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fakhan
03-10-2007, 02:59 AM
Assalamu Alakium Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

I have posted this article from a friend of mine, please read it and apply as soon as possible Insha'Allah.

Jazak'Allah Khair.

Sincerely,


Farzan Khan

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Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh

All praise is for Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, and may the peace and blessings be upon his trustworthy Messenger Muhammad (SAW), and as to what follows:

The age we live in today is an age in which our lives are controlled by the world we live in, in which time passes by without us even noticing. As a result of this most people have little time to stop and think about the most fundamental of issues surrounding the very essence of their existence, including many Muslims, especially those who inherited Islam from their parents, and so you find that they have taken their religion for granted, all they know is that their carry the identity of Islam because their parents carried that identity without really trying to understand the true reality of why they were brought into this world in the first place. They fail to realize the true nature of their existence. So even though most of them know that Allah exists and that we are a product of His creation, they often forget to remember that we were created for a specific purpose.

If ten of us try to find out what our purpose is on our own, without considering the Revelation, we might find ten different purposes. This is because most people are confused and they don't really know, and rather than to say "I don't know" they just offer an answer. Think about it: Is our purpose in this life simply to eat, sleep, work, acquire some material things and enjoy ourselves? Is this our purpose? Why were we born? What is the object of our existence, and what is the wisdom behind the creation of man and this universe?

Many who read this may be hearing of these very fundamental and basic questions for the first time in their lives. However, if we look to the Qur'an the answers are there, and so we see that Allah clearly states that He did not create us and the universe without a purpose:

1. "Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding. Those who remember Allah while standing or sitting or lying on their sides, and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, saying, "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly, exalted are You, protect us from the punishment of the Fire." [Aal 'Imran 3:190-191]
2. "And We did not create the heaven and the earth and that which is between them aimlessly. That is the assumption of those who disbelieve, so woe to those who disbelieve from the Fire." [Saa'd 38:27]
3. "And We did not create the heavens and the earth and that which is between them in play." [Ad-Dukhan 44:38]

And furthermore we see in the Qur'an that the purpose of our lives is clearly defined:

1. "O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous." [Al-Baqarah 2:21]
2. "And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." [Adh-Dhariyat 51:56]

These verses were revealed to us by Allah in order to inform us of why we are here, what we should be doing, and where we are heading. Not to benefit Himself nor because He needs our worship, rather because we are in need of Him. We were created for this one reason: to worship Allah and to strive to be the best of deeds.

We have to remember that Allah created life and death so that we may worship Him, and perform that worship in the best manner. That is what our objective should be. Instead of contradicting the purpose of man's existence and acting for the sake of perishable worldly interests, we must fulfill its completion. Our period here is short and being slave to worldly gains results in the corruption of our souls, constant difficulty, worry and poverty.

The Prophet (SAW) said, "Allah says: O Son of Adam, fill your time with My worship and I will fill your heart with richness, and end off your poverty. But if you do not, I would make your hands fully busy (i.e . in worldly affairs) and I would not end off your poverty." (At-Tirmidhee)

So in a nutshell the purpose behind our existence is to recognize the one who created us, to be grateful to Him, to worship Him, to surrender ourselves to Him, and to obey the laws that He has determined for us. It is not enough to say that "I have believed, therefore I have accomplished this purpose." Allah commands us in the Qur'an to enter into Islam completely not partially:

"O you who believe! Enter into Islam completely, and follow not the footsteps of Shaytan. Verily, he is to you an open enemy." [Al-Baqarah 2:208]

And Allah warns us of being from among those who took their religion lightly:

"And the companions of the Fire will call to the companions of Paradise, "Pour upon us some water, or from whatever Allah has provided you." They will say, "Indeed, Allah has forbidden them both to the disbelievers, those who took their religion as distraction and amusement and whom the worldly life deluded." So today We will forget them just as they forgot the meeting of this Day of theirs and for having rejected our verses." [Al-A'raf 7:50-51]

From the above it can be concluded that there is not a shadow of a doubt that we have been informed of our purpose, and were shown the way to achieve it, the choice is now ours.

Muhammad Kamil Ahmad
Madeenah, Saudi Arabia
3rd of March 2007

http://m-kamil-ahmad.blogspot.com/
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Pygoscelis
03-10-2007, 05:05 AM
The meaning of life is to give life meaning.
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alidagreat
03-10-2007, 06:31 AM
Dear Brother,

Allah has seventy thousand angels worshiping him all the time. His purpose for the creation of man was NOT just sole worship of him. Everything alive worships Allah. But Allah created mankind to acquire knowledge. He gave us a mind which is the most amazing gift known in this world. It differentiates us from animals and angels and jinn. Our main goal in life is to attain knowledge, WHILE worshiping our Creator who has given us this magnificent gift. We are the best creation because of the our minds, and our ability to learn and understand and think. One cannot worship Allah without knowledge of him and his creation and signs. To properly worship we must seek meaning and knowledge in all things, and worship our Lord and Creator who has bestowed us with the gift to REALIZE that their is no other God except Allah. La Sharika Lahu.

Allah does not want people to live in the masjid all day and worship him. That is not the purpose of man. Even in the athan. Haya al salat, haya al falat.
Prayer(worship) and Achievement.

These are the goals of and purpose of mankind.
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NoName55
03-10-2007, 09:30 PM
:sl:
| Home Page | Islam | Live Broadcast |
PURPOSE OF LIFE
What Does Islam Say About Life's Purpose?

_________________________________

Have you ever asked yourself these questions?
"What is the purpose of L I F E?"
"My life?"
"Your Life?"
People everywhere are asking the questions; "What is the purpose of life?" and "Why are we here?" You might be amazed to learn, that Islam is providing clear and concise answers for these questions.
Most of those who reflect or think about life in any detail will consider and ponder these questions. There are as many different answers to these questions as there are people asking the questions. Some would hold that the purpose of life was to acquire wealth. Yet suppose they were to acquire millions of dollars, what then would they claim is their purpose after doing so?

If the purpose of life is to become wealthy, there would be no purpose after becoming wealthy.

The fact is that when people approach their purpose here in this life from the aspect of only gaining wealth, after collecting the money they have dreamed of their lives loose purpose and then they live in restless tension suffering from a feeling of worthlessness.

How could wealth then be considered as the aim of life?

Could the acquisition of wealth guarantee happiness? Of course not.
When we hear of millionaires or members of their families committing suicide, how could we consider the purpose of life would be to gain great wealth?

A child of 5 years would obviously prefer a new toy to a deposit slip for a million dollars.
A teenager does not consider millions of dollars in the bank a substitute for movies, videos, pizza and hanging out with his friends.
A person in their 80s or 90s would never consider holding on to their wealth in place of spending it to hold on to or regain their health.

This proves that money is not the main purpose at all the stages of one's life.

Wealth can do little or nothing to bring happiness to one who is a disbeliever in Almighty God, because regardless of what he or she would gain in this life they would always live in fear of what will happen to them in the end. They would wonder what would become of them and how they would end up.

Wealth and its accumulation as a purpose would be doomed to a temporary success at best and in the end it would only spell out self destruction.

So, what is the use of wealth to a person without belief? He would always fear his end and would always be skeptical of everything. He may gain a great material wealth but he would only lose himself in the end.

Worship of the One True Almighty God of the Universe [Allah in Arabic] as a primary goal or aim in life provides a believer with everything he needs to succeed in both this life and the Next Life.

The word for total surrender, submission, obedience, purity of heart and peace in the Arabic language is "Islam". Those who try to perform these actions are called "MU-slims" [Islam-ERs].

To a Muslim the whole purpose of life is "ibadah" or worship to the One True Almighty God on Terms and under His Conditions.

The term "worship" to a Muslim includes any and all acts of obedience to Almighty Allah.

So his purpose of life is a standing purpose; Worshipping Allah by accepting Allah's Will over his own.
This act of ibadah [worshipping, thanking and extolling the Greatness Almighty Allah on His Terms and Conditions] is for the Muslim, throughout his whole life regardless of the stage. Whether he is a child, adolescent, adult or aged person, he is seeking after the Will of the Almighty in all these stages.
His life here on earth although short, is full of purpose and is totally meaningful within the complete framework of total submission [Islam].

Similarly, in the Next Life as well, his faith, intentions, attitudes and good deeds will all be weighed into his account as favorable putting him in high esteem with his Creator and Sustainer.

Because Islam teaches that this life is only a test or trial for the individual to show him his true nature it is only natural that he would accept death as not so much an ending to everything but more as a beginning of the final and lasting life in the Hereafter.

Before entering into either of the final lodging places i.e.; Heaven or Hell, there must needs be a Day of Judgment or showing of one's true self to make them aware of their own nature and thereby understand what they have sent on ahead during the life here on the earth.

Every person will be rewarded [or punished] according to their attitude, appreciation and efforts during this stay on earth. None will be asked about the actions and beliefs of others, nor will anyone be asked regarding that which he was unaware of or incapable of doing.

As the life here is considered as an examination for the individual, the death stage is considered as a resting period after the test. It could be easy for those who were faithful and dedicated or it could be grueling and horrible for the wicked.

Reward and punishment will be in direct proportion to each person and it is only Allah, alone who will be the Final Judge over us all.

So in the teachings of the True Surrender, Submission, Obedience, In Sincerity and Peace to the Almighty One God [Islam], the line of life and its purpose is logical, clear and simple:

The first life is a test

The life in the grave is a resting or waiting place before the Day of Judgment

The Day of Judgment brings about the clear understanding of what will now happen to the individual based on his own desires and actions

The Permanent or Afterlife will either be spend in luxurious splendor or miserable punishment .

Following this clear understanding of life, the Muslim's purpose is clear.

First of all, he has no doubt in his mind that:
he is only created by Allah
he is going to spend a period of time in this material world [called "Ad Dunyah" in Arabic]
he knows he will die
he knows he will spend time in the grave, either pleasant or difficult depending on his own choice of attitude and actions
he knows he will be resurrected for the Day of Judgment
he knows he will be judged according to the most fair of standards by Allah the Almighty, the All

Knowing he realizes his attitude and actions are going to come under very close scrutiny
he knows that this short life compared to the Eternal Life was in fact, only for a test

This life is very meaningful and purposeful to the Believing Muslim, as he realizes that it will determine is outcome and permanent position in the Next Life.

The Muslim's permanent purpose is to Surrender, Submit, Obey, in Purity and Peace to Allah the Almighty, carrying out His Orders and staying in some form of worship to Him as much as possible everyday.

This includes the orders of Allah in His Book, the Holy Quran and His final Messenger and Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him as follows:

Believing and declaring that "There is no god throughout all the Creation of Allah that is worthy of worship, all worship is due only to Allah, alone and He has no partners or helpers nor does He share His Lordship with any of His creations. And Muhammad, the son of Abdullah ibn Abdul Mutallib (1450 years ago) is the last and final messenger and servant of Almighty Allah, and is the culmination in a long line of prophets sent to mankind throughout man's history, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus Christ, may Almighty Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon them all."

Establishing the regular five times ritualistic prayer [salat] in the stated times (in the mosques for the men when possible)

Paying the charity tax [Zakat = about 2.5% of one's holdings - not his income, annually]

Fasting the month of Ramadhan [lunar calendar]

Pilgrimage to the House of Allah in Mecca at least once in the life of the person, provided he has the ability and the way is safe


For a disbeliever the purpose of this life is to collect and amass great wealth, money, power and position. Over indulging in eating, drinking, drugs, sex and gambling are a high priority to them. But all of this will not avail them anything good in the grave, on the Day of Judgment or in the Next Life. Eventually he will be faced with the question:
Now what?
What's Next?
Where am I going?
What will happen to me?

He will come to know. For sure he will come to know. But then what will the knowledge avail him?

Look how Islam solves the mystery of the puzzle of life. It provides the answers to the questions and concerns of the human beings on all levels and in every aspect. It is really quite simple.

The purpose of life as understood by the Believing Muslim can be simply stated in only two (2) words:
Obey God.

Our only purpose and salvation lie in these two words.

We must come to know our Creator, Sustainer and Ultimate Judge. We must learn to believe in Him, thank Him, praise Him, honor Him and worship Him, alone without any partners from His Creation. We must learn about His Messengers and Prophets, peace be upon them, and the message with which they were all sent. We must learn the Word of God as was directly revealed, preserved and memorized and passed down by memory throughout all the generations of Muslims to the present day.

Those who are in search of truth, having open minds and hearts will recognize this as a message in truth and sincerity. Open your heart and your mind now and ask the Almighty God of the Universe [Allah] to guide you now to His True Way. And then be ready to accept your true purpose in life.
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Muslim Knight
03-10-2007, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The meaning of life is to give life meaning.
What??!

That is as lame as saying, "A microprocessor is a processor that is small!"

Stupidest explanation my robotics lecturer can give.
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AbuAbdallah
03-10-2007, 11:34 PM
salaam,

These are the goals of and purpose of mankind.
2. "And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." [Adh-Dhariyat 51:56]
I think this pretty much destroys your whole argument.
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Pygoscelis
03-10-2007, 11:45 PM
The meaning of life IS to give life meaning. The purpose of life is the process of unravelling why you find it purposeful. Life is about the journey, not the destination.

A different point of view that yours perhaps, but "lame"? Well perhaps now that you've said that, I should follow your lead and tell you how lame I find your worldview? No, perhaps that wouldn't be cool.
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Muslim Knight
03-11-2007, 01:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The meaning of life IS to give life meaning. The purpose of life is the process of unravelling why you find it purposeful. Life is about the journey, not the destination.
Which is why Muslims & the adherents of other religions do not share atheistic view of life. All religions have belief in the somekind of afterlife, while atheists do not. Atheists believe after death there is nothing left, only blackness and one ceases to exist, which explains the need to "live life fully" and "enjoy to the maximum" because after death, they'd have nothing. For such blatant disregard for restrain, you'd get so many problems in life; STDs, broken heart, alcoholism, shaving one's head bald and the smashing other people's cars with an umbrella.

Muslims on the other hand, believe in the afterlife in which the consequences of this life will be felt afterwards. Do good, you get rewarded with Paradise. Do evil, you get punished with Hell. In short, do good deeds and don't do bad deeds (kicking cats is bad karma). Which is why the destination is more important to us Muslims, while the journey is the means to get good destination. It tells us that we are accountable for our own actions, so what better motivations for us to do good and avoid evil?

Muslims who do evil things, harm other people or commit suicide have not yet understood fully their religion, which prescribes to them the exact purpose of this life; worship only Allah, follow His commands, do good deeds and avoid evil-doing.
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alidagreat
03-11-2007, 05:49 AM
Dear Brothers,

Worshiping Allah is NOT the sole purpose of mankind. It is the MOST IMPORTANT but it is not the sole purpose. If this was the case and worshiping him was the sole purpose of mankind, then every Muslim would be poor, not educate themselves, sit in a Mosque all day, and try to come up with ways to kill people who are not Muslims.

Oh wait...that is happening in the present day and age.

Whoever responded to my post telling me that the one verse he posted broke my argument, please read the hadith, the biographies of all the other prophets, and the entire Qu'ran again. Educate yourself, and worship your God.

Learn your religion, and TEACH it to people. Man must gain knowledge and spread it to other humans. This is why Allah gave us our mind. From the beginning of time. He asked Adam to TEACH the angels, from what he LEARNED from Allah.

Don't be naive and try to simplify the complexity of Allah's creation. You are not only disrespecting Allah's greatest creation, but also all the power and greatness of the Holy Qu'ran and Prophet Muhammed (SAW). Why do you think Islam came so strongly to the Arab Nation, and how people knew it was the word of God when a 40 year old illiterate recited the most Glorious words man has ever seen.

THINK! WORSHIP! THINK! WORSHIP! THINK! THINK! THINK!

Seriously...think before you speak. Be a better Muslim and use the brain that Allah has given you.
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AbuAbdallah
03-11-2007, 11:38 AM
salaam,

Worshiping Allah is NOT the sole purpose of mankind.
"And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship me."
How do you define except in this verse?

If this was the case and worshiping him was the sole purpose of mankind, then every Muslim would be poor, not educate themselves, sit in a Mosque all day, and try to come up with ways to kill people who are not Muslims.
This statement is incorrect. When someone is working to provide for their family, that in fact is an act of worship. When a person seeks knowledge, that in fact is an act of worship. If a person corrects their intention, then they can make every single act they do an act of worship. For example, if before you sleep you have the intention of getting rest so that you may be able to do certain acts of worship, then that sleep will be considered an act of worship.
Learn your religion, and TEACH it to people. Man must gain knowledge and spread it to other humans.
I agree. Learning, and teaching knowledge both fall under acts of worship.

This is why Allah gave us our mind. From the beginning of time. He asked Adam to TEACH the angels, from what he LEARNED from Allah.
This is true, but it doesn't prove that it was the purpose of our creation.

Seriously...think before you speak. Be a better Muslim and use the brain that Allah has given you.
Jazak Allahu khair for the advice.
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Trumble
03-11-2007, 01:20 PM
Outside of a creationist perspective, there is no requirement for our existence to have a 'purpose' at all. It just 'is'. I'm not sure why that isn't sufficient; people would be a lot happier if they just recognised that fact and accept things as-is rather than forever chasing some ultimate 'purpose' in the same way kids think they could chase the end of a rainbow.
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Pygoscelis
03-11-2007, 01:47 PM
Someday they'll find it. The rainbow connection. The lovers. The dreamers. And me. All of us under its spell. They say that its probably magic.
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Trumble
03-11-2007, 03:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Someday they'll find it. The rainbow connection. The lovers. The dreamers. And me. All of us under its spell. They say that its probably magic.
The point, though, is that when you find it you realize it was there all along. Sometimes the best way to find something is not to look for it.
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wilberhum
03-11-2007, 05:28 PM
What Pygoscelis said is Lame? :?
I thought it was an excellent piece of wisdom.
What seams lame to me is to cripple life with endless worthless rituals and life altering restrictions.
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alidagreat
03-11-2007, 10:06 PM
This is true, but it doesn't prove that it was the purpose of our creation

What differentiates mankind from jinn and angels? The mind and the ability to learn and think.

How does this not prove that the purpose of our creation was to gain knowledge? It seems like a very blatant concept.

I agree with working, and studying, and self betterment being acts of worship. But those aren't the exact same acts of worship as sitting in a mosque and praying all day.

We are Allah's greatest creation because of our minds. Why do we hide from this, and only try to say our purpose is to worship Allah? As mankind we are better than angels, and the jinn. Allah has told us so. Why do we degrade the power of acquiring knowledge and the mind, to the simple fact that we were created to worship.

Your argument is a very weak argument. You take the Qu'ran out of context and forget to include the ayats which talk about learning, and acquiring knowledge.

What about the Golden age of Islam, when tremendous discoveries were made in the fields of astronomy, science, and mathematics. Do we simply classify man as a worshiper only. Or should we classify man as the greatest of all creations from the ONE and ONLY CREATOR. You are insulting our creation as humans by characterizing the one and only goal of worship, such as jinn and angels.

The most important thing that you should remember is that without knowledge we would not be able to worship Allah. Why would Allah send down the Torah, Injil, and the Qu'ran if we didn't have the knowledge and ability to read and understand? The mind allows us to choose the path to Allah. We cannot worship without knowledge of what we are worshiping. That is why God sent his guidance and knowledge upon us! Our purpose is to worship Allah, but tell me...how do we get there without acquiring knowledge and information about what Allah wants us to do?

I await your well thought out response.
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Maidah
03-11-2007, 10:29 PM
[QUOTE=alidagreat;681092]Dear Brothers,

Worshiping Allah is NOT the sole purpose of mankind. It is the MOST IMPORTANT but it is not the sole purpose. If this was the case and worshiping him was the sole purpose of mankind, then every Muslim would be poor, not educate themselves, sit in a Mosque all day, and try to come up with ways to kill people who are not Muslims.

Oh wait...that is happening in the present day and age.


According to you if worshipping Allah is not our sole purpose then what is?
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AbuAbdallah
03-11-2007, 10:56 PM
What differentiates mankind from jinn and angels? The mind and the ability to learn and think.
This statement is incorrect. Jinns have these abilities as well.
I agree with working, and studying, and self betterment being acts of worship. But those aren't the exact same acts of worship as sitting in a mosque and praying all day.
No one said it was.

We are Allah's greatest creation because of our minds. Why do we hide from this, and only try to say our purpose is to worship Allah?
Because this is what Allah teaches us.

As mankind we are better than angels, and the jinn. Allah has told us so.
Show me any verse or hadeeth where it says we are better than Angels.

Why do we degrade the power of acquiring knowledge and the mind, to the simple fact that we were created to worship.
If acquiring knowledge is an act of worship, then how is it being degraded to an act of worship?

You take the Qu'ran out of context and forget to include the ayats which talk about learning, and acquiring knowledge.
Worshiping Allah and acquiring knowledge are the same thing if done with the right intentions. This is the point I have been trying to make, if you can agree with me on this, then there is nothing to disagree about.
I really hope you can understand my point that I am trying to make here.
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alidagreat
03-12-2007, 08:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
This statement is incorrect. Jinns have these abilities as well.

Jinn have the ability to think, but they cannot think as critically as humans. They have minds equivalent to small children. Very different than the mind Allah has bestowed upon mankind.


The first thing revealed in the Qu'ran in the Surat Al Baqarah about Adam was that he LEARNED what Allah told him, and TAUGHT it to the angels. He did not bow, he did not worship, he did not pray. He did what Allah commanded him to do. If you think VERY VERY HARD about this...this shows us that the very first purpose and reason for the creation of Adam was not to worship Allah at that time, it was to LEARN from Allah, and TEACH the angels what he learned. It can't be written out any clearer than this.

Angels are slaves. They don't think, they don't disagree, they do not choose. They do not have the power of free will, and therefore they are not as great of a creation as mankind. Allah shows the angels their ignorance when he allowed Adam to TEACH them things they did not know. The angels are slaves of Allah. We were created in a similar form of Allah, and he has given us the power to disobey him, and to obey him. How much better of a creation can we be???

If acquiring knowledge is an act of worship, then how is it being degraded to an act of worship?

You cannot compare nuclear physics to praying the Isha. The prayer is most important, but nuclear physics and engineering is one of mans greatest accomplishments. Anyone can pray, not everyone can be a genius. By comparing them, you are taking away people's life work and comparing it to a 5 year old trying pray.


Worshiping Allah and acquiring knowledge are the same thing if done with the right intentions. This is the point I have been trying to make, if you can agree with me on this, then there is nothing to disagree about.
I really hope you can understand my point that I am trying to make here.
I agree they are the same thing...I don't agree that Worship is the one and only reason why we were created. If we look more critically what comes before worship....CHOICE.

Think about the concept more critically. Ultimately we have to worship Allah, but how do we get there...acquiring knowledge and learning. How do we acquire knowledge and learn? We CHOOSE to acquire knowledge and learn.

Let me know if we can agree on this.
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zoro
03-12-2007, 01:05 PM
I agree with earlier posters that asking about “the purpose of life” is (in my words) a poorly phrased question: as far as is known, only life has a purpose (namely, to continue living). In contrast and as far as is known, rocks, for example, don’t have any “purpose” (save what some human might choose to ascribe to them). Consequently, as I describe in some detail in my online book at http://zenofzero.net in a chapter entitled “the Purpose of Life”, asking about “the purpose of life” is asking about “the purpose of the purpose”.

I also agree with the suggestion that any omnipotent and omniscient god couldn’t have a purpose (including any purpose for people), since any claim to the contrary would be not only inconsistent with the meanings of ‘omnipotence’ and ‘omniscience’ but also extremely insulting (to suggest that such a god would still have some unfulfilled desires, e.g., to have humans “worship” him or her or it). Further, the analogy to a father wanting what’s best for his children is inappropriate, since again and unlike fathers, an omnipotent and omniscience god can’t have any “wants”. We humans, in contrast, have many unfulfilled desires.

One of our many unfulfilled desires is “to know”, and I agree with “alidagreat” that the first step toward “knowledge and learning” is “choice”: “We CHOOSE to acquire knowledge and learn.” Where I might be able to usefully add something to the discussion is to point out that the next choice, after choosing “to acquire knowledge and learn”, is the choice about HOW to gain knowledge.

Certainly, each of us has substantial “intuitive” and “instinctive” knowledge (e.g., to eat when we’re hungry, to get warm when we’re cold, to keep our vital organs going, etc.), but in addition, with minds more advanced than other animals, we are faced with the choice about how to gain knowledge about the reality that most of us assume exists external to our minds.

Many options are available to try to gain such knowledge about reality. Among these options are: “to listen to your heart” (i.e., be governed by your emotions, which is one form of the “proof-by-pleasure fallacy”), “to abide by (some) authority” (whatever that “authority” might be, including parents, teachers, various books, various “experts”, and so on), or “to let experience be your guide” – which is the essence of the scientific method, whose history can of course be traced back to the earliest humans, through the Ancient Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks and others, but reached a pivotal point in the history of the world when the Muslim scientist Alhacen (Ibn al-Hitham, 965 – 1040) published his Book on Optics, summarizing his experiments performed while he was in prison for more than a decade.

Among the many choices for gaining knowledge, only one seems to be “self reinforcing”. Thus, if you choose to “listen to your heart”, you can become quite disappointed in the consequences; if you choose to “abide by some authority”, again you can become very disappointed with acting on the advice you received; but if you “let experience be your guide”, then experience shows (!) that generally you gain additional knowledge.

I therefore question if “alidagreat” can usefully communicate with “AbuAbdallah”, since they’ve apparently made different choices about how to gain knowledge. Thus, for example, by commenting on the “abilities” of “Jinns” and on “what Allah teaches us”, “AbuAbdallah” has chosen to gain “knowledge” based on some authority (other than experience). People can similarly argue endlessly about “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin”, but if nobody can count them, if no one can perform experiments to gain the knowledge, then all such discussions are a waste of every one’s time – or worse, since experience has shown that arguments over such nonsense can lead to violence, even to war.

It would then seem that it would help humanity (which most people seem to agree is a worthwhile goal for humans) if more people followed Alhacen’s lead to choose to seek knowledge via the scientific method. That is, surely an intelligent choice for “the purpose of humans” is to expand knowledge via the scientific method, thereby to try to help an intelligent species to become even more intelligent. In contrast, experience has shown that relying on any “authority” (other than experience) drags humanity backwards, typically to the advantage of only those “in authority”.

And unfortunately, it seems to be the case that the clerics of the world (regardless of their religion) are the primary ones who claim such “authority” – and who profit from the people’s continued ignorance. It therefore seems that the clerics of the world are the prime enemies of knowledge, of intelligence, and therefore, of humanity. And although, surely someday, laws will be promulgated against promoting such ignorance (as all clerics espouse), surely a fist useful step would be to change our customs, to no longer grant any cleric respect for blabbering nonsense, i.e., ideas that can’t be tested via the scientific method.
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alidagreat
03-12-2007, 01:42 PM
So if the purpose of life is too continue life, then you are basically telling me that there is no hope, no future for anything better than what i can achieve in this world. Why would i throw away the belief in a higher power and in heaven and paradise...just to sustain life on earth.

This argument makes no sense to me. Mankind will NEVER NEVER be able to quantify life. It is impossible. Scientists till this day do not know the special chemicals, biologies, or matter that differentiates a dead person from a living.

My source of knowledge is the Qu'ran. That is where my knowledge is derived from. I use that knowledge to live my life as best as i can while i am on earth. In the Qu'ran is plenty of scientific truths that man has ONLY found true by using science. Where else do i need to derive my knowledge base from?

In contrast, experience has shown that relying on any “authority” (other than experience) drags humanity backwards, typically to the advantage of only those “in authority”.


How does this quote explain the Golden age of Islam, where people where very religious and worshiped a higher authority, and still continued to advance greatly in the fields of medicine, science, math, and astronomy. Your argument is completely void regarding this subject.

Religion is the ultimate insurance for your life. When i die, i have chosen the insurance plan which makes the most sense for me. When you die my agnostic friend, it seems that you have no insurance to carry with you, IN THE EVENT that there are angels and jinn, and a higher authority which we were all derived from.

If i were to gain knowledge and use it, don't you think the most important thing i would want to know and learn about would be what happens after i die, since it is an inevitability and everyone must?

WORSHP! THINK! WORSHIP! THINK!
All the same things...cannot have one without the other.
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zoro
03-12-2007, 04:36 PM
So if the purpose of life is too continue life, then you are basically telling me that there is no hope, no future for anything better than what i can achieve in this world.
Well, I certainly wouldn’t say “no hope”! I hope, for example, that you will hope to help humanity, by your achievements (e.g., defeat the next killer virus, stop an asteroid from hitting the earth, or less dramatically, how about a song or a poem that people will appreciate).

Why would i throw away the belief in a higher power and in heaven and paradise...just to sustain life on earth.
Well I would put it differently: what evidence supports such a “belief”? Do you “believe” it’s so because your parent and your society told you that you’d be “good” if you did and “bad” if you didn’t believe such nonsense? Do you “believe” it because you want to believe it, i.e., did you succumb to the “proof-by-pleasure fallacy”? Or do you “believe” it because you’ve tested the idea using the scientific method?

This argument makes no sense to me. Mankind will NEVER NEVER be able to quantify life. It is impossible. Scientists till this day do not know the special chemicals, biologies, or matter that differentiates a dead person from a living.
I agree: your argument also makes no sense to me. I have no difficulty in distinguishing life from death. Do you?

My source of knowledge is the Qu'ran. That is where my knowledge is derived from.
And your definition of “knowledge” is what? Does such "knowledge" lead to testable predictions about reality? Have the tests been validated?

I use that knowledge to live my life as best as i can while i am on earth.
Well, no: I’d suggest that you “try” to live your life as best you can; I would also suggest that you could do even better if you sought knowledge via the scientific method.

In the Qu'ran is plenty of scientific truths that man has ONLY found true by using science.
Well, sorry to be “a stickler”, but in reality, in science we recognize nothing as “the truth”, since “truth” is applicable to what are called “closed systems” (such a games, pure mathematics, and religions). In science, which deals with what are called “open systems” (e.g., reality), we call results “principles”, not “truths”, if they have not yet been demonstrated to be wrong.

Where else do i need to derive my knowledge base from?
From the scientific method.

How does this quote [dealing with relying on authority] explain the Golden age of Islam, where people where very religious and worshiped a higher authority, and still continued to advance greatly in the fields of medicine, science, math, and astronomy. Your argument is completely void regarding this subject.
No, not so. Just as occurred subsequently during Europe’s Dark Ages, a few brave people (such as Ibn al-Hitham and subsequently, in Europe, Roger Bacon, Galileo, etc.) refused to accept the authority of the clerics, and knowledge advanced – in spite of their imprisonment by the clerics and in spite of the superstitions of the vast majority of the people. Thus, as is unfortunately so common, just a few people deserve essentially all the credit for dragging humanity forward, out of the clutches of the ignorant clerics.

Religion is the ultimate insurance for your life.
Well, I think that more descriptive would be to call it “the ultimate con game”.

When i die, i have chosen the insurance plan which makes the most sense for me. When you die my agnostic friend, it seems that you have no insurance to carry with you, IN THE EVENT that there are angels and jinn, and a higher authority which we were all derived from.
Well, I don’t know about that: I had a chat with your god the other day, and he said that it was really boring in eternity and he wanted to find a few good people who could bring something new to the table. So, he sent all the confusing messages down in all the “holy books” to see who, in their greed for getting something that they don’t deserve, would be conned into “believing” nonsense about “eternal life” just for saying that they “believe” in it. He said that it was an easy way to separate the wheat from the chaff – which I mention, solely to illustrate that it’s much easier to generate a con game then it is to generate knowledge.

If i were to gain knowledge and use it, don't you think the most important thing i would want to know and learn about would be what happens after i die, since it is an inevitability and everyone must?
Well, if you would use the scientific method to gain knowledge, then you’d find that all evidence points to the obvious conclusion that when you die, you’re dead. Yet, if you can contribute something useful while you’re alive (as did Alhacen, Bacon, Galileo,…), then your ideas and the memory of you can live on. On the other hand, if you’re just another “parrot on a dead branch of knowledge, endlessly squawking the same old lines”, then expect that your memory, too, will disappear soon after you lose your life.
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alidagreat
03-12-2007, 08:28 PM
Well I would put it differently: what evidence supports such a “belief”? Do you “believe” it’s so because your parent and your society told you that you’d be “good” if you did and “bad” if you didn’t believe such nonsense? Do you “believe” it because you want to believe it, i.e., did you succumb to the “proof-by-pleasure fallacy”? Or do you “believe” it because you’ve tested the idea using the scientific method?
I believe this because it is the word of God. Why do i believe it? Why not believe it? What am i losing? Why did Jesus, Adam, Moses, and all the other prophets come down and preach a message about a higher power. Were they all crazy in the head? Why do people believe in love, and hate? Can you prove love and hate by the scientific method? Can you test love and hate using the scientific method? I don't think so. People still believe in it. So your entire argument is built upon fallacy.


I agree: your argument also makes no sense to me. I have no difficulty in distinguishing life from death. Do you?
Can you quantify the human soul? Do you believe in the human soul? Can you quantify life as breathing and using the bathroom? I mean seriously you are being naive and ignorant. Tell me in the scientific method the difference between life and death. I wait your scientific response.


And your definition of “knowledge” is what? Does such "knowledge" lead to testable predictions about reality? Have the tests been validated?

The Qu'ran has been validated. The embryonic stages of human developed are revealed in the Qu'ran and were recently proven USING THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD. Also...the meteor that is said to have destroyed the dinosaurs, and the deepest place on Earth is revealed in the Qu'ran and has been proven and shown to be truth as we know to this day from the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

Well, I think that more descriptive would be to call it “the ultimate con game”.
Hey man, believe what you want. No one is forcing you to believe in God or to be a Christian or a Muslim. I don't care if you insult my belief. I only care about what Allah thinks. Not you, or your infatuation with the scientific method.


Well, if you would use the scientific method to gain knowledge, then you’d find that all evidence points to the obvious conclusion that when you die, you’re dead. Yet, if you can contribute something useful while you’re alive (as did Alhacen, Bacon, Galileo,…), then your ideas and the memory of you can live on. On the other hand, if you’re just another “parrot on a dead branch of knowledge, endlessly squawking the same old lines”, then expect that your memory, too, will disappear soon after you lose your life.[/QUOTE]

Hahaha this is so horrible. I feel bad that you only believe in science. I wish that you could have more to live for in life. I am sorry that your life ends when you die. I really do. I hope I am right in what i believe, and I hope that you are wrong in what you believe.

I don't have anything against, I don't even dislike you. I just pity and feel bad that you only believe in things that you can touch or see.
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Pygoscelis
03-12-2007, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alidagreat
Religion is the ultimate insurance for your life. When i die, i have chosen the insurance plan which makes the most sense for me. When you die my agnostic friend, it seems that you have no insurance to carry with you, IN THE EVENT that there are angels and jinn, and a higher authority which we were all derived from.
Good old Pascal's wager. Will the falacy ever die? Consider that you may be worshiping the wrong God and consider that the real God may be more displeased with you worshiping a false God than worshiping none at all. Also consider whether it truly makes any sense to believe in something because of a punishment/reward dynamic and wether that belief will be seen as genuine.
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aamirsaab
03-12-2007, 08:40 PM
:sl:

.......Also consider whether it truly makes any sense to believe in something because of a punishment/reward dynamic and wether that belief will be seen as genuine.
With all due respect, that is how humans at all levels operate. :D

my views on the topic: I think that each of us have our own role to play in this world - some may have 100 things to do, some may only have 1 thing to do. The importance, however, lies in living and achieving your own goals, whatever it may be. So in essence, we each have an individual purpose to our existence in addition to wider purposes.
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Umm Yoosuf
03-12-2007, 09:12 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaahi wa Barakatuh Br Ali

I understand where you're coming from Akhi. Indeed Knowledge proceeds before action. One cannot pray if he hasn't sought knowledge, one can not perform Hajj if hasn't studied how to etc nevertheless our purpose of Life IS to worship Allah, alone. This worship is done with knowledge indeed! But what is 'ibadah (worship)? It is not merely sitting in the masjid 24/7 praying, it is seclusion of oneself, and not interacting with anyone whatsoever!

Worship is a comprehensive word for all that Allah loves and is pleases with from words and deeds, open and hidden. And it is being free from that which negates or contradicts this. (Sheikh Al-Taymeeyyah ).

The first thing that is obligatory upon the slave is the recognition of the purpose for which Allah created them, too a covenant from them, sent His Prophets and Messengers to them, and revealed His Books to them. Because of it, the worldly life and the hereafter were created. Because of it the “Inevitable” will come true and the “Event” will come to pass. Because of it, the scale will be set up and the scrolls of deeds will be scattered about. In it (this first obligation to be known) is either sadness or happiness, and according to it the lights will be divided. “And whomsoever Allah does not give light to, there will be no light for him.” (The signposts of the Propagated Sunnah- Sheikh Haafidh ibn Ahmed 'Alee al-Hakamee)

So the affair for which Allah created the creation is as said in the Quran:

"Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding. Those who remember Allah while standing or sitting or lying on their sides, and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, saying, "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly, exalted are You, protect us from the punishment of the Fire." [Aal 'Imran 3:190-191]

"And We did not create the heaven and the earth and that which is between them aimlessly. That is the assumption of those who disbelieve, so woe to those who disbelieve from the Fire." [Saa'd 38:27]

"And We did not create the heavens and the earth and that which is between them in play." [Ad-Dukhan 44:38]


"And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." [Adh-Dhariyat 51:56]
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zoro
03-12-2007, 11:06 PM
Response to “alidagreat” (#22):

I believe this because it is the word of God.
And what evidence is available to support your contention that “it is the word of God” – or evidence, even, that any god exists?

Why do i believe it? Why not believe it?
For the same reason that you don’t believe (I expect) that all invisible flying elephants are pink, namely, no evidence supports such an idea.

What am i losing?
Oh, a huge amount: basically, control over your own life; you’ve yielded it to those who have gained control of your imagination.

Why did Jesus, Adam, Moses, and all the other prophets come down and preach a message about a higher power. Were they all crazy in the head?
Well, evidence suggests that the three of them are mostly just fictitious characters. Jesus is mostly a fictitious character concocted to depict the start of the astrological age of Pisces (the fish); Adam is certainly a fictitious character, concocted by the Ancient Egyptians, and Moses seems to be mostly a story about the constellation Orion the Hunter, concocted by Ezra and co-authors of the Old Testaments who were trying to convert the Hebrews to the Persian religion of Zoroaster. As for why they were concocted: basically, it’s because, long ago, people were so unknowledgeable that they thought that gods exist.

Why do people believe in love, and hate?
That’s strange wording. Do you mean why do people love and (or) hate? Surely you don’t need an explanation. Just ask yourself why you love some things (or people) and hate others.

Can you prove love and hate by the scientific method? Can you test love and hate using the scientific method? I don't think so. People still believe in it. *So your entire argument is built upon fallacy.*
Good heavens, what silliness. You stated “I don’t think so.” I’m not sure the word “so” belongs.

Can you quantify the human soul?
No – and therefore it seems reasonable to conclude that “soul” (in the religious sense of the word) is meaningless.

Do you believe in the human soul?
My “belief” (or opinion or strength of my conviction) about any idea depends on the evidence available to support it, and since (as far as I’m aware) there’s zero evidence to support the idea of “soul” (in the religious sense), therefore my opinion about the idea of “soul” is that it’s left over from prehistoric ideas trying to explain people’s shadows, reflections (e.g., in pools of water), and dreams, and now used as another part of the clerics’ con games, designed to make sure that they won’t need to do any work for a living (so they can just live off the producers of the world, like parasites).

Can you quantify life as breathing and using the bathroom? I mean seriously you are being naive and ignorant. Tell me in the scientific method the difference between life and death. I wait your scientific response.
Well, as Feynman said, the scientific method is just a way to try to make sure that you’re not fooling yourself. Applied in the case you mention, the way we used the scientific method when we were kids was use a (long) stick, e.g., to determine if a snake were dead or alive or if there were any hornets in a nest: if, upon using the stick, the snake moved or the hornets swarmed, then we adopted the hypothesis that life was present. Similar seems to work with people. Thus, I conclude that you’re alive, for as the second American President (John Adams) said: “…touch a solemn truth in collision with the dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes.”

The Qu'ran has been validated. The embryonic stages of human developed are revealed in the Qu'ran and were recently proven USING THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD. Also...the meteor that is said to have destroyed the dinosaurs, and the deepest place on Earth is revealed in the Qu'ran and has been proven and shown to be truth as we know to this day from the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.
Good heavens! I conclude that you don’t have a clue about what either “validated” or “the scientific method” means. Let me put it this way, if I state that all invisible flying elephants are pink, then to apply the scientific method to test the validity of my statement, you’ll need to do more than demonstrate that elephants exist, that they can be painted pink, and flown away in a Boeing 747 until they’re no longer visible.

Hey man, believe what you want. No one is forcing you to believe in God or to be a Christian or a Muslim.
Agreed. Thus, fortunately in Western countries, humans have managed to make some progress, constraining the clerics: no longer are they permitted to kill people who refuse to buy into their con games. But apparently in many Muslim countries, it’s still “death to the infidels”.

I don't care if you insult my belief.
I’m glad -- although it's not so much your "belief" that I'm criticizing as your method of "believing" things supported by zero evidence.

I only care about what Allah thinks.
You mean: what you think that he thinks.

Not you, or your infatuation with the scientific method.
Well, it’s a pity that we don’t all care more about fellow humans than we do about imaginary gods. And as for my “infatuation with the scientific method”: Hey, it works! Witness the internet and the computer you’re working on. On the other hand, if the scientific method stops working, then I’ll junk it.

Hahaha this is so horrible.
Hmmm. It seems strange that you’d laugh at something that you describe as “horrible”.

I feel bad that you only believe in science.
As I already mentioned, I try to align the strength of my convictions in proportion to relevant evidence. Substantial evidence suggests that the scientific method is a way to try to make sure you’re not fooling yourself. Perhaps you’d like to give it a try.

I wish that you could have more to live for in life.
Thank you for the kind thought, but there’s no need to worry on my behalf: I love the life that I have!

I am sorry that your life ends when you die. I really do. I hope I am right in what i believe, and I hope that you are wrong in what you believe.
Again, thank you for the kind thoughts, but don’t worry about my death on my behalf (and I’d encourage you to similarly not worry about your own death), since no one can be aware of a lack of awareness. We die and disappear to make room for the next generation – who, I hope, will be more intelligent than the current occupants of this wonderful world.
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alidagreat
03-13-2007, 06:34 AM
I just have one question for you. I urge you to come up with an intelligent answer using your scientific method, and all the information and knowledge you have gathered from your existence on earth.

If there is a GOD, and an afterlife, and a heaven and a hell. What will you do when you are resurrected? What will you say about no life after death, and your thoughts about their not being a higher power or authority?

Just answer the question as IF what I am saying is true. Just want to hear what you have to say.
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Pygoscelis
03-13-2007, 09:57 AM
If I'm resurected after death I'll be quite amazed. And If there are Gods I'll be doubly amazed and I'll look forward to chatting with them should they grant me an audience.
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zoro
03-13-2007, 01:42 PM
Response to “alidagreat”:
I just have one question for you. I urge you to come up with an intelligent answer using your scientific method, and all the information and knowledge you have gathered from your existence on earth.

If there is a GOD, and an afterlife, and a heaven and a hell. What will you do when you are resurrected? What will you say about no life after death, and your thoughts about their not being a higher power or authority?
Okay. As you requested, I’ll assume that what you describe is accurate. Then, upon being resurrected, I expect that, first, I’d respond with words that my grandchildren like to use: “Wow! Neato!” I’d then probably add something similar to: “Well I’ll be! Goes to show that people make errors. But then, no data were available. I did my best with what the data I had.”

Then, after I got my bearings, caught the general drift of the place, I’d try to find the resurrected forms of some of my heroes, the great atheists, agnostics, humanists, and scientists of the past, including Sin-leqe-unnini, Homer, Aesop, Lao-tzu, Confucius, Buddha, Xenophanes, Heraclitus, Pindar, Anaxagoras, Socrates, Aristotle, Diogenes, Epicurus, Hypatia, Archimedes, Marcus Aurelius, Ibn al-Hitham, Omar Khayyam,… and so many more (!), of course including Spinoza, Locke, Goethe, Paine, Jefferson, Lincoln, Susan Anthony, Ingersoll, Emmy Noether, Einstein, Anne Rand, Dirac, Eric Hoffer, Alan Watts, Feynman,… and so many others (including, if they got there before me!), Paul Kurtz, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Ed Wilson, and so many more!

Just think about being in the company of such people! Think about being able to learn more! Think about talking with Sin-leqe-unnini (“the world’s first author”, author of the most familiar form of the Epic of Gilgamesh, which contains the myth about Noah, which more than 1,000 years later was copied into the Bible). Approximately 3,600 years ago, he wrote
…we frail humans die as you yourself must someday do. What is best for us to do is now to sing and dance; relish warm food and cool drinks; cherish children to whom your love gives life; bathe easily in sweet, refreshing waters; [and] play joyfully with your chosen wife. It is the will of the gods for you to smile on simple pleasures in the leisure time of your short days… Choose to live and choose to love; choose to rise above and give back what you yourself were given. Be moderate as you flee for survival in a boat that has no place for riches.
Remember, too, what Socrates said at his trial (on the trumped-up charges against him by the ****able Greek clerics, leading to his execution):
Let us reflect in another way, and we shall see that there is great reason to hope that death is a good, for one of two things: either death is a state of nothingness and utter unconsciousness, or, as men say, there is a change and migration of the soul from this world to another. Now if you suppose that there is no consciousness, but a sleep like the sleep of him who is undisturbed even by the sight of dreams, death will be an unspeakable gain. For if a person were to select the night in which his sleep was undisturbed even by dreams, and were to compare with this the other days and nights of his life, and then were to tell us how many days and nights he had passed in the course of his life better and more pleasantly than this one, I think that any man, I will not say a private man, but even the great king, will not find many such days or nights, when compared with the others. Now if death is like this, I say that to die is gain; for eternity is then only a single night.

But if death is the journey to another place, and there, as men say, all the dead are, what good, O my friends and judges, can be greater than this? If indeed when the pilgrim arrives in the world below, he is delivered from the professors of justice in this world, and finds the true judges who are said to give judgment there, Minos and Rhadamanthus and Aeacus and Triptolemus, and other sons of God who were righteous in their own life, that pilgrimage will be worth making. What would not a man give if he might converse with Orpheus and Musaeus and Hesiod and Homer? Nay, if this be true, let me die again and again! I, too, shall have a wonderful interest in a place where I can converse with Palamedes, and Ajax the son of Telamon, and other heroes of old, who have suffered death through an unjust judgment; and there will be no small pleasure, as I think, in comparing my own sufferings with theirs. Above all, I shall be able to continue my search into true and false knowledge; as in this world, so also in that; I shall find out who is wise, and who pretends to be wise, and is not. What would not a man give, O judges, to be able to examine the leader of the great Trojan expedition; or Odysseus or Sisyphus, or numberless others, men and women too! What infinite delight would there be in conversing with them and asking them questions! For in that world they do not put a man to death for this; certainly not. For besides being happier in that world than in this, they will be immortal, if what is said is true.

Wherefore, O judges, be of good cheer about death, and know this of a truth – that no evil can happen to a good man, either in life or after death. He and his are not neglected by the gods; nor has my own approaching end happened by mere chance.
Well, I could go on and on – as obviously I did, in my huge (but free!) online book at www.zenofzero.net – but maybe I’ve shown you enough for you to “catch my drift”. Yet, I can’t quit without recalling what “Ingersoll the Magnificent” (the magnificent atheist) wrote – and I’d seek him out, where ever he was (probably sitting on a throne, somewhere, having a beer, looking after the place while God was on sabbatical in another universe!):
When I became convinced that the Universe is natural – that all the ghosts and gods are myths – there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light, and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world – not even in infinite space.

I was free: free to think, to express my thoughts – free to live to my own ideal – free to live for myself and those I loved – free to use all my faculties, all my senses – free to spread imagination’s wings – free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope – free to judge and determine for myself – free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the “inspired” books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of the past – free from popes and priests – free from all the “called” and “set apart” – free from sanctified mistakes and holy lies – free from the fear of eternal pain – free from the winged monsters of night – free from devils, ghosts, and gods.

For the first time I was free. There were no prohibited places in all the realms of my thought – no air, no space, where fancy could not spread her painted wings – no chains for my limbs – no lashes for my back – no fires for my flesh – no master’s frown or threat – no following another’s steps – no need to bow, or cringe, or crawl, or utter lying words.

I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously, faced all worlds. And then my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heroes, the thinkers who gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought – to those who fell on the fierce fields of war – to those who died in dungeons bound with chains – to those who proudly mounted scaffold’s stairs – to those whose bones were crushed, whose flesh was scarred and torn – to those by fire consumed – to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land, whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And I vowed to grasp the torch that they had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer darkness still.
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Skavau
03-13-2007, 05:47 PM
The meaning of life is to live it fully. I do not recognise ritualism that any religious system provides. I do not see any necessity to worship Allah, should that being exist or not - I see my position, as human to live as a human - working from where I am to assist humanity.

The problem is that a lot of Muslims on here only recognise the purpose of life from their viewpoint. I see that an article posted on Page 1 here, by NoName55 focuses on the assumption that everyone values accumulation of money (which I don't) and assumes that everyone will achieve everything they wish to (I honestly doubt such).

I mean, look at this swooping generalisation:

For a disbeliever the purpose of this life is to collect and amass great wealth, money, power and position. Over indulging in eating, drinking, drugs, sex and gambling are a high priority to them. But all of this will not avail them anything good in the grave, on the Day of Judgment or in the Next Life. Eventually he will be faced with the question:
I only value wealth in that if I wish to purchase something, I can afford it. I would never wish a ludicrious amount of money. I don't want power, too much responsibility. I don't drink, take drugs or gamble. In fact - most people do not take drugs or gamble and this article assumes that for all disbelievers, these are "high priorities". That's a load of nonsense.

Look how Islam solves the mystery of the puzzle of life. It provides the answers to the questions and concerns of the human beings on all levels and in every aspect. It is really quite simple.
None of the above in that article solved the puzzle of life. I see the purpose of humanity as being beyond the worship of a diety, or the adherence of a particular belief system.

NoName5, that article makes unproven statements about disbelievers and assumes that without belief in Islam, everyone's purpose in life is to become insanely rich. It uses religious language in order to justify why an individual should be Islamic which means nothing to me, and I doubt - to any other nonbelievers.
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zoro
03-14-2007, 01:29 PM
Well, paarsurrey, as I argued earlier in this thread, one’s purpose depends on one’s premisses. For example, if you assume that some god exists, then for your purpose (or purposes), something similar to what you quote follows (with details differing, depending on whether you were exposed to Hindu, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Mormon, or some other culture). In contrast, if you conclude that there’s insufficient evidence to support the idea that any god exists, then you’ll choose a different purpose (or purposes).

If you think about it more, I expect that you’ll agree that there’s an even more fundamental premiss (than “belief” in god) that you MUST make. In my opinion, it’s even more fundamental than whether any gods exist, and I could argue that it’s even more fundamental than the premisses that you and your thoughts exist. Further, that you “must” make the decision is an example of the “existential dilemma”: even if you choose not to make the decision, that’s still your decision. This fundamental decision is the answer to the epistemological question: how is knowledge to be obtained (e.g., knowledge about whether you and your ideas or any gods exist)?

From your quote, it seems clear that you’ve decided that you’ll gain knowledge via some “authority” (be it your parents, teachers, clerics, “holy book”, or whatever). Beneath that, however, your choice might be based on doing what your parents and/or your society desire, your desire for eternal life in paradise, your fear of eternal punishment, or similar. Only you can know the reasons behind your decision.

Meanwhile, I hope you realize that there are a huge number of us (roughly two billion people) who don’t accept, will never accept, and to be intellectually honest, can never accept any higher “authority” than our own interpretations of our own experiences plus results obtained in a consistent manner by others (i.e., through similar, honest interpretations of reliable and reproducible data). In short, we’re committed to gaining knowledge via the scientific method, which in essence is just: “guess, test, and reassess”.

With the fundamental premiss that knowledge is gained via the scientific method, then our purposes follow. If such purposes are swept together under a very large rug, they can usually be described as “trying to help humanity” or “trying to help intelligence evolve” – with a general meaning for ‘intelligence’, including being kind to others (with keenness), loving others (within limits), pormoting the happiness of others, seeking peace and justice, protecting the environment, and so on.

Furthermore, we find it to be extremely grievous error for others not to make a similar choice for how to gain knowledge, because other choices have led (and continues to lead) to a huge amount of totally unnecessary strife in the world, out to and including wars. Yet, many if not most of us are optimistic that if a “war to end all wars” doesn’t occur, then eventually, all humans will adopt the premiss that the only way to gain knowledge is via the scientific method (which, as Feynman said, is simply a way to try to make sure you’re not fooling yourself). Consistently, we’re convinced that, eventually, all idea about all gods will die, just as did all previous “immortal” gods (such as Anu, Bal, Osiris, Thor, Zeus, and so on).
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alidagreat
03-14-2007, 05:50 PM
Zoro, you sound like a computer.

You only input data, assess it, and then re-assess it? Sounds like a horrible life. Sounds like all you do is process data. You don't open your mind, or your imagination. I guess we should throw away the imagination and emotional parts of our brains and process data all day like main frame computers.

Uh oh system shut down, i can't process anymore...get a life.

I guess everyone since the beginning of time is wrong because you believe that only the major advances in science, medicine and technology in the past 200 years is the only way to process life.

Sorry to break it to you, but belief is the driving force of human nature. Not science. Are the millions of people that came before us who survived in such raw conditions on earth, secretly genius's who came up with the story of God and his angels and devils? How do you assess the fact that before mankind had enough technology and free time to write out elaborate poetry and stories, the story of God and a higher power has existed. Did the Neanderthals who could barely find food to sustain life come up with these magnificent ideas and stories?

A belief in no higher power is the worst argument anyone can make. The theory of evolution does not even touch on how the mind has acquired its ability to think in such capacities. Do you think that plants coincidentally made oxygen, which we need to survive on earth? Do you think that rain, coincidentally comes from the sky to create growth and sustain life on earth? Do you really think that the sun coincidentally sets everyday, and the moon coincidentally rises every night. Is it a coincidence that we have 2 eyes instead of one? Coincidence that I cry when I'm hurt, and laugh when I'm happy? Is it a coincidence that I have 1 exit for urine and 1 exit for feces? Did evolution, the theory of evolution that is, take into account that there was no scientific method in the beginning.
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zoro
03-14-2007, 07:01 PM
Well, alidagreat, I'd agree that your computer analogy does a fairly good job of describing much of how humans behave, but on the other hand, as you can see in Chapter Ia of my book at www.zenofzero.net (specifically at http://zenofzero.net/docs/IaAwarenessofIdeas.pdf ), my own attempt to describe myself (in an admittedly rather poor poem) is as follows.

What am I?

If you removed my limbs, I would persist;
Or if you numbed my senses pleasureless,
Yet still I would maintain that ‘I’ exist –
This ‘I’, this spark of Nature’s consciousness.

This ‘I’: this stardust burning solar fuels,
This thinking part of all the universe,
This temporary host for spiral molecules –
This ‘I’, alone, when thoughts become a curse.

For, no, I’m not a scroll on which I scribe,
Alone. At best, the scroll contains the prides
Of thoughts: the best from all this human tribe.
And yes, of course, the worst, as well, resides.

Nor am I ego scared and all enclosed:
I am the sum of all that I’ve been told;
Of all, to which this mind has been exposed;
Unique – uniquely sensing what is old.

But maybe I can sum it differently!
If so, then maybe I can see still more;
If so, then ‘I’, the thought, continues ‘me’,
Just as this ‘I’ thinks thoughts that went before.

So what am I? Just one more tiny link
In Nature’s chains of thought. I am, no less,
A wave of thought, uniquely blown to think
Upon this common sea of consciousness.

And if one wave should break out from the norm,
Perhaps with ripples running out in rhyme,
To help some ‘I’ make waves of better form,
Then ‘we’ might know a little more, next time.
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NoName55
03-14-2007, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alidagreat

......................Did the Neanderthals who could barely find food to sustain life come up with these magnificent ideas and stories?
:thumbs_up

format_quote Originally Posted by alidagreat
Dear Brothers,

Worshiping Allah is NOT the sole purpose of mankind. It is the MOST IMPORTANT but it is not the sole purpose. If this was the case and worshiping him was the sole purpose of mankind, then every Muslim would be poor, not educate themselves, sit in a Mosque all day, and try to come up with ways to kill people who are not Muslims.
:sl:Is it not true that learning is ibadah?is going to work to earn halal rizq not ibadah?is not every permissable thing we do, ibadah? no?:w:
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alidagreat
03-14-2007, 07:52 PM
That was the worst poem i have ever heard in my life. Sorry.

I believe that worship and prayer are different THAN learning and doing nuclear physics. I believe that Allah counts them as the same thing. But i personally differentiate it, because it is much more difficult to do nuclear physics and stem cell biology, than to pray, or do Dua. It is more difficult to clean toilets and dishes all day then to pray 5 times a day, or read the Qu'ran. Allah has blessed us with his acceptance of allowing our great advances and our hard work to count for worship and I am very thankful for that.

But i really find the need to differentiate it so that the Muslims get out of the belief that they are just put on earth to pray and do Salat. That is NOT what Allah wanted us to do. We need to use our knowledge, learn about the religion, make the world a better place, pray and worship our Lord, and ultimately do our best to make it eternal paradise and heaven.

If Allah really wanted JUST worshipers he has animals, angels, and jinn to do that. I agree that we are here to worship and that is the MAIN REASON, but I DO NOT agree that is the ONLY reason.
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zoro
03-14-2007, 10:10 PM
alidagreat:

Well, it was you who asked for poetry; I was just tying to oblige. That the result doesn't meet your standards, my response is: at least I tried.

Now, in reciprocation, maybe you'd oblige me. I agree with your emphasis on the need for "knowledge", but you have failed to respond to my suggestions. Therefore, I'll now transform them into a direct request to you: please try to provide some indication of how, in your opinion, knowledge of the reality external to your mind is to be gained.

For example, you have apparently come to the conclusion that various "supernatural" things exist. How do you "know" that? Is it because some "authority" told you so? Is that the fundamental way that you recommend that humans gain knowledge?
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alidagreat
03-15-2007, 02:39 AM
Zoro,

This entire world is supernatural. The earth, the sun, the moon, gravity, space, stars. I mean how did this stuff appear? How have all these things been around for so long, and how did these things coincidentally come together in the universe and compliment each other.

The only feasible explanation is that there is a GOD. HE has sent down prophets to continually re-iterate the message. Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, and all the other prophets have told us as mankind that there is a GOD.

There is no way that all these stories about the prophets preaching the same message about ONE GOD, is wrong. Did they all have some medical condition? Why didn't they just call themselves GOD?

That is what makes sense to me, and that is how I KNOW that there is a GOD. I am smart enough to see the clear signs of life and the world around me, and realize that there is an underlying thought process that underwent their creation.
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Pygoscelis
03-15-2007, 04:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alidagreat
The only feasible explanation is that there is a GOD.
Hello God of the Gaps. Nice to meet you again. I see you pop up in conversations and the thoughts of theists every now and then but it has been a while.
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NoName55
03-15-2007, 04:41 AM
Awaiting deletion
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zoro
03-15-2007, 01:09 PM
alidagreat:

This entire world is supernatural.
Come on, now, be more careful with words. I agree that “this entire world is super…”, but the questions are: A) Is it “supernatural” (which my dictionary defines as “1. relating or attributed to phenomena that cannot be explained by natural laws, 2. relating or attributed to a deity, or 3. relating or attributed to magic or the occult”) and B) How do YOU gain knowledge of the reality external to your mind?

The earth, the sun, the moon, gravity, space, stars. I mean how did this stuff appear? How have all these things been around for so long, and how did these things coincidentally come together in the universe and compliment each other… the only feasible explanation is that there is a GOD.
Again, come on. First, what you wrote just ain’t so: there are other, far more reasonable explanations for what you describe and that are supported by data (as I’ll outline in response to “NoName55”, below). Second, you’re not responding to the question, which, again (but stated differently) is: What’s the process by which you’ve decided you’ll acquire “knowledge”?

Is the scheme you use the same as you’ve apparently used here, namely, to eliminate all other possibilities (and thus your statement “the only feasible explanation”)? If so, that’s been found to be generally a valuable method (as all fans of Sherlock Holmes appreciate), but then there’s the obvious question: What’s “feasible”?

For example, how do you KNOW that it’s “feasible” for some god to snap his fingers (or whatever) to create a universe? Do you just assume that? It’s quite an assumption! Wouldn’t it be more “reasonable” to assume that the process that created the universe was something closer to what humans have experienced?

HE has sent down prophets to continually re-iterate the message. Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, and all the other prophets have told us as mankind that there is a GOD. There is no way that all these stories about the prophets preaching the same message about ONE GOD, is wrong. Did they all have some medical condition? Why didn't they just call themselves GOD? That is what makes sense to me, and that is how I KNOW that there is a GOD.
And therefore, is your answer to the question “How do you KNOW?” something similar to the following? “I know because special people said it’s so.” But is that wise? Those special people also said and did some very stupid stuff: Moses had his followers kill people who didn’t believe in his god; Jesus said “I have come not to bring peace, but a sword” and “I have come to cast conflicts upon the world”; and I assume I don’t need to quote similar messages from the Qur’an. If such “special people” said and did such stuff (with which I assume you agree was wrong), then why do you accept what they said about how the universe was created? They knew less about how the world was created than a modern kid in elementary school. How do you KNOW what they said was correct?

I am smart enough to see the clear signs of life and the world around me, and realize that there is an underlying thought process that underwent their creation.
How do you KNOW there’s “an underlying thought process”. I assume you agree that rocks, for example, don’t “think”, but how do you KNOW that’s “there is an underlying thought process” behind, for example, gravity? If I suggested to you that space (or “the vacuum”) was “chalk full” of “negative energy” and repels all “positive energy” (such as “light” and all the positive energy “congealed” in mass) and that such repulsion by space of mass (and light) is what we call “gravity”, then would you respond that all of that just goes to show that “there is an underlying thought process”? Would you similarly say that “there is an underlying thought process” behind the repulsion of electrical charges of the same sign?

Of course I agree that various processes exist in nature. Certainly it’s challenging to try to understand them. But how do you KNOW that there’s some “thought” behind them – other than our own stumbling thoughts to try to understand, i.e., to gain knowledge?
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NoName55
03-15-2007, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
alidagreat:

.........................
(as I’ll outline in response to “NoName55”, below)................
any answers for me please? in numbered order please lest I get confused, thank you

1.Where did the universe come from?
2.Do you believe you came from stardust?
3.If so, where did the original matter or energy come from?
4.Has Science proven that you can either create or destroy energy or matter.
5.Where did the universe begin?
6.Is it possible for something not to have a beginning?
7.Where did it start?
8.What existed before that?
9.Where did life begin?
10.How can nothing become something?
11.How can something become life?
12.How can life become man?
13.How can nothing take on intelligence?
14.How can nothing evolve and reproduce? Is it possible according to science facts?
15.How big is the universe?
16.Where does it end?
17.Is it ever expanding, if so, what’s beyond its outer limits?
18.Universe MUST have an end to it. If so, what is beyond the end?
19.If the universe has no boundaries, then where does it end?
20.If the universe expands outward forever, what is beyond it reaches?
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root
03-15-2007, 01:30 PM
A few quick replies. Guess man has come a long way to answer a few of those questions and shows us we have much to discover

1.Where did the universe come from?
No one kow's despite religous claims to know.

2.Do you believe you came from stardust?
No one knows despite religous claims to know.

3.If so, where did the original matter or energy come from?
Energy = matter.... matter = energy Ask the Iranians since they are developing the nukes, on second thought ask the scientist from pakistan that gave the info I forgot the dudes name though.

4.Has Science proven that you can either create or destroy energy or matter.
It results in a nuclear explosion when you destroy matter!

5.Where did the universe begin?
No one truly knows, but what a surprise it involved a big bang and a shed load of energy

6.Is it possible for something not to have a beginning?
Yes, numbers for one. they have no beginning and no end.

7.Where did it start?
"it"?

8.What existed before that?
Before what?

9.Where did life begin?
Refer to answer 1

10.How can nothing become something?
The space inside a bucket becomes something from nothing?

11.How can something become life?
Refer to answer 1

12.How can life become man?
Evolution

13.How can nothing take on intelligence?
It can't.

14.How can nothing evolve and reproduce? Is it possible according to science facts?
Define "nothing"

15.How big is the universe?
The part we can see or cant see?

16.Where does it end?
Where light has not yet penetrated?

17.Is it ever expanding, if so, what’s beyond its outer limits?
Refer to question 1

18.Universe MUST have an end to it. If so, what is beyond the end?
Refer to question 1

19.If the universe has no boundaries, then where does it end?
Where the light ends at any given point in time

20.If the universe expands outward forever, what is beyond it reaches?
"If"? what if it does, what if it don't.
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NoName55
03-15-2007, 01:34 PM
Wow, what an explanation! If I were to say that it betrays lack of even primary school education, I'm bound to get a 30% infraction for being personal, so consider the matter closed, as far as you and I are concerned
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zoro
03-15-2007, 02:10 PM
NoName55:

That’s quite a shopping list! Here, I’ll respond only briefly; you can find my more “long winded” explanations and some references to the scientific literature at http://zenofzero.net/docs/Awareness.pdf and at http://www.advancedphysics.org/forum...ead.php?t=6992 .

1.Where did the universe come from?
It seems to have come from a symmetry-breaking fluctuation in a total void (a “total nothingness”), which then led to the Big Bang. Of course we don’t yet know what the first “symmetry-breaking fluctuation” was, but I’d put my money on the possibility that it was some form of positive energy that “congealed”, either as a “string of energy” (of string theory) or some elementary particle.

2.Do you believe you came from stardust?
All evidence supports that hypothesis.

3.If so, where did the original matter or energy come from?
The positive energy (some of which “congealed” into mass) is the complement to the negative energy that currently exists in “space” or “the vacuum”. That is, the total energy of the universe still sums exactly to zero, i.e., as it was before the Big Bang (and which, incidentally, is why my website and book use the phrase “the Zen of Zero”).

4.Has Science proven that you can either create or destroy energy or matter.
Well, if you stated your question a little more carefully, I could respond that science has never yet found any case in which the total energy (including the energy in mass, via E = mc^2) isn’t conserved. That’s known as the first principle of thermodynamics.

5.Where did the universe begin?
At the point where the first symmetry-breaking event occurred, starting time (which requires positive energy for it to exist), then leading to the Big Bang.

6.Is it possible for something not to have a beginning?
No. If there is “something”, if there is some energy, then there is time.

7.Where did it start?
See my response to your #5.

8.What existed before that?
Before there was any energy, there was no time.

9.Where did life begin?
Well, as far as we know, it began on Earth; however, it seems highly likely that it also exists elsewhere in the universe.

10.How can nothing become something?
By separating into positive and negative components, as in 0 = S – S, where “S” is “something” and 0 is “nothing”. (And thus, again, “the Zen of Zero”.)

11.How can something become life?
We don’t yet know how it occurred, but my guess is that some molecules of the ubiquitous “organic goo” of the early Earth aligned themselves with some crystalline structure and managed to begin an autocatalytic reaction, reproducing itself, starting “life”.

12.How can life become man?
Evolution.

13.How can nothing take on intelligence?
As humans did, by evolution.

14.How can nothing evolve and reproduce? Is it possible according to science facts?
Yes – again, via evolution.

15.How big is the universe?
Approximately 40 billion light years.

16.Where does it end?
At its boundaries.

17.Is it ever expanding, if so, what’s beyond its outer limits?
We don’t know if it’s “ever expanding”, but my guess is that it is – into more of the “total nothingness” in which it created itself.

18.Universe MUST have an end to it. If so, what is beyond the end?
See my response to #17.

19.If the universe has no boundaries, then where does it end?
See my response to #17.

20.If the universe expands outward forever, what is beyond it reaches?
Seem my response to #17.
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Pygoscelis
03-15-2007, 02:19 PM
There are a lot of unanswered questions. There is a lot that we as human beings simply do not know and will likely never know.

Yet we humans have a desperate thirst for knowledge, so strong that we often make up irrational answers, just so we have them. We somehow find irrational answers better than no answers at all. Gods are invented to explain the gaps in knowledge.

Again and again even the brightest thinkers in history at the limit of their knowledge have tended to invoke God. They don't do it with things they can explain, only with what they can not. That is, until technology and knowledge progresses and another person comes along with a rational explanation for what was previously thought devine. Then God is erased from that particular inquiry and moved again, to the new limit of our understanding. This is the God of the Gaps.
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جوري
03-15-2007, 02:59 PM
lol.... truly All I can get out of that is a laugh... rather than take my entire day to respond to this... I would just like to pose a few questions about the perfection of this fluctuating congealing nothingness.

1st-- and please use the (universe evolution guide for dummies)... I like it when people write from the heart and not hide behind convoluted borrowed words they don't understand the meaning of, forgive me for saying so--write what makes sense to you and use all the scientific vigor you can muster! So here we go-- how did this congealed fluctuating nothingness create so many different species? Why the perfection and diversity? why not just one huge ill formed mass of crap? and I really would like some details that would on some level be satisfactory --so please don't skimp on the details of how this congealed mass formed for instance our urinary system?

Tell me where along the way did it learn to filter 47 gallons of fluid a day only to absorb the majority and excrete only 2% of that so that you aren't dying of fluid depletion, or how it knows how to separate your ions just right so that you aren't peeing out pure acid and frying your bladder along with it.... How is it that the congealed mass of nothing got it right the very first time around, and I have to take a chance and say it got it right the very first time around, because if it didn't we wouldn't be here you'd have fried your bladder to death with the very first act of micturition !...

Any anomaly in any enzymatic or organ pathway leads to death! Also considering there was no modern science to correct any anomaly that might have existed... tell me how your body knows when it is in a state of acid base imbalance so that it starts Chemical buffering by intracellular and extracellular ions by controlling your pCO2 by normal respiratory function and HCO3- concentration and acid excretion by the kidney again working perfectly in sync, so that we wouldn't have died some where early on for not being able to Acquiesce to noxiousness from high altitudes to ingesting something that isn't balanced with your body's chemicals?

tell me how it is that your aorticopulmonary septum spirals 180 degrees during embryonic development so that you don't end up with a transposition of the great vessels which is in fact incompatible with life and again we would have perished early on if it didn't occur just exactly that way .....

Tell me how it is that we just from cholesterol we can synthesize progesterone, cortiocsterone, Aldosterone, estrogens and DHT, so that each of us functions normally without hypotension, hypertension, or salt wasting, or even end up as hermaphrodites? All of that from a congealed fluctuating nothing....

I can just go on and on, all day on any process in your body or the universe that goes seemingly smooth uninterrupted, flawless, that if it had time to evolve and perfect over the ages we wouldn't be here... any one mal-function is deadly initially and there is no chance to perfect it... unless it were created perfect... I am sorry but a congealed fluctuating nothing that burst into a thousand beautiful viable thing is just not only illogical but doesn't even satisfy the laws of probability if we are going to stick with science all the way!

peace!
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zoro
03-15-2007, 03:04 PM
PurestAmbrosia: my answer is "time".
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جوري
03-15-2007, 03:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
PurestAmbrosia: my answer is "time".
I am sorry but I don't understand what that means...... yes time is nice... time can go on even when you don't exist. If you leave a room surely the sun will rise and set on it regardless of your presence! if any of your biochemical pathways or organ systems failed early on we'd have collectively perished & not re-exist again! We all know the dead can't come back to life! So frankly (time) isn't a satisfactory answer!
If you want to flex your muscles and get all cerebral and show us, not only how ridiculous but dead wrong we are then here is your chance......... I took 35 mins to write all what I can think of, and would actually like an answer to it. I know you don't have one... and there will never be one... so for the rest of us we are perfectly content The G-D is above all... creator of heaven and earth and what is in between...

Peace!
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Skavau
03-15-2007, 04:17 PM
The flaw in your question, PurestAmbrosia is that you make the assumption that all life on this earth is perfect. That everything functions perfectly, as it should. That is not true. Not a single species here is perfect and has the qualities of perfection and beauty.

You only create the idea of perfection. There isn't any and if there was, that doesn't imply that a creator designed it as neither does complication. You make the jump from 'it is so very complex' to, 'God must of designed it'.

For a start:
So here we go-- how did this congealed fluctuating nothingness create so many different species?
It didn't.

Why the perfection and diversity?
There is no perfection and explain how diversity = God.

why not just one huge ill formed mass of crap?
Look at some species out there... this isn't a world of beauty and order.

Tell me where along the way did it learn to filter 47 gallons of fluid a day only to absorb the majority and excrete only 2% of that so that you aren't dying of fluid depletion, or how it knows how to separate your ions just right so that you aren't peeing out pure acid and frying your bladder along with it.... How is it that the congealed mass of nothing got it right the very first time around, and I have to take a chance and say it got it right the very first time around, because if it didn't we wouldn't be here you'd have fried your bladder to death with the very first act of micturition !...
The 'congealed mass of nothing' didn't get it right the very first time. You're making assumptions.
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جوري
03-15-2007, 04:43 PM
A minor flaw that happens sporadically can hardly be equated with imperfection of creation as a whole.... I'll go as far and say and this is a conjecture that any flaw is really here to grab our attention to how millions of possibilities that can go wrong daily in fact end up going right....

Your analogy reminds me of people who have a loved one in a coma and they swear he or she will come out of it... sure it can happen people have come out of comas, they make the news all the time-- one case in a million and everyone hangs on to a straw of hope--but cells in the brain are usually arrested in G0 and don't regenerate... ... yes! it can happen but isn't the norm..... similarly, a flaw can happen-- it isn't the norm!

I wouldn't be able to write any of the above if a state of the converse didn't exist... but when a state of the converse exists it is incompatible with life-- if it were the norm by which we are to measure our standards, we would have ceased to exist as a specie very early one. That doesn't mean evolve into something else because of failure to acquiesce, or due to a mal-function in your body... you'll cease to become something else period! something doesn't spring out of nothing --and the dead don't evolve into another better specie so they can live! .. today I'll burn half of my bladder with acid, tomorrow my kidney tubules will find a way to separate that hydrogen ion and keep it out and I'll have a perfect urinary system?




look at this alone seperate from all other systems or even the universe, and tell me how it is imperfect? or how it came to be this glorious system, on trial and error-- that even your best water filter couldn't keep up with, for just a period of three months let alone the load your kidney handles per day-- and you take for granted that it should work for you everyday and for life!... Truly we are an ungrateful bunch!

There is really no room for trial and error should it have been imperfect from the beginning there would be no possible way of rectifying it. & frankly a thousand correct possibility doesn't loan itself much credence on chance happening alone! You are free to point out the imperfections one by one-- you are free to be an atheist... until you can explain every last happening on this earth from seasons changing to stars revolving, to the oceans to our own bodies scientifically, can we have this conversation of the imperfection you see everywhere and how G-D doesn't/couldn't exist! If G-D to you is a fairy tale, so tp us is a congealed mass of nothing that burst into something!
Again! the rest of us know there is a divine diety behind this-- and we are grateful for the life he has given us!
peace!
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Skavau
03-15-2007, 05:19 PM
you are free to be an atheist... until you can explain every last happening on this earth from seasons changing to stars revolving, to the oceans to our own bodies can we have this conversation of the imperfection you see everywhere!
Why should I explain everything? You're making the claim here about the existence of something.

look at this alone seperate from all other systems or even the universe, and tell me how it is imperfect? or how it came to be this glorious system, on trial and error-- that even your best water filter couldn't keep up with just for three months and you take for granted that it should work for you for life!... Truly we are an ungrateful bunch!
Again, you're exercising the attitude that the Atheists must explain everything. Why do we have the burden of proof?

Life here on earth it is imperfect. We are contigent. We will eventually die. That is an imperfection in itself. We can pick up diseases, we can be born with severe disabilities both mentally and physically. This applies to every species as well.
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Pygoscelis
03-15-2007, 05:31 PM
PurestAmbrosia, you make a valid point but I don't think its the one you are trying to make.

Science it is true can not fully explain the world in the absence of God. The only way we can explain everything is by appealing to a catch-all magic non-answer - God did it (how? who knows, he's god). Without appealing to that magic all we have is unknowns.

Its too bad so many people can't simply live with unknowns and have to appeal to magic.
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جوري
03-15-2007, 05:32 PM
You don't have to explain anything-- I marvel at how many of you participate in a discussion and with bravado and assertion to the "fairy tale" of G-D' existence yet fail to answer one single simple question of how it all came to be using your much celebrated evolution theories and gunk of congealed matter that came to be from the nothing!

Some of us would also argue that death like life is a very natural state... your cells age perfectly naturally with time... Can't live forever at some point you have to account for how you lived!

so spare me the one liners... this thread was started by a Muslim for the purpose of our existence and the anti-creationist squad came a trolling and honking with their usual Ad hominem.. if you can't handle it or have no answers then don't participate feigning knowledge!
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جوري
03-15-2007, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
PurestAmbrosia, you make a valid point but I don't think its the one you are trying to make. .
What is the point I am trying to make?-- you seem to know me better than me which I find rather amusing!

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Science it is true can not fully explain the world in the absence of God. The only way we can explain everything is by appealing to a catch-all magic non-answer - God did it (how? who knows, he's god). Without appealing to that magic all we have is unknowns. .
I see lots of "magical thinking" in a congealed mass from which all else sprang forth... No matter how you slice it-- there will be a non-scientific thought!

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Its too bad so many people can't simply live with unknowns and have to appeal to magic.
That is a defeatist approach! every single cell in your body screams something to you which you deny... and why? all would be unknown-- I agree, if we didn't have holy books... whose words and transcendence also cannot be explained by scientists...... we aren't Uni-dimensional beings... just like we have a digestive system, and a urinary system, and a neurological system etc etc--do we also have a spiritual one that seeks peace and guidance!

one this note I need to really move on with my duties for the day
peace!
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Skavau
03-15-2007, 05:43 PM
single simple question of how it all came to be
Yes, that is such a simple question! ^o)
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zoro
03-15-2007, 06:16 PM
PurestAmbrosia:

By responding “time”, I was trying to get you to think of the vast expanse of geological time.

Maybe it would be useful to draw an analogy from my daily walk. For the past 33 years, for on average 333 days per year, I’ve been walking 3 miles per day – for the exercise and for the opportunity to think without interruption. If the distance is summed, I’ve now walked approximately 3 times around the world.

But probably better would be for me to quote an expert on evolution. My knowledge of the topic is poor. The following quotations, taken from the internet, are all from Richard Dawkins

Never say, and never take seriously anyone who says, "I cannot believe that so-and-so could have evolved by gradual selection." I have dubbed this kind of fallacy "the Argument from Personal Incredulity." Time and again, it has proven the prelude to an intellectual banana-skin experience…

Evolution is very possibly not, in actual fact, always gradual. But it must be gradual when it is being used to explain the coming into existence of complicated, apparently designed objects, like eyes. For if it is not gradual in these cases, it ceases to have any explanatory power at all. Without gradualness in these cases, we are back to miracle, which is simply a synonym for the total absence of explanation…

All appearances to the contrary, the only watchmaker in nature is the blind forces of physics, albeit deployed in a very special way. A true watchmaker has foresight: he designs his cogs and springs, and plans their interconnections, with a future purpose in his mind's eye. Natural selection, the blind, unconscious automatic process which Darwin discovered and which we now know is the explanation for the existence and apparently purposeful form of all life, has no purpose in mind. It has no mind and no mind's eye. It does not plan for the future. It has no vision, no foresight, no sight at all. If it can be said to play the role of watchmaker in nature, it is the blind watchmaker…

Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection is the only workable explanation that has ever been proposed for the remarkable fact of our own existence, indeed the existence of all life wherever it may turn up in the universe. It is the only known explanation for the rich diversity of animals, pants, fungi and bacteria…

The world becomes full of organisms that have what it takes to become ancestors. That, in a sentence, is Darwinism… Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators…

It is grindingly, creakingly, crashingly obvious that if Darwinism was really a theory of chance, it could not work… Each generation is a filter, a sieve; good genes tend to fall through the sieve into the next generation; bad genes tend to end up in bodies that die young or without reproducing… you need more than luck to navigate successfully through a thousand sieves in succession…

…the genetic code is in fact literally identical in all animals, plants and bacteria… All earthly living things are certainly descended from a single ancestor…

For the first half of geological time our ancestors were bacteria. Most creatures still are bacteria, and each one of our trillions of cells is a colony of bacteria…

What is the selfish gene? It is not just one single physical bit of DNA. Just as in the primeval soup, it is all replicas of a particular bit of DNA, distributed throughout the world… We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes. This is a truth which still fills me with astonishment…

You see, if you say something positive like the whole of life – all living things – is descended from a single common ancestor, which lived about 4,000 million years ago, and that we are all cousins, well, that is an exceedingly important and true thing to say and that is what I want to say. Somebody who is religious sees that as threatening and so I am represented as attacking religion, and I am forced into responding to their reaction. But you do not have to see my main purpose as attacking religion. Certainly I see the scientific view of the world as incompatible with religion, but that is not what is interesting about it. It is also incompatible with magic, but that also is not worth stressing. What is interesting about the scientific worldview is that it is true, inspiring, remarkable and that it unites a whole lot of phenomena under a single heading…

Science offers us an explanation of how complexity (the difficult) arose out of simplicity (the easy). The hypothesis of God offers no worthwhile explanation for anything, for it simply postulates what we are trying to explain…

…Textbooks describe DNA as a blueprint for a body. It's better seen as a recipe for making a body, because it is irreversible. But today I want to present it as something different again, and even more intriguing. The DNA in you is a coded description of ancient worlds in which your ancestors lived. DNA is the wisdom out of the old days, and I mean very old days indeed… What changes is the long programs that natural selection has written using those 64 basic words. The messages that have come down to us are the ones that have survived millions, in some cases hundreds of millions, of generations. For every successful message that has reached the present, countless failures have fallen away like the chippings on a sculptor's floor. That's what Darwinian natural selection means. We are the descendants of a tiny elite of successful ancestors. Our DNA has proved itself successful, because it is here. Geological time has carved and sculpted our DNA to survive down to the present…

I am very seriously interested in the sorts of questions which 500 years ago would have been given religious answers. What are we here for? Where did it all come from? In a way, I think religion is to be admired for asking the right questions. I just think it's got the wrong answers.
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جوري
03-15-2007, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
PurestAmbrosia:

By responding “time”, I was trying to get you to think of the vast expanse of geological time.

Maybe it would be useful to draw an analogy from my daily walk. For the past 33 years, for on average 333 days per year, I’ve been walking 3 miles per day – for the exercise and for the opportunity to think without interruption. If the distance is summed, I’ve now walked approximately 3 times around the world.

But probably better would be for me to quote an expert on evolution. My knowledge of the topic is poor. The following quotations, taken from the internet, are all from Richard Dawkins
Why let another man dictate to you something that should be inherently instinctive?... if a scientist came and stated we should all move to Asia because the United states will sink in the ocean in three days would you do it? Man will never be united on opinion so take charge of your own life and decide for yourself!

I once attended a lecture by a Doctor-- a Harvard graduate who honestly couldn't get his cations from anions correct... there he stood in the auditorium with his own published paper, most of the audience skimmed over the details... after all the man is from Harvard... yet when error was pointed out by some third world country resident... it was swept under the rug with a warning-- of not correcting your attending in front of a large audience... What should all of this tell? be your own person... follow what you know in your heart to be true, not what is disguised behind bombastic words...

Now, I understand what you mean by time in the context that you've used just described... but in the context of congealing mass evolving into the life form that we are now... I just don't see it! And I won't unless it can be duplicated scientifically... lots of theories are nice on paper but they have no place in life... technically a man who has schizophrenia can't have Parkinson DZ. since one is deficiency of dopamine and the other is an excess... yet we can have a schizophrenic with Parkinsonism like syndrome... what do you know science cannot explain everything..

peace!
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zoro
03-15-2007, 06:45 PM
PurestAmbrosia: You state

something doesn't spring out of nothing
As I tried to show in my original post (to which you began your responses), your statement is incorrect. As the physicist Edward Tryon put it (in his 1974 article in Nature, vol. 248, pp. 396-397 and to which I've added the notes in "square brackets"):


If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities [such as electrical charge, momentum, and total energy], then it [our Universe] may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum [i.e., the original “zero” or “total nothingness”], the vacuum of some larger space [which stretches the meaning of the word “space”] in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things [that] happen from time to time.
Also, as the physicist Alan Guth stated (quoted here from p. 129 of the book A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawkins):

It is said that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch.
Again, how something can be created from nothing is to separate the original nothing into equal and opposite parts. That's how electrical charge, momentum, and energy are "created" -- and seems to be the way that our universe was created: 0 = S - S.
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جوري
03-15-2007, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
PurestAmbrosia: You state

As I tried to show in my original post (to which you began your responses), your statement is incorrect. As the physicist Edward Tryon put it (in his 1974 article in Nature, vol. 248, pp. 396-397 and to which I've added the notes in "square brackets"):.

ha? your own understanding of what you have written pls.....the pages you have quoted really mean nothing to me and they certainly don't explain how I am incorrect!

format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
Also, as the physicist Alan Guth stated (quoted here from p. 129 of the book A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawkins):.
???????

format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
Again, how something can be created from nothing is to separate the original nothing into equal and opposite parts. That's how electrical charge, momentum, and energy are "created" -- and seems to be the way that our universe was created: 0 = S - S.
lol.... pls go ahead and prove that to me... when you have a "nothing" you can't seperate it into two equal parts!.... if I give you zero dollars can you divide it into two fifty cents? Duplicate that for me and then advance it to the level we are in today in terms of the complexity of matter--and you'll make a believer out of me... I mean a non-believer! :rollseyes
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zoro
03-15-2007, 07:57 PM
PurestAmbrosia: Three responses come to mind, in reaction to your statements:

Why let another man dictate to you something that should be inherently instinctive?... so take charge of your own life and decide for yourself! … be your own person... follow what you know in your heart to be true…

but in the context of congealing mass evolving into the life form that we are now... I just don't see it! And I won't unless it can be duplicated scientifically... lots of theories are nice on paper but they have no place in life.
1. When it took science so long to develop the theory of evolution, it seems inappropriate to call it “inherently instinctive”. Quantum mechanics is an even better example of something that’s not “inherently instinctive”. But both theories seem to work!

2. In general, I agree with your recommendation to “take charge of your own life and decide for yourself”, but reality has a way of imposing its restrictions on investigating everything on your own.

For example, from your posts, it would seem to be appropriate for me to seek your advice if I have medical problems. There isn’t time for me to learn all that you know. Similarly, I go to experts committed to the scientific method to learn about evolution, because there isn’t time for me to learn all that, for example, Dawkins knows. And similarly, my impression is that should you be interested, you might want to learn some from me about specific aspects of mathematics and the physical sciences, since I have my Ph.D. in those fields plus more than a decade of experience teaching them at various universities. Further, if you should seek information about specific aspects of environmental sciences, I have more than 20 years research experience in my specialty (with more than 50 open-literature publications), and when I retired, an international conference was named after me, to honor my accomplishments – at least I assume that was the reason, rather than their just being glad to get rid of me!

So, again, there is too much knowledge for any one of us to be an expert in all fields; therefore, we must rely on the knowledge and honesty of others. Thus, for example, when you state “but in the context of congealing mass evolving into the life form that we are now... I just don't see it!”, my recommendation to you is that you consider what competent people knowledgeably and honestly report.

And of course I agree that it’s wise to be skeptical (agreeing with your “And I won't [believe it] unless it can be duplicated scientifically…”), but I disagree with your “lots of theories are nice on paper but they have no place in life”. As you know, the scientific method starts by trying to make sense of some data (followed by proposing succinct hypotheses that have predictive power and that generally are consistent with well-established principles). In the case of how this universe came into existence, in particular, one can’t jump immediately to a “full-fledged theory”. At present, we’re trying to make sense of the data – and I maintain (and surely you agree) that such as step has an important “place in life”.

3. I would have you seriously reconsider your suggestion “follow what you know in your heart to be true”. That’s what’s called “the proof-by-pleasure fallacy”, which has caused humanity an enormous amount of harm -- and continues to do so.
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zoro
03-15-2007, 08:09 PM
PurestAmbrosia:

If you will read the first chapter of my (free) online book at www.zenofzero.net, then maybe it will become clearer to you. Until you do, it seems highly inefficient for me to try to lead you through it, here, step by step -- not to dwell on the nuisance factor of your insulting me, evey step of the way.
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alidagreat
03-15-2007, 08:20 PM
[/QUOTE]So, again, there is too much knowledge for any one of us to be an expert in all fields; therefore, we must rely on the knowledge and honesty of others. Thus, for example, when you state “but in the context of congealing mass evolving into the life form that we are now... I just don't see it!”, my recommendation to you is that you consider what competent people knowledgeably and honestly report.[QUOTE]

Knowledgeable and competent people used to report that the world was flat.
Knowledgeable and competant people used to report that blood letting was a great way to cure disease and illness.

I mean seriously...evolution and the atheist belief is just a stupid thought that will eventually be laid to rest, by science or by miracle.

No need to really argue about it, just let it happen, as the stupid ideas of the past have come to be know as stupid, so will evolution and atheism.
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جوري
03-15-2007, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
PurestAmbrosia: Three responses come to mind, in reaction to your statements:



1. When it took science so long to develop the theory of evolution, it seems inappropriate to call it “inherently instinctive”. Quantum mechanics is an even better example of something that’s not “inherently instinctive”. But both theories seem to work!

2. In general, I agree with your recommendation to “take charge of your own life and decide for yourself”, but reality has a way of imposing its restrictions on investigating everything on your own.

For example, from your posts, it would seem to be appropriate for me to seek your advice if I have medical problems. There isn’t time for me to learn all that you know. Similarly, I go to experts committed to the scientific method to learn about evolution, because there isn’t time for me to learn all that, for example, Dawkins knows. And similarly, my impression is that should you be interested, you might want to learn some from me about specific aspects of mathematics and the physical sciences, since I have my Ph.D. in those fields plus more than a decade of experience teaching them at various universities. Further, if you should seek information about specific aspects of environmental sciences, I have more than 20 years research experience in my specialty (with more than 50 open-literature publications), and when I retired, an international conference was named after me, to honor my accomplishments – at least I assume that was the reason, rather than their just being glad to get rid of me!

So, again, there is too much knowledge for any one of us to be an expert in all fields; therefore, we must rely on the knowledge and honesty of others. Thus, for example, when you state “but in the context of congealing mass evolving into the life form that we are now... I just don't see it!”, my recommendation to you is that you consider what competent people knowledgeably and honestly report.

And of course I agree that it’s wise to be skeptical (agreeing with your “And I won't [believe it] unless it can be duplicated scientifically…”), but I disagree with your “lots of theories are nice on paper but they have no place in life”. As you know, the scientific method starts by trying to make sense of some data (followed by proposing succinct hypotheses that have predictive power and that generally are consistent with well-established principles). In the case of how this universe came into existence, in particular, one can’t jump immediately to a “full-fledged theory”. At present, we’re trying to make sense of the data – and I maintain (and surely you agree) that such as step has an important “place in life”.

3. I would have you seriously reconsider your suggestion “follow what you know in your heart to be true”. That’s what’s called “the proof-by-pleasure fallacy”, which has caused humanity an enormous amount of harm -- and continues to do so.
To the contrary I think investigating things on your own would make you less a victim... anyone can hide behind jargon that you'd swear it is the truth! it is put in appropriate terms... how can it not make sense?
If we were to go by your logic we'd still be using something like digoxin for heart failure when it has absolutely no prospect on improving mortality or the quality of life... in favor for something like propanolol; which by all account would seem to have a contradictory affect!... after all physics dictates that a muscle that can no longer pump blood, should be given an inotropic agent to make it pump better-- not something to slow down the heart rate?... yet here we are by medical trial prove just that... to improve mortality someone in CHF would in fact need to go on a regimen that would include propanolol as an agent rather than digoxin the obvious choice! & then you try it out--you see it in your pts. so you can put that theory to work for humanity.

you don't have to be an expert in any field to exercise your brain.. I'd like to think that I can discuss Corregio's Jupiter and Io as much as I could the biosynthesis of heme... All you need is to be literate... to be able to read to have an inquisitive mind, to be able to process information.. to understand to ask questions to contradict to duplicate... to show some humility even in ignorance-- In essence the same things that bind us all to this form and weakness that is (the human condition) there is no reason to talk above somebody... there is no reason to expect that if it makes sense to one it should make sense to all or else leave it to the experts!...
and finally when you find an answer that satisfies you both heart and mind embrace it!... as opposed to being defiant in favor of some theorem that has no premises or logic .

I have actually called my Professor of Physics from under grad to ask of this (0=S-S)....... I admit I am not above learning, maybe some component is missing from my mind that disables me from making sense of this-- that I can't think of it in abstract terms?.... and it made no sense to him either... it is what he called (poetic-physics) ....

lastly, I don't know of the enormous harm you speak of? I have used before the analogy that religion is much like a knife --in the hand of a surgeon, a cook or a serial murder... each party does with it in accordance to what the heart perceives to be true, to what is satisfactory too skill and moral consciousness .... Yes it can be used immorally... it can be used to aid humanity... it can be used with no implications whatsoever--and can be used to commit massive atrocities, ultimately your individuality, your own morals is the decider... and that is what you'll eventually be accountable for!-- I am sorry if you feel insulted... but rather than referencing me to something you've written from which I am to infer what I may... explain it to me.. I admit that I am not by any measure the brightest pea in the Pod!... I consult with my peers and elders, and I ask questions like a 2nd grader... so go ahead and teach me and pls be ready to do it in lay man's terms because admittedly my brain capacitance isn't as developed as yours and I am always truly grateful when someone teaches me something!

peace!
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Skavau
03-15-2007, 08:55 PM
I mean seriously...evolution and the atheist belief is just a stupid thought that will eventually be laid to rest, by science or by miracle.
If that is the extent of your debating, then that's sad.
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Joe98
03-15-2007, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fakhan
The Purpose Behind our Existence

Is to go hiking, cycling and skiing.

The further into the wilderness the better !
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alidagreat
03-15-2007, 10:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
If that is the extent of your debating, then that's sad.
If you are an atheist, then that is sad.
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Skavau
03-15-2007, 10:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alidagreat
If you are an atheist, then that is sad.
I'm getting on alright.
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zoro
03-15-2007, 11:07 PM
PurestAmbrosia:

To the contrary I think investigating things on your own would make you less a victim..
Thank you very much, but I don’t consider myself “a victim”!

you don't have to be an expert in any field to exercise your brain.. All you need is to be literate... to be able to read to have an inquisitive mind, to be able to process information.. to understand to ask questions to contradict to duplicate... to show some humility even in ignorance-- In essence the same things that bind us all to this form and weakness that is (the human condition) there is no reason to talk above somebody... there is no reason to expect that if it makes sense to one it should make sense to all or else leave it to the experts!...
Agreed. My wife estimates that I have read 1,000 books during the past 10 years. I don’t know – but I do know, that there’s much that I don’t know. In those areas where I feel my knowledge is deficient, I try to learn from those more knowledgeable.

I have actually called my Professor of Physics from under grad to ask of this (0=S-S)....... and it made no sense to him either... it is what he called (poetic-physics) ...
I can’t resist smiling to myself, imagining your conversation! I expect that he would revise his description of your description if he would go to my brief explanations at http://zenofzero.net/docs/Awareness.pdf and at www.advancedphysics.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6992 .

I don't know of the enormous harm you speak of [caused by the “proof-by-pleasure fallacy”]
That’s a big topic, that I’ll leave for another thread or for later in this thread (since I haven’t yet addressed your main request). Therefore, for here and for now (and no doubt stimulating your objection), let me just quote Nietzsche:

An agreeable opinion is accepted as true: this is the proof by pleasure (or, as the church says, the proof by strength), which all religions are so proud of, whereas they ought to be ashamed. If the belief did not make us happy, it would not be believed: how little must it then be worth!
I am sorry if you feel insulted... but rather than referencing me to something you've written from which I am to infer what I may... explain it to me.. so go ahead and teach me and pls be ready to do it in lay man's terms… I am always truly grateful when someone teaches me something!
Since you seem to object to going elsewhere to read it, then I’ll bring it to you. The following is from the referenced chapter. The book is explicitly written for my 16-year-old granddaughter (referred to as “Dear” in the text, hiding her name to protect her from religious extremists); yet, of course the book is intended for all teenagers who will invest the time to read it (which is why I put my “letters” to her on the internet); therefore, I will have failed if it’s not already in “layman’s terms”. I’ll paste relevant text below; I invite your comments and questions, and should you have any, I’ll do my best to convey the ideas to you more clearly.

The essence of the idea is that what’s here (i.e., this universe), in total, sums to totally nothing (i.e., zero) – exactly as it did before there was anything here. That’s a little of what I mean in the title of this book by “Zen of Zero”; later in this chapter I’ll give you more “hints” of what I mean – but I won’t complete my explanation until I get to the Z-chapters, one of which is entitled “Zen of Zero.”

Now, Dear, if your immediate response to my suggestion [that “what’s here (i.e., the universe), in total, sums to totally nothing (i.e., zero)”] is to conclude that I’m saying that there’s nothing here, then my response would be not only “Gimme a break” (i.e., be a little kinder) but also “Be a little more patient: I may be dumb, kid, but I ain’t that stupid!”

Seriously though, Dear, think, first, about how much electrical charge exists. You can charge your comb by combing your hair (as the plastic in your comb strips electrons from your hair, because of differences in the way electrons are bound in the molecules of plastic vs. in the molecules of your hair), but I assume you know that, when combing your hair, you didn’t create any electrical charge – you just separated the charges. That is, in total, your comb plus your hair has exactly the same electrical charge as it had before you commenced combing, summing exactly, in total, to zero electrical charge.

Similarly for all processes by which humans manipulate electrical charge, from making batteries to powering enormous power-transmission lines: we only separate charge; we never create it; in total, the electrical charge always sums to exactly zero. In fact, that’s a “general principle” of physics (called “the conservation of electrical charge” and based on an enormous number of experiments): electrical charge can never be created or destroyed, or equivalently, the net amount of electrical charge produced in any process is zero.

Further, I doubt if there’s a single physicist who would disagree with the concept that, in total, the electrical charge of the universe sums to exactly zero – although it’s rather difficult to test if that hypothesis is correct! In any event and in summary, what always seems to happen with electrical charge is that the “original zero” (charge) is just separated into exactly compensating positive and negative components.

This case of separating electrical charge will, perhaps, give you a first hint of why I use the term “the Zen of Zero” – although it’s only the slightest hint. The hint is this: the idea that electrical charges can’t be created but only separated is consistent with the Ancient Chinese idea of yin and yang, defined as follows [Footnote #1: Copied from http://barbaria.com/god/philosophy/zen/glossary.htm]

Yin and Yang: Principle of polarity in Chinese cosmology, in which the opposite poles eventually blend and become one another in a cosmic connectedness.
Now, Dear, it would take me longer to explain to you why, similarly, there appears to be, in total, no momentum in this universe. Maybe in your physics course you’ve already seen that momentum is always conserved during collisions in isolated systems (i.e., the total momentum is constant). If so, then I trust you’ll consider it obvious that, if before the Big Bang the total momentum of “the universe” was initially zero (which seems to be a totally obvious assumption, if there was nothing present!), then the total momentum in the universe must still sum to zero.

In the case of energy, maybe the idea that the total energy of the universe must be at least a constant won’t seem too foreign to you if you’ve seen the first “law” (or better, the first “principle”) of thermodynamics, which states that energy (similar to electrical charge) can only be changed from one form to another; it can’t be created or destroyed. That this constant value for the energy would be zero then follows, if initially (before the Big Bang) the energy was exactly zero (i.e., if the universe was created from nothing).

And let me add that, Dear, that if the above idea (that the total energy of the universe is zero) seems “weird” to you, given that you can see so many things whizzing around with so much kinetic energy, then prepare yourself for learning about even “weirder stuff” in later courses in physics. Thus, from Einstein’s work, mass is actually “solidified positive-energy” (according to his E = mc2) and from Dirac’s work, “space” or “the vacuum” is actually “brim full” with “negative energy” (which led to his prediction of “anti-particles”, i.e., “holes” in the negative-energy “vacuum”, and to his being awarded the 1933 Nobel Prize in Physics, along with one of the founders of quantum mechanics, Erwin Schrödinger).

But such details aside for now, if you can (at least for now) accept at least the possibility that, currently and in total, there’s no charge, momentum, and energy in our universe, then maybe you can begin to see what I mean by suggesting that there’s nothing here – and it must have been always so! Yet, if you don’t like the above demonstration, then maybe it would be helpful if I showed you the same idea using the simplest possible mathematics.

Thus, the challenge is to try to understand how ‘something’ could have arisen from ‘nothing’ – or stated differently, how ‘nothing’ could have yielded ‘something’. Mathematically, the question is: How could ‘nothing’ (i.e., zero = 0) lead to ‘something’, say represented by the symbol S?

Well, the answer to that question is obvious: 0 = S + ( – S ), i.e., nothing can obviously be separated into something plus its negative. Alternatively, with A = (pretty much Anything), B = Bosons, C = Charge, D = Dark Matter, E = Energy, F = Fermions, G = Gluons, H = Hadrons, I = (I dunno!), …, then “nothing” can be separated into any number of “things”:

0 = (A – A) + (B – B) + (C – C) + (D – D) + (E – E) + …

From this, I suggest that we humans experience “something” in this universe because the different parts (that sum to totally nothing) are separated. For example, the mass of all us humans is “merely” a particular arrangement of various “chunks” of positive energy, via Einstein’s E = mc2.

Thereby, Dear, the suggestion is that, “in the beginning”, there was totally nothing, nowhere, and with no time. And let me add that I expect that this original “total nothingness” still exists “outside” our universe, i.e., there’s totally nothing “there” – which is a meaningless statement, because without any momentum or energy “there”, then there is no “there”! This original “total nothingness” or “the original zero” had at least two options: sit there (nowhere!) and do nothing “for ever” (which is meaningless, since there was no time “there”) or “start bubbling” or “fluctuating” – which, when you study quantum mechanics, you’ll find that this “bubbling” is what Nature (at least in our universe) actually does!

[Footnote #2: Another hint about the Zen of Zero, Dear, can be derived from the difficulty of using familiar words to try to describe totally foreign concepts, such as “total nothingness” or “the original zero” or (hint, hint, “the Tao”, pronounced “Dao”). As (perhaps) Lao Tzu wrote (perhaps in about 600 BCE) in the book Tao Te Ching (“The Book of the Way and Virtue”): “The Tao that can be spoken of, is not the true Tao; the name that can be named, is not the true Name.”]

There is (or was), however, a critical proviso for these “bubblings” or “fluctuations” in the original “nothing”. Any fluctuation could occur (consistent with what I call not the “quantum mechanics” but a more general “zigblat mechanics” of zero) provided that, when “the total nothingness” fluctuated, sampling all “states” available to it, then always-but-always the total “positive” of anything created (such as energy, spin, charm, color, or whatever “quantum numbers” or “zigblat numbers” it “created”) was exactly balanced by corresponding “negatives”, in total summing exactly to zero, i.e., provided that always, in total, there was still totally nothing.

At least one of these fluctuations, however, apparently “broke the symmetry”, maybe permitting at least one “chunk” of positive energy to “condense” into a “particle” that “refused” to “rejoin” with its negative-energy counterpart. Once that happened, “all hell broke loose”, causing the Big Bang. That is, with the Big Bang, enormously more positive energy “solidified”, creating our universe, starting time, and so on.

Incidentally, Dear, as far as I can make sense of the data, our universe seems to be still exploding into the “total nothingness” that “exists” outside our universe. It may be, however, that “other verses” (multiverses!) have also created themselves “out there” in that “total nothingness”. But even if so, I don’t know of any reason why these “other verses” would be anything similar to ours, including even having the same “dimensions”. Other verses may even be “right here”, in different dimensions – in which case “here” would be a meaningless concept!

And though I wouldn’t be surprised if the patience of a certain grandchild is being “sorely tried”, I want to add a few comment about the importance of symmetry and about what symmetry might have been broken, leading to the Big Bang.

To begin to appreciate the importance of symmetry, Dear, first realize that any mass (such as a car) never “possesses” any absolute momentum or (kinetic) energy in the same way that it “possesses” a certain number of atoms. Thus, even though you may be driving along in a car at 50 mph relative to someone standing on the road, yet relative to your sitting in the car, its velocity, momentum, and kinetic energy are zero. Nonetheless, even in your “stationary car” you should take extreme care, because a barricade “sitting” on the road in front of you (relative to someone standing on the road) would have an enormous amount of momentum coming right at you! That is, Dear, bodies don’t “possess” any absolute velocity, momentum, or (kinetic) energy, only relative values of these “things”.

In fact, if stationary and moving observers are to agree that in any collision (e.g., between a car and a barricade) momentum and energy are always conserved, then according to a 1915 demonstration by a brilliant but relatively unknown scientist Emmy Noether (whose name rhymes with “mother”), it’s necessary that space and time have (or space-time has) “translational symmetry”, i.e., all descriptions of nature are independent of location and velocity of the observer. This “translational symmetry” is one of many “invariances” found in nature (and given such names as charge invariance, Lorentz invariance, and gauge invariance).

One symmetry that was expected but was found to be violated, however, is “parity”, the discovery of which led to the award of the 1956 Nobel prize in physics to Lee and Yang. It’s common to compare “parity” to left-handedness vs. right-handedness (which doesn’t seem to be symmetric in humans!), but actually, parity is related to the found-to-be-preferred direction along which a particular radioactive nucleus emits its decay products. All of which I mention solely to be able to say: perhaps the original symmetry that was broken was parity – which then would explain not only why the Big Bang occurred but also why you’re right handed!

But potentially to confuse you still further, let me say that I doubt that it was nonconservation of parity that was the original “symmetry breaking fluctuation” in the “original nothingness” that led to Big Bang. Instead, I’d have a tendency to put my money on the possibility that some “chunk” of positive energy (maybe the fundamental chunk of energy in string theory) “got hooked on itself”, or “tied in a knot”, or bound with some other chunk of positive energy (the original “homosexual bond”!) and was thereby unavailable to “mate” with it’s negative counterpart, which then broke the symmetry. And I make the suggestion that it was a “chunk” of positive energy that broke the symmetry solely from the result: look around you to see how much solidified positive energy (i.e., mass) now exists!

And if I’ve managed to totally confuse you with the above, Dear, then I would recommend that you just totally ignore it! On the other hand, if you are left with the general idea that your old grandfather suggests that the universe created itself from total nothingness, then that much will be quite adequate for now.

Footnote #3: And on the third hand (!), Dear, if after you earn your Ph.D. in physics and want to talk about the Big Bang being caused by a collision of a couple of the infinite number of (mem-)branes in eleven-dimensional space, then my first response would be “You talk; I’ll listen” and maybe my final response would be “Why don’t you tell me about the rest of it ‘when I’m older!’?”

But if you also picked up some idea that everything in the universe still sums to exactly zero, exactly as it did before the Big Bang, then so much the better. Then, maybe you won’t conclude (when your old grandfather suggests that there’s nothing here) that even he’s barely here – not to suggest that you won’t reach that same conclusion, but at least that you’ll base your assessment on different evidence!

Besides, Dear, if you’re beginning to think that your old grandfather has “really gone around the bend”, I’d point out to you that, subsequently, I’ve found myself to be in good company. For example, in his 1974 article entitled “Is the Universe a Vacuum Fluctuation”, which I found only recently but which was published in Nature in 1974 (vol. 248, pp. 396 -397), Edward P. Tryon (Department of Physics, City College of New York) demonstrated from available data that the total energy of our universe appears to be zero, “to within a factor of order unity”, depending on his assumption of the mass density in the universe.

In his paper, Tryon mentions that P. Bergmann earlier presented “a more sophisticated argument” that our universe must have exactly zero energy. Further, near the end of his paper, Tryon concludes the following [to which I’ve added the italics and some notes in “square brackets”, such as these!].

If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities [such as electrical charge, momentum, and total energy], then it [our Universe] may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum [i.e., the original “zero” or “total nothingness”], the vacuum of some larger space [which stretches the meaning of the word “space”] in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things [that] happen from time to time.
Another example is the following quotation from p. 129 of the 1988 book A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking (who holds the same chair at Cambridge University that Newton held). In this quotation, I’ve again added the italics and some notes [in square brackets].

… that… raises the question of where the energy [in the universe] came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero [although maybe Hawking should have written something similar to “seems to be exactly zero” or “theoretically must be exactly zero” or even “by the first principle of thermodynamics must remain zero, if initially zero”].

The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. [I assume that, with his use of the word “exactly”, Hawking is referring to Bergmann’s theory rather than Tryon’s calculation.] So the total energy of the universe is zero.

Now twice zero is also zero. Thus, the universe can double the amount of positive matter energy and also double the negative gravitational energy without violation of the conservation of energy… During the inflationary phase [of the early universe], the universe increases its size by a very large amount. Thus, the total amount of energy available to make particles becomes very large. As Guth has remarked, “It is said that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch.”
In the above quotation, the fellow that Hawking quotes, Alan Guth, is in the Physics Department at M.I.T. and is famous for his “Inflationary Theory” of the universe.

In fact, still another example is from a recent paper coauthored by Guth and published in a Special Section of Science entitled Einstein’s Legacy (on “the centennial of Albert Einstein’s most important year of scientific innovation”).

[I’ll omit the long quotation, which deals also with string theory.]

And if you could generally follow all the above, Dear (although it certainly isn’t necessary for purposes of this book!), then maybe there are a couple of other advantages for you.

For example, maybe you won’t be so surprised (as otherwise you might be) upon reading statement in news reports such as the following (from a Reuter news story by Jeremy Lovell dealing with the 2006 annual meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science and with the Large Hadron Collider to be opened in 2007 at CERN); in this report, the physicist Brian Cox of Manchester University is quoted as saying:

It could be that there is a whole new universe a millimeter away from our heads but at right-angles to the three dimensions that are here.
As another example, from the above you might gain another hint of my meaning for “the Zen of Zero” (namely, about the influence such thoughts can have on our experiencing life). In particular, there’s Einstein’s tremendous comment:

Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, [then] wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
I’d even suggest that, if you can perceive that our universe might be nothing (which is now something) expanding into nothing (which is not yet something), then you’ll gain an entirely different outlook on life – which could be labeled as the Zen of Zero!
Reply

جوري
03-15-2007, 11:25 PM
My ole prof. wouldn't revise his theory/understanding, and I have in fact fwd your fecund little manifesto to him! -- at the end of all those long winded additions and subtraction still lies a zero from which nothing can be produced or divided! you wrote it yourself there... energy can't be created nor destoryed..... yet energy needs to exist if you are to do something at all with it! Now, (if you personally understand something really well, you will not have a hard time explaining it to someone else!) you won't need this much volume of a cut and paste.. or even twisted semantics, so that I can drown in it Ad infinitum, while you feel slightly triumphant? admittedly I am not sure why..

If you know not just the anatomy but the physiology not the how but the why of the page to which you are referencing (cutting and pasting) then it will be very easy for you to explain its contents instead of hiding behind those big formulas...
Even big formulas don't need an "Einstein" to explain -- they in fact can be broken down to very simple terms and made use off in every day life..and should be used by the common man-- for instance I found a (le place's law) in that page PDF you have referenced me... I know how to make use of his formula in real life in medicinal terms, for (neonates with collapsed alevoli) I can actually explain it to someone, so that it doesn't just look good on paper!... contradictory to what you might believe that each should be confined to his/her area of expertise-- since somethings are just beyond our scope and comprehnsion, I believe that all the sciences intertwine...

So show me how this one fits into the non-existence of G-D-- and how a zero can propogate into two particles of opposite charges from which all supreme phenomenal happenings have taken place!

The text which you've pasted here though rich in characters and principles and at times even very poetic.... Still invariably doesn't explain how a nothing divided into two parts can equal to something!... If it did and I missed it.... then again I urge you to go ahead and prove it! and forgive me for I am a bit dense! I almost feel sorry for the little girl who was bedazzled by this text from which she is being shielded from the so-called fanatics only to be brain washed by bigger fanatics with pseudo-science and intellect!

peace......
Reply

zoro
03-16-2007, 12:20 AM
PurestAmbrosia:

My ole prof. wouldn't revise his theory/understanding, and I have in fact fwd your fecund little manifesto to him! -- at the end of all those long winded additions and subtraction still lies a zero from which nothing can be produced or divided! you wrote it yourself there... energy can't be created nor destoryed.....! Now, (if you personally understand something really well, you will not have a hard time explaining it to someone else!) you won't need this much volume of a cut and paste.. or even twisted semantics, so that I can drown in it Ad infinitum, while you feel slightly triumphant? admittedly I am not sure why..
I do not feel even slightly “triumphant”. Perhaps that’s why you’re “not sure why”. Also, does it not strike you as incongrous with your reprimands to me that you are contacting an "expert"?! I would add, further, that for your patients’ sake, I hope that your bedside manner is better than the manner in which you write: it seethes with sarcasm and pompousness.

In any event, brushing that aside once again, let me address your: “yet energy needs to exist if you are to do something at all with it.”

If (as you say) you desire to learn, then I recommend that you read the following, slowly.

Start with nothing, absolutely zero, zip: no energy, no nothing.

Got it?

Now, split that "nothing" into various positive and negative “things”, such as electrical charge, components of momentum, and energy.

Stop now. Think about it. Positive vs. negative energy.

“What,” you probably ask, “is negative energy?”

Answer: consider what we call “space” or “the vacuum”. It’s filled to the brim with negative energy.

Now, read what I already posted, again – and this time, for a change, THINK.

And as for your:
I almost feel sorry for the little girl who was bedazzled by this text from which she is being shielded from the so-called fanatics only to be brain washed by bigger fanatics with pseudo-science and intellect!
When it comes to my grandchildren, I strongly advise you to butt out.
Reply

جوري
03-16-2007, 12:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
PurestAmbrosia:


I do not feel even slightly “triumphant”. Perhaps that’s why you’re “not sure why”. Also, does it not strike you as incongrous with your reprimands to me that you are contacting an "expert"?! I would add, further, that for your patients’ sake, I hope that your bedside manner is better than the manner in which you write: it seethes with sarcasm and pompousness..
was something in the way of a "smile" on your face after the "proof" which I was to present to a mentor. I do apologize if you feel that I am brimming with sarcasm and pompousness! in my defense that is in essence the same sensation I get from the Atheists on this forum! me contacting an expert was nothing more than me bewildered at something I was obviously not taught conventionally in the class room... as in not the readily accepted theory!

format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
In any event, brushing that aside once again, let me address your: “yet energy needs to exist if you are to do something at all with it.”

If (as you say) you desire to learn, then I recommend that you read the following, slowly.

Start with nothing, absolutely zero, zip: no energy, no nothing.

Got it?.
Yes!

format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
Now, split that "nothing" into various positive and negative “things”, such as electrical charge, components of momentum, and energy.

Stop now. Think about it. Positive vs. negative energy.

“What,” you probably ask, “is negative energy?”

Answer: consider what we call “space” or “the vacuum”. It’s filled to the brim with negative energy.

Now, read what I already posted, again – and this time, for a change, THINK..
Yes! wish I could spilt the nothing... even after much thought--- but it borders upon a fantasy the (never ending story) type-- than an actual cold visceral reality... in a sense non-reproducible!... Again poetic physics!-- I can deal with the positive and the negative energy but not the splitting of a zero..... it is nonsensical! .. probably as much nonsense as the concept of G-D is to you! so you see when it comes down to it-- a little magical exercise is needed to accept either hypothesis.
Sort of like the schizophrenic who exhibits positive signs and the one who exhibits negative signs... at the very core you are still a schizophrenic then you add or subtract symptoms! The religious type the (positive sort) the atheist type (the negative sort) -- I hope you'll forgive the analogy.....


format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
And as for your:


When it comes to my grandchildren, I strongly advise you to butt out.
with pleasure sir :)

peace!
Reply

zoro
03-16-2007, 12:45 AM
Yes! wish I could spilt the nothing... even after much thought--- but it borders upon a fantasy the (never ending story) type-- than an actual cold visceral reality... in a sense non-reproducible!... Again poetic physics!-- I can deal with the positive and the negative energy but not the splitting of a zero..... it is nonsensical
Astounding!

Okay, see if this will get through your.... [I'll skip that].

Comb your hair [assuming you have some].

Now, see if your comb is charged enough to pick up a small piece of paper.

Amazing, huh?

Something created from nothing, by splitting "nothing" into positive and negative components.

DUH.

Now, read the posted part of the chapter -- and for a change, THINK!
Reply

جوري
03-16-2007, 01:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
Astounding!

Okay, see if this will get through your.... [I'll skip that].

Comb your hair [assuming you have some].

Now, see if your comb is charged enough to pick up a small piece of paper.

Amazing, huh?

Something created from nothing, by splitting "nothing" into positive and negative components.

DUH.

Now, read the posted part of the chapter -- and for a change, THINK!
You don't have to lose your manners to make a point!
In very primitive child like terms that we can all understand (physics 101)-- in order for you to create that "static electricity" or charge you need something not nothing!.. in combing my hair I am passing electrons from my hair to the comb.. that isn't a creation of something from nothing (gasp)... that is transferance of electrons from hair to comb!....... tiny particles that though we can't see still exist!
peace!
Reply

zoro
03-16-2007, 01:46 AM
Okay, and if you apparently won't consider carefully what I wrote, then (again) carefully consider what Steven Hawking wrote in his book (referenced earlier):

… that… raises the question of where the energy [in the universe] came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero.

The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.

Now twice zero is also zero. Thus, the universe can double the amount of positive matter energy and also double the negative gravitational energy without violation of the conservation of energy… During the inflationary phase [of the early universe], the universe increases its size by a very large amount. Thus, the total amount of energy available to make particles becomes very large. As Guth has remarked, “It is said that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch.”
Now, carefully consider (again) what Tryon published in Nature (referenced earlier):

If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities, then it may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum, the vacuum of some larger space in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things [that] happen from time to time.
And since, now, you apparently approve of listening to "experts", listen (again) to what Einstein said:

Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, [then] wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
And as for my manners: You, sir, would try the patience of Job.
Reply

جوري
03-16-2007, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
Okay, and if you apparently won't consider carefully what I wrote, then (again) carefully consider what Steven Hawking wrote in his book (referenced earlier):


Now, carefully consider (again) what Tryon published in Nature (referenced earlier):



And since, now, you apparently approve of listening to "experts", listen (again) to what Einstein said:



And as for my manners: You, sir, would try the patience of Job.
For starters I am a lady!-- …Now--firstly you don't offer an explanation as to where this "energy" came from-- I can accept that it can't be created nor destroyed... but I need you to account for its existence and where from! Energy doesn't mean nothing nor does it mean a zero... by definition it is a fundamental entity, and entities don't come from zero!... yes it is all great about the rest-- positive energy (universe)... negative energy (gravity) both nullifying each other thus equaling to zero--- again, doesn't offer an explanation as to how two forces that cancel each other out, create something from the nothing! or even remotely offer an explanation to a zero dividing into two particles of opposite charges that expands into more nothing to create something seemingly phenomenal... & Sure I can accept that matter expands into the universe... but matter by definition is some sort of material again couldn't have come from a zero any more than energy did! honestly if that can be duplicated in a vacuum all the way to the amazing form that we are in today we wouldn't be sitting here writing about this crap-- lastly none of this impressive lists of names offers an explanation to most simple to the most complex questions which I posted earlier today! ... ... We both offer "theories" and I rather like the one I follow... it is more satisfactory to me on multiple levels!-- and if it drives your patience-- what can I say? Free thought never hurt anyone in fact has been shown to keeps Alzheimer's at bay!-- besides what business have you with (JOB)? they are all stories of yore and have no room in that zenzero world of yours!
peace!
Reply

zoro
03-16-2007, 03:40 AM
PurestAmbrosia:

Now--firstly you don't offer an explanation as to where this "energy" came from-- I can accept that it can't be created nor destroyed... but I need you to account for its existence and where from!
To "account for it", it's required that you think.

Try it. Start with absolutely nothing. That, I agree, is a totally foreign concept. We have no experience with it. But imagine it. It’s expected to be what’s “outside” our universe (recall Einstein's quote), and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s what’s “inside” Black Holes.

Now, suppose that, in such “total nothingness”, a fluctuation occurs – with always, in total, nothing present. The fluctuation can be of anything, generating any paired set of quantum variables ("paired" in the sense of both "positive" and "negative" components) of "quantities" such as spin, charge, charm, color… or energy.

In particular, imagine a fluctuation that consists of a small amount of positive energy plus an equal small amount of negative energy. In total: nothing. Then, imagine that the fluctuation vanishes. Still nothing.

Quantum mechanics shows that such fluctuations, creating “virtual particles" (particles and their anti-particles, i.e., positive and negative energy) go on continuously.

Now, though, suppose that the positive-energy side of the fluctuation “precipitates” (in the form of a “string of energy” or an elementary particle) and thereby is unavailable to mate with its negative partner. The marriage is broken, irreversibly.

That causes major problems: when the original, balanced fluctuation can’t disappear (because the “positive side” of energy formed a precipitate), the result cascades, leading to the Big Bang. Read Hawking's quote again.

And that’s Tryon's point.

If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities [and that seems to be correct], then it [the universe] may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum, the vacuum of some larger space in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things [that] happen from time to time.
And in response to your:

Energy doesn't mean nothing nor does it mean a zero... by definition it is a fundamental entity, and entities don't come from zero
I think that the only reasonable thing for me to do is shake my head in sadness, try to shake the sadness off, and go to bed.
Reply

جوري
03-16-2007, 03:59 AM
The problem isn't in how many times you hammer it in...fact is if you gave what you wrote some "thought" as you like to readily prescribe you'd see how so very flawed your argument is to the core! it isn't a concept with which we have no experience and requires some abstract thought, it is in fact a conjecture! If it weren't you wouldn't need all these seemingly circular arguments-- You'll have an easier time selling fava bean to a person suffering from G6PD deficiency than you will the above! frankly I'll have to concur with your need to go to bed... maybe the random firing of your neurons at night will make you see things more clearly... and if not...(ne sois pas triste!).... the sadness and the going to bed will nullify each other out and equal to zero emotion. I really hope this is the last of it--- I detest Jadal (vain discourse) and this is the very definition of it--
peace !
Reply

zoro
03-16-2007, 02:46 PM
purestambrosia:

Sleep suggested another way that you might see it. The question that I’d have you consider is: What’s here? What is this universe?

The obvious response to that question is that an enormous amount is “here” – but is that so?

You stated that you took first-year physics, so I trust that you saw the first principle of electrostatics (the conservation of electrical charge): electrical charge can never be created or destroyed. So, if that’s the case for the entire universe, then the total electrical charge in the universe (summing over both positive and negative charges) is exactly zero.

Now consider momentum. In your physics course, I trust you saw that momentum is always conserved in a closed system. The universe is such a system. Therefore, if the principle is valid for the entire universe and if there was no momentum before the Big Bang, then the total momentum in the universe must still be zero.

You might have also seen that similar is true also for angular momentum. So, in this universe, the total linear and angular momentum (or spin) must sum to exactly zero.

Now, consider energy. In your physics course, I trust that you also saw the first “law” of thermodynamics: energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Therefore, in total, counting all mass to be its equivalent “positive energy” (via E = mc^2) and accounting for all the negative energy of “space”, the total energy of the universe is zero.

So now, again: in this universe, what’s here? Answer: nothing! No electric charge, no momentum, no energy, no “whatever else that’s conserved”.

Consequently, if (as seems to be the case) that, in total, there’s nothing “here”, then the next obvious questions are: How was this universe created and why do we perceive this “nothing” as “something”?

Such questions lead to the suggestions that I tried to show you yesterday: that the original “total nothingness” was split into positive and negative components (by, it’s assumed, some symmetry-breaking fluctuation in the “original total void”, leading to the Big Bang), and now, here we are, living on and in the “positive side of existence” (especially as the “positive side of energy”, which we call mass), while all about us is the “negative side” (especially the “negative side of energy”, which we call “space” or “the vacuum”).

[And by the way: if you object (or if anyone objects, including your physics prof) that the universe does seem to have some positive entropy, then before writing on that topic, please go to that Advanced Physics thread that I referenced in an earlier post (the thread is labeled “The Tao of Physics and the Zen of Zero”) – and I would recommend that you contribute there, instead of here, since more knowledgeable responses will more likely appear. Further, before contributing there, please read the paper that I referenced, there, about time going in the opposite direction in negative-energy space (which seems to resolve some quantum mechanical dilemmas) and carefully consider how to define entropy of space if, in it, time goes in the opposite direction. As you can see there, I’ve made (extremely tentative!) suggestions about how the entropy of space might be defined so that, as positive entropy increase “on our side of reality” (in accordance with the second principle of thermo), the entropy of space would become increasingly negative, as the universe expands – thereby tentatively suggesting that the total entropy of the universe is also zero.]
Reply

جوري
03-16-2007, 03:09 PM
You know what the problem really is... and if you search in your posts you'll pick the words right up
1- (If you can accept)
2-(If we can get you to believe)
3-(Now suppose)
4-if you'd listen to the "Experts"..
5(such laws seem to suggest)
and then you resort to some temper tantrums of "Duh" and the clue here is to "think"

This has absolutely nothing to do with the laws of physics that we readily know and learn in basic courses-- this has nothing to do with energy, or momentum, or torque or or or... this has to do with a flaw at the very core from which all else sprang forth....... you can tweak it... you can add extra dressing-- you can make it sound intelligent... but it isn't-- it is still poetic physics... even if I were to "accept" the ludicrous claim of a zero dividing--- even if it were to miraculously happen using your ill-conceived example of hair and comb of which we explained in simple terms exactly what has happened in terms of passing charges already in existence!.. it would still end (at just that)-- two charges of opposite polarity! not a complex organ system, not different life forms, not a differentiation into shapes not a universe --not a periodic table of elements, not millions of bacteria, not 19 types of collagen, not well thought out systems doing exactly their perspective job to keep it all running.... There is thought here! an intelligent thought! that you cannot duplicate or prove with a zero dividing.......'tis true as in the noble book-- those who appreciate the magistrate of G-D are ones who possess knowledge (the scientists who can see the big picture) not the quasi intellects!
وَمِ
نَ النَّاسِ وَالدَّوَابِّ وَالْأَنْعَامِ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ {28}

[35:28] And of men and beasts and cattle are various species of it likewise; those of His servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.!...

Your zenzero seems like a fantastic sci-fi thriller... and you can get a teenager to get all excited about it. I am sure it meets with the approval of some of your buddies in atheism!... you can try some character assassination of my fund of knowledge in physics or lack thereof... I think it is beneath me at this point to go through my resume... I won't get into your head and make assumptions of what it is you conceive to be a Muslim woman-- but I didn't get this far by accepting things at face value!.. I certainly didn't become Muslim having been born to Muslim parents... I gave this the bulk of my years, my thoughts, my being! and a zero dividing ain't gonna change that!...

If I am going to readily believe something it will be in the magistrate of the lord of the Heavens and the Earth-- and you can keep and perpetuate you sci-fi thriller.. and it is what it is-- a fantastic theory..... and this is really all the time I intend to dedicate to it-- at this point the time has come for us to move on!

peace!
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zoro
03-16-2007, 04:33 PM
Okay. I'll accept that challenge. Your move.
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zoro
03-18-2007, 12:40 PM
paarsurry:

There is no doubt that scientific method, is a source of knowledge, but it is not the only source of knowledge.
I agree.

Even those who would believe in it as a tool of knowledge, may not be scientists themselves strictly speaking.
I totally agree! I’d say even go so far as to say that every one of us starts to learn the scientific method before our parents permit us out of our cribs! It’s normally described as “learning by experience.” We continue to learn it before we enter school. Further, I advocate that all children, upon entering school, should be shown that they have already learned so much via the scientific method – and I’m very pleased to see that many schools are now doing this, describing the method with “cute phrases” such as “Guess, test, and guess again.”

Maybe there is a scientist who is at the first level of using scientific method in his own field but he does not know much of the other branches of science and hence in his own field he is on the first level but in some other field in which he has studied something or nothing, so in those braches of science he would be genuinely at second level or at the third level, and he would frankly admit it.
Oh, yes, I agree again – although I’d be careful to distinguish “scientific knowledge” (in which, as you point out, everyone has deficiencies) and the “scientific method” (in which even “pre-schoolers” demonstrate their competences).

There may be some people who are not scientists but believe in science as a religion, for which even the science would not support them. They may believe in what they perhaps term as Scientology while they think they are using scientific method, unknowingly as a cover only, actually they are not entitled to it genuinely.
I agree that such is unfortunately the case.

Then there are fields which are genuinely out of the science realm, hence out of its jurisdiction.
Well, that comment causes me to pause. Maybe I can agree with you if the “fields” are some of our amazing flights of imagination – but even in that case, I’m reluctant to suggest that, say, a thousand years from now, people still won’t be able to apply the scientific method to gain knowledge about our imaginations. Maybe you’d give me some example of the “fields” that you were considering.

I therefore request you to please read my last post carefully…
I would be glad to, but please: where is it? I searched for it on this thread, but didn’t see it. Maybe I just missed it (in the heat of other communications). If you have difficulty providing a link, please just describe its location in words.

The human life, a thinking machine with sentiments and a sense of morals; its entire problems do not fall in the realm of science (which generally relate to the material/physical human problems) though we don’t deny its usefulness in its own realm.
Careful of that, however, because science has recently made major progress understanding the evolutionary bases and sociological underpinnings of morals. For example, see the studies by the behavioral scientist E.O. Wilson and, e.g., the 2004 book entitled The Science of Good and Evil – Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, and Follow the Golden Rule by Michael Shermer. In particular, notice again that in the title of Shermer’s book he uses the phrase “The Science of Good and Evil.” You might even want to glance at the chapter entitled “Morality without Gods” in my online book at www.zenofzero.net .
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paarsurrey
03-20-2007, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
paarsurry:
I agree.
I would be glad to, but please: where is it? I searched for it on this thread, but didn’t see it. Maybe I just missed it (in the heat of other communications). If you have difficulty providing a link, please just describe its location in words.
I provide the quote again, which he said while discussing about hell:

Three types of knowledge
In these verses God Almighty has dearly set forth that for the wicked the life of hell begins in a covert way in this very world, and if they would reflect they would observe hell in this very life. Here God Almighty has indicated three types of knowledge, namely knowledge by certainty of reason, knowledge by certainty of sight, and knowledge by certainty of experience. This might be illustrated thus. When a person perceives smoke from a distance his mind conceives that smoke and fire are inseparable, and therefore where there is smoke there must be fire also. This would be knowledge by the certainty of reason. Then on a nearer approach he sees the flames of the fire and that is knowledge by the certainty of sight. Should he enter into the fire, that would be knowledge by the certainty of experience. In these verses God Almighty says that knowledge of the existence of hell as a certainty can be acquired in this life through reason, its knowledge through the certainty of sight will be acquired in Barzakh. The intermediate state between death and judgement, and on the Day of Judgement that knowledge would become a certainty by experience.
Unqoute
Thanks
Reply

zoro
03-20-2007, 10:35 AM
paarsurry:

Oh, wow, what you’ve introduced is a huge topic! In philosophy, it’s called the theory of knowledge (or epistemology, where ‘episteme’ is the Greek word for ‘knowledge’). You might want to investigate starting a new thread devoted to the topic, in this forum, or participate in discussions of epistemology at some of the many philosophy forums on the web. I consider the topic to be extremely important – even more important than the topic of this thread, i.e., “the purpose behind our existence”!

Yet, I would agree that all the topics are linked. For example, to address “the purpose behind our existence”, one should address the idea of ‘existence’ (the branch of philosophy called ‘ontology’), but to do that requires considerations about how one gains knowledge (epistemology), both about our existence and our purpose. And as I already stated (and as I explore in detail in my on-line book already referenced), my conclusion is that the fundamental assumption (or premiss) that each of us MUST make (an example in the branch of philosophy called “existentialism”) is how we will gain knowledge.

In view of the depth and breadth of the topic you raise, my response, here, will be extremely superficial – mostly to just list some “cautions”, more information about which you can easily find on the web.

1. When I agreed with your earlier statement that there are many different types of knowledge, I was thinking about some of our “instinctive” and “intuitive” knowledge. For example, instinctively we (as well as other animals) “know” how to keep our hearts beating. Also, intuitively we know that it’s beneficial to the survival of our species to be kind to one another (for example, a dolphin will swim under a wounded dolphin, periodically lifting it to the surface to breathe). Thus, through evolution, we’ve developed a “moral sense”. Similarly, all of us have capabilities to participate in various types of “mystical experiences”, through suppressing some parts of our brains while stimulating others, which is another huge topic and which is currently under intense scientific study (as you can find on the web). My caution, then, is to be careful when addressing such knowledge-topics, because not only are they huge, they’re continuously expanding.

2. In the “simpler case” (already tough enough!) of gaining knowledge about “the reality external to our minds”, care is also needed. For example, your quotation lists three methods, “knowledge by certainty of reason”, “knowledge by certainty of sight”, and “knowledge by certainty of experience”. One needs to be extremely careful, however, when applying all three.

For example, in the case of gaining “knowledge by certainty of sight”, sometimes are eyes can deceive us. For example, referring to your quotation, sometime you can see smoke but no fire.

In the case of gaining “knowledge by certainty of reason”, be extremely careful: thousands of years of experience have shown that the method is extremely dangerous! To explain that statement and to provide examples is too big a task to take up here (I try to do so in my referenced book). Here, therefore, let me just state that deductive reasoning can NEVER generate new information: all knowledge derived from deductive reasoning (even Einstein’s deduction of E = mc^2) is contained in the premisses.

And in the case of “knowledge by certainty of experience” (which is part of inductive logic and of the scientific method), once again one must be extremely careful, but this time because the method can never produce “certainty”. For example, although thousands of experiences may have shown you that your friend is reliable, yet next time, he may not be. That inadequacy with experience (first addressed carefully by the brilliant philosopher David Hume) is the reason why no longer do we use the term “scientific law”; instead, they’re called “scientific principles”, which are “experiences” not yet shown to be wrong. And for the same reason (as first addressed carefully by the brilliant philosopher Karl Popper) we no longer use the word “truth” in science, realizing that “truth” is a concept that has no meaning in the “open system” that we call “reality”; instead, the best we’re able to do is “muddle by” with principles not yet found to be wrong.

I’m sorry to be so superficial, but not only are the topics that you raise huge, I must now “beg off” from this thread (and this forum), since I have so much work to do, trying to post additional chapters of my book. Yet, while bidding “goodbye”, let me wish you well in your inquiries – and add my final “caution” to you, to accept no authority over your mind other than what reality dictates.
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