to a prophetic saying, even the morsel of food a husband places in his wife's mouth. And obviously things like prayer, fasting are also good acts of worship. Some which are prescribed, others optional.

The best example is the Prophetic example, what he orders us to do is encouraged, and in some cases even obligatory. What he forbids us from is also a source of law since he is the Messenger of God. So yeah, by obeying him is obeying Allaah, peace and blessings be upon him.

[cali dude]

But it did not answer: "How do you think you commit sins and how often?"

[- Qatada -]

We don't mention our sins, their between us and Allaah. And it should remain that way. :) Some people actually feel proud of it, whereas its something to be ashamed about, because the person transgressed the boundaries set by Allaah. And part of the repentance process is to feel regret, and by actually mentioning the sin to others is showing that you're not really regretful.

[cali dude]

OK let me ask you this. Whatever those sins are/were, following Mohammad's message, have you quit committing those sins or are you still committing them? Do you think you will ever be able to quit committing those sins?

[- Qatada -]

Quit, and obviously we still have to work on commiting as less as possible, if it wasn't for the boundaries set by Allaah and the consequences of obeying/disobeying [i.e. paradise/hellfire] - we wouldn't really know what's right or wrong, so praise be to Allaah who sent down to us the criterion [the Furqaan i.e. Qur'aan.]


About commiting sins in the future, the stronger the level of faith - the more likely the person is to commit less because they are more aware of God and that He is watching over them etc. [i.e. taqwa] - but the more sins the person commits leads to a loss of sincerety, hence the weaker the faith becomes, and therefore the person can go astray. We seek refuge in Allaah from that.

I don't know my future, so i hope to strive and gain more taqwa [God consciessness] in order to be more sincere, and to strive to do good to please Him, and the results of that are that the person has more faith - which means the person is likely to commit less sins, and therefore have a more good ending of this life, and good in the hereafter, inshaa Allaah.

[cali dude]

Well this is where we stand.

One can only be united with God only one condition and that is to purify her/himself so that s/he is worthy of being united with God.

In Sikhi, it has been proven that the first step in this process is to completely eliminate all vices as we discussed before.

But in Chrisitianity, as I understand and heard, they believe that Jesus works as a mediator between a person's soul and God as person could never be pure and worthy of being united with God on its own.

Now you fall in the middle somewhere. So if you believe that only a pure soul like Jesus' can help one unite with God, then you guys should be Christians. But if you think a person can gain ability to avoid committing sins, then you basically believe what has been proven in Sikhi.

But if you keep repenting all your life and yet don't learn how to avoid committing sins, I don't know how useful it can be. You will just keep committing sins, keep repenting and still keep committing sins.

You may think that your perception of Islam is the best way to live your life. But I can guarantee you that there is even a better way than your way of life.

[- Qatada -]

Thanks for the offer, but i can't grasp the concept of 'becoming united with God because that just doesn't befit His Majesty. I believe that we don't need no mediators between us and God, and i believe in God's Messengers' and Prophets (peace be upon them), and i believe they all called to the obedience of God, and they came with clear proofs. They all called to the worship of God Alone, and they came with God's law.

Muhammad, peace be upon him was His final messenger and there will be no more prophets after him. He came with a clear proofs also, which is a miracle in of itself - the Qur'an. If you want, we can discuss this. I.e. we know of many scientific proofs stated in the Qur'an which have only been discovered within this century, yet Muhammad peace be upon him was an illiterate man. We also know that it hasn't ever been distorted since 14 centuries ago, and a copy written by his companions is still preserved till today in the Museum of Turkey.


All the prophets said that those who believe and do good will be rewarded for their good by God, and they said that if you disobey you will be punished by God. That was the same message of all the previous prophets, thats why even jews and christians believe in that concept of paradise and the hellfire. Even though they went astray in claiming that God has children, because again - that doesn't befit God's Majesty. Therefore i also believe that God doesn't 'unite' with His creation because that doesn't befit Him, the Almighty, Self Sufficient. :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Please read this shabad carefully. It starts with koyi bolay raam raam, koyi khudaaye, koyi sevay gusaniya, koyi alaahe and at the end of this shabad, it says kaho Nanak jinh hukam pachhata, prabh sahib ka tinh bhed jaata meaning people call Him with all kinds of different names but the one who recognizes His Hukam (will) is the only one who finds out the secret.

So this shabad is not about saying that they are all the same. Instead it's saying that even though people call Him by many different names, it doesn't mean much unless one recognizes His Hukam...

If it's mentioned the above names are used to refer to God, is that not self explantory of the meaning of the Shabad?

You need to be a Khalsa to fathom the true meaning veer.

Gur Fateh!

[cali dude]

If it's mentioned the above names are used to refer to God, is that not self explantory of the meaning of the Shabad?

You need to be a Khalsa to fathom the true meaning veer.

Gur Fateh!

No it's not. We need to look at the reason behind writing this shabad. We shouldn't be interpreting shabads as per our perception, instead, we should try to see what gurus were trying to say...

By the way, I have yet to see a Khalsa :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

By the way, I have yet to see a Khalsa :)

Until you become one the search will continue brother....:statisfie

Also Khalas are those that do not ridicule other peoples faiths, to make their own look appealing. :wink:

[cali dude]

Until you become one the search will continue brother....:statisfie

Also Khalas are those that do not ridicule other peoples faiths, to make their own look appealing. :wink:

When I say I have not seen a Khalsa, I mean in real life or on the Net, even on this site. I hope you understand whom I am talking about.

Nobody needs to ridicule any faith. but truth is above all, including all religions. If unveiling the truth about a religion is considered ridiculing that religion, then that religion must be ridiculous. But you must not hide the truth just because the truth offends some people.

Telling the truth must be the one of the first principles in any true faith.

Also a Khalsa does not change the interpretation of Gurbani just to fit in with some people. You remember Ram Rai who changed Gurbani to please Aurangzeb? He was excommunicated and he was Har Rai Ji's son.

I understand that you feel the need to please people here because of your Khalistani views but do not ridicule Gurbani...

[- Qatada -]

lol you can do all this through PM inshaa Allaah. it's like a msn convo, except longer :p

[cali dude]

lol you can do all this through PM inshaa Allaah. it's like a msn convo, except longer :p

It doesn't matter how we do it. Remember truth is the highest. So one with faith should have no problem telling the truth in public :)

[- Qatada -]

lol ok, so if you could explain my misunderstanding it would be of great help. The one on 'being united with God' which is the highest aim you wish to achieve. :)

[cali dude]

Well I am sorry. Even if I do my best, I probably can't explain the concept of "light is merging into light" to you. It's mainly because of differences in our understanding.

The only other thing I can think of right now is how Heer felt about Ranjha. If you have heard story of Heer/Ranjha, you may have heard what Heer said about Ranjha in Waris Shah's story. She said,"Ranjha Ranjha kardi ni mai aapey Ranjha hoyi, hun aakho mainu dheedo Ranjha, Heer na aakhe koyi." I am pretty sure you can ask your parents if they grew up in Pakistan their understanding of this as well. But my understanding is that Heer having so much in love with Ranjha lost her own identity and completely emotionally merged into Ranjha.

So the same way, Bhagats' soul completely merges spiritually into God's spirit.

This is simply my attempt at explaining how I understand. It doesn't mean that this is exactly how it is...

[- Qatada -]

Yeah i heard about Heer Ranja alot, but i don't understand - does this mean that according to sikhis, the person merges into God? And if that is so - then what role does that person have when they do that?

Also, what does God actually do according to Sikhi beliefs?

[cali dude]

Problem in understanding this concept could be because you think that when the person dies, s/he actually goes to the paradise. Instead, it's soul that goes in the world beyond, the body stays here in this world. So it's the soul that merges, not the person...

[- Qatada -]

We believe the person goes to the grave, then they are raised back up with their bodies on the Day of Judgement and be questioned by Allaah, the deeds are weighed, the book of all our actions are shown, and then depending on that - the person will either enter the prison of the fire or the eternal home of paradise.

That's been the exact message of all the prophets of God. And introducing re-incarnation is simply influenced by philosophy. Especially in regard to the claim that God doesn't actually have a role in anything. Whereas we know that Allaah is the Lord of the Worlds, and He is the One who legislates the laws for mankind, since He knows best His creation. And He reveals the message to the best of people, and He is the Most Wise.

[cali dude]

We believe the person goes to the grave, then they are raised back up with their bodies on the Day of Judgement and be questioned by Allaah, the deeds are weighed, the book of all our actions are shown, and then depending on that - the person will either enter the prison of the fire or the eternal home of paradise.

That's been the exact message of all the prophets of God. And introducing re-incarnation is simply influenced by philosophy. Especially in regard to the claim that God doesn't actually have a role in anything. Whereas we know that Allaah is the Lord of the Worlds, and He is the One who legislates the laws for mankind, since He knows best His creation. And He reveals the message to the best of people, and He is the Most Wise.

But what goes to the paradise or hell? Is it the soul or the body and soul together? and when is the day of judgment?

[- Qatada -]

People ask you concerning the Hour, say: "The knowledge of it is with Allah only. What do you know? It may be that the Hour is near!" [Qur'an 33:63]


The body and soul enter paradise, both parties are placed into different bodies compared to this world.

[cali dude]

People ask you concerning the Hour, say: "The knowledge of it is with Allah only. What do you know? It may be that the Hour is near!" [Qur'an 33:63]


The body and soul enter paradise, both parties are placed into different bodies compared to this world.

Is the body in paradise same kind of body as we have in this world or is it referring to some kind of spiritual body?

[- Qatada -]

Is the body in paradise same kind of body as we have in this world or is it referring to some kind of spiritual body?

No, it will be a new physical body. :) Because this life is only temporary, like an exam hall. Those who pass will be rewarded in the true home of paradise, whereas those who failed the test will be punished in the fire, also physically because they chose disbelief over belief. We seek refuge in Allaah from falling into that.

So it's not strange that the life of the hereafter can also be physical, since the One who created us from nothing can easily bring us back to life once again. Our souls will be the same i think, but new bodies. And Allaah knows best.

[cali dude]

No, it will be a new physical body. :) Because this life is only temporary, like an exam hall. Those who pass will be rewarded in the true home of paradise, whereas those who failed the test purposelly will be punished in the fire, also physically because they chose disbelief over belief. We seek refuge in Allaah from falling into that.

So it's not strange that the life of the hereafter can also be physical, since the One who created us from nothing can easily bring us back to life once again. Our souls will be the same i think, but new bodies. And Allaah knows best.

So you actually believe that there is another physical world somewhere? Is that physical world in this universe somewhere or out of this universe?

[- Qatada -]

So you actually believe that there is another physical world somewhere? Is that physical world in this universe somewhere or out of this universe?

If God can create this world as a physical world, it's easy for Him to create another physical one. It is part of the unseen which will become apparent once death overtakes us. I don't know the answer to the second question, so Allaah knows best.

[cali dude]

If God can create this world as a physical world, it's easy for Him to create another physical one. It is part of the unseen which will become apparent once death overtakes us. I don't know the answer to the second question, so Allaah knows best.

or maybe it's only spiritual world and exists among us but only souls without bodies can realize it...

If everything is physical, does Islam tell how the soul travels to the other world?

[- Qatada -]

or maybe it's only spiritual world and exists among us but only souls without bodies can realize it...

If everything is physical, does Islam tell how the soul travels to the other world?

The angel of death takes it. If the person was a believer and did good, it will be a good angel - their soul will be removed like a drop of water slipping out of a jug, however if the person was a disbeliever and did evil - then a scary angels will come to rip their soul out of them.

We hope to die as believers, in a state that Allaah is pleased with us. ameen.

[cali dude]

The angel of death takes it. If the person was a believer and did good, it will be a good angel - their soul will be removed like a drop of water slipping out of a jug, however if the person was a disbeliever and did evil - then a scary angels will come to rip their soul out of them.

We hope to die as believers, in a state that Allaah is pleased with us. ameen.

Are Angels physical or spiritual?

[- Qatada -]

Allaah knows best. I don't know :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

When I say I have not seen a Khalsa, I mean in real life or on the Net, even on this site. I hope you understand whom I am talking about.

Also a Khalsa does not change the interpretation of Gurbani just to fit in with some people. You remember Ram Rai who changed Gurbani to please Aurangzeb? He was excommunicated and he was Har Rai Ji's son.

I understand that you feel the need to please people here because of your Khalistani views but do not ridicule Gurbani...

1 - I get ya...

2 - I have not altered any Bani, find me the post that displays this. You interpretation is how you percieve it to be. Go to the Gurdwara with an open mind and ask them excatly what Bani says, and it's interpretation is. It appears you are segregating the verses of the Dhan Bhagats and those of the Gurus' . This is wrong, as there is no DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM!!

3 - And the last claim is ludicrious. If you go though my posts, you'll find I've not agreed to most things said on this forum, because they are not Gurmat or Sikhi, BUT that does not mean I should insult and mock it just because I can't fathom, or agree to dissagree.

On the last note, yes I am a Khalstani, just like millions of others. You'll understand the concept of "Raj Bina Nahin Dharam Chale Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalle Malle Hain" which literally means that sovereignty is a MUST in order for a religion to survive; otherwise religion perishes When your are graced with the Khande Bate Da Amrit. Please, do not delay any longer Basiakhi is upon us. Sacrafice your head for the Khalsa Quam and above all Akal Purakh.

Gur Fateh veer

Also your explanation on Sikhi to Fasbillah, has been YOUR own interpretaion on Sikhi and not Gurmat -Sikhi!

[cali dude]

This one is for Fi_S...

But it's obvious that they can't be physical. Otherwise, we would probably see them once in a while...

[- Qatada -]

But it's obvious that they can't be physical. Otherwise, we would probably see them once in a while...

Pain is real & physical, we don't see it but we feel it. The reason why i'm not giving you a clear answer is because i don't know [as i'm not knowledgable] anything from my scripture which states if they're physical or spiritual. Otherwise i can make up my own opinions too - but we need proof from the Authority before making up our own ideas into beliefs. :)

[cali dude]

Pain is real & physical, we don't see it but we feel it. The reason why i'm not giving you a clear answer is because i don't know [as i'm not knowledgable] anything from my scripture which states if they're physical or spiritual. Otherwise i can make up my own opinions too - but we need proof from the Authority before making up our own ideas into beliefs. :)

If we don't understand it entirely, we shouldn't be talking about it. But the pain to soul could also be due to separation from God. Once it's united with God, it doesn't desire anything else. That's why the first important thing is to quiet down our mind and mind is the one that wanders around desiring stuff other than God, which causes the soul to suffer as it takes the soul away from God. You may have experience this as well. Pain isn't always physical. Some times, there is nothing wrong with us physically but something within us is bothering us. Even physical pain has to register in the brain. So you should also find out if there is a brain in the physical body we supposedly acquire once we we die.

[- Qatada -]

We believe that the heart gets hardened it if it leaves the remembrance of Allaah. An example can be like rust on iron which keeps getting rusted unless it is polised. The remembrance of Allaah removes that rust, but if one doesn't remember Allaah - then by default the rust will keep coming back.

That is why things in our daily lives such as even placing a morsel of food in one's wifes mouth is a source of reward for the believer, and that is because they are doing the good to please Allaah. :)


The more a person sins - the heart gets a black dot on, the more a believer does good deeds in order to please Allaah - the heart gets a white mark on.
The more black stains the heart gets on, the more sins the person has done and therefore the person loses that innocence and pureness. However if they repent and do good - their heart will get that white once again.


The disbeliever and sinner may continue doing evil and the more evil they do, their heart may get sealed, locked etc. because they persisted in their evil. Their heart has become dark black, full of stains of evil. Yet still Allaah is willing to forgive them if they turn to Him before death overtakes them. However, the more dark stains they have - the more the person hates good and the more they incline to evil.


The good doer, believer however will get more stronger and more purer so long as they keep doing good to please their Creator, this will make them want to do more good deeds. Their heart will become as white as snow if they continue, and the more greater and beloved they will become in the sight of Allaah. Allaah loves them, and they love Him.


The good is ordained by Allaah and His Messenger.


For example:

Hadith - At-Tabaraanee collected it, and Albani authenticated it in Silsilatul-AHaadeethis-Saheehah (#432).

The Prophet (saaws) said: "The most beloved of Allah's servants to Allah are those with the best manners."




Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, Muslim, and Tirmidhi

... 'Abd Allah ibn 'Amr said, "The Prophet of Allah, upon him be peace, was never obscene or coarse. Rather, he used to tell us that the best among us were those with the best manners."




Allaah says in the Qur'an concerning the Messenger of Allaah:

(And verily, you [O Muhammad] are on an exalted (standard of) character.) [Qur'an 68:4]

"It has been mentioned to us that Sa`d bin Hisham asked `A'ishah about the character of the Messenger of Allah , so she replied: `Have you not read the Qur'an' Sa`d said: `Of course.' Then she said: `Verily, the character of the Messenger of Allah was the Qur'an.'''



`Abdur-Razzaq recorded similar to this and Imam Muslim recorded it in his Sahih on the authority of Qatadah in its full length. This means that he would act according to the commands and the prohibition in the Qur'an. His nature and character were patterned according to the Qur'an, and he abandoned his natural disposition (i.e., the carnal nature). So whatever the Qur'an commanded, he did it, and whatever it forbade, he avoided it. Along with this, Allah gave him the exalted character, which included the qualities of modesty, kindness, bravery, pardoning, gentleness and every other good characteristic. This is like that which has been confirmed in the Two Sahihs that Anas said, "I served the Messenger of Allah for ten years, and he never said a word of displeasure to me (Uff), nor did he ever say to me concerning something I had done: `Why did you do that' And he never said to me concerning something I had not done: `Why didn't you do this' He had the best character, and I never touched any silk or anything else that was softer than the palm of the Messenger of Allah . And I never smelled any musk or perfume that had a better fragrance than the sweat of the Messenger of Allah.''





Imam Al-Bukhari recorded that Al-Bara' said, "The Messenger of Allah had the most handsome face of all the people, and he had the best behavior of all of the people. And he was not tall, nor was he short.'' The Hadiths concerning this matter are numerous. Abu `Isa At-Tirmidhi has a complete book on this subject called Kitab Ash-Shama'il. Imam Ahmad recorded that `A'ishah said, "The Messenger of Allah never struck a servant of his with his hand, nor did he ever hit a woman. He never hit anything with his hand, except for when he was fighting Jihad in the cause of Allah. And he was never given the option between two things except that the most beloved of the two to him was the easiest of them, as long as it did not involve sin. If it did involve sin, then he stayed farther away from sin than any of the people. He would not avenge himself concerning anything that was done to him, except if the limits of Allah were transgressed. Then, in that case he would avenge for the sake of Allah.''






Peace. :)

[cali dude]

What you posted had nothing to do what I was saying in my post.

In your previous post, you said that the pain was physical even in so-called paradise. So, my reply was pain didn't have to be physical. It could be spiritual as well. You may have noticed that sometimes, there is nothing wrong with us physically but we still feel the pain or we feel sad. This could be our mind and soul bothering us.

You are not sure whether or not your virtual body in paradise will have brain and since physical pain can only be felt only if it gets registered in brain, you may not feel the physical pain in paradise. But if you believe that the soul lives on, one thing for sure soul will always suffer if not united with God.

But you are right that heart softens with God. However just because you are religious, since there is no guarantee that your heart is soft, there is no guarantee that you are closer to God. Someone who is isn't even religious or even doesn't even believe in God can be softhearted than a religious person, thus be closer to God. Do you actually think those religious people causing all this religious violence are any closer to God than a good non-religious person?

I can't stress enough that there is a better way to live than what you call Islamic way...

[- Qatada -]

What you posted had nothing to do what I was saying in my post.

In your previous post, you said that the pain was physical even in so-called paradise. So, my reply was pain didn't have to be physical. It could be spiritual as well. You may have noticed that sometimes, there is nothing wrong with us physically but we still feel the pain or we feel sad. This could be our mind and soul bothering us.

You are not sure whether or not your virtual body in paradise will have brain and since physical pain can only be felt only if it gets registered in brain, you may not feel the physical pain in paradise. But if you believe that the soul lives on, one thing for sure soul will always suffer if not united with God.

All you're doing is getting into the philosophy of the greeks and questioning something which hasn't been stated in the evidences, either in my religion or yours.


If God can create us physically out of nothing in this world - He can create us physically again in the hereafter, its as simple as that. And if you going to take this philosophical stuff seriosly - then your in much more doubt since you can't even explain how the person 'unites with God' and can only use the example of emotional love.

Being emotionally in love doesn't mean the person has become the other, and loving God does not mean the person becomes God. But thats what you're stating according to Sikhism, and whats even more ironic is that Avar has a totally different perception to you, i wonder why that may be? Maybe because you're stating your opinions instead of quoting your scripture.

But you are right that heart softens with God. However just because you are religious, since there is no guarantee that your heart is soft, there is no guarantee that you are closer to God. Someone who is isn't even religious or even doesn't even believe in God can be softhearted than a religious person, thus be closer to God. Do you actually think those religious people causing all this religious violence are any closer to God than a good non-religious person?

I can't stress enough that there is a better way to live than what you call Islamic way...

Someone who doesn't even know what God wants off His servants - how can they even know how to purify their heart? You know the Creator by believing in His Messenger, and submitting to Him. Otherwise the person wanders in darkness without knowing what is right or wrong.

Maybe if you could actually prove, yes i mean prove that what Islaam says is wrong - you would be able to 'help me' on my way to 'salvation'? But like you keep doing so much times on the forum - you simply state that islaam is wrong because of people who are doing it under the banner of islaam, even though islaam prohibits them acts i.e. the killing of women, children, seniors etc in the battlefield. And whenever we quote you certain actions commited by Sikhi's, you simply turn around and claim that they're not really sikhis. Then what are they? And why do you use that if i've told you that the acts some muslims do aren't part of islaam either?

[cali dude]

All you're doing is getting into the philosophy of the greeks and questioning something which hasn't been stated in the evidences, either in my religion or yours.

If God can create us physically out of nothing in this world - He can create us physically again in the hereafter, its as simple as that. And if you going to take this philosophical stuff seriosly - then your in much more doubt since you can't even explain how the person 'unites with God' and can only use the example of emotional love.

Being emotionally in love doesn't mean the person has become the other, and loving God does not mean the person becomes God. But thats what you're stating according to Sikhism, and whats even more ironic is that Avar has a totally different perception to you, i wonder why that may be? Maybe because you're stating your opinions instead of quoting your scripture.

I am pretty sure you are aware of the process this body is created. You have to have parents to have this body and then this body grows with time. God didn't just create even this body as an adult. Do you think you are going to have parents in paradise?

Merging souls makes much better sense than creating bodies in paradise. We can only give you examples of soul could merge into God's spirit but it's really up to your own perception to understand how it could be. If you can't understand it, then that's really God's will. I have tried to express this to you many times and you keep asking the same question over and over again.

Someone who doesn't even know what God wants off His servants - how can they even know how to purify their heart? You know the Creator by believing in His Messenger, and submitting to Him. Otherwise the person wanders in darkness without knowing what is right or wrong.

Maybe if you could actually prove, yes i mean prove that what Islaam says is wrong - you would be able to 'help me' on my way to 'salvation'? But like you keep doing so much times on the forum - you simply state that islaam is wrong because of people who are doing it under the banner of islaam, even though islaam prohibits them acts i.e. the killing of women, children, seniors etc in the battlefield. And whenever we quote you certain actions commited by Sikhi's, you simply turn around and claim that they're not really sikhis. Then what are they? And why do you use that if i've told you that the acts some muslims do aren't part of islaam either?

Some time God just gives people the spiritual wisdom even though they don't believe in any organized religion and then there are people who follow organized religion blindly and don't get anywhere.

We have talked about this many times for a long time. For you just because a girl has reached puberty, you, as a Muslim, think that you somehow has right have lust for her and to marry her, even if you are a married man. I, on the other hand, look at her my younger sister or even niece and there is no way I could ever have lust towards her.

Now you tell me what's better way of life? Having lust towards her or treating her like a younger sister or a niece? This is a simple one difference between your lifestyle as a Muslim and my lifestyle as simple an ordinary person...

[- Qatada -]

I am pretty sure you are aware of the process this body is created. You have to have parents to have this body and then this body grows with time. God didn't just create even this body as an adult. Do you think you are going to have parents in paradise?

The dwellers of paradise will be in the form of Adam, did you know that Allaah created Adam with His own hands? His hands are not like the creations, so please don't try to use aristotle again.

So Adam was created and he never went through the 'baby stage' - he was created as an adult and therefore Allaah can easily create new bodies for our souls again that way.

Merging souls makes much better sense than creating bodies in paradise. We can only give you examples of soul could merge into God's spirit but it's really up to your own perception to understand how it could be. If you can't understand it, then that's really God's will. I have tried to express this to you many times and you keep asking the same question over and over again.

Well this is the point you're all striving for, maybe if it made sense people would be happy to do that. But even if we ignored the issue of 'merging' together, then what are the consequences of that, because if something unites - then it becomes that, so you're claiming that god's creation becomes god itself. Which means according to Sikhism, god isn't whole, hence it means that the sikhi god isn't complete. So that really isn't even God. This is what happens when you try to use human logic to compare God to the creation.

Some time God just gives people the spiritual wisdom even though they don't believe in any organized religion and then there are people who follow organized religion blindly and don't get anywhere.

So you believe that God would send a disorganized religion? Or no religion at all?

We have talked about this many times for a long time. For you just because a girl has reached puberty, you, as a Muslim, think that you somehow has right have lust for her and to marry her, even if you are a married man. I, on the other hand, look at her my younger sister or even niece and there is no way I could ever have lust towards her.

Now you tell me what's better way of life? Having lust towards her or treating her like a younger sister or a niece? This is a simple one difference between your lifestyle as a Muslim and my lifestyle as simple an ordinary person...

Is that because you can't attack the concept of belief? Is that your little excuse for not accepting islaam? Because now that we've proven that there are no contradictions in islaam, killing innocents in the battlefield isn't permissible, that forced conversions isn't part of islaam either, you want to always run to this subject?

Havn't you read our statement that the marriage isn't valid if the female doesn't agree with that?

If she's 'just reached puberty' then what proves that she isn't ready for marriage. Who has more say, a contemporary non muslim female author or you? It's either one of you guys right? She proves her work with research and scientific facts, but whats the proof for your claim? Bring any of this and if you don't - then that just proves you're wrong. And anyone who's reading this will know that too.


Here's my proof, you bring yours:


Some modern female authors say:

Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture. (Rites of Passage: Puberty, by Sue Curewitz Arthen)


"Getting your period" marks a rite of passage for young girls entering womanhood. (From the Women's Resource Center)

Another contemporary reference relating marriage age to puberty is an article on Central Africa, which says:

. . . women marry soon after puberty4.

There are many other references which should prove to any intelligent person what anthropologists and historians already know: in centuries past, people were considered ready for marriage when they reached puberty.


It should be mentioned that from an Islamic point of view, many problems in society today can be traced back to the abandonment of early marriage. Due to the way that Almighty God has created man and woman, i.e., with strong sexual desires, people should marry young. In the past, this was even more true since life expectancy was very low (i.e. you were considered "old" if you made it to 40!) Not only does marriage provide a legal outlet for people with strong sexual desires, but it usually produces more children. One of the main purposes of marriage is to produce children -"be fruitful and multiply" as the Bible says (Genesis 8:17). This was especially important in the past, when people did not live as long as they do now and the infant morality rate was much higher.



Additionally, an article entitled Puberty in Girls by an Australian government Public Health organization, says:

The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years - even earlier for some and later for others.

An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty has this to say:

During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body.

Many will readily agree with the information above, but still might harbour reservations about whether a marriage to an older man could be happy for such a young girl. Putting aside the modern Western notions of "happiness" for a moment, the marriage of cAishah and the Prophet(P) was a mutually happy and loving one as in expressed in numerous hadîth and seerah books. That happy marriages occur between people with a fairly large difference in ages is known among psychologists:

When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse.7

In his comments on the ahadith in Sahîh Muslim which mention cAishah's young marriage to the Prophet(P), cAbdul-Hamîd Siddiqî shows three other reasons for this marriage:
cAishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad(P) at an early age allowed her to be an eyewitness to the personal details of his life and carry them on to the succeeding generations. By being both spiritually and physically near to the Prophet(P), the marriage prepared 'Aishah to be an example to all Muslims, especially women, for all times. She developed into a spiritual teacher and scholar, since she was remarkably intelligent and wise. Her qualities help support the Prophet's work and further the cause of Islam. cAishah, the Mother of the Believers, was not only a model for wives and mothers, but she was also a commentator on the Qur'ân, an authority on hadîth and knowledgeable in Islamic Law. She narrated at least 2,210 ahâdîth that give Muslims valuable insights into the Final Prophet's daily life and behaviour, thus preserving the Sunnah of Muhammad(P).

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

[cali dude]

The dwellers of paradise will be in the form of Adam, did you know that Allaah created Adam with His own hands? His hands are not like the creations, so please don't try to use aristotle again.

So Adam was created and he never went through the 'baby stage' - he was created as an adult and therefore Allaah can easily create new bodies for our souls again that way.

That's simply your belief but it doesn't make sense to me but you are free to believe whatever you want...

Well this is the point you're all striving for, maybe if it made sense people would be happy to do that. But even if we ignored the issue of 'merging' together, then what are the consequences of that, because if something unites - then it becomes that, so you're claiming that god's creation becomes god itself. Which means according to Sikhism, god isn't whole, hence it means that the sikhi god isn't complete. So that really isn't even God. This is what happens when you try to use human logic to compare God to the creation.

Well if you don't get it, there is nothing we can about it. So, leave it...

So you believe that God would send a disorganized religion? Or no religion at all?

God can make anybody spiritually wise with or without any religion. Some people are just born spiritually wise with no religion at all...

Is that because you can't attack the concept of belief? Is that your little excuse for not accepting islaam? Because now that we've proven that there are no contradictions in islaam, killing innocents in the battlefield isn't permissible, that forced conversions isn't part of islaam either, you want to always run to this subject?

Havn't you read our statement that the marriage isn't valid if the female doesn't agree with that?

If she's 'just reached puberty' then what proves that she isn't ready for marriage. Who has more say, a contemporary non muslim female author or you? It's either one of you guys right? She proves her work with research and scientific facts, but whats the proof for your claim? Bring any of this and if you don't - then that just proves you're wrong. And anyone who's reading this will know that too.

If she is not mature enough to decide what's good for her, it really doesn't matter whether she agree to get married. It's simple as that.

But also please answer whether it's better to live in a society where the younger people looked upon as own kids or in a society where younger people are looked as pray of lust.

Just think about it. If people can marry your first cousin, what's stopping them from marrying their own niece? Then how can parents even trust their own family members with their kids?

[cali dude]

Is that your little excuse for not accepting islaam?

Are you asking me or trying to convince me to accept Islam? If accepting Islam means submitting to Waheguru, then yes there have accepted Islam. But if Islam means living by beliefs of a Muslim (even a true Muslim), then there is no way, we will ever accept Islam...

[- Qatada -]

That's simply your belief but it doesn't make sense to me but you are free to believe whatever you want...

Yes but ours makes sense, yours doesnt. Its merely an opinion which contradicts itself. :)

Well if you don't get it, there is nothing we can about it. So, leave it...

So it's simply blind following? Just because your forefathers did the same?

God can make anybody spiritually wise with or without any religion. Some people are just born spiritually wise with no religion at all...

The Majority of mankind is in real danger then. Kinda sad.

If she is not mature enough to decide what's good for her, it really doesn't matter whether she agree to get married. It's simple as that.

But also please answer whether it's better to live in a society where the younger people looked upon as own kids or in a society where younger people are looked as pray of lust.

Then she doesn't need to get married. :)


And anyway define kids? :) The young woman doesn't get married until seeking permission off her wali/guardian [i.e. father] - so no-one can take advantage of her. Yet at the same time - the young woman doesn't get married except with her permission.

If you ever feel they can get molested, then our sisters have the defence of the hijaab so no perverts can stare at them. :) See how everything fits into each other, the praise is for Allaah for revealing to His Messenger the wisdom.

Just think about it. If people can marry your first cousin, what's stopping them from marrying their own niece? Then how can parents even trust their own family members with their kids?

The eminent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi wrote about this matter in his well-known book, The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam:

It is permanently haram [forbidden] for a Muslim man to marry a woman who belongs to one of the following categories:

1. The father's wife, whether divorced or widowed. During the period of jahiliyyah (pre-Islamic era of Ignorance) such marriages were allowed. Then Islam prohibited them, for once a woman is married to a man's father she acquires the status of his mother, and this prohibition is out of honor and respect for the father. Moreover, as this inviolable prohibition leaves no room for sexual attraction between the son and his step-mother, they are able to develop a relationship of respect and honor.

2. The mother, including the grandmothers on both sides.

3. The daughter, including the granddaughters from the son or daughter.

4. The sister, including the half- and step-sisters.

5. The paternal aunt, whether she is the real, half-, or step-sister of the father.

6. The maternal aunt, whether she is the real, half-, or step-sister of the father.

7. The brother's daughter, i.e., his niece.

8. The sister's daughter, i.e., his niece.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar

[- Qatada -]

Are you asking me or trying to convince me to accept Islam? If accepting Islam means submitting to Waheguru, then yes there have accepted Islam. But if Islam means living by beliefs of a Muslim (even a true Muslim), then there is no way, we will ever accept Islam...

I'm not trying to, i've given the proofs to you - my purpose is to convey the message. Allaah guides the hearts. If islaam was false, you would refute the points, all the praise is for Allaah all your arguments have been refuted. :)

[cali dude]

Yes, and so is yours. Its merely an opinion which contradicts itself. :)

At least what we know comes from saints and gurus own experience and it does make sense to us spiritually. But it does not matter whether or not it makes sense to you...

So it's simply blind following? Just because your forefathers did the same?

Sikhi makes the most sense of all. So, no it isn't blind faith. I don't believe in blind faith. We have concluded that Sikhi is the best.

The Majority of mankind is in real danger then. Kinda sad.

Religion has done major damage to the mankind. So mankind could be in danger without spiritual wisdom but not without a religion.

Then she doesn't need to get married. :)


And anyway define kids? :) The young woman doesn't get married until seeking permission off her wali/guardian [i.e. father] - so no-one can take advantage of her. Yet at the same time - the young woman doesn't get married except with her permission.

If you ever feel they can get molested, then our sisters have the defence of the hijaab so no perverts can stare at them. :) See how everything fits into each other, the praise is for Allaah for revealing to His Messenger the wisdom.

The eminent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi wrote about this matter in his well-known book, The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam:

It is permanently haram [forbidden] for a Muslim man to marry a woman who belongs to one of the following categories:

1. The father's wife, whether divorced or widowed. During the period of jahiliyyah (pre-Islamic era of Ignorance) such marriages were allowed. Then Islam prohibited them, for once a woman is married to a man's father she acquires the status of his mother, and this prohibition is out of honor and respect for the father. Moreover, as this inviolable prohibition leaves no room for sexual attraction between the son and his step-mother, they are able to develop a relationship of respect and honor.

2. The mother, including the grandmothers on both sides.

3. The daughter, including the granddaughters from the son or daughter.

4. The sister, including the half- and step-sisters.

5. The paternal aunt, whether she is the real, half-, or step-sister of the father.

6. The maternal aunt, whether she is the real, half-, or step-sister of the father.

7. The brother's daughter, i.e., his niece.

8. The sister's daughter, i.e., his niece.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar

It doesn't matter what excuse you use to marry a little girl, it's much better to treat her as your own daughter or niece instead of having lust for her and marrying her...

[cali dude]

I'm not trying to, i've given the proofs to you - my purpose is to convey the message. Allaah guides the hearts. If islaam was false, you would refute the points, all the praise is for Allaah all your arguments have been refuted. :)

Guess what. We already something that's better and that's Sikhi. No you have not refuted my arguments. A murderer can't use the willing to kill as an excuse. The same way, you can't use lust as an excuse to marry a child...

[- Qatada -]

At least what we know comes from saints and gurus own experience and it does make sense to us spiritually. But it does not matter whether or not it makes sense to you...

Sikhi makes the most sense of all. So, no it isn't blind faith. I don't believe in blind faith. We have concluded that Sikhi is the best.

Religion has done major damage to the mankind. So mankind could be in danger without spiritual wisdom but not without a religion.

You havn't proved one proof for any whatsoever, if you're truthful - quote me the proof you've stated. :) Or even more better, we'll give you a second chance so you can quote from your scripture.

Remember that we won't have a second chance for the hereafter, so accept the truth before death overtakes you. Then you will not be helped.

And indeed We have put forth every kind of example in this Quran, for mankind. But, man is ever more quarrelsome than anything.

And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Quran) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them (i.e. their destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to face?

And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery!


And who is more unjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away from them and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.

And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they have earned, then surely, He would have hastened their punishment. But they have their appointed time, beyond which they will find no escape.


[Qur'an 18: 54-58]

It doesn't matter what excuse you use to marry a little girl, it's much better to treat her as your own daughter or niece instead of having lust for her and marrying her...

That's not the case though, since you havn't proven that it's wrong from your own scripture, which means that it's permissible in Sikhism also.


Why do you argue over petty things when we have the hereafter to worry about? The day when we will see either the Reward of Allaah or His punishment, don't you fear that you will be raised back alone with all your deeds written infront of you? How would you feel on that day when Allaah will question you on whether you submitted to the way of His prophets? What would you say to Him, the Almighty?

[PCJS]

You havn't proved one proof for any whatsoever, if you're truthful - quote me the proof you've stated. :) Or even more better, we'll give you a second chance so you can quote from your scripture.

What other proof you need than that some with lust could never be a Sikh? I have so much respect for Gurbani that I don't like to post it here.

Remember that we won't have a second chance for the hereafter, so accept the truth before death overtakes you. Then you will not be helped.

And indeed We have put forth every kind of example in this Quran, for mankind. But, man is ever more quarrelsome than anything.

And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Quran) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them (i.e. their destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to face?

And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery!


And who is more unjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away from them and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.

And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they have earned, then surely, He would have hastened their punishment. But they have their appointed time, beyond which they will find no escape.


[Qur'an 18: 54-58]

If you think Islam is the truth, then there is something better than truth and that is Sikhi. Since nothing can be better than truth, Islam can't be the truth...

That's not the case though, since you havn't proven that it's wrong from your own scripture, which means that it's permissible in Sikhism also.

No, it isn't permissible in Sikhi as a Sikh is not supposed to have any lust, thus would not be going this way anyways...

Why do you argue over petty things when we have the hereafter to worry about? The day when we will see either the Reward of Allaah or His punishment, don't you fear that you will be raised back alone with all your deeds written infront of you? How would you feel on that day when Allaah will question you on whether you submitted to the way of His prophets? What would you say to Him, the Almighty?

We know that what we believe in is much better than what you believe in. As we have discussed this before. Islam only teaches you to do karma and some of these karmas that you do as a Muslim are actually negative karma. So just even trying to be a good Sikh is better than being a Muslim, even if we are not really succesful in being a "true Sikh".

Petty things?

Spirituality is like an ocean of pure water. Even a single drop of dirt can pollute the entire ocean of pure water. So even a tiny wrong thing is not acceptable when it comes to truth.

[- Qatada -]

What other proof you need than that some with lust could never be a Sikh? I have so much respect for Gurbani that I don't like to post it here.

Lust is human nature, maybe you could give me the answer since i get so much difference of opinions.

Is marriage permissible in sikhism? If so - please quote from your scripture. If you don't, then that shows that sikhi isn't really for everyone is it? Since you can't even use it to call people to your religion? And anyway even if it is permitted, the guy can't have lust for his wife right? He can only have intercourse for children? No love, no nothing?

If you think Islam is the truth, then there is something better than truth and that is Sikhi. Since nothing can be better than truth, Islam can't be the truth...

Then maybe you could give a better understanding of how the person 'merges with god' - safe? :)

No, it isn't permissible in Sikhi as a Sikh is not supposed to have any lust, thus would not be going this way anyways...

Not even for one's own wife?

We know that what we believe in is much better than what you believe in. As we have discussed this before. Islam only teaches you to do karma and some of these karmas that you do as a Muslim are actually negative karma. So just even trying to be a good Sikh is better than being a Muslim, even if we are not really succesful in being a "true Sikh".

Cali said it's rare to be a true sikhi, must be really hard to be successful. And its kinda sad on the people who don't even know about sikhi since the Guru Granth Sahib isn't translated in any other language, and the people aren't even encouraged to call others to it. If you disagree, then you're going against what cali said. And if that is the case - then i can't believe anything you guys say since no-one brings proof.

Petty things?

Spirituality is like an ocean of pure water. Even a single drop of dirt can pollute the entire ocean of pure water. So even a tiny wrong thing is not acceptable when it comes to truth.

You're all striving to 'unite with god' right? If so - please explain it so it becomes understandable. And also define what happens to that 'soul' once it 'unites with god.' If it becomes 'god' according to Sikhism, then that doesn't make sense because it means that god is lacking, or isn't whole.

So this is the main issue since we all want to please God, how is it pleasing to say that God isn't whole?

[PCJS]

whatever...

[- Qatada -]

Then why don't you submit to Allaah? :) All praise is for Allaah, He has made islaam a perfect religion without any contradictions, we shouldn't follow a religion just because our forefathers did so. We should follow the truth.

Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

[2: 255-7]

[One Man Army]

Gurfateh Khalsa Jeeo

day by day iv started to realise dese forums r jus a waste of space. Khalsa jeeo, dont let things like this pull you down and affect your jeevans. theres alot of seva out their that needs to be done. Guru Sahib has shown me this shabad:

jis hathh sidhh dhaevai jae soee jis no dhaee this aae milai ||
naanak thaa ko milai vaddaaee jis ghatt bheethar sabadh ravai ||
sabh ghatt maerae ho sabhanaa a(n)dhar jisehi khuaaee this koun kehai ||
jisehi dhikhaalaa vaattarree thisehi bhulaavai koun ||
jisehi bhulaaee pa(n)dhh sir thisehi dhikhaavai koun ||1||


He alone grants it, whose hands hold spritual perfection; he alone receives it, unto whom it is given.
O Nanak, he alone is blessed with glorious greatness, whose heart is filled with the Word of the Shabad.
God says, all hearts are mine, and I am in all hearts. Who can explain this to one who is confused?
Who can confuse that being, unto whom I have shown the Way?
And who can show the Path to that being whom I have confused since the beginning of time?

Its all in hukam. Akaal purak gives, and akaal purak takes. Guru Sahib is the only one who can show the path. if they have chosen to confuse, then that is their will.

The reason why i am saying this, as these forums can become addictive, always wanting to argue and prove the next person wrong. Its adding to our hankaar (ego), and will not change anyones views. Dont forget Sarbat da bhulla, let them believe what they are being taught, and keep focus on your sikhi.


Keep Chardi Kalla

Vaheguroo jee ka khalsa, Vaheguroo je kee phateh!

[- Qatada -]

But if god was inside everyone, then does that mean everyone's god? And the one's who are more pious have more 'god' in them?


The reason why i'm asking you this is because God only reveals a religion which makes sense, and He doesn't humiliate himself either as He only does what Befits His Majesty. So He doesn't have children like the christians and jews claim, nor is He inside the creation. Nor does He come as a human. And nor does the creation 'merge' into Him. Since He is the All-Perfect, All Knowing.

Say: "Have ye seen (these) 'Partners' of yours whom ye call upon besides Allah? Show Me what it is they have created in the (wide) earth. Or have they a share in the heavens? Or have We given them a Book from which they (can derive) clear (evidence)?- Nay, the wrong-doers promise each other nothing but delusions.

[Qur'an 35:40]

Ultimate truth, you should be one of the most closest to the truth - remember when you first came on the forum and said you were seeking guidance? :) Now that it's come to you, isn't it about time you submitted to Allaah and His message?

[One Man Army]

I have done alot of study into islam. If i started pointing out every little thing and show you what i fink is totaly wrong id be here for a long time. Im not gna sit and try proving Islam wrong. i dont need to. why? cuz Guru Sahib has caused me to find and see truth. If u want answers to sikhi, and understand sikhi, you certainly wont get it on an islamic forum. I can answer all your questions, but their is no point. you will get some stupid irrelevant point, misinterpretate it, and continue in this circle. if i started aswel on what i think of items in Islam, we'd b in the same situation. The difference between us is Sikhs do not need to prove someone else is wrong, in order to prove we are right.

If you want Sikhi, read Guru Granth Sahib jee. not ask Sikhs such as myself who think we know sikhi, when we dont have a clue.

I have submitted to Allah, and his message, I given my head to my Guru. He is the only one that can carry humanity across this world ocean, and stop people drowning to Maya and their minds desires:

Gauree, Kabeer Jee:
He claims to know the Lord, who is beyond measure and beyond thought;
by mere words, he plans to enter heaven. ||1||
I do not know where heaven is.
Everyone claims that he plans to go there. ||1||Pause||
By mere talk, the mind is not appeased.
The mind is only appeased, when egotism is conquered. ||2||
As long as the mind is filled with the desire for heaven,
he does not dwell at the Lord's Feet. ||3||
Says Kabeer, unto whom should I tell this?
The Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is heaven.


One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
The one who bows in humble reverence to the Primal Lord, the Lord of all beings
- I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to such a Guru; He Himself is liberated, and He carries me across as well. ||1||Pause||
Which, which, which of Your Glorious Virtues should I chant? There is no end or limitation to them.
There are thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, many millions of them, but those who contemplate them are very rare. ||1||
I am wonder-struck, wonder-struck, wonder-struck and amazed, dyed in the deep crimson color of my Beloved.
Says Nanak, the Saints savor this sublime essence, like the mute, who tastes the sweet candy, but only smiles. ||2||1||20||

[AvarAllahNoor]

Gurfateh Khalsa Jeeo


jis hathh sidhh dhaevai jae soee jis no dhaee this aae milai ||
naanak thaa ko milai vaddaaee jis ghatt bheethar sabadh ravai ||
sabh ghatt maerae ho sabhanaa a(n)dhar jisehi khuaaee this koun kehai ||
jisehi dhikhaalaa vaattarree thisehi bhulaavai koun ||
jisehi bhulaaee pa(n)dhh sir thisehi dhikhaavai koun ||1||


He alone grants it, whose hands hold spritual perfection; he alone receives it, unto whom it is given.
O Nanak, he alone is blessed with glorious greatness, whose heart is filled with the Word of the Shabad.
God says, all hearts are mine, and I am in all hearts. Who can explain this to one who is confused?
Who can confuse that being, unto whom I have shown the Way?
And who can show the Path to that being whom I have confused since the beginning of time?

Vaheguroo jee ka khalsa, Vaheguroo je kee phateh!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa, Waheguroo Je Kee Fateh

WOW veer this Shabad hits the nail on the head! - Although htis thread has taken a turn of it's own. The Shabad sums it all up.

Dhan Gurbani Nirankar Di (Great Are The Verses Of The Formless)

[AvarAllahNoor]

But if god was inside everyone, then does that mean everyone's god? And the one's who are more pious have more 'god' in them?


The reason why i'm asking you this is because God only reveals a religion which makes sense, and He doesn't humiliate himself either as He only does what Befits His Majesty. So He doesn't have children like the christians and jews claim, nor is He inside the creation. Nor does He come as a human. And nor does the creation 'merge' into Him. Since He is the All-Perfect, All Knowing.
?

Sikhi makes perfect sense if you're open minded.

Concept of God

Followers of the Sikh faith believe that all life, including human life, comes from God. God is the Creator of the universe and the force that keeps it in existence. God is purely spiritual, has no physical body and cannot be known or experienced through the five senses. God is infinitely above and beyond everything else that exists (transcendent). God is also within all creation, including human beings (immanent) and, therefore, Sikhs believe that all creation is part of God.

Think of it as a bit of DNA from a parent. Yet we have a part of him within us all, we cannot become God. Just as a Son, cannot be the father and daughter cannot be the mother!

Gur Fateh

[AvarAllahNoor]

Now that it's come to you, isn't it about time you submitted to Allaah and His message?

But we have....Sikhi and the revelations of the Shri Guru Granth Sahib is the message of God. And we have submitted :statisfie

[- Qatada -]

Hi ultimate.


Is the Guru Granth Sahib revelation from God in the sight of sikhis?

Avar, what are saints? :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Hi ultimate.


Is the Guru Granth Sahib revelation from God in the sight of sikhis?

Avar, what are saints? :)

Shiekh Fareed Ji and the rest in the Guru Granth Sahib

Do you want verses stating the Guru Granth Sahib is Gods word?

[- Qatada -]

Thanks. My question was what the role of saints is in Sikhism? :) And yeah i'd like to see some proof for the claim that it's God's words. :)


Regards.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Thanks. My question was what the role of saints is in Sikhism? :) And yeah i'd like to see some proof for the claim that it's God's words. :)


Regards.

These saints had the Word of God delivered to them. They were enlightened with the verses of God. The truth which was revealed through those spiritual people is in collected.

ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥

1 - As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.

(P. 722, SGGS)

2 - The Word of the True Guru's Bani is the embodiment of Truth; through Gurbani, one becomes perfect.

(P. 304, SGGS)

Guru Nanak declared that he sings and composes only what God Himself tells him. He did not, as some others claim to have done, write words dictated by some angel etc. The Gurus collected and recorded all the Gurbani themselves. They put it in music, so that it will be sung. There is no other such writing


Whatever the Gurus said was as if it came from God's own mouth. Those who ignore it knowingly are in fact, committing a sin. A true test of God's Word, and the Messiah who conveys it, is whether this message joins us with God, whether it makes us realize God's love for us. On the other hand, if a message promotes arguments and fights while trying to make us follow some person or even God, on the basis of punishment or a reward, then, it is not from God - Gurbani achieves the former.

A true religion teaches a sane life, a life that is lived being spiritually in touch with reality. Any teaching that lacks this is, simply, fooling us with false promises that are, sadly, exposed after we die. Often, such teaching is the result of our own misinterpretation of the stories that were invented to coerce us into a religious life. It is time to grow above those stories. Guru Nanak taught that God is the only reality and God is the only one who is eternal. The invisible, God, is the source of life while the visible world represents a constant flow towards death. A true religion teaches a mystical, inner connection with God through a constant Remembrance and Gratitude, called Simran.

[AvarAllahNoor]

No particular religion has a monopoly over God's Word. A mere label or a verbal declaration of our faith is of little value. God does not crave praise, nor does He covet slavery of humans. These are only human characteristics. God's religion demands only correct inner intentions, and acts that would manifest God's love for everyone, making others follow your example. Gurbani, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, declares this. We need to accomplish it before death, not after.

true religion does not depend upon some prior covenant that God is said to have made with a certain nation. God does not favor a special era in the past, a certain nation, or a geographic location. Such stories are rejected because they are not in agreement with truth, that God loves everyone equally. He sends His messengers all the time, in all areas of the world. Some are widely known while others are not. Gurbani does not promote any Messiah as the only one or the last one, etc. We find that Gurbani is busy stressing upon an inner spiritual relationship with God and teaching us how to restore it. Gurbani is not filled with worldly wisdom.

[- Qatada -]

Hey.


I said:

Thanks. My question was what the role of saints is in Sikhism? :) And yeah i'd like to see some proof for the claim that it's God's words. :)


Regards.

Please. :)

[noodles]

Ok from what I've read so far, I understand that according to the Sikhi's the soul merges into God. Am I right so far?

I also read that the person's soul only enters God when it is pure.

Moreover, we all know that human beings have faults, be it emotional, physical, psychological any kind of fault, but humans are faulty in general. Although we strive for excellence in front of god, we are still faulty and we commit sins.

What we don't know is the time of our death.

You and I know that no person can be sinless at any point in time. Sometimes we commit sins purposely and sometimes unconsciously, so if we die right now while still having sins, how will be 'Merge' with god?

Sorry if I have said anything offensive.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Hey.


I said:





Please. :)

lol i did

ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥

1 - As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.

(P. 722, SGGS)

2 - The Word of the True Guru's Bani is the embodiment of Truth; through Gurbani, one becomes perfect.

(P. 304, SGGS)

"I myself know not what to say; all I speak is what the Lord commands."
(Ang 763)

[noodles]

Honestly I've read through this thread with an open-mind.
I do have more questions I want to ask, but please answer my previous post, so I can ask more questions.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Ok from what I've read so far, I understand that according to the Sikhi's the soul merges into God. Am I right so far?

I also read that the person's soul only enters God when it is pure.

Moreover, we all know that human beings have faults, be it emotional, physical, psychological any kind of fault, but humans are faulty in general. Although we strive for excellence in front of god, we are still faulty and we commit sins.

What we don't know is the time of our death.

You and I know that no person can be sinless at any point in time. Sometimes we commit sins purposely and sometimes unconsciously, so if we die right now while still having sins, how will be 'Merge' with god?

Sorry if I have said anything offensive.

Note Guru here is referred to God and not human


Guru Amar Das Ji tells unequivocally how to obtain liberation and ultimately salvation.

Siree Raag, Third Mehla:

You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within.

You may perform religious rituals, and still never obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, remain dead while yet alive, and the Name of the Lord shall come to dwell within the mind. ||1||
Listen, O my mind: hurry to the Protection of the Guru's Sanctuary.
By Guru's Grace you shall be saved. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean of poison. ||1||Pause||

Everything under the influence of the three qualities shall perish; the love of duality is corrupting.

The Pandits, the religious scholars, read the scriptures, but they are trapped in the bondage of emotional attachment. In love with evil, they do not understand.


Meeting the Guru, the bondage of the three qualities is cut away, and in the fourth state, the Door of Liberation is attained. ||2||
Through the Guru, the Path is found, and the darkness of emotional attachment is dispelled.

If one dies through the Shabad, then salvation is obtained, and one finds the Door of Liberation.
By Guru's Grace, one remains blended with the True Name of the Creator. ||3||

This mind is very powerful; we cannot escape it just by trying.
In the love of duality, people suffer in pain, condemned to terrible punishment.

O Nanak, those who are attached to the Naam are saved; through the Shabad, their ego is banished. ||4||18||51||

Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji in Siree Raag on Pannaa 33

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

. 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ud reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "No one who has an atom's weight of pride in his heart will enter the Garden." A man said, "And if the man likes his clothes to be good and his sandals to be good?" He said, "Allah is Beautiful and loves beauty. Pride means to renounce the truth and abase people."

[Sahih Muslim]

[noodles]

Yes, I do agree with what Fi_si is saying.

The very act of being sinless isn't possible in this world. If you do happen to be in that state, you would be consumed by pride. It is why in our religion it is said to 'Repent, Repent and REPENT!!'. Having constant remembrance of our sins brings us closer to Allah. However, we cannot be foolish enough to think that we will be sinless in future. You cannot predict your future, neither will you know the amount of sins you will commit in your future.

I refuse to believe that such a person exists.

If you do happen to have an example of a person, I will gladly look into his past and determine it myself.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Yes, I do agree with what Fi_si is saying.

The very act of being sinless isn't possible in this world. If you do happen to be in that state, you would be consumed by pride. It is why in our religion it is said to 'Repent, Repent and REPENT!!'. Having constant remembrance of our sins brings us closer to Allah. However, we cannot be foolish enough to think that we will be sinless in future. You cannot predict your future, neither will you know the amount of sins you will commit in your future.

I refuse to believe that such a person exists.

If you do happen to have an example of a person, I will gladly look into his past and determine it myself.

O Nanak, those who are attached to the Naam are saved; through the Shabad, their ego is banished

[life]

hi AvarAllahNoor

I heard that hindusim believes in reincarnation of souls.do you people also believe in reincarnation? If not then what is ur religion said about life after death?

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


This is the meeting the believers [in Allaah and His true messengers] will have with Allaah Almighty in paradise.. may Allaah make us of them, ameen.

A Meeting with Allaah...

Media Tags are no longer supported

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Id6Z1IqZYM

[AvarAllahNoor]

hi AvarAllahNoor

I heard that hindusim believes in reincarnation of souls.do you people also believe in reincarnation? If not then what is ur religion said about life after death?

Human life is just a stage in the upward march of the soul. The individual has got birth as a human being, after going through lower forms of life. Human life is the final stage in the soul's progress to divinity. It is for us to make the most of this opportunity and thereby end our cycle of transmigration.

Death means the destruction of the physical self. The ashes and bonedust mix with the elements. But the soul which leaves the body, awaits a new dwelling. Just as a person casts off worn-out garments and puts on other that are new, so the subtle soul casts off the worn-out body and dwells in a new form. If there were no continuance of the soul after death, how could it become perfect to merit union with the Almighty?

Sikhism believes in the immortality of the soul. The devotee has no fear of the pangs of death. In fact he welcomes death, because it gives him a chance for the merger into Divinity. The evil person, however, dreads death. For him, it will lead to the unending cycle of birth and death. After death, man comes to the next birth according to what he deserves. If he has been wicked and evil, he takes birth in the lower species. If he has done good deeds, he takes birth in a good family. The cycle of birth and death keeps the soul away from Divinity. It can merge with God, only if the individual, by spiritual effort, has amassed the capital of the Name(the Holy spirit as understood by Christians) and thus lives with the Holy Spirit.


Guru Arjan in the Sukhmani dwells on the sad plight of the soul which is not endowed with the Name. The soul in its lonely march through darkness can only find sustenance in the word of God. Otherwise it feels the weariness and pain of isolation.

The soul, Jiva, is a part of God. It is deathless like Him. Before creation, it lived with God. After Creation it takes bodily forms according to His Will. The soul is, however, nourished by virtue and meditation on "The name" (Guru Granth Sahib). The transmigration of the soul can come to an end by meditation and divine grace.

[AvarAllahNoor]

This is to show tolerance is not uncommon amongs Sikhs and Muslims

Thousands of Sikh devotees arrive in Pakistan for Baisakhi festival

Malaysia Sun
Tuesday 10th April, 2007
(ANI)



Wagah, Apr.10 : Over 3000 Sikh pilgrims from India have arrived in Pakistan by special trains on a ten-day visit to participate in Baisakhi celebrations.

The festival also marks the birth anniversary of the 'Khalsa Panth' or the Sikh order, which was established in 1699 by Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth spiritual leader of Sikhs.

Evacuee Trust Property Board (ETPB) Chairman Lt Gen (Retired) Zulifqar Ali Khan along with senior board officials and Pakistan Sikh Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (PSGPC) President Sardar Bishen Singh accorded a warm welcome to the devotees on their arrival at the Wagah railway station, the last border railway station with India.

The devotees urged more people-people contact between the two countries.

"We request to the people of both the countries, we request to the rulers to make efforts to bring people closer and closer so that both the countries together, by the grace of God, move towards prosperity," said Manjeet Singh, a Sikh devotee.

"I feel really glad to see a welcoming atmosphere here. I pray to Wahegurujee (Almighty) that we meet each other and be brethren again," said Amarjeet Kaur, a woman devotee.

The Sikh pilgrims are scheduled to attend weeklong celebrations of Baisakhi to be held at Gurdwara Panja Sahib in Hassanabdal. They will also visit Lahore, Nankana Saheb and other religious places, including Gurdwara Kartarpur Saheb.

They will be attending the main function of Baisakhi till 14th of April and later travel to Nankana Saheb, Gurdwara Janam Asthan and Tamboo Saheb to perform religious ceremonies for three days. During their pilgrimage, the devotees will also celebrate the 308th birthday of Guru Gobind Singh.

Around 13,000 Sikhs with 4000 from India, 1000 from Europe, and 8000 Pakistani devotees would participate in one of their largest festivals.

[- Qatada -]

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/38079-guru-nanak-dev-ji-muslim.html?highlight=sikh

Perhaps you can give it a sub-title. Then we don't get confused. Thanks :)

http://www.islamicboard.com/752066-post33.html


What do you mean by subtitle? :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

http://www.islamicboard.com/752066-post33.html


What do you mean by subtitle? :)

It's OK, I've done so. :)

Now what is it you're referring to mate?

[- Qatada -]

OK, my question is do people worship saints? Along with Allaah? And if so - why? If it's supposed to be a religion of monotheism?

[AvarAllahNoor]

OK, my question is do people worship saints? Along with Allaah? And if so - why? If it's supposed to be a religion of monotheism?

Be nice if you linked me up with a source for this questions mate. Is this something you've heard? or is it something you've read?

In Sikhism, Saints have contributed to the Holy Scriptures, but they are NOT seen as God like. - Please give expamples to why you would think this. :)

[Gangster No.1]

Sikhsim is your religion good for, muslims dont believe sikhism is sect of islam, so whats the point of this thread?

also your nikname is AvarAllahNoor, what does that mean, us that your name? or what, only asking becuz it says Allah?

[- Qatada -]

I havn't got any links, but i'm asking if people worship the Gurus. I know they believe that it's Allaah who created the universe, even polytheists do. But they start worshipping others along with Him, usually as intermediarries.

So that's basically my question - do people worship others along with Allaah in Sikhism?

[AvarAllahNoor]

I havn't got any links, but i'm asking if people worship the Gurus. I know they believe that it's Allaah who created the universe, even polytheists do. But they start worshipping others along with Him, usually as intermediarries.

So that's basically my question - do people worship others along with Allaah in Sikhism?

Oh I see.

Not that I know of, no. It is forbidden to worship any human being. Yes some fools who have NO knowledge of the religion think we have '10 Gods' and bow to pictures (which in my opinion should be banned, and have been in many Gurdwaras) but like I say it's down to lack of education.

You'll find some muslims believe in Mohammed, but this it also wrong, is it not? does not mean it's the true practice of Islam. God alone is worthy of worship and our Scriptures make this crystal clear. :)

[- Qatada -]

Thanks for clearing that up man, just one more thing - do people pray to the Guru's graves etc to intercede on their behalf to God?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Thanks for clearing that up man, just one more thing - do people pray to the Guru's graves etc to intercede on their behalf to God?

The Guru's have no graves. They were creamated and the shrines that have been erected in remberance are used for no more than worship of God. The Guru's made it clear that they do not have the power to give or take. God alone sent them on a mission and this was to make sure humanity worshipped God alone who is not human and is the most omnipotent of all!

*Sorry for spelling mistakes I am rushing*:)

[One Man Army]

Avar's name comes from a shabad in Guru Granth Sahib jee:

prabhaathee ||
aval aleh noor oupaaeiaa kudharath kae sabh ba(n)dhae ||eaek noor thae sabh jag oupajiaa koun bhalae ko ma(n)dhae ||1||
logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab t(h)aa(n)ee ||1|| rehaao ||
maattee eaek anaek bhaa(n)th kar saajee saajanehaarai ||
naa kashh poch maattee kae bhaa(n)ddae naa kashh poch ku(n)bhaarai ||2||
sabh mehi sachaa eaeko soee this kaa keeaa sabh kashh hoee ||
hukam pashhaanai s eaeko jaanai ba(n)dhaa keheeai soee ||3||
alahu alakh n jaaee lakhiaa gur gurr dheenaa meet(h)aa ||
kehi kabeer maeree sa(n)kaa naasee sarab nira(n)jan ddeet(h)aa ||4||3||


Prabhaatee:
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||

[Gangster No.1]

The Guru's have no graves. They were creamated and the shrines that have been erected in remberance are used for no more than worship of God. The Guru's made it clear that they do not have the power to give or take. God alone sent them on a mission and this was to make sure humanity worshipped God alone who is not human and is the most omnipotent of all!

*Sorry for spelling mistakes I am rushing*:)

Did the guru actually speak 2 god?

[Gangster No.1]

Avar's name comes from a shabad in Guru Granth Sahib jee:

prabhaathee ||
aval aleh noor oupaaeiaa kudharath kae sabh ba(n)dhae ||eaek noor thae sabh jag oupajiaa koun bhalae ko ma(n)dhae ||1||
logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab t(h)aa(n)ee ||1|| rehaao ||
maattee eaek anaek bhaa(n)th kar saajee saajanehaarai ||
naa kashh poch maattee kae bhaa(n)ddae naa kashh poch ku(n)bhaarai ||2||
sabh mehi sachaa eaeko soee this kaa keeaa sabh kashh hoee ||
hukam pashhaanai s eaeko jaanai ba(n)dhaa keheeai soee ||3||
alahu alakh n jaaee lakhiaa gur gurr dheenaa meet(h)aa ||
kehi kabeer maeree sa(n)kaa naasee sarab nira(n)jan ddeet(h)aa ||4||3||


Prabhaatee:
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||

I dont understand why do they mension Allah?

[Gangster No.1]

Avar's name comes from a shabad in Guru Granth Sahib jee:

prabhaathee ||
aval aleh noor oupaaeiaa kudharath kae sabh ba(n)dhae ||eaek noor thae sabh jag oupajiaa koun bhalae ko ma(n)dhae ||1||
logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab t(h)aa(n)ee ||1|| rehaao ||
maattee eaek anaek bhaa(n)th kar saajee saajanehaarai ||
naa kashh poch maattee kae bhaa(n)ddae naa kashh poch ku(n)bhaarai ||2||
sabh mehi sachaa eaeko soee this kaa keeaa sabh kashh hoee ||
hukam pashhaanai s eaeko jaanai ba(n)dhaa keheeai soee ||3||
alahu alakh n jaaee lakhiaa gur gurr dheenaa meet(h)aa ||
kehi kabeer maeree sa(n)kaa naasee sarab nira(n)jan ddeet(h)aa ||4||3||


Prabhaatee:
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||

I dont understand why do they mension Allah?

why is allah said in the gur grath sahib?

sum1 explain in brief!


also that sikhs name you said is from the guru grath saib, but it spelling is aval aleh noor so why is it as Avar Allah Noor

[- Qatada -]

Thanks for the answers Avar, and ultimate. Can you guys also explain this if you can, do sikhs believe that the Guru's are made out of divine light?


Thanks in advance.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Did the Guru actually speak 2 god?

Indeed. Guru Nanak the first Guru, was in direct communion with God!

[AvarAllahNoor]

I dont understand why do they mension Allah?

why is allah said in the gur grath sahib?

sum1 explain in brief!


also that sikhs name you said is from the Guru Granth Sahib, but it spelling is aval aleh noor so why is it as Avar Allah Noor

It's Guru Granth Sahib thanks! :)

Allah is the name of God. Just as Jehovah, Khuda, Bagwan is. One God many names!

[AvarAllahNoor]

Thanks for the answers Avar, and ultimate. Can you guys also explain this if you can, do sikhs believe that the Guru's are made out of divine light?


Thanks in advance.

The Guru in Sikhism is a perfect Prophet or Messenger of God in whom the Light of God shines fully, visibly and completely. Guru is in union with Divine. Thus he ushers the devotees, the seekers of Truth into a spiritual birth. Through him the Glory of the Lord is transmitted to humanity. On account of his Divine prerogatives, the Guru, though human in form, is Divine in Spirit.

Literally Guru Nanak's body was a platform from which God Himself spoke and delivered His message Gurbani (Divine Word).

God revealeth Himself through (Nanak) Guru

PLEASE NOTE THAT DOES NOT MEAN ANY GURU'S WERE GOD

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Like the trinity in christianity? :?

[AvarAllahNoor]

:salamext:


Like the trinity in christianity? :?

No, they beelive JESUS is God. Sikhs don't say God takes the form of a human. - He's revealed his verses via the Gurus.

[Gangster No.1]

How did the gurus get there revelation? from god? seeked knowldge? where from?

wot is your ideology?

what came before god, what is after life?
what is the relevts of this life, how is god related 2 mankind?

[AvarAllahNoor]

How did the gurus get there revelation? from god? seeked knowldge? where from?

wot is your ideology?

what came before god, what is after life?
what is the relevts of this life, how is god related 2 mankind?

Google it, it's all there in millions of pages. Or check previous threads it's all been covered many times before dude.

:D

[pritsinghs3]

Ok, I've read many posts of Guru Nanak being Muslim that was written by Muslims and many posts by Sikhs being angry and rejecting those posts. Well, my last name is "Singh" so you clearly know what I am. Anyway I'm actually having a different approach to this. First of all, just to give a little introduction, sikhism came into India during the 1500's and Khalsa came in around the 1600's established by Guru Gobind Singh. As far as Monotheism goes (belief of one God) it was brought in India by the Muslims who came from Persia, Middle East, and Afghanistan. Guru Nanak indeed was born in a Hindu family as a Hindu but however started to reject many aspects of it (beliefs, rituals, etc). Being around and being friends with many Muslims, he started to act like them, he started to read the Quran as well because it really caught his attention since it was very different than his own religion (Hinduism). Let's take a moment to analyze this, if one person is use to doing something one way and all of a sudden he is exposed to doing it another way then obviously he will be curious and inquire about it even if he/she doesn’t like it, it's human nature. For example, if you aren’t not friends with someone anymore, and you don’t see them for a long time, if you meet someone who knows them, you're obviously going to ask about them. Anyway, in this case he liked what he read, he learned how to read and write in Arabic as well. Not only did he read the Quran, he had read the Hindu scriptures as well. He had always rejected Hindu beliefs and customs however he never rejected Islamic customs. He had even gone to Mecca and performed Hajj, he had even stopped by Baghdad, stayed for 2 weeks, and performed the Islamic prayers there as well. To be on the safe side I'm not going to say he was Muslim, but the facts say that since the incident of him coming out of the water, he had been chanting "Na koi hindu na muselmaan" and he also started to carry the Quran where ever he went, he also started to wear the Jubba (dressed like a Sufi). It was then when he was rejected by many Hindus including his family, no one understood him. We don't realize what times he had faced, he started out as a runaway with some food, then he started to run out of food and started eating less, then he ran out of food completely and started to take milk from a cow if he saw one, until it came to a point where he starved risking his life. He could have just simply gave in to his father and said "Ok, I accept everything" but he didn't. Anyway after coming back from Mecca he wore a robe that had islamic writings all over it which is still kept at a Gurdwara in India. One thing that I want everyone to know is, GURU NANAK WAS NOT THE FOUNDER OF SIKHISM, FOR GOD SAKE THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB WASN'T EVEN FORMED UNTIL THE 3RD GURU. During the 1st and 2nd Guru's time, THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS SIKHISM, THERE WAS ONLY HINDUISM AND ISLAM, THAT IS A FACT!!!! SO I ASK WHAT RELIGION WAS GURU NANAK THEN REALLY???, IT'S NOT A COINCIDENCE THAT HE WASN'T CREMATED NOR BURIED. I know what he was but it's better if people research, travel seven sea's and FIND OUT for themselves just like I did. Since Guru Nanak was a mystic sufi, just all the other mystic sufi's at the time, he wrote down all of his ideas in poetic form (they did this so people would actually take interest in them). So people ask me, "then why aren't those people in the Guru Granth Sahib as well," well the answer to it is, they were. The main people whose writings were responsible for the formation of the Guru Granth Sahib were Baba Kabir, Baba Farid GanShaker, and Guru Nanak. I mentioned 3 sufi's and 2/3 were PROVEN Muslims (Baba Kabir and Baba Farid). Then people love asking me this "well then there were other Sufi's during Nanak's time and after his time as well, how come those weren't included in the Granth? Well yea that's right there was Baba Bulleh Shah, Baba Sultan Bahu, and Baba Shah Hussain. Well they weren't given much attention by Hindus because THEY WERE NOT HINDUS, Guru Nanak at a point in his life WAS A HINDU, that's why Guru Nanak caught their attention the most. His writings along with Kabir's writings along with Farid's writings come together to be compiled into a book called "Guru Granth Sahib" which ended after the writings of the 9th Guru (Guru Teg Bahadour). My basic message is this, obviously while compiling the Guru Granth Sahib, religion was not looked upon as how this Holy Book was to be written since Hindu’s, Muslims, and Sikhs have contributed to it. So with that said and done, I say that it IS A POSSIBILITY that Guru Nanak could have been a Muslim (don’t get angry, Sikhs) but that’s for every each individual to decide. I’ve already proven that he was not a Sikh (since there WAS no Sikhism at the time). So, for the Muslims I would say “try not to put the Sikhs down” by coming up with some lies (like saying Guru Nanak was married to a Muslim Woman) and for the Sikhs I would say “Try not to let your pride get in the way, if you respect the Gurus then according to the the laws of the Guru Granth Sahib you have to accept the Muslim bhagats as well and Guru Nanak just COULD have been one. It’s now just a matter of opinion since even during Guru Nanak’s leaving to the heavens was a suspense (not cremated no buried) maybe that was the whole purpose.

[doorster]

Ok, I've read many posts of Guru Nanak being Muslim that was written by Muslims and many posts by Sikhs being angry and rejecting those posts. Well, my last name is "Singh" so you clearly know what I am.

Anyway I'm actually having a different approach to this. First of all, just to give a little introduction, sikhism came into India during the 1500's and Khalsa came in around the 1600's established by Guru Gobind Singh. As far as Monotheism goes (belief of one God) it was brought in India by the Muslims who came from Persia, Middle East, and Afghanistan.

Guru Nanak indeed was born in a Hindu family as a Hindu but however started to reject many aspects of it (beliefs, rituals, etc). Being around and being friends with many Muslims, he started to act like them, he started to read the Quran as well because it really caught his attention since it was very different than his own religion (Hinduism).

Let's take a moment to analyse this, if one person is used to doing something one way and all of a sudden he is exposed to doing it another way then obviously he will be curious and inquire about it even if he/she doesn’t like it, it's human nature.

For example, if you aren’t not friends with someone any more, and you don’t see them for a long time, if you meet someone who knows them, you're obviously going to ask about them.

Anyway, in this case he liked what he read, he learned how to read and write in Arabic as well. Not only did he read the Quran, he had read the Hindu scriptures as well. He had always rejected Hindu beliefs and customs however he never rejected Islamic customs. He had even gone to Mecca and performed Hajj, he had even stopped by Baghdad, stayed for 2 weeks, and performed the Islamic prayers there as well.

To be on the safe side I'm not going to say he was Muslim, but the facts say that since the incident of him coming out of the water, he had been chanting "Na koi hindu na muselmaan" and he also started to carry the Quran where ever he went, he also started to wear the Jubba (dressed like a Sufi).

It was then when he was rejected by many Hindus including his family, no one understood him. We don't realize what times he had faced, he started out as a runaway with some food, then he started to run out of food and started eating less, then he ran out of food completely and started to take milk from a cow if he saw one, until it came to a point where he starved risking his life. He could have just simply gave in to his father and said "Ok, I accept everything" but he didn't.

Anyway after coming back from Mecca he wore a robe that had Islamic writings all over it which is still kept at a Gurdwara in India. One thing that I want everyone to know is, GURU NANAK WAS NOT THE FOUNDER OF SIKHISM, FOR GOD SAKE THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB WASN'T EVEN FORMED UNTIL THE 3RD GURU.

During the 1st and 2nd Guru's time, THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS SIKHISM, THERE WAS ONLY HINDUISM AND ISLAM, THAT IS A FACT!!!! SO I ASK WHAT RELIGION WAS GURU NANAK THEN REALLY???, IT'S NOT A COINCIDENCE THAT HE WASN'T CREMATED NOR BURIED.

I know what he was but it's better if people research, travel seven sea's and FIND OUT for themselves just like I did. Since Guru Nanak was a mystic sufi, just all the other mystic sufi's at the time, he wrote down all of his ideas in poetic form (they did this so people would actually take interest in them).

So people ask me, "then why aren't those people in the Guru Granth Sahib as well," well the answer to it is, they were. The main people whose writings were responsible for the formation of the Guru Granth Sahib were Baba Kabir, Baba Farid GanShaker, and Guru Nanak.

I mentioned 3 sufi's and 2/3 were PROVEN Muslims (Baba Kabir and Baba Farid). Then people love asking me this "well then there were other Sufi's during Nanak's time and after his time as well, how come those weren't included in the Granth?

Well yea that's right there was Baba Bulleh Shah, Baba Sultan Bahu, and Baba Shah Hussain. Well they weren't given much attention by Hindus because THEY WERE NOT HINDUS, Guru Nanak at a point in his life WAS A HINDU, that's why Guru Nanak caught their attention the most.

His writings along with Kabir's writings along with Farid's writings come together to be compiled into a book called "Guru Granth Sahib" which ended after the writings of the 9th Guru (Guru Teg Bahadour).

My basic message is this, obviously while compiling the Guru Granth Sahib, religion was not looked upon as how this Holy Book was to be written since Hindu’s, Muslims, and Sikhs have contributed to it. So with that said and done, I say that it IS A POSSIBILITY that Guru Nanak could have been a Muslim (don’t get angry, Sikhs) but that’s for every each individual to decide.

I’ve already proven that he was not a Sikh (since there WAS no Sikhism at the time). So, for the Muslims I would say “try not to put the Sikhs down” by coming up with some lies (like saying Guru Nanak was married to a Muslim Woman) and for the Sikhs I would say “Try not to let your pride get in the way, if you respect the Gurus then according to the the laws of the Guru Granth Sahib you have to accept the Muslim bhagats as well and Guru Nanak just COULD have been one.

It’s now just a matter of opinion since even during Guru Nanak’s leaving to the heavens was a suspense (not cremated no buried) maybe that was the whole purpose.

The best and the only post worth reading in the entire thread
:peace:

[Charzhino]

. My basic message is this, obviously while compiling the Guru Granth Sahib, religion was not looked upon as how this Holy Book was to be written since Hindu’s, Muslims, and Sikhs have contributed to it. So with that said and done, I say that it IS A POSSIBILITY that Guru Nanak could have been a Muslim (don’t get angry, Sikhs) but that’s for every each individual to decide.

I don't really know how you can say he was Muslim when he was a firm believer in the concept of reincarnation and karma. He also believed in the concept that God is everywhere, which Muslims reject.
The reason why he admired the Islamic faith and accepted more of it's teachings was because of it's strong monotheism at the time, in comparison to the Hindu's who had been led far astray from their orginal Vedantic teachings of One God.

[K.Venugopal]

... in comparison to the Hindu's who had been led far astray from their orginal Vedantic teachings of One God.

A small correction. Vedanta does not teach of One God, but of the oneness of existence.

[One Man Army]

The best and the only post worth reading in the entire thread

Whys this? because it helps glorify islam? I would have thought the best post and the only worth reading would be the most accurate? not just something that helps to pump up your own beliefs....

For Mr Singh..
No mate, ur last name being "singh" doesnt clearly state what u r, nor does ur undisclosed 'way of life'. from your post i cant tell u, u aint no sikh even if ur pretending to be.

All ur points have been covered in this thread. Id just be repeating everything all over. Believe what u want, if you are so desperate to claim Guru Nanak ji as your own, then follow his teachings.

[cali dude]

How did the gurus get there revelation? from god? seeked knowldge? where from?

wot is your ideology?

what came before god, what is after life?
what is the relevts of this life, how is god related 2 mankind?

We are bunch of fools. We talk about The Lord who is so great that even all knowledge of this world put together could not describe Him.

I don't think most people even understand what exactly the revelation means. We could understand what it meant only if we had had revelation from The Lord.

If revelation means direct connection with The Lord, meaning The Lord hear you and then The Lord talks to you as well, then I have no reason to believe that anybody had revelation from The Lord...

Sure they were much more enlightened than ordinary people.

If nobody could create a religion that could ever go wrong, then how could they have revelation from something so perfect as The Lord Himself?

This is personal experience as being someone who used to believe in Sikhism. Sikhi is not about equality of all at all. People running Sikhism today still discriminate against non-Sikhs, even those Sikhs with short hair...

I can't say for sure but I have no reason to believe that Christians and Muslims discriminate against people who classify themselves as Christians and Muslims respectively in schools. But I know Sikhs do...

[doorster]

Whys this? because it helps glorify islam? I would have thought the best post and the only worth reading would be the most accurate? not just something that helps to pump up your own beliefs....

For Mr Singh..
No mate, ur last name being "singh" doesnt clearly state what u r, nor does ur undisclosed 'way of life'. from your post i cant tell u, u aint no sikh even if ur pretending to be.

All ur points have been covered in this thread. Id just be repeating everything all over. Believe what u want, if you are so desperate to claim Guru Nanak ji as your own, then follow his teachings.

I replied to this rubbish but it was deleted by that wahbi type Admin -- who cant even make up his mind about his own nick -- because I had tried to differentiate between us (the Hanafi type Muslim Sufis) and those "mystic" soofi friends of Guru Nanak and contributors to the Guru Garanth Sahib.

that helps to pump up your own beliefs....

incorrect, my beliefs are not those of hindu and soofi founders of Sikhism!

[YusufNoor]

I replied to this rubbish but it was deleted by that wahbi type Admin -- who cant even make up his mind about his own nick -- because I had tried to differentiate between us (the Hanafi type Muslim Sufis) and those "mystic" soofi friends of Guru Nanak and contributors to the Guru Garanth Sahib.
incorrect, my beliefs are not those of hindu and soofi founders of Sikhism!

:sl:

BismiAllah ir Rahman ir Raheem
Wal AAasr
Inna al-Insana lafee Khusr
Illa Allatheena AmanoowaAAamiloo assalihati watawasaw bilHaqqiwatawasaw bisSabr

nice to see you brother.

:w:

[جوري]

who in hell is nanak?

[doorster]

who in hell is nanak?

he was a Hindu who wrote against Hindu caste system along with some mystic soofis, whose combined writings went on to form the book "Guru Garanth Sahib" which went on to become Sikhism's holy book at around the time of their third Guru

:w:

:sl:

BismiAllah ir Rahman ir Raheem
Wal AAasr
Inna al-Insana lafee Khusr
Illa Allatheena AmanoowaAAamiloo assalihati watawasaw bilHaqqiwatawasaw bisSabr

nice to see you brother.

:w:

Ditto!
feeling is mutual, jazakAllakhair wasalam alaikum :)

[جوري]

he was a Hindu who wrote against Hindu caste system along with some mystic soofis, whose combined writings went on to form the book "Guru Garanth Shabib" which went on to become Sikhism's holy book at around the time of their third Guru

:w:

:sl:
Jazaka Allah khyran akhi, I certainly gained nothing from this thread, I was rather impressed with the sikh fellow' swaggering show of courage, that I simply had to ask! :D

:w:

[AabiruSabeel]

Last year there was an International gathering of Sikhs in Nanded, Maharashtra, India, and it was said that their 10th book will be opened, which was kept unopened for 100 years since it was written by one of their Gurus. I want to know what was the outcome of it, and what was written in that book, which was kept hidden for 100 years.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Last year there was an International gathering of Sikhs in Nanded, Maharashtra, India, and it was said that their 10th book will be opened, which was kept unopened for 100 years since it was written by one of their Gurus. I want to know what was the outcome of it, and what was written in that book, which was kept hidden for 100 years.

This is a few months old, so had to bump it up.

Not heard of anything of the sort, can you link me up to it? There has been no book that's been left unopened for a 100 years. :hmm:

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

In reference to the deleted posts - let's try to keep the argumentative posts out as we end up getting nowhere.

[indian]

Those who are fond of Guru Nanak Dev Ji can see him and talk to him by the jaap of Mool mantar. Similarly Guru arjun dev ji can be seen by the meditation on "tati vau " mantra

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

Those who are fond of Guru Nanak Dev Ji can see him and talk to him

Do u know any of them ? Pl. tell them to ask if Guru Nanak was a Muslim or not . Also , Muslims don't believe that holy Kaba moved around his feet. May be , Nanak ji can explain the matter to Hindus ?

[suki233]

Salaam/Peace



Do u know any of them ? Pl. tell them to ask if Guru Nanak was a Muslim or not . Also , Muslims don't believe that holy Kaba moved around his feet. May be , Nanak ji can explain the matter to Hindus ?

you will find the answer here

http://searchsikhism.com/islam.html

Please go to the misconceptions hyperlink (second one down)

[Fishman]

you will find the answer here

http://searchsikhism.com/islam.html

Please go to the misconceptions hyperlink (second one down)

:sl:
The fact that so many Sikh sites have this anti-Islamic format is a bit annoying to me, given that the two faiths are very similar in some respects.

[indian]

Salaam/Peace



Do u know any of them ? Pl. tell them to ask if Guru Nanak was a Muslim or not . Also , Muslims don't believe that holy Kaba moved around his feet. May be , Nanak ji can explain the matter to Hindus ?

Actually the kaba incident is a bit different than what is popularly believed.
What actually happened was that Guru nanak dev ji was sleeping with his feet towards kaba. One of the guards came and asked guru nanak dev ji to move his feet away from kaba. Guru nanak dev ji asked what was the reason of that. The guard said that you are keeping your feet towards god. Then guru nanak dev ji said that if that is the case then move my feet to the side where there is no god. Listening to this , the guard was moved and he finally did not move guru nanak dev ji's feet.
This is the accurate incident in my opinion.

And at the time of birth guru nanak dev ji was a hindu. Born to mehta kalu (a khatri hindu).

By the way i haven't ever talked to guru nanak dev ji or guru arjun dev ji but i know people who do talk to them. I recite a different mantra.

[suki233]

:sl:
The fact that so many Sikh sites have this anti-Islamic format is a bit annoying to me, given that the two faiths are very similar in some respects.

The problem is some muslims set up a site called http://sikhs2islam.com/ which spouted lies, just read the conversions stories on their for yourself and make up your own mind if they are true or not

in response to this a site called http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/ was set up to iron out any misconceptions.

and its not that its an anti-islamic format, if someone is spouting lies about sikhism or even islam for that matter its our duty that the truth be told.

many muslims beleive guru nanak was a muslim just because he went to makkah, and people beleive it, he also visited many buddist and hindu religious places, does this make him buddist and hindu aswell??

there have been many reasons on the 2 sites http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/ and http://searchsikhism.com/islam.html but still some people choose not to beleive it.

i read on a website Dr. Zakir Naik has been asked on 3 occasions to visit punjab for a conference about sikhism and islam, for some reason a date has not been set up. He compares islam to hinduism and christanity on many occasions but I have yet to see him do a talk on sikhism.

[Fishman]

The problem is some muslims set up a site called http://sikhs2islam.com/ which spouted lies, just read the conversions stories on their for yourself and make up your own mind if they are true or not

in response to this a site called http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/ was set up to iron out any misconceptions.

and its not that its an anti-islamic format, if someone is spouting lies about sikhism or even islam for that matter its our duty that the truth be told.

many muslims beleive guru nanak was a muslim just because he went to makkah, and people beleive it, he also visited many buddist and hindu religious places, does this make him buddist and hindu aswell??

there have been many reasons on the 2 sites http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/ and http://searchsikhism.com/islam.html but still some people choose not to beleive it.

i read on a website Dr. Zakir Naik has been asked on 3 occasions to visit punjab for a conference about sikhism and islam, for some reason a date has not been set up. He compares islam to hinduism and christanity on many occasions but I have yet to see him do a talk on sikhism.

I've been on sikhs2Islam a bit as well, and they are also very annoying.

I've read some things about Guru Nanak, and it is pretty obvious that he was a very good man. No wonder different religions want to claim him. Muslims claim him to convert the Sikhs, and Hindus claim him because of petty nationalism, it seems.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

...
he also visited many buddist and hindu religious places, does this make him buddist and hindu aswell??

Only Muslims are allowed to enter holy Kaaba. So ,if he really went there , it means he embraced Islam unless he hide his identity or lied to Muslims. It's hard to believe that a respected person like him did any of this or may be , he did not go there at all.

[cat eyes]

do sikhs believe in any of the holy prophets?:)

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

... guru nanak dev ji said that if that is the case then move my feet to the side where there is no god.

I read that he went to a hindu's holy place where all were throwing water towards a specific side but Guru Nanak did the opposite. When asked the reason, he said something like that show me a way where God is not present. Anyway , Muslims don't believe that God resides inside the Kaaba.

Earlier several Sikhs told us holy kaaba moved around the Guru ji's feet. If really Sikhs or Hindus can talk to Guru ji , easy solution to stop the dispute is to ask him directly - if he really went to Macca , why , how ( as a Muslim or disguised himself as a Muslilm ) and what happened there really.

[Fishman]

Salaam/Peace




Only Muslims are allowed to enter holy Kaaba. So ,if he really went there , it means he embraced Islam unless he hide his identity or lied to Muslims. It's hard to believe that a respected person like him did any of this or may be , he did not go there at all.

Before modern oil wealth and fascist Saudi takfiris, it wasn't exactly hard for somebody who wasn't a Muslim to enter Makkah. Guru Nanak Dev Ji had a beard, he wore clothes similar to those of Muslims and his beliefs were pretty similar too. It would take some kind of serious inquistion to stop somebody like him getting in, which they didn't have in those days.

Muslims don't believe that God resides inside the Kaaba

.
Muslims still regard it as the House of Allah in a metaphoric sense though. And some rather confused Muslims think that Allah is up in the sky directly above the Kaaba anyway.

Earlier several Sikhs told us holy kaaba moved around the Guru ji's feet. If really Sikhs or Hindus can talk to Guru ji , easy solution to stop the dispute is to ask him directly - if he really went to Macca , why , how ( as a Muslim or disguised himself as a Muslilm ) and what happened there really.

You could just read about it instead. It was a pretty simple matter to get into Makkah in those days, as I said above. True, Francis Burton needed to go to extreme lengths, but he was a western Christian and therefore appeared very different to a Muslim and would have aroused suspicions. Guru Nanak Dev Ji, on the other hand, didn't.

[suki233]

Salaam/Peace




Only Muslims are allowed to enter holy Kaaba. So ,if he really went there , it means he embraced Islam unless he hide his identity or lied to Muslims. It's hard to believe that a respected person like him did any of this or may be , he did not go there at all.

I think I mentioned before to read on this link about why and how guru nanak went to mecca.

http://searchsikhism.com/islam2.html

[Charzhino]

do sikhs believe in any of the holy prophets?:)

No Abrahamic prophet is mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib apart from Muhammed and Adam. It doesn't really matter to a Sikh if they believe in a prophet or not that was sent to a particular group of people, the main focus is attention to God.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

I think I mentioned before to read on this link about why and how guru nanak went to mecca.

http://searchsikhism.com/islam2.html

It's a long article and sadly I don't have patience to read the details. Few lines : ....Guru Ji wore Muslim clothes and wore a style of turban that Muslim priests wear. This made him look like a Muslim priest. He always carried His scripture with Him......Muslims thought He was carrying a copy of Quran. In fact, he was not. It was the only way to get in.

My question is why a respected person like him cheated Muslim ? If he was not a Muslim , why he wore dress like Muslims and entered their holy place when he knew that according to holy Quran , non-Muslims are not allowed to enter there. What right he had to disguised himself as a Muslim ?

behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving. All got surprised and they all bowed.

There are many weak faith Muslims like me . If our holy Kaaba started moving around a non-Muslim , after seeing that many ( minimum thousands ) Muslims surely have left Islam. Do u know any convert story of Muslims to Hinduism or Sikhism after this incident ?

he left his slippers which the priest kept inside Mecca that time.

It's hard to believe. Muslims enter in to any mosque removing sliipers/ shoes. This article claims that Muslims kept slippers of a non-Muslims inside the kaaba ???? I don't think , Muslims were that liberal ever.

So , again my request to hindus and Sikhs who talk to Guru Nanak ji often or regularly , pl. ask him what happened there .

[Fishman]

It's a long article and sadly I don't have patience to read the details. Few lines : ....Guru Ji wore Muslim clothes and wore a style of turban that Muslim priests wear. This made him look like a Muslim priest. He always carried His scripture with Him......Muslims thought He was carrying a copy of Quran. In fact, he was not. It was the only way to get in.

My question is why a respected person like him cheated Muslim ? If he was not a Muslim , why he wore dress like Muslims and entered their holy place when he knew that according to holy Quran , non-Muslims are not allowed to enter there. What right he had to disguised himself as a Muslim ?

Because they wouldn't let him in otherwise. If I shaved my beard and took off my Topi, I could infiltrate quite a lot of places where I would be very unwelcome normally, and let them hear a good message. Would that make me a bad or dishonest person?

There are many weak faith Muslims like me . If our holy Kaaba started moving around a non-Muslim , after seeing that many ( minimum thousands ) Muslims surely have left Islam. Do u know any convert story of Muslims to Hinduism or Sikhism after this incident ?

The article says that the Muslims who saw the miracle regarded the Guru as a Pir (which won't go down well here), and greatly respected him. They believed that his teachings fitted with Islam, and didn't need to leave the faith.

It's hard to believe. Muslims enter in to any mosque removing sliipers/ shoes. This article claims that Muslims kept slippers of a non-Muslims inside the kaaba ???? I don't think , Muslims were that liberal ever.

He didn't go inside the Kaaba, nowhere does the article say so. And even if he did, he wouldn't have had to have been wearing the slippers there for the 'priest' to keep them.

As for the slippers being kept inside the Kaaba:
1. Nowhere does the article state that.
2. The Sandals and other artefacts of the Prophet (peace be upon him) are kept in Mosques and Mazaars in different places. The slippers of a 'Pir' would likely have been given similar respect.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

Would that make me a bad or dishonest person?

If u know there is a holy temple / place of Hindus or Buddists or Sikhs and according to their holy books, Muslims are not allowed to enter there , then u must not hide ur identity to enter there.

It will hurt their feelings and if they catch u , it may create unrest between people of the two faiths. U can preach outside the holy area.

The article says that the Muslims who saw the miracle regarded the Guru as a Pir (which won't go down well here), and greatly respected him.

So , u believe holy kaaba moved around a non-Muslims feet ? To my knowledge , holy kaaba never moved for any Prophet pbut , how come Muslim's holiest mosque did so for a non-Muslim ?


.

As for the slippers being kept inside the Kaaba:
1. Nowhere does the article state that.
.

sorry I mixed up this article with other article I read before where it stated that slipppers were kept inside the Kaaba .

I browse now and found this : The Guru gave him his pair of sandals. They were respectfully kept in the Kaaba for some time.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_in_Mecca

I never heard that sandals of any Pir or even sandals of Prophet Muhammed pbuh were kept inside the mosque. Since when Muslims became so liberal to kept sandals of a non-Muslims in the Kaaba ?

[Charzhino]

:sl:



If u know there is a holy temple / place of Hindus or Buddists or Sikhs and according to their holy books, Muslims are not allowed to enter there , then u must not hide ur identity to enter there.

It will hurt their feelings and if they catch u , it may create unrest between people of the two faiths. U can preach outside the holy area.

According to Guru Nanak, everyone had a right to believe in God, no one religion had a monopoly over him. He visisted Buddhist shrines, Hindu temples and of course the Muslim pilgramage site, because he wanted to spread his message. There is a story of him joining in the Salat prayer in a Mosque when requested by a Shaikh which he accepted, because he would enjoy and fully particpate in places and acts of worhsip where God was rememebred, regardless of the religion.

Since he was going to Mecca, he would carry the Quran around with him which he had studied and read extensivly, as well as dressing in typical Muslim clothes with his various Muslim companions. So it was not exatcly hard to enter Mecca in the 14/15th century under this condition.

:
So , u believe holy kaaba moved around a non-Muslims feet ? To my knowledge , holy kaaba never moved for any Prophet pbut , how come Muslim's holiest mosque did so for a non-Muslim ?

We don;t know whether it occured but it doesn't matter if it did or not, the key point in the story is the message behind it. It could be metaphorical/allergorical or literal but the message is still the same.

[Fishman]

If u know there is a holy temple / place of Hindus or Buddists or Sikhs and according to their holy books, Muslims are not allowed to enter there , then u must not hide ur identity to enter there.

It will hurt their feelings and if they catch u , it may create unrest between people of the two faiths. U can preach outside the holy area.

What Charzhino said.

So , u believe holy kaaba moved around a non-Muslims feet ? To my knowledge , holy kaaba never moved for any Prophet pbut , how come Muslim's holiest mosque did so for a non-Muslim ?


.

Allah does what He wills.

sorry I mixed up this article with other article I read before where it stated that slipppers were kept inside the Kaaba .

I browse now and found this : The Guru gave him his pair of sandals. They were respectfully kept in the Kaaba for some time.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_in_Mecca

This seems quite a decent website.

I never heard that sandals of any Pir or even sandals of Prophet Muhammed pbuh were kept inside the mosque.

And you have nothing to prove that relics haven't been kept in the Kaaba in the past. Which brings us to an impasse.

Since when Muslims became so liberal to kept sandals of a non-Muslims in the Kaaba ?

The people of Makkah didn't think he was a non-Muslim, they thought he was a Pir.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

According to Guru Nanak, everyone had a right to believe in God, no one religion had a monopoly over him.

Of Course but it does not mean that if Muslims believe God forbids non-Muslims to enter in to their holiest mosque , one should disguised himself as a Muslim to go there. Other mosques are open for all. Now a days , for safety reason , holy mosque at Madina is only reserved for Muslims.

There is a story of him joining in the Salat prayer in a Mosque when requested by a Shaikh

as already stated , other mosques are open for all. Prophet Muhammed pbuh allowed Christians groups to stay at Madina mosque . They were there for 3 days and nights. Only exception is holy kaaba.

Since he was going to Mecca, he would carry the Quran around with him which he had studied and read extensivly,

the link one posted says he was carrying his own scripture , not the holy Quran- He always carried His scripture with Him......Muslims thought He was carrying a copy of Quran. In fact, he was not. It was the only way to get in.


Fishman : Allah does what He wills.

Most probably , you are the only Muslim in this world who believes holy kaaba moved around a non-Muslims feet. How come , this miracle is not reported by any Muslim but found in Sikh's sites only ? Bad Muslims are hiding this miracle from others ?? yak :heated:

[Charzhino]

Salaam/Peace
Of Course but it does not mean that if Muslims believe God forbids non-Muslims to enter in to their holiest mosque , one should disguised himself as a Muslim to go there. Other mosques are open for all. Now a days , for safety reason , holy mosque at Madina is only reserved for Muslims.
As already stated , other mosques are open for all. Prophet Muhammed pbuh allowed Christians groups to stay at Madina mosque . They were there for 3 days and nights. Only exception is holy kaaba.

Why what's the difference? What make's one more sacred ground than the other than one non-muslim cannot enter?

the link one posted says he was carrying his own scripture , not the holy Quran- He always carried His scripture with Him......Muslims thought He was carrying a copy of Quran. In fact, he was not. It was the only way to get in.

I don't know about the accuracy of that website, the Sikh scripture wasn't formed until after Guru Nanaks death, he was most likely carrying the Quran.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ Peace

Why what's the difference? What make's one more sacred ground than the other than one non-muslim cannot enter?
.

We believe , holy Quran is the final holy book of God Almighty. We must obey His all commands including this : O you who believe, indeed the Mushrikoon are unclean so do not let them approach al-Masjid al-Haraam after this year [at-Tawbah: chapter 9 , verse 28]




a related link:
Dr. Zakir Naik - Question Hour
Islamic Voice - DHU'L QADAH / DHU'L HAJJ Why the non-Muslims are not permitted to enter the holy cities of Makkah and Madinah?

Shah Alam Makandar, Belgaum, alam_mak@rediff mail.com

Ans. It is true that non-Muslims are not allowed in the holy cities of Makkah and Madinah, by law. The following points will serve to elucidate the possible reasoning behind such a restriction.





1. All citizens are not permitted in the cantonment area





I am a citizen of India. Yet, I am not permitted to enter certain restricted areas like the cantonment. In every country there are certain areas where a common citizen of that country cannot enter.



Only a citizen who is enrolled in the military or those who are connected with the defence of the country are allowed in the cantonment area. Similarly Islam is a Universal Religion for the entire world and for all human beings. The cantonment areas of Islam are the two holy cites of Makkah and Madinah. Here only those who believe in Islam and are involved in the defence of Islam i.e. the Muslims are allowed.





It would be illogical for a common citizen to object to the restriction on entering a cantonment area. Similarly it is not appropriate for non-Muslims to object to the restriction on them to enter Makkah and Madinah


.
2. Visa to enter Makkah and Madinah





a. Whenever a person travels to a foreign country, he has to first apply for a visa i.e. the permission to enter that country. Every country has its own rules, regulations and requirements for issuing a visa. Unless their criteria are satisfied they will not issue a visa.





b. One of the countries, which are very strict in issuing a visa, is the United States of America, especially when issuing visas to citizens of the third world. They have several conditions and requirements to be fulfilled before they issue a visa.





c. When I visited Singapore, it was mentioned on their immigration form - death to drug traffickers. If I want to visit Singapore I have to abide by the rules. I cannot say that death penalty is a barbaric punishment. Only if I agree with their requirements and conditions will I be permitted to enter the country.





d. The Visa - The primary condition required for any human being to enter Makkah or Madina is to say with his lips, 'La ila ha illallah Muhammad ur Rasulullah' which means 'there is no God but Allah and Muhammed (pbuh) is His Messenger.'





http://www.islamicvoice.com/february.2004/zakir.htm

[جوري]

Makkah and Medina aren't a tourist attraction, perhaps that is the difference.. people go on waiting lists for years and save their pennies to make this last religious rite, and still every year it is very crowded, I can't think of a single good reason why non-Muslims should be allowed there?
exactly what are you looking for? if you are not going to perform an actual pillar of the religion then you have no use whatsoever being there.. you want to visit a mosque then any regular mosque is open for you, the same rituals and sermons (with variations in subject) occur in all of them.. Unless you are a Muslim pilgrim who can afford to make this last religious rite then you are forbidden from entry if nothing else then for mere practical reasons, and we shouldn't have to be made to explain them as it is common sense...

thank you sr. Muslim woman, may Allah swt bestow his peace and blessings upon you..

:wa:

[One Man Army]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa, Vaheguru ji ki fateh

id like to start by saying im glad to see a constructive conversation taking place rather then bashing beliefs thats do not agree with our own. Iv particularly enjoyed reading fishmans posts.

its bin a while since iv posted and i havent got long to write this reply. just like to clear a few things up.

Sikhs have some very authentic sources of their history hand written by Guru Nanak jis companians and sikh scholars from the times of the gurus who are respected very highly in the sikh faith.

namedly two of these sources are Bhai Bala jis janam sakhis, and Bhai Gurdaas jis vaars.
Bhai gurdaas jis vaars can be found online. Bhai bala ji was Guru Nanak jis companian as well as the muslim bhai mardana ji.

Bhai Gurdaas has mentioned the carrying of a scripture by Guru Nanak ji, This was not the holy Quran, but was the first original additon of the devine scritpure of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Guru Nanak ji wrote the revalations he recieved in this book. Heres bhai gurdaas jis account of events:

Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,
the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca revolved (around Guru Nanak ji feet).
All bowed in amazement
Qazi and maulvis got together and began discussing religion.
A great fantasy has been created and no one could understood its mystery.
They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book whether Hindu is great or the Muslim.
Baba replied to the pilgrim hajis, that, without good deeds both will have to weep and wail.
By being a Hindu or a Muslim one can not get accepted in the court of the Lord.
As the colour of safflower is impermanent and is washed away in water, likewise the colours of religiosity are also temporary.
(Followers of both the religions) In their expositions, denounce Ram and Rahim (Muhammad Sahib).
The whole of the world is following the ways of Satan.(33)


The book wasnt the quran as previously mentioned. I will post more later, run out of time, lunch break over! sorry

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

.... the whole of Mecca revolved (around Guru Nanak ji feet).
All bowed in amazement

All Muslims bowed to Guru Nanak ? :hmm:

[Muslimlearner]

Is there a historical evidence for this stories ??

[SQUID]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa, Vaheguru ji ki fateh


Sikhs have some very authentic sources of their history hand written by Guru Nanak jis companians and sikh scholars from the times of the gurus who are respected very highly in the sikh faith.



Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,
the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca revolved (around Guru Nanak ji feet).
All bowed in amazement
Qazi and maulvis got together and began discussing religion.
A great fantasy has been created and no one could understood its mystery.
They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book whether Hindu is great or the Muslim.
Baba replied to the pilgrim hajis, that, without good deeds both will have to weep and wail.
By being a Hindu or a Muslim one can not get accepted in the court of the Lord.
As the colour of safflower is impermanent and is washed away in water, likewise the colours of religiosity are also temporary.
(Followers of both the religions) In their expositions, denounce Ram and Rahim .
The whole of the world is following the ways of Satan.(33)


The book wasnt the quran as previously mentioned. I will post more later, run out of time, lunch break over! sorry

kindly provide online source of this !

[Islam-Sikhism]

Asalaamu 'alaikum,

Please visit our website and let everyone know about it since it specifically deals with Sikhism, its theology, soteriology, historicity, etc.

http://www.islam-sikhism.info

wa salaam

['Abd Al-Maajid]

Thank you for clarifying...I too thought that he was Muslim and some of his teaching were in fact Islamic.
Thank You..

['Abd Al-Maajid]

And Muslims don't torture themselves by fasting....

[cali dude]

Well I don't know if Guru Nanak was Muslim but according to Sikhs, he was Lord Himself which of course is a false claim.

So, if Jesus was son of Lord and then Guru Nanak was Lord Himself. That makes Jesus son of Nanak...

I would like to hear from non-Sikhs what they think of Sikhs' claim that Nanak was Lord Himself....

[cali dude]

Oye Sikho, tuhaanu ki hoyiya?

I am just starting to have fun...

[CosmicPathos]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa, Vaheguru ji ki fateh

id like to start by saying im glad to see a constructive conversation taking place rather then bashing beliefs thats do not agree with our own. Iv particularly enjoyed reading fishmans posts.

its bin a while since iv posted and i havent got long to write this reply. just like to clear a few things up.

Sikhs have some very authentic sources of their history hand written by Guru Nanak jis companians and sikh scholars from the times of the gurus who are respected very highly in the sikh faith.

namedly two of these sources are Bhai Bala jis janam sakhis, and Bhai Gurdaas jis vaars.
Bhai gurdaas jis vaars can be found online. Bhai bala ji was Guru Nanak jis companian as well as the muslim bhai mardana ji.

Bhai Gurdaas has mentioned the carrying of a scripture by Guru Nanak ji, This was not the holy Quran, but was the first original additon of the devine scritpure of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Guru Nanak ji wrote the revalations he recieved in this book. Heres bhai gurdaas jis account of events:

Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,
the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca revolved (around Guru Nanak ji feet).
All bowed in amazement
Qazi and maulvis got together and began discussing religion.
A great fantasy has been created and no one could understood its mystery.
They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book whether Hindu is great or the Muslim.
Baba replied to the pilgrim hajis, that, without good deeds both will have to weep and wail.
By being a Hindu or a Muslim one can not get accepted in the court of the Lord.
As the colour of safflower is impermanent and is washed away in water, likewise the colours of religiosity are also temporary.
(Followers of both the religions) In their expositions, denounce Ram and Rahim (Muhammad Sahib).
The whole of the world is following the ways of Satan.(33)


The book wasnt the quran as previously mentioned. I will post more later, run out of time, lunch break over! sorry

These kind of superstitions can also be found in other Sufi books. I remember reading one book of Ismaili Sufis from pakistan written about 200 years ago for my scholarly purposes and came across many such myths. This myths are nothing but to persuade gullible people.

Adi Granth has been written over centuries, its has evolved and is certainly not pure, like the Quran. This story you mentioned most probably have been added later as Muslim orthodoxy in South Asia gained stronghold during Aurangzeb's empire. It could be that Sikh rulers wanted to deviate Muslim laymen from the orthodox Sunni Islam and hence they added this story of Guru Nanak about humanity, pernnialism etc.

uddan Sikh vadiya loki hagain.

[cali dude]

These kind of superstitions can also be found in other Sufi books. I remember reading one book of Ismaili Sufis from pakistan written about 200 years ago for my scholarly purposes and came across many such myths. This myths are nothing but to persuade gullible people.

Adi Granth has been written over centuries, its has evolved and is certainly not pure, like the Quran. This story you mentioned most probably have been added later as Muslim orthodoxy in South Asia gained stronghold during Aurangzeb's empire. It could be that Sikh rulers wanted to deviate Muslim laymen from the orthodox Sunni Islam and hence they added this story of Guru Nanak about humanity, pernnialism etc.

uddan Sikh vadiya loki hagain.

Now the fact is that Bhai Gurdas was born after Guru Nanak had already died. Therefore, he obviously didn't eyewitness what happened in Mecca.

[SQUID]

Oye Sikho, tuhaanu ki hoyiya?

I am just starting to have fun...

Sikhan tey ji rehmat hai oss parvardigaar di ,


Chardi kla

wahe guru ji ka Khalsa
wahe guru ji ki Fateh :statisfie

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Sikhan tey ji rehmat hai oss parvardigaar di ,


Chardi kla

wahe guru ji ka Khalsa
wahe guru ji ki Fateh :statisfie

Musalmaana te vi upar wale di rehmat...

Sorry i jus felt like doing that Lol.

[Islam-Sikhism]

Asalaamu 'alaikum,

We're in the process of covering this topic in great detail, as well as examining the 'aqeedah of those Muslims whose works were incorporated into the Adi Granth.

insha'Allaah, we'll let you know once it is published.

For the moment, we have a related survey published on our site asking Muslims if they believe Guru Nanak was a Muslim. This could perhaps be the first statistical analysis of its kind on this subject so we would encourage everyone here and especially this thread to visit our website and vote.

Jazakumullaahu khairan.

wa salaam

[CosmicPathos]

Musalmaana te vi upar wale di rehmat...

Sorry i jus felt like doing that Lol.

lol.

changa ai.