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aamirsaab
03-03-2007, 02:03 PM
:sl:
This is mainly for the non-muslims who have or wish to read a translation of the Quran. Though, it does also have importance for muslims.

I have noticed that many people, both muslim and non, take verses from the Quran out of context. Now, if one has read the scholars footnotes, this missinterpretation is less likely to occur, since the footnote explains the situation. Without a scholar's footnotes, it is very easy to see a logical ruling in a negative light (e.g. the infamous beat your wife verse - if one has read the footnote and or preceding verses, one is able to see the context and the actual meaning of the words used, which is far from what certain people interpret it as)

If you are not able to find a translation of the Quran with the scholars notes, I highly recommend you either go to a local mosque where there are countless Quranic translations, or go out and buy one.

So, for the sake of understanding others religions, please be careful with your interpretations of Quranic verses; if there are particular verses that seem negative, please either ask an imaam or read the footnotes. Taking comments out of context is bad for everyone and does not promote understanding nor does it help to build bridges.

N.b: if there are other religious texts that have similar problems, please do post them here so we all may benefit.
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YusufNoor
03-03-2007, 03:13 PM
:sl:

i agree that english translations of the Qur'an without some tafseer can leave one VERY puzzled as to why something is in the Qur'an or what a particular set of ideas are related to is lost if not put in context. the BEST Tafseers seem to be always out of print or hard to locate. i really really enjoyed Mohammad Asad's The Message of the Qur'an Translated and Explained! disagreed with some of it, but there was a wealth of interesting stuff in it especially items dealing with structure of speech, the "elliptical speech" stuff and some of the old Arabic idioms.

HOWEVER, i also feel that Seerah is VERY VITAL to understanding the Qur'an and Islam. the Qur'an really starts to "come alive" when learning about the life of the Messenger of Allah(pbuh)! the how and when of revelation, such as Asbabun Nuzool by Allamah Waahidi add a depth of understanding that make the Qur'an seem "oh so logical, sensical and just simply Divine!"

as for the Tanakh and Torah, while i don't agree with all aspects of Jewish belief and tradition, Mesorah Publishing has an "ArtScroll Series" of books that is pretty well done, especially the Stone Chumash. Commentary and "Tafseer" are added by some pretty darn smart Jewish Rishonim that adds sooo many layers that the Torah and Prophets really start to come alive. i recommend them to all non-Muslims!

for "Christian" books, Zondervan Publishing does some nifty study bibles and...nevermind, i don't want to offend Gene! :eek:

just some thoughts...

:w:
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Keltoi
03-03-2007, 07:52 PM
The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, by Mohammad Marmaduke Pickthall is the one in my library. Hopefully that is considered a good translation to English.
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strider
03-03-2007, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, by Mohammad Marmaduke Pickthall is the one in my library. Hopefully that is considered a good translation to English.
It is. :)
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Trumble
03-03-2007, 08:05 PM
I have the 'Penguin Classics' version, of the N.J. Dawood translation first published in 1956. I've no idea how good a translation or not that is, to be honest, having nothing to compare it with. I bought that particular edition simply because it has the Arabic text in parallel, and while I don't read Arabic it is something I keep meaning to learn. I'll get around to it one day.
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Malaikah
03-04-2007, 12:19 AM
There is a really good translation here:
http://muttaqun.com/quran/e/

by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D.
Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan

That is the one I use, and I love it.

Footnotes included! :D
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YusufNoor
03-04-2007, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, by Mohammad Marmaduke Pickthall is the one in my library. Hopefully that is considered a good translation to English.

:sl:

Greetings of Peace and Mercy Brother Keltoi. here's a little (:-[ ) about my point on Tafseer:

The Elephant

The Elephant
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[105.1] Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with the possessors of the elephant?
[105.2] Did He not cause their war to end in confusion,
[105.3] And send down (to prey) upon them birds in flocks,
[105.4] Casting against them stones of baked clay,
[105.5] So He rendered them like straw eaten up?

Here’s Ibn Kathir’s Tafseer:

A Summary of the Story of the People of the Elephant
This is the story of the people of the Elephant, in brief, and summarized. It has already been mentioned in the story of the People of the Ditch that Dhu Nuas, the last king of Himyar, a polytheist -- was the one who ordered killing the People of the Ditch. They were Christians and their number was approximately twenty thousand. None of them except a man named Daws Dhu Tha`laban escaped. He fled to Ash-Sham where he sought protection from Caesar, the emperor of Ash-Sham, who was also a Christian. Caesar wrote to An-Najashi, the king of Ethiopia (Abyssinia), who was closer to the home of the man. An-Najashi sent two governors with him: Aryat and Abrahah bin As-Sabah Abu Yaksum, along with a great army. The army entered Yemen and began searching the houses and looting in search of the king of Himyar (Dhu Nuwas). Dhu Nuwas was eventually killed by drowning in the sea. Thus, the Ethiopians were free to rule Yemen, with Aryat and Abrahah as its governors. However, they continually disagreed about matters, attacked each other, fought each other and warred against each other, until one of them said to the other, "There is no need for our two armies to fight. Instead let us fight each other (in a duel) and the one who kills the other will be the ruler of Yemen.'' So the other accepted the challenge and they held a duel. Behind each man was a channel of water (to keep either from fleeing). Aryat gained the upper hand and struck Abrahah with his sword, splitting his nose and mouth, and slashing his face. But `Atawdah, Abrahah's guard, attacked Aryat and killed him. Thus, Abrahah returned wounded to Yemen where he was treated for his injuries and recovered. He thus became the commander of the Abyssinian army in Yemen.


Then the king of Abyssinia, An-Najashi wrote to him, blaming him for what had happened (between him and Aryat) and threatened him, saying that he swore to tread on the soil of Yemen and cut off his forelock. Therefore, Abrahah sent a messenger with gifts and precious objects to An-Najashi to appease him and flatter him, and a sack containing soil from Yemen and a piece of hair cut from his forelock. He said in his letter to the king, "Let the king walk upon this soil and thus fulfill his oath, and this is my forelock hair that I send to you.'' When An-Najashi received this, he was pleased with Abrahah and gave him his approval. Then Abrahah wrote to An-Najashi saying that he would build a church for him in Yemen the like of which had never been built before. Thus, he began to build a huge church in San`a', tall and beautifully crafted and decorated on all sides. The Arabs called it Al-Qullays because of its great height, and because if one looked at it, his cap would be in danger of falling off as he tilted his head back. Then Abrahah Al-Ashram decided to force the Arabs to make their pilgrimage to this magnificent church, just as they had performed pilgrimage to the Ka`bah in Makkah. He announced this in his kingdom (Yemen), but it was rejected by the Arab tribes of `Adnan and Qahtan. The Quraysh were infuriated by it, so much so that one of them journeyed to the church and entered it one night. He then relieved himself in the church and ran away (escaping the people). When its custodians saw what he had done, they reported it to their king, Abrahah, saying; "One of the Quraysh has done this in anger over their House in whose place you have appointed this church.'' Upon hearing this, Abrahah swore to march to the House of Makkah (the Ka`bah) and destroy it stone by stone. Muqatil bin Sulayman mentioned that a group of young men from the Quraysh entered the church and started a fire in it on an extremely windy day. So the church caught on fire and collapsed to the ground. Due to this Abrahah prepared himself and set out with a huge and powerful army so that none might prevent him from carrying out his mission. He took along a great, powerful elephant that had a huge body the like of which had never been seen before. This elephant was called Mahmud and it was sent to Abrahah from An-Najashi, the king of Abyssinia, particularly for this expedition. It has also been said that he had eight other elephants with him; their number was also reported to be twelve, plus the large one, Mahmud -- and Allah knows best. Their intention was to use this big elephant to demolish the Ka`bah. They planned to do this by fastening chains to the pillars of the Ka`bah and placing the other ends around the neck of the elephant. Then they would make the elephant pull on them in order to tear down the walls of the Ka`bah all at one time. When the Arabs heard of Abrahah's expedition, they considered it an extremely grave matter. They held it to be an obligation upon them to defend the Sacred House and repel whoever intended a plot against it. Thus, the noblest man of the people of Yemen and the greatest of their chiefs set out to face him (Abrahah). His name was Dhu Nafr. He called his people, and whoever would respond to his call among the Arabs, to go to war against Abrahah and fight in defense of the Sacred House. He called the people to stop Abrahah's plan to demolish and tear down the Ka`bah. So the people responded to him and they entered into battle with Abrahah, but he defeated them. This was due to Allah's will and His intent to honor and venerate the Ka`bah.


Dhu Nafr was captured and taken along with the army of Abrahah.
The army continued on its way until it came to the land of Khath`am where it was confronted by Nufayl bin Habib Al-Kath`ami along with his people, the Shahran and Nahis tribes. They fought Abrahah but he defeated them and captured Nufayl bin Habib. Initially he wanted to kill him, but he forgave him and took him as his guide to show him the way to Al-Hijaz.
When they approached the area of At-Ta'if, its people -- the people of Thaqif -- went out to Abrahah. They wanted to appease him because they were fearful for their place of worship, which they called Al-Lat. Abrahah was kind to them and they sent a man named Abu Righal with him as a guide. When they reached a place known as Al-Mughammas, which is near Makkah, they settled there. Then he sent his troops on a foray to capture the camels and other grazing animals of the Makkans, which they did, including about two hundred camels belonging to `Abdul-Muttalib. The leader of this particular expedition was a man named Al-Aswad bin Mafsud. According to what Ibn Ishaq mentioned, some of the Arabs used to satirize him (because of the part he played in this historical in this historical incident). Then Abrahah sent an emissary named Hanatah Al-Himyari to enter Makkah, commanding him to bring the head of the Quraysh to him. He also commanded him to inform him that the king will not fight the people of Makkah unless they try to prevent him from the destruction of the Ka`bah. Hanatah went to the city and he was directed to `Abdul-Muttalib bin Hashim, to whom he relayed Abrahah's message. `Abdul-Muttalib replied, "By Allah! We have no wish to fight him, nor are we in any position to do so. This is the Sacred House of Allah, and the house of His Khalil, Ibrahim, and if He wishes to prevent him (Abrahah) from (destroying) it, it is His House and His Sacred Place (to do so). And if He lets him approach it, by Allah, We have no means to defend it from him.'' So Hanatah told him, "Come with me to him (Abrahah).'' And so `Abdul-Muttalib went with him. When Abrahah saw him, he was impressed by him, because `Abdul-Muttalib was a large and handsome man. So Abrahah descended from his seat and sat with him on a carpet on the ground. Then he asked his translator to say to him, "What do you need'' `Abdul-Muttalib replied to the translator, "I want the king to return my camels which he has taken from me which are two hundred in number.'' Abrahah then told his translator to tell him, "I was impressed by you when I first saw you, but now I withdraw from you after you have spoken to me. You are asking me about two hundred camels which I have taken from you and you leave the matter of a house which is (the foundation of) religion and the religion of your fathers, which I have come to destroy and you do not speak to me about it'' `Abdul-Muttalib said to him, "Verily, I am the lord of the camels. As for the House, it has its Lord Who will defend it.'' Abrahah said, "I cannot be prevented (from destroying it).'' `Abdul-Muttalib answered, "Then do so.'' It is said that a number of the chiefs of the Arabs accompanied `Abdul-Muttalib and offered Abrahah a third of the wealth of the tribe of Tihamah if he would withdraw from the House, but he refused and returned `Abdul-Muttalib's camels to him. `Abdul-Muttalib then returned to his people and ordered them to leave Makkah and seek shelter at the top of the mountains, fearful of the excesses which might be committed by the army against them. Then he took hold of the metal ring of the door of the Ka`bah, and along with a number of Quraysh, he called upon Allah to give them victory over Abrahah and his army. `Abdul-Muttalib said, while hanging on to the ring of the Ka`bah's door, "There is no matter more important to any man right now than the defense of his livestock and property. So, O my Lord! Defend Your property. Their cross and their cunning will not be victorious over your cunning by the time morning comes.'' According to Ibn Ishaq, then `Abdul-Muttalib let go of the metal ring of the door of the Ka`bah, and they left Makkah and ascended to the mountains tops. Muqatil bin Sulayman mentioned that they left one hundred animals (camels) tied near the Ka`bah hoping that some of the army would take some of them without a right to do so, and thus bring about the vengeance of Allah upon themselves.

When morning came, Abrahah prepared to enter the sacred city of Makkah. He prepared the elephant named Mahmud. He mobilized his army, and they turned the elephant towards the Ka`bah. At that moment Nufayl bin Habib approached it and stood next to it, and taking it by its ear, he said, "Kneel, Mahmud! Then turn around and return directly to whence you came. For verily, you are in the Sacred City of Allah.'' Then he released the elephant's ear and it knelt, after which Nufayl bin Habib left and hastened to the mountains. Abrahah's men beat the elephant in an attempt to make it rise, but it refused. They beat it on its head with axes and used hooked staffs to pull it out of its resistance and make it stand, but it refused. So they turned him towards Yemen, and he rose and walked quickly. Then they turned him towards Ash-Sham and he did likewise. Then they turned him towards the east and he did the same thing. Then they turned him towards Makkah and he knelt down again. Then Allah sent against them the birds from the sea, like swallows and herons. Each bird carried three stones the size of chickpeas and lentils, one in each claw and one in its beak. Everyone who was hit by them was destroyed, though not all of them were hit. They fled in panic along the road asking about the whereabouts of Nufayl that he might point out to them the way home. Nufayl, however, was at the top of the mountain with the Quraysh and the Arabs of the Hijaz observing the wrath which Allah had caused to descend on the people of the elephant. Nufayl then began to say, "Where will they flee when the One True God is the Pursuer For Al-Ashram is defeated and not the victor. Ibn Ishaq reported that Nufayl said these lines of poetry at that time,
"Didn't you live with continued support We favored you all with a revolving eye in the morning (i.e., a guide along the way). If you saw, but you did not see it at the side of the rock covered mountain that which we saw. Then you will excuse me and praise my affair, and do not grieve over what is lost between us. I praised Allah when I saw the birds, and I feared that the stones might be thrown down upon us. So all the people are asking about the whereabouts of Nufayl, as if I have some debt that I owe the Abyssinians.'' `Ata' bin Yasar and others have said that all of them were not struck by the torment at this hour of retribution. Rather some of them were destroyed immediately, while others were gradually broken down limb by limb while trying to escape. Abrahah was of those who was broken down limb by limb until he eventually died in the land of Khath`am. Ibn Ishaq said that they left (Makkah) being struck down and destroyed along every path and at every water spring. Abrahah's body was afflicted by the pestilence of the stones and his army carried him away with them as he was falling apart piece by piece, until they arrived back in San`a'. When they arrived there he was but like the baby chick of a bird. And he did not die until his heart fell out of his chest. So they claim. Ibn Ishaq said that when Allah sent Muhammad with the prophethood, among the things that he used to recount to the Quraysh as blessings that Allah had favored them with of His bounties, was His defending them from the attack of the Abyssinians. Due to this they (the Quraysh) were allowed to remain (safely in Makkah) for a period of time.

Thus, Allah said,
[أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ فَعَلَ رَبُّكَ بِأَصْحَـبِ الْفِيلِ - أَلَمْ يَجْعَلْ كَيْدَهُمْ فِى تَضْلِيلٍ - وَأَرْسَلَ عَلَيْهِمْ طَيْراً أَبَابِيلَ - تَرْمِيهِم بِحِجَارَةٍ مِّن سِجِّيلٍ - فَجَعَلَهُمْ كَعَصْفٍ مَّأْكُولِ ]

(Have you not seen how your Lord dealt with the Owners of the Elephant Did He not make their plot go astray And He sent against them birds, in flocks (Ababil). Striking them with stones of Sijjil. And He made them like `Asf, Ma'kul.)
[لإِيلَـفِ قُرَيْشٍ - إِيلَـفِهِمْ رِحْلَةَ الشِّتَآءِ وَالصَّيْفِ - فَلْيَعْبُدُواْ رَبَّ هَـذَا الْبَيْتِ - الَّذِى أَطْعَمَهُم مِّن جُوعٍ وَءَامَنَهُم مِّنْ خوْفٍ ]

(For the Ilaf of the Quraysh, their Ilaf caravans, in winter and in summer. So, let them worship the Lord of this House, Who has fed them against hunger, and has made them safe from fear.) (106:1-4) meaning, that Allah would not alter their situation because Allah wanted good for them if they accepted Him. Ibn Hisham said, "Al-Ababil are the groups, as the Arabs do not speak of just one (bird).'' He also said, "As for As-Sijjil, Yunus An-Nahwi and Abu `Ubaydah have informed me that according to the Arabs, it means something hard and solid.'' He then said, "Some of the commentators have mentioned that it is actually two Persian words that the Arabs have made into one word. The two words are Sanj and Jil, Sanj meaning stones, and Jil meaning clay. The rocks are of these two types: stone and clay.'' He continued saying, "Al-`Asf are the leaves of the crops that are not gathered. One of them is called `Asfah.'' This is the end of what he mentioned. Hammad bin Salamah narrated from `Asim, who related from Zirr, who related from `Abdullah and Abu Salamah bin `Abdur-Rahman that they said,
[طَيْراً أَبَابِيلَ]

(birds Ababil.) "In groups.'' Ibn `Abbas and Ad-Dahhak both said, "Ababil means some of them following after others.'' Al-Hasan Al-Basri and Qatadah both said, "Ababil means many.'' Mujahid said, "Ababil means in various, successive groups.'' Ibn Zayd said, "Ababil means different, coming from here and there. They came upon them from everywhere.'' Al-Kasa'i said, "I heard some of the grammarians saying, "The singular of Ababil is Ibil.'' Ibn Jarir recorded from Ishaq bin `Abdullah bin Al-Harith bin Nawfal that he said concerning Allah's statement,
[وَأَرْسَلَ عَلَيْهِمْ طَيْراً أَبَابِيلَ ]

(And He sent against them birds, Ababil.) "This means in divisions just as camels march in divisions (in their herds).'' It is reported that Ibn `Abbas said,
[وَأَرْسَلَ عَلَيْهِمْ طَيْراً أَبَابِيلَ ]

(And He sent against them birds, Ababil.) "They had snouts like the beaks of birds and paws like the paws of dogs.'' It has been reported that `Ikrimah said commenting on Allah's statement,
[طَيْراً أَبَابِيلَ]

(birds, Ababil.) "They were green birds that came out of the sea and they had heads like the heads of predatory animals.'' It has been reported from `Ubayd bin `Umayr that he commented:
[طَيْراً أَبَابِيلَ]

(birds, Ababil.) "They were black birds of the sea that had stones in their beaks and claws.'' And the chains of narration (for these statements) are all authentic. It is reported from `Ubayd bin `Umayr that he said, "When Allah wanted to destroy the People of the Elephant, he sent birds upon them that came from sea swallows. Each of the birds was carrying three small stones -- two stones with its feet and one stone in its beak. They came until they gathered in rows over their heads. Then they gave a loud cry and threw what was in their claws and beaks. Thus, no stone fell upon the head of any man except that it came out of his behind (i.e., it went through him), and it did not fall on any part of his body except that it came out from the opposite side. Then Allah sent a severe wind that struck the stones and increased them in force. Thus, they were all destroyed.''


Concerning Allah's statement,
[فَجَعَلَهُمْ كَعَصْفٍ مَّأْكُولِ ]
(And He made them like `Asf, Ma'kul.) Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "This means straw, which the common people call Habbur.'' In a report from Sa`id he said, "The leaves of wheat.'' He also said, "Al-`Asf is straw, and Al-Ma'kul refers to the fodder that is cut for animals.'' Al-Hasan Al-Basri said the same thing. Ibn `Abbas said, "Al-`Asf is the shell of the grain, just like the covering of wheat.'' Ibn Zayd said, "Al-`Asf are the leaves of vegetation and produce. When the cattle eat it they defecate it out and it becomes dung.'' The meaning of this is that Allah destroyed them, annihilated them and repelled them in their plan and their anger. They did not achieve any good. He made a mass destruction of them, and not one of them returned (to their land) to relate what happened except that he was wounded. This is just like what happened to their king, Abrahah. For indeed he was split open, exposing his heart when he reached his land of San`a'. He informed the people of what happened to them and then he died. His son Yaksum became the king after him, and then Yaksum's brother, Masruq bin Abrahah succeeded him. Then Sayf bin Dhi Yazan Al-Himyari went to Kisra (the king of Persia) and sought his help against the Abyssinians. Therefore, Kisra dispatched some of his army with Sayf Al-Himyari to fight with him against the Abyssinians. Thus, Allah returned their kingdom to them (i.e., the Arabs of Yemen) along with all the sovereignty their fathers possessed. Then large delegations of Arabs came to him (Sayf Al-Himyari) to congratulate him for their victory. We have mentioned previously in the Tafsir of Surat Al-Fath that when the Messenger of Allah approached the mountain pass that would lead him to the Quraysh on the Day of Al-Hudaybiyyah, his she-camel knelt down. Then the people attempted to make her get up but she refused. So, the people said, "Al-Qaswa' has become stubborn.'' The Prophet replied,
«مَا خَلَأَتِ الْقَصْوَاءُ، وَمَا ذَاكَ لَهَا بِخُلُقٍ، وَلَكِنْ حَبَسَهَا حَابِسُ الْفِيل»

(Al-Qaswa' has not become stubborn, for that is not part of her character. Rather, she has been stopped by He Who restrained the Elephant (of Abrahah).) Then he said,
«وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَا يَسْأَلُونِّي الْيَوْمَ خُطَّةً يُعَظِّمُونَ فِيهَا حُرُمَاتِ اللهِ إِلَّا أَجَبْتُهُمْ إِلَيْهَا»

(I swear by He in Whose Hand is my soul, they (the Quraysh) will not ask me for any matter (of the treaty) in which the sacred things of Allah are honored except that I will agree with them on it.) Then he beckoned the she-camel to rise and she stood up. This Hadith is of those that Al-Bukhari was alone in recording. It has been recorded in the Two Sahihs that on the Day of the conquest of Makkah, the Messenger of Allah said,
«إِنَّ اللهَ حَبَسَ عَنْ مَكَّةَ الْفِيلَ، وَسَلَّطَ عَلَيْهَا رَسُولَهُ وَالْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَإِنَّهُ قَدْ عَادَتْ حُرْمَتُهَا الْيَوْمَ كَحُرْمَتِهَا بِالْأَمْسِ، أَلَا فَلْيُبَلِّغِ الشَّاهِدُ الْغَائِب»
(Verily, Allah restrained the Elephant from Makkah, and He has given His Messenger and the believers authority over it. And indeed its sacredness has returned just as it was sacred yesterday. So, let those who are present inform those who are absent. ) This is the end of the Tafsir of Surat Al-Fil, and all praise and thanks are due to Allah.


So how is all this relevant to the Qur’an? Firstly, the Arabs didn’t keep track of special events by dates, if something out of the ordinary happened it might be referred to as the “year of the flood” or the “year of the fire”. The “year of the elephant” is the year that the Prophet Muhammad, (pbuh) was born! And Abdul Muttaalib, the “lord of the camels”, is none other than the grandfather of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh)!!!


Tafseer and Seerah hold many other stories about Abdul Muttaalib and this event as well. So without them, the translations on there are lacking in demension, severely, in my opinion.

Sorry for such a long post…:exhausted

:w:
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north_malaysian
03-08-2007, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I have the 'Penguin Classics' version, of the N.J. Dawood translation first published in 1956. I've no idea how good a translation or not that is, to be honest, having nothing to compare it with. I bought that particular edition simply because it has the Arabic text in parallel, and while I don't read Arabic it is something I keep meaning to learn. I'll get around to it one day.
Nessim Joseph Dawood was an Iraqi Jew. He translated "Banu Adam" (Children of Adam) to "Children of Allah". I've read about the reviews of it somewhere months ago.

The best are those of Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Pickthall.
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AzizMostafa
03-08-2007, 12:27 PM
To better understand the words of God, Arabs and non-Arabs are advised to re-arrange the Glorious Quranic verses in the order they were revealed to Prohet+Messenger Mohammed (peace be on him). Only then, they will find answers to my questions:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...st-tafsir.html
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Muhammad
03-08-2007, 04:40 PM
:sl: and Greetings,

These threads might also be helpful for reviews of translations:

http://www.islamicboard.com/educatio...ou-prefer.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ons-quran.html

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al 'Adl
I am familiar with them, but I wouldn't recommend either of them. NJ Dawood's translation is not accepted by any Muslims due to a number of mistranslations, and his rearranging the Qur'anic chapters does not allow one the complete benefit of reading the Qur'an in the normal order...
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Trumble
03-08-2007, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
The best are those of Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Pickthall.
I'll try and get hold of one of those; thanks.
Reply

Muhammad
03-09-2007, 12:37 AM
Hello,

I thought I'd just mention this post as well:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al 'Adl
From an Aqeedah (creed/beliefs) perspective, the Khan/Hilali translation is the most accurate. It can be read here:
http://www.al-sunnah.com/call_to_islam/quran/index.html

Yusuf Ali is very smooth from an english perspective, however there are errors in the commentary and minor inaccuracies in the translation. Muhammad F. Malik is another smooth translation.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi's trnalstion has some interesting commentary which provides a comparative religion perspective. It is also a fairly good translation.

The best translation is probably The Qur'aan: Arabic text with corresponding english meanings. Released by Saheeh International.
Here are a couple of links:

Al-Qur'an : Guidance for Mankind English translation of the meaning by Muhammad Farooq-i-Azam Malik. Links (English Only Paperback, Arabic and English Hardback, Travel Size Paperback).

The Qur'aan: Arabic text with corresponding english meanings released by Saheeh International. Link (Here, Download here).

Please see the threads I mentioned above for more info and links.
Reply

Yanal
03-09-2007, 12:43 AM
mashlah mashlah may allah bless you i love this thread i would like to know how do you become a senior member? i know this has nothing to do with this but still i would like to know how do you become a senior member? please and thank you Love Yanal
:w:
Reply

north_malaysian
03-09-2007, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I'll try and get hold of one of those; thanks.
In the International Islamic University Malaysia, we used Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation..
Reply

AzizMostafa
03-09-2007, 04:53 AM
According to your translation to (3:7), which one is correct, A or B?
______________________A______________________
And none knows its interpretation, save only God and those firmly rooted in knowledge
They say: "We believe in it; all is from our Lord", yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.
______________________B______________________
And none knows its interpretation, save only God.
And those firmly rooted in knowledge say:
"We believe in it; all is from our Lord", yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.
______________________C______________________
If A, who are those firmly rooted in knowledge?
If B, how did the translator know the interpretation of Quran?
Reply

Cyril
03-09-2007, 08:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AzizMostafa
According to your translation to (3:7), which one is correct, A or B?
______________________A______________________
And none knows its interpretation, save only God and those firmly rooted in knowledge
They say: "We believe in it; all is from our Lord", yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.
______________________B______________________
And none knows its interpretation, save only God.
And those firmly rooted in knowledge say:
"We believe in it; all is from our Lord", yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.
______________________C______________________
If A, who are those firmly rooted in knowledge?
If B, how did the translator know the interpretation of Quran?
I had a discussion about that verse two days ago. Two of the most common editions of the Arabic Quran have either a meem between "save only God" and "and those firmly rooted in knowledge" which corresponds to a full-stop, or a qilee which corresponds to a stop or a comma.

Out of fifteen translations in various languages I have found only two who follow translation A.
Reply

AzizMostafa
04-12-2007, 06:27 AM
Surely, it is a Noble Quran, in a hidden Book. (56:77-79)
None handles (explains) it save the Purified ones (33:33)
They took (knowledge) directly from God through the truthful Prophet.
It is through them, not others, that God brings conquest.
It is through them, not others, that God sets the seal on successorship.
Or did I misunderstand?!
Reply

Hemoo
04-12-2007, 09:33 AM
here are some good programs :

The Qur'an meaning Translations:
1- Islam introduction & Qur'an translation (i recommend it)
2- THE HOLY QUR'AN Translation
3- Qur'an translation document

but you can't 100 % rely on the translation without going to the original Arabic text.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-18-2007, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
for "Christian" books, Zondervan Publishing does some nifty study bibles and...nevermind, i don't want to offend Gene! :eek:

:w:
Am I so easily offended?


I used to work for Zondervan. They do produce some nifty study bibles and other reference works. As do several other companies: Nelson, Holman, Eerdmanns, Abingdon and Baker to name a few.

I can also tell you that Zondervan is also a business needing to make money to stay in business, and selling books (even Bibles) is a good way to go broke. They make their money in putting out what we who worked for them effectionally called Jesus Junk and God Garbage -- all the little trinkets and plaques that people seem to love to buy.

I know this thread is months old, but I just stumbled on it for the first time today, and I'm really curious what you were going to say.
Reply

YusufNoor
05-19-2007, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Am I so easily offended?


I used to work for Zondervan. They do produce some nifty study bibles and other reference works. As do several other companies: Nelson, Holman, Eerdmanns, Abingdon and Baker to name a few.

I can also tell you that Zondervan is also a business needing to make money to stay in business, and selling books (even Bibles) is a good way to go broke. They make their money in putting out what we who worked for them effectionally called Jesus Junk and God Garbage -- all the little trinkets and plaques that people seem to love to buy.

I know this thread is months old, but I just stumbled on it for the first time today, and I'm really curious what you were going to say.
Peace be to those upon Guidance,

you know, i can't seem to locate that train of thought...:-[

and right now, i'm a little more curious than you are! :?

oh well, if it ever comes back into the station, i'll let you know! :)

i've been a little occupied having found the Sister, that Insha Allah, i'll marry VERY soon! :statisfie

wa Salaam,

Yusuf

ps: the NIV Study Bible, which is also in NASB now, is a nice piece of work! i was pondering, pre-Islamic Days of course, checking out their Reformation Bible.

but erm, Jesus Junk and God Garbage? :omg: edit :rollseyes
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-19-2007, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
i've been a little occupied having found the Sister, that Insha Allah, i'll marry VERY soon! :statisfie

wa Salaam,

Yusuf

Hey, hey!!! Congratulations!!!!

I wish you and your beloved the very best.





P.S. If you are still in a pre-Islamic mood, how about breaking out the study Bible and reading a little Song of Solomon on the night of your wedding:
Song of Solomon, chapter 1

1 Solomon's Song of Songs.


Beloved
2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth—
for your love is more delightful than wine.
3 Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes;
your name is like perfume poured out.
No wonder the maidens love you!

4 Take me away with you—let us hurry!
Let the king bring me into his chambers.


Friends
We rejoice and delight in you;
we will praise your love more than wine.

Beloved
How right they are to adore you!
5 Dark am I, yet lovely,
O daughters of Jerusalem,
dark like the tents of Kedar,
like the tent curtains of Solomon.

6 Do not stare at me because I am dark,
because I am darkened by the sun.
My mother's sons were angry with me
and made me take care of the vineyards;
my own vineyard I have neglected.

7 Tell me, you whom I love, where you graze your flock
and where you rest your sheep at midday.
Why should I be like a veiled woman
beside the flocks of your friends?

Friends
8 If you do not know, most beautiful of women,
follow the tracks of the sheep
and graze your young goats
by the tents of the shepherds.
Lover
9 I liken you, my darling, to a mare
harnessed to one of the chariots of Pharaoh.
10 Your cheeks are beautiful with earrings,
your neck with strings of jewels.

11 We will make you earrings of gold,
studded with silver.

Beloved
12 While the king was at his table,
my perfume spread its fragrance.
13 My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh
resting between my breasts.

14 My lover is to me a cluster of henna blossoms
from the vineyards of En Gedi.

Lover
15 How beautiful you are, my darling!
Oh, how beautiful!
Your eyes are doves.
Beloved
16 How handsome you are, my lover!
Oh, how charming!
And our bed is verdant.

I'll stop there because I understand that there are sometimes younger folk who read these forums.
Reply

Balthasar21
05-24-2007, 09:42 PM
if the Qur'aan the true words of Allah why are their diffrent translation . Are these translation for the diffrent school of thought for the 81 or more diffrent Sects of muslims ?
Reply

جوري
05-25-2007, 12:05 AM
I don't understand your question?.... Perhaps because it is very silly--some argue that Robert Bly who is a poet himself has done a great job translating the work of Antonio Machado, some think he has done it great injustice? you can be the judge once you have done some reading of the book in original tongue and of the translation-- one can evoke a sentiment ( a feeling) or one can translate the literal word. It depends on the reader's point of view. If you want the work unadulterated, you'll either have to learn Spanish and spare yourself the confusion or go through more than one source to get the full bloodied feel of it, or just take people's word on who is the best translator and be content that you learn an emotion through his eyes....
The Quran has been in Arabic tongue unchanged since its beginning.
The the language of the Quran is at the epitome of Arabic grammar. one needs to look at just one Sura, suret An Nazi'At, to see Pickthal struggle finding multiple words for just two very profound and descriptive ones in Arabic... that is how brilliant the language of the Quran, how meaningful.

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
وَالنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقًا {1}
two words Pickthal used 7
[Pickthal 79:1] By those who drag forth to destruction,

وَالنَّاشِطَاتِ نَشْطًا {2}
Again two words
[Pickthal 79:2] By the meteors rushing,
Pickthal used 4

وَالسَّابِحَاتِ سَبْحًا {3}
[Pickthal 79:3] By the lone stars floating,
two words while pickthal uses 5

فَالسَّابِقَاتِ سَبْقًا {4}
[Pickthal 79:4] By the angels hastening,
two words, pickthal uses 4

فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا {5}
[Pickthal 79:5] And those who govern the event,
two words- pickthal uses 6

يَوْمَ تَرْجُفُ الرَّاجِفَةُ {6}
[Pickthal 79:6] On the day when the first trump resoundeth.
three words pickthal uses 8

تَتْبَعُهَا الرَّادِفَةُ {7}
[Pickthal 79:7] And the second followeth it,
two words pickhal uses 5

قُلُوبٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَاجِفَةٌ {8}
[Pickthal 79:8] On that day hearts beat painfully
3 words pickthal uses 6

أَبْصَارُهَا خَاشِعَةٌ {9}
[Pickthal 79:9] While eyes are downcast
two words pickthal uses 4

I don't think you quite understand, how profound and powerful two words are, that you need a library of words to describe them, then carry that abstract thought through, to understand, how precise, poetic, rhythmic, sequential, and meaningful the Quran is, and take the challenge to come up with a a sura not an entire book like it...

lastly I am not sure who the "81" sects you are talking about. Pls --I insist you list every last one!
thanks
Reply

Trumble
05-25-2007, 12:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
if the Qur'aan the true words of Allah why are their diffrent translation . Are these translation for the diffrent school of thought for the 81 or more diffrent Sects of muslims ?
No, although perhaps the personal beliefs of some of the translators have an influence.

It's just that any translation between languages is as much an art as it is a science. If you translate literally it rarely makes sense which means a certain degree of 'interpretation' is required, and each translator will have a different style. You can see that in languages far more closely related than modern English and Quran'ic Arabic. For example I have two translations of Rousseau's 'The Social Contract' on the shelf, and while they say the same thing the actual phrasing and word selection varies considerably.

There is a huge link between language and thought pattern as well. Good translation requires an intuitive feel for, and the ability to think in, both languages. Very few people are actually any good at it even for straightforward stuff.. even more so for philosophical, religious and poetic subjects.

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
one needs to look at just one Sura, suret An Nazi'At, to see Pickthal struggle finding multiple words for just two very profound and descriptive ones in Arabic... that is how brilliant the language of the Quran, how meaningful.
You don't think that someone translating Shakespeare (say) into Qur'anic Arabic might have much the same problem as Pickthal?
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-25-2007, 12:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
if the Qur'aan the true words of Allah why are their diffrent translation . Are these translation for the diffrent school of thought for the 81 or more diffrent Sects of muslims ?

For the same reason that there are multiple translations of any work that has value to others, but it is in a language they don't understand. That would be true even of a note I wrote for my wife to pick up some milk on her way home from work. If she didn't understand the language I wrote it in it would require a translation. And no translation would necessarily carry the full tenor of the meaning I was trying to convey. Imagine if the translation was literal, she might go into a store and pick up some milk. Then having done so, put it back on the store shelf and come home leaving it there. Translations have to find the balance between the words actually used and the meaning behind them. But as soon as one goes trying to convey meaning, then one is interpreting. You interpret that I wanted her to bring some milk home. It might be that all I really wanted her to do was to pick up some milk this time, because the soda people are upset that she keeps messing up their displays by doing her weight routine with their products.

Literal translation or dynamic thought translation, or somewhere inbetween. Each person has to make their own call on that decision. And because people answer that in many different ways there are going to be many different translations of the Qur'an, of the Bible, and of the note I write to my wife.
Reply

جوري
05-25-2007, 12:18 AM
I have to give reps to you both on a job well done.. sigh I think the time has come for me to move on.. the old members are working so well and in concert... Hope I am not speaking too soon lol
peace!
Reply

جوري
05-25-2007, 12:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble


You don't think that someone translating Shakespeare (say) into Qur'anic Arabic might have much the same problem?
proper Arabic you mean?-- I think English, even old English is a relatively simple language compared to Arabic, which is considered the 2nd most difficult language after Chinese...

we have words that aren't found in English and more letters in the alphabet, So I don't think there will really be a problem translating one word for another to denote the exact same thing in Arabic...

I don't want to go into Arabic grammar lessons right now... but there are things you can do with verbs in the way of adjectives. I am not sure I can articulate correctly what I mean, but you use the verb to both assert your meaning as well as make into an adjective, that is simply not found in languages like English...

Also there is a number of ways to conjugate for instance what makes you use the word Moslemeen or Muslimoon, they are essentially the plural to mean the same thing, but there is very stringent rules of grammar that enable you to conjugate one way and not the other Again not found in English, plural of Muslim will be Muslims not muslemees or muslimoos ... It is very expansive, and certainly can't be covered in one day.

Part of the reason really those of us who believe the Quran to be the literal word of G-D, I can't evoke that sentiment in you or even in any Muslim who isn't very familiar in Arabic. You make mistakes in every day grammar, you speak with different dialects, you speak of the language of the time, you have a particular style.
The Quran by contrast, no two suras have the same style, yet contextually, rhythmically, sequentially( I mean to say this because some Ayas in some suras came down 20 yrs apart, Makkya, madnya, and yet flow with the rest as if written on the same day) Also though the words are transcendent not archaic, that is part of the miracle of it, that many take for granted.
An analogy is Sort of like when I go through all the intermediates of glycolysis and tell you at some point in the process the products will split into dihydroxyacetonephosphate (DHAP) and glycerol-3-phosphate each of those intermediates goes on into a different pathway one to yeild pyruvate and the other into fatty acid synthesis, which is a whole cycle in and of itself, and it would mean absolutely nothing to you, even though the fact that it happens at all around the clock so that you can continue to live and thrive is truly nothing short of a miracle, yet it is common enough that no one sees it as such .. (eh it is just what happens) well how come it happens, how did it come to be, and why? and then people aren't too concerned ..
Anyhow, with that all said, I think it would be easier to translate English to Arabic than Arabic into English... and I have known a number of translators who worked at the United Nations who will attest to the same thing...

peace!
Reply

Balthasar21
05-25-2007, 07:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't understand your question?.... Perhaps because it is very silly--some argue that Robert Bly who is a poet himself has done a great job translating the work of Antonio Machado, some think he has done it great injustice? you can be the judge once you have done some reading of the book in original tongue and of the translation-- one can evoke a sentiment ( a feeling) or one can translate the literal word. It depends on the reader's point of view. If you want the work unadulterated, you'll either have to learn Spanish and spare yourself the confusion or go through more than one source to get the full bloodied feel of it, or just take people's word on who is the best translator and be content that you learn an emotion through his eyes....
The Quran has been in Arabic tongue unchanged since its beginning.
The the language of the Quran is at the epitome of Arabic grammar. one needs to look at just one Sura, suret An Nazi'At, to see Pickthal struggle finding multiple words for just two very profound and descriptive ones in Arabic... that is how brilliant the language of the Quran, how meaningful.

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
وَالنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقًا {1}
two words Pickthal used 7
[Pickthal 79:1] By those who drag forth to destruction,

وَالنَّاشِطَاتِ نَشْطًا {2}
Again two words
[Pickthal 79:2] By the meteors rushing,
Pickthal used 4

وَالسَّابِحَاتِ سَبْحًا {3}
[Pickthal 79:3] By the lone stars floating,
two words while pickthal uses 5

فَالسَّابِقَاتِ سَبْقًا {4}
[Pickthal 79:4] By the angels hastening,
two words, pickthal uses 4

فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا {5}
[Pickthal 79:5] And those who govern the event,
two words- pickthal uses 6

يَوْمَ تَرْجُفُ الرَّاجِفَةُ {6}
[Pickthal 79:6] On the day when the first trump resoundeth.
three words pickthal uses 8

تَتْبَعُهَا الرَّادِفَةُ {7}
[Pickthal 79:7] And the second followeth it,
two words pickhal uses 5

قُلُوبٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَاجِفَةٌ {8}
[Pickthal 79:8] On that day hearts beat painfully
3 words pickthal uses 6

أَبْصَارُهَا خَاشِعَةٌ {9}
[Pickthal 79:9] While eyes are downcast
two words pickthal uses 4

I don't think you quite understand, how profound and powerful two words are, that you need a library of words to describe them, then carry that abstract thought through, to understand, how precise, poetic, rhythmic, sequential, and meaningful the Quran is, and take the challenge to come up with a a sura not an entire book like it...

lastly I am not sure who the "81" sects you are talking about. Pls --I insist you list every last one!
thanks




if the Qur'aan the true words of Allah why are their diffrent translation . Are these translation for the diffrent school of thought for the 81 or more diffrent Sects of muslims ? I'm talking about these diffrent sect .


1 . Alawiy -ah 2 . Abadia -yah 3 . Shu'aib -iyah 4 . Ishaqiy -ah 5 . Zaidiay - ah 6 . Abbasi -yah 7 . Imamiy 8 . Narisiyah 9 . Tanasu - khiyah 10 . La'iniy -ah 11 . Rari'iya -h 12 . Murtazi -yah 13 . Azraqiy -ah 14 . Riyaziya 15 . Sa'labi -yah 16 . Jazimiy -ah 17 . Khalifiy -ah 18 . Kuziyah 19 . Kanziyah 20 . Mu'taz -ilah 21 . Maimu -niyah 22 . Muhka -miyah 23. Sirajiya -h 24 . Akhnasi -syah 25 . Muztari-yah 26 . Af'aliya -h 27 . Ma'iyah 28 . Tariqiy 29 . Bakhtiy -ah 30 . Mutam -anniyah 31 . Kaslani -yah 32 . Habbibi -yah 33 . Khaufiy -ah 34 . Fikriyah 35 . Hasabiy -ah 36 . Hujjati -yah 37 . Ahadiy -ah 38 . Sanawi -yah 39 . Kaisani -yah 40 . Shaitani -yah 41 . Shariki -yah 42 . Wahmi - yah 43 . Ruwaid -iyah 44 . Nakisiy -ah 45 . Mutaba -rriyah 46 . Qasitiyah 47 . Nazami - yah 48 . Mutawa -llifyah 49 . Mu'att-aliyah 50 . Mutara-bisiyah 51 , Mutara-qibiyah 52 . Waridiy -ah 53 . Harqiyah 54 . Makhlu -qiyah 55. Ibariya -h 56 , Faniyah 57 . Zanadi -qiyah 58 . Lafziyah 59 . Qabriyah 60 . Waqifiy -ah 61 . Tariqiy -ah 62 . Sha'iyah 63 . Rajiyah 64 . Shakkiy-ah 65 . Nahiyah 66 . 'Amaliy -ah 67 . Manqus -iyah 68 . Mustas-niyah 69 . Ash'ari-yyah 70 . Bid'iyah 71 . Mushab-bihiyah 72 . Hashawi -yah 73 . Hashaw -iyah 74 . Ansaar -ullah 75 . Ahmadi-yah 76 . Nation Of Islam 77. Five Percenters 78 . Bahi 79 . Nubian Islamic Hebrews 80 . African Islamic Mission 81 . Moorish Science Temple ( Just to name a few )

Now this is confuison ,Irtibaak , Balbala , For Islam , Or any other religion that has divided into Sects , And Differences of Opinions . What beautiful about confusion ? Right here in anerica , There are many Sects as well . According to the holy book of the muslim word , Allah speaks against dividing up into Sects . Here take a look ;

Qur'aan 23 ; 52 - 53 ( Yusef Ali )
And verily this brotherhood of your is a ( Single Brotherhood ) And I am your lord and cherisher ; Therefore fear me ( And No Other ) . But people have cut off their affair ( Of Unity ) Between them into Sects ; Each party rejoices in that which is with itself .

The Quraan mentions ONE SUNNAH , Which is Allah's SUNNAH , And I Quote ; Qur'aan 33 ; 62 ; ( Such Was ) The practice ( Approved ) of Allah among those who lived afortime ; No change wilt thou find in the practice ( approved ) of Allah ,

Which all the prophets were to live by . Now you have to admitted that there are many SUNNAHS in practice today resulting in many Jammats . Now my question is which one is Allah's SUNNAH ?
Reply

barney
05-25-2007, 07:53 AM
Go to the shop and buy some milk.
Reply

جوري
05-25-2007, 01:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
if the Qur'aan the true words of Allah why are their diffrent translation . Are these translation for the diffrent school of thought for the 81 or more diffrent Sects of muslims ? I'm talking about these diffrent sect .


1 . Alawiy -ah 2 . Abadia -yah 3 . Shu'aib -iyah 4 . Ishaqiy -ah 5 . Zaidiay - ah 6 . Abbasi -yah 7 . Imamiy 8 . Narisiyah 9 . Tanasu - khiyah 10 . La'iniy -ah 11 . Rari'iya -h 12 . Murtazi -yah 13 . Azraqiy -ah 14 . Riyaziya 15 . Sa'labi -yah 16 . Jazimiy -ah 17 . Khalifiy -ah 18 . Kuziyah 19 . Kanziyah 20 . Mu'taz -ilah 21 . Maimu -niyah 22 . Muhka -miyah 23. Sirajiya -h 24 . Akhnasi -syah 25 . Muztari-yah 26 . Af'aliya -h 27 . Ma'iyah 28 . Tariqiy 29 . Bakhtiy -ah 30 . Mutam -anniyah 31 . Kaslani -yah 32 . Habbibi -yah 33 . Khaufiy -ah 34 . Fikriyah 35 . Hasabiy -ah 36 . Hujjati -yah 37 . Ahadiy -ah 38 . Sanawi -yah 39 . Kaisani -yah 40 . Shaitani -yah 41 . Shariki -yah 42 . Wahmi - yah 43 . Ruwaid -iyah 44 . Nakisiy -ah 45 . Mutaba -rriyah 46 . Qasitiyah 47 . Nazami - yah 48 . Mutawa -llifyah 49 . Mu'att-aliyah 50 . Mutara-bisiyah 51 , Mutara-qibiyah 52 . Waridiy -ah 53 . Harqiyah 54 . Makhlu -qiyah 55. Ibariya -h 56 , Faniyah 57 . Zanadi -qiyah 58 . Lafziyah 59 . Qabriyah 60 . Waqifiy -ah 61 . Tariqiy -ah 62 . Sha'iyah 63 . Rajiyah 64 . Shakkiy-ah 65 . Nahiyah 66 . 'Amaliy -ah 67 . Manqus -iyah 68 . Mustas-niyah 69 . Ash'ari-yyah 70 . Bid'iyah 71 . Mushab-bihiyah 72 . Hashawi -yah 73 . Hashaw -iyah 74 . Ansaar -ullah 75 . Ahmadi-yah 76 . Nation Of Islam 77. Five Percenters 78 . Bahi 79 . Nubian Islamic Hebrews 80 . African Islamic Mission 81 . Moorish Science Temple ( Just to name a few )

Now this is confuison ,Irtibaak , Balbala , For Islam , Or any other religion that has divided into Sects , And Differences of Opinions . What beautiful about confusion ? Right here in anerica , There are many Sects as well . According to the holy book of the muslim word , Allah speaks against dividing up into Sects . Here take a look ;

Qur'aan 23 ; 52 - 53 ( Yusef Ali )
And verily this brotherhood of your is a ( Single Brotherhood ) And I am your lord and cherisher ; Therefore fear me ( And No Other ) . But people have cut off their affair ( Of Unity ) Between them into Sects ; Each party rejoices in that which is with itself .

The Quraan mentions ONE SUNNAH , Which is Allah's SUNNAH , And I Quote ; Qur'aan 33 ; 62 ; ( Such Was ) The practice ( Approved ) of Allah among those who lived afortime ; No change wilt thou find in the practice ( approved ) of Allah ,

Which all the prophets were to live by . Now you have to admitted that there are many SUNNAHS in practice today resulting in many Jammats . Now my question is which one is Allah's SUNNAH ?
lol.. I insist you go into some details about these sects.. admittedly I am a bit ignorant about most of them, the few that I can recognize are Bahais, and they are considered heretics, how can you tell a heretic? simple, read some history and then you can draw your own conclusions, people like Ahamdis for instance, were a recent institution, implemented by the British, after they invaded India-- put a wealthy schizophrenic named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who claimed he was Jesus, Mohammed and krishna reincarnate, into office to miss lead people and do their bidding, it has always been British philosophy to divide and conquer-- and has worked sufficiently well, except not all the people are as ignorant as they'd hoped! Ahmadyya were instituted in 1839, does that sound like Islam to you? The ignorant will always be led astray--then they can have some movements, heavily fostered by those who wish to distort the image of Islam, so everyone will be confused. Still 1.86 billion of the world's population are Muslim, and 90% of those are sunna -- we can't stop every Tom, Dick and Harry from doing their thing, then everyone screams persecution, do a simple "Ahmadi" search see what comes up -- and certainly Prophet Mohammed PBUH warned us of sectarianism, he said it wouldn't be stopped, but that Allah will always be with the majority (again the majority of Muslims are Sunni) ( 3la sunna Allah wa rasooloh) do a simple google search and see what sorts of sites come up specifically about Ahmadis and how they are being persecuted by Muslims.. who has interest in having these mislead people prosper? I am glad you quoted that verse... from the unchanged book, that then should be your key as to proper Islam

سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ فِي الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِن قَبْلُ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا {62}
[Pickthal 33:62] That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change.

سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ literally reads the "sunna" of Allah ( the path/ way) of Allah... Why would anyone wish to deviate from that and stil be considered Muslims :rollseyes ?

Hope we are done here?
Reply

Woodrow
05-25-2007, 01:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
if the Qur'aan the true words of Allah why are their diffrent translation . Are these translation for the diffrent school of thought for the 81 or more diffrent Sects of muslims ? I'm talking about these diffrent sect .


1 . Alawiy -ah 2 . Abadia -yah 3 . Shu'aib -iyah 4 . Ishaqiy -ah 5 . Zaidiay - ah 6 . Abbasi -yah 7 . Imamiy 8 . Narisiyah 9 . Tanasu - khiyah 10 . La'iniy -ah 11 . Rari'iya -h 12 . Murtazi -yah 13 . Azraqiy -ah 14 . Riyaziya 15 . Sa'labi -yah 16 . Jazimiy -ah 17 . Khalifiy -ah 18 . Kuziyah 19 . Kanziyah 20 . Mu'taz -ilah 21 . Maimu -niyah 22 . Muhka -miyah 23. Sirajiya -h 24 . Akhnasi -syah 25 . Muztari-yah 26 . Af'aliya -h 27 . Ma'iyah 28 . Tariqiy 29 . Bakhtiy -ah 30 . Mutam -anniyah 31 . Kaslani -yah 32 . Habbibi -yah 33 . Khaufiy -ah 34 . Fikriyah 35 . Hasabiy -ah 36 . Hujjati -yah 37 . Ahadiy -ah 38 . Sanawi -yah 39 . Kaisani -yah 40 . Shaitani -yah 41 . Shariki -yah 42 . Wahmi - yah 43 . Ruwaid -iyah 44 . Nakisiy -ah 45 . Mutaba -rriyah 46 . Qasitiyah 47 . Nazami - yah 48 . Mutawa -llifyah 49 . Mu'att-aliyah 50 . Mutara-bisiyah 51 , Mutara-qibiyah 52 . Waridiy -ah 53 . Harqiyah 54 . Makhlu -qiyah 55. Ibariya -h 56 , Faniyah 57 . Zanadi -qiyah 58 . Lafziyah 59 . Qabriyah 60 . Waqifiy -ah 61 . Tariqiy -ah 62 . Sha'iyah 63 . Rajiyah 64 . Shakkiy-ah 65 . Nahiyah 66 . 'Amaliy -ah 67 . Manqus -iyah 68 . Mustas-niyah 69 . Ash'ari-yyah 70 . Bid'iyah 71 . Mushab-bihiyah 72 . Hashawi -yah 73 . Hashaw -iyah 74 . Ansaar -ullah 75 . Ahmadi-yah 76 . Nation Of Islam 77. Five Percenters 78 . Bahi 79 . Nubian Islamic Hebrews 80 . African Islamic Mission 81 . Moorish Science Temple ( Just to name a few )

Now this is confuison ,Irtibaak , Balbala , For Islam , Or any other religion that has divided into Sects , And Differences of Opinions . What beautiful about confusion ? Right here in anerica , There are many Sects as well . According to the holy book of the muslim word , Allah speaks against dividing up into Sects . Here take a look ;

Qur'aan 23 ; 52 - 53 ( Yusef Ali )
And verily this brotherhood of your is a ( Single Brotherhood ) And I am your lord and cherisher ; Therefore fear me ( And No Other ) . But people have cut off their affair ( Of Unity ) Between them into Sects ; Each party rejoices in that which is with itself .

The Quraan mentions ONE SUNNAH , Which is Allah's SUNNAH , And I Quote ; Qur'aan 33 ; 62 ; ( Such Was ) The practice ( Approved ) of Allah among those who lived afortime ; No change wilt thou find in the practice ( approved ) of Allah ,

Which all the prophets were to live by . Now you have to admitted that there are many SUNNAHS in practice today resulting in many Jammats . Now my question is which one is Allah's SUNNAH ?
At the moment I am only going to reply to one question.

if the Qur'aan the true words of Allah why are their diffrent translation .
there is just one Qur'an and that is the same the world around. A translation is not considered the Qur'an and no translation contains the meanings of the Qur'an. A translation is just an approximate explanation of what was said in another language. Being just an approximation, it is doubtful any two translator would express the same meaning in the same words. Many Arabic words have no English counter part (oran equal in any other language) This is the reason a translation can not be considered the Qur'an. There is no true translation possible.
Reply

Balthasar21
05-25-2007, 02:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
lol.. I insist you go into some details about these sects.. admittedly I am a bit ignorant about most of them, the few that I can recognize are Bahais, and they are considered heretics, how can you tell a heretic? simple, read some history and then you can draw your own conclusions, people like Ahamdis for instance, were a recent institution, implemented by the British, after they invaded India-- put a wealthy schizophrenic named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who claimed he was Jesus, Mohammed and krishna reincarnate, into office to miss lead people and do their bidding, it has always been British philosophy to divide and conquer-- and has worked sufficiently well, except not all the people are as ignorant as they'd hoped! Ahmadyya were instituted in 1839, does that sound like Islam to you? The ignorant will always be led astray--then they can have some movements, heavily fostered by those who wish to distort the image of Islam, so everyone will be confused. Still 1.86 billion of the world's population are Muslim, and 90% of those are sunna -- we can't stop every Tom, Dick and Harry from doing their thing, then everyone screams persecution, do a simple "Ahmadi" search see what comes up -- and certainly Prophet Mohammed PBUH warned us of sectarianism, he said it wouldn't be stopped, but that Allah will always be with the majority (again the majority of Muslims are Sunni) ( 3la sunna Allah wa rasooloh) do a simple google search and see what sorts of sites come up specifically about Ahmadis and how they are being persecuted by Muslims.. who has interest in having these mislead people prosper? I am glad you quoted that verse... from the unchanged book, that then should be your key as to proper Islam

سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ فِي الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِن قَبْلُ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا {62}
[Pickthal 33:62] That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change.

سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ literally reads the "sunna" of Allah ( the path/ way) of Allah... Why would anyone wish to deviate from that and stil be considered Muslims :rollseyes ?

Hope we are done here?




I suggest you research the above Diffrent SECTS of muslims for yourself and , see if their school of though diffrent from yours so if the question come up you'll have a answer . You should ask your teacher if all muslims are brothers as they say , Why are their diffrent SECT of muslims and why aren't they all taught the same thing .
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-25-2007, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Go to the shop and buy some milk.

I tried, but at the first shop I went to they claimed they had no milk. They had tables and chairs and bookcases and all sorts of things made out of wood, but no milk. So, I tried another shop where a mechanic even crawled out from underneath an auto to talk to me, but again he insisted that they had no milk. So, I tried another where they were glad to sell me a camera or process my film but again no milk. Time and time again I would check this shop or that shop and while some wanted to milk some money from me; none of them would sell me any milk. Eventually I simply gave up. There is not a milkshop in this entire town. Finally, exhausted I stopped at the store to instead buy some pop, which I did, but I have to admit being a little distressed that I had to take the mom home too. I guess that's what I get for shopping at a mom & pop store.
Reply

Balthasar21
05-25-2007, 02:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I tried, but at the first shop I went to they claimed they had no milk. They had tables and chairs and bookcases and all sorts of things made out of wood, but no milk. So, I tried another shop where a mechanic even crawled out from underneath an auto to talk to me, but again he insisted that they had no milk. So, I tried another where they were glad to sell me a camera or process my film but again no milk. Time and time I would chech this shop or that shop and while some wanted to milk some money from me; none of them would sell me any milk. Eventually I simply gave up. There is not a milkshop in this entire town. Finally, exhausted I stopped at the store to instead buy some pop, which I did, but I have to admit being a little distressed that I had to take the mom home too. I guess that's what I get for shopping at a mom & pop store.




Is the above some type of code , Just wondering
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-25-2007, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
I suggest you research the above Diffrent SECTS of muslims for yourself and , see if their school of though diffrent from yours so if the question come up you'll have a answer . You should ask your teacher if all muslims are brothers as they say , Why are their diffrent SECT of muslims and why aren't they all taught the same thing .
I'm not even Muslim and your question makes little sense to me. If you had asked the same thing of Christiantiy, which has even more divisions within it than Islam, I would have told you that despite our differences, our commonalities are much greater. And that yes, all who are united to Christ are indeed adopted into the family of God and as such children of God. We therefore are all brothers and sisters in Christ and thus brothers and sisters of one another, though we have difference just like there are differences within any family. We have those differences because though we are all one big (sometimes happy, sometimes angry) family, that we are also still all individuals. And each one of us thinks for ourselves and has their own unique relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Sometimes these differences become enough to cause some division within the family, but it isn't enough to keep us from being family.
Reply

- Qatada -
05-25-2007, 02:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
I suggest you research the above Diffrent SECTS of muslims for yourself and , see if their school of though diffrent from yours so if the question come up you'll have a answer . You should ask your teacher if all muslims are brothers as they say , Why are their diffrent SECT of muslims and why aren't they all taught the same thing .

You asking about sects?


The Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

"Indeed those from before you from the People of the Book divided into seventy-two groups. And, indeed, this group (Muslims) will divide into seventy-three. Seventy-two groups will be in the Hellfire and one of them will be in Paradise. And it is the Jamaa'ah (group)." 3

And in another narration, he said: "Everyone of them in the Hellfire, except for one group that which I and my companions are upon." 4

Thats the answer to your question, because the praise is for Allaah we have the understanding of the companions of Qur'an and Sunnah preserved for us, and it will remain that way insha Allaah (God willing.)


http://tafsir.com

try checking that link to see the Qur'an and Sunnah according to the understanding of the Prophet and his companions (peace be upon him.)


Anyone who deviates from their way is going astray since they had the best understanding, why? Because they were present at the time the revelation was being sent down. Who else could have better understanding of the revelation apart from them?




Regards.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-25-2007, 02:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
Is the above some type of code , Just wondering
It's a simple response to Barney's question about why I don't go to the shop to buy some milk. It's also an explanation about why we have different translations. Yes, that explanation is in code, the code is idiomatic English. If you don't know the idioms you will not understand it and will need a different answer in English. But that would require another translation, thus explaining why there might be more than one translation of the Qur'an also. Translations are not about sects, but about language. Because there are idioms in all languages, so one needs to translate differently according to one's facility with the idioms of the language. I would like to explaim more, but I just heard all hell just break loose outside; my car windows are open and it's raining cats and dogs.
Reply

Balthasar21
05-25-2007, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I'm not even Muslim and your question makes little sense to me. If you had asked the same thing of Christiantiy, which has even more divisions within it than Islam, I would have told you that despite our differences, our commonalities are much greater. And that yes, all who are united to Christ are indeed adopted into the family of God and as such children of God. We therefore are all brothers and sisters in Christ and thus brothers and sisters of one another, though we have difference just like there are differences within any family. We have those differences because though we are all one big (sometimes happy, sometimes angry) family, that we are also still all individuals. And each one of us thinks for ourselves and has their own unique relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Sometimes these differences become enough to cause some division within the family, but it isn't enough to keep us from being family.



If you like we can discuss Christianity on another post , About the self Appointed Apostle , Saul , Shaool , Paul The Father Of Christianity Acts 11 ; 26 . if you wish .
Reply

جوري
05-25-2007, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
I suggest you research the above Diffrent SECTS of muslims for yourself and , see if their school of though diffrent from yours so if the question come up you'll have a answer . You should ask your teacher if all muslims are brothers as they say , Why are their diffrent SECT of muslims and why aren't they all taught the same thing .
Make me no suggestions, I don't value your opinion on an intellectual or even a debate level. You seem like a rookie with a not so clear agenda. I tire of rummaging through large volumes of cut and paste, and I don't think it reflects very well on you. I have no interest in sectarianism, and have clearely stated to you that 90% of Muslims are sunnis-- it so happens you are the one who brought them up, should make perfect sense that you be able to discuss them with some dexterity? and perhaps make your conclusion come as close to the point of posed question as much as possible. I am not really sure what is the purpose of all of this? a vulgar display of pseudo intellect? There is no sense wasting everyone's time!
peace!
Reply

Balthasar21
05-25-2007, 02:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Make me no suggestions, I don't value your opinion on an intellectual or even a debate level. You seem like a rookie with a not so clear agenda. I tire of rummaging through large volumes of cut and paste, and I don't think it reflects very well on you. I have no interest in sectarianism, and have clearely stated to you that 90% of Muslims are sunnis-- it so happens you are the one who brought them up, should make perfect sense that you be able to discuss them with some dexterity? and perhaps make your conclusion come as close to the point of posed question as much as possible. I am not really sure what is the purpose of all of this? a vulgar display of pseudo intellect? There is no sense wasting everyone's time!
peace!





I suggest you move on then , But your right about one thing your wasteing your time here , If your looking for a pat on the head or a well done from me your only going get it if you come right , This is all about agreeing to disagreeing not feeding one ego . By the way your opinion of me doesn't count just so you know .
Reply

جوري
05-25-2007, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
I suggest you move on then , But your right about one thing your wasteing your time here , If your looking for a pat on the head or a well done from me your only going get it if you come right , This is all about agreeing to disagreeing not feeding one ego . By the way your opinion of me doesn't count just so you know .
ooh I feel mortally wounded -- dreadful just dreadful--
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-25-2007, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21
I suggest you research the above Diffrent SECTS of muslims for yourself and , see if their school of though diffrent from yours so if the question come up you'll have a answer . You should ask your teacher if all muslims are brothers as they say , Why are their diffrent SECT of muslims and why aren't they all taught the same thing .
Are you suggesting that different sects of Muslims have different Qur'ans? I have been trying to follow this discussion. As best I can understand your point you see different sects within Islam and different translations of the Qur'an and hence are trying to make some sort of connection between those two observations. But there isn't one to be made.

While there are different sects and schools of thought within Islam, they all use the same Arabic Qur'an as their scripture. And those who don't speak Arabic but say English as their native tongue try to learn enough Arabic to read it in the original language. Those unable to read it in Arabic then find a translation in the language they do speak and read it in that, again without reference to sectarian issues, but with preferences based on the rules of translations (whether literal or dynamic thought) which they most prefer. Thus Muslims of different sects may all use the same transaltion and Muslims within a given sect may use many different translations. But more than that, Muslims, unlike Christians, of different sects will even worship together in many countries. From personal experience I know this is true in most Islamic communities located in the middle of the United States.

It is for these reasons that your questions regarding the relationship between different translations and different sects make no sense. There is no corelation between these issues. What makes you think that there is?
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