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Uthman
03-12-2007, 09:49 PM
LAHORE: As the Anglican Communion continues to fight over homosexuality and as church attendance plummets, experts say that Islam is well on its way to becoming the most dominant religion in Europe, according to an article posted on CNSNews.com. Meeting in London this week in their General Synod, leaders of the Church of England continued to debate the role of gay and lesbian priests. This follows another meeting in Tanzania in which Anglican bishops issued an official warning over the matter to the Episcopal Church – the American wing of the communion. Meanwhile, research studies show that church attendance in Britain is dropping precipitously, as well as across the whole of Western Europe. According to Christian Research, a British think tank, only 6.3 percent of the British population in 2005 attended Christian services on a weekly basis. But while church attendance on the continent reportedly shows a similar decline, the Muslim population has exploded, said the CNSNews.com article. It quoted experts as saying that in recent years, young European Muslims had been returning to the faith which their parents observed only sporadically, becoming much more devout. Christian Research said that in 35 years, there would be twice as many Muslims in mosques on Friday as there are Christians in churches on Sunday. Europe has seen a wave of Muslim immigration over the last century, and some experts predict they will become the dominant population by the end of this century. In January, a British government-sponsored think tank projected that Muslims would be the majority population of Germany by 2046. Brent Nelson, an expert on European Islam, told the Cybercast News Service that it was hard to guess what a Europe with a large Muslim minority would look like. However, he said that unless Christians and Muslims as a whole learned to compromise and live together, there was a danger of a clash between the two cultures. A professor of religious studies at Glasgow University said she thought increasing numbers of Christians would convert to Islam in the coming years.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...4-3-2007_pg1_3
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czgibson
03-12-2007, 10:04 PM
Greetings,

First of all: Osman - long time no speak! Good to see you around.

Second: I think the article could well be true, given the current decline of Church attendance. Having said that, I think both Muslims and Christians will eventually be outnumbered by those with no religion. Most of the people I know aren't practising adherents of any faith.

Peace
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Zulkiflim
03-13-2007, 05:51 AM
Salaam,

It is not just Church attendance but the birthrate of the west as compared to the muslim world..
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KAding
03-13-2007, 08:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

It is not just Church attendance but the birthrate of the west as compared to the muslim world..
Birthrates among Muslim immigrants children are quickly dropping in Europe though, they are already close to the average. This is logical of course, since they live in the same society as the rest of the Europeans.
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Joe98
03-13-2007, 08:49 AM
Secularism is not a religion. But it is growing faster than Islam.

If Islam is the fastest growing religion that doesn't mean it is the fastest growing belief.
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Uthman
03-13-2007, 07:43 PM
Greetings Mr Gibson,

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Osman - long time no speak! Good to see you around.
And you. :) Perhaps I might post a bit more frequently now, although my exams are looming. Getting close and closer. *Tries to think of a simile* :D

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I think the article could well be true, given the current decline of Church attendance.
Yes, but I am now beginning to wonder whether this would have any effect statistically, as people can may still stay Christian by name, but not in practice.



format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Having said that, I think both Muslims and Christians will eventually be outnumbered by those with no religion. Most of the people I know aren't practising adherents of any faith.
Yes, but is 'most of the people I know' enough to validate your opinion? But then, in your profession I suppose you do come across a lot of people, eh? :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
If Islam is the fastest growing religion that doesn't mean it is the fastest growing belief.
Hi Joe,

Yes, I agree. Added to that, the young Muslim community having been mixed quite a lot with 'western' society has led to a loss of what is considered to be important Islamic values. An example of this is the observance of the Hijab which a lot of young Muslim girls don't do. Thus, the Islam that may have emerged after a few generations may not be what I call 'true Islam', but Islam that has been modified by the influence of western culture. So yeah, yours is a very good point.

format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Secularism is not a religion. But it is growing faster than Islam.
What makes you say that? Not that I have any opinion on it at all.

:w:
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Pygoscelis
03-13-2007, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Thus, the Islam that may have emerged after a few generations may not be what I call 'true Islam', but Islam that has been modified by the influence of western culture.
I think you can bank on this. The same secularization that happened to Christianity will happen to Islam if it is submerged in western culture. I see this as a good thing, but I'm sure many muslims would see it as something to avoid.
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czgibson
03-13-2007, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings Mr Gibson,



And you. :) Perhaps I might post a bit more frequently now, although my exams are looming. Getting close and closer. *Tries to think of a simile* :D
As close as the breath of your opponent as you weigh-in for a boxing match.

Sorry - been a long day. I always look on exams as being like fights, though - you vs. the examiner. You learn your stuff until you could burst with it, then walk into the exam room thinking 'do your worst'. Getting aggressive about it can help with writing, especially persuasive essays!

Seriously: I'm sure you'll make the best use of the holidays. Get the exams out of the way, then spend time on the forum. Trust me, the relaxation after the exams will be worth it.

Yes, but I am now beginning to wonder whether this would have any effect statistically, as people can may still stay Christian by name, but not in practice.


Absolutely true. A lot of people listed as 'C of E' never go to church.

Yes, but is 'most of the people I know' enough to validate your opinion? But then, in your profession I suppose you do come across a lot of people, eh? :)
It's probably not, no. Fair point. :)

Peace
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Zulkiflim
03-14-2007, 11:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Birthrates among Muslim immigrants children are quickly dropping in Europe though, they are already close to the average. This is logical of course, since they live in the same society as the rest of the Europeans.
Heya

can you provide the statistics for the muslim immigrant birthrate?
Never came across statistic that breakdown by immigration generation..

thanks..

http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed...ar20030301.htm

More are on the way. Today, the Muslim birth rate in Europe is three times higher than the non-Muslim one. If current trends continue, the Muslim population of Europe will nearly double by 2015, while the non-Muslim population will shrink by 3.5 percent.
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.ph...ticle_ID=13882

Russia's Muslim community is extremely diverse, including Volga Tatars, the myriad ethnicities of the North Caucasus and newly arrived immigrants from Central Asia. But they all share birthrates that are far higher than Russia's ethnic Slavs, most of whom are Orthodox Christians:
Russia's overall population is dropping at a rate of 700,000 people a year, largely because of the short life spans and low birthrates of ethnic Russians.
According to the CIA World Factbook, the national fertility rate is 1.28 children per woman, far below what is needed to maintain the country's population of nearly 143 million.
The fertility rate in Moscow is even lower, at 1.1 children per woman.

Russia's Muslims, however, are bucking that trend, says Paul Goble, a specialist on Islam in Russia and research associate at the University of Tartu in Estonia:
The fertility rate for Tatars living in Moscow is six children per woman, while the Chechen and Ingush communities are averaging 10 children per woman.
At the same time, hundreds of thousands of Muslims from Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan have been flocking to Russia in search of work.
Russia's Muslim population has increased by 40 percent since 1989, to about 25 million.
By 2015, Muslims will make up a majority of Russia's conscript army and by 2020 one-fifth of the population.

http://www.geocities.com/richleebruce/b/islam.html

Some authorities think Muslims have a higher birthrate simply because they life in poorer nations, but even when Muslims live in the same nations as other groups their birth rates have been higher
Because Muslims are not as promiscuous as the rest of the human race they have largely avoided AIDS. ............. the rate of infection in Muslim countries is typically less than one in a thousand adults
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1796
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Zulkiflim
03-14-2007, 11:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Secularism is not a religion. But it is growing faster than Islam.

If Islam is the fastest growing religion that doesn't mean it is the fastest growing belief.

Cna you pls define secularism...LOL..
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Uthman
03-14-2007, 11:12 PM
Hi Pygoscelis,

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I see this as a good thing, but I'm sure many muslims would see it as something to avoid.
Naturally, I see it as something to avoid. I have my suspicions, but why is it exactly that you see it as a good thing?

Hey Mr Gibson,

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
As close as the breath of your opponent as you weigh-in for a boxing match.
Oh, that's a good simile. :) Will have to remember that one.

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Sorry - been a long day. I always look on exams as being like fights, though - you vs. the examiner. You learn your stuff until you could burst with it, then walk into the exam room thinking 'do your worst'. Getting aggressive about it can help with writing, especially persuasive essays!
Thanks for the advice. :) I'm fairly confident about English as thankfully, I have a really good teacher.

By the way, I am curious. Do you have any particular reaction to that fact that Islam could become Europe's dominant religion? Do you see it as maybe a good or a bad thing?

Regards
Reply

czgibson
03-14-2007, 11:58 PM
Greetings Osman,
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Thanks for the advice. :) I'm fairly confident about English as thankfully, I have a really good teacher.
Good for you. It's a marvellous subject, isn't it? :)

By the way, I am curious. Do you have any particular reaction to that fact that Islam could become Europe's dominant religion? Do you see it as maybe a good or a bad thing?
That's an interesting question, and I have several reactions to it. Whatever happens, I'm not sure it'll happen in my lifetime. In simple terms, because I happen to think that Islam isn't the best way forward for humanity, it saddens me slightly to think that it could become dominant. At the same time, though, I think that the growth of secularism will prevent Islam from becoing dominant in a political sense. The trouble with that is that number of secularists is quite difficult to gauge, because of the fact I mentioned above about many non-believers being listed as 'C of E'. It is the case, though, that secularism is very much a prevalent body of thought in public life. This means that the potential future dominance of Islam as a private faith does not worry me hugely, as I think that, in general, people ought to be free to believe whatever they want.

Peace
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Pygoscelis
03-15-2007, 04:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I have my suspicions, but why is it exactly that you see it as a good thing?
Your suspicions are likely correct. We view Islam from opposite points. You see it as the perfect way to live your life. I see it as dangerous supersticion that some will use to lead and abuse others. A system of beliefs and dogmas to stand in the way of secular society and progress.

I'm not sure if we can both agree that the secularization of Christianity was a good thing? A few hundred years ago Christians were burning witches, killing heretics, warring with anybody from a different worldview (including muslims). People would blindly follow whatever church leaders told them. Times have chnaged and though other notions are abused (such as patriotism in the US) religion is no longer abused as bad as it once was.
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vpb
03-15-2007, 08:35 AM
I can';t remember where I read , but one of the professors from Princeton University (a non-muslim) said that by the end of this century Europe will be an Islamic continent. I'll try to find where I read it. InshaAllah
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vpb
03-15-2007, 09:02 AM
Islamic Europe?
From the October 4, 2004 issue: When Bernard Lewis speaks . . .
by Christopher Caldwell
10/04/2004, Volume 010, Issue 04

SELDOM HAS THE COURSE of European history been changed by a non-politician's throwaway remark in a German-language newspaper on a Wednesday in the dead of the summer doldrums. But on July 28, Princeton historian Bernard Lewis told the conservative Hamburg-based daily Die Welt that Europe would be Islamic by the end of this century "at the very latest," and continental politics has not been the same since.

Days before the third anniversary of 9/11, Frits Bolkestein of the Netherlands, the outgoing European Union competition commissioner, caused an uproar when he mentioned Lewis's remark in the course of an address at the opening of courses at the University of Leiden. Bolkestein warned that the E.U. will "implode" if it expands too quickly. It was a timely topic.

A few days from now, the E.U. commissioner for expansion, Günter Verheugen of Germany, will issue a report on whether to open negotiations with Turkey on E.U. membership. It is expected to be positive. The full commission must vote on the report in December, after which a decade of talks is envisioned. But since the Verheugen report is likely to be positive, and since the commission is expected to rubber-stamp the report's recommendations, and since no candidate state that has begun E.U. accession negotiations has ever been rejected, the process has the look of a fait accompli. Thanks to . . . what? . . . Günter Verheugen's mood, the peoples of Europe are about to see their fate yoked irrevocably to that of the Islamic world.
Indeed, the need to forge a solemn bond with Islamic secularism of the sort that Turkey enjoyed after Kemal Atatürk came to power is the reason most often given for the indispensability of Turkish accession.

Bolkestein was thus addressing a continent-wide discomfiture. His speech was long. It was no rant. Alluding to the E.U.'s aspiration to become a multinational state, he drew listeners' attention to the fate of the most recent European power with that aspiration, the Austro-Hungarian empire just over a century ago. Austrians were culturally confident (Liszt, Richard Strauss, Brahms, Mahler, and Wagner were working in Vienna). They were prosperous and proud. The problem was that there were only 8 million of them, and expanding their country's frontiers brought them face to face with an energetic pan-Slavic movement. Once the Empire absorbed 20 million Slavs, it faced difficult compromises between allowing the new subjects to rule themselves and preserving its own culture. Rather like the E.U., the Empire was past the point of no return before it realized it was going anywhere in particular.

Bolkestein asked what lessons Europeans ought to draw from this history, as they consider welcoming Turkey. He then addressed two specific problems. First, that there was no logical end in sight to European expansion--once the E.U. accepts Turkey, it will have no principled reason to reject the considerably more European countries of Ukraine and Belarus. Europe is thus adding instability that it has neither the financial means nor the cultural solidarity to master. The second problem, Bolkestein warned, is that immigration is turning the E.U. into "an Austro-Hungarian empire on a grand scale." He alluded to certain great cities that will soon be minority-European--two of the most important of which, Amsterdam and Rotterdam, are in his own country--and warned that the (projected) addition of 83 million Muslim Turks would further the Islamization of Europe. It was this part of his speech--in which he referred to Lewis's projections--that made headlines around the world: "Current trends allow only one conclusion," Bolkestein said. "The USA will remain the only superpower. China is becoming an economic giant. Europe is being Islamicized."
Source: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...4/685ozxcq.asp
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KAding
03-15-2007, 10:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Heya
can you provide the statistics for the muslim immigrant birthrate?
Never came across statistic that breakdown by immigration generation..

thanks..
Well, I'm mostly basing myself on what I have read in Dutch statistical publications on the birthrate of Turkish and Morrocan and their children in the Netherlands. Unfortunately all these reports are in Dutch, but I'll translate the relevant bits.

http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/CCD50...b15p096art.pdf
format_quote Originally Posted by Demographic Report
De vruchtbaarheid van jonge niet-westerse allochtonen van de tweede generatie is weliswaar hoger dan die van de autochtonen, maar aanzienlijk
lager dan die van de eerste generatie.

Dat de vruchtbaarheid van Marokkaanse vrouwen twee keer zo hoog is als die van autochtone vrouwen, is vooral toe te schrijven aan de eerste generatie.

Translated:
The fertility of non-Western immigrant children are still higher than those of 'native' Dutch, but considerably lower than the fertility of the first generation immigrants.

That the fertility of Moroccan women is twice as high as those of 'native' Dutch can mainly be attributed to the first generation of immigrants.
There are some graphs on page 106 of the report. There are other reports that say the same about the evolution of fertility in the Netherlands. I don't really see a reason why developments would be any else in most European countries.

And on Denmark
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/647
Europe's Muslim Population in Demographic Free-fall?

August 7, 2006

No, that's not a headline you expected to read, but it is suggested by a report from Denmark's Dream Institute indicating that Danish immigrant women in 1980 had on average 4 children but now have only 2.4 children. The study offers such reasons as the older age of women immigrating and fewer immigrants from poorer countries; but surely, being exposed to the hyper-modernity of Denmark must also play a role.

This drop in fertility has major implications for Denmark's ethnic composition. The last forecast, made in 2004, predicted immigrants and their descendants (from countries like Turkey, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq) would constitute 15.3 percent of the population in 2080 (presuming no more immigration, I infer). The 2006 forecast finds them making up just under 8 percent.

Comment: The study is limited to Denmark, which probably has more stringent immigration controls than any other country in the West. But the demographic trend first spotted here is likely recur elsewhere, dimming the chances for a Muslim demographic takeover. (August 7, 2006)
All these developments are completely logical. These immigrants come from developing countries, countries in where fertility rates are always high, regardless if they are Muslim or not. They are moving to a developed society in which birth rates (like in virtually all developed countries) is much lower. There are social and economic reasons for this drop in fertility. Why would Muslims be immune to it? Even if 'secularization' would partly explain the low birth rates, why would we assume Muslims are immune to it? Clearly, they are not, considering the high number of secularized and westernized Muslims you see everywhere.

None of your links seem to give an actual source for their claims. Besides, as far as I know there have been no European-wide studies on the fertility differences among first and second generation Muslims immigrants.Your first article is an op-ed article, which doesn't even claim that fertility is not dropping among immigrants. It is only claiming that fertility is still higher than among 'native' Europeans, which nobody is disputing.

The second article deals with Russia, which is really so much different from Western Europe. Firstly, there Muslims are indigenous and not immigrants and Russia is simply not very developed.

The third article, like the first, does not show any source and does not comment on fertility changes, but merely that they are higher currently. Which is indeed correct. Besides, these unsubstantiated claims don't seem to agree with a study like this one on West Africa.

http://www.anthrosource.net/doi/abs/...ournalCode=maq
Recent popular works have represented Muslim fertility as dangerously high, both a cause and consequence of religious fundamentalism. This article uses comparative, statistical methods to show that this representation is empirically wrong, at least in West Africa. Although religion strongly inflects reproductive practice, its effects are not constant across different communities. In West African countries with Muslim majorities, Muslim fertility is lower than that of their non-Muslim conationals; in countries where Muslims are in the minority, their apparently higher reproductive rates converge to those of the majority when levels of education and urban residence are taken into account.
I am not sure why the AIDS comment is in your post. How many people do you think are dying in Europe because of AIDS? :X In Holland about 100 people a year die because of AIDS. However you put it, that is simply not much at all out of a population of 16 million. AIDS is simply not a major killer in the West.

Your fourth link, the one pointing to an article from the notoriously 'Islamophobe' Daniel Pipes. These doom and gloom predictions of Muslim 'take-over' are generally based on several assumptions:
1. Muslims cannot modernize (and thus get less children or apostate)
2. Europe cannot restrict immigration

I think these assumptions are highly flawed. None of them have been substantiated by any kind of research.

Clearly Muslims can live modern life styles, they are not any different from other humans. There are generally only two groups who want to designate Muslims as 'special', Islamophobes and overly enthusiastic Muslims. Unsuprisingly, these are also the two groups that promote this idea that Islam will take over the world, the latter as a wet dream, the former to scaremonger people into action.

Clearly Europe can limit immigration if they want to, countries with strict immigration policies see huge drops after a while (look again at Denmark and Holland). Most immigration is because of import husbands/wives and family reunions. Limit that and your are halfway there.

But we are getting off-topic, we were just discussing birth rates, not immigration. This is just my opinion of course, your opinion may differ :).
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Bittersteel
03-15-2007, 10:30 AM
I happen to disagree.I don't think Islam will be practised at all in the next decade in this increasingly liberal world.read about Jews no longer carrying out their religious duties and have seen plenty of Muslims not practise their religion.Its liberalism ,not western culture.
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Zulkiflim
03-15-2007, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Well, I'm mostly basing myself on what I have read in Dutch statistical publications on the birthrate of Turkish and Morrocan and their children in the Netherlands. Unfortunately all these reports are in Dutch, but I'll translate the relevant bits.

http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/CCD50...b15p096art.pdf


There are some graphs on page 106 of the report. There are other reports that say the same about the evolution of fertility in the Netherlands. I don't really see a reason why developments would be any else in most European countries.

And on Denmark


All these developments are completely logical. These immigrants come from developing countries, countries in where fertility rates are always high, regardless if they are Muslim or not. They are moving to a developed society in which birth rates (like in virtually all developed countries) is much lower. There are social and economic reasons for this drop in fertility. Why would Muslims be immune to it? Even if 'secularization' would partly explain the low birth rates, why would we assume Muslims are immune to it? Clearly, they are not, considering the high number of secularized and westernized Muslims you see everywhere.

None of your links seem to give an actual source for their claims. Besides, as far as I know there have been no European-wide studies on the fertility differences among first and second generation Muslims immigrants.Your first article is an op-ed article, which doesn't even claim that fertility is not dropping among immigrants. It is only claiming that fertility is still higher than among 'native' Europeans, which nobody is disputing.

The second article deals with Russia, which is really so much different from Western Europe. Firstly, there Muslims are indigenous and not immigrants and Russia is simply not very developed.

The third article, like the first, does not show any source and does not comment on fertility changes, but merely that they are higher currently. Which is indeed correct. Besides, these unsubstantiated claims don't seem to agree with a study like this one on West Africa.

http://www.anthrosource.net/doi/abs/...ournalCode=maq


I am not sure why the AIDS comment is in your post. How many people do you think are dying in Europe because of AIDS? :X In Holland about 100 people a year die because of AIDS. However you put it, that is simply not much at all out of a population of 16 million. AIDS is simply not a major killer in the West.

Your fourth link, the one pointing to an article from the notoriously 'Islamophobe' Daniel Pipes. These doom and gloom predictions of Muslim 'take-over' are generally based on several assumptions:
1. Muslims cannot modernize (and thus get less children or apostate)
2. Europe cannot restrict immigration

I think these assumptions are highly flawed. None of them have been substantiated by any kind of research.

Clearly Muslims can live modern life styles, they are not any different from other humans. There are generally only two groups who want to designate Muslims as 'special', Islamophobes and overly enthusiastic Muslims. Unsuprisingly, these are also the two groups that promote this idea that Islam will take over the world, the latter as a wet dream, the former to scaremonger people into action.

Clearly Europe can limit immigration if they want to, countries with strict immigration policies see huge drops after a while (look again at Denmark and Holland). Most immigration is because of import husbands/wives and family reunions. Limit that and your are halfway there.

But we are getting off-topic, we were just discussing birth rates, not immigration. This is just my opinion of course, your opinion may differ :).
Salaam,,

Dont speak,the Netherland language so will just have to take your word for it.

And as for Denmark,after SEP 11 and its tightening of Immgration rules and stopping its current immigrant from marrying outside of denmark of course has caused a huge drop in fetility rate.

But that again opens a nother rift,if the second generation immigrant are not able to amrry outside they will have to marry inside.
The demographics do not state how many Danish women marry immigrants and what is their fertility rate.
I suppose such should be taken into account.

And yes,i cannot find any european wide studies that break down fetility by generation.
nor do they have fertility demographics of those who married muslim immigrants.
i think they will soon...

But it is not denied EU that the birth rate of musloim,even in Netherlands is 2 to 3 times higher compared to the natives..
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Zulkiflim
03-15-2007, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
I happen to disagree.I don't think Islam will be practised at all in the next decade in this increasingly liberal world.read about Jews no longer carrying out their religious duties and have seen plenty of Muslims not practise their religion.Its liberalism ,not western culture.
Salaam,

Yes that is in the Propehcies remember..

Build glorious and majestic Mosques but the heart will be empty..

These will be the losers.

So to those who wish Jannah,persevere and keep the covenant.
Inshallah...Jannah awaits.

But for those who seek this secular world,it is but a short period followed by eternal torment for those who forsake guidnace willingly..
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Eric H
03-15-2007, 11:43 PM
Greetings and peace be with you brother Osman,

I’m with Mr Gibson, its good to see you back again, I have missed your wit, wisdom and the ability to find a smilie for all occasions.:blind: :cry: :D :-[ :statisfie +o( :) :exhausted :raging: :skeleton: :thumbs_up

I don’t think the problem is to worry about numbers and who is going to be the dominant force in Europe, numbers always seem to shift and change.

The greater challenge is how can we strive for a greater friendship with people who are different to us? How can we get on and still celebrate our differences?

In the spirit of praying for a greater secular and interfaith friendship

Eric
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-16-2007, 12:04 AM
jazakAllah khair bro Osman for putting this wide smile on my face.

may Allah make islam victorious (and it is guaranteed)

:)
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England
03-17-2007, 11:24 AM
I worked with an Iraqi not so long ago. I asked him if he was muslim and he said yes, a kurd. I said "how come you don't pray 5 times a day?" He told me that he was only muslim by name. He didn't practice it. He was always flirting with the girls. I was a bit surprised though as I thought Iraqis would be REALLY religious.

Remember that "muslim" guy that exchanged numbers with me? He told me he prayed 5 times a day and drinks "little" alcohol. When I saw him glare at a girl that walked past I smirked and asked him "isn't that wrong?" He laughed and said he doesn't follow that part as it is hard to follow.

What would be the point in praying to God when, according to his faith, he would be disobeying Him?

I've got no problems with what he did, I understand his point but I'm you sure you lot won't.

There are "muslims" that call themselves "muslims" by name.
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Zulkiflim
03-17-2007, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
I worked with an Iraqi not so long ago. I asked him if he was muslim and he said yes, a kurd. I said "how come you don't pray 5 times a day?" He told me that he was only muslim by name. He didn't practice it. He was always flirting with the girls. I was a bit surprised though as I thought Iraqis would be REALLY religious.

Remember that "muslim" guy that exchanged numbers with me? He told me he prayed 5 times a day and drinks "little" alcohol. When I saw him glare at a girl that walked past I smirked and asked him "isn't that wrong?" He laughed and said he doesn't follow that part as it is hard to follow.

What would be the point in praying to God when, according to his faith, he would be disobeying Him?

I've got no problems with what he did, I understand his point but I'm you sure you lot won't.

There are "muslims" that call themselves "muslims" by name.
Salaam,

They refer themselves as muslim but do UnIslamic things.

They are doing deviant acts but not those that will make them cast out of Islam.

eg like idolatry or worshipping man as god.

Inshallah Allah knows best.

Did you know that even the NOI memebr refer to themselves as Muslim,but follow a man god...they are DEFINETLY NOT MUSLIM>..
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Pygoscelis
03-17-2007, 01:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
I don’t think the problem is to worry about numbers and who is going to be the dominant force in Europe, numbers always seem to shift and change.

The greater challenge is how can we strive for a greater friendship with people who are different to us? How can we get on and still celebrate our differences?

In the spirit of praying for a greater secular and interfaith friendship
I do believe that numbers matter. The big conflict to come is fundamentalist muslims/christians (they too breed quickly) vs liberalism and secularization.

They are diametrically opposed and there is no reconcilation. The former wants to dominate (enact laws according to their faiths) and convert all others. The latter wants separation of curch and state. The religionists have the advantage because they seek to whipe out secularism (save souls, enact holy law, etc) whereas the secularists are not nearly as motivated to destroy religion.
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Keltoi
03-17-2007, 05:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I do believe that numbers matter. The big conflict to come is fundamentalist muslims/christians (they too breed quickly) vs liberalism and secularization.

They are diametrically opposed and there is no reconcilation. The former wants to dominate (enact laws according to their faiths) and convert all others. The latter wants separation of curch and state. The religionists have the advantage because they seek to whipe out secularism (save souls, enact holy law, etc) whereas the secularists are not nearly as motivated to destroy religion.
Traditionally the conflict between religious peoples and the liberal and secular nature of the government hasn't been a big issue. Yes, many Christians feel that their faith is being attacked by organizations like the ACLU, but that is not the same thing as attempting to impose a theocracy, which few mainstream Christians would support. The "neo-secularists" have begun to attack any expression of Christian belief in the public arena. That was not the intention of the founding fathers.
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ManchesterFolk
03-17-2007, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
I happen to disagree.I don't think Islam will be practised at all in the next decade in this increasingly liberal world.read about Jews no longer carrying out their religious duties and have seen plenty of Muslims not practise their religion.Its liberalism ,not western culture.
lol, don't tell me that about those Jews. Where I live around 1,000 ultra-orthodox Jews moved in and set up a place of prayer and religious school. They have such high birth rates (each jewish family has at least 8 kids majority have over 10) that there population triples every 10 years and now they are huge and expanding. I might have to move if they continue this way becvause my neighborhood in about 30 years is predicted to go from secular majority to orthodox jewish majoirty and i dont want to live in an area like that.
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Pygoscelis
03-18-2007, 01:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Traditionally the conflict between religious peoples and the liberal and secular nature of the government hasn't been a big issue. Yes, many Christians feel that their faith is being attacked by organizations like the ACLU, but that is not the same thing as attempting to impose a theocracy, which few mainstream Christians would support. The "neo-secularists" have begun to attack any expression of Christian belief in the public arena. That was not the intention of the founding fathers.
I agree that separation of church and state should be double edged. The state should not interfere in affairs of the church any more than the church should interfere in affairs of the state.

So long as the relgious don't push their religion upon the rest of us, enacting laws, endangering lives, changing public school programming to fit an agenda (private religious schools i have no problem with), etc, I think they should be left alone to worship as they see fit.

I think that you and I actually meet very close to the same position on this issue, just coming at it form opposite sides. So naturally we'll notice the violations from the opposite of extreme of our repective selves, extremes to which neither of us belong.
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Bittersteel
03-19-2007, 02:43 PM
ol, don't tell me that about those Jews. Where I live around 1,000 ultra-orthodox Jews moved in and set up a place of prayer and religious school. They have such high birth rates (each jewish family has at least 8 kids majority have over 10) that there population triples every 10 years and now they are huge and expanding. I might have to move if they continue this way becvause my neighborhood in about 30 years is predicted to go from secular majority to orthodox jewish majoirty and i dont want to live in an area like that.
I should have added the word some.My point was it aren't Muslims only who are finding it difficult to adjust with modern secularism and liberalism.BTW,Manchester isn't that anti-semitism?
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Uthman
03-19-2007, 06:15 PM
Hi,

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I'm not sure if we can both agree that the secularization of Christianity was a good thing? A few hundred years ago Christians were burning witches, killing heretics, warring with anybody from a different worldview (including muslims). People would blindly follow whatever church leaders told them.
I don't know much about Christianity. Does it actually condone these acts?

format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
Its liberalism ,not western culture.
Well, I think they pretty much equate to the same thing.
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KAding
03-19-2007, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
I happen to disagree.I don't think Islam will be practised at all in the next decade in this increasingly liberal world.read about Jews no longer carrying out their religious duties and have seen plenty of Muslims not practise their religion.Its liberalism ,not western culture.
Or it is even more fundamental, it is modernity. The emancipation and education of the masses, which has led to the empowerment of the individual. I find it very interesting that all countries that have developed economically in Asia have become so much like the West (read materialist and liberal).

Which makes me think it is indeed nothing inherent to 'the West', but rather a consequence of modernizing. Modern economic lifestyles lead to liberalism by definition, slowly killing traditional culture. Nothing new, because lets be honest here, how much of traditional Western culture is part of what we now call 'Western culture'? Not much IMHO.
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Keltoi
03-20-2007, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Or it is even more fundamental, it is modernity. The emancipation and education of the masses, which has led to the empowerment of the individual. I find it very interesting that all countries that have developed economically in Asia have become so much like the West (read materialist and liberal).

Which makes me think it is indeed nothing inherent to 'the West', but rather a consequence of modernizing. Modern economic lifestyles lead to liberalism by definition, slowly killing traditional culture. Nothing new, because lets be honest here, how much of traditional Western culture is part of what we now call 'Western culture'? Not much IMHO.
Well, "Western" culture does borrow alot from the Greeks and Romans, which is what I think of when I think of "Western" culture. However, you are correct in that modernity has made that less apparent.
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Uthman
03-25-2007, 01:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you brother Osman,
And you brother Eric :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
I’m with Mr Gibson, its good to see you back again, I have missed your wit, wisdom and the ability to find a smilie for all occasions.:blind: :cry: :D :-[ :statisfie +o( :) :exhausted :raging: :skeleton: :thumbs_up
Haha! I've missed you too.



format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
I don’t think the problem is to worry about numbers and who is going to be the dominant force in Europe, numbers always seem to shift and change.

The greater challenge is how can we strive for a greater friendship with people who are different to us? How can we get on and still celebrate our differences?
Wise words as always brother Eric. :)

I think it has come to a stage where it is rare that a person will find a true Muslim or a true Christian. The onus is on us to practise our religions to the best of our ability. We don't have the power to control the masses, and we don't need to.

:w:
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Darkseid
03-25-2007, 02:28 PM
I think the birthrates are legit if they are to decrease the population.

Too many children means more Chinas. More chinas means eventually we will be eating each other rather than competing with each other for food.

China is already having a close enough problem of their people starving, because it has too many people to feed.

We should take caution of their practice and not repeat the same mistake.

So I think we should limit birthrates rather than excelerate them. I do believe some countries should promote more population, but most should just limit it to help perserve their environment.

Less people being borned does not mean the end of the world. If less people were being borned in China then we would be having a much more splendid time world wide and if the same be implied to India as well. But I do agree that if less people were being borned in lets say San Marino, then that could mean a disaster for the state of San Marino.

Japan has a low birth rate, but it is in desperate need of one.


Now I'll explain where this low birth rate comes from and these low attendance at the churches.

Low birth rates come from women being allowed to focus on their jobs and their success. This comes from thier being too many people to take care of that concerns their job work (like being a doctor or lawyer). There should be nothing wrong with that. As when there are less people to take care of then the birth rate should increase. This is a natural cycle.

People are attending less church, because either they have less belief in those faiths or they have less belief in the churches that pertain to those faiths. Both of these are good for a certain perspective of thought, but create caution to those that support religious ideas. Churches have for a long time render individual thinking and ability to understand. They limit the freedom of expression and the freedom to become one with god by one's own means. This whole freedom account traces back to Martin Luther and when he seperated his faith from the Catholic Church. But in the present terms people just don't trust the church and believe their faith should be present solely in their homes. Faith is suppose to be a individual thing and not a socially controlling thing.

Now for the less belief in faith. This comes from experience and from knowledge. When you look back in history, what do you see as the main cause of war? Religion. Bin Laden right now is encouraging more European Christians to turn away from faith, by making faith violent and aggressive.

Violence and aggression involving faith always turns people away from faith.
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Khan-Ghalgha
03-26-2007, 02:20 AM
Muslims had very different expirience of applying Islam, golden age of Islamic Khalifat were the first centuries of it's existence(tho, Islamic Khalifat in it's strict sence existed for only about 30 years or so)

Muslims were most sophisticated and progressive when they were very religiuos, when they abandon Islam and put in merely on an individual level, muslims've become backward and regressive and weak as of now.

Europe on other hand had very different expirience with christianity, which quite the opposite, that's why when you relate to Islam and muslims having historically europen expirience as your background you can make some grave mistakes, muslims simply have different paradigm, it's a historical fact - fully embrace Islam = prosperity, progress; abandon Islam = backwardness, regress.
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samah12
03-26-2007, 02:30 AM
As a european and a Muslim I can say we seem to be heading toward Islam being the dominant organised religion. However, capitalism will remain the strongest 'faith' in europe.
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Khan-Ghalgha
03-26-2007, 02:48 AM
As a european and a Muslim I can say we seem to be heading toward Islam being the dominant organised religion. However, capitalism will remain the strongest 'faith' in europe.
Or differently put - consumer ideology, I think that the most accurate description of todays Europe's dominant ideology.
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samah12
03-26-2007, 02:51 AM
Nicely put and unfortunately this ideology is now creeping into the middle east.
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Darkseid
03-26-2007, 03:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
Muslims had very different expirience of applying Islam, golden age of Islamic Khalifat were the first centuries of it's existence(tho, Islamic Khalifat in it's strict sence existed for only about 30 years or so)

Muslims were most sophisticated and progressive when they were very religiuos, when they abandon Islam and put in merely on an individual level, muslims've become backward and regressive and weak as of now.

Europe on other hand had very different expirience with christianity, which quite the opposite, that's why when you relate to Islam and muslims having historically europen expirience as your background you can make some grave mistakes, muslims simply have different paradigm, it's a historical fact - fully embrace Islam = prosperity, progress; abandon Islam = backwardness, regress.
I think it involves something more deep than that.

You have to understand the whole condition involving faith in the middle-east.

You see before Islam there was hardly any literacy nor learning. When Islam was introduced, it sprouted a huge impact by promoting learning on a crucial and huge scale. As they turn away from Islam, they began turning away from learning at same time. That was the drawback of turning away from Islam. Like the dark ages in which people turn away from Roman Culture and thus education became dark (that's why it was called the Dark Ages). In Europe, Christianity was hindering people from learning and when people turned away from it, they began to learn again. Now I'm not saying that christianity is diabolic, but the means in which was used was rather authoritarian.

To say turning away from Islam promote stupidity, would be incorrect. Turning away from a sophisticated society promotes stupidity, would be correct.

format_quote Originally Posted by samah12
Nicely put and unfortunately this ideology is now creeping into the middle east.
Well some Islamic figures did turn against socialism. You either have socialism, feudalism or lordism, or capitalism.

Socialism is when the state controls (though maybe not entirely) the economy.

Lordism is when a lord controls the economy. This is very similar to socialism, except it would involve a monarchy.

Capitalism is when the business it self controls the economy.
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Khan-Ghalgha
03-26-2007, 04:35 AM
Yeah, that really is much deeper:rollseyes
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KAding
03-26-2007, 11:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
Muslims had very different expirience of applying Islam, golden age of Islamic Khalifat were the first centuries of it's existence(tho, Islamic Khalifat in it's strict sence existed for only about 30 years or so)

Muslims were most sophisticated and progressive when they were very religiuos, when they abandon Islam and put in merely on an individual level, muslims've become backward and regressive and weak as of now.

Europe on other hand had very different expirience with christianity, which quite the opposite, that's why when you relate to Islam and muslims having historically europen expirience as your background you can make some grave mistakes, muslims simply have different paradigm, it's a historical fact - fully embrace Islam = prosperity, progress; abandon Islam = backwardness, regress.
That might be so a millennium ago, but nowadays we see no correlation between religiosity and 'prosperity' and 'progress'. The muslim countries which are still very religious, like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, do not seem more developed, nor do they have a higher literacy rate than those that are secular, like Turkey. In fact, the opposite seems more the case.

And obviously economic and political systems evolved since the time of the Caliphate. Modern economies are no longer agricultural and competing ideologies are no longer based on absolute rule and feudalism. Islam no longer has to compete against backward governmental systems such as despotic monarchies, but highly sophisticated republican, democratic and socialist systems.
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barney
03-26-2007, 01:52 PM
Remember though that when a Christian or Jew chooses to discard their faith, it's invariably because they are frustrated with Organised Religion, not with just Christianity or Judiasm. Apostates from these religions will rarely look for others.

Therefore, although one day, in europe, we may see the majority of people who are following a religion are the muslims, thats going to be because practically nobody else is following religion.

Even Catholic numbers are falling, and the Catholics put a penalty on leaving their religion as ****ation in the hereafter (excommunication), which traditionally has been a great help to them in keeping their beleivers on board.
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barney
03-26-2007, 01:55 PM
In post above ****nation = d-a-mnation (Is that swearing?..Its in both Bible and Koran?) :)
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Uthman
07-27-2007, 08:37 AM
:sl:

Christians leaders are becoming increasingly concerned about the threat to this country's Christian identity posed by the rate of immigration. I have a couple of articles from the mainstream media on the subject.

Carey urges immigration control

Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey has called for tighter controls on immigration when Gordon Brown becomes prime minister.

He told the BBC the issue would "not go away" and that stricter controls were needed alongside clemency for refugees.

Lord Carey also urged Mr Brown not to forget "the importance of Christian identity" to the UK population.

The Refugee Council said he was out of step with other religious groups and that controls were already strict.

British identity


Speaking on Radio 4's Sunday programme about his hopes for the Brown government, Lord Carey said: "At home, the issue of immigration will not go away and I hope that he will impose stricter controls on those entering the United Kingdom."

But he added that he understood Mr Brown was "very concerned" about British identity and that there was a need to balance control with "clemency in the case of some people who need refugee status".

Lord Carey would seem to be out of step of with the Church of England and other Christian and faith groups


Tim Finch
Refugee Council

He added: "I hope he will not forget the importance of Christian identity at the very heart of being a part of the United Kingdom."

Tim Finch, of the Refugee Council, questioned why Lord Carey had intervened on the subject when "controls on immigration and asylum were so strong already".

He added: "Lord Carey would seem to be out of step with the Church of England and other Christian and faith groups which have been in the forefront of calls for more generosity to be shown to migrants and refugees."

The programme also heard from Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks, the Muslim Council of Britain's secretary general, Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, and chairman of the Hindu Council UK, Dr Jagdish Sharma.

Mr Brown has previously said he would like to see immigrants doing community work to help them settle before being granted UK citizenship.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6234542.stm

Pope's aide warns of 'threat by Islam'

Last Updated: 2:02am BST 27/07/2007

The Pope's private secretary has given warning of the Islamisation of Europe and stressed the need for the continent's Christian roots not to be ignored, in comments released yesterday.

"Attempts to Islamise the West cannot be denied," Monsignor Georg Gaenswein was quoted as saying in an advance copy of the weekly Sueddeutsche Magazin to be published today.

"The danger for the identity of Europe that is connected with it should not be ignored out of a wrongly understood respectfulness," the magazine quoted him as saying.

He also defended a speech that the Pope gave last year that linked Islam and violence, saying it had been an attempt by the pontiff to "act against a certain naivety".

In the speech during a visit to Germany in September, the Pope appeared to endorse a view, contested by most Muslims, that Islam's followers spread their religion in its early days by violence.

The Pope quoted Manuel II Paleologus, the 14th-century Byzantine emperor, who said: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Muslims around the world protested against the speech. Churches were set ablaze in the West Bank and a hard-line Iranian cleric said that the Pope was united with President George W Bush to "repeat the Crusades".

When an Italian nun was shot in a Somali hospital where she worked, the Vatican expressed concern that the attack was a reaction to the Pope's remarks.

Recently, Joachim Meisner, the influential archbishop of Cologne, said in a radio interview that the "immigration of Muslims has created a breach in our German, European culture".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../wislam127.xml

:w:
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guyabano
07-27-2007, 09:24 AM
No copy/paste, just a personal reflection:

The point is where will this lead? I mean, muslims cry that christianity is slowely by slowely coming to muslim territory, while muslims conquer western territory.
But I can notice, that when Muslims come to west, that is ok and everyone is happy, so far on this forum and other muslim forums.
Oppsite naturally brings up hatred against christianisation in muslim territory.

Well, I perfectly understand this situtaion, hey, we are on an muslim board. Who wants already 'intruders' in your stable established society, everything is built up upon muslim moral values and beliefs.

But wait, what is with the others?? What do think the people on the other side, who are deeply christian and hold tight to those moral values and priveleges, which they built up during past centuries? Do they not have the right to express theese feelings and they just get overrun by the muslim arrogance yelling 'we want more muslim rights' inside a country, which does not belong to them? Here, Muslims are shouting ' were is this so called western tolerance?'

Honestly, I don't know. it's not in my power to change things.

Nobody can deny, that the future lies in the hand of our children. Fact is also, more muslim children get born than christian. But, then, I ask myself a question? Will this 'new' muslim generation living in the west also not become tempted by western values, like playing 'gameboy' instead of praying, chatting on Yahoo, running through streets the head plunged staring permantely on the cellphone, texting, instead of reading the Quaran?
Will then Islam in a few generation start to adopt a more secular postion coz today's children are the grownups from tomorrow?

I strongly believe, that, if tomorrow, Islam would take place in Western countries, christians would go underground, hide, and who knows, maybe also start to play 'suicide bombers' in the name of God ! Then again, muslims will get angry and call every christians 'terrorists'
That would then be a déjà-vu, no?

... like Freddy Mercury said, the 'Show must go on'...
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SATalha
07-27-2007, 09:35 AM
Great post and good points of reflection. Just wanted to say that you make a point about the next Muslim generation and how they might be tempted by Western/secular values? If this is the case than i suggest you come take a visit to East London, great changes are taking place there Inshallah. I think this is the case with many places, you know the old saying "no such thing as bad publicity"? With the media coverage that we are recieving, Muslims around the world are asking "hey whats the big deal with this Islam". Ans so they research and find out and learn the facts. I'll give you an example of a Muslim who did this...........Me.

Anyway there is no doubt that a clash in ideology is taking place, the question then becomes can they co-exist..........oh i have the answer YES they can. We have been doing that since my Gramps came from the Shores of Bengal and landed on the soil of Britain.
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Pygoscelis
07-27-2007, 09:41 AM
Doesn't matter to me which religion reigns superior, Islam or Christianity, so long as I can continue to live free from it.
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KAding
07-27-2007, 09:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Doesn't matter to me which religion reigns superior, Islam or Christianity, so long as I can continue to live free from it.
So naive :D.
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SATalha
07-27-2007, 10:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Doesn't matter to me which religion reigns superior, Islam or Christianity, so long as I can continue to live free from it.
I gues so. But the wave will continue.
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Amadeus85
07-27-2007, 10:17 AM
I dont think that islam would become the major faith of Europe some day. Islam may be major religion in some parts of Europe, in some cities, but not in the whole continent. I think that europeans will close the borders early enough, and they wont allow to create Eurabia.
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SATalha
07-27-2007, 10:19 AM
Eurabia......why would it be called that? Anway what will happen tomorrow is in Allahs will. But the way things are looking......well you never know. I can only speak for my community and Mashallah it looks cool.
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Amadeus85
07-27-2007, 10:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
Eurabia......why would it be called that? Anway what will happen tomorrow is in Allahs will. But the way things are looking......well you never know. I can only speak for my community and Mashallah it looks cool.
Eurabia, Londonistan, Al Andaluz, Marseille Caliphate, there may be many names. But as i said, not the whole continent. Because it wouldnt be Europe anymore, rather Eurabia.
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thirdwatch512
07-27-2007, 10:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman

By the way, I am curious. Do you have any particular reaction to that fact that Islam could become Europe's dominant religion? Do you see it as maybe a good or a bad thing?

Regards
I know that you weren't asking me lol, but I think this is something that more then one person needs to answer.

For me, as a Christian, I see it as a.. Well, scary thing for islam to grow. The reason is not so much because islam is a bad religion, but rather because the West is soo different. I think it will be VERY VERY hard to segregate women and men in our society. I also think that it will be ESPECIALLY hard for Europe to give up wine. I come from a French family, and wine is everyday thing to us. It is like tea for the Americans. If you don't drink wine in Europe, you are crazy! Everyone has a little wine cabinent and such. It is essential. And it will be hard to give up the great taste of wine.

Also, I think it will be hard for many people on the issue of homoseuxality.. Many americans have gay/lebian friends. Hah, anywhere from 6-10% of our population IS gay! Lol. So that would be something hard for us to accept.. To go back in time and start disapproving of homosexuality.

It also will exceptionally hard to give up the artistic culture of europe and many urban cities in America. Giving up music will be especially hard.

Also, pets.. We all love our pets here! 34% of Americans have dogs. And it would seriously cause problems if islam became dominant.

Ah, but I am speaking mainly if a lot of people convert. If someone mvoves to Europe already muslim, then they already probably do not drink wine, have dogs, etc. But, it will be hard for us europeans to accept a culture that is far more conservative.

The vast majority of my friends are female. That's how it is for many people. And it would be hard to see that as being unacceptable i nthe eyes of some.

Ultimetely though, I am confident that islam will not take over. Trust me, right wing neo conservative policies are taking over. And many muslims are moving to islamic lands.. Many. I think that if islam does ever take over, it will be a slow gradual process.. and, it would not hurt society so much. It will be like albanian muslims.. drink, strippers, secular! Lol

So it's not so much a bad thing, it's just a total change of our culture, which will not go too well..
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
I dont think that islam would become the major faith of Europe some day. Islam may be major religion in some parts of Europe, in some cities, but not in the whole continent. I think that europeans will close the borders early enough, and they wont allow to create Eurabia.
True! I think that the situation for muslims is getting really bad here in the west (especially in the UK) I think that ultimetely immigration will be virtually stopped form islamic nations, and muslims will leave. Plus, if an ummah ever gets established (which I would support) many muslims would leave.

I think you can bank on this. The same secularization that happened to Christianity will happen to Islam if it is submerged in western culture. I see this as a good thing, but I'm sure many muslims would see it as something to avoid.
Hah, are you kidding me? Granted, I know it happened EXTREMELY quickly in albania and bosnia, but that is because of communism. I doubt islam will ever secularize/liberalize. I wish. But no. Plus, converts generally adhere to the values more, and here in america at least, I think we will soon see more converts then born muslims.
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SATalha
07-27-2007, 11:00 AM
Your right. Some of our revert broz n sis put us to shame.
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beespreeteam
07-27-2007, 11:57 AM
At least it shows muslims are holding on to islam..
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Keltoi
07-27-2007, 02:22 PM
This is completely theoretical, but say the economies of Europe go into depression. Not unlike the situation with Germany after WWI. It is situations like this that produce cultural backlashes. People always look for someone to blame. Taking history into account, all the elements exist in Europe(and in the U.S.), for far right-wing control of government. By "far right-wing" I'm not talking George Bush-wing, I'm talking Adolph Hitler-wing. Right now the American economy is strong, and nobody is thinking about it. However, the economies in Europe, especially France, are stagnant. Perhaps we've learned enough from Germany to avoid that scenario, but somehow I doubt it.
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Muezzin
07-27-2007, 02:25 PM
The word 'Eurabia' is just one of the funniest portmanteaus since... Brangelina.

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
This is completely theoretical, but say the economies of Europe go into depression. Not unlike the situation with Germany after WWI. It is situations like this that produce cultural backlashes. People always look for someone to blame. Taking history into account, all the elements exist in Europe(and in the U.S.), for far right-wing control of government. By "far right-wing" I'm not talking George Bush-wing, I'm talking Adolph Hitler-wing. Right now the American economy is strong, and nobody is thinking about it. However, the economies in Europe, especially France, are stagnant. Perhaps we've learned enough from Germany to avoid that scenario, but somehow I doubt it.
Ah don't worry, I'll make gas masks should that eventuality ever occur. :p
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KAding
07-27-2007, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
This is completely theoretical, but say the economies of Europe go into depression. Not unlike the situation with Germany after WWI. It is situations like this that produce cultural backlashes. People always look for someone to blame. Taking history into account, all the elements exist in Europe(and in the U.S.), for far right-wing control of government. By "far right-wing" I'm not talking George Bush-wing, I'm talking Adolph Hitler-wing. Right now the American economy is strong, and nobody is thinking about it. However, the economies in Europe, especially France, are stagnant. Perhaps we've learned enough from Germany to avoid that scenario, but somehow I doubt it.
Anything is possible of course, but democracies are much more firmly established now than they were in the 1920-30s. So I'm weary of the comparison. So while I believe we could move towards a bit more authoritarianism, I don't think it is likely at all that developed Western European countries will move towards a dictatorial form of government.
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Muezzin
07-27-2007, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Anything is possible of course, but democracies are much more firmly established now than they were in the 1920-30s. So I'm weary of the comparison. So while I believe we could move towards a bit more authoritarianism, I don't think it is likely at all that developed Western European countries will move towards a dictatorial form of government.
Maybe, but given today's climate (both political and meteorological) all it would take is a jab or two to rattle people's cages so much that they desire a super-strong cage with barbed wire and electrified bars to keep out the scapegoats.
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SATalha
07-27-2007, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Anything is possible of course, but democracies are much more firmly established now than they were in the 1920-30s. So I'm weary of the comparison. So while I believe we could move towards a bit more authoritarianism, I don't think it is likely at all that developed Western European countries will move towards a dictatorial form of government.
Yeah iam so proud of democracy and the uncurrupted guvernments of the west. And and and Iraq oh the joy.
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KAding
07-27-2007, 02:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
Yeah iam so proud of democracy and the uncurrupted guvernments of the west. And and and Iraq oh the joy.
Iraq does not a have well-established democracy. The UK has. That does not mean the UK does not fight wars. I never said it did.

If you think it is bad in the UK now for Muslims, I can assure you it can get so much worse. At least now you know what is going wrong, in a dictatorship you wouldn't even know that, since there would be no information from Iraq or about Belmarsh.
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Amadeus85
07-27-2007, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
The word 'Eurabia' is just one of the funniest portmanteaus since... Brangelina.

You know, this term Eurabia wasnt invented by Oriana Fallacci, and Bat Ye Or. "Eurabia" was a magazine created in 70's to promote muslim culture in Europe and promote multiculturalism in old contonent.
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Muezzin
07-27-2007, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
You know, this term Eurabia wasnt invented by Oriana Fallacci, and Bat Ye Or. "Eurabia" was a magazine created in 70's to promote muslim culture in Europe and promote multiculturalism in old contonent.
I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. It does still sound funny to me, though. :)
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Cognescenti
07-27-2007, 05:44 PM
"Eurabia"....:D :D

Never heard that before. Really funny.
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Cognescenti
07-27-2007, 06:56 PM
Hey...when y'all take over Europe, please don't add any minarettes to St. Paul's or Notre Dame or Chartres...strictly from an aesthetic standpoint, you understand.
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Chiteng
07-28-2007, 02:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SATalha
Yeah iam so proud of democracy and the uncurrupted guvernments of the west. And and and Iraq oh the joy.

You overlook that it SHOULD be bad for Islamics in the UK.

ANY religion, that thinks it is special, and deserves special treatment,
should be invited to leave.

NO religion, is any better, than any other. THAT, is Democracy.

Like those Islamic meat packers in the USA, that lost their jobs (they were
fired) because they insisted on stopping work, and praying, while the line is running. There are other workers available that DONT, do that.
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barney
07-28-2007, 03:17 AM
Europe nearly was Dominated by Islam. Marcel and Vlad the Impaler amongst others defeated them, so that eventually Islam only Conqured Spain, Byzantine including the Balkans, Rhodes and the Mediteranian islands. The attacks ground to a halt with growing European unity , ruthless counterattacks and and secularism bringing about military superiority.

With no chance now of defeating Europe by the sword or assault rifle, Islam can only become the dominat religion in Europe by Europeans accepting it.
Since Europe chucked Religion finally onto the scrapheap over the last few centuries and replaced it with rationalism and logic, It cant happen.
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Skywalker
07-28-2007, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chiteng
You overlook that it SHOULD be bad for Islamics in the UK.

ANY religion, that thinks it is special, and deserves special treatment,
should be invited to leave.

NO religion, is any better, than any other. THAT, is Democracy.

Like those Islamic meat packers in the USA, that lost their jobs (they were
fired) because they insisted on stopping work, and praying, while the line is running. There are other workers available that DONT, do that
First of all, what's, with, all, the, commas? Whew!

Secondly...you think us "Islamics" are the only one that think their religion is better than anyone elses? Look again. Christianity calls itself the best, Judaism calls itself the best, Baha'i calls itself the best, etc. It wouldn't be a religion of choice if it claimed to be inferior to all others.

Actually democracy is NOT denying superiority of a particular religion or what not, but letting the people decide for themselves what they want based on consensus. I don't see how the two are incompatible.

Lastly, it's wrong for them to halt production for prayer BUT if a large number of workers are Muslims, then the company should automatically give them a prayer break just like they give lunch breaks.

format_quote Originally Posted by Barney
With no chance now of defeating Europe by the sword or assault rifle, Islam can only become the dominat religion in Europe by Europeans accepting it.
Maybe then you'll be convinced that Islam doesn't need weapons to spread :)

Since Europe chucked Religion finally onto the scrapheap over the last few centuries and replaced it with rationalism and logic, It cant happen.
You'd be surprised...especially since Islam is the pinnacle of rationalism and logic. That's why the Europeans feared us in the old days and launched their Crusades.

format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Hey...when y'all take over Europe, please don't add any minarettes to St. Paul's or Notre Dame or Chartres...strictly from an aesthetic standpoint, you understand.
C'mon dude, minarets are mad cool. I can just imagine Quasi Modo jumping around Notre Dame cathedral...only to slam facefirst into a newly-built minaret. ;D
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barney
07-28-2007, 04:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker
Whats with all the commars?

Maybe then you'll be convinced that Islam doesn't need weapons to spread :)


You'd be surprised...especially since Islam is the pinnacle of rationalism and logic. That's why the Europeans feared us in the old days and launched their Crusades.


C'mon dude, minarets are mad cool. I can just imagine Quasi Modo jumping around Notre Dame cathedral...only to slam facefirst into a newly-built minaret. ;D

1) It's ,World, commar, day,today.
2) It was spread by a combination of sword and treaty. Hopefully at some point the former part will stop.
3) I think our understandings of what makes up rationality and logic are crazily wildly far apart! :D
4) Doughnuts. replace all spires and minerets in the world with huge golden doughnuts that you can really really eat.
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Chiteng
07-28-2007, 01:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skywalker
First of all, what's, with, all, the, commas? Whew!

Secondly...you think us "Islamics" are the only one that think their religion is better than anyone elses? Look again. Christianity calls itself the best, Judaism calls itself the best, Baha'i calls itself the best, etc. It wouldn't be a religion of choice if it claimed to be inferior to all others.

Actually democracy is NOT denying superiority of a particular religion or what not, but letting the people decide for themselves what they want based on consensus. I don't see how the two are incompatible.

Lastly, it's wrong for them to halt production for prayer BUT if a large number of workers are Muslims, then the company should automatically give them a prayer break just like they give lunch breaks.


;D
No they should NOT. The employers should do whatever they wish.
They own the company.
The employees can always decide to NOT work there.
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Skywalker
07-28-2007, 05:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
1) It's ,World, commar, day,today.
In that case... HAPPY, COMMA, DAY, EVERYBODY! ,,,,,,,,,,

2) It was spread by a combination of sword and treaty. Hopefully at some point the former part will stop.
I think for the most part it has...because not many people use swords anymore ;D Seriously though, maybe you should do some research on how Islam reached the Far East.

3) I think our understandings of what makes up rationality and logic are crazily wildly far apart!
Perhaps...

4) Doughnuts. replace all spires and minerets in the world with huge golden doughnuts that you can really really eat.
You must be a cop.

format_quote Originally Posted by Chiteng
No they should NOT. The employers should do whatever they wish.
They own the company.
The employees can always decide to NOT work there.
I meant that they 'should' out of sympathy and understanding, not that they must. Either way, for most 9 to 5 jobs, there's only one prayer to consided (the dhuhr), which could easily be prayed at lunch time...
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Encolpius
07-28-2007, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
If you think it is bad in the UK now for Muslims, I can assure you it can get so much worse.
Absolutely. Look at how the Christian minority in Pakistan's treated. From what I've read of that, the word "apartheid" wouldn't go far amiss.
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SATalha
07-28-2007, 09:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chiteng
You overlook that it SHOULD be bad for Islamics in the UK.

ANY religion, that thinks it is special, and deserves special treatment,
should be invited to leave.

NO religion, is any better, than any other. THAT, is Democracy.

Like those Islamic meat packers in the USA, that lost their jobs (they were
fired) because they insisted on stopping work, and praying, while the line is running. There are other workers available that DONT, do that.
Dude iam not talking about the treatment of Muslims......iam talking about democracy that protects the idividual.....iam talking baout democracy that has a sneaky way in maintaining the poor people of the world in that status......iam talking about the democracy that stole and stole for centuries from a continent and left it shattered.......iam talking about the democracy that kills its own leaders to maintain certain ideologies.........iam talking about democracy that loves to mingle in anything that isnt democracy..........man you want men to continue!
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Darkseid
07-29-2007, 04:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
LAHORE: As the Anglican Communion continues to fight over homosexuality and as church attendance plummets, experts say that Islam is well on its way to becoming the most dominant religion in Europe, according to an article posted on CNSNews.com. Meeting in London this week in their General Synod, leaders of the Church of England continued to debate the role of gay and lesbian priests. This follows another meeting in Tanzania in which Anglican bishops issued an official warning over the matter to the Episcopal Church – the American wing of the communion. Meanwhile, research studies show that church attendance in Britain is dropping precipitously, as well as across the whole of Western Europe. According to Christian Research, a British think tank, only 6.3 percent of the British population in 2005 attended Christian services on a weekly basis. But while church attendance on the continent reportedly shows a similar decline, the Muslim population has exploded, said the CNSNews.com article. It quoted experts as saying that in recent years, young European Muslims had been returning to the faith which their parents observed only sporadically, becoming much more devout. Christian Research said that in 35 years, there would be twice as many Muslims in mosques on Friday as there are Christians in churches on Sunday. Europe has seen a wave of Muslim immigration over the last century, and some experts predict they will become the dominant population by the end of this century. In January, a British government-sponsored think tank projected that Muslims would be the majority population of Germany by 2046. Brent Nelson, an expert on European Islam, told the Cybercast News Service that it was hard to guess what a Europe with a large Muslim minority would look like. However, he said that unless Christians and Muslims as a whole learned to compromise and live together, there was a danger of a clash between the two cultures. A professor of religious studies at Glasgow University said she thought increasing numbers of Christians would convert to Islam in the coming years.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...4-3-2007_pg1_3
Stop dreaming.

With Druze, Bahai'i faith, and Sihkism arising from Islam in much the same way Christianity arose from Judaism and Islam from Christianity, do you honestly expect that Islam will flourish in Europe?

The Europeans aren't likely to convert to Islam is much higher numbers than they will in athiesm. I am sorry but as the world becomes more educated in sciences and such, the likelihood of them turning towards Islam rather than athiesm is extremely likely.

So what do you expect?

Now you could emphasizing on immigration of muslims into Europe. And I could agree that 200 million muslims from India into Europe would definitely make Islam the major religionin Europe, but then you would loose what ever you had in India to Hinduism.

Then again you could seek to over-populate that way you don't lose India, but then that would kill off our already hurting food industry making people starve and eventually resort to cannibalism. We already nearly more than five billion above where we should be in terms of population mainly thanks to China, India, Japan, and certain other parts of the world.

To be honest it is a very naive opinion to believe in this sort of thing. How do you know that the Islam that is in Europe won't be taken over by another take over sect, like maybe Dudubabaism or something like that? And maybe Dudubabaism becomes the major religion in Albania, Turkish Thrace, Bulgaria, Malta and other areas of muslim areas of Southern Europe.

I believe that Islam will eventually die off along with christianity and Judaism.

People are starting to move away from these socially-fixed religions and starting to become the prophets of their own beliefs.

Eventually all there will be is Athiesm and Individual Faith.

People are moving away from Religious Socialism and starting to become individuals. Individuals before god and individuals before themselves. What is wrong with that?
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جوري
07-29-2007, 04:51 AM
Michel de Notredame has spoken everyone........let's all wait and see if those cryptic predictions come to be... Anyone else experiencing an episode of oscitancy?
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Uthman
07-29-2007, 09:28 AM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
With Druze, Bahai'i faith, and Sihkism arising from Islam in much the same way Christianity arose from Judaism and Islam from Christianity, do you honestly expect that Islam will flourish in Europe?
As far as I'm aware, Islam is growing a lot faster that the other faiths you mentioned. Islam is already flourishing in Europe.

format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
The Europeans aren't likely to convert to Islam is much higher numbers than they will in athiesm. I am sorry but as the world becomes more educated in sciences and such, the likelihood of them turning towards Islam rather than athiesm is extremely likely.
I think you meant to say unlikely? That's neither here nor there anyway. Atheism is not a religion.

format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
Now you could emphasizing on immigration of muslims into Europe. And I could agree that 200 million muslims from India into Europe would definitely make Islam the major religion in Europe, but then you would loose what ever you in India to Hinduism.
Well yeah, but 200 million muslims emigrating from India to Europe is an unlikely possibility.

format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
To be honest it is a very naive opinion to believe in this sort of thing. How do you know that the Islam that is in Europe won't be taken over by another take over sect, like maybe Dudubabaism or something like that? And maybe Dudubabaism becomes the major religion in Albania, Turkish Thrace, Bulgaria, Malta and other areas of muslim areas of Southern Europe.
All evidence points to the contrary.

format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
I believe that Islam will eventually die off along with christianity and Judaism.
I don't.

format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
People are starting to move away from these socially-fixed religions and starting to become the prophets of their own beliefs.
I don't understand what you mean by socially-fixed religions. Please explain what you mean by that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
Eventually all there will be is Athiesm and Individual Faith.
I don't believe that is all there will be.

format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
People are moving away from Religious Socialism and starting to become individuals. Individuals before god and individuals before themselves. What is wrong with that?
People are already individuals. You seem to imply that people are not already believing what they want to believe. I don't think that is the case.

Regards
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Keltoi
07-29-2007, 02:45 PM
This is similar to the mindset of many Mexicans, legal and illegal, in the United States. Groups like La Raza believe that so many Mexicans will immigrate to the U.S. that Mexicans will become a solid majority in the southwestern states. I believe that is really the issue. I don't see mass conversion taking place. If Islam does become the "dominant" religion, it will be because of immigration and birth rate, not unlike the Mexican experience in the U.S.
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Uthman
07-30-2007, 05:41 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
If Islam does become the "dominant" religion, it will be because of immigration and birth rate, not unlike the Mexican experience in the U.S.
I agree with that, although conversion would still also be a factor, however minor. :)

Regards
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Cognescenti
07-30-2007, 06:47 PM
Islam is no more likely to become the dominant religion of Europe than is a Martian landing in New Jersey.

There is already pushback. The immigration tap will (or has already) be turned off. Even those nations that pride themselves on welcoming the politically oppressed (Sweden, the Netherlands) are sick of it. The French are half-ready to elect Le Penn to return themselves to Gaulic glory. The Spaniards are tired of Muslims trying to say Islamic prayers at (now) Christian churches. the Germans are tired of the Turks. The Brits are tired of somebody trying to blow them up when they get on a public conveyance.

Conversion or reproductive fecundity are not going to be enough.
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Cognescenti
07-30-2007, 07:05 PM
BTW...if everyone in Europe wants to convert to Islam..fine by me. It would be hard on tourism in Southern France and the Greek Islands and Mallorca but they could go back to fishing for sardines or whatever they used to do.
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wilberhum
07-30-2007, 07:36 PM
Islam could become Europe’s dominant religion
These kind of statements always make me wonder.
If that happens, will it prove Islam is the one and only true religion?
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Uthman
07-30-2007, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
If that happens, will it prove Islam is the one and only true religion?
Not to you. But I can't say it won't serve as a means of confirmation to other Muslims. :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
There is already pushback. The immigration tap will (or has already) be turned off. Even those nations that pride themselves on welcoming the politically oppressed (Sweden, the Netherlands) are sick of it. The French are half-ready to elect Le Penn to return themselves to Gaulic glory. The Spaniards are tired of Muslims trying to say Islamic prayers at (now) Christian churches. the Germans are tired of the Turks. The Brits are tired of somebody trying to blow them up when they get on a public conveyance.

Conversion or reproductive fecundity are not going to be enough.
That may be true, but growth of Islam in Europe is showing no signs of decreasing as far as I am aware. It is increasing, if at the pace of a snail, but increasing nonetheless. I know that my local mosque is Jam-packed on a Friday

Couple with that, the decline of Christianity.... (by that I mean declining Church attendance)

Think of it as a graph. One line shows Islam growing and the other line shows Christianity declining. One day the lines are inevitably going to cross. That day may be a long way away. Maybe a very long way away, but it looks like it is going to happen.

Btw, no offence is intended towards Christian members. I have the utmost respect for Christianity as a religion and Christians as a people.

Regards
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wilberhum
07-30-2007, 08:17 PM
But I can't say it won't serve as a means of confirmation to other Muslims.
Using that logic they should be come Christians now.
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Uthman
07-30-2007, 08:23 PM
That's certainly one way of looking at it. Would you like me to explain the other or...?
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wilberhum
07-30-2007, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
That's certainly one way of looking at it. Would you like me to explain the other or...?
No, not really. :embarrass I wouldn't want this to be a serious conversation. :D

I was just being silly because I find the whole thing silly. :rolleyes:
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Uthman
07-30-2007, 08:27 PM
:D I was looking for this emoticon earlier
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Cognescenti
07-30-2007, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Not to you. But I can't say it won't serve as a means of confirmation to other Muslims. :)



That may be true, but growth of Islam in Europe is showing no signs of decreasing as far as I am aware. It is increasing, if at the pace of a snail, but increasing nonetheless. I know that my local mosque is Jam-packed on a Friday

Couple with that, the decline of Christianity.... (by that I mean declining Church attendance)

Think of it as a graph. One line shows Islam growing and the other line shows Christianity declining. One day the lines are inevitably going to cross. That day may be a long way away. Maybe a very long way away, but it looks like it is going to happen.

Btw, no offence is intended towards Christian members. I have the utmost respect for Christianity as a religion and Christians as a people.

Regards
To an extent, I agree, but what is really on the ascent in Western Europe is secularism. Even Christians who no longer attend a weekly church service may well get their hackles up if someone begins to impugn their religious tradition, or, even worse, suggest their lifestyle is morally inferior, or, much worse, propose laws or social norms to restrict their freedoms. Then, all of a sudden, there will be Christians all over the place. ;D

On my last trip to Europe, I was in Paris on a Sunday. I passed church after beautiful church, most empty except for a few old ladies until I came to one Catholic church which had worshipers spilling out into the vestibule and even the courtyard. There was a loudspeaker so those outside could participate. Lots of young people (mostly 20-30's)..a few babies. They were all having WAY more fun than I ever remember having at church. The Mass was in Polish :D
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Amadeus85
07-30-2007, 10:58 PM
To an extent, I agree, but what is really on the ascent in Western Europe is secularism. Even Christians who no longer attend a weekly church service may well get their hackles up if someone begins to impugn their religious tradition, or, even worse, suggest their lifestyle is morally inferior, or, much worse, propose laws or social norms to restrict their freedoms. Then, all of a sudden, there will be Christians all over the place. ;D
Yes it is very true,

On my last trip to Europe, I was in Paris on a Sunday. I passed church after beautiful church, most empty except for a few old ladies until I came to one Catholic church which had worshipers spilling out into the vestibule and even the courtyard. There was a loudspeaker so those outside could participate. Lots of young people (mostly 20-30's)..a few babies. They were all having WAY more fun than I ever remember having at church. The Mass was in Polish :D
Dang! and in the beginnig i was close to believe that the French came back to faith at last :giggling:
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KAding
07-31-2007, 12:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
That may be true, but growth of Islam in Europe is showing no signs of decreasing as far as I am aware. It is increasing, if at the pace of a snail, but increasing nonetheless. I know that my local mosque is Jam-packed on a Friday
Well. There are no reliable figures on the growth of Islam in Europe. How many Muslims in Europe really follow Islam? How many kids do the later generations have that were themselves born here? Are they immune to the same social changes that brought down the fertility rate among indigenous Europeans? What about immigration? Are more Muslims coming into Europe now then, say, in the last few decades. Will Muslims go from a few percent to a majority in Europe this century? So many different questions, so few real answers. A lot of wishful/doomsday thinking on both sides though.

My thoughts on this, based on research in the Netherlands.
1. Muslims are not immune to modern decline of birth rates. Second generation Muslim women have the same birth rates as the Dutch themselves for example.
2. Immigration policies are becoming more strict. Policy is to prevent family reunions or importing brides. Clearly these are having an effect on the immigration rates. Countries that are strict, like Denmark and Holland, have seen quite drastic reductions in the influx of immigrants.
3. The number of actual converts to Islam seems very low, although there are no accurate figures on this.

All of this makes me believe the wishful/doomsday thinking is based on the false assumption that nothing will change.

Couple with that, the decline of Christianity.... (by that I mean declining Church attendance)

Think of it as a graph. One line shows Islam growing and the other line shows Christianity declining. One day the lines are inevitably going to cross. That day may be a long way away. Maybe a very long way away, but it looks like it is going to happen.
Which has nothing to do with Muslims becoming a majority. Church attendance is not declining because these Christians become Muslims, its declining because they are becoming atheists and agnostics or ditching organized religion in favor of a more personal approach to religion. To use your graph example, it would mean a rise of the non-religious group mostly.

Btw, no offence is intended towards Christian members. I have the utmost respect for Christianity as a religion and Christians as a people.

Regards
None taken :D.
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wilberhum
07-31-2007, 09:03 PM
What would happen if Islam becomes Europe’s dominant religion?

More Mosques being build? Less pork served? Increase in the sale of head scarves?

But would laws change? I don’t think so. I doubt that those “Non Church Going Christians” are willing to give up there freedom of speech or religion laws.

Will the atheist and agnostics not voice there opinions.

Will the “Moderate Muslims” want the kind of laws and restrictions that exist in the Middle East?

I don’t think the changes would be that dramatic.
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Amadeus85
07-31-2007, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
What would happen if Islam becomes Europe’s dominant religion?

More Mosques being build? Less pork served? Increase in the sale of head scarves?

But would laws change? I don’t think so. I doubt that those “Non Church Going Christians” are willing to give up there freedom of speech or religion laws.

Will the atheist and agnostics not voice there opinions.

Will the “Moderate Muslims” want the kind of laws and restrictions that exist in the Middle East?

I don’t think the changes would be that dramatic.


There are already few places in Europe, where muslims became majority in former christian lands, for example Kosovo or Bosnia. You can check informations how atheists and non muslims feel there. :playing:
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Darkseid
08-06-2007, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings,



As far as I'm aware, Islam is growing a lot faster that the other faiths you mentioned. Islam is already flourishing in Europe.
It is not really growwing. It is just a lot of muslim procreation that establishing a high birth rate of more muslims. There is little if any conversion of muslims in any part of the world except in tribal areas of Africa and Indonesia and still it isn't really that big.

The whole Islam growwing idea is relatively weak, because if Islam was really such a powerful religion as you proclaim it be then the entire world would have turn entirely muslim about three centuries ago. Now why has it? Because the whole muslim growth issue is nothing more than an elaboration if not a fabrication.




I think you meant to say unlikely? That's neither here nor there anyway. Atheism is not a religion.
True it is not a religion, but that is irrelevant and dumbfoundedly obvious.

Well yeah, but 200 million muslims emigrating from India to Europe is an unlikely possibility.
I know that was why I was being sarcastic.


All evidence points to the contrary.
What evidence?


I don't.
Good for you.


I don't understand what you mean by socially-fixed religions. Please explain what you mean by that.
Religions where people are bounded by the society. For instance, in Egypt you cannot leave the muslim faith or you are thrown into prison if not killed by someone else.


I don't believe that is all there will be.
My knowledge comes from Allah himself, take it up with the big man if you find what I say so unappealing.


People are already individuals.
Not in a socially fixed religion.

You seem to imply that people are not already believing what they want to believe. I don't think that is the case.

Regards
Then you have a lot to learn, child.
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MTAFFI
08-07-2007, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
It is not really growwing. It is just a lot of muslim procreation that establishing a high birth rate of more muslims. There is little if any conversion of muslims in any part of the world except in tribal areas of Africa and Indonesia and still it isn't really that big.

The whole Islam growwing idea is relatively weak, because if Islam was really such a powerful religion as you proclaim it be then the entire world would have turn entirely muslim about three centuries ago. Now why has it? Because the whole muslim growth issue is nothing more than an elaboration if not a fabrication.
I have to kind of agree and disagree with you in some aspects, for one I think that Islam is not really growing as much as it is spreading out a bit. I think that the religion has been somewhat isolated from much of the rest of the world, but now with the media attention accompanied by the people from the M.E. and other places migrating from their homes to new countries, I think it raises awareness and curiosity in some, which may be why it seems that it is growing faster than it really is, however with that said I dont think the procreation has much to do with the numbers. This may raise the numbers by a fraction but like I said I think most of the higher numbers come from immigration and not procreation.

As far as it not being a powerful religion and asking why it has spread, I will say that it is only as powerful as you want it to be, some people may get nothing from it and others may gain a world of knowledge, I think it really has to do with what you want from it. It is a good religion though and although it does recieve a lot of negative attention I do think that one day it will be the dominate religion of our world.

PEACE
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czgibson
08-07-2007, 04:43 PM
Greetings,

Here's something I just posted on another thread where a similar discussion is going on. I should have posted it here, really, as it's more germane to the topic here:

For the statistically-minded:

FAQ from Adherents.com describing why it is difficult to measure the fastest growing religion


P. S. Where I live, in the UK, I don't personally know anyone who has converted to Islam. I don't know anyone who knows anyone who has converted to Islam. Yvonne Ridley and who else?
Peace
Reply

silkworm
08-08-2007, 05:49 PM
Jesus’ followers, however, have not followed him on this point (Jesus’ openness with women) His openness of women and the respect he showed them, was replaced after his death, on the part of the male church officials, by a peculiar mixture of repressed fear, mistrust and arrogance. A poetic testimony to distance women can be found in the second pseudo-, “To the Virgins”, which was presumably composed in the third century but until very late in the modern period went under the name of Pope Clement I (d. 97) and hence was extremely important in clerical education: “With God’s help this is what we do: We do not live with virgins and have nothing to do with them. We do not eat and drink with virgins and where a virgin sleeps there we do not sleep. Women do not wash out feet, nor do they anoint us. And we positively do not sleep where a consecrated virgin is, indeed we do not even stay over night there” (ch. I).

Where the Pseudo-Clement does stay over night, “there may not be any female, neither unmarried girl nor married woman, neither old woman nor one consecrated to God, neither Christian nor pagan maid-servant, but only men may be with men” (ch.2). This pseudo-papal saying is especially curious because its author evidently wanted to outdo Jesus in chastity. He alludes all too clearly to the scene with the sinful woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears, the kissed and anointed them. In his celibate purity the writer would never have allowed anything like this to be done to him. With his peculiar standard of chastity the writer affronts Jesus, who at and drank with women and took no offense at sleeping in a house where women were sleeping too. Clementine letter

These pseudo doctrines helped to promote “Homosexuality” among clerics that spread like wildfire and stands visible till this date.
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czgibson
08-08-2007, 06:17 PM
Greetings,

The post about 'Jesus' followers' above comes from "Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven, The Catholic Church and Sexuality" by Ranke-Heinemann, apparently.

What is its relevance to the topic of this thread?

Peace
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Darkseid
08-09-2007, 02:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I have to kind of agree and disagree with you in some aspects, for one I think that Islam is not really growing as much as it is spreading out a bit. I think that the religion has been somewhat isolated from much of the rest of the world, but now with the media attention accompanied by the people from the M.E. and other places migrating from their homes to new countries, I think it raises awareness and curiosity in some, which may be why it seems that it is growing faster than it really is, however with that said I dont think the procreation has much to do with the numbers. This may raise the numbers by a fraction but like I said I think most of the higher numbers come from immigration and not procreation.

As far as it not being a powerful religion and asking why it has spread, I will say that it is only as powerful as you want it to be, some people may get nothing from it and others may gain a world of knowledge, I think it really has to do with what you want from it. It is a good religion though and although it does recieve a lot of negative attention I do think that one day it will be the dominate religion of our world.

PEACE
Muslim men are allowed to have as many as four wives and from those wives they can have as many as fourty if not more children. Plus most people tend to get married rather young and there can also be a lot of rape related events in areas where ethnic and religious diversity takes present like in Kurdistan.

format_quote Originally Posted by silkworm
Jesus’ followers, however, have not followed him on this point (Jesus’ openness with women) His openness of women and the respect he showed them, was replaced after his death, on the part of the male church officials, by a peculiar mixture of repressed fear, mistrust and arrogance. A poetic testimony to distance women can be found in the second pseudo-, “To the Virgins”, which was presumably composed in the third century but until very late in the modern period went under the name of Pope Clement I (d. 97) and hence was extremely important in clerical education: “With God’s help this is what we do: We do not live with virgins and have nothing to do with them. We do not eat and drink with virgins and where a virgin sleeps there we do not sleep. Women do not wash out feet, nor do they anoint us. And we positively do not sleep where a consecrated virgin is, indeed we do not even stay over night there” (ch. I).

Where the Pseudo-Clement does stay over night, “there may not be any female, neither unmarried girl nor married woman, neither old woman nor one consecrated to God, neither Christian nor pagan maid-servant, but only men may be with men” (ch.2). This pseudo-papal saying is especially curious because its author evidently wanted to outdo Jesus in chastity. He alludes all too clearly to the scene with the sinful woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears, the kissed and anointed them. In his celibate purity the writer would never have allowed anything like this to be done to him. With his peculiar standard of chastity the writer affronts Jesus, who at and drank with women and took no offense at sleeping in a house where women were sleeping too. Clementine letter

These pseudo doctrines helped to promote “Homosexuality” among clerics that spread like wildfire and stands visible till this date.
That was well (several centuries) after the death of christ and around the same time women begin to lose their rights in the Islamic world. Therefore christians are as faulty in following their faith as muslims. End of story or should gather more information from Allah in response to any more of your allegations?

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

The post about 'Jesus' followers' above comes from "Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven, The Catholic Church and Sexuality" by Ranke-Heinemann, apparently.

What is its relevance to the topic of this thread?

Peace
Nothing, he just felt like attacking christians. So said Allah to me.
Reply

metalted
08-09-2007, 07:12 AM
As a Christian man of hebrew origin. I am concerned as well...
I believe that if this message of peace from muslims is not adopted soon enough christian, and European society should begin to radicalize thier own..

I am very concerned as I carry a name of jewish origin of the vast amounts of 'anti zionist' material throughout the internet, throughout europe, and throughout the muslim world. As the far left is adopting this propaganda as trueth that it is fair game whether or not it will be the jews or the muslims in the middle east and europe that will suffer horrendously as a result of this.

It is also an extremely worrying sign that muslims seem to be at the very least mildly sympathetic to Al Qaida and 'resistance' against the West. I admire the attempts by peace loving muslims particularlly the poster of the thread on coexistance. And I myself prefer Muslims would take this to be the true meaning of islam and we can togethor end our hate and stop the insanity... But I am not sure if this is where the dice will fall....

I have been going through islamic forums for some time... many times I am told "if you want peace fight against the zionists." where? how? Zionists are simply a people like any other... if one were to expect me not to demonize muslims perhaps we should start by not demonizing anyone...But it seems an endemic to Islamic culture, beliefs in vast conspiracies designed to keep them down to proud are they to admit thier own faults... which makes us different, and makes the west weaker...we do admit our faults and to an excessive degree, to where we lack pride in our heritage and culture, to we doubt our own righteousness in our cause. while muslims will fight any where for any cause so long as muslims are somehow involved... china india europe indonesia afganistan it does not matter..

while we are deeply shamed by our own atrocities and go into guilt fests... Many muslims find it the work of zionists, jews.. to the point that muslims who have never met nor seen a jew in his life would execute a man like daniel pearl simply because he was jewish..and obviously had some kind of link to some evil far reaching zionist conspiracy to control the world..suicide bombings 9-11, all the work the jew.

Muslims must find excuses to why America supports Israel, because we are brainwashed by AIPAC or some thing... but fail to realise we simply do not empathise with people who teach kids to become shaheed...we do not empathise with people who use tv stations to tell thier people to kill themselves and take as many jewish apes and pigs along with them, and we do not empathise with people who murder thier own for power, and act out on the demands of clerics calling for mass murder. Americans were the ones to liberate the Jews from nazi concentration camps christians are also feel religious obligation to support israel as well.. as muslims do palestine... we are diametrically opposed to each other..

that is not to say we oppose a 'free palestine' it just means we are opposed to maniacal palestine. we are opposed to the kind of men and women that would glorify violence and genocide. and had there be a choice there would either be a peaceful prosperious non violent palestine with happy palestinians or no palestinians at all..but we must start by ending the culture of violence in palestine...and by the removing of settlements in westbank... and I hope these recent efforts work...but if not..

we must be ready for the army of islam. Americans seem to be the only ones that are proud enough as a people to fight for thier cause.

I realise with these efforts to understand islam, the power of religion, the power of nationalism. a nation without pride is much weaker. this is the down fall of aethiesm unless it is attached to nationalism, and the down fall of liberal ideology. ultimately I see to paths the world could take, as of now I see us begining to head down the path of peace but all that could change in a heartbeat. And I dont see America as losing as there is not enough pride and religious fervor that can stop a cruise missle fired from 1000 miles away....
Reply

beespreeteam
08-09-2007, 07:18 AM
A maniacal palestine? Obviously it's going to be like that if you invade their land, kick them out of their homes and occupy their cities lol.

I agree with some of your points, but I suggest you read this for ideas on why many places are 'radicalised'

http://beespree.com/HistoryHive/A_Hi..._hate_America/

I'm not saying I agree with them, or that it's the right thing, but sometimes you can understand...
Reply

metalted
08-09-2007, 09:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by beespreeteam
A maniacal palestine? Obviously it's going to be like that if you invade their land, kick them out of their homes and occupy their cities lol.

I agree with some of your points, but I suggest you read this for ideas on why many places are 'radicalised'

http://beespree.com/HistoryHive/A_Hi..._hate_America/

I'm not saying I agree with them, or that it's the right thing, but sometimes you can understand...
interesting...although I do not agree about us giving sadam biological weapons (a sample of our biogical materials were bought from our facilities in the name 'research' and chemical precursors were supplied by a large number of different countries, germany france, many others as well.. precursers to chemical weapons can be harmless)

For awhile, reading some of these posts I was begining to almost think that muslims prefered a facist-like state to riegn in on immoral people, as well as against radical islamists. And I have thought that we have no choice but to prop up facist states that are pro america because the alternative.. a virulently anti american government is extremely unfavorable to our interests... In other words, having a democracy in the middle east is of little use to us if they all decided to vote to go to war with us...

such is the strangness of our world, 'fighting for democracy.' means we may not be able to allow for democracy in some lands.
But I may be wrong, I was definently surprised to find very devout muslims who believe in peace and cooperation, particularly from a certain egyptian here... I had a misconception that the more devotion to the faith meant that they would be more against the west other faiths.. I had previously thought more secular muslims were the more peacefull they were.. So I can be wrong..
Reply

Darkseid
08-09-2007, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by metalted
As a Christian man of hebrew origin. I am concerned as well...
I believe that if this message of peace from muslims is not adopted soon enough christian, and European society should begin to radicalize thier own..

I am very concerned as I carry a name of jewish origin of the vast amounts of 'anti zionist' material throughout the internet, throughout europe, and throughout the muslim world. As the far left is adopting this propaganda as trueth that it is fair game whether or not it will be the jews or the muslims in the middle east and europe that will suffer horrendously as a result of this.

It is also an extremely worrying sign that muslims seem to be at the very least mildly sympathetic to Al Qaida and 'resistance' against the West. I admire the attempts by peace loving muslims particularlly the poster of the thread on coexistance. And I myself prefer Muslims would take this to be the true meaning of islam and we can togethor end our hate and stop the insanity... But I am not sure if this is where the dice will fall....

I have been going through islamic forums for some time... many times I am told "if you want peace fight against the zionists." where? how? Zionists are simply a people like any other... if one were to expect me not to demonize muslims perhaps we should start by not demonizing anyone...But it seems an endemic to Islamic culture, beliefs in vast conspiracies designed to keep them down to proud are they to admit thier own faults... which makes us different, and makes the west weaker...we do admit our faults and to an excessive degree, to where we lack pride in our heritage and culture, to we doubt our own righteousness in our cause. while muslims will fight any where for any cause so long as muslims are somehow involved... china india europe indonesia afganistan it does not matter..

while we are deeply shamed by our own atrocities and go into guilt fests... Many muslims find it the work of zionists, jews.. to the point that muslims who have never met nor seen a jew in his life would execute a man like daniel pearl simply because he was jewish..and obviously had some kind of link to some evil far reaching zionist conspiracy to control the world..suicide bombings 9-11, all the work the jew.

Muslims must find excuses to why America supports Israel, because we are brainwashed by AIPAC or some thing... but fail to realise we simply do not empathise with people who teach kids to become shaheed...we do not empathise with people who use tv stations to tell thier people to kill themselves and take as many jewish apes and pigs along with them, and we do not empathise with people who murder thier own for power, and act out on the demands of clerics calling for mass murder. Americans were the ones to liberate the Jews from nazi concentration camps christians are also feel religious obligation to support israel as well.. as muslims do palestine... we are diametrically opposed to each other..

that is not to say we oppose a 'free palestine' it just means we are opposed to maniacal palestine. we are opposed to the kind of men and women that would glorify violence and genocide. and had there be a choice there would either be a peaceful prosperious non violent palestine with happy palestinians or no palestinians at all..but we must start by ending the culture of violence in palestine...and by the removing of settlements in westbank... and I hope these recent efforts work...but if not..

we must be ready for the army of islam. Americans seem to be the only ones that are proud enough as a people to fight for thier cause.

I realise with these efforts to understand islam, the power of religion, the power of nationalism. a nation without pride is much weaker. this is the down fall of aethiesm unless it is attached to nationalism, and the down fall of liberal ideology. ultimately I see to paths the world could take, as of now I see us begining to head down the path of peace but all that could change in a heartbeat. And I dont see America as losing as there is not enough pride and religious fervor that can stop a cruise missle fired from 1000 miles away....
Israel is no longer the enemy of Islam. Islam has become its own enemy and soon when U.S. forces pull out of Iraq. A full fledged war between the Sunni forces of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Oman, Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt will wage against the Shiite forces of Iran and Azerbaijan. There will be many christrian countries sides between the two forces of their picked winner and their will also be the Jewish country of Israel siding with the Sunnies against the possible annihilation presented by Iran's bigotry.

This is all prophecized.
Reply

beespreeteam
08-09-2007, 03:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
Israel is no longer the enemy of Islam. Islam has become its own enemy and soon when U.S. forces pull out of Iraq. A full fledged war between the Sunni forces of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Oman, Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt will wage against the Shiite forces of Iran and Azerbaijan. There will be many christrian countries sides between the two forces of their picked winner and their will also be the Jewish country of Israel siding with the Sunnies against the possible annihilation presented by Iran's bigotry.

This is all prophecized.
Highest number of Troops there right now

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/07/...-level-of-war/

Either way, interesting: where has this been prophicized?
Reply

Cognescenti
08-09-2007, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by beespreeteam
Highest number of Troops there right now

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/07/...-level-of-war/

Either way, interesting: where has this been prophicized?
If the US does pull out, I think Darkseid is right. It will be the wealthy Sunni states vs. Iran..most likely as a proxy war fought with Iraqi Sunnis vs Al Sadr's boys. As for any applicable prophecies?? I don't think I'll be making any late mortgage payments just in case they turn out not to be true. Contingency planning, you see.

6 mos ago I would have said 5 to 1 in favor of a substantial US withdrawal, now with some success in Sunni tribal elders turning agaisnt AQI, now I am not so sure. It seems more like 1 to 1. Those Democrats hoping for bad news seem to be getting a bit nervous. Political compromise among th Iraqis is still elusive. We will see what kind of reception General Petraeus gets in Septmenber in the US Congress.
Reply

Darkseid
08-10-2007, 01:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by beespreeteam
Highest number of Troops there right now

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/07/...-level-of-war/

Either way, interesting: where has this been prophicized?
Under a numerous number of accounts from the Jewish appocalytic scripture to the New Testament in what can be seen as a devastating war of chilling factors that will become a reality across the sacred land.

But you see the problem is that this is all too much likely to become a reality.

LOOK!

Iran wants Kuwait. Iran wants the Saudi Lands. We all know this.

Turkey wants to take control of the Kurdish lands, Armenia, Western Greece, Southern Bulgaria, and perhaps even Azerbaijan by simple connection of Turkic languages.

Just as the map below shows.



It also will provide you the future of the rest of the Middle East as it is gobbled up by Iran, Israel after it is nuked off the map, and Lebanon in the potential possibility of being assimilated into Syria.

In light yellow I provide to you the possible future of Iran's territorial boundaries for if it should seek to take territory formally belonging to it in historical accounts.

And in red and yellow striped destinated area of Azerbaijan provides a potential dispute of territory between Turkey and Iran on who gets Azerbaijan.

If you live in any part of this world you would either be annihilated (Israeli), assimilated (Lebonese), oppressed (Arabic, Armenian, and Kurdish), or all of the above (Arabic Sunnis not pertaining to Turkey and Syria).

However, this will not become our reality as Iran and Turkey will not be able to accomplish their goals. They will be stoped and defeated during the third world war.
Reply

Cognescenti
08-10-2007, 01:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
In light yellow I provide to you the possible future of Iran's territorial boundaries for if it should seek to take territory formally belonging to it in historical accounts.
I think you may be right on fighting between Iranian and Sunni proxies. The problem is, the line would be drawn at Iranian pressure on Kuwait or Saudi by you know who.
Reply

Darkseid
08-10-2007, 02:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
I think you may be right on fighting between Iranian and Sunni proxies. The problem is, the line would be drawn at Iranian pressure on Kuwait or Saudi by you know who.
You know. Even though you are most definitely not likely to be a muslim. You probably know more about them than they do themselves.

But considering how things have been in the United States, I don't think the Americans will get involved until much later near the end. I do know for a fact this will occur regardlessly. I mean the United States could just stay there for few months after Clinton's or Obama's election into the white house and then be pressured into a civil war or struggle that will immediantly draw forces out. The United States will go to civil war if it should stay any bit longer in iraq after Bush's term is over. The tension is so thick that it can't be cut by a laser.
Reply

silkworm
08-10-2007, 04:25 PM
CZ Gibson, I am happy tha tyou are a wel-read person, ofcourse this excerpt is from the book you named, however I still don't know what I posted this stuff over. I think I must have done this in confusion.
Reply

czgibson
08-11-2007, 11:53 AM
Greetings, silkworm,

I am a very well-read person, but I haven't read the book I mentioned. I just googled the quote and found it!

You must have been thinking of a different thread - never mind.

Peace
Reply

silkworm
08-11-2007, 03:56 PM
Gibson, well you landed fine and this is just of inform you that this lady Uta Renke-Heinemann was a class mate of Current Pope and ofcourse is a religious scholar of high calibre.

Islam could become Europe's dominant religion was basically introduced or foretold by Rene Guenon (A. Wahid Yahya) who was a French Scholar and Philosopher that dominated French Literary circles for some 600 years, he later embraced Islam.

Besides, Europre has nothing to be afraid of Islam, Rene Guenon was of the opinion that Islam would serve Europe in reshaping their lives and get them the desired freedom they are looking for as a sort of "saviour" role, so to say.
Reply

czgibson
08-11-2007, 04:28 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by silkworm
Islam could become Europe's dominant religion was basically introduced or foretold by Rene Guenon (A. Wahid Yahya) who was a French Scholar and Philosopher that dominated French Literary circles for some 600 years, he later embraced Islam.
Do you mean the same René Guénon who died in 1951? I don't know much about the guy, but I can say this with absolute certainty: he didn't dominate French literary circles for 600 years.

Whether he ever dominated French literary circles at all is surely doubtful. His brand of esoteric metaphysics wouldn't have fitted in at all with mainstream French thought of the 20th century, which has been notably anti-metaphysical as well as atheistic.

Besides, Europre has nothing to be afraid of Islam, Rene Guenon was of the opinion that Islam would serve Europe in reshaping their lives and get them the desired freedom they are looking for as a sort of "saviour" role, so to say.
1. Ask Europeans how they feel about that.

2. Are you a fan of Guénon, and if so why?

Peace
Reply

silkworm
08-11-2007, 04:43 PM
Gibson, I actually came across Rene Guenon's name while going through some books and I have a diverse taste i.e. Philosophy, History, Literature, Psycology etc. It was Martin Lings (who also turned Moslem and named himself Abu-Bakr Sirajuddin) book on Prophet Mohammad pbuh, Martin Lings later in his life attracted towards Sufism and wrote a book called Eleventh Hour, this is where he mentioned Rene Guenon.

I am sorry, you are right, it actually was Ibn-e-Rushd (Averroes) who dominated the French scene for 600 years, and whose works were later discarded by the Scholars and Thomas Equinas dominated the scene.

Thanks for mentioning it...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
05-02-2009, 02:36 PM
This is an interesting thread.
Reply

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