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rebelishaulman
03-13-2007, 08:52 PM
Intersting points to make against the idolators who will commonly ask, "why does your G-d not destroy these "idols" as you call our gods."

The Jewish sages were asked by the idolator philosophers at Rome: If G-d is displeased with idol-worship, why does he not destroy the idols?

The Jewish sages replied: If the heathens worshipped but things not needful to the world, he would surely annihilate them; but the fact is that they worship the sun, moon, stars and planets; should then G-d destroy his world on account of these fools?

The Roman idolators replied: Let your G-d destroy the unnecessary idols and leave the other that are needed for the preservation of the world.

The sages then replied: If he did so, the idol-worshippers would but be confirmed in their belief and say: Here you see that these idols (moon, stars, planets and other idols needed for the preservation of the world) are gods, for they are indestructible!

A philosopher once asked Raban Gamaliel: Your law says [Deut. iv. 24]: "For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, yea, a watchful God"; why is it that he is so watchful with regard to the worshipper and not to the idol?

Said Raban Gamaliel: I will answer your question by a metaphor: Suppose a king's son names his dog with the father's name and swears, whenever he does, by the life of this dog; the father, once informed about this, will he get angry at his son or at the dog?

(Talmud, Avoda Zara)
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Keltoi
03-14-2007, 03:49 AM
Anything can become an idol. Some would say money itself has become a false idol. God doesn't strike down every idol that is propped up by man. It is the duty of man to turn away from these idols and accept the One true God.
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paarsurrey
03-14-2007, 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by rebelishaulman
Intersting points to make against the idolators who will commonly ask, "why does your G-d not destroy these "idols" as you call our gods.")
The Jewish sages were asked by the idolator philosophers at Rome: If G-d is displeased with idol-worship, why does he not destroy the idols?
Hi
God does not destroy everything he does no like, though none could stop him from doing it if he liked to. He has created this world under a scheme of creation, which is not difficult to understand from the scriptures, Quran says it very clearly. He does not punish anybody in this world just for not believing in him, he only punishes those who with mischief harm others and thus infringe on their rights in matters of belief and religions, as that would be against the scheme of creations of things, in the next world he would hold them responsible and punish in such matters.
1. Angels- have been created, and they do whatever (good) is assigned to them by GodAllahYHWH. They stimulate man for doing good works.
2. Devil- devil could only do bad things; it has been created for this purpose. Devil would incite humans for doing bad things only.
3. Man- has bee endowed with both doing bad or good works that is a test of him, under the scheme of creation, so just by not believing he is not punished in this world, for matters of religion and faith he would be held accountable in the day of Judgment or the next world.
So this world is for examination of the man. Man has been given appropriate insight and wisdom to distinguish right from the wrong and act as per his choice. God won’t destroy idols; men may destroy them physically or mentally by not believing in it. Islam even does not permit a Muslim to rebuke an idol, sacred to non-believers, as in turn they could rebuke our God. Islam prohibits doing this.
Thanks
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aamirsaab
03-14-2007, 11:14 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Anything can become an idol. Some would say money itself has become a false idol. God doesn't strike down every idol that is propped up by man. It is the duty of man to turn away from these idols and accept the One true God.
That's exactly how I see it too.
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Malaikah
03-14-2007, 11:24 AM
On a side note, God will throw all idols into hell fire on the day of judgement and will tell their worshippers to go after them. If that isn't destruction, I don't know what is.
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arabiyyah
03-15-2007, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
On a side note, God will throw all idols into hell fire on the day of judgement and will tell their worshippers to go after them. If that isn't destruction, I don't know what is.
So Jesus will be thrown into hell fire?!????:?
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- Qatada -
03-15-2007, 08:43 PM
The cross will instead sister ^


:salamext:
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Zulkiflim
03-17-2007, 01:30 PM
Salaam,

I remeber a saying..

And the idolater will cry out to their idols on the last day but they cant be helped by man made things.

Or somethign like that.

idols are man made,man thought shaped and created them.

Allah has always sent messenger to guide people of every race,,
But the races will in time be deviant and peform folly.

I read once that in the time pre jahiliyah,the people worshipped Allah alone and worship at the Kaabah,but in time,they lost the teaching to pray AT the Kaabah and not TO the Kaabah.

From there they thought that the Kaabah was holy and thus its stones and pebbles and sand.
So when they strayed far away from the Kaabah they tool stones form it,,and in generation later shaped these stone into idols.
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Zulkiflim
03-17-2007, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by arabiyyah
So Jesus will be thrown into hell fire?!????:?
Salaam,

sister,Propeht Isa as is not an Idol....he is human being..
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Hemoo
03-17-2007, 08:31 PM
prophet jesus him self never told his followers to worship him but he told them to obey their creator and their lord

in the quran Allah says in AL-MAEDA chapter (here are three translations)


005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?
SHAKIR: And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
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zoro
03-18-2007, 09:01 AM
The question posed contains many premisses, such as:

1. That mere humans could fathom the thoughts of an omniscient, omnipotent being,

2. That an omniscient being would think about the idols of mere humans, since (by definition) an omniscient being would already know everything,

3. That an omnipotent being would want to do anything (let alone destroy the idols of mere humans), since the concept of ‘wanting’ (though common for mere humans) implies some unfulfilled desire and is therefore inconsistent with the concept of omnipotence,

4. Than an omniscient, omnipotent being would be interested in mere humans, and

5. That an omniscient, omnipotent being exists.

Therefore, for at least this mere human, it would seem appropriate if contributors to this thread would first attempt to justify the question’s premisses before suggesting answers.
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Malaikah
03-18-2007, 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by arabiyyah
So Jesus will be thrown into hell fire?!????:?
:sl:

lol that is exactly what I first thought when I heard about this! As bro Fi said, the cross gets thrown into hell, not Jesus.
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Trumble
03-18-2007, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by zoro
The question posed contains many premises
It includes a few implied assumptions, yes, but they are reasonable in the context.

1. That mere humans could fathom the thoughts of an omniscient, omnipotent being
is pretty much unanswerable.

2. That an omniscient being would think about the idols of mere humans, since (by definition) an omniscient being would already know everything
I'm not sure why knowing about something would prevent thinking about it. Indeed, I would have thought it was a prerequisite for thinking about it.


3. That an omnipotent being would want to do anything (let alone destroy the idols of mere humans), since the concept of ‘wanting’ (though common for mere humans) implies some unfulfilled desire and is therefore inconsistent with the concept of omnipotence
A classic philosophical point, but there are equally well known (if unsatisfactory) counters. I think it's reasonable to discuss the original question without resorting to a full length discussion of that particular argument.


4. Than an omniscient, omnipotent being would be interested in mere humans, and

5. That an omniscient, omnipotent being exists.
Those will always be assumed by muslim, Christian and Jewish posters. This is, after all, an Islamic forum not a philosophy of religion forum.
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Woodrow
03-18-2007, 09:44 AM
Those will always be assumed by Muslim, Christian and Jewish posters. This is, after all, an Islamic forum not a philosophy of religion forum.
Quite true and for that reason many of us have Islamic concepts. We do appreciate the input and honest thoughts from our non-Muslim members and hopefully with the goal of peaceful tolerance towards each other we can all learn to debate our differences with dignity and mutual respect.
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zoro
03-18-2007, 10:56 AM
Trumble: Your point

2. That an omniscient being would think about the idols of mere humans, since (by definition) an omniscient being would already know everything
I'm not sure why knowing about something would prevent thinking about it. Indeed, I would have thought it was a prerequisite for thinking about it.
is well made. I was thinking about (but expressed poorly) Aristotle’s idea (in his Metaphysics, Book XII, Part 7) that led him to conclude that an omniscient being would have only most perfect thoughts about most perfect beings – not that I agree with Aristotle on this point, but I think that it reveals a premiss implicit in the question posed.
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AvarAllahNoor
03-18-2007, 11:46 AM
Silly question...

It's like saying ''Why does God not end poverty?'' - We cannot understand Gods ways, or why he does what he does. He is Unfathmable. End Off.
:D
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