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Showkat
03-02-2007, 11:11 AM
Appeal Over Baby Named Jihad

The German interior ministry is appealing against a decision by the Berlin authorities to allow an Islamist to name his son Jihad, the Arabic word used for holy war.

Reda Seyam fought for 18 months for permission to give his sixth child the name after the registry in the Berlin district of Charlottenburg initially rejected his application, saying the name was inappropriate because of its association with terrorism, and "may endanger the child".

This week a court overturned the ruling, on the grounds that Jihad was "a recognised male forename in the Arab world and loved by Muslims".

Mr Seyam, 47, a self-declared Islamist, was shown on television this week presenting his son. Grinning into the camera, Jihad on his knee, he said: "You had barely come into the world and you were in court. Your fight has already begun."

In the same programme he defended the terror attacks on the United States on September 11 2001, and on Bali in 2002.

Germany has strict rules governing the naming of children. Parents have to choose from a list of court-approved names, to prevent a child from becoming a victim of ridicule or confusion. The names Hitler and Stalin are banned, and in 2002 a Turkish couple living in Germany were denied permission to name their child Osama bin Laden.

Berlin's interior minister, Erhart Körting, said a court that allowed "a father who has welcomed al-Qaida attacks to name his child in this way has underestimated in an appallingly naive manner the meaning of this name".

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/ar...023810,00.html

Comment:

So it seems to name your child after cartoon characters, George Bush or Tony Blair is ok. But to name them based on Islamic terms like " Jihad" or even Usamah Bin Laden is not allowed. Even names like Adolph Hitlet and Stalin are also banned.

Hard to believe that all this is happening in Europe in 2007 which is supposed to be a place of freedom and the right to act and do as u please, but obviously not for certain sections of its citizens.

We have had western politicians dictating to Muslim women what they can and cannot wear and now we have them telling us what we can and cannot call our children. Names like Hitler and Stalin have been banned, yet western politicians are behaving exactly like those two despots did.

I disagree with glorifying 9/11 and Bali attacks, but surely people are entitled to free thought and opinions based on their ideological inclinations?

Or is this the beginning of thought control in Europe?

Quite funny that Europeans ask Muslims to have a reformation which they went through in the middle ages when they divided church from state because it was dictating to people what they could and could not think about and yet they are doing the same thing , this time in the name of Secularism.
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Umar001
03-02-2007, 03:30 PM
Appeal over baby named Jihad


Kate Connolly in Berlin
Thursday March 1, 2007
The Guardian

The German interior ministry is appealing against a decision by the Berlin authorities to allow an Islamist to name his son Jihad, the Arabic word used for holy war.

Reda Seyam fought for 18 months for permission to give his sixth child the name after the registry in the Berlin district of Charlottenburg initially rejected his application, saying the name was inappropriate because of its association with terrorism, and "may endanger the child".

This week a court overturned the ruling, on the grounds that Jihad was "a recognised male forename in the Arab world and loved by Muslims".

Mr Seyam, 47, a self-declared Islamist, was shown on television this week presenting his son. Grinning into the camera, Jihad on his knee, he said: "You had barely come into the world and you were in court. Your fight has already begun."

In the same programme he defended the terror attacks on the United States on September 11 2001, and on Bali in 2002.

Germany has strict rules governing the naming of children. Parents have to choose from a list of court-approved names, to prevent a child from becoming a victim of ridicule or confusion. The names Hitler and Stalin are banned, and in 2002 a Turkish couple living in Germany were denied permission to name their child Osama bin Laden.

Berlin's interior minister, Erhart Körting, said a court that allowed "a father who has welcomed al-Qaida attacks to name his child in this way has underestimated in an appallingly naive manner the meaning of this name".

Emphasis Mine :)

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/ar...023810,00.html
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NoName55
03-02-2007, 06:13 PM
:sl:

Q: What is the difference between Mr Seyam and The psychiatrist/self appointed scholar who recently issued "fatwah" on vaccines?

A:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-02-2007, 06:17 PM
Maybe they should learn what Jihad means in the correct Islamic context, not the Western context.
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wilberhum
03-02-2007, 06:21 PM
Jihad, the Arabic word used for holy war.
How many times have I heard that Jihad does not mean holy war?
Why on comments on this?
Well someone just did.

I disagree with glorifying 9/11 and Bali attacks
And I disagree with glorifying Bosnian ethnic cleansing.
Reply

- Qatada -
03-02-2007, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
How many times have I heard that Jihad does not mean holy war?
Why on comments on this?
Well someone just did.

And I disagree with glorifying Bosnian ethnic cleansing.

Jihad means struggle and it comes from the word Jaahada, to strive ones utmost. :)

Qur'an Surah Luqman: 31:15

Yusuf Ali: "But if they strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did."

Transliteration: Wa-in jahadaka AAala antushrika bee ma laysa laka bihi AAilmun fala tutiAAhumawasahibhuma fee addunya maAAroofanwattabiAA sabeela man anaba ilayya thumma ilayyamarjiAAukum faonabbi-okum bima kuntum taAAmaloon


Regards.
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Talha777
03-02-2007, 06:31 PM
I think if I have a son I'll name him Muhammad Usama Jihad
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wilberhum
03-02-2007, 06:37 PM
Jihad means struggle and it comes from the word Jaahada, to strive ones utmost.
I know. That is why I was so amazed that no one commented on the mis-defination.
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SATalha
03-02-2007, 06:40 PM
My cuz's name is Jihad?
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AHMED_GUREY
03-02-2007, 06:50 PM
i like Jahaada better cause calling him Jihad in a western country at this moment is not very wise or safe for the baby in question and his future, i was named after the last Prophet pbuh and i allready get eyeballed for that. Think about what this little brother will go through when he grows up
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SATalha
03-02-2007, 06:53 PM
Yeah i know what you mean. I thought about what my Cuz will go through in the future? In school and so on, But its his name so he should be proud. If you think about it, its a great name to have JIHAD=Strive.
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Talha777
03-02-2007, 06:53 PM
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Respectfully brother Ahmed_Gurey, if you are named after the Holy Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) you should never feel ashamed of this, no matter how much you are harrassed by the disbelievers. In fact, you should take pleasure in suffering for the sake of your Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) and for the sake of your religion.
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SATalha
03-02-2007, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Respectfully brother Ahmed_Gurey, if you are named after the Holy Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) you should never feel ashamed of this, no matter how much you are harrassed by the disbelievers. In fact, you should take pleasure in suffering for the sake of your Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) and for the sake of your religion.
Ameen bro....nice name by the way
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tomtomsmom
03-02-2007, 06:54 PM
On the one side, people should be able to name their kids whatever they want. But then on the other hand, you have to think of the kids. With names like that they will be picked on constantly growing up. As adults they could be looked down at for names like that.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-02-2007, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I know. That is why I was so amazed that no one commented on the mis-defination.
I did :X Maybe u missed it lol.

Maybe they should learn what Jihad means in the correct Islamic context, not the Western context.
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SATalha
03-02-2007, 06:57 PM
Employer- Hello are you hear for the interview
Jihad- yes
Employer- what is your name?
Jihad- My name.....Jihad
Employer- What....JIHAD
....I think you know what happens next
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-02-2007, 07:00 PM
^^:lol: :p
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AHMED_GUREY
03-02-2007, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Respectfully brother Ahmed_Gurey, if you are named after the Holy Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) you should never feel ashamed of this, no matter how much you are harrassed by the disbelievers. In fact, you should take pleasure in suffering for the sake of your Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) and for the sake of your religion.
:sl:
Don't get me wrong brother i love my name and in reality don't really care about the negative vibes projected at me but i was thinking about the difference in Jaahada and Jihad and the consequences for this child living in a Western country

after reading my post i do understand why you thought i was somehow implying i'm ashamed but that wasn't my intention since this isn't the case.

:w:
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SATalha
03-02-2007, 07:03 PM
What ever the case all it takes is a bit of research and find out what the name means. I mean if it was something like War being his name than one thing. But its not its Jihad :D
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Woodrow
03-02-2007, 07:10 PM
I may have over looked something. But, in reading the first sentence, it is not the parents appealing.

The German interior ministry is appealing against a decision by the Berlin authorities to allow an Islamist to name his son Jihad, the Arabic word used for holy war.
Berlin had already approved the parents naming the boy Jihad. It is the German Interior ministry that is appealing that decision.
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SATalha
03-02-2007, 07:13 PM
What is the world comming to, what if i was to name my son Osama. What would happen coz i realy like the name.:nervous:
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Sami Zaatari
03-02-2007, 07:27 PM
dont worry about europe, they are just scared and trying to stop the inevitable. in 100 years europe will belong to Islam and shall be Islamic, and they are doing whatever they can to stop this, by banning Islamic religious rites, banning Islamic names, etc etc etc.
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NoName55
03-02-2007, 07:30 PM
prophecies prophecies prophecies

ROFL
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Ra`eesah
03-02-2007, 07:36 PM
Assalamu'Alaykum

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Call yourselves by the names of the Prophets. The names dearest to Allah are Abdullah and AbdurRahman, the truest are Harith and Hammam, and the worst are Harb and Murrah. -Hadith - Abu Dawood, Narrated AbuWahb al-Jushami
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- Qatada -
03-02-2007, 07:46 PM
:salamext:


Abdullah = worshipper/slave of Allaah.

Abdur Rahmaan = worshipper/slave of the Compassionate.


I dont know about Harith and Hammaan, but Harb means war, and i don't know Harrah either.



But anyway, if someone wanted to name their child with the title Jihaad, i think Mujaahid is more appropriate? [because it comes from the same root word] Allaah knows best.
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NoName55
03-02-2007, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


Abdullah = worshipper/slave of Allaah.

Abdur Rahmaan = worshipper/slave of the Compassionate.


I dont know about Harith and Hammaan, but Harb means war, and i don't know Harrah either.



But anyway, if someone wanted to name their child with the title Jihaad, i think Mujaahid is more appropriate? [because it comes from the same root word] Allaah knows best.
:sl:
HARITH حارث m Arabic
Means "good provider" in Arabic.

http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/ara.php

:w:
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united
03-02-2007, 09:31 PM
I know someone named Jihad but now calls himself Jawad officially for obvious reasons. I think its pretty sad.
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strider
03-02-2007, 09:34 PM
Freedom to act as you please comes with responsibility; i can understand why the courts would want to ban such a provocative name.
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KAding
03-03-2007, 12:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Maybe they should learn what Jihad means in the correct Islamic context, not the Western context.
But he's living in the West, shouldn't he also look at the meaning in a Western context then?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 01:19 AM
Why should Western context or definition of Jihad matter when its wrong in the first place? The West considers Jihad to mean holy war, which is not right. So why should a person not keep the name because someone mis defines it?
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tomtomsmom
03-03-2007, 01:26 AM
As a mother, I want my child to have the easiest life possible. If I could I would put him in a bubble and never let him see the bad that is in this world. Even though it may not mean holy war that is the way it is perceived. So this child would have to put up with all kind of abuse. It is like starting them out in this world with a strike already against them. Kinda like naming your kid Dick. It is an ok name but would you want to go through life with those kind of jokes?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 01:32 AM
As if I'm scared. Just cause people are ignorant and dont know what it really means, it isnt exactly my fault. I wouldnt let idiots stop me from keeping a name that has a such a wonderful meaning. Just like the example u gave me, i know what u mean, but im not stupid to make fun of someone cuz they have that name. What people percieve the name to be isnt going to change what it actually means.
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tomtomsmom
03-03-2007, 01:38 AM
Sis I didn't say it was your fault that people are stupid. But the fact of the matter is some people are. For me a parents number one mission is to keep their children safe. Giving a child a name that, right or wrong, is thought of as having to do with a holy war is not protecting that child. If it were in a country that the majority of people knew what it meant then perhaps it might not be so bad. But in countries that most believe in means holy war, then that child is going to go through hell. That is the kind of name that gets you jumped in a back alley and beaten to death. No it isn't right, but that is the world that we live in.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 01:43 AM
^I get what u mean sis.
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Talha777
03-03-2007, 02:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tomtomsmom
As a mother, I want my child to have the easiest life possible. If I could I would put him in a bubble and never let him see the bad that is in this world. Even though it may not mean holy war that is the way it is perceived. So this child would have to put up with all kind of abuse. It is like starting them out in this world with a strike already against them
This is a touchy subject. But my belief is that we can never sacrifice our dignity and love for our Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) or allow ourselves to be bullied to not manifest our love for him and our religion. You place greater value on giving your child the easiest life possible, but a Muslim places utmost value on pleasing Allah. The Holy Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) told this community that we have to love him more than our own parents and our own children. Look how when Allah commanded Abraham (alaihi salam) to sacrifice his first born son, he unhesitatingly and unquestionably submitted to the command of his Lord. All Muslims should strive for similar faith, and let nothing, including their children, be an obstacle to that:

O ye who believe! Let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance of Allah. If any act thus, the loss is their own.
(Al-Munafiqun 63:9)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 02:06 AM
^^Yea
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tomtomsmom
03-03-2007, 02:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

This is a touchy subject. But my belief is that we can never sacrifice our dignity and love for our Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) or allow ourselves to be bullied to not manifest our love for him and our religion. You place greater value on giving your child the easiest life possible, but a Muslim places utmost value on pleasing Allah. The Holy Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) told this community that we have to love him more than our own parents and our own children. Look how when Allah commanded Abraham (alaihi salam) to sacrifice his first born son, he unhesitatingly and unquestionably submitted to the command of his Lord. All Muslims should strive for similar faith, and let nothing, including their children, be an obstacle to that:

O ye who believe! Let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance of Allah. If any act thus, the loss is their own.
(Al-Munafiqun 63:9)

That is all fine and well. But can you show me hard evidence that Allah has said that you must name your child Jihad? If not then, no offense but that argument doesn't hold much water. I have read that if facing death then a muslim is allowed to lie and say he is not a muslim if it will save his life. Would that be the same if one's name would be the reason for your death?
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NoName55
03-03-2007, 02:13 AM
Salaam Alaikum
I must be an ignorant fool since I don't know it myself. So can any one (1 of 100s of scholars here) tell me if jihaad is 1 of Allah ta'la's 99 names or was it one of the known prophets or is it the name of a Sahabi?

thank you kindly
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Talha777
03-03-2007, 02:15 AM
I'm not saying that all Muslims must name their children Jihad, that is completely absurd. If that is what Allah commanded, than over 99% of Muslims are doing a bad job, because the name Jihad is very, very rare. But the point is that Muslims in Western societies are increasingly being pressured to abandon famous Islamic names including Muhammad, Usama, Ahmad, Hussain, etc., in favor of unknown names or even Western names. I highly dissaprove of this because we should be setting the precedent for the disbelievers to follow, we are their models for the righteous, how can we than be pressured to adopt their ways and please them?

O ye who believe! If ye obey the unbelievers, they will drive you back on your heels, and ye will turn back (from Faith) to your own loss (Al-Imran 3:149)

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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 02:19 AM
Sis, it doesnt necessarily have to be about the name, it could be anything. We shouldnt be pressured so stop somethin that is Islamic because people fail to understand it. Do people listen to others to stop smoking even though they know its bad? What should people be worried about, a name or things that hurts them physically? Its just a name, and if people cant handle it, thats their issue.
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NoName55
03-03-2007, 02:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Sis, it doesnt necessarily have to be about the name, it could be anything. We shouldnt be pressured so stop somethin that is Islamic because people fail to understand it. Do people listen to others to stop smoking even though they know its bad? What should people be worried about, a name or things that hurts them physically? Its just a name, and if people cant handle it, thats their issue.
:sl:
Its not their issue if you are ruled by them. Then you either abide by their rulings or the other choice is to emigrate to a country that you are willing to obey the rules of.

:w:
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tomtomsmom
03-03-2007, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
I'm not saying that all Muslims must name their children Jihad, that is completely absurd. If that is what Allah commanded, than over 99% of Muslims are doing a bad job, because the name Jihad is very, very rare. But the point is that Muslims in Western societies are increasingly being pressured to abandon famous Islamic names including Muhammad, Usama, Ahmad, Hussain, etc., in favor of unknown names or even Western names. I highly dissaprove of this because we should be setting the precedent for the disbelievers to follow, we are their models for the righteous, how can we than be pressured to adopt their ways and please them?

O ye who believe! If ye obey the unbelievers, they will drive you back on your heels, and ye will turn back (from Faith) to your own loss (Al-Imran 3:149)


I didn't mean that all muslims must name their child that. There are names that are more incouraged to name your children than others. If Jihad is one of them then I would simply like to know where it says that.

The world is constantly changing. It sucks. But it happens. We all have to change with the times. There have been some very bad things tied to some very beautiful names. That sucks too but it is what it is. To subject a child to that kind of hatred just because you don't think that it should be that way is wrong. If when the child grows up and wants to change his name then so be it. But give the poor kid a chance not to get his teeth kicked in while he is at school.:rant:

Just a side note-I have no problem with traditional names. My husbands name is Mohammed.:D
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tomtomsmom
03-03-2007, 02:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Sis, it doesnt necessarily have to be about the name, it could be anything. We shouldnt be pressured so stop somethin that is Islamic because people fail to understand it. Do people listen to others to stop smoking even though they know its bad? What should people be worried about, a name or things that hurts them physically? Its just a name, and if people cant handle it, thats their issue.
That is the point I am trying to make. In the future a name like that could cause this boy serious physical harm. So it isn't just the person who is mis-informed issue. That is an issue for everyone around this child. That name could bring down a rain of hell on this whole family.

And where does it say that this is an Islamic name? There are alot of things that are said to be "Islamic" but are actually cultural traditions that have nothing to do with Islam.
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Talha777
03-03-2007, 02:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tomtomsmom
The world is constantly changing. It sucks. But it happens. We all have to change with the times. There have been some very bad things tied to some very beautiful names. That sucks too but it is what it is.
Yes times do change, but it doesn't mean we have to change with them. Islam says to abide by Truth, even if the whole world says otherwise, in the end we will have to answer to our Rab, not to society. As Muslims we take lesson from the stories narrated in the Holy Quran. Sadum (Sodom) was an evil society that openly practiced some of the most vehement sins collectively, but the Prophet Lot (alaihi salam) was a righteous person who did not give in to society, even when it endangered his very life. He put his trust and faith in Allah, and sure enough he was among the few who was granted protection when Allah destroyed his entire civilization. We Muslims must be apart from this world, we must be different and a model of piety. We cannot simply change with the time, that is not our way.
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NoName55
03-03-2007, 02:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

Yes times do change, but it doesn't mean we have to change with them. Islam says to abide by Truth, even if the whole world says otherwise, in the end we will have to answer to our Rab, not to society. As Muslims we take lesson from the stories narrated in the Holy Quran. Sadum (Sodom) was an evil society that openly practiced some of the most vehement sins collectively, but the Prophet Lot (alaihi salam) was a righteous person who did not give in to society, even when it endangered his very life. He put his trust and faith in Allah, and sure enough he was among the few who was granted protection when Allah destroyed his entire civilization. We Muslims must be apart from this world, we must be different and a model of piety. We cannot simply change with the time, that is not our way.
excuse my ignorance but was his name jihad then?

I would like you to show me From Quran and authentic Sunnah where it tells us to disobey rulers in foreign lands and I'll show you the exact opposite
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 02:43 AM
We are talking about somethnig we dont compromise to bro.
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NoName55
03-03-2007, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
We are talking about somethnig we dont compromise to bro.
:sl:
in light of what? Quraan And Sunnah?
I don't think so sister


anyway I'm out of this thread
Ma'salaama
:w:
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tomtomsmom
03-03-2007, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

Yes times do change, but it doesn't mean we have to change with them. Islam says to abide by Truth, even if the whole world says otherwise, in the end we will have to answer to our Rab, not to society. As Muslims we take lesson from the stories narrated in the Holy Quran. Sadum (Sodom) was an evil society that openly practiced some of the most vehement sins collectively, but the Prophet Lot (alaihi salam) was a righteous person who did not give in to society, even when it endangered his very life. He put his trust and faith in Allah, and sure enough he was among the few who was granted protection when Allah destroyed his entire civilization. We Muslims must be apart from this world, we must be different and a model of piety. We cannot simply change with the time, that is not our way.
Are you seriously comparing a prophet to a innocent child that has no protection? It would be nice to believe that faith alone would protect him. But then again if that were the full truth then muslims with strong faith wouldn't die of cancer or be murdered while sleeping in their beds. And if you can't change with time because it isn't your way then why are you sitting at a computer talking on the internet? That is changing with the times.
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Talha777
03-03-2007, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
excuse my ignorance but was his name jihad then?

I would like you to show me From Quran and authentic Sunnah where it tells us to disobey rulers in foreign lands and I'll show you the exact opposite
Brother I am not at all advocating disobeying rulers of foreign lands. I am simply saying that we cannot give in to societal pressures from the disbelievers. Societal pressures is one thing, rules in a foreign land are quite another.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 02:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
:sl:
in light of what? Quraan And Sunnah?
I don't think so sister

:w:
Why u gettin fiesty, chill out please. Fix ur manners, then bother bringing up the Quran and Sunnah. Am i being mean and sarcastic? No im not.
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Talha777
03-03-2007, 02:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tomtomsmom
Are you seriously comparing a prophet to a innocent child that has no protection? It would be nice to believe that faith alone would protect him. But then again if that were the full truth then muslims with strong faith wouldn't die of cancer or be murdered while sleeping in their beds. And if you can't change with time because it isn't your way then why are you sitting at a computer talking on the internet? That is changing with the times.
Islam is not against technology, it can advance as far as it can, and we can take the benefit of it in ways which shariat allows. However, when society starts saying that you can't have names like Muhammad because its not acceptable to many disbelievers, that is a change which Muslims should not accomodate. How can a Muslim dare change his name of Muhammad, the name of the Seal of the Prophets (salallahu alaihi wa salam) because some people will frown on that. My own name is Muhammad, and my parents before I was born were debating whether to name me Muhammad or Ahmad. At that time in Canada the name Ahmad was relatively unknown, but people knew the name Muhammad and they advised my parents against naming me that. But their advice is what changed my parents mind, Subhan Allah, and they decided to name me Muhammad.

If people start physically assaulting children simply because they don't like their names, than I question whether those people need an excuse to be violent towards innocent ones. Its like saying to a Muslim child to give in to a bully when he demands him to eat a porkchop otherwise he may have to endure a severe beating. If the Muslim boy eats the porkchop, you can be assured the bully will find another way to provoke the boy so he can satisfy his bloodlust. Giving into bullying will not make it go away.
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tomtomsmom
03-03-2007, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

Islam is not against technology, it can advance as far as it can, and we can take the benefit of it in ways which shariat allows. However, when society starts saying that you can't have names like Muhammad because its not acceptable to many disbelievers, that is a change which Muslims should not accomodate. How can a Muslim dare change his name of Muhammad, the name of the Seal of the Prophets (salallahu alaihi wa salam) because some people will frown on that. My own name is Muhammad, and my parents before I was born were debating whether to name me Muhammad or Ahmad. At that time in Canada the name Ahmad was relatively unknown, but people knew the name Muhammad and they advised my parents against naming me that. But their advice is what changed my parents mind, Subhan Allah, and they decided to name me Muhammad.

If people start physically assaulting children simply because they don't like their names, than I question whether those people need an excuse to be violent towards innocent ones. Its like saying to a Muslim child to give in to a bully when he demands him to eat a porkchop otherwise he may have to endure a severe beating. If the Muslim boy eats the porkchop, you can be assured the bully will find another way to provoke the boy so he can satisfy his bloodlust. Giving into bullying will not make it go away.


This thread isn't about being named Mohammed. It is about being named Jihad.

I am not speaking of "people" as in adults. Children can be much more cruel than adults.

MY POINT IS: With so many people already discriminating against muslims for so many different reasons, why subject this child to one extra one?? It is senseless. You are turning this into muslims against the world and it isn't like that. It is a name. Just a name. Everyone has one. But if this name is going to hurt this child in the long run then it is worth giving him a different name. I think they should go with Mohammed. In my opinion that is a very good name. But you know what they say about opinions.........
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SilentObserver
03-03-2007, 03:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Showkat
In the same programme he defended the terror attacks on the United States on September 11 2001, and on Bali in 2002.
Any person in a western nation caught glorifying terrorism, or supporting attacks against the country in which they live, should be jailed.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 03:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tomtomsmom
This thread isn't about being named Mohammed. It is about being named Jihad.

I am not speaking of "people" as in adults. Children can be much more cruel than adults.

MY POINT IS: With so many people already discriminating against muslims for so many different reasons, why subject this child to one extra one?? It is senseless. You are turning this into muslims against the world and it isn't like that. It is a name. Just a name. Everyone has one. But if this name is going to hurt this child in the long run then it is worth giving him a different name. I think they should go with Mohammed. In my opinion that is a very good name. But you know what they say about opinions.........
^^Yea Muhammad is a good one, but that doesnt mean everyone likes that name. You say that probably because you like it sis, but not everyone thinks like you sadly. Well I know your a good person, so you wouldnt think like that:) But should we stop naming kids because people dont like it? I might like to keep a name that I like, but chances are not everyone will like it. Some people hate us because we are Muslim and a lot Muslims face assault. Does that mean we should stop being Muslim? Its the same concept sis, whether its a name or identity.

With so many people already discriminating against muslims for so many different reasons, why subject this child to one extra one??
Thats like saying I shouldnt raise my child Muslim because people already hate Muslims. So hes already being hated as a baby. Thats silly sis.
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tomtomsmom
03-03-2007, 03:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
^^Yea Muhammad is a good one, but that doesnt mean everyone likes that name. You say that probably because you like it sis, but not everyone thinks like you sadly. Well I know your a good person, so you wouldnt think like that:) But should we stop naming kids because people dont like it? I might like to keep a name that I like, but chances are not everyone will like it. Some people hate us because we are Muslim and a lot Muslims face assault. Does that mean we should stop being Muslim? Its the same concept sis, whether its a name or identity.

Thanks sis!
But I disagree it isn't the same. A name is just a name. It isn't your faith. That is like apples and oranges.
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SilentObserver
03-03-2007, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tomtomsmom
With so many people already discriminating against muslims for so many different reasons...
Muslims are not discriminated against any more than anyone else. Some like to say that they are, but it simply is not true.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 03:16 AM
Exactly sis, a name is just a name. I dont care what people think. If people will hate someone for a name, then that will only show peoples prejudices. Let their colors out in the open and we will stay as we are, Insha'Allah.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 03:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Muslims are not discriminated against any more than anyone else. Some like to say that they are, but it simply is not true.
^^She wasnt saying we r the only one. Please dont go off...
A lot of you guys have made it loud and clear.
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Malaikah
03-03-2007, 03:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Showkat
The names Hitler and Stalin are banned, and in 2002 a Turkish couple living in Germany were denied permission to name their child Osama bin Laden.
:sl:

LOL! OMG! ;D Who would name their son Osama bin laden! :rollseyes

Anyway, I honestly think they shouldn't name their son Jihad- it is something pretty tactless considering they live in a place where the word has evil connotations. If they lived in the middle east, then okay fair enough, go nuts, but honestly, why do they want to cause so much trouble for the child.

I'm not saying they should abandon all Muslims names, but seriously... think of the child!
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 03:32 AM
Why the hell does it matter. If u like it, keep it.
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SilentObserver
03-03-2007, 03:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

LOL! OMG! ;D Who would name their son Osama bin laden! :rollseyes

Anyway, I honestly think they shouldn't name their son Jihad- it is something pretty tactless considering they live in a place where the word has evil connotations. If they lived in the middle east, then okay fair enough, go nuts, but honestly, why do they want to cause so much trouble for the child.

I'm not saying they should abandon all Muslims names, but seriously... think of the child!
Exactly.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 03:51 AM
Not my fault people are amazingly dumb. If someone told me I should keep the name, I have no problem. But I already got better names in mind.
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Malaikah
03-03-2007, 05:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Why the hell does it matter. If u like it, keep it.
It matters because they are deliberately putting the child in a very difficult situation.

If a mature male wanted to take on the name Jihad, knowing full well the consequence, then hey, no problem. But it isn't fair for them to put their son into such a position.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 06:16 AM
As if people aren't afraid of other names, so technically it really does not change anything. Being Muslim is enough for another to be assaulted. So it doesnt make a difference. If the person doesnt hate u being a Muslim, chances are they wont hate your name. If people choose not to keep that name, thats their choice. Dont think people havent already done it. The parents arent putting them in a difficult situation, its the ignorance of the media and others who make it difficult. It isnt fair that we should be put in the situation. So people need to quit blaming the name which has existed way before half the ignorant people and take a look at their disgusting behavior.
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SilentObserver
03-03-2007, 07:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Being Muslim is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being hindu is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being christian is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being sikh is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being black is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being white is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being arab is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being oriental is enough for another to be assaulted.

POINT: Stop whining. Stop pretending muslims are victims any more than anyone else. Everybody gets victimized as much as anybody else, it just depends on where you are.
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Malaikah
03-03-2007, 08:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
As if people aren't afraid of other names, so technically it really does not change anything. Being Muslim is enough for another to be assaulted. So it doesnt make a difference. If the person doesnt hate u being a Muslim, chances are they wont hate your name. If people choose not to keep that name, thats their choice. Dont think people havent already done it. The parents arent putting them in a difficult situation, its the ignorance of the media and others who make it difficult. It isnt fair that we should be put in the situation. So people need to quit blaming the name which has existed way before half the ignorant people and take a look at their disgusting behavior.
:sl:

Sis, come on, it isn't that simple. Most non-Muslims associate jihad with terrorism. It is unfortunate, but hey, that's reality for you.

Alhamdulillah, a lot of them realise that most Muslims are just normal people like everyone else, so they won't mind Muslim names so much, but we shouldn't be so optimistic as to think that the word jihad itself will be viewed in such a way.
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------
03-03-2007, 08:17 AM
:sl:

U know what? Half the non-muslims don't even know what Jhad means, And Muslims know it means to Strive in the Way of Allah, so I don't even know whats the big deal :rollseyes

:w:
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Muslim Knight
03-03-2007, 09:17 AM
Jihad means "Struggle or Strive". If you translate holy war into Arabic, it sounds something like, "Harb al-Quddus" which is unheard of in Islam. Holy war is Western concept introduced by Crusaders with their battle cry, "God wills it!"

When we talk jihad we talk about in various aspects in life. We talk about jihad in;

1. Our life, how do we struggle (jihad) to succeed
2. In our studies, we struggle to pass & score exams
3. In our marriage, we struggle to find happiness
4. In battles, we struggle for victory (who wants to lose?)
5. In business, we struggle to make it profitable and successful
6. etc., you get the idea

So, the idea of Jihad is not solely confined to war, but it is the urging in the Quran, telling Muslims to succeed in all good things. We have a mission, and that is to make Islam prevail, by good da'wah and good character!


p/s - I love bro Fi_Sabilillah's explanation on jihad.
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AHMED_GUREY
03-03-2007, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by Jazzy

As if people aren't afraid of other names, so technically it really does not change anything. Being Muslim is enough for another to be assaulted.
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Being hindu is enough for another to be assaulted.
She never said Hindu's were immune!

Being christian is enough for another to be assaulted.
She never said Christians were immune

Being sikh is enough for another to be assaulted.
She never said Sikhs were immune

Being black is enough for another to be assaulted.
She never said Blacks were immune

Being white is enough for another to be assaulted.
She never said Whites were immune

Being arab is enough for another to be assaulted.
She never said Arabs were immune

Being oriental is enough for another to be assaulted.
She never said Orientals were immune

POINT: Stop whining. Stop pretending
Do you know the meaning of the phrase protest 2 much?

It's when you read more into someone elses remarks than what was actually said (revealing something that you are sensitive or insecure about, while having little to do with what was actually said.)

POINT: stop projecting your insecurities at Jazzy there must be a different reason for you highlighting the before mentioned groups when Jazzy neither claimed Muslims had it worse or were more victimized then other groups so what is it?
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KAding
03-03-2007, 09:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Why should Western context or definition of Jihad matter when its wrong in the first place? The West considers Jihad to mean holy war, which is not right. So why should a person not keep the name because someone mis defines it?
It is not 'wrong' to define Jihad as holy war. This is not a Western invention. Muslims have used the word in that way for centuries, and on this forum most do use it in that way as well. It might have more meanings, but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean holy war as well. From the article it is very clear the father of the boy is attracted to the name for that very reason.
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Showkat
03-03-2007, 10:27 AM
Salaams and hi

Words like Jihad and Usamah etc have certain meanings and connotations with non-Muslims in todays climate, but who can predict when the child goes to school that their wouldn't be a new enemy and bogeyman for the west? before islam it was Communism, maybe the west will turn on each other in the future once they run out of enemies

Also i think that some people in the west need to get used to the fact that Muslims in Europe are here to stay and we will hold onto our values and customs regardless of the coercion from western Governments.

Yes we as Muslims will integrate and contribute to the societies in which we live but not at the cost of losing our identitiy.

So we will name our kids after islamic heroes past and present, and non-Muslims can anme thier kids after whoever they like we have no problems with that at all because we are tollerant towards other cultures and faiths.
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cihad
03-03-2007, 01:48 PM
why you all fighting over my name!! i luv it!

anyway i think it is the intention of the father that matters, from what i've read here it seems like he wants to give the name to attract attention
etcetera...

if he wants to give it so that his son will grow to be a good mujahid...its all in his intentions.

you are supposed to give names to children that have good meanings
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 04:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
It is not 'wrong' to define Jihad as holy war. This is not a Western invention. Muslims have used the word in that way for centuries, and on this forum most do use it in that way as well. It might have more meanings, but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean holy war as well. From the article it is very clear the father of the boy is attracted to the name for that very reason.

It is a Western invention, because thats how the West translates it as.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Being hindu is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being christian is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being sikh is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being black is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being white is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being arab is enough for another to be assaulted.
Being oriental is enough for another to be assaulted.

POINT: Stop whining. Stop pretending muslims are victims any more than anyone else. Everybody gets victimized as much as anybody else, it just depends on where you are.

Dude, u have serious issues. Quit dragging my post. We r talking about Muslims no one else. If the article was about a Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Jewish name then I would have said the same thing. I feel sorry for u and ur messed up mind.
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Muezzin
03-03-2007, 04:56 PM
I see from the story posted in the first post that the names 'Hitler' and 'Stalin' are banned. Would people be allowed to name their kids 'Polpot', 'Idi Amin' or 'Genghis Khan'? No mention of those. I wonder if there's a toddler named 'Rasputin' waddling about somewhere, playing in a sandbox with his buddies 'Nikita Kruschev' and 'Vlad the Impaler'...
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NoName55
03-03-2007, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I see from the story posted in the first post that the names 'Hitler' and 'Stalin' are banned. Would people be allowed to name their kids 'Polpot', 'Idi Amin' or 'Genghis Khan'? No mention of those. I wonder if there's a toddler named 'Rasputin' waddling about somewhere...
:sl:

:D:happy:


:w:
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snakelegs
03-04-2007, 12:21 AM
i'm curious - is jihad commonly used as a first name among muslims? i have never run in to it.
i think it would be wrong to use your kid for a political platform by giving a name that's going to bring him nothing but trouble living in the west, but i don't really think the government should stick its nose in either.
now osama, i think is a really pretty name. but i wouldn't name a kid that if i lived in the west.
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Malaikah
03-04-2007, 12:24 AM
^Yeh, it is common enough.

The name Osama should be okay enough, but to name some Osama Bin laden, that is just nuts.:uuh:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-04-2007, 12:24 AM
Wow, I cant believe how scared everyone is. Well yea, if u use the name for political reasons, then thats definitely wrong. But if people like it, then stop buggin over it for goodness sake. Its like saying, dont let your daughter wear the Hijab because it causes trouble for them and will have to face harassment. Seriously.
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snakelegs
03-04-2007, 12:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
^Yeh, it is common enough.

The name Osama should be okay enough, but to name some Osama Bin laden, that is just nuts.:uuh:
well, if it's a common name, that makes it different and easier to understand - like maybe the guy is naming his kid after his great grandfather or something. still, why make life harder - you could give it as a middle name.
well, yes....osama bin laden would never do for a name! what does "osama" mean, by the way?
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Lina
03-04-2007, 01:19 AM
:sl:

Ridicilous!

Jihad is a great name, I love it!

Definitely a name to consider, when naming a child, Masha'Allah.
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Talha777
03-04-2007, 01:33 AM
what does "osama" mean, by the way?
I don't know why people spell it with an 'o', especially because it results in a mispronounciation. Along with Umar, Usama should be spelled with a 'u' to avoid mispronounciation in English speaking countries. I don't know what Usama means, but it is a beautiful name, the name of one of the Holy Prophet's (salallahu alaihi wa salam) illustrious companions, Hazrat Usama (razi Allahu anhu).
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NoName55
03-04-2007, 02:02 AM
usama/osama is arabic for lion
name of an animal, how ironic
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Malaikah
03-04-2007, 04:22 AM
^Isn't lion something else??

The real shock here is that Osama is also a girls name. :uuh: My relatives ex-wife is called Osama.
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snakelegs
03-04-2007, 04:53 AM
i thought lion was "asad" but maybe there is more than one word.
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NoName55
03-04-2007, 04:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
^Isn't lion something else??

ex-wife is called Osama.
:sl:

Do yoy mean
الأسد
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NoName55
03-04-2007, 04:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i thought lion was "asad" but maybe there is more than one word.
:sl:

you beat me to it :)

this looks and sounds similar but means luckier
AS'AD أسعد
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Muezzin
03-04-2007, 01:16 PM
Yeah, stop arguing now or I'll start deleting posts. Thanks.
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Cognescenti
03-04-2007, 08:21 PM
I take care of a baby who is being adopted. He still has his biological surname, but his adoptive mother calls him by the first name she has chosen. It seems all the bases are covered no matter which way this global war on Western civilization thingy turns out.

His name is Christian Islam. :) I'm not making it up.
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Abdihakim
03-04-2007, 09:33 PM
i think the parents should not worry and just name their child an another name. Plus there are loads of names available. :)
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Woodrow
03-05-2007, 04:26 AM
Update The high court agreed with the lower court decision to allow the parents to name their son Jihad.

German Court Rules That Naming Your Child *Jihad* is Legal
A German Court has upheld the ruling that naming a child *Jihad* is perfectly legal:

Mr Seyam, 47, a self-declared Islamist, was shown on television this week presenting his son. Grinning into the camera, Jihad on his knee, he said: "You had barely come into the world and you were in court. Your fight has already begun."
I am trying to find another source for the story before I come back with a link.
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snakelegs
03-05-2007, 05:51 AM
good - whatever people may think about the wisdom of it, i don't think the government should be in the business of dictating what you can name your child. esp. in this case, since "jihad" is apparently a common enough arabic name. for all anybody knows they wanted to name the kid after one of their ancestors.
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syilla
03-05-2007, 09:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
I take care of a baby who is being adopted. He still has his biological surname, but his adoptive mother calls him by the first name she has chosen. It seems all the bases are covered no matter which way this global war on Western civilization thingy turns out.

His name is Christian Islam. :) I'm not making it up.
:uuh: :uuh:

is he a muslim or a christian? well...maybe the parents...
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SATalha
03-05-2007, 09:35 AM
Wow...this debate has progressed. Any-who Jihad for me is great name and i wouldnt tell my Cuz to change it jus coz he lives in Britain. But these days if a perant is gonna call their son Jihad maybe it would risky?:-\
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snakelegs
03-05-2007, 09:56 AM
at this rate, baby jihad will be going to college by the time we finish discussing this case!
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SATalha
03-05-2007, 10:03 AM
Yeah anyways my Dwa is with baby jihad. Hope you grow up to be a great Muslim Inshallah
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Asyur an-Nagi
03-05-2007, 10:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
at this rate, baby jihad will be going to college by the time we finish discussing this case!
or probably has joined our forum;D ;D ;D
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Showkat
03-05-2007, 11:01 AM
A very interesting reply from a non-Muslim on another forum in relation to this thread

"Just thought id add that my Grandfather's brother is Orthodox Christian and he is named Jihad. its not just loved by Muslims, its an arabic name and that article is ludacris....

Not just Jihad, my Christian family have many war names including "Difah" which means Defence and "Kifah" same meaning... and my name is "Nedal" meaning struggle for freedom....

I wonder if this would be an issue if it was a Chritian naming thier son Jihad... hmmmm dont think so! "

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/inde...howtopic=32310
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SATalha
03-05-2007, 11:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Showkat
A very interesting reply from a non-Muslim on another forum in relation to this thread

"Just thought id add that my Grandfather's brother is Orthodox Christian and he is named Jihad. its not just loved by Muslims, its an arabic name and that article is ludacris....

Not just Jihad, my Christian family have many war names including "Difah" which means Defence and "Kifah" same meaning... and my name is "Nedal" meaning struggle for freedom....

I wonder if this would be an issue if it was a Chritian naming thier son Jihad... hmmmm dont think so! "

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/inde...howtopic=32310
Thats intresting, If you think about it why shouldnt we be allowed to keep this name. No tyrant or loony was named Jihad that i can think of?
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Woodrow
03-05-2007, 12:19 PM
The court had approved the use of the name early on. as noted in the original post.

The German interior ministry is appealing against a decision by the Berlin authorities to allow an Islamist to name his son Jihad, the Arabic word used for holy war.

Reda Seyam fought for 18 months for permission to give his sixth child the name after the registry in the Berlin district of Charlottenburg initially rejected his application, saying the name was inappropriate because of its association with terrorism, and "may endanger the child".

This week a court overturned the ruling, on the grounds that Jihad was "a recognised male forename in the Arab world and loved by Muslims".

Mr Seyam, 47, a self-declared Islamist, was shown on television this week presenting his son. Grinning into the camera, Jihad on his knee, he said: "You had barely come into the world and you were in court. Your fight has already begun."

In the same programme he defended the terror attacks on the United States on September 11 2001, and on Bali in 2002.

I believe what brought everything to the attention of the German Ministry Department was when the father brought this up in the TV interview with reporters, when he was interviewed after winning that court battle.

In the same programme he defended the terror attacks on the United States on September 11 2001, and on Bali in 2002.
I believe if he had not brought that up and had just stuck with the issue of his son, this never would have gotten to be a major issue.
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MTAFFI
03-05-2007, 09:29 PM
Well I think his name is just fine, a little strange to me, but just fine all the same. However I think with a name like that the child may find himself in some heated situations in the future, if he continues to live in a predominately non muslim country. I mean if a Christian boy lived in a Muslim country and his name was "Crusader" I think some people might find the name a little curious.

Then again who knows maybe (hopefully) by the time this boy comes to age Jihad (at least the one against other religions or people) wont have a need in the world and the boy will just have a kind of neat sounding name
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Liibaan
03-05-2007, 10:58 PM
I am so sick and tired of the hearing the stupid word "Islamist". It's just an attempt to water down our diin and make it just another "ism", like Buddh"ism", Hindu"ism", or Christian"ity". Utterly ridiculous.

MTAFFI, you have to realize that naming a child "Jihad" in a non-Muslim country is nowhere near the same as naming a child "Crusader" in a Muslim country. Whereas the Crusades were an attempted genocide aimed specifically at Muslims, the word "jihad" has nothing to do with the intention to harm others, regardless of what you may see and hear in the news about "jihadis" and Al Qaeda. If the people don't know the true meaning of the name Jihad, then that's their problem, not ours. Jihad sounds like a perfectly good name for a child.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-06-2007, 12:03 AM
^^Exactly!
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Talha777
03-06-2007, 01:50 AM
I am so sick and tired of the hearing the stupid word "Islamist". It's just an attempt to water down our diin
Ameen brother, Ameen! I hope more and more Muslims realize that the disbelievers are constantly trying to divide us by classifying us into superificial categories like moderate, fundamentalist, extremist, radical, islamist, etc. Muslims need to resist the kafir divide and rule tactics and refuse to be given these labels.
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KAding
03-06-2007, 09:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Liibaan
I am so sick and tired of the hearing the stupid word "Islamist". It's just an attempt to water down our diin and make it just another "ism", like Buddh"ism", Hindu"ism", or Christian"ity". Utterly ridiculous.
How does calling Islam another "ism" water it down? Nevertheless, I agree with you, any orthodox Muslim is by definition an Islamist IMHO. Islamism is simply the misguided attempt by Western scholars to separate 'Islam the religion' from 'Islam the political ideology'. Such a separation is of course artificial. Yet, I don't see how you think that waters down Islam.

MTAFFI, you have to realize that naming a child "Jihad" in a non-Muslim country is nowhere near the same as naming a child "Crusader" in a Muslim country. Whereas the Crusades were an attempted genocide aimed specifically at Muslims, the word "jihad" has nothing to do with the intention to harm others, regardless of what you may see and hear in the news about "jihadis" and Al Qaeda. If the people don't know the true meaning of the name Jihad, then that's their problem, not ours. Jihad sounds like a perfectly good name for a child.
I disagree strongly. "Crusader" is a word that has the same problem as "Jihad". In that has a double meaning of both "striving for" and "holy war".

Look at the dictionary definition:
  1. capitalized : any of the military expeditions undertaken by Christian powers in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to win the Holy Land from the Muslims
  2. a remedial enterprise undertaken with zeal and enthusiasm


Unless speaking in a historical context, the word "Crusade" is hardly ever used anymore to refer to an actual religiously motivated Holy War. It has little religious meaning unless it is in relation with "The Crusades". As such, a crusader, does in todays Christian context hardly ever refers to the Crusades that took place in the Middle ages.

I also disagree with your attempt to define Jihad as a defensive doctrine and the Crusades as offensive. It is historically inaccurate to describe the Crusades as "an attempted genocide". The goal was very clear to recapture the Christian Holy Lands from Muslim rule. The first definition from the dictionary says at much. I think it's unfair and incorrect to portray the Muslims as an innocent religion that had to defend themselves against the unwarranted attacks of genocidal maniacs. Lets not forget that Muslims conquered almost half of the Christian world, including its most holy places! Now, I would agree the Crusaders were in general brute and with little regard for life, but it is fallacious to think the Crusades were unprovoked.

I also disagree that 'Jihad' has nothing to do with an intention to harm others. It has everything to do with harming those who are perceived enemies of Islam! Surely, you accept that meaning of the word as well? All religious scholars and important Islamic websites also use that meaning! Islam-qa.com very clearly explains the four different kinds of Jihad:
http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=20...=eng&txt=Jihad
... jihad is of four kinds: Jihad al-nafs (jihad against one’s self), jihad al-Shaytaan (jihad against the Shaytaan), jihad against the kaafirs and jihad against the hypocrites.

...

Jihad against the kaafirs and hypocrites is of four kinds: with the heart, the tongue, one’s wealth and oneself. Jihad against the kaafirs is more along the lines of physical fighting whereas jihad against the hypocrites is more along the lines of using words and ideas.
This is not an insignificant meaning of jihad as for example Islam-qa.com uses it frequently. Unsurprisingly, kafirs are most interested in the Islamic ideas of "jiahd against the kafirs". Many Muhajedeen, who consider us their enemies, use it frequently when they address us or their fellow Muslims.
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nocturne
03-06-2007, 10:03 AM
Assalamualaikum,

At the end of the day, the child suffers. Why cant they name the child something more acceptable like "Muhammad"? Its not like a sunnath to name the child "Jihad". Sometimes, i wonder why we want to create unneccesarily problems of ourselves.
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KAding
03-06-2007, 10:10 AM
I think the parents have a right to name their child 'Jihad'. I don't think it is smart, nor in the interest of the child, but it is their right.
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MTAFFI
03-06-2007, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Liibaan
MTAFFI, you have to realize that naming a child "Jihad" in a non-Muslim country is nowhere near the same as naming a child "Crusader" in a Muslim country. Whereas the Crusades were an attempted genocide aimed specifically at Muslims, the word "jihad" has nothing to do with the intention to harm others, regardless of what you may see and hear in the news about "jihadis" and Al Qaeda. If the people don't know the true meaning of the name Jihad, then that's their problem, not ours. Jihad sounds like a perfectly good name for a child.
Is Jihad, in certain aspects, not specifically aimed at "non Muslims" or "disbelievers" or the "Kuffar"? Then what is the difference? Not to mention Jihad is going on today, the crusades that occured hundreds of years ago are not. Also you may be sick of the "ism"s and the "ist"s but I am sick of being labeled a Kuffar or a disbeliever just because I dont follow Islam. I believe in God so I am not a "disbeliever" I am a Christian, so how about just call me a Christian. Also the word Kuffar needs to just flat out stop, it is a derogatory term and shouldnt be used any more than any other racial or religious slur.
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Talha777
03-06-2007, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Also the word Kuffar needs to just flat out stop, it is a derogatory term and shouldnt be used any more than any other racial or religious slur.
How can we forbid the use of a word which Almighty God Himself has spoken?

سَنُلْقِي فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الرُّعْبَ بِمَا أَشْرَكُواْ بِاللّهِ مَا لَمْ يُنَزِّلْ بِهِ سُلْطَانًا وَمَأْوَاهُمُ النَّارُ وَبِئْسَ مَثْوَى الظَّالِمِينَ

Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers! (3:151)
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Sami Zaatari
03-06-2007, 05:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Is Jihad, in certain aspects, not specifically aimed at "non Muslims" or "disbelievers" or the "Kuffar"? Then what is the difference? Not to mention Jihad is going on today, the crusades that occured hundreds of years ago are not. Also you may be sick of the "ism"s and the "ist"s but I am sick of being labeled a Kuffar or a disbeliever just because I dont follow Islam. I believe in God so I am not a "disbeliever" I am a Christian, so how about just call me a Christian. Also the word Kuffar needs to just flat out stop, it is a derogatory term and shouldnt be used any more than any other racial or religious slur.
maybe you shoud tell that to christianity since you guys were using terms as infidel and so on.
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Sami Zaatari
03-06-2007, 05:20 PM
infidel in the bible:

2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

so you should ban your bible, since infidel and kaffir is the same thing. :) lets see if you stay a man of your word or back down or make an excuse saying nooooooo infidel and kaffir isnt the same!
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Sami Zaatari
03-06-2007, 05:23 PM
incase u become desperate and say kaffir and infidel arent the same, the word kaffir means unbeliever, the word infidel i just quoted from the bible is called apistos in greek the language of the NT, apistos translated english becomes infidel, the meaning of apistos means:

1) unfaithful, faithless, (not to be trusted, perfidious)

2) incredible

a) of things

3) unbelieving, incredulous

a) without trust (in God)


so an infidel is the exact same word as a kaffir, unbeliever. so you said the word kaffir must stop etc, so go stop your bible first, clean your own frontyard first.
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tomtomsmom
03-06-2007, 05:37 PM
I don't think I have ever actually heard someone say infidel before....
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MTAFFI
03-06-2007, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

How can we forbid the use of a word which Almighty God Himself has spoken?

سَنُلْقِي فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الرُّعْبَ بِمَا أَشْرَكُواْ بِاللّهِ مَا لَمْ يُنَزِّلْ بِهِ سُلْطَانًا وَمَأْوَاهُمُ النَّارُ وَبِئْسَ مَثْوَى الظَّالِمِينَ

Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers! (3:151)
I doubt that Allah meant for the word to be used the way it is today, in a derogatory sense
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MTAFFI
03-06-2007, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
so you should ban your bible, since infidel and kaffir is the same thing. :) lets see if you stay a man of your word or back down or make an excuse saying nooooooo infidel and kaffir isnt the same!
Sami

I love how you tried to get people to argue or fight with you (doesnt seem to islamic to me) but anyhow, maybe you didnt catch my last line of my post so let me repeat it for you it is a derogatory term and shouldnt be used any more than any other racial or religious slur. Infidel, in my opinion, is also a religious slur, it has the same meaning as Kafir so I think it too should not be used. However, I dont see the term infidel used very much by any Christians anymore and if I do I will tell them the same as I have said in my post. You know, the term "Heathen" could be used in place of infidel, it to me is actually very much the equivalent of Kafir or Kuffar, since Kuffar is an islamic term and heathen is an english term. These are both considered to be derogatory whereas infidel is not, so how about this, from now on when I hear a Muslim call a Christian a Kafir I will call that Muslim a heathen! Is the term heathen offensive to you? It would be to me, just as Kafir is!

ALSO JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU, SINCE I KNOW YOU LIKE TO TWIST AND DISTORT, I HAVE NEVER CALLED A MUSLIM A HEATHEN, INFIDEL OR OTHERWISE AND I NEVER WILL, BECAUSE IT IS DISRESPECTFUL AND WRONG TO LABEL ANYONE
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-06-2007, 07:29 PM
Kafir means unbeliever, non Muslim. What does that mean? Someone who doesnt believe. does that really sound derogatory? So if someone calls me a unbeliever, should i take it offensively? No, i wont. why? cuz i am! i dont accept Christianity, why should i be offended. Shall i call u believer then, even though u dont believe in Islam? I think infidel doesnt even exist in the arabic language...could be wrong tho. Infidel is a Westerm term, not Muslim.
Hmm well we r off topic neway :X
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MTAFFI
03-06-2007, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
Kafir means unbeliever, non Muslim. What does that mean? Someone who doesnt believe. does that really sound derogatory? So if someone calls me a unbeliever, should i take it offensively? No, i wont. why? cuz i am! i dont accept Christianity, why should i be offended. Shall i call u believer then, even though u dont believe in Islam? I think infidel doesnt even exist in the arabic language...could be wrong tho. Infidel is a Westerm term, not Muslim.
Hmm well we r off topic neway :X
Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic word meaning an unbeliever, a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth. In cultural terms, it is a derogatory term[1] used to describe an unbeliever, non-Muslims, a Muslim of a differing sect, or an apostate from Islam. It is usually translated into English as "infidel" or "unbeliever".

And again I will say, Heathen means the same thing, is it then OK to call you a heathen?
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aamirsaab
03-06-2007, 07:59 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I doubt that Allah meant for the word to be used the way it is today, in a derogatory sense
You are correct. Certain muslims have taken it upon themselves to use it as a curse. Shameful really.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-06-2007, 08:04 PM
You took that from Wikipedia :giggling: Go ahead call me a heathen, not going to change my beliefs :giggling: Im not offended in the least. If you have true faith in your religion, no word that u find cruel or derogatory will affect u. I personally dont care what you call me. Ill stay how i am :D

Be careful who you call Kafir because only Allah knows who is truly a rejector and who is merely a misguided person. It is not up to us to "sentence" a person to the Hellfire.
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MTAFFI
03-06-2007, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy
You took that from Wikipedia :giggling: Go ahead call me a heathen, not going to change my beliefs :giggling: Im not offended in the least. If you have true faith in your religion, no word that u find cruel or derogatory will affect u. I personally dont care what you call me. Ill stay how i am :D

Be careful who you call Kafir because only Allah knows who is truly a rejector and who is merely a misguided person. It is not up to us to "sentence" a person to the Hellfire.
I call no one a Kafir or heathen or infidel, I was just making an example. Good for you though not being offended, apparently I am not as thick skinned as you since the word is actually offensive to me. Your last sentence is also very true and I appreciate you posting that, if only everyone thought like that maybe the word wouldnt be just tossed around like it is.

Anyways back to baby Jihad, I think someone said above that this will cause more trouble for the little kid than the name is worth, too bad the father cares more about his personal agenda than the welfare of his own child. But again I will say, he has the right to name his kid whatever he wants, or he should at least
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-06-2007, 08:15 PM
I should have pointed out, it was just a general statement :D
Ok yea uhh, get over it people. I luv that name.
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KAding
03-06-2007, 08:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

You are correct. Certain muslims have taken it upon themselves to use it as a curse. Shameful really.
I think they are merely imitating the Qu'ran in that respect. These words are used in a similar vain in the Qu'ran, which is generally threatening and unfriendly about most unbelievers. You can hardly expect people to be better than their holy books.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-06-2007, 08:19 PM
Thats why it has set of guidlines. But people will to choose to follow whatever, even if truth is at their fingertips :D
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Akil
03-07-2007, 12:54 AM
To the original subject: While I understand and regularly educate people on the meaning of jihad as spiritual striving rather than only physical struggle, I believe it is negligent of the parents to name their child something that might cause harm to him. Furthermore I believe it is clear the precise meaning of jihad these parents intend.
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j4763
03-08-2007, 08:24 PM
Words change over the years, n***er simply ment black but i wouldn't call my child it.
And believe it or not jihad's real meaning has changed whether you like it or not in the west anyways, which is where the child was born/being brought up. And IMO the perants should acknowledge that.

Kufir may of meant non-believer but try calling a black South African that and see what happens!
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-08-2007, 09:09 PM
The meaning has changed "according to the west," but the meaning is still the same "whether you like it nor not." And most of us could care less "whether u like it or not."

Kufir may of meant non-believer but try calling a black South African that and see what happens!
And that has to do with what:? its not may have, it still is! Its kafir btw..
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H4RUN
03-08-2007, 09:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tomtomsmom
On the one side, people should be able to name their kids whatever they want. But then on the other hand, you have to think of the kids. With names like that they will be picked on constantly growing up. As adults they could be looked down at for names like that.
:sl:

Well in that case such names as 'richard' should be banned aswel, because those of us living here in the UK or a western country may know the nickname that is given to Richard....
And in the modern day and age as the child goes through life in these days, it may well not be all fun with the name calling...can really get some people depressed...
:)
:w:
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H4RUN
03-08-2007, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tomtomsmom
As a mother, I want my child to have the easiest life possible. If I could I would put him in a bubble and never let him see the bad that is in this world. Even though it may not mean holy war that is the way it is perceived. So this child would have to put up with all kind of abuse. It is like starting them out in this world with a strike already against them. Kinda like naming your kid Dick. It is an ok name but would you want to go through life with those kind of jokes?
aah ooops i didnt read all the pages...yes exactly, naming him richard aka the above wont make it easy for the kida in this day and age:)
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