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GreatLoveJesus
03-14-2007, 01:11 PM
Salam and hello,

Where are the Christians today with respect to the supposed saying of Jesus (Matthew 5):

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


If such is the case why do we have later in the Bible (Galatians 2)?

[I]16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.[/I]
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Keltoi
03-14-2007, 06:40 PM
This has already been discussed fairly heavily in another thread.
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GreatLoveJesus
03-15-2007, 03:31 AM
^

Still,the issue remians as presented in the contrast between the book of Matthew and Galatians 2 (and many other places as well...)
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don532
03-15-2007, 01:13 PM
Greetings. If I may offer an observation. It seems you are reading the verses from Matthew as meaning the law is what we live by, and the verses in Galatians as contradicting that.

Read the end of verses Matthew 5:17 and 18 carefully. (17)Jesus came to fulfill the law. (18) til heaven and earth shall pass......til all be fulfilled.

Jesus' perfect sacrifice fulfilled the law. There is no more need to offer sacrifices. Good human works, even those lives lived within the law, are not perfect. We are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus paid the price for us.

I have seen similar posts and it seems this idea is seen as bizarre to some here. We believe God so loved the world that he gave his Son (the same Word that was in the beginning) to pay the price for us. That is one of the reasons we want to serve Him and do good works. There is hope and happiness in these beliefs. We know no matter what good works we do, we cannot make ourselves worthy of Heaven on our own.

Peace.
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Grace Seeker
03-16-2007, 01:10 AM
In addition, those that God chose to be in covenant with him through the law are indeed still in covenant with God through the old covenant made at Mount Sinai, these are the Jews. So, Jesus did not do away with it.

BUT, and it is a very important BUT, Jesus also established a new covenant. Whereas the old covenant was made with just one group of people, the descendants of Abraham, this new covenant would be for all people. The new covenant was different than the old covenant. The old covenant was one of be good and you will be my people and I will be your God -- a kindergarten version of the old covenant. The new covenant was more like, even though you are imperfect, trust me, I will still accept you. About the only commonality between the two is something that all three religions (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) celebrate -- the offering one's first born as a sign of faithfulness. In Judaism Abraham offers the son of the promise, Isacc. In Islam Abraham offers his firstborn, Ishmael. In Christianity the Father offers the Son who is both his firstborn and the son of the promise. Thus Judaism knows that Abraham is faithful and that faithfulness is credited to him as righteousness. Islam learns that Abraham is submissive and tries to be likewise. Christianity learns that God is faithful and yearns to trust in a God like that. That which we trust in is not our working or keeping of the law -- that would be the old covenant for the Jews. We learn to trust in God's works of love and grace toward us. We learn that we can trust in a God who is faithful and just and will cleanse us of our sins. (Btw, God will do that for anyone who allows him to.)
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Hemoo
03-17-2007, 08:37 PM
well i think that we muslims will waste our times speaking to non muslims and they are really stubborn they wont be convinced easily
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don532
03-17-2007, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by hemoo
well i think that we muslims will waste our times speaking to non muslims and they are really stubborn they wont be convinced easily
True we may never accept each others religions. That doesn't mean we shouldn't speak.

Peace.
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ACC
03-17-2007, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by hemoo
well i think that we muslims will waste our times speaking to non muslims and they are really stubborn they wont be convinced easily
Or muslims are stubborn. The argument goes both ways. It is a bit arrogant to think not.
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snakelegs
03-17-2007, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by hemoo
well i think that we muslims will waste our times speaking to non muslims and they are really stubborn they wont be convinced easily
aha! you muslims don't get off that easy! there's a catch:
you have to give the kufr dawah - so you have to speak to the little devils!!! ;D
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ManchesterFolk
03-18-2007, 01:13 AM
In addition, those that God chose to be in covenant with him through the law are indeed still in covenant with God through the old covenant made at Mount Sinai, these are the Jews. So, Jesus did not do away with it.
So if Jews are still obligated by that covanent why does Christianity activly try to convert Jews when they still have to follow the old one?
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NoName55
03-18-2007, 11:14 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
aha! ....................
you have to give the kufr dawah - so you have to speak to the little devils!!! ;D
No, I don't!

My first duty (before dawah) is to stay *Alive* dawah is not going up to you and saying oi kafar become Muslim!
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Muhammad
03-18-2007, 04:59 PM
:sl: and Greetings,

Please keep the thread on-topic. If there is a similar thread, please point it out so that they can be merged.
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snakelegs
03-18-2007, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
No, I don't!

My first duty (before dawah) is to stay *Alive* dawah is not going up to you and saying oi kafar become Muslim!
i know, but i just couldn't resist!
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NoName55
03-18-2007, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
:sl: and Greetings,

Please keep the thread on-topic. If there is a similar thread, please point it out so that they can be merged.
:wasalamex

I think Br. keltoi may have been referring to http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...mandments.html

Ma'aslaama
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Keltoi
03-18-2007, 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
:wasalamex

I think Br. keltoi may have been referring to http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...mandments.html

Ma'aslaama
That was the one, thanks.
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Grace Seeker
03-22-2007, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
In addition, those that God chose to be in covenant with him through the law are indeed still in covenant with God through the old covenant made at Mount Sinai, these are the Jews. So, Jesus did not do away with it.
So if Jews are still obligated by that covanent why does Christianity activly try to convert Jews when they still have to follow the old one?
Christianity doesn't try to convert Jews, Christians do. That may seem semantics to some, but I assure you it isn't. Christianity is a faith regarding how people relate to God through Jesus. Jesus send Christians to share this message with the world. However, the job of converting falls not to Christians, but to the Holy Spirit. Thus Christians can and should share with Jews (along with all others) the good news of a relationship that is possible with God through Jesus, on whom came God's anointing. But if as individuals they reject it, that does not negate the promises of God with respect to them as members of the covenant he formerly made with them through Abraham and confirmed at Sinai.

The idea of obligation as you termed it is not a Christian concept, it is of other faiths. From the Christian perspective, Jews are not under compulsion to practice Judaism. They can have new life with God in Jesus and live in that new covenant instead of the old one. Or they can remain bound by the old covenant; the choice is theirs to make.

The old covenant it the one filled with a sense of obligations, the new covenant is filled with grace. The manner in which a person desires to connect with God is totally up to the individual, but if one chooses the way of obligation, then the standard is perfection. In the way of grace, we depend on not our perfection being credited to us, but our relationship to provide us an advocate with God, who out of mercy credits us with undeserved righteousness.
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