Why are you an atheist?

[deen_2007]

I have always wondered why some people may not believe in God when there is so much around you that proves that there has to be.

So for those who claim to be a Athiest, i was wondering if you would share your belief to why you have chosen to believe so. & also say why you may have left a certian religion (if u did)?

(_( hope this thread is in the right topic area..and hope no 1 is offeneded )_)

:peace:

[Karina]

Hi

I am not an Atheist, but and Agnostic - I know they're fairly different in meaning, but I thought I would share my view anyway.

I do not believe that absolutely there is no God or supreme being, I believe that it is impossible to know in full certainty that one actually exists or has existed.

I do not completely rule it out, but sometimes find it thoroughly hard to conceive. The likelyhood is that I (and most of us on this earth in my opinion) will never know with absolute certainty, so therefore I will probably remain an Agnostic for the rest of my life.

I sometimes look at the world and think to myself "How could all this be here by chance, how could it not have been created by a higher power or being???", but then I wonder why people, all over the world, worship so many different gods - who is right?

Are you, a Muslim, right because you are part of the supposedly fastest growing religion of our time? Is the Hindu the one who is right, with his polytheistic beliefs? Who is to say the Jew is incorrect? Is the Scientologist really all that wrong, a suposedly far-fetched set of beliefs, but can we really dismiss their ideas as being wrong??

Of course there are so many many more followers of so many more religions, and some of those worshipers and followers have never heard of Islam or Christianity or Buddhism, and maybe they never will. They will continue with their own beliefs blissfully unaware of others.

So. Who is right? Are you right because your parents and community taught you your beliefs, or are you right because you know beyond any boundries of doubt, that the figure of worship is present in some form or some shape, somewhere, and is all-seeing-all-knowing??? Or... are you right because you are scared to be wrong??

"I believe that God exists" does not necessarily mean "I know for certain God exists".

I am Agnostic (or "Not Sure" in simpler terms!) because sometimes I see no reason to believe in a God, and other times I have no way of proving, or disproving it.

Can I also ask a question? Why are you religious?

[Harrumph]

I suppose the answer for me is that i have no faith in god,although i live in a secular country i have been surrounded by christianity my whole life,i have read and studied the bible and i have never seen or felt anything that has given me cause to have faith in god.Ive said before i believe organised religion is a way of controlling people,and for hundreds of years(not so much now,but its still relevant in some ways)its been used to keep people ignorant and under the heel of the "Elite" ruling classes.It can also be twisted and perverted to justify the most atrocious acts,some of the most base and inhuman acts in history have been perpetrated in the name of religion,even in the last few years Bush and Blair have both stated that they believe god has guided them in thier actions.

To me the teachings of Jesus are pretty clear,and if one follows these teachings(or at least try to)i believe you will lead a good and fruitfull life,that is enough for me,i dont think you need to be religious to appreciate the message,i see no reason why a belief in a god or acts of worship should be required for me to live a full and happy life.I dont believe in an afterlife so any fear factor that may result from not having faith or following any religious teachings does not effect me.

[Karina]

I suppose the answer for me is that i have no faith in god,although i live in a secular country i have been surrounded by christianity my whole life,i have read and studied the bible and i have never seen or felt anything that has given me cause to have faith in god.Ive said before i believe organised religion is a way of controlling people,and for hundreds of years(not so much now,but its still relevant in some ways)its been used to keep people ignorant and under the heel of the "Elite" ruling classes.It can also be twisted and perverted to justify the most atrocious acts,some of the most base and inhuman acts in history have been perpetrated in the name of religion,even in the last few years Bush and Blair have both stated that they believe god has guided them in thier actions.

To me the teachings of Jesus are pretty clear,and if one follows these teachings(or at least try to)i believe you will lead a good and fruitfull life,that is enough for me,i dont think you need to be religious to appreciate the message,i see no reason why a belief in a god or acts of worship should be required for me to live a full and happy life.I dont believe in an afterlife so any fear factor that may result from not having faith or following any religious teachings does not effect me.

Ditto.

PS. I agree - the teachings of a lot of religions provide a good template for living, but as far as the belief in a "God", well, I'm certainly not convinced, as I have explained above.

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[strider]

Although i believe in the existance of God, i can understand why somebody would choose not to believe.

[deen_2007]

Although i believe in the existance of God, i can understand why somebody would choose not to believe.

how? why.....? how can u understand? i cant ...

[strider]

how? why.....? how can u understand? i cant ...

There is no definitive proof to say there is a God. There's evidence, but no proof as yet. Just like somebody can read the evidence and conclude there is a God, others can read the same evidence and conclude there isn't a God.

[Karina]

There is no definitive proof to say there is a God. There's evidence, but no proof as yet. Just like somebody can read the evidence and conclude there is a God, others can read the same evidence and conclude there isn't a God.

Does this not make you Agnostic then????

[deen_2007]

Does this not make you Agnostic then????

thats what i was thinking :eek: ...but i think we r interprting her wrong

[strider]

Does this not make you Agnostic then????

No, because i was speaking generally. I didn't say i wasn't sure of the existance of God, rather that i can understand why somebody wouldn't accept His existance.

[deen_2007]

There is no definitive proof to say there is a God. There's evidence, but no proof as yet. Just like somebody can read the evidence and conclude there is a God, others can read the same evidence and conclude there isn't a God.

sister to me there is definate proof...you get proof from answering these questions...

how was humans created if there is no god?

how was animals created if there is no god?

how was the earth & other planets created if there is no god?

how was plants, rivers and many more created if their is no god?

everything above and many more i have not mentioned cannot be created by the wisest human on earth! no chemicals can create it! the latest technique cannot create anything near to it...so to me this is evident enough that god does exist...

[strider]

sister to me there is definate proof...you get proof from anwering these questions...

how was humans created if there is no god?

how was animals created if there is no god?

how was the earth & other planets created if there is no god?

how was plants, rivers and many more created if their is no god?

everything above and many more i have not mentioned cannot be created by the wisest human on earth! no chemicals can create it! the latest technique cannot create anything near to it...so to me this is evident enough that god does exist...

Proof can't be refuted.

[Keltoi]

Having been an athiest before I found Christ I have some understanding of why many people are athiests. Some people pride themselves on thinking rationally and logically. Spirituality is considered a superstition by many athiests. It isn't that they have "hatred" for religion, for the most part, but they simply can't make that leap of faith that is required.

[Cyril]

Believers in a religion have something in common with atheists.
An atheist does not believe in christianity neither does a muslim.
An atheist does not believe in islam neither does a christian.

Isn't it a paradox that poeple believing in God do not believe in the God of the opposite religion?

[Keltoi]

Believers in a religion have something in common with atheists.
An atheist does not believe in christianity neither does a muslim.
An atheist does not believe in islam neither does a christian.

Isn't it a paradox that poeple believing in God do not believe in the God of the opposite religion?

I would like to think all three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam believe in the same God.

['Abd al-Baari]

Hey

Can i ask a question please, what are Athiest/Agnostic views on the creation of the universe?

Thanks in advance

P.S I hope you don't mind sis Deen_2007 for asking my question on your thread

[strider]

Everybody who believes in God believes in the same God as there is only one God. They may be differing in the traits they attribute to Him but in essence, there is only one God.

[Keltoi]

Hey

Can i ask a question please, what are Athiest/Agnostic views on the creation of the universe?

Thanks in advance

P.S I hope you don't mind sis Deen_2007 for asking my question on your thread

When I was an athiest I believed in the scientific theories put forth, or the most widely accepted, which is the "Big Bang" theory. The matter out of nothing situation.

[Muezzin]

Believing in God and believing the Big Bang theory are not mutually exclusive though. I'm not suggesting that you're saying otherwise, Keltoi, I'm just clarifying for others.

[Keltoi]

Believing in God and believing the Big Bang theory are not mutually exclusive though. I'm not suggesting that you're saying otherwise, Keltoi, I'm just clarifying for others.

I agree. Science and religion aren't mutually exclusive. The natural process of the Earth and the universe are God's creations. The process by which this creation occurred could easily be described by science as a "Big Bang".

[جوري]

Who says? Muslims believe in the one G-D of Moses, Jesus and Abraham and Mohammed (PBUT)...... I can't speak for the other religions. But G-D is always one whether it is to an agnostic, christian or a Muslim according to Islamic teachings.... G-D isn't Anthropomorphic, G-D isn't interchangeable, nor does he govern one group over another. He is G-D of all that is in heaven and on earth and everything in between.... whether you choose to believe or not.. that is your prerogative but is inconsequential to the believers and above all inconsequential to G-D.. in fact I can't think of anyone that would be affected at all by a belief or disbelief system except for oneself.

I am not reall sure what you mean by the G-D of other religions...... unless you are speaking of something tribal? All organized religions believe in the same one G-D --we practice differently. Muslims believe that Islam is the seal and final revelation from the same G-D of the previous revelations!

['Abd al-Baari]

When I was an athiest I believed in the scientific theories put forth, or the most widely accepted, which is the "Big Bang" theory. The matter out of nothing situation.

Thanks

[Cyril]

I would like to think all three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam believe in the same God.

I must have misread and misunderstood all the discussions between muslims and christians about a God who comprises a divine Jesus.

How about then with atheists and muslims not believing in the hindu Brahman?

Anyway, my point still remains unanswered, that wondering at an atheist not believing in God and at the same time not believing in somebody else's deity is quite a paradox.

[strider]

I must have misread and misunderstood all the discussions between muslims and christians about a God who comprises a divine Jesus.

How about then with atheists and muslims not believing in the hindu Brahman?

Anyway, my point still remains unanswered, that wondering at an atheist not believing in God and at the same time not believing in somebody else's deity is quite a paradox.

I think that should read: not believing in somebody else's interpretation of diety.

In such a case, why would it be a paradox?

[Pygoscelis]

I don't believe in Allah for the same reason you don't believe in Zeus or the Tooth Fairy.

[Pygoscelis]

Hey

Can i ask a question please, what are Athiest/Agnostic views on the creation of the universe?

There are no unified atheist/agnostic views. Atheism and Agnosticism are not organized systems of thought and belief like religions are. As an atheist my views may be extremely different than another atheist. There are no agreed tenets. There is no holy book. No agreed rituals. No agreed dogma. Nothing other than a lack of belief in Gods is universal amongst atheists.

For creation of the universe, different atheists will believe different things. Many will believe in the Big Bang etc. But many others like myself will simply admit they do not know. I also don't care to know, but that's just me.

[Skavau]

I have always wondered why some people may not believe in God when there is so much around you that proves that there has to be.

That is your assessment of existence. It is not mine.

So for those who claim to be a Athiest, i was wondering if you would share your belief to why you have chosen to believe so.

As not believing in a flying unicorn around Jupiter, Atheism is the default position in reference to the idea of 'God'. You take the default position on all other Gods, in that you don't believe in them - I just go one step further.

& also say why you may have left a certian religion (if u did)?

Never been religious.

(_( hope this thread is in the right topic area..and hope no 1 is offeneded )_)

Absolutely not, why would it?

[b]EDIT: Sorry for the double post, but the one above I messed up and I can't find a way to edit it.

[AbuAbdallah]

I would like to think all three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam believe in the same God.

This is not true because unlike Christianity, Islam does not mix the Creator with the created. Unlike Judaism, Islam believes that God is Perfect.

[strider]

This is not true because unlike Christianity, Islam does not mix the Creator with the created. Unlike Judaism, Islam believes that God is Perfect.

But does that mean followers of the faiths you just mentioned do not believe in the same God or is it just they don't view the same God in the same way?

[AbuAbdallah]

But does that mean followers of the faiths you just mentioned do not believe in the same God or is it just they don't view the same God in the same way?

Tough question. The God I know is perfect, while the God they know isn't. So I guess we don't believe in the same God.

[snakelegs]

But does that mean followers of the faiths you just mentioned do not believe in the same God or is it just they don't view the same God in the same way?

i think god is the same - whether one sees him as one or 9,004, an old man in the sky or a raven or completely non-existent, it doesn't change god.
but then, what do i know - i'm agnostic, after all!

[deen_2007]

Hey

Can i ask a question please, what are Athiest/Agnostic views on the creation of the universe?

Thanks in advance

P.S I hope you don't mind sis Deen_2007 for asking my question on your thread

ofcourse not....::D

wow...i didnt think this thread would grow to 3 pages...:okay:

[wilberhum]

Tough question. The God I know is perfect, while the God they know isn't. So I guess we don't believe in the same God.

That depends on "your" definition of perfect.

[root]

Tough question. The God I know is perfect, while the God they know isn't. So I guess we don't believe in the same God.

Is that your answer as to why you are an atheist?

[Idris]

Is that your answer as to why you are an atheist?

what?.Atheist? Anyways I think there is more to the answer then what the brother has siad...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i wish most aethiests would study islam from islamic strong sources and then judge if there is a God or not instead of studying christianity and then becoming an aethiest after that...

[wilberhum]

i wish most aethiests would study islam from islamic strong sources and then judge if there is a God or not instead of studying christianity and then becoming an aethiest after that...

Do you think most atheists are reformed Christians? :-\

[Pygoscelis]

i wish most aethiests would study islam from islamic strong sources and then judge if there is a God or not instead of studying christianity and then becoming an aethiest after that...

Well I certainly fall into that category. I studied and rejected Christianty long before I even heard of Islam. And my rejection of Christianity went hand in hand with my rejection of Gods and superstision in general.

But really, I doubt that if I'd been born and raised in muslim culture I'd have turned out a believer. In fact I suspect that given the lack of secularity in islamic culture I'd have strongly backlashed and turned out an aggressive atheist evangelist, like Dawkins. I think I owe my more laissez faire attitude about religion to my relatively secular upbringing.

[Trumble]

i wish most aethiests would study islam from islamic strong sources and then judge if there is a God or not instead of studying christianity and then becoming an aethiest after that...

I've studied both. It makes absolutely no difference.

[DAWUD_adnan]

list the differences between the two, trumble

[Karina]

list the differences between the two, trumble

Why do you feel you have to "test" him?

[Malaikah]

I've studied both. It makes absolutely no difference.

Maybe not to you, but you don't exactly epitomise the understanding of every human in this planet...

In other words, the problems Pygoscelis had with Christianity might very well not exist in Islam.

When I was an athiest I believed in the scientific theories put forth, or the most widely accepted, which is the "Big Bang" theory. The matter out of nothing situation.

The lamest thing is that the Big Bang isn't proof against God at all. I think it is sad the way so many people rely on it to show that there is no God, even physics book don't make such a conclusion!

[DAWUD_adnan]

big Bang?

When describing the creation of the "heavens and the earth," the Qur'an does not discount the theory of a "Big Bang" explosion at the start of it all. In fact, the Qur'an says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.

The Qur'an further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).

Expansion of Universe

The Qur'an also does not rule out the idea that the universe is continuing to expand. "The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47). There has been some historical debate among Muslim scholars about the precise meaning of this verse, since knowledge of the universe's expansion was only recently discovered.

Six Days?

The Qur'an states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). While on the surface this might seem similar to the account related in the Bible, there are some important distinctions.

The verses that mention "six days" use the Arabic word "youm" (day). This word appears several other times in the Qur'an, each denoting a different measurement of time. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. Therefore, Muslims interpret the description of a "six day" creation as six distinct periods or eons. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period.
And as anyone knows science has shown that the universe was in six different stages before it turned in to the beauty we see today.

After completing the Creation, the Qur'an describes that Allah "settled Himself upon the Throne" (57:4) to oversee His work. A distinct point is made to counter the Biblical idea of a day of rest: "We created the heavens and the earth adn all that is between them in six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us" (50:38).

Allah is never "done" with His work, because the process of creation is ongoing. Each new child who is born, every seed that sprouts into a sapling, every new species that appears on earth, is part of the ongoing process of Allah's creation. "He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then established Himself on the Throne. He knows what enters within the heart of the earth, and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven, and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wherever you may be. And Allah sees well all that you do" (57:4).

Life Came From Water

The Qur'an describes that Allah "made from water every living thing" (21:30).

Another verse describes how "Allah has created every animal from water. Of them are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs, and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills, for truly Allah has power over all things" (24:45). These verses support the scientific theory that life began in the Earth's oceans.

show me any other book which says something like this. you will not find it
there is not any religious book on earth that contains such details, all other religions fail. which is why this is the Word of Allah(One True God).
.Most Merciful to you eventhough you deny his existence, He lets you grow he feeds you He gave hearing, sight, smell, touch and intelligence and yet you dont use it.

if you see a camel's foot print in the dessert would you say that it came by itself? the answer is NO, then what about the universe and these verses of truth given to you?

you should know that what islam makes different from religions around the world is, that it is not just a religion but a way of life, natural life, thus muslims are in harmony with nature, like the earth as it moves around the sun and the moon as it orbits around th earth, you will see muslims ''orbiting'' the ka'ba, when muslims pray the bow down their heads like the heads of flowers etc, may Allah(The One and Only True God) save you and forgive you.
Ameen

[Pygoscelis]

The lamest thing is that the Big Bang isn't proof against God at all. I think it is sad the way so many people rely on it to show that there is no God, even physics book don't make such a conclusion!

I'm not aware of anybody using the Big Bang to attempt to disprove God. The only proof I need against the idea of a God is the lack of evidence for one. Theories of the universe don't come into the equation at all.

[Trumble]

Maybe not to you, but you don't exactly epitomise the understanding of every human in this planet...

Of course I don't, but I suspect

In other words, the problems Pygoscelis had with Christianity might very well not exist in Islam

is unlikely.

For some reason best known to himself DAWUD_adnan asked me to list the differences, but what is important here is the similarities. The biggest, indeed probably the only, significant issue to an atheist (as opposed, perhaps, to an agnostic) is common to both... the assumed existence of God. Anything else is just window dressing.

The lamest thing is that the Big Bang isn't proof against God at all. I think it is sad the way so many people rely on it to show that there is no God, even physics book don't make such a conclusion!

It is not the business of physics books to offer proofs of the existence or non-existence of God! The Big Bang, to my knowledge, isn't used in that way at all. What it may be used for is to demonstrate a possible, God-free, alternative to the creation of the universe although the argumenta are a lot more complex (and unconclusive) than that on both sides, of course.

[Joe98]

….why some people may not believe in God

……..when there is so much around you that proves that there has to be.

When people don’t understand something, they say it is the hand of the gods. This has been going on for thousands of years.

I have an example:
Presume the universe started at time 1 and now we are at time 10

At time 6 people said “god created everything”
At time 7 people said “god created everything but evolution started at time 4”
At time 8 people said “god created everything but evolution started at time 3”
At time 9 people said “god created everything but evolution started at time 2”

Eventually we will reach time 20 and everybody will agree evolution started at time 1.

[~ Sabr ~]

Bump...........any atheists on this forum? What are your views?

[Riana17]

Asalam
I dont know if I was ex Christian, I think I was more on ex Atheist

Okay if I was ex Atheist it is because I had many doubts about Christianity like worshipping saints etc

to summarize it is like I better be atheist than to worship an idol.

[Burninglight]

I believe in the BIG Bang and I am not an atheist. I believe God spoke it, and Bang it happened!
:statisfie

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

I became an atheist for a time largely because of my own self-hatred. My reasoning was that God could not have created me, because I thought that I was such a bad person. Therefore, God must not have existed.

[atheistbynature]

This is quite an old thread now but since i'm new...

I have never really been religious, and I haven't believed in god since I was about 9. I became interested in the religious debate through Richard Dawkin's (your favourite person I'm sure) book and I started looking into religions and doing a bit of debating online.

I find it interesting to listen to how sure most religious people are since I don't see any reason to believe it myself.

So the reasons I don't believe are:

• I is an unlikely claim
• It has at best weak evidence
• The claim of most religions that there is a loving, just god that tortures people for their beliefs is self contradictory

Please bear in mind that I am not 100% sure there is no god (call me agnostic if you want) and convincing me there is a god is a long way from convincing me that any specific religion is correct.

Thanks for reading. :)

[Who Am I?]

This is quite an old thread now but since i'm new...

I have never really been religious, and I haven't believed in god since I was about 9. I became interested in the religious debate through Richard Dawkin's (your favourite person I'm sure) book and I started looking into religions and doing a bit of debating online.

I find it interesting to listen to how sure most religious people are since I don't see any reason to believe it myself.

So the reasons I don't believe are:

• I is an unlikely claim
• It has at best weak evidence
• The claim of most religions that there is a loving, just god that tortures people for their beliefs is self contradictory

Please bear in mind that I am not 100% sure there is no god (call me agnostic if you want) and convincing me there is a god is a long way from convincing me that any specific religion is correct.

Thanks for reading. :)

Actually, I for one am very much interested to know why you don't think that there is a God. I have a friend of mine who is agnostic as well and we sometimes debate this topic. I used to be an atheist myself for a time.

If you don't want to talk about it here, we can do it through email.

[atheistbynature]

Actually, I for one am very much interested to know why you don't think that there is a God. I have a friend of mine who is agnostic as well and we sometimes debate this topic. I used to be an atheist myself for a time.

If you don't want to talk about it here, we can do it through email.

I didn't say I didn't want to talk about it, sorry if I wasn't clear.

My reasons are as I gave above really, I'm very open to debate if you disagree with any of my points. As I said I don't claim to know 100% there is no god, I just treat atheism (or agnosticism doesn't make a difference to me) as the default positions.

I would also like to know why you believe there is a god, specifically the one of Islam.

Thanks.

[Who Am I?]

I didn't say I didn't want to talk about it, sorry if I wasn't clear.

My reasons are as I gave above really, I'm very open to debate if you disagree with any of my points. As I said I don't claim to know 100% there is no god, I just treat atheism (or agnosticism doesn't make a difference to me) as the default positions.

I would also like to know why you believe there is a god, specifically the one of Islam.

Thanks.

I'll get back to this when I have more time, brother. I do want to discuss this, but my time is limited right now.

[Burninglight]

This is quite an old thread now but since i'm new...

I have never really been religious, and I haven't believed in god since I was about 9. I became interested in the religious debate through Richard Dawkin's (your favourite person I'm sure) book and I started looking into religions and doing a bit of debating online.

I find it interesting to listen to how sure most religious people are since I don't see any reason to believe it myself.

So the reasons I don't believe are:

• I is an unlikely claim
• It has at best weak evidence
• The claim of most religions that there is a loving, just god that tortures people for their beliefs is self contradictory

Please bear in mind that I am not 100% sure there is no god (call me agnostic if you want) and convincing me there is a god is a long way from convincing me that any specific religion is correct.

Thanks for reading. :)

If something exists now, something has had to have always existed

[atheistbynature]

If something exists now, something has had to have always existed

Thanks for the reply.

This is a weak argument for a deistic god (or infact just something eternal). I'm not convinced that this commonly made statement is justified, but even if it is, it would still leave me closer to atheism that believing in a personal god that can read my thoughts (let alone the Christian one).

Must be something eternal =/= Jesus is the son of god.

[Burninglight]

Thanks for the reply.

This is a weak argument for a deistic god (or infact just something eternal). I'm not convinced that this commonly made statement is justified, but even if it is, it would still leave me closer to atheism that believing in a personal god that can read my thoughts (let alone the Christian one).

Must be something eternal =/= Jesus is the son of god.

Well, the Bible says the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handy work. It states that all things are held together by the word of His power, It is interesting that scientist don't fully understand what holds all the atoms together that makes up matter. Christians believe that Jesus is the word that God spoke all into existence seen and unseen. That is why the Bible says all things were made by Him through Him and for Him.

It also states that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God Jn 1:1 The Bible also says the fool says in His heart there is NO God, and that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish, but to us, it is the power of God (His word) I believe all things are held together by the power of His word. There is only one God and he is real. Just between Christians, Jews and Muslims make up most of the worlds population and we tell you God is real and he is one. The Lord our God is one! If you want to know who he is, He is I AM that I AM!

[atheistbynature]

I'm sure you know you can't use the bible to justify the bible, so i'm going to ignore the bible quotes.

It is interesting that scientist don't fully understand what holds all the atoms together that makes up matter.

Scientists have a good and ever increasing knowledge of the attraction between atoms (via the electromagnetic force etc) but this is god of the gaps, most gaps throughout history have been filled (rainbows, diversity of life, disease) so I would suggest not resting on the remaining gaps they might disappear...

Christians, Jews and Muslims make up most of the worlds population and we tell you God is real and he is one

Truth is not decided by a vote. Religion is an appealing concept and transfers very effectively to the next generation of vulnerable minds.


As I said in my original post, weak arguments are not enough because you are saying that it is so certain that he exists, it is right to send people to hell that don't believe.

[CosmicPathos]

Scientists have a good and ever increasing knowledge of the attraction between atoms (via the electromagnetic force etc) but this is god of the gaps, most gaps throughout history have been filled (rainbows, diversity of life, disease) so I would suggest not resting on the remaining gaps they might disappear...

ohoo, hold your horses. Dont be so sure of yourself, much like how you dont understand how theists can be so sure.

Most importantly, you are confusing arguments. On one hand you are questioning if God exists or not, while at the same time you are throwing out the argument that God is Maniac for throwing ppl in Hellfire for disbelief. This argument assumes that God exists, while your first statements says you are not sure if God exists or not.

So are you confused about your position? What EXACTLY is your position?

Seems you have much to learn in logic, argumentation and criticism. This will be fun pawning you.

[Burninglight]

eltromagnetic force is used to describe atoms holding together, but it is still in theory. For the time being we have to admit that we do not possess any general theoretical basis for physics which can be regarded as its logical foundation. (Albert Einstein, 1940) Reality from only one substance existing, as Leibniz wrote;
'Reality cannot be found except in One single source, because of the interconnection of all things with one another'.
Given we all experience many minds and many material things, but always in one common Space, we are thus required to describe physical reality in terms of Space. We then find there is only one solution, a Wave Structure of Matter (WSM) where the electron is a spherical standing wave. Electomagnetic force is still being understood; BTW, Scientist cannot even figure out how a bee flies. Yes, they have theories, but the truth is for its size an weight and small wing structure it is an impossibility yet they fly.

Imo, You sound more like an atheist than agnostic trying to convince me there is no God. The logical foundation and the interconnection of all things with one another and reality that can be found in a single source is God's Word, but scientist will never admit that because it is not scientific enough. Did you know the universe is exspanding more and more it is actually growing as if it is not big enough?

I believe the exspanding universe is awesome. If it keeps expanding the Milky Way is going to be replaced with Snickers and Mars bars. Let tell something four scientist got together and decided to tell God they didn't need Him anymore. When they told God that, God said, "Why not?" They said, "Because everything you can do we can too. We can create life" God said, "Let me see you do that" The scientist grabed a hand full of dirt from the ground, and God stop them saying, "Hold on there. Get your own dirt"

Man can take a seed and make a dupilcate with the same composition and elements exactly. They can plant it with a natural seed. One will grow but the other won't!

God is awesome!

[Burninglight]

Seems you have much to learn in logic, argumentation and criticism. This will be fun pawning you.

Lol, atheist are pawned all the time!

[atheistbynature]

ohoo, hold your horses. Dont be so sure of yourself, much like how you dont understand how theists can be so sure.

Most importantly, you are confusing arguments. On one hand you are questioning if God exists or not, while at the same time you are throwing out the argument that God is Maniac for throwing ppl in Hellfire for disbelief. This argument assumes that God exists, while your first statements says you are not sure if God exists or not.

So are you confused about your position? What EXACTLY is your position?

Seems you have much to learn in logic, argumentation and criticism. This will be fun pawning you.

My position is that, whilst I can't prove god does not exist I adopt a default atheist/agnostic position until evidence comes along.

But I'm not that concerned about the existence of a general god or not, I am close to certain that specific religions are false and I find that fairly undeniable. As I have said this is because the major religions state 2 contradictory things:

• God is just and loving
• God tortures people based on there lack of belief in something which has at best insufficient evidence

This is not a personal attack on god so I don't have to assume his existence but a contradiction in holly books.

I think you are too confident in you pawning ability but...bring it on.

[atheistbynature]

eltromagnetic force is used to describe atoms holding together, but it is still in theory.

and etc.

I think you are just using the fallacy of throwing lots of arguments at me in order that by the time I've answered them you have a load more. These arguments are only enough to give you a hunch that a deist god exists not enough to justify a Christian god that thinks his existence is so obvious that he can justify sending people to hell for not believing.

Please provide this perfectly strong piece of evidence that your god exists.



thank you.

[CosmicPathos]

My position is that, whilst I can't prove god does not exist I adopt a default atheist/agnostic position until evidence comes along.

But I'm not that concerned about the existence of a general god or not, I am close to certain that specific religions are false and I find that fairly undeniable. As I have said this is because the major religions state 2 contradictory things:

• God is just and loving
• God tortures people based on there lack of belief in something which has at best insufficient evidence

This is not a personal attack on god so I don't have to assume his existence but a contradiction in holly books.

I think you are too confident in you pawning ability but...bring it on.

Dont know which God you've been worshipping, Islamic God is Just and Wrathful. So its not a contradiction.

Ooh hell yea, I am indeed self-confident. A good quality to have, you can burn in the flames of jealousy.

[Burninglight]

I think you are just using the fallacy of throwing lots of arguments at me in order that by the time I've answered them you have a load more. These arguments are only enough to give you a hunch that a deist god exists not enough to justify a Christian god that thinks his existence is so obvious that he can justify sending people to hell for not believing.

Please provide this perfectly strong piece of evidence that your god exists.

The Muslim God sends to hell for unbelief as well as the "Christian God." For your information, the Christian God is the God of Abraham who is the very same God of the Muslims; at least we both claim Him to be; so, you cannot count on Allah or gain favor by what you call the "Christian God" as if Muslims will side with you, pfft.

Agnostics and atheist are without excuse when they can look at the heavens and still not believe. Let me say it is written, "Without faith it is impossible to please God. One that comes to God must believe He is, and he is a reward of those that diligently seek Him." You have no faith in God so he is against you. You want proof? Even if someone came back from the dead to tell you, you wouldn't believe.

When it comes to the existence of God, I unite in belief with Muslims, because we have no doubt of God's existence. I didn't ask God to prove himself real, who am I to ask such as thing? I am made in the image of God and so are we all; we are fearfully and wonderfully made. You have eyes but see not. You have hears but hear not. You are lost in darkness awaiting the judgment of God, why don't you cry out to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob asking God's forgiveness for your foolish doubts and to help you see, or ask Him to give you sight and ears to hear the truth of God's existence?

I am not going to argue with you regarding the existence of God. I already know your view and need to know no more. You want proof. Faith is the substance of the things we hope for and evidence of what we do not see. Finally, because you can't see doesn't mean you are justified doubting that He the one true God exist. I know the sun rose today, not because I saw it rise. It is because I see everything because of it.

May you come to the knowledge of truth before it is forever too late.

[Burninglight]

Correctopinions? opinions yes, but correct???//?///??/? ;D

[atheistbynature]

Dont know which God you've been worshipping, Islamic God is Just and Wrathful. So its not a contradiction.Ooh hell yea, I am indeed self-confident. A good quality to have, you can burn in the flames of jealousy.

Obviously I have not been worshipping a god, else I'd be the only atheist to do so..It is a contradiction because it is not justified to torture people because of their belief's especially when the evidence is inadequate, unless you think it is, in which case we've found the source of our disagreement and I can't really argue with that.Self confidence is good when you are right and bad when you are wrong so make sure you know which one is the case.

[atheistbynature]

you cannot count on Allah or gain favor by what you call the "Christian God" as if Muslims will side with you, pfft.

I'm not expecting muslims to side with me, I think that would be a bit optimistic. I'm just specifying what you need to prove.

Agnostics and atheist are without excuse when they can look at the heavens and still not believe. Let me say it is written, "Without faith it is impossible to please God. One that comes to God must believe He is, and he is a reward of those that diligently seek Him." You have no faith in God so he is against you. You want proof? Even if someone came back from the dead to tell you, you wouldn't believe.

I fail to see how "the heavens" is proof of your or any personal god, this is still weak deistic arguments. No you are wrong someone coming back from the dead and telling me would be sufficient evidence, I currently don't currently have such evidence, I am completely open minded to the idea you are absolutely wrong.

When it comes to the existence of God, I unite in belief with Muslims, because we have no doubt of God's existence. I didn't ask God to prove himself real, who am I to ask such as thing? I am made in the image of God and so are we all; we are fearfully and wonderfully made. You have eyes but see not. You have hears but hear not. You are lost in darkness awaiting the judgment of God, why don't you cry out to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob asking God's forgiveness for your foolish doubts and to help you see, or ask Him to give you sight and ears to hear the truth of God's existence?

I am not going to argue with you regarding the existence of God. I already know your view and need to know no more. You want proof. Faith is the substance of the things we hope for and evidence of what we do not see. Finally, because you can't see doesn't mean you are justified doubting that He the one true God exist. I know the sun rose today, not because I saw it rise. It is because I see everything because of it.

I find the assertion that you have no doubt despite not having "proof" shocking. Faith is, as far as I can see, is not a good substitute for evidence it is just basically saying " I don't have the evidence but I'll believe it anyway".

Please note also that belief is not a choice so if I don't think it's true I can't just believe it without something to change my mind.

You know the sun rose because you've seen it rise before, or you know others that have seen it rise. If there was just light, then there would be no reason to believe there was a sun. It is evidence you are using.

[atheistbynature]

Correctopinions? opinions yes, but correct???//?///??/? ;D

Yes correct

[Burninglight]

Please note also that belief is not a choice so if I don't think it's true I can't just believe it without something to change my mind.

Okay, I accept that. If you cannot believe in God, Believe in the good works the prophet Jesus did; he healed the lame, gave sight to the blind rised the dead and healed everyone that came to Him. He fed 5,000 people with two fish and 5 loafs of bread and turned water to wine. Maybe God will show you something that will help you believe. I'll pray He does. Other than that, we really have nothing in common as far spiritual matters. People have shared testimonies with me that they didn't believe and made some kind of an impossible deal with God that work out to convince them. Maybe God would honor your request for proof. But I am sure as heck not going to waste time and argue with you about His existence.

[SeekingJoy]

Hello,

I thought I'd join your conversation. Consider that you -- muslims -- tell
or answer 100% truthfully to the questions here, then why shouldn't I tell
the truth. And anyways, I'm interested in this thread.

So telling you the truth, I was a Christian, I studied at a Christian primary
school. My parents are separated, my family on my mother's side Christian,
but the family on my father's side is muslim: but only my father, his wife and
their daughter and son.

I was seeking the truth, because I didn't think Christianity would have the
truth and that would be the straight way to God's paradise. I found the truth
in Islam. My family (father, his wife, their daughter, brother and me) were
muslims, practiced the religion, prayed at mosque, celebrated Eid, fasted in
Ramadhan and all that. Also, we've been to Malaysia for a year and a half.
I studied at an Islamic secondary school, we had about 15 religions subjects
out of 21. I learned to read the Quran, also, learned to write Arabic.

Before I got back to Europe, I was losing faith. I lost it totally a week before
I got home. Then I told my family and my friends that I'm not a muslim -- they
accepted that, except the muslims ones, I lost a lot of them, but I don't mind it.

After all that happened, I found out that there's no conscience, no suffering
whenever I commit sins that are forbidden in Islam and Christianity as well. I
wanted to make 100% pleasure to my body with no regard to my soul. I mean,
I do everything what I want to do, I live out, I get as much pleasure to my flesh
and blood body as I can.

Now I became a human that completely doesn't follow any religion of God, or
worship that's connected with his name: prophets, books and rules.
I regard the prophets as mythology persons. I regard the books as literature
miracles, and I regard the rules as they're nothing but 'barriers' to the believers.

I became a LaVey Satanist. Satanism looks what's good for me and my
self-realization. Satanism doesn't say I'm unworthy, and the best thing:
it doesn't promise heaven or hell.

I believe in science, rationality and logic. That's my story, in a nutshell. Many
other things also happened to make me decide to follow LaVey Satanism, but
those aren't important now.

If you have any question, then feel free to ask me,
SeekingJoy

[Ramadhan]

After all that happened, I found out that there's no conscience, no suffering
whenever I commit sins that are forbidden in Islam and Christianity as well. I
wanted to make 100% pleasure to my body with no regard to my soul. I mean,
I do everything what I want to do, I live out, I get as much pleasure to my flesh
and blood body as I can

Ah. You have chosen to worship your desires.

Nothing new.

I thought you offered something radical or something.

[Ramadhan]

I was seeking the truth, because I didn't think Christianity would have the
truth and that would be the straight way to God's paradise. I found the truth
in Islam. My family (father, his wife, their daughter, brother and me) were
muslims, practiced the religion, prayed at mosque, celebrated Eid, fasted in
Ramadhan and all that. Also, we've been to Malaysia for a year and a half.
I studied at an Islamic secondary school, we had about 15 religions subjects
out of 21. I learned to read the Quran, also, learned to write Arabic.

Your story becomes more and more fantastically implausible.
Let me take a moment to laugh if you allow me.

In this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...l-lucifer.html you made so many errors on basic Islamic facts, which is impossible for someone who claimed to have studied 15 Islamic subjects, read Qur'an, and wrote arabic.

Please spare us your ignorance.

Yawn.

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

I was atheist before I turned to Islam.

My reason was I just didn´t find God, didn´t understand His meaning in universe.

[SeekingJoy]

Your story becomes more and more fantastically implausible.
Let me take a moment to laugh if you allow me.

In this thread: <link> you made so many errors on basic Islamic facts, which is impossible for someone who claimed to have studied 15 Islamic subjects, read Qur'an, and wrote arabic.

Please spare us your ignorance.

Yawn.

Hahaha okay, and you say you muslims are tolerant. Well, not. :)

[Ramadhan]

you say you muslims are tolerant

1. Did I say to you muslims are tolerant?
I thought as a "rational" person, you always base everything on fact and evidence. Where's the evidence dude?
2. Even if we are tolerant, we certainly are not tolerant towards those who are not what they claimed they are.

[User29123]

I think some people just leave religion, because of this war and stuff and how religion is manipulated by the media..

[Pygoscelis]

I am atheist because I haven't been indoctrinated into a religious belief, and it is much harder to sell these myths to adults who were not indoctrinated as children by parents and culture. As the guy above said, I can't prove God(s) don't exist, no more than I can prove faeries and leprechauns don't exist, but that is no reason for me to believe they do. As for tolerance on this forum, that ship sailed long ago.

[Al-Mufarridun]

I am atheist because I haven't been indoctrinated into a religious belief, and it is much harder to sell these myths to adults who were not indoctrinated as children by parents and culture. As the guy above said, I can't prove God(s) don't exist, no more than I can prove faeries and leprechauns don't exist, but that is no reason for me to believe they do. As for tolerance on this forum, that ship sailed long ago.

you might be surprised to know but you are half way through the primary gate of Islam. In Tawhid, 'the doctrine of Oneness(of God)", the concept of monotheism in Islam, there is the Kalimah, 'the word (of Islamic monotheism)', it is the primary gate into Islam;

Laa ilaaha illa l-laah "There is no god, but Allah(the God)". As an Atheist, you believe in the first part Laa ilaaha "There is no god", if you truly are someone who is sincere and endowed with intelligence and a faculty of reason, I have absolutely no doubt that your intelligence and the universe around you would lead you to believe in the second part of the Kalimah, illa l-laah (but the God)".

I would sincerely advice you to take the time to truly study Islam, start by reading about Tawhid and Islamic monotheism. Read the Quran, and the biography of Muhammad(pbuh). You have nothing to lose. I pray that you reach through your reason and intelect, a day or a night, when you complete the Kalimah of Laa ilaaha illa l-laah, before your term in this transcient life ends.

I now leave you with this verse from the Qur'an;

Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of the night and the day, and the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allah has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every [kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use reason. (Baqarah v. 164)

Peace be with you,

[Scimitar]

Hahaha okay, and you say you muslims are tolerant. Well, not. :)

Please, let's not confuse tolerance for stupidity ok?

After following your posts, I too have noticed many inconsistencies with your claims of having studied Islam, and your current understanding of it.

let me give you an example of tolerance that is relevant here, to this situation.

I am here on this site, with you, and despite your rather exuberant claims of having studied islam, I find your understanding of it needs a lot of work. Even the basic understanding of it. So I suggest you go and recorrect that, before you make fundamental errors on this site again. Me giving you advice, is a part of my tolerance...

As for Muslims? Let me quote a friend of yours... Sir George Bernard Shaw "The best thing I have seen on this planet is the religion of Islam, the worst thing I have seen are people who follow it." Don't paint a religion bad because of the people mate... there are good apples and bad apples everywhere, even with your own flock.

Another guy, I forget his name said the following "When I knew Muslims, I didn't want to know Islam, but now that I know my Islam, I don't want to know those Muslims"...

... He must have kept bad company I guess.

I wish I could come to common terms with you, I really do... however, I see only one possible avenue for this to happen: You are an atheist, and claim "there is no God worthy of worship"

Well done, you just claimed half the shahada (declaration of faith)... time to get working on the "Except Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) is HIS messenger"

Scimi

[جوري]

I am atheist because I haven't been indoctrinated into a religious belief, and it is much harder to sell these myths to adults who were not indoctrinated as children by parents and culture. As the guy above said, I can't prove God(s) don't exist, no more than I can prove faeries and leprechauns don't exist, but that is no reason for me to believe they do. As for tolerance on this forum, that ship sailed long ago.

Oh you've been indoctrinated into something.. given that atheism is much a belief as anything else. You believe God doesn't exist, yet have not given a valid argument to why not nor an unassailable explanation to the phenomenons seemingly occurring on their 'own volition' in the physical world you find yourself in. As for leprechauns & fairies, well it is unfortunate that every dialogue existing between people of reason and atheists has to descend down to drivel as if an atheist can't reason beyond a school boy's silliness and antics..
Next time you question the tolerance on any forum, shift gears a little and think of what factor you contributed to that outcome.. you'd be surprised as how you yourself are being perceived by others...

best,

[Rhubarb Tart]

I am atheist because I haven't been indoctrinated into a religious belief, and it is much harder to sell these myths to adults who were not indoctrinated as children by parents and culture. As the guy above said, I can't prove God(s) don't exist, no more than I can prove faeries and leprechauns don't exist, but that is no reason for me to believe they do. As for tolerance on this forum, that ship sailed long ago.

Hey

I thought you left the forum? What has upset you?

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace

I became a LaVey Satanist. Satanism looks what's good for me and my
self-realization. Satanism doesn't say I'm unworthy, and the best thing:
it doesn't promise heaven or hell.

Is this Anton Lavey's faith you speak of?!

Okay, can you elaborate on the 'goods' you learnt from satanism, please.

I believe one of them is if someone hits you, you hit them back, revenge is incumbant.. if i'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

And so you mean being a muslim means we've forgot about self realization?! I seriously don't understand what you found appealing in regards to satanism by compromising a faith that taught you how to live. If forgiving someone, controlling anger, treating others how you would want to be treated, etc etc is us forgetting how we humans should be and not going out of bounds, by getting angry and killing someone or out of revenge them i'm sorry your wrong.

Let me tell you, since you dislike the concept of protecting one from sin,you want to free yourself, be absolutely free, this opens the door for you to do what so ever you like, including the injust. if you disagree, then your only agreeying with every religion that teaches about God Allmighty.

Just to inform you nor does Allaah SWT inform us that we are unworthy, or else all that we've been commanded to do would have not benefited each and every one of us alone.

[جوري]

Hey

I thought you left the forum? What has upset you?

:lol: I love your responses :p

[GuestFellow]

Hello,


After all that happened, I found out that there's no conscience, no suffering
whenever I commit sins that are forbidden in Islam and Christianity as well. I
wanted to make 100% pleasure to my body with no regard to my soul. I mean,
I do everything what I want to do, I live out, I get as much pleasure to my flesh
and blood body as I can.

Hi,

What do you mean by that?

[Ramadhan]

As for tolerance on this forum, that ship sailed long ago.

Not quite sure what you meant by this.

I don't know how this forum can be more tolerant. This forum certainly tolerate your presence here; you have been here for 6 six years, never given any infraction points (except a one time 10 point), no one deleted your posts (except when you engaged in personal bickering), and do not forget the fact that you are at the diagonally opposite beliefs to the muslims.

I just hope you do not mistake/confuse disagreements with intolerance?

[Pygoscelis]

Oh you've been indoctrinated into something.. given that atheism is much a belief as anything else. You believe God doesn't exist

I don't have any belief that a god, goddess, or gods exist, no. But that isn't a belief in the same way that you hold one. I'm perfectly open to the idea that a God COULD exist.... but like the faeries, leprechauns, ESP, ghosts, invisible space aliens amongst us, or any number of other things I have no reason to believe one (or more) does exist. When you express belief in something that is non-falsifiable, don't be surprised when others don't join you in your beliefs.

yet have not given a valid argument to why not nor an unassailable explanation to the phenomenons seemingly occurring on their 'own volition' in the physical world you find yourself in.

I don't have to. Unlike you muslims and christians I am perfectly ok with admitting that I don't know how everything came to be or how everything works. I do not feel compelled to create a god of the gaps, or any other filler explanation. Admitting what you don't know is the first step towards knowledge. I do enjoy how science uncovers these mysteries step by step and I am open to wherever that research takes us (but always realizing we don't know things 100%). Who knows, maybe someday we WILL have actual evidence to support that one of the above things exist.

As for leprechauns & fairies, well it is unfortunate that every dialogue existing between people of reason and atheists has to descend down to drivel

What comparison point would you prefer be used? We could refer to Zeus or Apollo, or maybe Hindu Gods (for a modern comparison) but in doing so we're losing most of the point because if we did believe in these we wouldn't be atheists. But ok, we'll put it this way. I have no more reason to believe Allah exists than you have to believe native american ancestor spirits exist.

you'd be surprised as how you yourself are being perceived by others...

No, I really wouldn't be at all surprised at how I and any other atheist is perceived on this forum. We had a thread here with one of your "brothers" calling for our deaths and others fine with that and upset about cartoons.

I thought you left the forum? What has upset you?

I did leave the forum, but came back when somebody here (who shall remain anonymous for fear of no doubt being ostracized) pointed me to the "why are atheists so upset at religion" thread and that no atheist responded to it while others put forth a bunch of misconceptions. This thread then also asked a question specifically to atheists so I posted the above. Funny thing is that after I posted it I perfectly predicted the responses to it. One guy saying "atheists are halfway to muslims" (heard that a dozen times, it is only true semantically), one lady defensively lashing out as usual, and one asking "why are you so upset" as if any atheist who posts about religion must be upset. I'm not, at all. My reaction to all of this is more of a face palm.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me on this board is that people keep asking questions to atheists, and then they either ignore or snap at the answers. If people don't wan't the answers, why do they keep asking the questions?

Have fun folks.

[Pygoscelis]

Believe in the good works the prophet Jesus did; he healed the lame, gave sight to the blind rised the dead and healed everyone that came to Him. He fed 5,000 people with two fish and 5 loafs of bread and turned water to wine.

Why should we believe any of that? Because others have believed it? Because it is written in a book? Why should we believe this book anymore than other folk stories and myths?

[Pygoscelis]

I became a LaVey Satanist. Satanism looks what's good for me and my
self-realization. Satanism doesn't say I'm unworthy, and the best thing:
it doesn't promise heaven or hell.

Neither does humanism, secular budhism, and a whole host of other worldviews. Why on earth would you fall into a cult like Lavey Satanism? Lavey and Crowley were both charletons.

[جوري]

I don't have any belief that a god, goddess, or gods exist, no. But that isn't a belief in the same way that you hold one. I'm perfectly open to the idea that a God COULD exist.... but like the faeries, leprechauns, ESP, ghosts, invisible space aliens amongst us, or any number of other things I have no reason to believe one (or more) does exist. When you express belief in something that is non-falsifiable, don't be surprised when others don't join you in your beliefs.

That's actually very applicable to you given that you're starting with a double negative. See above as I don't wish to repeat myself. Bull**** doesn't an argument make!

I don't have to. Unlike you muslims and christians I am perfectly ok with admitting that I don't know how everything came to be or how everything works. I do not feel compelled to create a god of the gaps, or any other filler explanation. Admitting what you don't know is the first step towards knowledge. I do enjoy how science uncovers these mysteries step by step and I am open to wherever that research takes us (but always realizing we don't know things 100%). Who knows, maybe someday we WILL have actual evidence to support that one of the above things exist.

Indeed and no one is forcing you to! You choose to be on Islamic board for over a half a decade and you choose to nullify your own words by coming back after that grand sendoff. Makes your character and personal convictions less credible as time goes by.
I have my doubts that you have the slightest clue as to how science actually works to hang on to it as a personal straw man and dispense it in such a clumsy manner whenever you feel strapped for a seasoned argument. I assure you peppering your post with the word science isn't going to cut it. Tell you what, when the time comes and they call you down to Stockholm to claim that Nobel can you have this conversation with a dash more bravado.

What comparison point would you prefer be used? We could refer to Zeus or Apollo, or maybe Hindu Gods (for a modern comparison) but in doing so we're losing most of the point because if we did believe in these we wouldn't be atheists. But ok, we'll put it this way. I have no more reason to believe Allah exists than you have to believe native american ancestor spirits exist.

There's no comparison point as you're starting off from an already silly platform. I don't know anyone with the desire to engage that level of puerility. If you really had any interest in intelligent conversation you could start off with God as light cone which is an acceptable theory in physics. But you're not interested in that and never have been for the over half decade you've been here. You're interested in descending down to word play where you can ensnare at best a pubertal teenager with some zeal.

No, I really wouldn't be at all surprised at how I and any other atheist is perceived on this forum. We had a thread here with one of your "brothers" calling for our deaths and others fine with that and upset about cartoons.

In what way would you like to be a brother?
and what in your personal opinion is worst-- calling for the death of someone or actually committing the act against entire nations as your own brethren do for sport?

I did leave the forum, but came back when somebody here (who shall remain anonymous for fear of no doubt being ostracized) pointed me to the "why are atheists so upset at religion" thread and that no atheist responded to it while others put forth a bunch of misconceptions. This thread then also asked a question specifically to atheists so I posted the above. Funny thing is that after I posted it I perfectly predicted the responses to it. One guy saying "atheists are halfway to muslims" (heard that a dozen times, it is only true semantically), one lady defensively lashing out as usual, and one asking "why are you so upset" as if any atheist who posts about religion must be upset. I'm not, at all. My reaction to all of this is more of a face palm.

We find you equally predictable and after over a half a decade whether or not your tinkled the two P you just did it wouldn't make a slight bit of a difference, as your belief or lack thereof is of any importance. Each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds. I doubt anyone with half a mind really gives a fig as to what you or any atheist believe. It is rather the desire of some to either spread da3wa or understand how the atheist mind works, but the atheist mind is really not at all complex in fact I'd say it exists somewhere at a third grade level and never outgrows it!

One thing that never ceases to amaze me on this board is that people keep asking questions to atheists, and then they either ignore or snap at the answers. If people don't wan't the answers, why do they keep asking the questions?

It never ceases to amuse me either, how many atheists spend quite a substantial sum of their otherwise meaningless pointless lives on religious forums..

Have fun folks.

& you please do try to enjoy that hiatus ..

best,

[جوري]

P.S. whatever happened to your bikini clad "Muslim" babe? Is that why we detect this underlying note of bitterness in your tone? woe is me? ^o)
I was actually rooting that the both of you would find one another and learn to walk aright.. guess not-- old habits die hard!..

best,

[Pygoscelis]

God as light cone which is an acceptable theory in physics.

This was buried in amongst the jungle of adhoms. Never heard of "God as light cone". I'll look it up sometime.

[Pygoscelis]

P.S. whatever happened to your bikini clad "Muslim" babe? Is that why we detect this underlying note of bitterness in your tone? woe is me? ^o)
I was actually rooting that the both of you would find one another and learn to walk aright.. guess not-- old habits die hard!..

best,

We're engaged actually, if you really must know. And she's introduced me to a whole different set of "muslims" who are not in any way represented on this board.

[جوري]

This was buried in amongst the jungle of adhoms. Never heard of "God as light cone". I'll look it up sometime.

Not sure which is more pitiable your gross misuse of 'adhoms' to something you've already admitted never hearing about. Or the fact that you're unable to hold an abstract thought without resorting to children's books for inspiration.

We're engaged actually, if you really must know. And she's introduced me to a whole different set of "muslims" who are not in any way represented on this board.

There's no shortage of innovators...Good luck with all of that!

best,

[Ramadhan]

I am perfectly ok with admitting that I don't know how everything came to be or how everything works

do you believe that our universe is created or not?

I am open to wherever that research takes us (but always realizing we don't know things 100%)

Most atheists I know thinks science explains everything.

[Aprender]

And she's introduced me to a whole different set of "muslims" who are not in any way represented on this board.

Hmm. And are those the liberal Muslims? Hence the quotation marks?

But I resent that last part of your statement there by saying the the "muslims" aren't represented on this board. Even when I was a "Christian", members here treated me with kindness and respect and if I made an offensive post or stepped out of line, I was corrected accordingly. My feelings weren't hurt by it even though there were some things that we all disagreed on initially. I never felt personally attacked by holding those views and having people call me out on the ones that they felt were total crap or baseless.

I'm just surprised that you feel this way. Especially given that I'm sure you haven't met every Muslim on this message board either...

[جوري]

Most atheists I know thinks science explains everything.

Yet don't know how to use it in a complete sentence or how it actually works to save their dear life..
The irony is almost painful if you think about it..

:w:

[MustafaMc]

I am perfectly ok with admitting that I don't know how everything came to be or how everything works. I do not feel compelled to create a god of the gaps, or any other filler explanation. Admitting what you don't know is the first step towards knowledge.

I also am not afraid to admit that I don't know everything, but Allah has willed that I have a pretty good understanding of genetics, molecular biology and statistics. I don't understand where the concept 'god of the gaps' comes from. Perhaps it is an attempt to discredit theists as only believing in God because there are apparent 'gaps' in ToE that have yet to be explained. I rather concern myself with things that are verifiable scientifically and from my perspective ToE is no less of a belief system than any other religion, including Satanism. I see evidence of a Creator in what I know of the intricate details of life systems and say 'Glory be to Allah', while you seem to say 'Bah, humbug!' The problem that I have with people adamantly adhering to ToE and denying the involvement of a Higher Power is that they thereby deny the possibility of that Higher Power communication with humans to convey a message for how we are supposed to live our lives. There is no scientifically verifiable evidence for Allah (as I noted on a thread I started) or for resureection from the dead, Judgment Day, Paradise or the Hellfire. These are matters of faith that perhaps may have once been a seed planted in my mind by others, but I believe that my faith is much more than a matter of deing indoctrinated or 'brainwashed' to believe a certain way. Perhaps also that seed of faith was never instilled in you and a seed of disdain for all things religious was planted instead. If that is the case, I wonder why you come here.

I do enjoy how science uncovers these mysteries step by step and I am open to wherever that research takes us (but always realizing we don't know things 100%).

I am a scientist and I too thoroughly enjoy learning and developing new things through science. I anxiously await how science can duplicate in a completely natural abiotic setting conditions whereby 1) a single strand of DNA with the bases adenine, cytosine, guanine and thymine can self generate from basic elements of C, H, O, N and P, 2) that strand of DNA can transcribe itself into mRNA, 3) 21 different amino acids can likewise spontaneously self generate at the same time and place from the basic elements of C, H, O, and N, 4) various amino acid-specific tRNA, each of 3 nucleic acid base pairs, recognize and bind to those afore mentioned amino acids and transport them to the mRNA, 5) the mRNA will bind with a sequence of specific counter-matching tRNA with a specific amino acid to assemble a specific chain of amino acids to generate a functional protein. However, science may actually do the reverse and generate a strand of DNA from self assembling proteins. The end result is that this scheme does not have an extremely low probability of occuring, it is statistically an impossibility for this to occur in the manner I described outside of a previously existing organism. Now I know that ToE does not touch on the source for the seminal 'Common Ancestor'; however, abiogenesis is an essential aspect of proving that Allah (swt) did not create the existant and extinct life forms and species according to His Will.

['Abd Al-Maajid]

"I am an atheist because I fail to see the impeccable world around me which could have never been a result of just 'evolution'." :X

[SFatima]

@ mustafamc, you must write a small book about what you know and how you understand the athiest argument, I would certainly recommend it since your posts are quite convincing MashAllah.

[MustafaMc]

Assalamu alaikum, Sister SFatima. Thank you for your kind comments. The knowledge and understanding that I have comes only from Allah (swt) and to Him belongs the praise and glory forever and ever. Different people see evidence of Allah (swt) in different things and for me it is in life itself and the various biological systems required. Even as a Christian today may read the Quran and walk away unimpressed, so also do atheists see the same biological systems and yet believe that life itself and the various species of life came about completely by chance. Even so, I believe that my reading of the Quran and seeing its Truth is akin to my scientific knowledge leading toward faith in my Creator which came about only by the Will of Allah. He had mercy on me to guide me to faith while others remain yet astray. I am an example of, "There but for the grace of God, so go I." How can I deal harshly with those who have not been shown the same mercy as I have been shown?

[Pygoscelis]

do you believe that our universe is created or not?

I don't pretend to know. Could be it was spawned by another universe in a multiverse. Could be it has always existed and has oscilated between big bangs and big crunches. Someday science may shed more light on this but at present we have only loose theories.

Most atheists I know thinks science explains everything.

I have never met such an atheist, and I know many. The beautiful thing about science is that it is always open to revision and new evidence and theories are adjusted. This is a stark conrast to "revelation". Science and "faith" really come from opposite approaches in seeking knowledge.

I rather concern myself with things that are verifiable scientifically and from my perspective ToE is no less of a belief system than any other religion

I would note that while evolution is our current best scientific theory with the most evidence, it is probably flawed and will probably be adjusted as science progresses, maybe even be replaced. I would also note that you don't have to push evolution to be an atheist.

[GuestFellow]

I would like to ask atheists how life started? I would like a detailed answer. If they don't know, then that's fine.

We're engaged actually, if you really must know. And she's introduced me to a whole different set of "muslims" who are not in any way represented on this board.

That was quick. O_o

EDIT: badly phrased question

[جوري]

EDIT: badly phrased question

Which came first the chicken or the egg and have them work that process out for you scientifically will do the trick...

:w:

[Pygoscelis]

I would like to ask atheists how life started? I would like a detailed answer. If they don't know, then that's fine.

I can't speak for al atheists, but for me no I am not certain. Abiogenesis and Evolution are the best current scientific theories I'm aware of.

That was quick. O_o

What can I say? lol She's an awesome woman and we're very much in love.

[Scimitar]

Have fun folks.

Is that a dog in hijaab in your avatar?

[CosmicPathos]

We're engaged actually, if you really must know. And she's introduced me to a whole different set of "muslims" who are not in any way represented on this board.

I am back.

I am surprised that living in Canada you never got to meet this new whole set of "muslims." I think I may know what you are talking about. I do not think we have given them the permission to identify with our religion. And we would not want them to be represented on this board anyways!

[Ramadhan]

I don't pretend to know.

But what is actually your belief?

Could be it was spawned by another universe in a multiverse

And do you think that this other universe in a multiverse is created or not?

Could be it has always existed and has oscilated between big bangs and big crunches.

Are you saying that our universe has always existed? ie. never had beginning and will never end?
Is this theory supported by science and logic?

Someday science may shed more light on this but at present we have only loose theories.

why only those loose theories?
are you sure there's not any other theories that may be more plausible?

I have never met such an atheist, and I know many. The beautiful thing about science is that it is always open to revision and new evidence and theories are adjusted. This is a stark conrast to "revelation". Science and "faith" really come from opposite approaches in seeking knowledge.

I agree with you that science is always open to revision, and in fact, I guarantee you that science will always subject to revision.
I also observe that most atheists I know swear by current science, although we all agree that science will always subject to revision.

[GuestFellow]

I can't speak for al atheists, but for me no I am not certain. Abiogenesis and Evolution are the best current scientific theories I'm aware of.

I'm aware of the theories but I would like you to explain it.

What can I say? lol She's an awesome woman and we're very much in love.

All the best!

[Pygoscelis]

Is that a dog in hijaab in your avatar?

No, that is my dog after his bath, taken about 7 years ago. I always thought his face looks like a cartoon character in the photo so I've used it as an avatar on many forums.

[CosmicPathos]

hows your Muslim fiance? have you deceived her by saying you are a Muslim?Or you were up straight about atheism?

[Ramadhan]

hows your Muslim fiance? have you deceived her by saying you are a Muslim?Or you were up straight about atheism?

I know plenty of women professing to be muslims who are going at it with ANY random guy. I don't think pygo needs to deceive anyone.

With that, let's keep the discussion within the topic.

[Pygoscelis]

You people bring up my fiance out of nowhere, and then imply that she'll go at it with any random guy, and then you say change the topic? Really?

[CosmicPathos]

she must have been really really reallllly open minded that we lot cant perceive the openness of her mind.

[Ramadhan]

You people bring up my fiance out of nowhere, and then imply that she'll go at it with any random guy, and then you say change the topic? Really?

Excuse me?

Where/when did I say that your fiancee will go at it with any random guy or even imply such thing?
I mentioned that "I know plenty of women", so unless you think I personally know your fiancee, this phrase/statement does not include your fiancee. Sometimes I worry about your comprehension.
So fear not, I have no judgement whatsoever towards your fiancee.

By the way, can you please answer my questions in post #108 if you don't mind?

[CosmicPathos]

can you tell me where do you derive your morals from?

[Abz2000]

well at least the dog's well covered - no cause for concern there

[Pygoscelis]

why only those loose theories?
are you sure there's not any other theories that may be more plausible?

A lot of things are plausible. These theories have been drawn up by actual scientists relying on what little evidence we have though, and not arrived at by "devine revelation" and "faith", both of which are antithetical to science and reason. You probably don't like to hear that answer, but then you did ask the question.

I also observe that most atheists I know swear by current science, although we all agree that science will always subject to revision.

Current science is the best explanation we now have, supported by the most evidence we now have.

[Abz2000]

These theories have been drawn up by actual scientists relying on what little evidence we have though, and not arrived at by "devine revelation" and "faith", both of which are antithetical to science and reason. You probably don't like to hear that answer, but then you did ask the question.

Actually people come to faith through reason, when they come to the conclusion that there is no longer any denying the things they see pointing to the truth and no other possible way to explain it.
Do you think all the pagan Arabs came to Islam because of faith?
Or was it because they came to the conclusion that the signs the prophet pbuh came with could no longer be denied?
I would say they had no faith to start with but used reason, and saw that the blind hatred of their leaders towards the prophet pbuh who was calling them to the best of paths, was without reason.
And they were vindicated by the fact that in the same generation, this way of life had overcome the Arabian peninsula, the persian empire and the Byzantine empire, and continues to expand like wildfire every day.

If divine revelation gives the most plausible and resilient answer, it is UNscientific and UNreasonable to reject it just because you know you can't control people once they see God as above you. The fact is that most atheists see their tyrant leaders as the most powerful and worthy of obedience personalities scientifically fathomable - whose law is to be followed unconditionally despite all their lies, corruption and murderous wars.
Hence it is in their interest to ensure that people reject the notion of Almighty God despite all the signs staring them in the face.

Sean Stone, son of controversial director Oliver Stone, converted to Islam in Iran last week and says he’s already experiencing a Hollywood backlash. “I’ve already experienced the reverse of anti-Semitism, having people within the film industry express a reluctance to work with me now that I have said a simple prayer, ‘There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his messenger.’ I am sure I have [bleeped] off some powerful people.”

"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie.
It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent,
for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie,
and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the State."
-Chief Nazi 'Information Officer' Dr. Joseph P. Goebbels

Faith gives you the resolve to oppose them and die in the process of rectifying the status quo if necessary, that makes real men, that is reasonable.

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

Leave the dog alone.

That's all I have to say at this point.

OK, carry on with your regularly scheduled argument.

[Pygoscelis]

Where/when did I say that your fiancee will go at it with any random guy or even imply such thing?

He wrote:

hows your Muslim fiance? have you deceived her by saying you are a Muslim?Or you were up straight about atheism?

To which you replied:

I know plenty of women professing to be muslims who are going at it with ANY random guy. I don't think pygo needs to deceive anyone.

You really can't see the implication in that? It is either being implied that she is such a girl, or that I am deceptive.

By the way, can you please answer my questions in post #108 if you don't mind?

I answered your question above.

Now answer one of mine. Do you endorse what CosmicPathos said in the other thread, that he wishes death on all atheists (yes he did write that) and especially on those who criticize Islam? Since he's here in this thread, he can probably state it again for you. If you don't endorse it, then will you publicly agree with me that such death wishes are reprehensible? Will you further agree with me that the actions of your fellow admins and board members joking and making light of this while complaining about cartoons of all things were equally reprehensible?

Or is there truly a muslim tribalism so strong that you are prevented from speaking against a "brother" around a non-muslim?

And yes, I still hold that hateful thread in my mind whenever I visit this forum and it colours my perception of it. Thankfully my fiance and her type of muslims are nothing like that. If not for them I may join in with Sam Harris and others in their views about Islam generally.

I'd like to hear your sincere take on this. Perhaps the decent muslims here were all asleep at the switch in that thread (except for the one, and only one, brave muslim fellow who did react decently).

Then I'll go away again and leave you people in peace.

[Pygoscelis]

well at least the dog's well covered - no cause for concern there

LOL Ok that made me laugh out loud ;D

[Ramadhan]

A lot of things are plausible. These theories have been drawn up by actual scientists relying on what little evidence we have though, and not arrived at by "devine revelation" and "faith", both of which are antithetical to science and reason. You probably don't like to hear that answer, but then you did ask the question.

I understand that theories to explain the cause of our existence have been drawn up by scientists, and I would believe in any of those theories if those theories are supported by evidence, but they are not.
Most atheists I know have belief in those theories which are supported by neither evidence nor logic.

Also, you have not answered these questions:

And do you think that this other universe in a multiverse is created or not?

Are you saying that our universe has always existed? ie. never had beginning and will never end?

And I agree with this:

Current science is the best explanation we now have, supported by the most evidence we now have

Only to the extent where the science are actually supported by evidence.
However, atheists extend their belief that current science also explains things of which there is no evidence.

[Ramadhan]

You really can't see the implication in that? It is either being implied that she is such a girl, or that I am deceptive.

Sorry, but you are over-imagining things, you see purple unicorns when there is none.
I did not say your fiancee go at it with any random men nor did I imply she did. I also did not call you deceptive, and nor did I imply you were.

I answered your question above.

Thank you, but you missed a couple of questions.

Do you endorse what CosmicPathos said in the other thread, that he wishes death on all atheists (yes he did write that) and especially on those who criticize Islam? Since he's here in this thread, he can probably state it again for you. If you don't endorse it, then will you publicly agree with me that such death wishes are reprehensible? Will you further agree with me that the actions of your fellow admins and board members joking and making light of this while complaining about cartoons of all things were equally reprehensible?

I will only discuss on topic, and I have tried to clean up this thread to bring back to on topic discussion only. If you are still not satisfied, please report any post you deem offensive or you may open a new thread asking questions.

[Ramadhan]

Another question for you:

Why is it that atheists never offer another possibility: that our universe and every existence is created?

[MustafaMc]

Leave the dog alone.

... and his fiance as both are irrelevant to this thread.

[MustafaMc]

I would note that while evolution is our current best scientific theory with the most evidence, it is probably flawed and will probably be adjusted as science progresses, maybe even be replaced. I would also note that you don't have to push evolution to be an atheist.

I would generally agree with this statement, but it is my opinion that 'ToE is a scientific theory' borders on what I would call 'vodoo science' - an oxymoron. Again, I believe that it is more scientifically sound to say, "I don't know how life began or how the various species of living organisms came into existence; however, there is scientific evidence for how changes within species have occurred in response to changes and differences in their environments that may indicate a mechanism by which some similar species may have evolved from a common ancestor." I am not sure that ToE is supported by significant scientific evidence or that it will ever be verifiable.

A lot of things are plausible. These theories have been drawn up by actual scientists relying on what little evidence we have though, and not arrived at by "devine revelation" and "faith", both of which are antithetical to science and reason. You probably don't like to hear that answer, but then you did ask the question.

I disagree with your statement that faith is antithetical (mutually incompatible) with science and reason. I have faith and yet I am open to learning whatever science offers to better understand our material world, but I don't believe that scientists should feel compelled to offer a theory for the origin of life and the various species of life. Rather than speculate on these matters, they should focus on what is subject to the scientific method. Science has no business in dealing with matters of the unseen which includes God, angels, demons, the soul, where we came from and where we are going. These are matters of faith and the only source of knowledge is 'Divine revelation' which atheists discredit straightaway.

Current science is the best explanation we now have, supported by the most evidence we now have.

... and why does it matter that science offers a half-baked theory instead of just saying, "I don't know, but maybe we will come to understand one day"?

[جوري]

can someone change the 2007 thread title from why are you 'a athiest' to an atheist..
jzk.. it is a pet peeve of mine..

:w:

[GuestFellow]

Salaam,

... and his fiance as both are irrelevant to this thread.

I actually like the dog.

Another question for you:

Why is it that atheists never offer another possibility: that our universe and every existence is created?

I just want to know if atheists believe it is possible for life to come from nothing. As Bluebell put it, which came first? The chicken or the egg....

[Pygoscelis]

I will only discuss on topic

So when somebody asks me if I'm deceptive towards my fiance, you feel it appropriate to interject and declare that some women are loose, but then you refuse to respond when specifically asked if you believe that wishing death on atheists is wrong. Not even a quick "ya that is wrong to wish death on people" before moving on and asking your questions, because that's off topic? Got it.

I'm curious how you can go on asking questions when you know your audience is wondering if you want them dead, but I'll answer you one more time.

And do you think that this other universe in a multiverse is created or not?

Are you saying that our universe has always existed? ie. never had beginning and will never end?

I already stated that I didn't pretend to know. It would be nice if we could all be so honest but I know that is too much to ask.

Why is it that atheists never offer another possibility: that our universe and every existence is created?

Actually I think that was a theory going around a few years ago on one of the atheist boards I visited then. One idea was that our universe was created in space alien's lab and is sitting in a jar on a shelf as a failed science experiement or a beta test before moving on. Another was that time and space looped around and that we will create the universe in the distant future on a sub-atomic level. The Matrix is yet another related idea, that reality as we know it is constructed by some sort of artificial intelligence. These are all fun stories, as are the creation myths of religions, but I see no reason to hold them as anything more than that.

I have faith and yet I am open to learning whatever science offers to better understand our material world

Even if the answers science takes us to conflicts with your religious beliefs?

Science has no business in dealing with matters of the unseen which includes God, angels, demons, the soul, where we came from and where we are going.

Science can address all of those things in so far as they make claims involving the physical and observable world. True, we could never use science to disprove the existence of a "higher power" on a "higher plane of existence" etc, but we CAN use science to address things like transubstantiation, the age of the earth, if a global flood took place when claimed, etc.

As for where we came from and where we are going, there is evidence of that around us that can be investigated. Consider Archeology, Astrology (which is really a window into history of the cosmos), Paleantology, carbon dating, Meteorology. We can form theories about what whiped out the dinosaurs. Was it an asteroid or was it bacteria or viruses (as some are now finding evidence for).

And yes, we can form theories as to how the human species came to be on earth. We can contrast it with evidence on neanderthals, and we can build a theory of evolution. Evolution is an interesting theory that if true would explain a lot of otherwise unconnected aspects of biology. It is falsifiable and has not yet been undone. Perhaps you will break new ground and become famous when you are the first to do so. If you do, then we'll have to find a better theory, test that, and move on.

As for science addressing Gods, Angels, Demons, etc, it can do so in so much as claims are made about how they interact with the physical and observable world. It is true that science will never disprove that some "higher being" could exist on some higher plane of existence we can't measure, but science CAN address specific claims such as transubtantiation, the age of the approximate age of the earth, etc.

[Pygoscelis]

I actually like the dog.

His name is Cody, and he loves everybody and everything. He doesn't judge and just wants to cuddle, run around and play or eat a cookie. I think we could all learn a lot from our dogs.

I just want to know if atheists believe it is possible for life to come from nothing. As Bluebell put it, which came first? The chicken or the egg....

Can life come from nothing? I don't know. Laurence Krauss thinks so. Lots of religions think so. I'm not really sure one way or the other.

[Pygoscelis]

At the end of the day the answer to "why are we atheists" is because we have no convinceing reason to be otherwise. It is the same reason as why we are not astrologists.

[Who Am I?]

can someone change the 2007 thread title from why are you 'a athiest' to an atheist..
jzk.. it is a pet peeve of mine..

:w:

Yeeeeeeeeeesss.... another Grammar Nazi. Join the Dark Side... ;D

His name is Cody, and he loves everybody and everything. He doesn't judge and just wants to cuddle, run around and play or eat a cookie. I think we could all learn a lot from our dogs.

This. The more I get to know some people, the more I love my dogs. That's all I have to say about that.

[CosmicPathos]

This. The more I get to know some people, the more I love my dogs. That's all I have to say about that.

why is that?

I've read somewhere that by looking at a dog and its behavior, you can judge the mentality of its owner. If the dog is angry and irritable, it very much means its owner is a miserable person. Is there any truth to that?

[Ramadhan]

I already stated that I didn't pretend to know. It would be nice if we could all be so honest but I know that is too much to ask.

But you believe that they are possible. I just want to know the why and the how you believe such things.
You seem to always chastise us people of faith and tell us that we do not use reason, and now you seem to also do the same thing with respect to the origin of everything.

Actually I think that was a theory going around a few years ago on one of the atheist boards I visited then. One idea was that our universe was created in space alien's lab and is sitting in a jar on a shelf as a failed science experiement or a beta test before moving on. Another was that time and space looped around and that we will create the universe in the distant future on a sub-atomic level. The Matrix is yet another related idea, that reality as we know it is constructed by some sort of artificial intelligence. These are all fun stories, as are the creation myths of religions, but I see no reason to hold them as anything more than that.

I agree with you that those stories are fantastic, and have no sound basis in logic and reasoning.

But I am intrigued that no atheist is willing to challenge the idea of One creator in Islam. Can you please explain to us what is wrong with the most basic, fundamental idea of One creator in Islam? and I am not talking about Islamic teachings, angels, etc, I am talking about the ACTUAL Islamic principle of tawheed (one godhood). Can you please point out the flaw (like I have pointed out at the flaws of your proposed theories with multiverses, eternal universe, universe in a lab jar, by asking questions about them etc).

Also, you missed this question:

Why is it that atheists never offer another possibility: that our universe and every existence is created?

I understand that many atheists have these wild fantasies like you wrote above about our universe in a lab jar, but you and I know those are childish fantasies that somehow strangely remain in the psyche of many atheists when they grow up.

[Pygoscelis]

But you believe that they are possible. I just want to know the why and the how you believe such things.
You seem to always chastise us people of faith and tell us that we do not use reason

Possible yes. Not "revealed truth".

But I am intrigued that no atheist is willing to challenge the idea of One creator in Islam. Can you please explain to us what is wrong with the most basic, fundamental idea of One creator in Islam?

You can answer that yourself:

those stories are fantastic, and have no sound basis in logic and reasoning.

Sure, it MAY be possible, but so may the other theories I noted, so may the creation myths of other incompatible religions and cultures.

Can you please point out the flaw (like I have pointed out at the flaws of your proposed theories with multiverses, eternal universe, universe in a lab jar, by asking questions about them etc).

You didn't point out any flaws. And if we design the theories to be not falsifiable (as is the "one creator in Islam"), you'll never be able to disprove them. Atheists see your beliefs exactly the same way you see these other theories. Now if on the other hand we start making specific material claims from these theories then we can falsify those claims, things like transubstantiation (does the cracker actually become flesh at any point?) or the age of the earth or if there was a global flood, etc.

I understand that many atheists have these wild fantasies like you wrote above about our universe in a lab jar, but you and I know those are childish fantasies that somehow strangely remain in the psyche of many atheists when they grow up.

Do you actually think these atheists hold to these fantasies in the same way that you hold to yours? The guy who invented the universe in a jar theory was a fiction writer, the guy who made the matrix movie was a movie producer. Both are just fun fantasy ideas. They don't hold these out as "revealed truths".

[Who Am I?]

why is that?

I've read somewhere that by looking at a dog and its behavior, you can judge the mentality of its owner. If the dog is angry and irritable, it very much means its owner is a miserable person. Is there any truth to that?

Well, let me put it to you this way. When I come home after a long day at work dealing with angry customers and co-workers who make questionable decisions, my dogs are always glad to see me. They greet me eagerly, wagging their tails and barking with delight. It makes me prefer their company sometimes to that of other people.

As for my dogs' personality, I must be doing OK there, because my dogs are big goofy puppies. They're not mean and they love attention from anyone.

[CosmicPathos]

^^ I was never a dog person, considering in general how Islam looks at them, so I have sort of "disgust" towards them. I feel awkward if a dog touches my clothes in elevator or something.

[CosmicPathos]

psychocelis: you have not presented a convincing evidence for atheism. You talk against murder and what not. I dont believe in your morality (or any morality) for the same reason you dont believe in my God. Both are unseen and both are unknowable.

[Ramadhan]

Brothers, please stay on topic.
I will have to delete any posts about dogs or fiancees if they come up next.

[CosmicPathos]

bro, you are being very uptight about this.

[MustafaMc]

Even if the answers science takes us to conflicts with your religious beliefs?

Yes, for one thing religious texts including the Quran use metaphors, parables and alegory that may be lost when taken literally. For example, to say that the universe was created in six days (24-hour periods) is clearly an allegory. I have been to the Grand Canyon and seen the layers in the canyon walls that surely were laid down over a very extended period of time. I think of ayat 3:7 He it is Who has sent down to you the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental; they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

As for where we came from and where we are going, there is evidence of that around us that can be investigated. Consider Archeology, Astrology (which is really a window into history of the cosmos), Paleantology, carbon dating, Meteorology. We can form theories about what whiped out the dinosaurs. Was it an asteroid or was it bacteria or viruses (as some are now finding evidence for).

No, there is no verifiable evidence for where we came from and there is no way to verify if there is life after death or if we merely cease to exist. Yes, those are examples of science except for 'astrology' which I think you meant to write astronomy. I think dinosaurs are cool. What if we could have a real 'Jurassic Park'? Pondering on what caused them to become extinct can be interesting in the same manner we can ponder on what caused the collapse of the Mayan civilization.

And yes, we can form theories as to how the human species came to be on earth. We can contrast it with evidence on neanderthals, and we can build a theory of evolution. Evolution is an interesting theory that if true would explain a lot of otherwise unconnected aspects of biology.

You are making a huge leap in going from Neanderthal Man supposedly evolving into modern man (which could be considered micro evolution) all the way ToE in toto which says all species of life evolved from a 'Common Ancestor', presumably unicellular and prokaryotic. If someone could present a logical scientifically sound theory that explains the origin of life and the species of life, I would certainly be interested in exploring it. It is interesting to me that I have the same disgust for ToE as you seem to have for all things religious.

science CAN address specific claims such as transubtantiation, the age of the approximate age of the earth, etc.

I agree that the Eucharist is not scientifically sound and it would be really gross if it was; however, metaphorically it has meaning for Christians. I agree that the universe was not created in 6 literal days as we know a 'day'.

[جوري]

both are unknowable.

I don't believe God is unknowable given we're all born in the state of fitrah.. in fact so show their studies..

[Ramadhan]

Possible yes. Not "revealed truth".

Can you please tell me why "revealed truth" is such an impossibility?

Sure, it MAY be possible, but so may the other theories I noted, so may the creation myths of other incompatible religions and cultures.

Can you please tell me why the truth according to Islam is such an impossibility?

You didn't point out any flaws. And if we design the theories to be not falsifiable (as is the "one creator in Islam"), you'll never be able to disprove them. Atheists see your beliefs exactly the same way you see these other theories. Now if on the other hand we start making specific material claims from these theories then we can falsify those claims, things like transubstantiation (does the cracker actually become flesh at any point?) or the age of the earth or if there was a global flood, etc.

There's specific materials claims in Islam, for example this:
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). (QS. 15:9)

Also, I did point to such flaws to your theories because you were not able to answer my next questions: what was the cause of the multiverses, etc etc.
Instead of saying "I Don't know", atheists have been creating many theories and are indulging themselves in these fantasies and thinking they might be true, which is an irony (to say the least) because the claim they reject outright in any theories which are not provable.

Do you actually think these atheists hold to these fantasies in the same way that you hold to yours? The guy who invented the universe in a jar theory was a fiction writer, the guy who made the matrix movie was a movie producer. Both are just fun fantasy ideas. They don't hold these out as "revealed truths".

Some atheists do believe in multiverses and eternal universe while rejecting outright that existence was created by supreme being outside of creation. You will also be surprised to know how many atheists believe in the truth of matrix and universe as a lab experiment.

Again, I am asking you:
why do you believe that "revealed truth" is an impossibility?

[CosmicPathos]

I don't believe God is unknowable given we're all born in the state of fitrah.. in fact so show their studies..

unknowable for those with sealed hearts.

since I have to reply back to psygocelis in his own language, had to say that.

[جوري]

unknowable for those with sealed hearts.

since I have to reply back to psygocelis in his own language, had to say that.

It is their privilege to turn away from what's right in front of their eyes by the truck load.. I personally wouldn't humor it..

[Ramadhan]

This is what I asked:

Can you please explain to us what is wrong with the most basic, fundamental idea of One creator in Islam? and I am not talking about Islamic teachings, angels, etc, I am talking about the ACTUAL Islamic principle of tawheed (one godhood).

And you did not really reply.
I did not ask you to prove or disprove material evidence of Godhood according to Islam.
I asked you to tell me where is the flaw in the principle of Godhood according to Islam.

[MustafaMc]

At the end of the day the answer to "why are we atheists" is because we have no convinceing reason to be otherwise.

Strange but this brought to mind was a quote from the Executive Summary of the 9/11 Commision Report, "The most important failure was one of imagination. We do not believe leaders understood the gravity of the threat." It seems that atheists start with the supposition that 'God does not exist' and thereby eliminate the possibility of a Creator being responsible for all that exists. I see a painting of a Victorian house on my wall as an analogy for the universe. I see the intimate detail in the painting and I know that a very talented man spent hours, days and perhaps weeks creating this painting. In the same way I sit back in awe of the creation and I say, "Glory to Allah!" as I see evidence of the Creator. I believe it was Sister Bluebell who said something to the effect that the amazing thing about atheists is their apparent lack of awe that believers have when we see the the details and beauty of the creation.

[Pygoscelis]

It is interesting to me that I have the same disgust for ToE as you seem to have for all things religious.

I would also be disgusted by somebody, atheist or theist, who declared the theory of evolution as absolute revealed truth and not to be questioned or revised.

[Pygoscelis]

Also, I did point to such flaws to your theories because you were not able to answer my next questions: what was the cause of the multiverses, etc etc.

First, they are not my theories. Second, my not responding to your questions does not in anyway create or identify flaws in those theories.

You are having a serious disconnect here...

I wrote

Sure, it MAY be possible, but so may the other theories I noted, so may the creation myths of other incompatible religions and cultures.

And you quoted that and responded

Can you please tell me why the truth according to Islam is such an impossibility?

This seems to be a pointless conversation. Do you understand what you are responding to? Are you actually reading it?

[Pygoscelis]

It seems that atheists start with the supposition that 'God does not exist'

Actually, for most of us this is not the case. We still live mostly in cultures and families dominated by religion. Most of us are raised religious, fed these myths alongside other myths like Santa, and later see through them. And no, it isn't typically people befalling traumatic events or "rebelling against god" as you may imagine. I would recommend the book "Amazing Conversions" by Hunsberger and Altmer.

the amazing thing about atheists is their apparent lack of awe that believers have when we see the the details and beauty of the creation.

You imagine this. There is plenty of awe in the mind of atheists when they look at the cosmos. Neil Degrase Tyson (astronomer) wrote beautifully on this, as did Carl Sagan. I'd go read those before you start projecting on atheists. When you don't have a "God" to attribute everything to it becomes that much MORE beautiful, and yes, awesome.

[MustafaMc]

I would also be disgusted by somebody, atheist or theist, who declared the theory of evolution as absolute revealed truth and not to be questioned or revised.

I take the comment as referring to stories of creation not being questioned or revised by believers. I remind you that some things in the Quran are allegorical and no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah.

[Pygoscelis]

psychocelis: you have not presented a convincing evidence for atheism. You talk against murder and what not. I dont believe in your morality (or any morality) for the same reason you dont believe in my God. Both are unseen and both are unknowable.

CosmicPathology: It does not surprise me that you have no belief in morality.

[MustafaMc]

When you don't have a "God" to attribute everything to it becomes that much MORE beautiful, and yes, awesome.

How do you have a sense of awe with chance, randomness and inadequacy offered by ToE?

Lacking faith in God, I also assume you don't believe in the Hereafter. If so, what is the purpose and philosophy for your life? Is it "Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die (and cease to exist)"?

[CosmicPathos]

CosmicPathology: It does not surprise me that you have no belief in morality.

aah, nice play on words. Btw, pathology is a very important branch of health sciences. Glad to be referred by that.

Whose morality? Yours? Or of Kuru people from Papua Guinea who practiced cannibalism? Or of Hindus who used to burn widows? Or of Hitler?

[Ramadhan]

When you don't have a "God" to attribute everything to it becomes that much MORE beautiful, and yes, awesome.

And the beauty comes out of randomness and absolute nothingness by itself?

[CosmicPathos]

the world has progressed far away from that primitive level of physics that keep on repeating. Scientists now talk about quantum fluctuations.

[TrueStranger]

While primitive morality is on the rise.

[CosmicPathos]

Whose morality? Yours? Or of Kuru people from Papua Guinea who practiced cannibalism? Or of Hindus who used to burn widows? Or of Hitler?

[جوري]

I would also be disgusted by somebody, atheist or theist, who declared the theory of evolution as absolute revealed truth and not to be questioned or revised.

I think what irks folks around here the most about you, is how redundant you become and how little you read, for surely we've quoted you directly from the Quran and repeatedly,

Sahih International
I did not make them witness to the creation of the heavens and the earth or to the creation of themselves, and I would not have taken the misguiders as assistants.

It is in fact atheists who claim to know with an arrogant form of absolution and offer laughable improbable and non-provable theories to support their allegations on the origins of life and how we came to be. Theists claim no more than life is purposeful and created. We don't claim to know how the creator created.. so who here is justified in their disgust?

best,

[Ramadhan]

It is in fact atheists who claim to know with an arrogant form of absolution and offer laughable improbable and non-provable theories to support their allegations on the origins of life and how we came to be. Theists claim no more than life is purposeful and created. We don't claim to know how the creator created.. so who here is justified in their disgust?

Exactly!

Watch this youtube where these supposedly leading female scientists in America swear by evolution and some tried to peddle ToE as the absolute truth. Watch also how keep insisting that evolution is the basis of all life sciences. See how they don't even try to differentiate between genetics and evolution and spoke as if geentics depend on evolution.

[Pygoscelis]

Lacking faith in God, I also assume you don't believe in the Hereafter. If so, what is the purpose and philosophy for your life? Is it "Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die (and cease to exist)"?

The purpose of life is to give life purpose. Think about it. If this is the only life you get then it is that much more important and meaningful. If this isn't a waiting room for what comes next then it is that much more important to celebrate and enjoy this life, and to help others towards the same.

[Pygoscelis]

It is in fact atheists who claim to know with an arrogant form of absolution and offer laughable improbable and non-provable theories to support their allegations on the origins of life and how we came to be.

This is the most severe projection I have yet seen in this forum. I have yet to meet an atheist who claims any such thing with absolution. Had you bothered to read my answers above you'd realize that I don't either.

Theists claim no more than life is purposeful and created.

And here I thought you were a muslim.

[جوري]

and to help others towards the same.

How do you do that? By sharing in your childhood fantasies of unicorns and gnomes as a valid argument against the deep questions of why we're, the purpose of life and what it all means?

best,

[Ramadhan]

The purpose of life is to give life purpose

Is this your truth?
How did you arrive at this absolute truth of yours?

If this is the only life you get then it is that much more important and meaningful.

Not really. If everyone absolutely believe that this is absolutely the only life they have, I guarantee you that most will choose the "eat, drink, be merry" lifestyles.

If this isn't a waiting room for what comes next then it is that much more important to celebrate and enjoy this life, and to help others towards the same.

Exactly, if this were the only life they will ever have, everyone would choose to "enjoy" this life as much as they can. For example, if there's no jail and prison and consequences, I give you guarantee that people would do things they wouldn't normally do just because it's fun and has no consequences.

Also, could you please answer my previous questions?
Thanks.

[Pygoscelis]

Exactly!

Watch this youtube where these supposedly leading female scientists in America swear by evolution and some tried to peddle ToE as the absolute truth. Watch also how keep insisting that evolution is the basis of all life sciences. See how they don't even try to differentiate between genetics and evolution and spoke as if geentics depend on evolution.

Would it spin your head were it revealed to you that many of the women in this video are not atheists?

[Pygoscelis]

How do you do that? By sharing in your childhood fantasies of unicorns and gnomes as a valid argument against the deep questions of why we're, the purpose of life and what it all means?

best,

I don't need fantasies of unicorns and gnomes any more than I need fantasies of Gods to find purpose in my life. If you are not capable of finding purpose in your life aside from that you imagine coming from an imaginary friend, that really isn't my problem now is it?

[جوري]

This is the most severe projection I have yet seen in this forum. I have yet to meet an atheist who claims any such thing with absolution. Had you bothered to read my answers above you'd realize that I don't either.

Those are the only kinds of atheists we've ever met.. The majority of you don't sway so far off the bell curve!
Your posts are a redundancy that ricochets off the walls of the forum if you've read one you've read them all..

And here I thought you were a muslim.

I am indeed proudly Muslim but what you don't know could fill compendiums..

best,

[Pygoscelis]

Also, could you please answer my previous questions?

I don't really see the point in doing so. Won't you just ignore whatever I write and create your own answers to assign to me and other atheists as you've kept doing above?

[جوري]

I don't really see the point in doing so. Won't you just ignore whatever I write and create your own answers to assign to me and other atheists as you've kept doing above?

Why are you so upset with the conclusion the majority of folks here have drawn about your person and from your all too similar posts?
You've actually stated your conviction and on more than one occasion and besides that your utter almost militant disgust with religion. The only thing that mellowed you out a bit in recent times perhaps was your very base(ic) instinct toward a woman who is seemingly of this faith yet caters to your whimsey which further highlights that the universe really is built on seven themes and whether or not you try to set yourself outside the box you're still very much a slave to the human condition.
Give it up pygoscelis and get off that high horse of yours no one is buying into the charade!

best,

[Pygoscelis]

Give it up pygoscelis and get off that high horse of yours no one is buying into the charade!

If you are so closed minded and locked onto your own supplied answers to your questions for others then why do keep asking them? If anything atheists say that conflicts with your preconceived ideas is going to be declared a "charade" then why so dishonestly ask the questions in the first place? When most of us ask questions about the views of others we actually want to hear and learn the answers. You don't?

[جوري]

If you are so closed minded and locked onto your own supplied answers to your questions for others then why do keep asking them? If anything atheists say that conflicts with your preconceived ideas is going to be declared a "charade" then why so dishonestly ask the questions in the first place? When most of us ask questions about the views of others we actually want to hear and learn the answers. You don't?

I haven't in fact asked you anything pygoscelis, you'd be kind enough otherwise to point it out? You choose to be on an Islamic forum, you choose to partake in a thread almost five years old, and you choose to supply with the same retired rhetoric that we've come to expect from you and those you represent. I don't give a poop on a dung beetle's a$$ what atheists think, feel or believe. My motto has always been for better Muslims not more Muslims. Admittedly it is nice to return the treatment in kind to what many of us receive on dawkins.net and other atheist cesspools but the fact of your longevity here is very telling of how allowing, tolerant and open minded we're in comparison to those so self-professed.

best,

[CosmicPathos]

psygocelis: you have not answered my question about morality which you so pompously threw at me in the previous post. I am quite ignorant and genetically bereft of the blessing of "human morality" which you do have based on the superior genes!, educate me, whose morality do you want me to adopt?

[Pygoscelis]

So you participate in a thread entitled "why are you atheist" for the sole and exclusive reason to troll and make childish remarks towards atheists? And this makes you feel tolerant and open minded? Ok then. At least you are not wishing death on people like the other guy, though I wouldn't put it past you.

[CosmicPathos]

I wished death upon them no more than the death wishes of Sam Harris for religions (and with that religious people).
One of the four horsemen is already dead. Lets see when others fall!

[جوري]

So you participate in a thread entitled "why are you atheist" for the sole and exclusive reason to troll and make childish remarks towards atheists? And this makes you feel tolerant and open minded? Ok then. At least you are not wishing death on people like the other guy, though I wouldn't put it past you.

I do it because it is relaxing and virtually amusing Pygoscelis.. it is the natural order of the universe-- or are you a natualist only as suits your fancy?
The Question I have posed for you before though and would like an answer to is.
Do you think wishing death upon someone equates with actual physical killing and torture of someone?

best,

[Pygoscelis]

The Question I have posed for you before though and would like an answer to is.
Do you think wishing death upon someone equates with actual physical killing and torture of someone?

No.

And I've answered that before.

But wishing death on entire groups of people isn't something to be smiled on either. Its pretty sick in the head. As noted by the admin in that thread who laughed about categorically wishing death on atheists, had somebody here said they categorically wished death on muslims that'd get them banned, and rightly so. :skeleton:

[جوري]

No.

And I've answered that before.

But wishing death on entire groups of people isn't something to be smiled on either. Its pretty sick in the head. As noted by the admin in that thread who laughed about categorically wishing death on atheists, had somebody here said they categorically wished death on muslims that'd get them banned, and rightly so. :skeleton:

and what do you think we should do with all those bringing death upon Muslims not merely 'wishing it' on them?

[Pygoscelis]

and what do you think we should do with all those bringing death upon Muslims not merely 'wishing it' on them?

If you are refering to western heads of state and monsters like Bush and Cheney, I think they should be tried and prosecuted. I'm not too happy with Harper either on this front. If you are refering to muslims who kill other muslims over silly blood feuds and warlords in the wake of the political vacuums caused by the above, then ideally I'd like to see them prosecuted too if they don't kill each other first.

I'm curious why you only ask about those bringing death upon muslims. Do others not matter to you?

[جوري]

I'm curious why you only ask about those bringing death upon muslims. Do others not matter to you?

It is an Islamic forum and these are the current affairs of Muslims we're discussing. If I were on a Saskatchewan forum then the Saskatchewanian state of affairs would interest me.. You see a theme here? a cause and effect relationship? People gravitate toward their interests. I don't whittle myself on economics when Medicine is my sphere of expertise so quit pulling things out of a hat.. it is distracting and disrespectful!

best,

[Pygoscelis]

It is an Islamic forum and these are the current affairs of Muslims we're discussing.

Oh my bad. I must have misread the thread title. I thought we were discussing why people are atheists.

pulling things out of a hat.. it is distracting and disrespectful!

Indeed.

[جوري]

Oh my bad. I must have misread the thread title. I thought we were discussing why people are atheists.
.

You're on to something now.. enough about me let's talk about you, what do you think of me.. type thing..

best,

[Ramadhan]

I don't really see the point in doing so. Won't you just ignore whatever I write and create your own answers to assign to me and other atheists as you've kept doing above?

I answered all your questions related to the topic of discussions/thread, but I refuse to be dragged into off topic.

But it's okay if you are unable to answer my questions related to your faith, it just seems to me that atheists would welcome all sorts of scrutiny and questions regarding their belief. You are reminding me of this christian evangelist who kept refusing to give his answers everytime I asked him tough questions regarding his belief and faith.

I guess I was wrong, but I hope my questions were able to make you really think about your belief and faith.

[Pygoscelis]

But it's okay if you are unable to answer my questions related to your faith

I was so open to questions that I specifically came back to this forum (and was attacked for it) to answer some questions being asked. I went on to answer some questions by yourself, the answers of which you promptly ignored and invented your own to put in their place.

Go back and read what you asked, and what my responses were. You even directly quoted me saying something was possible (but I had no reason to adopt it) and then asked why I say it is so impossible. I called you on it. You ignored that and kept asking questions and inserting your own answers. Your compatriot here even then went on to openly admit she doesn't care what answers atheists give and that she's only here to troll. Given your refusal to read and address the answers given to your questions, instead of the answers you yourself assign, why should I see you as any different?

You don't need a real atheist like me for what you are doing here. You need only the imaginary one in your head, as that is who you are listening to anyway.

[Ramadhan]

Go back and read what you asked, and what my responses were. You even directly quoted me saying something was possible (but I had no reason to adopt it) and then asked why I say it is so impossible. I called you on it. You ignored that and kept asking questions and inserting your own answers. Your compatriot here even then went on to openly admit she doesn't care what answers atheists give and that she's only here to troll. Given your refusal to read and address the answers given to your questions, instead of the answers you yourself assign, why should I see you as any different?

Not sure where your answers were.
can you please point/link them to me?

Here's some of my questions that you never answered:

Is this your truth?
How did you arrive at this absolute truth of yours?

Can you please tell me why "revealed truth" is such an impossibility?

Can you please tell me why the truth according to Islam is such an impossibility?

etc
etc.

And if I have not answered any of your on topic question, please direct me to those, and I will answer them.

[MustafaMc]

I was so open to questions that I specifically came back to this forum ....
You don't need a real atheist like me for what you are doing here. You need only the imaginary one in your head, as that is who you are listening to anyway.

Pygoscelis, I grew up believing in both Santa Claus as bringer of gifts on Christmas eve and Jesus as the Son of God who sacrificed his life on the cross as the only acceptable means of reconciliation with God. I now believe in neither of these. However, I continue to believe in a Creator in no small part due to my detailed knowledge of genetics and molecular biology through which I strongly believe that life absolutely, irrefutably could not have arisen by chance. It is an impossibility to my mind that a seminal living Common Ancestor could have appeared by chance from inorganic elements or that this Common Ancestor, even if it existed, could have been the progenitor of all living and extinct species of life through a natural process without a Higher Power intimately directing and controlling the process. To me ToE is a pseudo-science that makes dramtatic leaps of faith to explain away the involvement of a Creator who believers know as God and Muslims know as Allah (swt). You call this a belief in a 'god of the gaps', but I see ToE and having much more inadequecy than gaps - it is an illogical hypothesis that is flimsily propped up by loose references to genetics, examples of intra-species changes in response to changes in the environment, and by a few fragments of fossilized bone. ToE is a hypothesis that has become accepted as a 'scientific theory' not by convincing scientific evidence to support it but rather by social pressure that it is the best available 'scientific' explanation for where we came from if one first presupposes that an unprovable entity, God, did not create us out of nothing.

My question is, "Why are you so unswervingly convinced that there is no God and that believers are deluding themselves into believing in a myth?"

[MustafaMc]

If this is the only life you get then it is that much more important and meaningful. If this isn't a waiting room for what comes next then it is that much more important to celebrate and enjoy this life, and to help others towards the same.

I see merit in this statement if one does not take 'enjoy this life' strictly in a materialistic and hedonistic way. It is most certainly consistent with Islam to 'help others towards the same' as charity is very important.

[MustafaMc]

The genus Pygoscelis ("rump-legged") contains three living species of penguins collectively known as "The Brush-Tailed Penguins".

Chinstrap Penguin - Pygoscelis antarctica
Attachment 4674

[Pygoscelis]

However, I continue to believe in a Creator in no small part due to my detailed knowledge of genetics and molecular biology through which I strongly believe that life absolutely, irrefutably could not have arisen by chance.

But by introducing a creator you only push that back one step. Instead of having a spontaneously created or always existing universe you have a spontaneously or always existing creator of it. Instead of having life form from amino acids which themselves came together I know not how, you've got a super being, often claimed to be magical, that assembled life on this planet and we're left to wonder what assembled it.

But more importantly do you stop at "a creator" or do you then go on to name this creator as a God, attribute specific attributes, demands, etc to him? The former I can see as rational. The latter I can not. Although I am atheist, meaning I lack any belief in God(s), I don't have any real isue with deism.

You call this a belief in a 'god of the gaps', but I see ToE and having much more inadequecy than gaps - it is an illogical hypothesis that is flimsily propped up by loose references to genetics, examples of intra-species changes in response to changes in the environment, and by a few fragments of fossilized bone.

The difference between ToE and the "god of the gaps" kind of theology is that the former is an attempt to bridge the gap with science and research, inquiry and testing and revision, however flawed it may be, and the latter is hand waving and an easy answer to anything we don't know, steeped in dogmatic resitence to revision.

"God of the gaps" shrinks remarkably over the ages as science progresses and we learn more about the world around us. We used to attribute the rain to the Gods. We used to attribute illness to the Gods. Now we know about weather patterns and viruses. "god of the gaps" will probably always be with us, at the limits of our understanding, because we as humans tend to not like admitting when we don't know the answers.

that it is the best available 'scientific' explanation for where we came from if one first presupposes that an unprovable entity, God, did not create us out of nothing.

I'm curious. Do you think it is that? If you assume for a moment that there is no God, would evolution be the best teory to explain life on earth to you? Or do you see other ideas that you think would be better?

Why are you so unswervingly convinced that there is no God and that believers are deluding themselves into believing in a myth?

I'm not unswervingly 100% certain. A deistic God is plausible, were there any evidence for one, but I see none besides "god of the gaps". I am about as certain that there is no God as I am that there is no ESP, ghosts, etc. I have no reason to believe that such things exist.

As for the particular gods claimed by varoius relgions (ie, Allah, Ganesh, Zeus) of those I'm more confident don't exist, as they all tend to conflict with one another, are traceable to isolated origins (people tend to believe the religions of their own cultures), and typically make bold claims (such as global floods, resurrections from the dead, talking snakes, etc) that look no more credible than the native folk story of "how the eagle got its wings".

If you want to know how atheists view Islam and why, you need only consider how you view religions you don't believe in and why. I think the reason I don't believe in Allah is the same reason you don't believe in Zeus.

[Pygoscelis]

I see merit in this statement if one does not take 'enjoy this life' strictly in a materialistic and hedonistic way. It is most certainly consistent with Islam to 'help others towards the same' as charity is very important.

Exactly. There is a lot to be gained through giving to charity. I think one of the most common myths in the minds of theists about atheists is that we are hedonists. Most of us are not. You can see that simply by looking around. Atheists are not out there raping and pillaging in large numbers, and they do indeed give to charity more than many theists would imagine. My favourite charities are MSF (doctors without borders) and Kiva.org. I do keep an eye out for secular over religious based charities, as I do not like the idea of people in need having religion pushed on them along with whatever aid they are getting. Seems like a mild form of brainwashing to me.

[Pygoscelis]

The genus Pygoscelis ("rump-legged") contains three living species of penguins collectively known as "The Brush-Tailed Penguins".

Chinstrap Penguin - Pygoscelis antarctica
Attachment 4674

Impressive! I think you are the first to accurately identify the origin of my name.

*waddles away*

[جوري]

The rest of us knew too we just didn't want to point out your physical shortcomings when you were so forthcoming about them :p
try some calisthenics

[Who Am I?]

:sl:

Eh, just don't do any Coca-Cola ads with polar bears and we're cool. :p

(Seriously, is anyone else as bothered by that as I am?)

[Pygoscelis]

:sl:

Eh, just don't do any Coca-Cola ads with polar bears and we're cool. :p

(Seriously, is anyone else as bothered by that as I am?)

Yes, it always kind of annoyed me a little. Penguins are from the south pole. Polar bears are from the north. The only place a penguin will meet a polar bear is at a zoo.

[Who Am I?]

Yes, it always kind of annoyed me a little. Penguins are from the south pole. Polar bears are from the north. The only place a penguin will meet a polar bear is at a zoo.

Yes, thank you. You get it. Some people don't understand why those ads annoy me.

[GuestFellow]

I like penguins. So cute. Are they halal to eat? O_o

Moving on, why are atheists considered to be agnostic by some people?

[Ramadhan]

There is a lot to be gained through giving to charity.

And There have been extensive and intensive studies and research done that shows religious people give a lot more than atheists.

So that refutes your claim.

[Ramadhan]

Pygo,

I'd like you to point out any flaw with Islamic concept of God. I am not talking christian concept or pagan etc. And I am not talking about purple unicorn either. Please be adult and take discussion seriously

[Ramadhan]

The rest of us knew too we just didn't want to point out your physical shortcomings when you were so forthcoming about them
try some calisthenics

That's the thing with atheists: if we don't splatter it all over their eyes/ears, it means it is neither exist nor known.
I also knew about his screen name. My university in Australia had regular research base in Antarctica, and I wanted to volunteer in one of their trips, so I had to learn a LOT about antarctica, including penguins.
My fave is always the emperors. They are the most amazing animals. Their resolve is beyond belief. Subhanallah.

[GuestFellow]

And There have been extensive and intensive studies and research done that shows religious people give a lot more than atheists.

So that refutes your claim.

There was one study where people that believe in God are less likely to commit suicide, mainly due to the fear of hellfire. But I'm not sure if this study was accurate since it was quite old, but it does contain an element of truth.

[Aprender]

There was one study where people that believe in God are less likely to commit suicide, mainly due to the fear of hellfire. But I'm not sure if this study was accurate since it was quite old, but it does contain an element of truth.

I remember hearing about that study in a sociology class in high school. Also said that people who followed some type of religion were generally happier people.

[Pygoscelis]

I like penguins. So cute. Are they halal to eat? O_o

Bite me! No wait! Don't! ;D

Moving on, why are atheists considered to be agnostic by some people?

Because they usually are.

Atheism = without theism = without belief in god

Agnostic = Without gnostic = without knowledge

The vast majority of atheists that I have met, in fact I think every single one I have met, is also agnostic, meaning they both lack belief in God(s) and that they will tell you they don't claim to know (at least not for sure). Many theists are also agnostic, meaning that they do believe in God(s), but also admit they don't know. Other theists, like many of you here, do claim that they know. They are not agnostic.

[Pygoscelis]

I remember hearing about that study in a sociology class in high school. Also said that people who followed some type of religion were generally happier people.

I know the studies you refer to, and it is true. My undergrad was in social and cognitive psychology and I read a lot and did some research on the social psychology of religion. There is some truth to the phrase "religion is the opiate of the masses". Especially interesting is that this effect only seems to have any effect within poorer communities and amongst the less educated. Recent research published in the journal of personality and social psychology found that there was a strong effect in subjects who did not have steady and reliable access to all of the necessities of life (the religious worrying about if they'd get a next meal were happier than the non-religious worrying about if they'd get their next meal) but in subjects who did have steady and reliable access to all of the necessities of life there was a weak reverse effect (the non-religious who felt safe and secure and had food were somewhat happier than the religious who felt safe and secure and had food).

I think the same phenomenon lays behind the famous phrase "There are no atheists in foxholes". Of course the phrase isn't actually true as stated, atheist soldiers do exist and they have been in foxholes and stayed atheists, but I don't think there is any doubt that desperate times will drive some atheists to theism. But all that really demonstrates is that desperate people will turn to the irrational. They also turn to psychics, superstiscion, and all sorts of other irrational things.

I've also read studies about theists and atheists in their charitable giving. It is true that theists "give more to charity". But when you look deeper, you'll find that "charity" includes things like building churches, missionary work, etc. "Religion" is still an official head of charity in Canada (to my embarrasment). There also still exist a large number of charities explicitly religiously motivated, driven, and named which are not pushing religion and actually are about doing real charity. The Salvation Army is a good example. But you may be surprised how many atheists give and work for these charities even though they don't agree with the religion named (usually Christianity).

In the particular case of muslims I would grant that it is explicitly part of your religion to give a percentage of your income to charity, which is something not explicit in other religions (they'll say something much more vague) and there is no universal code adhered to by atheists that would require such a thing either (though you may be surprised how many of us do give generously).

Given the cohesive nature of religion to its ingroup community (the outgroup is a whole other matter) I would actually expect religions to foster a lot of charity, aid, and good will towards its members. I'd expect it to foster a lot more than it actually has been shown to do in recent times. I think this may be because human populations have grown so fast and the group unit has grown so big and is no longer able to support an ingroup dynamic very well, hence all the splintering of religions into denominations and sects.

There was one study where people that believe in God are less likely to commit suicide, mainly due to the fear of hellfire. But I'm not sure if this study was accurate since it was quite old, but it does contain an element of truth.

The study related to this that I know of, because I was actually involved in it, showed that the moderately religious fear death the most, and the highly religious and not at all religious (atheists) fear it the least. This appears to be because there is uncertainty in the moderates, while the highly religious are all convinced they are bound for heaven and the atheists have literally nothing to fear (as they see death as literally nothing). There is a strong statistical trend that the more religious somebody is the more certain they are that they are going to heaven (or the GOOD side of the afterlife). Highly religious thinking they may be going to hell do exist but are far more rare according to the research, and strangely enough include a high percentage of children (still being indoctrinated I suppose) and women (no idea why) and almost never adult men.

For suicide, I think most religions have a "Suicide is a deadly sin" bit to them. Otherwise I'd have to wonder why these people don't hasten their journey to heaven. Some radical muslims seem to have found a way around this in wanting to be "martyrs" though.

[Pygoscelis]

I'd like you to point out

Perhaps if you asked engaging questions and actually read and thought about the answers and engaged in two sided conversation, as MustafaMC and TragicTypos have done thus far, rather than assigning answers to me and thrusting a position to defend upon me as you have done thus far, I may have reason to converse with you further. But for now I'm done with you, sorry.

[MustafaMc]

But by introducing a creator you only push that back one step. Instead of having a spontaneously created or always existing universe you have a spontaneously or always existing creator of it. Instead of having life form from amino acids which themselves came together I know not how, you've got a super being, often claimed to be magical, that assembled life on this planet and we're left to wonder what assembled it.

I don't have any qualms about an 'always existing creator' nor have I wondered 'what assembled it'. I don't really comprehend or understand how it can be, but I believe that Allah (swt) exists in a different dimension than we do. We are defined by the limits of our existence which are basically that of space and time. I exist within the confines of my physical body (space) and during my life (time) that began at my conception and will end with my death. However, as a Muslim I believe that my soul is not defined by those limits of space and time and that my body will be resurrected and reunited with my soul at some point after my death. My mind can't comprehend the size of the universe with "A galaxy 13.12 billion light-years from Earth is the most distant object yet detected, a new study says." http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...hest-universe/ Can your mind comprehend how far 13.12 billion light years is? Keep in mind that light travels at 186,000 miles per second! Well, I believe that Allah is not confined even within that unimaginable amount of space. The Big Bang Theory occured 13.7 billion years ago, which again I can't comprehend. Yet, I believe that Allah (swt) existed even before that in what can best be considered a different dimension.

But more importantly do you stop at "a creator" or do you then go on to name this creator as a God, attribute specific attributes, demands, etc to him? The former I can see as rational. The latter I can not. Although I am atheist, meaning I lack any belief in God(s), I don't have any real isue with deism.

I believe that Allah has attributes as revealed in the Quran and that he created us for a purpose and has provided direction for how we are to live our lives which includes worshiping Him in the manner He has revealed through various prophets, the last of which was Muhammad.

"God of the gaps" shrinks remarkably over the ages as science progresses and we learn more about the world around us. We used to attribute the rain to the Gods. We used to attribute illness to the Gods. Now we know about weather patterns and viruses. "god of the gaps" will probably always be with us, at the limits of our understanding, because we as humans tend to not like admitting when we don't know the answers.

I believe we will never be able to explain the totality of our existence outside of what has been willed for us to know. Science will never be able to prove that we completely cease to exist at our death and that we will not be resurrected. I know immensely more than your 'Average Joe' (as Allah has willed), but I am not afraid to admit what I do not know. As Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood) said on the movie 'Magnum Force', "Man's got to know his limitations."

I'm curious. Do you think it is that? If you assume for a moment that there is no God, would evolution be the best teory to explain life on earth to you? Or do you see other ideas that you think would be better?

No, I don't think ToE provides the best explanation for life on earth. My opinion is that the quote, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." by Abraham Lincoln. Silence on an unknown issue is immensely better than pure speculation and guessing.

I'm not unswervingly 100% certain. A deistic God is plausible, were there any evidence for one, but I see none besides "god of the gaps". I am about as certain that there is no God as I am that there is no ESP, ghosts, etc. I have no reason to believe that such things exist.

I am not so sure that paranormal experiences aren't real. I believe that jinn and angels exist and that they sometimes directly interact with our world while mostly we have no perception of their existence.

As for the particular gods claimed by varoius relgions (ie, Allah, Ganesh, Zeus) of those I'm more confident don't exist, as they all tend to conflict with one another, are traceable to isolated origins (people tend to believe the religions of their own cultures), and typically make bold claims (such as global floods, resurrections from the dead, talking snakes, etc) that look no more credible than the native folk story of "how the eagle got its wings".

You could be right that our belief system is a myth. We have a lot of beliefs that can't be proven beyond any doubt, else it wouldn't be faith would it?

If you want to know how atheists view Islam and why, you need only consider how you view religions you don't believe in and why. I think the reason I don't believe in Allah is the same reason you don't believe in Zeus.

... and the same reason I don't believe Jesus was both God and man. Can you imagine that there is another dimension beyond space and time and that we humans will be resurrected from the dead to face our Creator on Judgment Day? Can you imagine the possibility of a Paradise and a Hell? Well, I can imagine and in fact believe in the Islamic articles of faith which include these.

[Ramadhan]

Perhaps if you asked engaging questions and actually read and thought about the answers and engaged in two sided conversation, as MustafaMC and TragicTypos have done thus far, rather than assigning answers to me and thrusting a position to defend upon me as you have done thus far, I may have reason to converse with you further. But for now I'm done with you, sorry

Are they not questions?

Or maybe because my questions were in the same veins of atheists' usual "question" to us, asking us to prove that God exists?

Is that why you are mad?
Because we can play at your game too?

[Ramadhan]

Okay, fresh question to you:

Why do atheists equate the existence of the creator with that of purple unicorns?
Please enlighten me.

[Ramadhan]

More fresh question:

What is your actual objection to "revealed truth"?

[Ramadhan]

But by introducing a creator you only push that back one step. Instead of having a spontaneously created or always existing universe you have a spontaneously or always existing creator of it. Instead of having life form from amino acids which themselves came together I know not how, you've got a super being, often claimed to be magical, that assembled life on this planet and we're left to wonder what assembled it.

This universe is not always existing, because you and I exist, and because there is time.
If this universe has always existed, there would not have been 'time" because there won't be "then, now, and later"

No real honest scientist would ever say that this universe is always existing.

Also, our concept of God is not "spontaneous" as you called it.

You have been mixing up Islamic concept of god with that of christianity, pagan, etc.

[MustafaMc]

There is some truth to the phrase "religion is the opiate of the masses". Especially interesting is that this effect only seems to have any effect within poorer communities and amongst the less educated.

I agree that faith probably comes more frequently to the poor and down trodden, but there are examples to the contrary like Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) and myself.

There is a strong statistical trend that the more religious somebody is the more certain they are that they are going to heaven (or the GOOD side of the afterlife). Highly religious thinking they may be going to hell do exist but are far more rare according to the research, and strangely enough include a high percentage of children (still being indoctrinated I suppose) and women (no idea why) and almost never adult men.

I feel that I am a highly religious person, yet I don't have a conviction of certainity that I will not be going to Hell. I have hope in the Mercy of Allah, but I also have a fear of His Wrath. I don't place my faith in my performance of religious duties as ensuring my place in Paradise, but rather I see my own known imperfections and sins. In Islam the intention determines the merit of any deed and who among us can judge his own heart and inner most intentions. I trust in the promises that Allah made to believers in the Quran and I pray for His forgiveness.

[Ramadhan]

There is a strong statistical trend that the more religious somebody is the more certain they are that they are going to heaven (or the GOOD side of the afterlife). Highly religious thinking they may be going to hell do exist but are far more rare according to the research,

Can you please quote the sources for this research? Did the research have muslims as subjects, or were they limited to christians (who believe that once they believe in Jesus, then the will absolutely go to heaven)?

I'd like to know more, because as far as I know, and I know A LOT of muslims, the more practicing a muslim is and the higher their eeman is, the more fear they have that they will go to hell.

Also read stories on the prophet's sahaba (ra) and you would absolutely know that.

[CosmicPathos]

what about the research which showed that atheists are more likely to ask for euthanasia (actively physician assisted, not passive by taking off the ventilator and letting nature take its course) when it comes apparent to them that their disease is terminal, so they better escape the shackles in "peace" rather than in pain. Is that the extent of your bravery when it comes to dealing with suffering and pain? Is that your willingness to stand face-to-face in confrontation with evolution, which of course is trying to eliminate you out of the gene pool by giving you the disease, or you guys give up easily to the Darwinian forces?

In a Smith-Stoner (2007) survey of self-identified atheists found a clear and strong preference for physician-assisted suicide (PAS) and evidence-based medical interventions related to end-of-life care. Over 95% of participants supported PAS, as an important consideration in palliative care medicine (Smith-Stoner 2007). Clinicians were therefore recommended to proactively and directly address PAS and suicide issues with atheists related to suffering and end-of-life issues, as well as maintaining respect for client philosophical beliefs or non-beliefs (Smith-Stoner 2007).
Research has also found that atheistic or agnostic health care professionals are more likely to favor PAS or euthanasia than religiously affiliated health care professionals (Anderson and Caddell 1993; Baume et al. 1995).

Source: Lizardi D and Gearing RE. J Relig Health (2010) 49:377–384

the above review of research shows atheists' attitude towards end-of-life care and cant bear the excruciating pain that their own body gives you in the last moments, the very body whose lust they keep on trying to fulfill for most of your life.

[Pygoscelis]

I don't have any qualms about an 'always existing creator' nor have I wondered 'what assembled it'. I don't really comprehend or understand how it can be, but I believe that Allah (swt) exists in a different dimension than we do.

You believe it through faith. And since I lack that faith, or any reason to hold that faith, I'm sure you can understand why I don't come along with you on this belief. It may patch up some holes in your knowledge (the ultimate one of how things got started anyway) in a faith sense, but it doesn't explain our origins in any rational non-faith sense other than pushing the question back one step. How are we here is answered that God put us here and then the question becomes how is God here. Its ok that you are not interested in knowing that, but it is indeed the same question one degree removed. There is a famous story about this quandry being addressed to a native man. His belief was that the world was perched on the back of a giant turtle. Somebody asked him "What is the turtle perched on?" "Another Turtle" he answered. "And on That?" he was asked. "Its turtles all the way down" :)

Can your mind comprehend how far 13.12 billion light years is?

Its amazing isn't it? What astronomers and astrophysicists have been discovery is mind boggling. Dark matter and dark energy are even greater mysteries. I love following science :)

My opinion is that the quote, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." by Abraham Lincoln. Silence on an unknown issue is immensely better than pure speculation and guessing.

But isn't speculation how hypotheses are formed? We need to take what evidence we have and form theories so we can test them. Otherwise we can't really move forward.

I am not so sure that paranormal experiences aren't real.

I'm not either. But I have no reason to believe that they are real. So without good evidence of them, I don't have any belief in them. Same goes for Gods.

Can you imagine that there is another dimension beyond space and time and that we humans will be resurrected from the dead to face our Creator on Judgment Day? Can you imagine the possibility of a Paradise and a Hell?

I can imagine them sure. But I have no reason to believe they are any more real than other myths and stories.

[Pygoscelis]

I agree that faith probably comes more frequently to the poor and down trodden, but there are examples to the contrary like Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) and myself.

I'd also point out that most of the research I referenced had subject pools dominated by Christians. Muslims would have been a minority and therefore under represented in the results, so there may be some variation.

[CosmicPathos]

there should be a dislike button too.

[Pygoscelis]

what about the research which showed that atheists are more likely to ask for euthanasia (actively physician assisted, not passive by taking off the ventilator and letting nature take its course) when it comes apparent to them that their disease is terminal, so they better escape the shackles in "peace" rather than in pain. Is that the extent of your bravery when it comes to dealing with suffering and pain? Is that your willingness to stand face-to-face in confrontation with evolution, which of course is trying to eliminate you out of the gene pool by giving you the disease, or you guys give up easily to the Darwinian forces?

This actually would not surprise me at all. I'm open and bold enough to admit that I'd even be one of them. Call that weak if you like. If I'm sure to die shortly am not needed for some sort of emergency service or something and I'm in a ton of pain, then sure, I'll take the needle. Why would somebody want to "stand face-to face in confrontation with evolution" and what does that even mean?

In a Smith-Stoner (2007) survey of self-identified atheists found a clear and strong preference for physician-assisted suicide (PAS) and evidence-based medical interventions related to end-of-life care. Over 95% of participants supported PAS, as an important consideration in palliative care medicine (Smith-Stoner 2007). Clinicians were therefore recommended to proactively and directly address PAS and suicide issues with atheists related to suffering and end-of-life issues, as well as maintaining respect for client philosophical beliefs or non-beliefs (Smith-Stoner 2007). Research has also found that atheistic or agnostic health care professionals are more likely to favor PAS or euthanasia than religiously affiliated health care professionals (Anderson and Caddell 1993; Baume et al. 1995).

I only speak for myself and not for all atheists of course, but this sounds reasonable to me. I see no reason to prolong or amplify needless suffering if death is imminent and inevitable and the person wishes a quick and painless release. It should be the choice of the person involved.

the above review of research shows atheists' attitude towards end-of-life care and cant bear the excruciating pain that their own body gives you in the last moments, the very body whose lust they keep on trying to fulfill for most of your life.

Do you realize that what you write here is as bigoted and erroneous as somebody saying that "you muslims are terrorists who want to die for Allah by blowing up cafes"?

First, try not to generalize one atheist to all atheists.

Second, try not to make up your own ideas and attribute them to all atheists.

[Pygoscelis]

there should be a dislike button too.

LOL Sorry, there are only so many ways that you can hate me. Expressing your wish for my death is probably not going to be topped though by a "dislike" button.

Must say though, I do like you straight forward you are.

[CosmicPathos]

show

Do you realize that what you write here is as bigoted and erroneous as somebody saying that "you muslims are terrorists who want to die for Allah by blowing up cafes"?

so you are not a hedonist materialist by virtue of being a naturalist atheist?

[Pygoscelis]

Are they not questions?

Ok, one last time and then you'll be ignored.

You asked some questions. I answered them. You ignored my answers. You made up your own. You attributed those to me. You then painted a position for me to hold and asked me questions based on that position, which I never actually held, and then you whined about me not answering your questions.

Or maybe because my questions were in the same veins of atheists' usual "question" to us, asking us to prove that God exists?

I have never asked you to prove that God exists. I know you can't do that anymore than I could prove he doesn't.

Is that why you are mad?

I am not mad.

Because we can play at your game too?

You clearly are playing a game. It is not my game. I have no interest in such games. You and Bluebell can have fun making snide remarks and asking rhetorical questions (and giving your own answers), but don't expect me to indulge you further.

[Ramadhan]

You ignored my answers.

And I asked you again, where were those answers?
All you have to do is to link your answers.

You made up your own. You attributed those to me.

Again, where?
I am challenging you. Otherwise this is slander. Not sure if atheists believe slander is very important.

You then painted a position for me to hold and asked me questions based on that position, which I never actually held, and then you whined about me not answering your questions.

again, please point out those to me.

I have never asked you to prove that God exists. I know you can't do that anymore than I could prove he doesn't.

I did not say you asked me to prove God exists. I said :

Or maybe because my questions were in the same veins of atheists' usual "question" to us, asking us to prove that God exists?

You clearly are playing a game. It is not my game. I have no interest in such games. You and Bluebell can have fun making snide remarks and asking rhetorical questions (and giving your own answers), but don't expect me to indulge you further.

I am sorry, this preposterous. I have pointed out a lot of flaws in your arguments and rethoric and it seems instead of acknowledging that you were wrong, you are choosing to shy away from discussing my valid points such as here:

Can you please quote the sources for this research? Did the research have muslims as subjects, or were they limited to christians (who believe that once they believe in Jesus, then the will absolutely go to heaven)?

I'd like to know more, because as far as I know, and I know A LOT of muslims, the more practicing a muslim is and the higher their eeman is, the more fear they have that they will go to hell.

Or here:

And There have been extensive and intensive studies and research done that shows religious people give a lot more than atheists.

So that refutes your claim.

or here:

Why do atheists equate the existence of the creator with that of purple unicorns?
Please enlighten me.

or here:

This universe is not always existing, because you and I exist, and because there is time.
If this universe has always existed, there would not have been 'time" because there won't be "then, now, and later"

No real honest scientist would ever say that this universe is always existing.

Also, our concept of God is not "spontaneous" as you called it.

You have been mixing up Islamic concept of god with that of christianity, pagan, etc.

Ok, one last time and then you'll be ignored.

It's okay if you ignore me, but so you know, I will NOT ignore you. :)

[SorayaCali]

My mom and sister are atheists, they say they don't see any evidence for God and that's pretty much it. Nothing deeper for them.

[MustafaMc]

How are we here is answered that God put us here and then the question becomes how is God here. Its ok that you are not interested in knowing that, but it is indeed the same question one degree removed.

I have some knowledge of how I, as an individual, 'evolved' from the 1) union of an egg and a sperm 2) that developed into an amorphous blob 3) that gradually developed into an alien-looking form similar in appearance to so many other animal embryo 4) that developed into a well-proportioned human infant inside my mothers womb 5) that was born into a completely foreign 'external' world 6) that grew through the stages of infancy and childhood into adulthood 7) that likewise fathered a son to repeat the same process. The earliest memory that I have is probably wen I was 3 years old and was with my mom when she had a truck wreck. I have no comprehension of my life inside the womb, but surely I was there. While I was in the womb I surely had almost no perception of the exterior world and I would have had no reason to 'believe' that another dimension/world existed at all beside the womb. Well, I believe in a life in the Hereafter after our death on earth that can be likened to being born a second time into a life that we can't imagine.

It really blows my mind to think about the amazing development of each individual that could be an analogy for how we developed as a species. I see that our individual development was largely programed in the unique sets of chromosomes that initially came together inside the womb and I know that I did not develop through some random process by mere chance. Understanding the development that I illustrated is enough for me and I don't see the need to ponder over the development of the various species. I am quite OK with 'God did it'. Likewise, I don't see the need to ponder over the nature of God as I readily admit that His nature and existence is something my mind cannot fathom. It would surely drive me to insanity to try to comprehend the Incomprehendable.

Its amazing isn't it? What astronomers and astrophysicists have been discovery is mind boggling. Dark matter and dark energy are even greater mysteries. I love following science :)

I can tell that you have a fascination with astronomy and such as I do with genetics and molecular biology. :statisfie

But isn't speculation how hypotheses are formed? We need to take what evidence we have and form theories so we can test them. Otherwise we can't really move forward.

Yes, but my opinion is that, despite what you wrote earlier, ToE is no more falsifiable than the existence of God. I use the scientific method almost every day in setting up hypotheses, designing and running experiments to collect data, and draw conclusions from the data that either validates or refutes my hypothesis. If my hypothesis was wrong, then I design a second experiment and make another go at it.

I'm not either. But I have no reason to believe that they are real. So without good evidence of them, I don't have any belief in them. Same goes for Gods.

I can imagine them sure. But I have no reason to believe they are any more real than other myths and stories.

There is no hard evidence for much of what we believe except for what is written in the Quran that we accept on faith is a revelation from God. Belief in Heaven and Hell is fundamental to my being a Muslim. If I didn't believe in those, I seriously doubt that I would pray 5X a day, fast during a whole month, give as much charity as I do, or have made pilgrimage to Mecca. If I didn't believe, I would probably live as 'Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow I die.' There is no proof of the Hereafter, but woe to the one who disbelieves if there is and he did not do what he could to prepare for it. The ayat Quran 78:40 comes to mind Verily, We have warned you of a Penalty near, the Day when man will see (the deeds) which his hands have sent forth, and the Unbeliever will say, "Woe unto me! Would that I were (mere) dust!"

[Pygoscelis]

My mom and sister are atheists, they say they don't see any evidence for God and that's pretty much it. Nothing deeper for them.

That's why pretty much any atheist is an atheist. It is the reason I gave when I joined this thread as well, and one I keep repeating. That really is all there is to it.

It is the same reason most of us don't hold beliefs in ghosts, ESP, space aliens or time travelers invisible amongst us, faeries, etc. There doesn't have to be any "flaw" in any of these things for us to frantically point at. There's simply no reason for us to believe in them. Are they possible? Sure. Undectectable time travelers COULD be sitting next to you right now, reading this message over your shoulder. A lot of things we don't hold beliefs in are conceptually possible. Doesn't mean we should believe they are so.

[Ramadhan]

It is the same reason most of us don't hold beliefs in ghosts, ESP, space aliens or time travelers invisible amongst us, faeries, etc.

Can I ask you the reasons why you don't hold beliefs in ghosts, ESP, space aliens or time travelers invisible amongst us, faeries, etc?

[Pygoscelis]

I am quite OK with 'God did it'.

"God Did It" has been the standard answer through the ages for whatever lay at the limits of human understanding. I can see how it would be comfortable. People don't like uncertainty. But I don't like how it can impede some from looking for real answers. Had we been ok with "God did it" and not looked further we'd have no modern science. I'm not saying it impedes everybody, and one way around it may be to ask "Ok, if God did it, then how did God do it? What was his tool or mechanism?" and then you're looking for the same things I am. As a scientist I'm guessing this is what you do.

Yes, but my opinion is that, despite what you wrote earlier, ToE is no more falsifiable than the existence of God.

I am no expert on evolution, but I do know a few folks who are and who have listed things that would falsify evolution (ie, a rabbit fossil in the precambrian age). I have never heard a theist list things that would falsify the possible existence of God.

I would probably live as 'Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow I die.'

Maybe, but I doubt it. Most of us atheists are not hedonists.

This isn't you I'm thinking of, but some theists will occasionally tell me things like "Without God how can you have morals? If I was an atheist I'd be raping and killing", to which I do a double take and swiftly realize that religion IS needed by some people. But somebody who is truly this way would be a textbook sociopath (only being socially constructive because an authority (God) demands it). They lose sight of their own senses of empathy, compassion and community.

There is no proof of the Hereafter, but woe to the one who disbelieves if there is and he did not do what he could to prepare for it. The ayat Quran 78:40 comes to mind Verily, We have warned you of a Penalty near, the Day when man will see (the deeds) which his hands have sent forth, and the Unbeliever will say, "Woe unto me! Would that I were (mere) dust!"

Sounds like the Islamic version of Pascal's wager, which goes like this:

1. Either there is or there isn't a god

2. If there is a God and I fail to believe in him and worship him, etc, I will go to hell.

3. If there is no God and I believe and worship him, I lose nothing

4. Therefore it is the better bet to believe and worship.

There are a number of flaws with this, many of which I hope are obvious on the face of it. It presents a false dichotomy (what if you worship the WRONG God, as you statistically are almost certain to do and what if his punishment for worshiping false gods is more severe than for worshiping no Gods). It presumes we can decide what we believe (Can you believe you are an elephant?). It reduces theology to a game, which I would think would be offensive to the religious. It fails to account for rituals and beliefs that actually do more harm than good (You MAY lose something from worshiping, depending on the religion), etc.

[Ramadhan]

Also, Pygo, when you refer to "religion", it would help a lot if you can be more specific to Islam. Because most of your rejections and arguments against religions cannot really be applied to Islam.

This is "Islamic Board" and you have been a member for 6 years, and I think it would show good intention on your part if you show a little bit of understanding of basic Islamic principles.

[Ramadhan]

Sounds like the Islamic version of Pascal's wager, which goes like this:

1. Either there is or there isn't a god

2. If there is a God and I fail to believe in him and worship him, etc, I will go to hell.

3. If there is no God and I believe and worship him, I lose nothing

4. Therefore it is the better bet to believe and worship.

Islam does not base belief on God on Pacal's wager. In fact, in Al Qur'an there are countless verses that tell mankind to "ponder" "learn" "reflect" etc etc to arrive in conclusion in the belief in God.

that verse is nothing like pascal's wager.

[CosmicPathos]

I have no reason to believe in time travelers and fantasies because I would not have known about those things if I was not told about them since they are man-made concepts. On the contrary children know about a Creator without anyone telling them about Him. They perhaps might not know his name, but they know of a Creator.

Moreover, time travel and fairies go against the laws of physical universe, but a Creator does not go against the laws of universe and physical existence as He is not within universe. Its really childish when you create a false comparison. I'd expect more sophistication from an atheist.

[جوري]

Can you please quote the sources for this research?

There is alot of research that shows scientists and doctors are overwhelmingly believers in God as well. I personally think such studies are useless and meaningless. Whether for or against as they appeal to authority not logic, reason wisdom nor is science here used for good. (In general most folks don't know how to read scientific papers) includes an overwhelming number of scientists.
However there's little truth to what he says, not so much that those more educated are non-believers rather those with more wealth & power For both are the tools of Satan that he uses to blind his followers and both along with children are the lure of this world...I reference you to my thread 'when sheep are shepherded by wolves.' And I guarantee you if you read it and discern it, it will all fall into place for you...

:w:

[Ramadhan]

Also, Pygo, you offered that when people really believe that this life is all there is, they would appreciate life a lot more, then why is it that more atheists support euthanasia, higher tendency for suicide among atheists, and more support for abortion and babies killing among atheists?

[جوري]

Also, Pygo, you offered that when people really believe that this life is all there is, they would appreciate life a lot more, then why is it that more atheists support euthanasia, higher tendency for suicide among atheists, and more support for abortion and babies killing among atheists?

In fact people who don't comply with fitrah are the most miserable and have the highest rates of suicides they'll glamorize their lives and pretend to be happy that it is all normal.. when it isn't

e also: Homosexuality and psychology The likelihood of suicide attempts are increased in both gay males and lesbians, as well as bisexuals of both sexes when compared to their heterosexual counterparts.^[20][21][22] The trend of having a higher incident rate among females is no exception with lesbians or bisexual females and when compared with homosexual males, lesbians are more likely to attempt than gay or bisexual males.^[23]


http://people.ucalgary.ca/~ramsay/at...ll-studies.htm


Any path that leads you away from God will put a seal of rust upon your heart, blinders upon your eyes and plugs around your ears so that you're left to your own devices convincing yourself and arming yourself with the conviction of those of like minds that, that is the norm.

:w:

[SorayaCali]

CosmicPathos has PM'd me asking follow up questions to this thread. Unfortunately it seems I don't have the privileges yet to respond to PM's, so please do post questions to me on this thread :)

[Pygoscelis]

Moreover, time travel and fairies go against the laws of physical universe

Oh? How's that? I've seen people who believe in time travel, ghosts, ESP, and the like move goal posts and render their beliefs unfasifiable just as much as theists do. Cloaked space aliens amongst us and faeries can be just as unfalsifiable if presented that way as well.

We keep drifting from the subject of this thread though. The question is "Why are you an atheist" and the answer is becasue we've got no rational non-faith based reason to be otherwise. We are atheists becasue theism is not convincing to us. That really is all there is to it.

[جوري]

the answer is becasue we've got no rational

That resonates with me as truth! :D

best,

[Aprender]

Any path that leads you away from God will put a seal of rust upon your heart, blinders upon your eyes and plugs around your ears so that you're left to your own devices convincing yourself and arming yourself with the conviction of those of like minds that, that is the norm.

Yeah. And anyone that tells them otherwise is an intolerant bigot. =/ I went to an interfaith dialogue last semester about LGBT issues at the university and that was pretty much the scheme of things. People who didn't approve of the LGBT lifestyle were pretty much labeled dumb and intolerant. I actually got a little shocked when some of the gay and lesbian people in the group started comparing the bullying that they get in schools to what Muslims are subjected to in Western society...

[جوري]

Yeah. And anyone that tells them otherwise is an intolerant bigot. =/ I went to an interfaith dialogue last semester about LGBT issues at the university and that was pretty much the scheme of things. People who didn't approve of the LGBT lifestyle were pretty much labeled dumb and intolerant. I actually got a little shocked when some of the gay and lesbian people in the group started comparing the bullying that they get in schools to what Muslims are subjected to in Western society...

Where else but the west can piety and lewd sexual preferences be equal?
Anyhow it doesn't grieve me one way or another.. I don't care to waste resources treating a problem when there's a preventative cure..
They do this to their own souls and are in fact projecting their own psychology of intolerance for by their very narrow definition they accuse others of what they're guilty of.
Atheism is a broad term I have come to believe that compasses all that is malefic and Amoral if not frankly immoral..

:w:

[Pygoscelis]

The likelihood of suicide attempts are increased in both gay males and lesbians, as well as bisexuals of both sexes when compared to their heterosexual counterparts.

Wow really? I wonder if that has anything to do with living in a society and often in a family that lables them abominations, forbids them from marrying the ones they love, forbids them to adopt, and generally sneers at who they are. Note how most of the links connected to the one you posted are about bullying.

The It Gets Better campaign direclty addresses this. Once these kids grow up and get away from these parents and peers who hate them for who they are, if often does get better for them in later life. Not all homosexuals get bogged down with depression, etc. Many actually wind up as super happy, friendly and dare I say it, gay.

But we're getting off topic again :)

[Pygoscelis]

I actually got a little shocked when some of the gay and lesbian people in the group started comparing the bullying that they get in schools to what Muslims are subjected to in Western society...

I haven't seen any laws on the books yet purporting to forbid muslims from marrying those they love, or from adopting children, etc. It really depends where in western society we're talking about. Some places are tolerant of muslims and gays, some are tolerant of one and not the other, and some are bigotted against both.

I'd also point out that religion is far more a choice than sexual orientation is.

Actually given how much bigotry there is in the USA against muslims, I'd have thought they'd have sympathy for the homosexuals, blacks, atheists, and other groups who are also targets of such blind hatred.

[SorayaCali]

Yeah. And anyone that tells them otherwise is an intolerant bigot. =/ I went to an interfaith dialogue last semester about LGBT issues at the university and that was pretty much the scheme of things.

To be fair, my sister is a lesbian and she was tormented much of her school life. She was beaten up more than once. A fair amount of gay people don't exactly have it easy.

[Pygoscelis]

Atheism is a broad term I have come to believe that compasses all that is malefic and Amoral if not frankly immoral..

Are you aware that most homosexuals are theists?

[جوري]

Wow really? I wonder if that has anything to do with living in a society and often in a family that lables them abominations, forbids them from marrying the ones they love, forbids them to adopt, and generally sneers at who they are. Note how most of the links connected to the one you posted are about bullying.

Yeah really.. turn that wonder into reality and get back to me with whether their anal cancer has to do with society's 'hate' or their own actions are contributory... along with why they're so sad when they go home to their lovers and not society (and why that doesn't seem enough to quell their psychology) I am not big on speculations!

The It Gets Better campaign direclty addresses this. Once these kids grow up and get away from these parents and peers who hate them for who they are, if often does get better for them in later life. Not all homosexuals get bogged down with depression, etc. Many actually wind up as super happy, friendly and dare I say it, gay.

Your friend isn't what we're reading about, the exception isn't the law.. furthermore if what we've to go by are people who have gotten away from their family and amassed wealth and fame then it still wouldn't explain the high death and suicide rate amongst gay celebrities .. surely they're the most cultivated and have all of the devil's kingdom in Hollywood applauding them..

But we're getting off topic again :)

Not really.. now we're discussing the morality and tenets of atheism .. I think it is a subheading..

best,

[Ramadhan]

The discussion has veered off topic.
Please stay on topic.

[جوري]

To be fair, my sister is a lesbian and she was tormented much of her school life. She was beaten up more than once. A fair amount of gay people don't exactly have it easy.

How would others know that your sister is Lesbian?
I don't know anyone who wasn't bullied in school save maybe two or three popular girls.

Are you aware that most homosexuals are theists?

You can't subscribe to any organized religion and be gay..

best,

[Ramadhan]

Pygo, you said that the reason you don't believe in the existence of The creator of everything is the same reason you don't hold beliefs in ghosts, ESP, space aliens or time travelers invisible amongst us, faeries, etc.

So, could you please tell us exactly why you don't hold beliefs in ghosts, ESP, space aliens or time travelers invisible amongst us, faeries, etc.?

This would shed light into atheism for me (and I'm sure also to many of us).

Thank you.

[SorayaCali]

How would others know that your sister is Lesbian?
I don't know anyone who wasn't bullied in school save maybe two or three popular girls.

Well she was openly dating a woman in high school, and whenever asked, she doesn't hide her sexual orientation. She got abused and beaten for it more than once. Also slandered a lot by people. She had to move schools even once because they just wouldn't stop. So abuse of gay people does happen, even here in California.

[جوري]

Well she was openly dating a woman in high school, and whenever asked, she doesn't hide her sexual orientation. She got abused and beaten for it more than once. Also slandered a lot by people. She had to move schools even once because they just wouldn't stop. So abuse of gay people does happen, even here in California.

So you don't think that she was seeking positive reinforcement? Most people keep their private lives private and nurture not expose it. Hence you don't see heterosexual parades or people advertising their heterosexuality. I don't approve of bullying in any form for any reason but love is sacred and should be kept to ones personal life.

[Ramadhan]

We definitely have plenty of threads about homosexuality already.

I'm sure we all still have plenty of on topic to discuss with our resident atheist, mr. pygoscelis

[SorayaCali]

Hence you don't see heterosexual parades or people advertising their heterosexuality.

Well I think it's because no one is hurting and hunting down heterosexuals for being heterosexual. Persecuted groups tend to more closely identify with each other.

So you don't think that she was seeking positive reinforcement? Most people keep their private lives private and nurture not expose it.

No no I don't think so, as she's still in a relationship with the women, even if she's now in the military and overseas. When we lived in Argentina, which is a more friendly environment for gays, she was the same. I guess it's just who she is.

Anyhow, I hope I didn't anger anyone by continuing this topic.

[GuestFellow]

Bite me! No wait! Don't!;D

I need to find out if your halal first. O_o

The vast majority of atheists that I have met, in fact I think every single one I have met, is also agnostic, meaning they both lack belief in God(s) and that they will tell you they don't claim to know (at least not for sure). Many theists are also agnostic, meaning that they do believe in God(s), but also admit they don't know. Other theists, like many of you here, do claim that they know. They are not agnostic.

I think most people have doubts, even those who are hardcore atheists or theists. I do think there is a contradiction. People claim they believe in God or lack belief in God, but then are not entirely sure about it and are open to new ideas.

I've also read studies about theists and atheists in their charitable giving. It is true that theists "give more to charity". But when you look deeper, you'll find that "charity" includes things like building churches, missionary work, etc. "Religion" is still an official head of charity in Canada (to my embarrasment). There also still exist a large number of charities explicitly religiously motivated, driven, and named which are not pushing religion and actually are about doing real charity. The Salvation Army is a good example. But you may be surprised how many atheists give and work for these charities even though they don't agree with the religion named (usually Christianity).

Do you believe religious organisations should be exempt from tax? What do other atheists think of this? Of course, I'm not expecting you to speak for all atheists but you must have some idea of what other atheists think about the issue I've raised.

e also: Homosexuality and psychology The likelihood of suicide attempts are increased in both gay males and lesbians, as well as bisexuals of both sexes when compared to their heterosexual counterparts.^[20][21][22] The trend of having a higher incident rate among females is no exception with lesbians or bisexual females and when compared with homosexual males, lesbians are more likely to attempt than gay or bisexual males.

Salaam,

That is because gay people are treated quite harshly, especially in countries like Jamaica. Even people who are not practicing homosexuality but are gay, are ridiculed by society.

I have a relative who is gay and it is not easy. It is very hard, especially when people make fun of him. I think it is most difficult for gay men, who act feminine unintentionally, since they are expected to act masculine, as if acting feminine is demeaning.

For Muslims, I blame Islamic scholars and their culture. With some exceptions like Hamza Yusuf, most scholars I have listened to, have no idea how to address homosexuality. The rhetoric they use is the reason why some homosexuals are beaten up. They are clueless when addressing this issue, though some scholars in UK are becoming good at addressing homosexuality in a polite and diplomatic manner.

[جوري]

Well I think it's because no one is hurting and hunting down heterosexuals for being heterosexual. Persecuted groups tend to more closely identify with each other.

It is unusual for a group that seeks to foster its existence out of fear of threat & persecution to be so openly flashing it in everyone's face. I can't identify with that as a good survival skill..

No no I don't think so, as she's still in a relationship with the women, even if she's now in the military and overseas. When we lived in Argentina, which is a more friendly environment for gays, she was the same. I guess it's just who she is.

Interesting ...