1st Clash Between the Foreigners & Pashtuns in Waziristan

[snakelegs]

i'm not sure what this means. there has been a lot going on in the FATA (tribal area) and i find it confusing.
so, i'd be interresting in comments from someone who does know more on this story, or relating to any of the recent news from waziristan.

share your thoughts.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ISL249039.htm

Al Qaeda Uzbeks, Pakistani tribesmen clash; 17 dead
06 Mar 2007 14:43:23 GMT

WANA, Pakistan, March 6 (Reuters) - Seventeen people, including 12 al Qaeda-linked Uzbeks, were killed on Tuesday in the first reported clash between militants and tribesmen in a Pakistani region seen as a hotbed of militant support.

Three Pakistani tribesmen and two Afghan refugees were among the dead in the fighting in Azam Warsak, a village in the South Waziristan region near the Afghan border, intelligence officials said.

"Both sides used AK-47 Kalashnikov rifles," said one intelligence official who declined to be identified.

The fighting broke out in the village market after militants tried to assassinate a pro-government tribal elder, Malik Saeedullah Khan, they said. A brother of Khan was killed, one official said.

Hundreds of foreign militants, most of them Uzbeks, Chechens and Arabs, have been hiding in Waziristan and some other Pakistani tribal areas after fleeing Afghanistan when U.S.-led forces defeated the Taliban in late 2001.

Militants in North and South Waziristan have killed dozens of people, including government officials, tribal elders they accused of supporting the Pakistani government and people accused of spying for U.S. forces in neighbouring Afghanistan.

While many people have been assassinated by the militants, the fighting on Tuesday was the first reported clash between the militants and ethnic Pashtun tribesmen in the area.

The militants opened fire at Khan, the head of a government-backed peace committee, as he passed through the market area.

Khan escaped unhurt and later up to 250 tribesmen took to the bazaar and exchanged fire with the militants.

"Sporadic fighting is still going on and angry tribesmen have blocked the road linking Azam Warsak to Wana," said another intelligence official, referring to the main town in South Waziristan.

It was the second time the Uzbeks had tried to kill Khan in three days.

The Uzbek fighters belonged to the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) militant group, one of the intelligence officials said.

Azam Warsak and nearby areas were the scene of fierce fighting in 2004, when Pakistani security forces launched a major operation against militants commanded by IMU leader, Tahir Yuldashev.

More than 100 people were killed in that fighting but Yuldashev, who is accused of a series of bomb blasts in the Uzbek capital, Tashkent, in 1999, escaped.

[snakelegs]

bump.
does anyone have any informed comments about what is happening in waziristan/NWFP? i read a lot of different and conflicting reports.
pakistan has announced plans to build a fence along the border with afghanistan - (origninally, they were going to put mines there to but were talked out of it) - i guess this would be along the durand line? there is much opposition to this as there are pashtuns who have relatives on both sides of the border, which has always been porous.
i spoke with someone who just came back from visiting relatives in frontier province and he said there are real fears that if pakistan can not/will not take control, the u.s. would start bombing "suspected" strongholds. there have been 2 bombings recently - apparently by u.s. drones. one was a madrassa and a number of students were killed.
would appreciate any thoughts/info.
thanks.

[wilberhum]

I too would like to see what informed people have to say.
I have heard a couple of reports stating that the Taliban are murdering tribal leaders and killing anyone that does not support them.

[mahdisoldier19]

I too would like to see what informed people have to say.
I have heard a couple of reports stating that the Taliban are murdering tribal leaders and killing anyone that does not support them.

Completely Wrong Reports

Waziristan is a land in between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Its a Dominated Poshtun Tribal area, in which Pakistan knows that they cannot control. Pakistan attempted in 2004 to take Waziristan, but failed due to the intense fighting against the Poshtuns and signed a peace treaty.

Now someone(not you) who claims the Taliban kills anyone who does not support them is very contradictory considering the fact that the Poshtuns makeup the Taliban. Due to the massive Deaths of Innocent civilians from Aircraft missiles by the invasion of Afghanistan, also in which the United States was exposed in sending missiles to Madrassas and innocent civilian targets in Waziristan. The Poshtuns now undoubtedly support the Taliban, considering the Talibs are they're people.

The only people that receive the Death Penalty by the Taliban are spies and those who commit transgression against Islamic Law. The murder of tribal leaders, have never been confirmed. Although there has been cases of tribal leaders being killed due to their issue of spying.

The Taliban do not kill anyone who does not support them, to come to that conclusion is simple Stupidity due to the fact that how can the Taliban still stand at this point if they had killed everyone who does not support them. If the Taliban have stood at this point and have grown, it surely would draw an conclusion that they have support amongst the Poshtun Population.

Naik Muhammad was a commander killed by the US Drone, Although the United States denied this, if anyone had seen the Special on Channel 13. That special exposes the US Airstrike attack by a Pakistani Reporter, although the US government Denied.

Due to the bombing of Naik Muhammad and other students and innocent people, the Poshtuns have risen up to view this as a massive invasion by the USA against the Poshtuns.

You cannot win peoples hearts by dropping 2,000 ibs on them, regardless if only a few insurgents are there. You have to win their hearts by supporting them. Those who give the excuse that "Oh the taliban are making it difficult", well since 2001 to 2005, there was no reconstruction in Southern Afghanistan. This led the Poshtuns to believe that this administration's is the Puppet of the American invasion for the benefit of the Northern Alliance, in turn this led to countless civilian deaths amongst the Poshtun.

Also the Poshtun moral code has been breached. Humiliation and other tactics used by Certain Soldiers, now embarrassed the Poshtun people. Now if your a Poshtun you would know that humiliation is worse then death, so in that aspect, certain individuals must understand that Humiliation is not a tactic to be used.

Also for those who desire "evidence"

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/stor...3000905700.htm
(Nato Bombings killed this Poshtun's Family, therefore he Joined the Taliban)

http://www.archive.org/details/Taliban
(Poshtun Villagers Humiliated)

So one has to understand their point of view before drawing conclusions and off course as usual i am more than happy to clear up misconceptions.

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[snakelegs]

Completely Wrong Reports

Waziristan is a land in between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Its a Dominated Poshtun Tribal area, in which Pakistan knows that they cannot control. Pakistan attempted in 2004 to take Waziristan, but failed due to the intense fighting against the Poshtuns and signed a peace treaty.

Now someone(not you) who claims the Taliban kills anyone who does not support them is very contradictory considering the fact that the Poshtuns makeup the Taliban. Due to the massive Deaths of Innocent civilians from Aircraft missiles by the invasion of Afghanistan, also in which the United States was exposed in sending missiles to Madrassas and innocent civilian targets in Waziristan. The Poshtuns now undoubtedly support the Taliban, considering the Talibs are they're people.

The only people that receive the Death Penalty by the Taliban are spies and those who commit transgression against Islamic Law. The murder of tribal leaders, have never been confirmed. Although there has been cases of tribal leaders being killed due to their issue of spying.

The Taliban do not kill anyone who does not support them, to come to that conclusion is simple Stupidity due to the fact that how can the Taliban still stand at this point if they had killed everyone who does not support them. If the Taliban have stood at this point and have grown, it surely would draw an conclusion that they have support amongst the Poshtun Population.

Naik Muhammad was a commander killed by the US Drone, Although the United States denied this, if anyone had seen the Special on Channel 13. That special exposes the US Airstrike attack by a Pakistani Reporter, although the US government Denied.

Due to the bombing of Naik Muhammad and other students and innocent people, the Poshtuns have risen up to view this as a massive invasion by the USA against the Poshtuns.

You cannot win peoples hearts by dropping 2,000 ibs on them, regardless if only a few insurgents are there. You have to win their hearts by supporting them. Those who give the excuse that "Oh the taliban are making it difficult", well since 2001 to 2005, there was no reconstruction in Southern Afghanistan. This led the Poshtuns to believe that this administration's is the Puppet of the American invasion for the benefit of the Northern Alliance, in turn this led to countless civilian deaths amongst the Poshtun.

Also the Poshtun moral code has been breached. Humiliation and other tactics used by Certain Soldiers, now embarrassed the Poshtun people. Now if your a Poshtun you would know that humiliation is worse then death, so in that aspect, certain individuals must understand that Humiliation is not a tactic to be used.

Also for those who desire "evidence"

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/stor...3000905700.htm
(Nato Bombings killed this Poshtun's Family, therefore he Joined the Taliban)

http://www.archive.org/details/Taliban
(Poshtun Villagers Humiliated)

So one has to understand their point of view before drawing conclusions and off course as usual i am more than happy to clear up misconceptions.

hi mahdisoldier,
actually, i had you in mind when i posted the article. i know there are other pashtuns here too and i hope they will comment.
i don't know if you read my post or just wilberhum's.
as for what you have written above, i couldn't agree more: you do not win hearts by dropping bombs on people in pursuit of some Badguys. all this accomplishes is an increase in recruitment to taliban.
i know what you are saying about the pashtuns sense of honour is very true and they are humiliated and very angered by the entry of the pakistani troops in to FATA.
as i mentioned, i have a pashtun friend who just came back from visiting his family in frontier province. like the other pashtuns i know, he does not support the taliban. yes, the taliban are pashtuns but not all pashtuns support or agree with the taliban by any means.
anyway, he expressed 2 big concerns:
the increasing talibanization of FATA and frontier province itself.
the possibility that the u.s. is going to do more bombings if the pak army can not control the situation, as they seem unable to do. like you said, they had to retreat from FATA.
so here are some questions. i realize that you support the taliban, whereas most of my info comes from pashtuns emphatically who do not. this is why i would be interested in your take on this issue.
would it be incorrect to say that the pashtuns are almost as angry at the central gov't of pak, as they are at the u.s.?
how do you and the people you know (i assume you still have family there) feel about the pak gov't's plan to build a fence along the pak/afghan border?
do you think this will be a first step into making the durand line "real"?
are you from eastern or western "pakhtunkhwa"?
the increase in suicide bombings seems to indicate more of a growth in al-qaeda. the taliban does not go in for suicide bombings - or have they adopted this tactic too by now?
are the taliban and al-qaeda interests quite different and his there a growing rift between the 2 groups?
are the locals getting sick of all the foreigners in their area?
what do yo think of musharraf - the americans and afghans are pressuring him, but he seems incapable (unwilling?) to really do anything?
thanks.

[don532]

"Due to the massive Deaths of Innocent civilians from Aircraft missiles by the invasion of Afghanistan, also in which the United States was exposed in sending missiles to Madrassas and innocent civilian targets in Waziristan."

Really. How many innocent civilians?

[wilberhum]

mahdisoldier19

who claims the Taliban kills anyone who does not support them is very contradictory considering the fact that the Poshtuns makeup the Taliban.

That implies that all Poshtuns support the Taliban. I find that most unlikely. Most? Maybe. All? Not a chance.

The only people that receive the Death Penalty by the Taliban are spies and those who commit transgression against Islamic Law.

Spies! That is the must overused accusation there is. Everyone who is for someone other that the group is a spy. Every group uses that excuse. There is also the implication of a perfect organized group that always and only does good things. I don’t think there is any group in the world like that.

Although there has been cases of tribal leaders being killed due to their issue of spying.

And who were those leaders spying for? The tribal leader has no right to support any one other that the Taliban? How did the Taliban become the ONLY legitimate government of Waziristan?

how can the Taliban still stand at this point if they had killed everyone who does not support them.

Let me count the ways. Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Papa Doc, and how many thousands of others like Kumar Rouge.

innocent civilian targets

Is your implication that the US purposely targets “Innocent Civilians”, or “Innocent Civilians” are killed? What ever! Your statements against the US, valid or not, does not mean that all is well in Waziristan, with the exception of the evil the US does.

Interesting links.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/stor...3000905700.htm

The high-profile Taliban military commander, Mullah Dadullah, said that 20,000 fighters were being mobilised for a "spring offensive" against the occupation forces. Days after the warning, there was a suicide attack in Jalalabad, targeting a U.S. military convoy.
……….
the number of suicide attacks has quadrupled since 2005.
So I guess this Taliban commander is creating suicide attacks. Wow, what a man of god.
the tribal leaders of Wazirstan last September. In exchange for more autonomy, the tribal leaders pledged to purge the Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters from their mountainous territory.

So are the tribal leaders just a bunch of liars?

http://www.archive.org/details/Taliban

Taliban Country (2004)
The broadcast of the documentary on Australian television has led to two U.S. military investigations.

Well I’m glad there were investigations. I tried to find out the results, but found nothing.
But till I’m not sure what a 2004 report in Afghanistan has to do with 2007 infightings in Waziristan. Or is it just another chance to prove that everything America does is evil?

So one has to understand their point of view before drawing conclusions and off course as usual i am more than happy to clear up misconceptions.

Will I’m not sure where “Fogget bout it!” is. Is that within the tribal areas? Do you have relatives there? Is your knowledge direct or indirect? But I don’t think your reply answers what Snakelegs was looking for.
You just seem to have a standard set of biases, just like we all do. Myself included.

[mahdisoldier19]

hi mahdisoldier,
actually, i had you in mind when i posted the article. i know there are other pashtuns here too and i hope they will comment.
i don't know if you read my post or just wilberhum's.
as for what you have written above, i couldn't agree more: you do not win hearts by dropping bombs on people in pursuit of some Badguys. all this accomplishes is an increase in recruitment to taliban.
i know what you are saying about the pashtuns sense of honour is very true and they are humiliated and very angered by the entry of the pakistani troops in to FATA.
as i mentioned, i have a pashtun friend who just came back from visiting his family in frontier province. like the other pashtuns i know, he does not support the taliban. yes, the taliban are pashtuns but not all pashtuns support or agree with the taliban by any means.
anyway, he expressed 2 big concerns:
the increasing talibanization of FATA and frontier province itself.
the possibility that the u.s. is going to do more bombings if the pak army can not control the situation, as they seem unable to do. like you said, they had to retreat from FATA.
so here are some questions. i realize that you support the taliban, whereas most of my info comes from pashtuns emphatically who do not. this is why i would be interested in your take on this issue.
would it be incorrect to say that the pashtuns are almost as angry at the central gov't of pak, as they are at the u.s.?
how do you and the people you know (i assume you still have family there) feel about the pak gov't's plan to build a fence along the pak/afghan border?
do you think this will be a first step into making the durand line "real"?
are you from eastern or western "pakhtunkhwa"?
the increase in suicide bombings seems to indicate more of a growth in al-qaeda. the taliban does not go in for suicide bombings - or have they adopted this tactic too by now?
are the taliban and al-qaeda interests quite different and his there a growing rift between the 2 groups?
are the locals getting sick of all the foreigners in their area?
what do yo think of musharraf - the americans and afghans are pressuring him, but he seems incapable (unwilling?) to really do anything?
thanks.

Hello Snakelegs,

Before i answer i would like to clear up the fact that i DO NOT Support the Taliban. I just believe that they were the best thing that could out of Afghanistan from the early 90s of chaos in Afghanistan.

I respect your approach and respect you as a human being which is why i will not just blurr out rhetoric.

1) The Poshtuns are undoubtedly angry at the Pakistani Government, they view them as puppets of the Bush Administration

2) That fence will not be implemented regardless of what they have stated. The poshtuns makeup half of the ISI and nearly half of the Pakistani Army who are loyal to the tribal elders. In that aspect it will be very difficult for the Pakistani Army to implement such a fence.

3) The Taliban have adopted the tactic of Suicide Bombings, due to a Fatwa being Issued by an Islamic Scholar as well as them seeing the efficiency of Suicide Bombings in Iraq. So in that aspect the Taliban believe they will make NATO bleed through SB. Also to note, The NATO and US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot go for another 30 to 40 years, eventually the population will be tired of these two wars. However, in Poshtun culture part of code means whether it be 1 year or 1000 years, the Revenge will be swift as the cunning wind. So be assured that NATO will receive surprises from the Taliban due to the massive bombings of civilians.

4) The Taliban expect to only establish a Sharia In Afghanistan. However Al-Qaeda attempts to bring the whole world under Sharia, 2 similiar ideologies, but different implementations. However, the Taliban recently announced that once NATO leaves they will continue to conquer all the way until they reach Palestine. (The first such call made by Poshtuns in Hundreds of Years to actually go towards the West rather than east in India)

5) The locals are not getting sick of the foreigners, yet some of the tribal leaders view the foreigners as helpers. However there has been some instances of disagreements on tactics being implemented.

I DO NOT Support the Taliban, however i clear the misconceptions about them. I just believe they are the best group for controlling the Poshtun People.

6) The thing with Musharref is the fact that half of his Secret Agency are loyal to the Taliban. Its not easy to just conquer and control the tribal areas between Afghanistan and Pakistan. The British could not do it, the Russians could not, and no one should expect Pakistan to attempt this.

He is very incapable of doing anything, half of his country are supporters of the Taliban. If i were you speak well to your Poshtun friend and ask him for the truth, you might hear a different side of the Poshtun concerning the Talibs.

In Peshawar do not be suprised to find Poshtuns with Ak-47s who support the Taliban. The lies that the Tribal chiefs do not support them are completely propraganda. The tribal chiefs have complete support for the Talibs, why? Because due to the massive aerial bombings, they started to change their mind about this Invasion.

Why is there a Jump in Taliban Offensive?

Now all the Poshtuns view this invasion as an invasion against the Poshtuns.

1) Their people and lands have been bombed
2) Their sacred culture has not been respected and ruined
3) The abuse by NATO and certain soldiers(Note certain soldiers i do not believe all USA is evil) on poshtuns will cause a problem.

For every poshtun they kill whether it be innocent or insurgent, expect 2 more to take his/her place.

Thank You.

[Erundur]

3) The Taliban have adopted the tactic of Suicide Bombings, due to a Fatwa being Issued by an Islamic Scholar as well as them seeing the efficiency of Suicide Bombings in Iraq. So in that aspect the Taliban believe they will make NATO bleed through SB. Also to note, The NATO and US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot go for another 30 to 40 years, eventually the population will be tired of these two wars. However, in Poshtun culture part of code means whether it be 1 year or 1000 years, the Revenge will be swift as the cunning wind. So be assured that NATO will receive surprises from the Taliban due to the massive bombings of civilians.

:salamext:
In regards to the suicide bombings, what do you think of them?
:sl:

[snakelegs]

Hello Snakelegs,

Before i answer i would like to clear up the fact that i DO NOT Support the Taliban. I just believe that they were the best thing that could out of Afghanistan from the early 90s of chaos in Afghanistan.

I respect your approach and respect you as a human being which is why i will not just blurr out rhetoric.

1) The Poshtuns are undoubtedly angry at the Pakistani Government, they view them as puppets of the Bush Administration

2) That fence will not be implemented regardless of what they have stated. The poshtuns makeup half of the ISI and nearly half of the Pakistani Army who are loyal to the tribal elders. In that aspect it will be very difficult for the Pakistani Army to implement such a fence.

3) The Taliban have adopted the tactic of Suicide Bombings, due to a Fatwa being Issued by an Islamic Scholar as well as them seeing the efficiency of Suicide Bombings in Iraq. So in that aspect the Taliban believe they will make NATO bleed through SB. Also to note, The NATO and US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot go for another 30 to 40 years, eventually the population will be tired of these two wars. However, in Poshtun culture part of code means whether it be 1 year or 1000 years, the Revenge will be swift as the cunning wind. So be assured that NATO will receive surprises from the Taliban due to the massive bombings of civilians.

4) The Taliban expect to only establish a Sharia In Afghanistan. However Al-Qaeda attempts to bring the whole world under Sharia, 2 similiar ideologies, but different implementations. However, the Taliban recently announced that once NATO leaves they will continue to conquer all the way until they reach Palestine. (The first such call made by Poshtuns in Hundreds of Years to actually go towards the West rather than east in India)

5) The locals are not getting sick of the foreigners, yet some of the tribal leaders view the foreigners as helpers. However there has been some instances of disagreements on tactics being implemented.

I DO NOT Support the Taliban, however i clear the misconceptions about them. I just believe they are the best group for controlling the Poshtun People.

6) The thing with Musharref is the fact that half of his Secret Agency are loyal to the Taliban. Its not easy to just conquer and control the tribal areas between Afghanistan and Pakistan. The British could not do it, the Russians could not, and no one should expect Pakistan to attempt this.

He is very incapable of doing anything, half of his country are supporters of the Taliban. If i were you speak well to your Poshtun friend and ask him for the truth, you might hear a different side of the Poshtun concerning the Talibs.

In Peshawar do not be suprised to find Poshtuns with Ak-47s who support the Taliban. The lies that the Tribal chiefs do not support them are completely propraganda. The tribal chiefs have complete support for the Talibs, why? Because due to the massive aerial bombings, they started to change their mind about this Invasion.

Why is there a Jump in Taliban Offensive?

Now all the Poshtuns view this invasion as an invasion against the Poshtuns.

1) Their people and lands have been bombed
2) Their sacred culture has not been respected and ruined
3) The abuse by NATO and certain soldiers(Note certain soldiers i do not believe all USA is evil) on poshtuns will cause a problem.

For every poshtun they kill whether it be innocent or insurgent, expect 2 more to take his/her place.

Thank You.

thanks for your answer, mahdisoldier. i had made an assumption that you were a supporter of the taliban, but now i realize that you support them only compared to the others.
my friends are opposed to the taliban and against efforts to institute shariah in frontier province but oddly enough, what you wrote didn't really contradict the info i've gotten from their impressions. however, it did fill some gaps in my knowledge. i didn't realize that the taliban is coming closer to al-qaeda both ideologically and tactically.
is it fair to say the taliban are largely a creatiion of the saudis through their funding of the madrasas, the u.s. and the ISI? (leftover from cold war)? in a way, it no longer matters.
yes, i can't really imagine the pashtuns putting up with a fence for very long!
a little side question - how do you feel about the establishment of pakhtunkhwa? my friends are very much in favour of it because pashtuns have never been treated fairly from the very beginning and have been used as cannon fodder. i don't know which is stronger - the hatred of the central government or the hatred of the u.s.
"pashtunwali" is hard for a foreigner to understand, but i do understand some of it - enough to know you are a proud people who will not be messed with.
thanks again.

[mahdisoldier19]

Hello,

I would say the Taliban was the creation of few mujahideen who sought to bring restoration to a country which was in deep anarchy since 1988. A country that just witnessed war and living in chaos. From a group of 30 people led by a Mullah, which grew and ultimately controlled 95 percent of Afghanistan

Also to the Northern Alliance supporters ( by the way you cannot support NA Islamically since they were fighting the Talibs(Establishers of the Deen), Ahmed Shah Masood was not a fighter for Afghanistan but a fighter for Pansjher. Mullah Omar never did resolve to kill Ahmed Shah Masood because in the beginning of the Russian invasion he was a great mujahid(no question), If the Taliban had wanted, little 5 percent of Afghanistan would have been in control. By the way, the Taliban were going to take the rest of the 5 percent within the 2001-2002, but do to the invasion, process slowed.

Those who claim the Taliban are oppressors and evil compared to the Anarchy that it was before they had come. Those people have never been to Afghanistan before the Taliban. They were welcomed by the people, the poshtuns and even a few tajiks,uzbeks, hazara in certain areas of the North. I would also like to challenge the Taliban, that they had done as a whole, UNDER THE CALL OF THE LEADER Mullah Muhammad Omar that was so oppressive to Afghanistan COMPARED to the state of Anarchy that it was previously?

See, no one understands Afghanistan before the Taliban had arrived. No one wishes to understand these issues, but rather draw assumptions.

As for the Pashtun Wali, As a matter of fact. The only man i believe who raised an army of non-violence in the hundreds of thousands in the 21st century was a poshtun by the name of Badshah khan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Abdul_Ghaffar_Khan

I think you would like this read Snakelegs, the above Wikipedia
As for the PashtunWali

Ghandi said it best...

Yours is the true non-violence, it is the non-violence of the strong, not the non-violence of the weak and starving.

-– Mahatma Gandhi speaking directly to the Pashtuns

[snakelegs]

yes, i know about bacha khan and it's a shame more people don't. people are always surprised at the concept of a "muslim gandhi". like "muslim" and "non-violence" are mutually exclusive.
but he was more of a socialist, wasn't he? certainly not an advocate of shariah!
the pashtuns i know would be very opposed to the establishment of shariah in frontier province and believe it would take the society backwords, when it badly needs to move forward.
also, some feel that the "religious card" is played to combat pashtun nationalism and the desire for independence or autonomy. any thoughts on this?
sometimes when people judge the taliban (and i am no admirer!) i think it's because they don't know anything about the context - what was going on in afghanistan before the taliban took control.
actually, this is a problem in general - we know certain news stories but we don't know the context in order to be able evaluate them. and the other problem (i fall into this too) - sometimes because we know a little, we think we know a lot. information is hard to come by because everyone has an axe to grind and there is no such thing as an unbiased report. and no one really has time to do indepth research. so, it a way, it is unavoidable. it's interesting to me that your information is not really different from that i get from my friends, even though you would be in sharp disagreement politically.
and finally, with a big leap off topic (it's my thread!), i am curious about your signature:
"I Do not Support any Extremist or Fundamentalist Groups, We should all strive for a Democratic State in which Free Thought can be Expressed"
from your previous posts, you would like to see shariah law come into practice. in your opinion would it be compatible with "Democratic State in which Free Thought can be Expressed"?
thanks again.

[AmarFaisal]

Assalamoalaikum
I just feel bad that nothing has gone well for Pakistan since it's independence. The FATA or NWFP area was always a difficult one to control by foreigners. Additionally, the foreign influences on Pakistan government has made matters worse.
I often wonder if Musharraf could have done better by standing up against US like the Iranian President. But Iran can do better now standing against US becoz it's worst enemy Iraq is no more. Whereas, there was every chance that standing against US would have led to a war b/w Pakistan and India ( becoz US would support India to do so). And who knows where it could have gone.

The British have divided our continent into pieces ny dividing the hearts into halves, giving away half an heart to one country and the other half to another. Punjab is divided, Kashmir is divided, NWFP, Frontier is divided and Baluchistan too. Pakistan is made up of small pieces of many hearts.

true?!

[snakelegs]

Assalamoalaikum
I just feel bad that nothing has gone well for Pakistan since it's independence. The FATA or NWFP area was always a difficult one to control by foreigners. Additionally, the foreign influences on Pakistan government has made matters worse.
I often wonder if Musharraf could have done better by standing up against US like the Iranian President. But Iran can do better now standing against US becoz it's worst enemy Iraq is no more. Whereas, there was every chance that standing against US would have led to a war b/w Pakistan and India ( becoz US would support India to do so). And who knows where it could have gone.

The British have divided our continent into pieces ny dividing the hearts into halves, giving away half an heart to one country and the other half to another. Punjab is divided, Kashmir is divided, NWFP, Frontier is divided and Baluchistan too. Pakistan is made up of small pieces of many hearts.

true?!

from what i know limited tho it is, yes - sadly, it's all too true. i think that partition was one of the major tragedies of last century. (feels so funny to type "last century"). but it cannot be undone.
i think a lot of countries' problems stem from being arbitrarily divided by the colonizers before leaving so - in a way, so in a way, colonialism didn't die when the colonizers left.
i don't think anyone is happy with musharraf. but you're right - he is in an impossible situation and can please no one. he does not have the advantage that iran has since the u.s. invasion of iraq.

[KAding]

<double post - ignore>

[KAding]

from what i know limited tho it is, yes - sadly, it's all too true. i think that partition was one of the major tragedies of last century. (feels so funny to type "last century"). but it cannot be undone.
i think a lot of countries' problems stem from being arbitrarily divided by the colonizers before leaving so - in a way, so in a way, colonialism didn't die when the colonizers left.

I was always under the impression that the independence of India and Pakistan was very much different from many other colonies, mainly in Africa. Most African countries are thought to be a mess because the borders didn't take any account of religious and ethnic make-up of the country. In India the exact opposite happen, with a partition along religious lines. Weren't there many forces in India that wanted the partition, both Muslims and Hindu nationalists alike? I could be wrong though, my knowledge on the partition is somewhat limited.

Good thread btw! :thumbs_up

[snakelegs]

I was always under the impression that the independence of India and Pakistan was very much different from many other colonies, mainly in Africa. Most African countries are thought to be a mess because the borders didn't take any account of religious and ethnic make-up of the country. In India the exact opposite happen, with a partition along religious lines. Weren't there many forces in India that wanted the partition, both Muslims and Hindu nationalists alike? I could be wrong though, my knowledge on the partition is somewhat limited.

Good thread btw! :thumbs_up

yes, there were many forces that wanted partition, so it is different from the usual haphazard borders drawn up in africa and you're right - not really comparable.
from what i know, it was largely the brits who sowed division between hindus and muslims (typical colonial tactic), which led to the demands for partition. they freaked out when muslims and hindus rose up together against the against them in 1857 (i think).
it was a tragedy (in my view) - it was one of the biggest migrations in history, there were massacres done by both hindus and muslims - it was one horrible nightmare.
amarfaisal put it quite beautifully when he wrote:

The British have divided our continent into pieces ny dividing the hearts into halves, giving away half an heart to one country and the other half to another. Punjab is divided, Kashmir is divided, NWFP, Frontier is divided and Baluchistan too. Pakistan is made up of small pieces of many hearts.

but that is past and india is divided. both countries now have to waste millions of dollars on defense. if only they could bury the past and come together and go forward!
a number of people here would know a lot more than i do - hope they'll comment.
btw, a good book on this subject is "freedom at midnight".

[AmarFaisal]

Freedom at midnight..author is ?

[snakelegs]

Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins
yes, they're westerners but it's still a good book on the subject.

[mahdisoldier19]

yes, i know about bacha khan and it's a shame more people don't. people are always surprised at the concept of a "muslim gandhi". like "muslim" and "non-violence" are mutually exclusive.
but he was more of a socialist, wasn't he? certainly not an advocate of shariah!
the pashtuns i know would be very opposed to the establishment of shariah in frontier province and believe it would take the society backwords, when it badly needs to move forward.
also, some feel that the "religious card" is played to combat pashtun nationalism and the desire for independence or autonomy. any thoughts on this?
sometimes when people judge the taliban (and i am no admirer!) i think it's because they don't know anything about the context - what was going on in afghanistan before the taliban took control.
actually, this is a problem in general - we know certain news stories but we don't know the context in order to be able evaluate them. and the other problem (i fall into this too) - sometimes because we know a little, we think we know a lot. information is hard to come by because everyone has an axe to grind and there is no such thing as an unbiased report. and no one really has time to do indepth research. so, it a way, it is unavoidable. it's interesting to me that your information is not really different from that i get from my friends, even though you would be in sharp disagreement politically.
and finally, with a big leap off topic (it's my thread!), i am curious about your signature:
"I Do not Support any Extremist or Fundamentalist Groups, We should all strive for a Democratic State in which Free Thought can be Expressed"
from your previous posts, you would like to see shariah law come into practice. in your opinion would it be compatible with "Democratic State in which Free Thought can be Expressed"?
thanks again.

Peace upon you,

Yes some elements of Democracy are very compatible to Islamic Sharia. However as a whole i do not believe they are compatible. The Taliban according to the Islamic Scholars today brought back the True Religion of Islam and established Sharia. That is why they are praised in the Islamic World.

The Durand line does not exist from Pakistan to Afghanistan. The poshtun people hold their control in very high regard, but i do not share the opinion that they do not like the Taliban. It is them who are the Taliban so to say they do not as a whole or most of them, is a complete Contradiction.

[snakelegs]

Peace upon you,

Yes some elements of Democracy are very compatible to Islamic Sharia. However as a whole i do not believe they are compatible. The Taliban according to the Islamic Scholars today brought back the True Religion of Islam and established Sharia. That is why they are praised in the Islamic World.

The Durand line does not exist from Pakistan to Afghanistan. The poshtun people hold their control in very high regard, but i do not share the opinion that they do not like the Taliban. It is them who are the Taliban so to say they do not as a whole or most of them, is a complete Contradiction.

i didn't say pashtuns don't like the taliban. the ones i know do not - altho some feel that they were the best thing at the time for afghanistan. all i said was that not all pashtuns support the taliban. what the actual percentage is, either way, is anybody's guess.
well, pakistan seems to think that the durand line is real - i know most pashtuns don't and i think (?) afghanistan also does not recognize it as a permanent border. it was only supposed to exist until 1990-something or other anyway.
do you think the taliban were practicing shariah law fully and perfectly? was afghanistan under the taliban a good model of an islamic state?
as for bringing back the "true religion of islam," if you're speaking about the people (not the gov't) - i don't think islam ever left - my understanding is that afghans were a very religious and conservative people before the taliban.

[mahdisoldier19]

i didn't say pashtuns don't like the taliban. the ones i know do not - altho some feel that they were the best thing at the time for afghanistan. all i said was that not all pashtuns support the taliban. what the actual percentage is, either way, is anybody's guess.
well, pakistan seems to think that the durand line is real - i know most pashtuns don't and i think (?) afghanistan also does not recognize it as a permanent border. it was only supposed to exist until 1990-something or other anyway.
do you think the taliban were practicing shariah law fully and perfectly? was afghanistan under the taliban a good model of an islamic state?
as for bringing back the "true religion of islam," if you're speaking about the people (not the gov't) - i don't think islam ever left - my understanding is that afghans were a very religious and conservative people before the taliban.

There is no True Sharia that aboded by the Laws of Allah swt since the Ottomans, however in that regard the Ulema in Saudia and Middle East have agreed that the Taliban have brought back the Religion of Ibrahim alayhi salam since the time of the Ottoman. Although i also believe they're approach was an example for those who wish to Establish true Sharia.

Yes i would say concerning the circumstances in Afghanistan, the Taliban are a Prime Example for the Muslim World. Those of a Few, stood against the Superpower of the World. Unlike Pakistani government who themselves became Puppets of Bush, and other Governmental functions that exist in the World.

I believe Islam is there, but the job of the believers was not there. The job is to establish Allah swt word and his Law In the Lands that the Muslims Conquer. Now i ask you, Pakistan no Sharia? Saudi Arabia, is that Sharia(They have interest banks all over), Egypt(Not even close), Lebanon(Good Luck),Iran(Almost went to war with the Taliban). The Taliban were the only ones to effectively control a country of Anarchy in less than 2 years. Do you think if Texas was in a state of anarchy, and every other state and federal administration did not want to bother with Texas. Do you honestly think Texas would Establish full security, Disarm 99 percent of its population, Establish a law in less than 2 years provided that Texas just got invaded and all of it is completely destroyed from a 10 year war, AND there are feuding warlords?

Its not so easy as people think, they love to criticize the Taliban, but when you put them in Afghanistan, then they run back and say Maybe the Taliban were not bad people. Look at the case of Yvonne Ridley.

From another point of view some might say the invasion of Afghanistan from the Russians set the stage for a new awakening of Muslims worldwide.

So no one wants to understand these issues rather follow false propaganda, such as no Education for females(Lies), all fabrications.

But then Again i am just simply stating what that side of the World is stating, i support a democratic state.

[don532]

I believe Islam is there, but the job of the believers was not there. The job is to establish Allah swt word and his Law In the Lands that the Muslims Conquer.

Greetings. Can you explain the words about the lands that Muslims conquer? What type of conquering are you referring to and is that still the job of the believers?

Thank you. Peace.

[snakelegs]

There is no True Sharia that aboded by the Laws of Allah swt since the Ottomans, however in that regard the Ulema in Saudia and Middle East have agreed that the Taliban have brought back the Religion of Ibrahim alayhi salam since the time of the Ottoman. Although i also believe they're approach was an example for those who wish to Establish true Sharia.

Yes i would say concerning the circumstances in Afghanistan, the Taliban are a Prime Example for the Muslim World. Those of a Few, stood against the Superpower of the World. Unlike Pakistani government who themselves became Puppets of Bush, and other Governmental functions that exist in the World.

I believe Islam is there, but the job of the believers was not there. The job is to establish Allah swt word and his Law In the Lands that the Muslims Conquer. Now i ask you, Pakistan no Sharia? Saudi Arabia, is that Sharia(They have interest banks all over), Egypt(Not even close), Lebanon(Good Luck),Iran(Almost went to war with the Taliban). The Taliban were the only ones to effectively control a country of Anarchy in less than 2 years. Do you think if Texas was in a state of anarchy, and every other state and federal administration did not want to bother with Texas. Do you honestly think Texas would Establish full security, Disarm 99 percent of its population, Establish a law in less than 2 years provided that Texas just got invaded and all of it is completely destroyed from a 10 year war, AND there are feuding warlords?

Its not so easy as people think, they love to criticize the Taliban, but when you put them in Afghanistan, then they run back and say Maybe the Taliban were not bad people. Look at the case of Yvonne Ridley.

From another point of view some might say the invasion of Afghanistan from the Russians set the stage for a new awakening of Muslims worldwide.

So no one wants to understand these issues rather follow false propaganda, such as no Education for females(Lies), all fabrications.

But then Again i am just simply stating what that side of the World is stating, i support a democratic state.

i know there is no shariah state. are you saying the taliban came the closest to a shariah state or that they had actually established and carried out shariah in a perfect/model way?
i am no admirer of musharraf (is anyone?), but i really don't think he had any choice - he was probably told "co-operate or we'll bomb you too". in fact, that threat is still very much there and, as you know, the u.s. has done several bombings in waziristan and there is concern that they may step it up more if the pak army cannot establish control in FATA (which, of course, they can't).
you support a democratic state and you support a shariah state - you even said that "on the whole", shariah and democracy are not compatible. isn't this contradictory?
i don't think i blindly "follow false propaganda" - i ask questions, as i have asked you, because i want to learn.
anyway, thanks for the info you've given.

[mahdisoldier19]

i know there is no shariah state. are you saying the taliban came the closest to a shariah state or that they had actually established and carried out shariah in a perfect/model way?
i am no admirer of musharraf (is anyone?), but i really don't think he had any choice - he was probably told "co-operate or we'll bomb you too". in fact, that threat is still very much there and, as you know, the u.s. has done several bombings in waziristan and there is concern that they may step it up more if the pak army cannot establish control in FATA (which, of course, they can't).
you support a democratic state and you support a shariah state - you even said that "on the whole", shariah and democracy are not compatible. isn't this contradictory?
i don't think i blindly "follow false propaganda" - i ask questions, as i have asked you, because i want to learn.
anyway, thanks for the info you've given.

Distinguishing and Supporting are two perspectives. Musharraf was given the ultimatum to support or be bombed. But the Taliban did not care, they keep protection in Allah swt. So the fight this mentality is very difficult, not a simple walk in the park.

I believe they came the closest and Established a model of Sharia. They provided all the fundamental aspects of Sharia and implemented it. That is why i would consider them a model, as far as coming close. What i meant is that in this time period the current modern age in the past 50-60 years, they have come closer than any other state in the world. Also they are a model for an Islamic State is what i am saying.

[snakelegs]

i understand what you're saying. thanks for clarification.
people who have no fear of death are unbeatable.

[mahdisoldier19]

i understand what you're saying. thanks for clarification.
people who have no fear of death are unbeatable.

If you do not mind, i would like your response on the post i made before the previous one, on the issue of Texas and comparison of the Taliban. What do you think of the Taliban when i showed you the comparison to texas?

[snakelegs]

If you do not mind, i would like your response on the post i made before the previous one, on the issue of Texas and comparison of the Taliban. What do you think of the Taliban when i showed you the comparison to texas?

Do you think if Texas was in a state of anarchy, and every other state and federal administration did not want to bother with Texas. Do you honestly think Texas would Establish full security, Disarm 99 percent of its population, Establish a law in less than 2 years provided that Texas just got invaded and all of it is completely destroyed from a 10 year war, AND there are feuding warlords?

no, i don't think it would be able to accomplish that. this is the reason why a lot of people welcomed the taliban - and as far as i know, this was their biggest achievement - they stopped the bloodshed. abstract theories or preferences don't mean much when you don't have security and security was what the people of afghanistan yearned for the most.
i even know people (pashtuns) who hate the taliban, but they don't deny that the taliban brought an end to the years of chaos and bloodshed.

[wilberhum]

Waziristan fighting intensifies
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...50E0173EEC.htm
At least 100 people have been killed in three days of fighting between local people and Uzbeks in northwestern Pakistan, security officials have said.

The fighting began on Monday in the town of Kalusha after Mullah Nazir, an former Taliban commander who now backs the Pakistani government, ordered followers of Tahir Yuldashev, the leader of the Islamic Union of Uzbekistan, to disarm.
Yuldashev refused and Nazir's repeated calls for the Uzbeks to leave the area quickly provoked fighting between the Uzbeks and his own tribal followers.

"Most people are against them because they are the main source of security problems in our area," said one resident, who declined to be identified.

Local people say up to 1,200 Uzbeks are in the region.

Yuldashev, whose central Asian group has been linked to al-Qaeda, has been sentenced to death in absentia for a series bombings in Tashkent, the Uzbek capital.