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islamirama
03-12-2007, 05:52 AM
Changing essence of Makkah
3/10/2007 - Social - Article Ref: NT0703-3251
By: Hassan M. Fattah
New York Times* -


MECCA, Saudi Arabia - Five times a day across the globe devout Muslims face this city in prayer, focused on a site where they believe Abraham built a temple to God. The spot is also the place Muslims are expected to visit at least once in their lives.

Now as they make the pilgrimage clothed in simple white cotton wraps, they will see something other than the stark black cube known as the Kaaba, which is literally the center of the Muslim world. They will also see Starbucks. And Cartier and Tiffany. And H&M and Topshop.

The Abraj al Bait Mall - one of the largest in Saudi Arabia, outfitted with flat-panel monitors with advertisements and announcements, neon lights, an amusement park ride, fast-food restaurants and a lingerie shop - has been built directly across from Islam's holiest site.

Not everyone considers this progress.

"Mecca is becoming like Las Vegas, and that is a disaster," said Ali al-Ahmed, director of the Institute for Gulf Affairs in Washington, a Saudi opposition research organization. "It will have a disastrous effect on Muslims because going to Mecca will have no feeling. There is no charm anymore. All you see is glass and cement."

The mall, which opened a week before the annual pilgrimage, called the hajj, in December, is the first phase in a $13 billion construction boom in Mecca that promises to change how this city, forbidden to everyone but Muslims, looks and feels.

The Abraj al Bait housing and hotel complex, a 1.5-million-square-yard development that will include a towering hotel, has begun to redraw the skyline of this ancient religious city.

When the project is completed in 2009, it will include the seventh tallest building in the world, its developers say, with a hospital, hotels and prayer halls. A public-announcement system pipes in prayers from the Grand Mosque across the way, and worshipers can join the masses simply by opening their draperies.

In nearby Jabal Omar, an entire mountain is being flattened to make way for a huge hotel and high-rise complex. And elsewhere, cranes dot the skyline with up to 130 new high-rise towers planned for the area.

"This is the end of Mecca," said Dr. Irfan Ahmed in London. He has formed the Islamic Heritage Foundation to try to preserve the Islamic history of Mecca, Medina, the second holiest city, and other important religious sites in Saudi Arabia. "Before, even in the days of the Ottomans, none of the buildings in Mecca towered higher than the Grand Mosque. Now these are much higher and more disrespectful."

Money is certainly one of the motivators in the building boom. Every year, up to four million people descend on this city during the pilgrimage, while a stream continues to flow through here during the year, spending an average $2,000 to $3,000 to stay, eat and shop.

Billboards along the way to Mecca remind investors of the potential earnings from owning an apartment here; some claim a 25 percent return on investment. Advertisements on Arab satellite television channels remind viewers that "you, too, can have the opportunity to enjoy this blessed view."
Muhammad al-Abboud, a real estate agent, recounts tales of Pakistani businessmen plunking down $15 million to buy several apartments at a time. Saudi princes own entire floors.

A three-bedroom apartment here runs about $3 million, Mr. Abboud said. One directly overlooking the Grand Mosque can reach $5 million.
Critics of the development complain that the result is gated communities where worshipers can separate themselves from the crowds, thereby violating the spirit of the hajj, where all stand equal before God.

"All of Mecca is a sanctuary," Mr. Abboud said. "So how could something like this not be snapped up?" But some groups say the building boom also has religious motives. They accuse the archconservative Salafi, who hold great sway in Saudi Arabia, of seeking to eliminate historic spots, fearing that these sites would become objects of worship themselves.

Dr. Ahmed of London has cataloged the destruction of more than 300 separate antiquity sites, including cemeteries and mosques. He says the house where the Prophet Muhammad lived was razed and today a dilapidated library, with its windows and doors shuttered, stands in its place.

"It is not respecting the Kaaba, not respecting the house of God or the environment of the sanctuary," Sami Angawi, a Saudi architect who wants to preserve Mecca's heritage, said of the development. "You are not supposed to even cut a tree in this city, so how could you blow up a mountain? The Islamic laws have been broken."

Progress has exacted a heavy price in Mecca. More pilgrims than ever can come here, thanks to billions spent on tunnels and infrastructure to accommodate them. But in exchange, the city's once famed night market, where pilgrims brought their wares to sell, is gone. The Meccan homes and buildings that filled the area near the mosque were demolished in the 1970s to enlarge the mosque. The neighborhoods and families who lived near the mosque and welcomed pilgrims have long since moved away.
Mecca has long been a commercial as well as a religious center, but increasingly global brands dominate here.

Mr. Angawi, the Saudi architect, has led a lonely campaign within the kingdom to bring attention to the destruction of the historic sites. Dr. Ahmed has worked to lobby Asian and Arab governments to press the Saudis to stop such demolitions. And Mr. Ahmed, in Washington, has built a database of the historic spots now destroyed. Many Muslims inside and outside Saudi Arabia have remained silent about the issues, they say, fearing the loss of financing from Saudi Arabia for religious institutions and projects.

Saudi officials say they have been painstakingly preserving the Islamic artifacts they find, and operate two small museums in Mecca. In all, they say, more than $19 billion has been spent on preserving the country's Muslim heritage. They dismiss their critics as cranks who have no following.
Developers and real estate agents, meanwhile, say the construction makes room for even more Muslims to take part in the hajj, and therefore serves the greater good.

That suggests that the changes are far from over.

"Mecca has never been changed like it has now," Mr. Angawi said. "What you see now is only 10 percent of what's to come. What is coming is much, much worse."
Hassan M. Fattah writing for The New York Times



http://www.iviews.com/Articles/artic...ef=NT0703-3251


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Count DeSheep
03-12-2007, 05:05 PM
That's horrible. It's a holy city! Do you know if the government has said why it's doing all these things?

Destroying the house the Messenger of Islam grew up in, building over cemetaries...How can that be for the greater good? What am I not seeing? >.<
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north_malaysian
03-13-2007, 02:10 AM
amusement park in Mecca? :omg:
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syilla
03-13-2007, 02:47 AM
i heard there is baskin robins in makkah...

in malaysia that ice cream is expensive. lol
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allah-akbar
03-13-2007, 03:12 AM
This is very sad that they are making major changes to the holy site, and about the starbucks, malls and so on.. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY? people don't go to haj for shopping or visiting starbucks... This is just not approperiate for the site and the people.
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Asyur an-Nagi
03-13-2007, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
i heard there is baskin robins in makkah...

in malaysia that ice cream is expensive. lol
yea. i've been there ( at the baskin n robbins). it was expensive still.
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E'jaazi
03-13-2007, 04:16 AM
The Prophet (Salallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) warned us when he said (paraphrased) "Islam will return to Medinah like a snake retreats to its hole (when all the other muslim countries turn corrupt). It is sad, but it has been foretold.
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BlissfullyJaded
03-13-2007, 04:33 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by allah-akbar
This is very sad that they are making major changes to the holy site, and about the starbucks, malls and so on.. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY? people don't go to haj for shopping or visiting starbucks... This is just not approperiate for the site and the people.
Not exactly true. While the Saudi's are doing it for the revenue, the hujjaj are game to it. If the hujjaj don't want to eat at Pizza Hut, Baskin Robbins, or Starbucks, go on shopping sprees, or stay at Hilton Towers, they don't have to. Nobody's forcing them into it. There are other alternatives. They prefer that, and they get it. Fair play.

Rasulullah (Sallallaho Alaihi Wassallam) once said: "Near the time of Qiyamah the rich ones from amongst my Ummah will perform Hajj for the sake of travel and holidays; The middle class will perform Hajj for commercial purposes, thereby transporting goods from here to there while bringing commercial goods from there to here; the ulama will perform Hajj for the sake of show and fame; The poor will perform Hajj for the purposes of begging." (Kanzul Aamaal)
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E'jaazi
03-13-2007, 06:53 AM
That is truly sad.
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Count DeSheep
03-13-2007, 09:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jawharah
Not exactly true. While the Saudi's are doing it for the revenue, the hujjaj are game to it. If the hujjaj don't want to eat at Pizza Hut, Baskin Robbins, or Starbucks, go on shopping sprees, or stay at Hilton Towers, they don't have to. Nobody's forcing them into it. There are other alternatives. They prefer that, and they get it. Fair play.
Building over graves and destroying historical sites is hardly fair play. Why stop with Muhammad's house? Why not destroy the Kaaba too? Or move it someplace where it doesn't get in the way of the new Dairy Queen that's moving in. :raging:

Rasulullah (Sallallaho Alaihi Wassallam) once said: "Near the time of Qiyamah the rich ones from amongst my Ummah will perform Hajj for the sake of travel and holidays; The middle class will perform Hajj for commercial purposes, thereby transporting goods from here to there while bringing commercial goods from there to here; the ulama will perform Hajj for the sake of show and fame; The poor will perform Hajj for the purposes of begging." (Kanzul Aamaal)
O.O

So he's saying that nobody's going to Makkah because it's their duty to make the pilgrimage, but because of the personal gain to be made?
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Isaac
03-13-2007, 09:34 AM
Hajj for many people has turned into a holiday, rather than an act of ibada. I hate to say it but I see alot of fitna being introduced to the holy sites, especially Mecca. People are game for it, but does that mean the Saudi Governemnt should bring in those companies that support the killing of their muslim brothers? Does that mean they should wipe at all of historical sites, does that mean they should turn Mecca into New York? Does that mean that the fulfill the desires and distract those people who are on hajj away from their deed.

The whole idea of even having such places withing 10 metres from the haramain was a mistake. They have surrounded the haramin with lofty buidlings, fast food restaraunts, 5* hotels and malls, without taking into consideration the people and their safety, the poor, and the weak.

You know, my heart just felt when i saw the haji's from poorer nations walking for miles just to get to their hotel, which because of their distance met their financial capabilities, walking past while i sat and ate from the restaraunts, carrying their belongings and making a trip of a lifetime, with all their life savings and a trip which they probably would never even dream of making again. Sitting in the courtyard of the harmains with all their belongings. What about their needs? what about meeting what they are game for? You know hajj is suppose to show no difference between the rich and the poor as to the sunnah of the time of muhammed [saw], but now its a totally different concept. Its about reading you salat from your hotel room, which is adjacnet to the harmain, its about walking the mallls at the time of tarawee paryer, because some consider it a bid'a, optional but find it more beneficial to walk the malls and get abite to to eat, when the imaam is leading prayer.

It is good that they have made facilities for people to stay, but why is there such a difference between the ones adjacent to the harmain and those not so adjacent. simple, its about meeting the demands of the rich and profiting on their hajj. since when did hajj ever require staying in a 5*start hotel, what was wrong with making 2* or 3* hotels, and to see half if not mroe of these rooms being vacant is the worse.

May Allah protect the hajis from fitnah and protect the harmain from evil intentions/
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rubiesand
03-13-2007, 09:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Issac
May Allah protect the hajis from fitnah and protect the harmain from evil intentions
Ameen.
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S_87
03-13-2007, 12:19 PM
:sl:

theres like 3 baskin and robbins in the hilton mall and its cheap and tastes so nice.

the abraj al bait is masssssssive <_< but inside is also reallllllly nice.
i think theres gonig to be bowling in there to because on the advertisement there was bowling pics.

regarding blowing up mountains for hotels you have to realise though every year more and more pilgrims are coming they need to stay somewhere! and to add to that there are like 1 million people living in makkah itself and they go about life just how everyone else does. it doesnt mean because they live in makkah they dont like stuff like other people do. yes makkah has amusement parks but thats not exactly next to the Haram
and the women there like shopping just like any other women so yes there are malls. and during peak time these malls round the haram are filled with the pilgrims not the locals.
the article states 'and a lingerie shop' is there something wrong with that? the side corner shops sell womens stuff no one picks that out???

and to blame it on the salafis is absolutely absurd. its the govt with the contract given to the bin laden group thats building all these things and the reason why some historical sites have been taken out is because people used to go WORSHIP there and theres nothing worse than shirk

and this article dont mention that with the tall buildings the haram itself is tall. because as time has come more people need space and so its been built having 4 floors all together. and so those people coming need a place to stay?

and what building over graves has been done? i remember reading one article on this but it was totally false so please provide??

all in all regarding the abraj al bait i find it tooooooooo tall it should be smaller, but regarding building hotels people need a place to stay.

i took a pic of it- here it is



and heres their site
http://abrajalbait.com/main.html
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Helena
03-13-2007, 12:33 PM
i have been provided this thru email..i was about to post it...but felt unappropriate and uncomfortable as it may become or be referred to backchatting...

i know its absolutely disaster..its a sign...of the day of judgement.....

but we as muslims shud act upon on it....but how?????...ya Allah...ppl wil be going there will weak imaan...and will travel back with no change or fear.....

ya Allah....
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BlissfullyJaded
03-13-2007, 03:21 PM
:sl:

Building over graves and destroying historical sites is hardly fair play. Why stop with Muhammad's house? Why not destroy the Kaaba too? Or move it someplace where it doesn't get in the way of the new Dairy Queen that's moving in.
Which graces? Anyway, knocking down the Kaabah would be knocking down something that is clearly in the Quran and Sunnah as a place of worship, whereas nowhere in the Quran and Sunnah is the birthplace of Sayyidina Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) a place of worship. To be honest, I do agree that they should have preserved it but just locked access to it so that people could just see what it looked like, but wouldn't be able to attain "blessings" from it.

I wouldn't say Abraj al Bait is the best way to house the hujjaj, because the masses won't be able to stay there. If the prices are anything like Hilton, and I'm guessing its higher than Hilton, it won't really be affordable for anybody besides the wealthy.

Aside from that, I do agree with sis amani. :thumbs_up
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Maimunah
03-13-2007, 03:24 PM
subhanalah!!

:w:
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Count DeSheep
03-13-2007, 05:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jawharah
Which graces?
Graces? :?

Anyway, knocking down the Kaabah would be knocking down something that is clearly in the Quran and Sunnah as a place of worship, whereas nowhere in the Quran and Sunnah is the birthplace of Sayyidina Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) a place of worship.
If there was a mosque built next to the pyramids, the Easter Island statues, or your own home, would you be very happy if they wanted to knock down those structures so they could build a hotel, fast food restaurant, or some other thing next to the mosque? Or would you be upset, because walking a few minutes down the road for a cheeseburger isn't so horrible?
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Isaac
03-14-2007, 01:15 PM
Attaining blessings from the relics of Nabi [saw] is a bad thing? Not everybody that sees the historical artifacts that belonged to our Nabi [saw] commit shirk.

It was wrong to demloish the birthplace or our Nabi [saw], due to the simple fact that it did not intefere with the hajjis. Demolished and replaced with what? Or was it that it did not fit in with the up and coming modern look of surrounding of the harmain?

A car Park on the birth place of the Prophet (saw), Bulldozed and Gasoline poured on the grave of the mother of the Prophet (saw), Lavatories built on the house of Sayyedah Khadijah (sa). What is wrong with these people. Do they have nor respect for the history which comes with our Nabi [saw]

By: Nabil Raza

The paper said there is a growing shadow being cast over Islam's holiest site. Only a few metres from the walls of the Grand Mosque in Makkah skyscrapers are reaching further into the sky, slowly blocking out the light. These enormous and garish newcomers now dwarf the elegant black granite of the Kaaba, the focal point of the four million Muslims' annual Haj pilgrimage.

The tower blocks are the latest and largest evidence of the destruction of Islamic heritage that has wiped almost all of the historic city from the physical landscape. As revealed in The Independent last August, the historic cities of Makkah and Medinah are under an unprecedented assault from religious zealots and their commercial backers.

Writing in response to the article, Prince Turki al-Faisal said that Saudi Arabia was spending more than $19bn (£11bn) preserving and maintaining these two holy sites. "[We are aware] how important the preservation of this heritage is, not just to us but to the millions of Muslims from around the world who visit the two holy mosques every year. It is hardly something we are going to allow to be destroyed."

This rebuttal sits at odds with a series of previously unseen photographs, published today, that document the demolition of key archaeological sites and their replacement with skyscrapers.

The report further said Saudi religious authorities have overseen a decades-long demolition campaign that has cleared the way for developers to embark on a building spree of multi-storey hotels, restaurants, shopping centres and luxury apartment blocks on a scale unseen outside Dubai. The driving force behind this historical demolition is *******sm the austere state faith that the House of Saud brought with it when Ibn Saud conquered the Arabian peninsula in the 1920s.



The *******s live in fanatical fear that places of historical or religious interest could give rise to alternative forms of pilgrimage or worship. Their obsession with combating idolatry has seen them flatten all evidence of a past that does not agree with their interpretation of Islam.

Irfan Ahmed al-Alawi, the chairman of the Islamic Heritage Foundation, set up to help protect the holy sites, says the case of the grave of Amina bint Wahb (as), the mother of the Prophet (saw), found in 1998, is typical of what has happened. "It was bulldozed in Abwa and gasoline was poured on it. Even though thousands of petitions throughout the Muslim world were sent, nothing could stop this action."

Today there are fewer than 20 structures remaining in Makkah that date back to the time of the Prophet (saw) 1,400 years ago. The litany of this lost history includes the house of Khadijah (sa), the wife of the Prophet (saw), demolished to make way for public lavatories; the house of Abu Bakr, the Prophet's companion, now the site of the local Hilton hotel; the house of Ali-Oraid, the grandson of the Prophet, and the Mosque of abu-Qubais, now the location of the King's palace in Makkah.

Yet the same oil-rich dynasty that pumped money into the Taliban regime as they blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan six years ago has so far avoided international criticism for similar acts of vandalism at home.



Mai Yamani, author of The Cradle of Islam, said it was time for other Muslim governments to ignore the al-Sauds' oil wealth and clout and speak out. "What is alarming about this is that the world doesn't question the al-Sauds' custodianship of Islam's two holy places. These are the sites that are of such importance to over one billion Muslims and yet their destruction is being ignored," she said. "When the Prophet was insulted by Danish cartoonists thousands of people went into the streets to protest. The sites related to the Prophet are part of their heritage and religion but we see no concern from Muslims."

Lay people, and in some cases even US senators could be forgiven for thinking that the House of Saud has been the guardian of the two holy places for time immemorial. In fact, it is only 80 years since the tribal chieftain Ibn Saud occupied Makkah and Medinah. The House of Saud has been bound to *******sm since the 18th century religious reformer Mohamed Ibn Abdul-Wahab signed a pact with Mohammed bin Saud in 1744. Wahab's warrior zealots helped to conquer a kingdom for the tribal chieftains. The House of Saud got its wealth and power, and the clerics got the vehicle of state they needed to spread their fundamentalist ideology around the world. The ruler of this fledgling kingdom needed the legitimacy afforded by declaring himself “custodian of the two holy places".

But that legitimacy has come at an enormous price for the diversity of Muslims who look to Makkah for guidance. Once in charge, the *******sts wasted little time in censoring the Haj. As early as 1929, Egyptian pilgrims were refused permission to celebrate the colourful Mahmal rites and more than 30 were killed. At the time Egypt severed diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia. Few governments have stood up to them since.

Instead, the homogenisation of Islam's holiest sites was allowed to accelerate into a demolition campaign that now threatens the birthplace of the Prophet itself. The site survived the early reign of Ibn Saud 50 years ago when the architect for the planned library persuaded the absolute ruler to allow him to preserve the remains under the new structure. Saudi authorities now plan to "update" the site with a car park that would mean concreting over the remains.

"The al-Sauds need to rein in the *******sts now," warns Dr Yamani. "Makkah used to be a symbol of Muslim diversity and it needs to be again." But with oil prices and profits, at record highs, there is little sign the House of Saud is listening.
Sami Angawi, a Hijazi architect who has devoted his life to a largely doomed effort to preserve what remains of the history of the world's greatest pilgrimage sites, said that the final farewell to Makkah was imminent. “What we are witnessing are the last days of Makkah and Medinah."

Makkah's skyline

Giant cranes and half-constructed skyscrapers tower over the Grand Mosque in Makkah. Six new property developments, including the Bin Laden group's Zam Zam Tower, are transforming the character of Islam's holiest city

Mountain of light

The mountain of light, or al-Nour, is next in the *******s' sights. Home to the Hira'a cave, it was here that the Prophet is said to have received the first verses of the Quran. Hardline clerics want it destroyed to stop pilgrims visiting. At the foot of the hill there is a ******* fatwa: “The Prophet Mohamed (saw) did not permit us to climb on to this hill, not to pray here, not to touch stones, and tie knots on trees..."

The Prophet's wife's grave

The ruins in the foreground are the remains of the grave of the Prophet's wife, Al Baqi, destroyed in the 1950s. The mutawi religious police are present night and day to prevent anyone placing flowers on the site, or even praying in the proximity of the graves

Al Oraid Mosque

The 1,200-year-old mosque, site of the grave of the Prophet's grandson al-Oraid, is seen here being dynamited. Gathered around the site are Saudi religious police with their distinctive red scarves, who appear to be celebrating
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S_87
03-14-2007, 01:34 PM
:sl:

Irfan Ahmed al-Alawi, the chairman of the Islamic Heritage Foundation, set up to help protect the holy sites, says the case of the grave of Amina bint Wahb (as), the mother of the Prophet (saw), found in 1998, is typical of what has happened. "It was bulldozed in Abwa and gasoline was poured on it. Even though thousands of petitions throughout the Muslim world were sent, nothing could stop this action."
umm if i recall correctly action was taken after 2000. there was more than 1 grave and people used to go there seeking blessing not sure which grave it was. they MOVED the graves to jannatul baqi....

The litany of this lost history includes the house of Khadijah (sa), the wife of the Prophet (saw), demolished to make way for public lavatories; the house of Abu Bakr, the Prophet's companion, now the site of the local Hilton hotel; the house of Ali-Oraid, the grandson of the Prophet, and the Mosque of abu-Qubais, now the location of the King's palace in Makkah.
hmmm well why not not use the toilets (of which theres only like two plots of toilets anyhow, and why not go see the actualy kidmat done to the haram? every single plot around the Kabah has some historical significance, how about they didnt build the Haram the way it is now?


not to pray here, not to touch stones, and tie knots on trees..."
and is ther something wrong with this?
they have signs at the graves in uhud saying dont make dua to the graves its shirk. i bet some people dont even like that and completely ignore it and pray.

The ruins in the foreground are the remains of the grave of the Prophet's wife, Al Baqi, destroyed in the 1950s. The mutawi religious police are present night and day to prevent anyone placing flowers on the site, or even praying in the proximity of the graves
again Alhumdulillah may Allah bless the people who have done this. they only razed the tombs which is NOT allowed. they are only preventing shirk. is that so bad? answer yourself. why would someone want to go put flowers on a grave totally kuffar style? why would someone want to go pray by graves, and worship them???


last but not least this article makes it sound as with all these things being done the Haramain have been left in some kind of dilapitated way. when in actual fact they actually outshine everything being done around them.
may Allah assist those who seek to prevent bidah and shirk in any way possible.
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vpb
03-14-2007, 01:44 PM
[MOUSE]inshaAllah one day I will go there :laugh: [/MOUSE]
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Isaac
03-14-2007, 02:50 PM
What do you mean by praying by the graves? And who worships graves apart from the illeterate. Instead of demolishing anything or everything that in someway or another CAN lead to shirk, why not educate the people. People commit shrik at the blessed grave of our Nabi [saw], what do you suggest we do there? That is a raised grave, people pray beside that grave, but that is one grave that Allah has protected and will protect until the end of time.

Yes may Allah protect and and assist those that aim to prevent bid'a and shirk. And May Allah protect the harmains from the evil inetntions of those that aim to exploit that which Allah has ordained on all that are able and keep it free from the bid'a of dividing the hajis into rich and poor.
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S_87
03-14-2007, 03:53 PM
:sl:
actually a lot of people worship graves and further more think it is part of islam. educating is fine, do these people listen? they do the type of things these articles have done. know what that is?
oh its you Wa-ha-bi extremists saying all this. blah blah blah.
for the grave of Muhammed :arabic5: they have people there trying to prevent it as much as possible. of course they arent going to do anything there just like they havent done anything in al Baqi.
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habibti4allah7
03-14-2007, 03:59 PM
omg that outrageous! i cant believe that they will actually do something like that. mecca is our hearts, is everything to us muslims. i would not support this at all. and to think that starbucks helps support the israeli miltary. NO MORE STARBUCKS FOR ME!
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-14-2007, 04:46 PM
:sl:

I think some people need to remind themselves of the time when Umar r.a. cut down the tree of Hudaiybiyyah (which is even mentioned in the Qur'an) when some people started trying to seek Barakah from it and when they took it as a place of worship. Educate the people AND cut down the paths to shirk.

format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
What do you mean by praying by the graves? And who worships graves apart from the illeterate. Instead of demolishing anything or everything that in someway or another CAN lead to shirk, why not educate the people. People commit shrik at the blessed grave of our Nabi [saw], what do you suggest we do there? That is a raised grave, people pray beside that grave, but that is one grave that Allah has protected and will protect until the end of time.
Actually I can confirm that it is completly flat Alhamdullilah. The pictures circling on the internet are false.
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Count DeSheep
03-14-2007, 07:16 PM
Isaac, thanks for posting that whatchamacallit. So sad.

All these things that are happening in Makkah...You'd think the Americans got to it. The non-Muslim Americans. It's disgraceful. Demolishing historically important sites, mosques, and graves doesn't even get a raised eyebrow. I thought that the clergy in Saudi Arabia was the top government. If it is, why is it letting these things happen?
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rubiesand
03-14-2007, 07:19 PM
I don't know what these demolishers think gives them the right to destroy a heritage that belongs to all Muslims. They don't own it.
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snakelegs
03-14-2007, 07:42 PM
i've wondered about this for a long time. why isn't there a huge outcry from world muslims - do most not know about this?
the saudi government does not own these sites - they belong to the "ummah", past, present and future.
to destroy something on the pretext that shirk may be done there is about as rational as doing away with teaspoons because some use them for heroin.
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Muezzin
03-14-2007, 07:51 PM
It's true that some people take 'respecting historical sites' to the unacceptable level of 'worshipping at historical sites as if they are shrines'. However, this does not, in my eyes, justifiy utterly destroying said historical sites.

Also, building a Las Vegas-style hotel that overshadows the Kaaba is disgusting.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-14-2007, 07:55 PM
Astaghfirullah. Thats so WRONG :(
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- Qatada -
03-14-2007, 07:57 PM
I don't like the starbucks idea and making Makkah into a whole shopping mall idea. But i do agree with the fact that it is a muslims duty to flatten the graves of those whose graves are raised over a handspan as stated in Sahih Muslim to Ali ibn Abi Talib.

The reasons for this is because the christians and jews fell into the same mistake of building places of worship over their pious peoples' graves, and then they would invoke them instead of Allaah who should be worshipped Alone. [Laa illaaha illaahu - there is none worthy of worship except He.] And dua' (supplication/invoking) should be done only to Him Alone as this is the core of worship. And Allaah knows best.
Reply

IceQueen~
03-14-2007, 08:02 PM
Isn't it obvious?
remember the hadeeth of the prophet (saw) when he said that
a time will come when the enemies of Islam will invite eachother to attack the ummah as if inviting eachother to a meal

when the companions (ra) asked if this would be because of the muslims being small in number at that time they were told- no, but in fact the muslims will be large in number but-

they will fear death and have the love of this world in their hearts

(those aren't the exact words of the hadeeth but that is the jist)

the kaaba is being surrounded by 'worldly' things to distract the pilgrims from worship?

this isn't the first time the 'dunya' has been used by the enemies of the Muslims to defeat them
only, in the past they were too strong in their faith so it didn't work but for the weak ones

but when they did finally leave the Quran and Islam and got too involved in the dunya look what happened to them

look at the state we're in today, I mean some of us don't even pray never mind anything else...

May Allah Guide us, and unite us on His true path...amiin
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-14-2007, 08:03 PM
Ameen to the Du'as....=\
Reply

S_87
03-14-2007, 09:17 PM
:sl:

oh to add to this :)

Makkah to Get World’s Tallest Clock Tower

Reply

Isaac
03-15-2007, 08:52 AM
I found this really interesting article on the topic of raised graves, which just makes it sound even more confusing.

http://www.***********/fiqh/domes_on_graves.htm
Reply

- Qatada -
03-15-2007, 01:10 PM
:salamext:


Brother Isaac, we can't contradict what the Messenger of Allaah himself said - especially since it's authentic and in saheeh Muslim. :) If you want, i'll try searching for the full hadith which is said by Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allaah be pleased with him) himself.
Reply

Count DeSheep
03-15-2007, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
I found this really interesting article on the topic of raised graves, which just makes it sound even more confusing.

http://www.***********/fiqh/domes_on_graves.htm
The only confusing thing I can find is that it's a censored link...>.<

What do you say to get yourself censored in every post? :omg:

format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Brother Isaac, we can't contradict what the Messenger of Allaah himself said - especially since it's authentic and in saheeh Muslim. :)
Can you see words where I see >*< them thingehs?
Reply

Isaac
03-15-2007, 04:32 PM
I really dont get why that site was censored. Either the mods have been working overtime and just censor anyting that begins with the letter s or what not.

Ill try again http://www.***********/fiqh/domes_on_graves.htm.

WHATS so difficult its only got the word sunnah in it! thats ***********. Its like fill in the missing word on this forum. The mods need to take a break!
Reply

S_87
03-15-2007, 04:41 PM
:sl:

its censored because this website doesnt want to promote sufi websites i guess?
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-15-2007, 04:44 PM
:sl:

The article is by GF Haddad and such people are known for spreading false teachings. That is why we have blocked out certain sites. Ansar:
A site may be blocked if even a very small fraction of its content is not in accordance with our forum policy;
http://www.islamicboard.com/489544-post15.html
Reply

Isaac
03-16-2007, 08:58 AM
MashAllah. Talk about unity. So what does this forum promote or what jamat does it follow? Brother is it because the sheikh in mention is sufi orientated?
Reply

LFC
03-16-2007, 09:22 AM
Seems like they're trying to make Makkah like Dubai.

Very sad. :(
Reply

S_87
03-16-2007, 10:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
MashAllah. Talk about unity. So what does this forum promote or what jamat does it follow? Brother is it because the sheikh in mention is sufi orientated?
:sl:

im guessing its because

The article is by GF Haddad and such people are known for spreading false teachings
Reply

Isaac
03-16-2007, 10:47 AM
Yeh may be!

However there is this article, and a very very good article by that which is by a very well respected sheikh.

It just shows how some people can be so arrogant, and do takfeer on people without seeing things with an open mind. A well refuted artilce.

http://www.***************/forum/showthread.php?t=20256
Reply

Isaac
03-16-2007, 10:49 AM
You know what im not going to even bother with the links.

QUESTION 5:

Is it allowed to put flowers on the Qabr?

ANSWER:

It is narrated in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim that:

Once, while travelling, Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, stopped at a certain place and said that there was a grave in front of him, and that the person therein is busy suffering punishment. Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, then broke off two branches from a date palm and placed in on the grave, and said that as long as the branches were fresh, the punishment would be lessened.

This is because the fresh branches would be making the Dhikr of Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala. So this act is a Sunnah, and people use flowers, as it is more available and also able to maintain its freshness for much longer.

From this we can also deduce that if we ourselves perform Dhikr at the Qubur, it would also lessen the inhabitants' punishment. Performing Dhikr at the Qubur of the Awliya would bring more blessings upon their respective Ruhs (souls). Doing this would be compliance with a divine order.

It is stated in the famous Hanafi Fiqh book Fatawa Alamgiriyyah/Hindiyyah (Kitab al-Jana'iz) that it is allowed to put flowers on a grave.

Mullah Ali al-Qari writes in the commentary of the above-mentioned Hadith in al-Mirqat fi Sharh al-Mishkat that:

"Our Ulama have issued a ruling that to place fragrance and plants (over a grave) are a Sunnah practice".

One fails to understand how placing flowers over a grave means associating a Partner with Allah!!! To say that, actually means that flowers should only be put on the grave of Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala!
Astaghfirullah!!!!
It is sad that sometimes, even so-called learned people also cannot understand the consequences of calling a normal practice of Muslims as Shirk.

Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, said that "The one who does not thank people, does not thank Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala,", and we owe it to the Prophets, `alaymmu-s-salam, and Awliya, who protected and spread the Deen of Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala, over the ages, that we visit their shrines, dress it with flowers if we wish to (as it is Sunnah) and make Dhikr there. A Nation, which does not honour its true servants and heroes, is an ungrateful Nation and is bound to confusion.


QUESTION 6:

Is it allowed to build Domes or structures over graves?

ANSWER:

Pseudo scholars define Bid'ah as anything that Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, did not do. However, the true definition of Bid'ah is:
'Anything that has not been done by Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, and does not have an origin (Asl) in the Shari'ah ¬ Qur'an and Sunnah'.

Certain people unceremoniously condemn the building of domes on Qubur as Bid'ah, but what about the building of domes on the Moques?

There were no domes on the Mosques in the time of Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, nor were there any carpets, Minarets or Mihrabs. All these designs and structures were added long after the Beloved Nabi's time.

Domes were added to amplify the voice of the Imam by making it echo, carpets were added so that people did not have to pray on sand and minarets were added so that people could see the location of the mosque from a distance. Let those who cry "Bid'ah!" build themselves a mosque without a dome, carpet, Mihrab and Minarets.

Let us remember that the Nabi, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, himself put a large stone to mark the grave of his Sahabi Uthman bin Maz'un and said:
(li A'alama bihi Qabra Akhi) i.e. "So that I can know the Qabr of my brother".
(Abu Dawud and Mishkat al-Masabih).

This Hadith is the Asl (Islamic origin) for marking graves, especially that of special people so that they may be KNOWN. The designs and style of structure may change over the centuries, but the Original Idea comes from the Sunnah, as the idea to decorate Masajid.

The most significant proof for the permissibility of having structures over graves is the example of Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, himself. He said that a Prophet should be buried where he passed away.
Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, passed away inside his house and was subsequently buried inside it, and the Sahabah did not destroy that structure.

For those who claim that this is an exception applicable only to Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, firstly, let them prove it from the Qur'an or Sunnah, and secondly, we ask them why Sayyidina Abu Bakr As-Siddiq, radi Allahu `anh, also wanted to be buried inside this structure? The very same holds true for Sayyidina Umar, radi Allahu `anh, who was also buried inside this structure. Their action clearly shows the validity of having a grave in a structure, for non-Prophets as well.

Another Hadith often misinterpreted and quoted out of context is where Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, ordered his Sahabah to destroy all the high graves.

In the time of Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, there were no graves of Muslims, only graves of kuffar, which were built high. The Sahabah were thus ordered to destroy the high structures on the graves of the kuffar, not of the Anbiya or Awliya.

A significant evidence to support this is that when Sayyidina Umar, radi Allahu `anh, conquered Syria and Palestine, both lands abounded with great tombs of the honoured Prophets, `alaymu-s-salam, of Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala, e.g. the shrine of Nabi Ibrahim, `alayhi-s-salam, the tomb of Nabi Yusuf, `alayhi-s-salam, Nabi Ya'qub, `alayhi-s-salam, Nabi Dawud, `alayhi-s-salam, Nabi Sulayman, `alayhi-s-salam.

Sayyidina Umar, radi Allahu `anh, destroyed the idols in Syria and Palestine, but he did not touch the shrines of the beloved Prophets, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, of Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala. Thus the above Hadith refers to the high graves of the kuffar.

In a Sahih Hadith, Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, says that the honour of a Mu'min who has passed away is the same like his honour was when he was alive (Hurmatul Mumini maitan ka Hurmatihi Hayyan).

Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala, says that the most honourable of you in the sight of Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala, are the pious ones. So we respect the pious in the Dunya, and when they pass away, we continue honouring them by venerating their graves (as allowed in Islam of course).

In another Sahih Hadith, it is narrated that when Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, looked at the Holy Ka'bah, he said, "How great are you, oh house of Allah, but I swear by Allah who created me, that the honour the believer is even greater than you".

The Holy Quran (Surah al-Haj Ayah 32) says:

"And those who venerate the Sha'a'ir Allahi (Signs/Symbols of Allah), then that is from the Taqwa in their hearts". (wa man yuazzim sha'a'ir Allahi fa innaha min Taqwal Qulub)

In the Quran (1:158), the mountains of Safa and Marwah were called Sha'a'ir Allahi, because they are the mountains on which a Waliyyah from the Ummah of Nabi Ibrahim, `alayhi-s-salam, called Hajirah ran seven times.

What about a place where a Wali from the Ummah of Nabi Muhammad's, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, is resting?

We believe that place is also from the Sha'a'ir Allahi and should be honoured.

It is thus unfortunate that some people want to prohibit us from honouring the Awliya of Allah. They forget that we honour them for the sake of Allah and not as Partners with Allah. No Muslim can ever do that.

There are also Qur'anic evidences supporting the building of structures at graves.

Surah al-Kahf, Ayah 21, speaks about the honourable Ashab al-Kahf.
According to Tafsir al-Jalalayn, 'The believers' built a Masjid at their Qubur. This was to derive extra blessings from the pious ones buried there, as in the Tafsirs of Khaffaji, Baydawi, Razi and Ruh Al-Bayan.

Also often misinterpreted is the Hadith which says that Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala, cursed the people who have turned the Qubur of Prophets into Mosques.

This Hadith is actually referring to those people who actually pray to the Prophets, and not those who merely pray near the Prophets' graves - to Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala, - for the sake of Barakah.

Every Haji can see that in Madinah, in the Blessed Prophet's (s.a.w) Mosque, people have been praying around the four sides of His Holy and Blessed Qabr ash-Shareef for 1400 years. Was that Shirk?

In Makkah, it is recommended to pray in Hijr Ismail (also called Hateem), as it has the Qabr of Nabi Ismail (a.s) in it as many scholars have said

(Qisas al-Anbiya by Ibn Katheer).

In the famous work of Shafi'i Fiqh, Umdat as-Salik, it is clearly stated that what is meant by "making a Qabr a Masjid" is:

"praying to it in honour or praying on it (Reliance of the Traveller p.896).

"Ittikhaz al-Qubur Masajid" does not mean praying around it or building structures over it. Building something on a Qabr is definitely not allowed as it is disrespectful to the person buried, but establishing the Qabr and building a structure over it is definitely allowed and the universal practice of the Ummah for 1400 years. There is no clear proof against this, only for it.

For 1400 years, the Honourable Tombs of the Great Sons and Daughters of Islam, throughout the Islamic World, have acted as symbols of inspiration and glory for all Muslims, as well as a source of Barakah and Spirituality.

It is indeed sad that, today, while other nations are working hard to maintain the memory of their Heroes and Leaders, We are being are told by certain ignorant 20th scholars to wipe out the memory of Our Heroes and Leaders.

In summary, to kiss the black stone is a Sunnah, to decorate the grave with flowers is a Sunnah, and to destroy the graves of the Awliya is a Bid'ah.
The Sahabah actually used to maintain the graves.
Reply

S_87
03-16-2007, 11:28 AM
:sl:
first of all i dont even know why this topic has got to putting flowers on graves because that is not what people were doing, they were worshipping graves or at grave sites not because of punishment but because they think the people as in the sahabahs/ the Prophet :arabic5: can help from inside the grave.so they dont put flowers on the grave the reason why Muhammed :arabic5: did and also, Muhammed :arabic5: knew they were suffering and WHY they were suffering. does a person know today who is suffering and why? no. and di Muhammed :arabic5: put a leaf or stone or anything on each and every grave he passed? no.


format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
One fails to understand how placing flowers over a grave means associating a Partner with Allah!!! To say that, actually means that flowers should only be put on the grave of Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala!
Astaghfirullah!!!!
It is sad that sometimes, even so-called learned people also cannot understand the consequences of calling a normal practice of Muslims as Shirk.
again, why are these people putting flowers? is it because they HOPE (yes hope because Muhammed :arabic5: didnt say they will definitely be saved, he hoped they would) the people will be saved from punishment (if they are going through punishment that is). or is it because of pure adoration?


For those who claim that this is an exception applicable only to Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, firstly, let them prove it from the Qur'an or Sunnah, and secondly, we ask them why Sayyidina Abu Bakr As-Siddiq, radi Allahu `anh, also wanted to be buried inside this structure? The very same holds true for Sayyidina Umar, radi Allahu `anh, who was also buried inside this structure. Their action clearly shows the validity of having a grave in a structure, for non-Prophets as well.
Prophets are to be buried in the place which they passed away. when Muhammed :arabic5: passed away he was already inside a building and so the structure wasnt built over him and the sahabahs, rather he was buried in it. and Allah subhana Wa Ta'ala is wise. i can just imagine what would happen had the grave been public. the ignorants would worship Muhammed :arabic5: grave the shias would have sought to destroy the graves of Abu Bakr and Umar!


Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle in his fatal illness said, "Allah cursed the jews and the christians, for they built the places of worship at the graves of their prophets." and if that had not been the case, then the Prophet's grave would have been made prominent before the people. So (the Prophet ) was afraid, or the people were afraid that his grave might be taken as a place for worship
bukhair,muslim

Another Hadith often misinterpreted and quoted out of context is where Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, ordered his Sahabah to destroy all the high graves.

In the time of Nabi Muhammad, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, there were no graves of Muslims, only graves of kuffar, which were built high. The Sahabah were thus ordered to destroy the high structures on the graves of the kuffar, not of the Anbiya or Awliya.
obviously not because Muhammed :arabic5: warned them against it? regarding hearing of a description of a church He :arabic5: said:
When a righteous man died among them, they would build a place of worship over his grave and put those images in it. They are the most evil of mankind before Allaah
bukhari muslim


This Hadith is actually referring to those people who actually pray to the Prophets, and not those who merely pray near the Prophets' graves - to Allah, subhanaHu wa Ta`ala, - for the sake of Barakah.
tell me, do you aknowledge people DO pray to graves?

Every Haji can see that in Madinah, in the Blessed Prophet's (s.a.w) Mosque, people have been praying around the four sides of His Holy and Blessed Qabr ash-Shareef for 1400 years. Was that Shirk?
no its not shirk but do you aknowledge there are people who DO pray to the grave?

Surah al-Kahf, Ayah 21, speaks about the honourable Ashab al-Kahf.
According to Tafsir al-Jalalayn, 'The believers' built a Masjid at their Qubur. This was to derive extra blessings from the pious ones buried there, as in the Tafsirs of Khaffaji, Baydawi, Razi and Ruh Al-Bayan.
what does tafir ibn kathir say about this?
"We verily, shall build a place of worship over them.'') Those who said this were the people of power and influence, but were they good people or not There is some debate on this point, because the Prophet said:
(Allah has cursed the Jews and the Christians who took the graves of their Prophets and righteous people as places of worship) Warning against what they did. We have reported about the Commander of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab that when he found the grave of Danyal (Daniel) in Iraq during his period of rule, he gave orders that news of this grave should be withheld from the people, and that the inscription containing mention of battles etc., that they found there should be buried.


"praying to it in honour or praying on it (Reliance of the Traveller p.896).
and do people not pray to these graves?

in summary breakign down structures built over graves is not classified as destroying graves. because the grave itself is untouched...
Reply

Isaac
03-16-2007, 02:56 PM
Yes i do acknowledge people pray directly to the desceased. But in now way is that justification to go around destroying graveyrads.
Reply

S_87
03-16-2007, 05:22 PM
:sl:

i guess our definition destroying graveyards is different :)
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