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shible
03-07-2007, 01:11 PM
:sl:

MISUNDERSTANDING ABOUT ISLAM


James A. Bill (professor of government and director of the Reves Center for International Studies at the College of William and Mary in Virginia) writes - 'By the turn of the century, for the first time in history, the number of Muslims (those who practice Islam) will have surpassed the number of Christians in the world.


Islam is a monotheistic religion, civilization and way of life now practiced by 1.1 billion (i.e. 1,100,000,000.00) people. Easily the world's fastest growing religion, Islam is not confined to the Middle East. It is a truly universal force. More Muslims live in America today than all the Presbyterians and Episcopalians put together.


There are more than 1,200 mosques in the United States and 1000 mosques in England, where the Muslim community has established its own national parliament. There are more Muslims in Indonesia than in Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia put together. More live in Malaysia than in Jordan, Lebanon and Kuwait combined. Nearly 20 million Muslims live in China.


Wherever one looks, Islam is on the move. As the people of many societies find themselves rootless, disconnected and alienated, they increasingly seek help in a comforting Islamic ideological refuge. In a world of incoherent violence, widening inequities, political corruption and shattered families, many are massing behind the green flag of Islam. This is essentially a populist movement, a bubbling up from below, a march of the distressed, the dispossessed and the oppressed. ....


… Although the great bulk of Muslims seek to improve their status through quiet, moderate and pacific means, violent methods have been adopted by fringe groups—elements also present in Christianity and Judaism. Oblivious to their own profound ignorance and often harboring crude political motivations, many Western opinion leaders consistently label all Muslims with words such as 'aggressive', 'militant' and 'uncivilized'. Islam is the 'religion of the sword'; Muslim activists are 'terrorists,' and Muslims countries that challenge Western policies are 'outlaw states'.


Muslims themselves maintain quite a different worldview. It is in the deepest interest of the United States to attempt to understand this perspective. In brief, Muslims see themselves as the afflicted, not the afflictors; they feel themselves desperately on the defensive, not on the offensive; they consider themselves the objects of violence, not the initiators of violence. In sum, Muslims across the world consider themselves victims. In support of their position, Muslims will take their Christian and Jewish neighbors on a quick tour of the world. They inevitably begin with Bosnia, where nearly 200,000 Muslims have been slaughtered by Serbian Christians. Muslims are horrified and sickened by the fact that 22,000 Muslim women, aged 9 to 82, have been raped by Christian troopers. Muslims wonder privately about the weak and very late Western response.


In Kashmir, Indian occupying forces violently oppress Muslims, killing thousands of Kashmiris. Elsewhere in India in December 1992 and January 1993, violent Hindu mobs went on a rampage in Bombay, killing over 800 Muslims, destroying 5000 Muslim homes and forcing 200,000 Muslims to flee the city. Mosques were firebombed and mothers watched as their sons were pulled from their homes and slain or burned alive. In Tajikstan and other places in Central Asia, the Communists have made a comeback and, with the help of Russian troops, have attacked and killed more than 20,000 Muslims. Another 350,000 have been forced to flee. Even in China, Muslims find themselves under heavy military pressure. Chinese troops oppress Muslims in the western province of Xinjiang.


Even in many of the predominantly Muslim countries of the Middle East, Muslims find themselves under attack where the leadership is essentially secular. In Iraq, Saddam Hussein continues his war of genocide against the Shi'ites in the south.


In Algeria, when the Islamists scored a surprise victory in the December 1991 elections, the regime declared the election null and void. Since then, Algeria has been the scene of a bloody civil war. The government blames Islamic fundamentalists of striking terror in the very same areas where they had received majority of votes from. The governments explanation of fundamentalists unleashing waves of terror in their own strongholds, sounds very plausible indeed and casts shadows of dound over the credentials of the secular government instead.


In Egypt, Hosni Mubarak's regime, facing widespread disaffection of its people, pursues a policy of torture and execution of members of the Muslim opposition. In March 1993, his troops fired upon 500 unarmed Muslims at prayer in the Rahman Mosque in Aswan, killing nine and injuring 50. In the West Bank, another more widely publicized mosque massacre occurred a year later in Hebron when a Jewish settler killed 30 in a group of praying Muslims before the survivors could beat him to death. This litany of anti-Islamic violence is recognized and recited by Muslims everywhere. The situation is exacerbated when Muslims incredulously find themselves labeled as terrorists and when Western governments encourage their secular Middle Eastern allies to confront Muslim populist movements with brute force. One result of these Western perceptions and policies, of course, is that they begin to radicalize the huge mass of moderate Muslim believers. Meanwhile, the extremists on the fringes become more active and militant.


A vicious cycle of misunderstanding, misguided policy and increasing violence has been set in motion. Before this vicious cycle begins to spin wildly out of control, it is essential that non-Muslims make a major effort to slow it down. Such an effort will, as the very first step, require that stereotypes be discarded.


Second, recent history shows that the application of force is not always an effective way of countering a system of deeply held ideas and beliefs. The steady flame of resurgent Islam will not be extinguished by the breeze of bullets or the blast of missiles. A recently published report in Washington Post, confirms Islam to be the fastest growing religion in the United States despite hostile government policies and negative media stereotyping, only goes on to prove the truth of this statement. It is time for everyone to take a crash course on Islam. More recently, CNN too published a report, first of US kind ever done in this part of the World, titled as: Islam in US - Growing and maturing.'


:w:
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Keltoi
03-07-2007, 01:23 PM
This article is good at representing a particular world view, but doesn't really face the realities of the situation. I found it very disingenious that the article mentioned a terrorist act committed by a Jewish settler, but not the opposite side of the coin. Muslims aren't the only "victims" in the world and have in fact created as many victims as they have produced, IMO. Of course many Muslims are being victimized globally, just as many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and athiests are being victimized. This article devotes one sentence to the violent acts of Muslims, referring to them as "fringe groups". While I don't have a problem with that assumption, I think the article is a little less than honest about the complexity of the situation overall.
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Akil
03-07-2007, 08:37 PM
I agree with Keltoi, I also believe the article highlights the differences and needlessly heightens tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims and Muslim countries and non-Muslim countries.

Like I said before, lets focus on our similarities rather than our differences.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 08:55 PM
In Kashmir, Indian occupying forces violently oppress Muslims, killing thousands of Kashmiris.
Is one of the “one sided views”.
Muslim terrorists groups have killed thousands of Hindus.

No problem can be solved if you only present one side and ignore the other.
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iqbal_soofi
03-07-2007, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Is one of the “one sided views”.
Muslim terrorists groups have killed thousands of Hindus.
Terroists are terrorists. They're neither Hindus nor Muslims. They're terroists. However, there's a difference between terrorism and fight for freedom. When a larger country with greater military force occupies another country or state with military force, then the fight back is not terrorism. Kashmir issue is a political issue. India sent its military into it. When Kashmiri and Pakistani forces fought back and India felt the defeat, then it went to UNO to get a ceasefire on the promise to solve the issue politically throgh plebicite. It kept delaying the political dialogue untill it refused to talk on this issue by claiming Kashmir to be an integral part of India. This created anger in Kashmiris as well as in Paks. Kashmiris started their freedom struggle against India. Indian army is killing thousands of Kashmiris every year in Kashmir. Kashmiris have not given to the military power of India. They attack the Indian army as well as the soft civilian targets to counter the pressure on Indian army which always attacks the civilians in Kashmir. Hindus in India want their army to continue the occupation of Kashmir. They're not the victims, they're actually the victimisers who are involved in the forced occupation of Kashmir.

Originally Posted by wilberhum
No problem can be solved if you only present one side and ignore the other.
You're right that no problem can be solved if you only one side and ignore the other. The problem of Kashmir is not solved because Inidans always ignored the other side thinking that other party is much weaker. Kashmirs and Paks have always invited India to sit down on the table and discuss the problem so that a solution could be found. It's India which has always refused to disccuss this issue on table with Paks and Kashmiris.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 09:23 PM
As I said:
No problem can be solved if you only present one side and ignore the other.
What do I get for an answer:
The problem of Kashmir is not solved because Inidans always ignored the other side thinking that other party is much weaker.
I think you have made my point quite clear.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-07-2007, 09:29 PM
^^Theres actually a video on the Indian forces abusing the civilians there...but thats a totally different topic.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
^^Theres actually a video on the Indian forces abusing the civilians there...but thats a totally different topic.
I think it fits in quite well. I'm sure there are videos. I don't doubt that there are thousands of cases.

But that is not the only side of the story.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-07-2007, 09:35 PM
Yea, but for "me" I wont believe it 100% till I see it. Whatever it may be.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Yea, but for "me" I wont believe it 100% till I see it. Whatever it may be.
I find that a sad state of denial. There are always 2 sides to a story.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-07-2007, 09:41 PM
Its not sad. If I see pictures or if i see it on tv or videos, then i believe it. Not everything thats written on paper automatically makes it true. Of course itll be there, but people have the tendency to exaggerate. So no its not sad.
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iqbal_soofi
03-07-2007, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think it fits in quite well. I'm sure there are videos. I don't doubt that there are thousands of cases.

But that is not the only side of the story.
Of course there's other side side of the story. But to make the long story short, why not to put the two side of the same story on one table and end this ordeal. Innocent people from both sides are getting killed by refusing to reolve the issue politically. If Indians think that the story with which their leadership has convinced them, then they could ask their leadership to convince the opposite party. And if they think other party is not ready to listen to the facts, then they could make some third party (some international body) as a judge. Paks and Kashmiris have given them all kind of choices, but Indian leadership feels comfortable telling their side of story only to its own people. Why?
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Talha777
03-07-2007, 09:51 PM
Muslim terrorists groups have killed thousands of Hindus.
A LIE if I ever heard one. Muslims are resisting Indian army and killing Indian soldiers who invaded Kashmir and have been occupying it since 1947, killing, pillaging, raping, and displacing the Muslims. India is guilty of genocide against Muslims, and Muslims have every right to retaliate.

"Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." (5:45)
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 09:52 PM
iqbal_soofi
I like that. The Indians need to look at the problem so they can see that it is all there fault. :? What an open mind you have. :D
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iqbal_soofi
03-07-2007, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
iqbal_soofi
I like that. The Indians need to look at the problem so they can see that it is all there fault. :? What an open mind you have. :D
Where did I say that Hindus should see it as only their fault. If they think that fault is with the other side, then why do they hesitate to come to the table? The only reason to avoid a political dialogue is that they already know it's their fault. They know that they'd loose their case on the first hearing if they accept any third party as a judge. Muslim leadership won Pakistan from them not through terrorism. It won Pakistan on the table even when the judge (British viceroy) was with India. Only favor that judge could do (in return for the seat of governor general of India) that it gave some of the muslim majority districts (adjoining Kashmir) to India.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 10:12 PM
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ar/kashmir.htm

Kashmiri militant groups have committed serious abuses, including the deliberate targeting of Kashmir Hindus by fundamentalists, terrorist groups and foreign mercenaries. The persecution by Muslim extremists of the Hindu minority and the systematic religion-based extremism of terrorist elements has resulted in the exodus of 250,000 members of the Hindu and other minorities from the Kashmir Valley to other parts of India.
It is just as easy to blame Muslims as it is Hindus. In a conflict that has lasted over 60 years, both sides have to bare the responsibility of many atrocities.

It is nice to believe that “Your Group” is always right. “Your Group” never does any thing wrong. “Your Group” is always the victim. “Your Group” only fights for what is right. “Your Group” “Your Group” “Your Group”……..
That is just total denial.
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NoName55
03-07-2007, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777

A LIE if I ever heard one. Muslims are resisting Indian army and killing Indian soldiers who invaded Kashmir and have been occupying it since 1947, killing, pillaging, raping, and displacing the Muslims. India is guilty of genocide against Muslims, and Muslims have every right to retaliate.

"Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." (5:45)
:thumbs_up For once I agree with you. Those Kashmiris have nowhere to leave to, but resist the hindu .
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iqbal_soofi
03-07-2007, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
:thumbs_up For once I agree with you. Those Kashmiris have nowhere to leave to, but resist the hindu scum.
And Hindus are responsible for that. They're the one who don't want to solve the dispute peacefully. They want to impose their descision by force. Problem with Muslims is that they never accept anything by force.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777

A LIE if I ever heard one. Muslims are resisting Indian army and killing Indian soldiers who invaded Kashmir and have been occupying it since 1947, killing, pillaging, raping, and displacing the Muslims. India is guilty of genocide against Muslims, and Muslims have every right to retaliate.

"Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." (5:45)
Another Hate message by yours truly. Muslims have every right and Indians only kill, pillag, rape, and displace the Muslims. India is guilty of genocide so it is ok to kill all the Indians you want.

Does your hate never end?
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
And Hindus are responsible for that. They're the one who don't want to solve the dispute peacefully. They want to impose their descision by force. Problem with Muslims is that they never accept anything by force.
Just more "every thing is someone else's fault". It must be nice to belong to a group that never takes responsibility for anything bad.
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iqbal_soofi
03-07-2007, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Just more "every thing is someone else's fault". It must be nice to belong to a group that never takes responsibility for anything bad.
It's only the Hindus who think that way thats why they blame Muslims for everything. They call the Muslim freedom fighters as terrorists and call the Indian military as a victim who enterd into Kashmir and kills the Kashmiri Muslims in their homes.

You're repeating your blame on Muslims in each of your posts, but never answer my question regarding why Indian leadership avoids the political solution of Kashmir dispute. Why Hindus who believe in their side of the story don't ask their leadership to tell that story and win the case? The simple answer is that you know that's a fake story which could fool nobody but Hindus.

Pakistan's case on Kashmir is so strong that even a non-political leader (like Musharraf) could win it easily on the table even if the dialogue are held in India. This is an open challenge. Go ask your leadership to face the facts instead of listening to their blanket excuses.
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ACC
03-07-2007, 11:02 PM
There is definitely a lot of one sided finger pointing going on. It seems like certain actions are defended on this forum as long as they are perpetrated by a certain group. I dont think I have ever agreed as much with Agnostics and Atheists as I do here (:D ).
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 11:05 PM
It's only the Hindus who think that way thats why they blame Muslims for everything.
It is always good to see someone with an open mind. It's only the Hindus because all Muslims are good. Right?
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ACC
03-07-2007, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is always good to see someone with an open mind. It's only the Hindus because all Muslims are good. Right?
That is definitely the vibe I am getting here.
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iqbal_soofi
03-07-2007, 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is always good to see someone with an open mind. It's only the Hindus because all Muslims are good. Right?
All Muslims may not be good. But on the Kashmir issue they're right at least. If Hindus are right, then they should prove it. They've been invited on the table to prove the Muslims wrong on this issue many times. They never did.
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ACC
03-07-2007, 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
All Muslims may not be good. But on the Kashmir issue they're right at least. If Hindus are right, then they should prove it. They've been invited on the table to prove the Muslims wrong on this issue many times. They never did.
My understanding, which may be wrong, is that Kashmir has been a part of India for a long time. It is a area that has many people that want to seperate. Is this correct?
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Talha777
03-07-2007, 11:27 PM
My understanding, which may be wrong, is that Kashmir has been a part of India for a long time. It is a area that has many people that want to seperate. Is this correct?
Kashmir was STOLEN by India forcefully since 1947. Ever since they have been brutally slaughtering any Muslims who try to resist them. They have imprisoned Muslim leaders and accused anyone who resists their repression as being "terrorists". Mainstream Indian political parties like BJP are not interested in "secularism", they want to transform India into a Hindu state. They faciliated the martyrdom of Babri Masjid (shaheed) back in 1992, and ever since the so called secular, democratic India has failed to restore the Masjid. The BJP habitually starts communal riots, like the one in Gujarat in 2002 which saw the massacre of thousands of Muslim men, women, children, and elderly. This is the reality the persecuted Muslim community faces daily in India. The real terrorists are Hindus, they seem to have an unquenching thirst for the blood of Muslims.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-07-2007, 11:28 PM
I posted up the video about this in Islamic Multimedia. http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ole-truth.html. If yall think we're lying, go watch it yourselves. 25 views but no comments..hmmm....

If you guys want to discuss this, watch the vid and comment there. I would love some comments on it....neways back to the article.

Peace
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iqbal_soofi
03-07-2007, 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by ACC
My understanding, which may be wrong, is that Kashmir has been a part of India for a long time. It is a area that has many people that want to seperate. Is this correct?
It's not only Kashmir, but also Pakistan was a part of India for a long time in the time of Muslim rulers which continued in the British rule. Then due to many reasons Muslims decided to separate from India. It was agreed that Muslim majority areas would go to Pakistan. Kashmir is a Muslim majority area which was occupied by India by force. Kashmiris are struggling to get out of Indian occupation since then. Pakistan and India have fought many wars on this dispute. India promised to hold a plebicite in Kashmir under the supervision of UNO when in 1948 it faced a defeat from Pakistani and Kashmiri forces. After that it's been delaying the political solution. It's depolyed the bigged army in Kashmir to supress their freedom. Millions of Kashmir Muslims have been killed by the Indian army. It's the Indians who termed the Kashmiri freedom fighters as terrorists.
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Muhammad
03-07-2007, 11:48 PM
:sl: and Greetings,

We have plenty of threads already on the topic of Kashmir in the World Affairs section. If this thread is not headed for a productive course then it may as well be closed.

I would also like to clarify that we do not defend unislamic actions pertaining to violence and injustice. An action is wrong regardless of who the perpetrator happens to be.
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ACC
03-07-2007, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
:sl: and Greetings,

We have plenty of threads already on the topic of Kashmir in the World Affairs section. If this thread is not headed for a productive course then it may as well be closed.

I would also like to clarify that we do not defend unislamic actions pertaining to violence and injustice. An action is wrong regardless of who the perpetrator happens to be.
I am not sure you can use the word, 'We', in this situation. You may not, but it appears that some have.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 11:52 PM
on the Kashmir issue they're right at least
Just more, We are right, everyone else is wrong.
If Hindus are right, then they should prove it.
Why don't Muslims "Prove It"? Oh I forgot, Muslims are always right.
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wilberhum
03-07-2007, 11:57 PM
Millions of Kashmir Muslims have been killed by the Indian army.
And Millions of Kashmir Indians have been killed by Muslims.
It's the Indians who termed the Kashmiri freedom fighters as terrorists.
The Indians and the rest of the non-Muslim world. Oh, I forgot, they can't be terrorists, there Muslims.
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iqbal_soofi
03-07-2007, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Just more, We are right, everyone else is wrong.

Why don't Muslims "Prove It"? Oh I forgot, Muslims are always right.
Muslims already proved it when they got Pakistan on table. They want to prove it also for Kashmir. If you want to prove them wrong then don't tell your leadership to run away from the table. Nobody but you proved yourself wrong with this kind of behaviour.
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Muhammad
03-08-2007, 12:03 AM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by ACC
I am not sure you can use the word, 'We', in this situation. You may not, but it appears that some have.
Yes, few members may have done when they shouldn't have. But we as a forum do not accept this.
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wilberhum
03-08-2007, 12:03 AM
Muslims already proved it
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
That must have happened when the world wasn't watching.

Anyway, you have the right to live in your little world where every thing you like is perfect and everything you don't like is wrong.

I won't burst your bubble.

BY, by :D
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iqbal_soofi
03-08-2007, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
That must have happened when the world wasn't watching.

Anyway, you have the right to live in your little world where every thing you like is perfect and everything you don't like is wrong.

I won't burst your bubble.

BY, by :D
Do you mean to say that the world was sleeping during the liberation movement of India? Do you think the world will not be watching when Indian and Pak leadership discuss the issue of Kashmir on table and you fear that Pakistan will snatch Kashmir from the hands of Indian leadership even if these are held in India?

What kind of big world you live where everything you grab by force or cheating is perfect and everything others take from you through political dialogue by proving that belonged to them is wrong.
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wilberhum
03-08-2007, 12:25 AM
As I said:
I won't burst your bubble.

BY, by
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snakelegs
03-08-2007, 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
This article is good at representing a particular world view, but doesn't really face the realities of the situation. I found it very disingenious that the article mentioned a terrorist act committed by a Jewish settler, but not the opposite side of the coin. Muslims aren't the only "victims" in the world and have in fact created as many victims as they have produced, IMO. Of course many Muslims are being victimized globally, just as many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and athiests are being victimized. This article devotes one sentence to the violent acts of Muslims, referring to them as "fringe groups". While I don't have a problem with that assumption, I think the article is a little less than honest about the complexity of the situation overall.
i agree with this - it was over-simplified and one-sided.
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iqbal_soofi
03-08-2007, 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i agree with this - it was over-simplified and one-sided.
I also think it is one sided and simplified like most of the articles are supposed to be. It's posted here by somebody for debate. Members with a different view point can post their opion and their views about the same issue. This would give us more opportunity to learn from many angles. Moreover, members will be able to know about many other issues while discussing one topic. For example many members might have learnt something about the Kashmir issue and Hindu attitude towards Muslims in the sub-continent during the same thread. We can learn about a lot of more issues during a debate on any one issue.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-08-2007, 02:34 AM
Although we should look at "both sides," in general, people really dont. We are blasted more with what Muslims do than what others do. And u cant deny that. Anyways, can we get back to article, please?
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snakelegs
03-08-2007, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Although we should look at "both sides," in general, people really dont. We are blasted more with what Muslims do than what others do. And u cant deny that. Anyways, can we get back to article, please?
that's true too.
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iqbal_soofi
03-08-2007, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Although we should look at "both sides," in general, people really dont. We are blasted more with what Muslims do than what others do. And u cant deny that. Anyways, can we get back to article, please?
You've a very good observation. People don't look at both sides. It's not completely the fault of the people only if they don't look at both sides. They're taught like this. Teachings of sentimentalism, patriotism, and religious extremism have damaged the brains and circumcised their vision. The educated youth have developed a tunnel vision at a very early age. They cannot see light anywhere except at the other end of the tunnel (in the next world). For them everything around them in this world is dark or blacked out. This kind of thinking normally develops at the very old age when a person is on the deathbed and is left with no future in this world. He satisfies him/herself with the imaginations of ones future in the next world. The institutions for teaching sentimentalism in Muslims have brought the young Muslims to their deathbeds where they see themselves as only victims and all others only aggressors. They’re not ready to believe that there’re some good or nice people on the other side as well as there’re some bad elements on their side who teach them sentimentalism and promote hatred not only against others, but against each other.
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cihad
03-08-2007, 02:24 PM
btw, i think this article is quite old, cos it mentions Saddam
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