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mariam.
03-15-2007, 06:19 PM
The Holy Quran and the traditional sayings of prophet Mohummed are the two legs of the Religion of Islam , The Holy Quran contains scientific miracles that have been already confiremeds scientifically . These Holy Scientific verses were revealed more than 1400 years ago , at the time of prophet Mohummed there were many other different miracles to make people believe . Because Quran will be the last reveald Book till life ends , Gods has made it overflowing Book with miracles that suit every age and its kind of civilization . As we live now in the age of science , we find that there are a lot of scientific miracles in Quran in addition to the Hadiths (prophet's traditional sayings ) Here is a wonderful miracle :

Medically it is well known now that a fly carries some pathagens on some parts of its body as mentioned by the Prophet (before 1400 years. approx. when the humans knew very little of modern medicine.) Similarly Allah created organisms and other mechanisms which kill these pathagens e.g. penicillin Fungus kills pathogenic organisms like Staphalococci and others etc. Recently experiments have been done under supervision which indicate that a fly carries the disease (pathagens) plus the antidote for those organ-isms. Ordinarily when a fly touches a liquid food it infects the liquid with its pathogens, so it must be dipped in order to release also the antidote for those pathogens to act as a counter balance to the pathogens.


The creation of the head of the fly reflesct God's greatness

Prophet Mohummed says "If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote. "

The Prophet Muhammad - upon him and his House blessings and peace - alluded to both facts 1,400 years ago when he said, as narrated from Abu Hurayra and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri by al-Bukhari and in the Sunan.


The greatness of God's creation in the eyes of the fly

Only in modern times was it discovered that the common fly carried parasitic pathogens for many diseases including malaria, typhoid fever, cholera, and others. It was also discovered that the fly carried parasitic bacteriophagic fungi capable of fighting the germs of all these diseases.

The Prophet Muhammad - upon him and his House blessings and peace - alluded to both facts 1,400 years ago when he said, as narrated from Abu Hurayra and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri by al-Bukhari and in the Sunan:

If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote.



It is established that house flies are carriers of dangerous pathogens of animals and humans. Even the muscaphobic critics of this hadith are forced to admit that no one at the time of the Prophet, upon him peace, knew that flies carry such harmful organisms. Whence the observation that "under one of its wings there is venom"?

Second, from the perspective of logic, if the fly did not carry some sort of protection in the form of an antidote or immunity, it would perish from its own poisonous burden and there would be no fly left in the world.

Further, the transmission of what the fly carries in or on its body is not an automatic fact. For example, the microbe responsible for ulcers and other stomach ailments can live on houseflies, although it remains to be seen whether flies transmit the pathogen.

There has long been evidence of bacterial pathogen-suppressing micro-organisms living in houseflies. An article in Vol. 43 of the Rockefeller Foundation's Journal of Experimental Medicine (1927) p. 1037 stated:

The flies were given some of the cultured microbes for certain diseases. After some time the germs died and no trace was left of them while a germ-devouring substance formed in the flies - bacteriophages. If a saline solution were to be obtained from these flies it would contain bacteriophages able to suppress four kinds of disease-inducing germs and to benefit immunity against four other kinds.

Cited in `Abd Allah al-Qusami, Mushkilat al-Ahadith al-Nabawiyya wa-Bayanuha (p. 42).

More recently, a Colorado State University website on entomology states, "Gnotobiotic [=germ-free] insects (Greenberg et al, 1970) were used to provide evidence of the bacterial pathogen-suppressing ability of the microbiota of Musca domestica [houseflies] .... most relationships between insects and their microbiota remain undefined. Studies with gnotobiotic locusts suggest that the microbiota confers previously unexpected benefits for the insect host."

So then, flies are not only pathogenic carriers but also carry microbiota that can be beneficent. The fly microbiota were described as "longitudinal yeast cells living as parasites inside their bellies. These yeast cells, in order to perpetuate their life cycle, protrude through certain respiratory tubules of the fly. If the fly is dipped in a liquid, the cells burst into the fluid and the content of those cells is an antidote for the pathogens which the fly carries." Cf. Footnote in the Translation of the Meanings of Sahih al-Bukhari by Muhammad Muhsin Khan (7:372, Book 76 Medicine, Chapter 58, Hadith 5782).

These fly microbiota are bacteriophagic or "germ-eating". Bacteriophages are viruses of viruses. They attack viruses and bacteria. They can be selected and bred to kill specific organisms. The viruses infect a bacterium, replicate and fill the bacterial cell with new copies of the virus, and then break through the bacterium's cell wall, causing it to burst. The existence of similar bacteria-killing mechanisms in two bacteriophages suggests that antibiotics for human infections might be designed on the basis of these cell wall-destroying proteins. Science 292 (June 2001) p. 2326-2329.

Bacteriophagic medicine was available in the West before the forties but was discontinued when penicillin and other "miracle antibiotics" came out. Bacteriophages continued to flourish in Eastern Europe as an over-the-counter medicine. The "O1-phage" has been used for diagnosis of all Salmonella types while the prophylaxis of Shigella dysentery was conducted with the help of phages. Annales Immunologiae Hungaricae No. 9 (1966) in German.

"Phage therapy" is now making a comeback in the West:

First named in 1917 by researcher Felix d'Herelle at France 's Pasteur Institute, bacteriophages (or just phages for short) are viruses that prey upon bacteria. They have a simple structure - a DNA-filled head attached by a shaft to spidery "legs" that are used to grip onto the surface of a bacterium. Once a phage latches onto a bacterium, it injects its payload of genetic material into the bacterium's innards. The bacterium then begins to rapidly produce "daughter" copies of the phage -- until the bacterium becomes too full and ruptures, sending hundreds of new phage particles into the open world.

Doctors used phages as medical treatment for illnesses ranging from cholera to typhoid fevers. In some cases, a liquid containing the phage was poured into an open wound. In others, they were given orally, via aerosol, or injected. In some cases, the treatments worked well - in others, they did not. When antibiotics came into the mainstream, phage therapy largely faded in the west.

However, researchers in eastern Europe, including the former Soviet Union , continued their studies of the potential healing properties of phages. And now that strains of bacteria resistant to standard antibiotics are on the rise, the idea of phage therapy has been getting more attention in the worldwide medical community. Several biotechnology companies have been formed in the U.S. to develop bacteriophage-based treatments - many of them drawing on the expertise of researchers from eastern Europe."

Research on the medical application of bacteriophages is now considered to be in its most promising stage. A University of Pittsburgh researcher said in June 2001, "Given the sheer number and variety of bacteriophages lurking on the planet, the viruses may represent a sizable untapped reservoir of new therapeutics." Science 292 (June 2001) p. 2326-2329.

Possibilities for use of bacteriophages in disease control is discussed in the article "Smaller Fleas... Ad infinitum: Therapeutic Bacteriophage Redux" in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America [PNAS] Vol. 93 No. 8 (April 16, 1996), 3167-8.

The fact that the fly carried pathophagic or germ-eating agents was known to the ancients, who noticed that wasp and scorpion stings are remedied by rubbing the sore spot with a decapitated fly as mentioned in al-Antaki's Tadhkira (1:140), al-`Ayni's citation of Abu Muhammad Ibn al-Baytar al-Maliqi's (d. 646) al-Jami` li-Mufradat al-Adwiya wal-Aghdhiya in `Umdat al-Qari (7:304), and al-Sha`rani's Mukhtasar al-Suwaydi fil-Tibb (p. 98).

Avicenna preferred the use of a live chicken slit in two and applied to the wound cf. Ibn al-Azraq, Tas-hîl al- Manafi` (1306 ed. p. 171=1315 ed. p. 147). A similar use is current even today for camel urine according to a University of Calgary website.

In the two world wars the wounds of soldiers exposed to flies were observed to heal and scar faster than the wounds of unexposed soldiers. Even today, fly larvae, or maggots, are used medicinally to clean up festering wounds. They only eat dead tissue and leave healthy tissue alone.

Is the fly ritually filthy (najis)? No. The Jurists concur that the fly is pure (al-dhubab tahir) and does not defile a liquid even if its quantity is small and even if it dies in it except, according to al-Shafi`i, if one of the aspects of the liquid is affected (smell, color, taste) cf. al-Baghawi, Sharh al-Sunna (11:260-261) and al-Qastallani, Irshad al-Sari (5:304-305).

The Prophetic Sunna is an endless manual of healthy living and practical husbandry for people of all walks of life, especially the poor. The Prophet, upon him peace, at all times directed his Umma to avert waste and penury even in unsanitary conditions. Just as the hadith on camel milk and urine reveals knowledge of dietetics and natural medicine, so does the hadith of the fly reveal knowledge of preventive medicine and immunology. In this respect the command in these hadiths, as in many others, denotes an advisory Sunna of permissibility, not a literal obligation. "The command [of immersing the fly] denotes counsel (al-amru lil-irshad) so as to counter disease with cure." Al-Qastallani, Irshad al-Sari (5:304).

Despite the abundance of supporting evidence for the authenticity of these medicinal narrations (camel and fly) on the one hand and for their scientific viability on the other, certain voices continue to reject them on both counts. Principle skepticism of authentically transmitted narrations that pertain to facts demonstrated by ancient and modern science, or whose scientific worth is just now coming into view, is the wont of stagnant minds and diseased hearts for which there is no cure save the mercy of our Lord.

Now researchers are developing a new antibiotic made of the antidode living on the fly's surface

The latest research calls for a new antibody from the fly antidote

here is a new research titled "The new buzz on antibiotics" that was done only a weak ago ...read this study:
The surface of flies is the last place you would expect to find antibiotics, yet that is exactly where a team of Australian researchers is concentrating their efforts Working on the theory that flies must have remarkable antimicrobial defences to survive rotting dung, meat and fruit, the team at the Department of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, set out to identify those antibacterial properties manifesting at different stages of a fly’s development.

"Our research is a small part of a global research effort for new antibiotics, but we are looking where we believe no-one has looked before,” said Ms Joanne Clarke, who presented the group’s findings at the Australian Society for Microbiology Conference in Melbourne this week. The project is part of her PhD thesis.
The scientists tested four different species of fly: a house fly, a sheep blowfly, a vinegar fruit fly and the control, a Queensland fruit fly which lays its eggs in fresh fruit. These larvae do not need as much antibacterial compound because they do not come into contact with as much bacteria.


Flies go through the life stages of larvae and pupae before becoming adults. In the pupae stage, the fly is encased in a protective casing and does not feed. "We predicted they would not produce many antibiotics," said Ms Clarke.

They did not. However the larvae all showed antibacterial properties (except that of the Queensland fruit fly control).

As did all the adult fly species, including the Queensland fruit fly (which at this point requires antibacterial protection because it has contact with other flies and is mobile).

Such properties were present on the fly surface in all four species, although antibacterial properties occur in the gut as well. "You find activity in both places," said Ms Clarke.

"The reason we concentrated on the surface is because it is a simpler extraction.”

The antibiotic material is extracted by drowning the flies in ethanol, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.
When this was placed in a solution with various bacteria including E.coli, Golden Staph, Candida (a yeast) and a common hospital pathogen, antibiotic action was observed every time.

"We are now trying to identify the specific antibacterial compounds," said Ms Clarke. Ultimately these will be chemically synthesised.

Because the compounds are not from bacteria, any genes conferring resistance to them may not be as easily transferred into pathogens. It is hoped this new form of antibiotics will have a longer effective therapeutic life.
Danny Kingsley - ABC Science Online
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syilla
03-19-2007, 03:11 AM
MashaAllah...

thank you for sharing.

but i wouldn't drink the water...even after dipping the fly again inside the water.
Reply

north_malaysian
03-19-2007, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
MashaAllah...

thank you for sharing.

but i wouldn't drink the water...even after dipping the fly again inside the water.
yeah... me too... flies are annoying...
Reply

aadil77
03-19-2007, 07:22 PM
subhanallah, at the time of the prophet throwing away water was a much bigger loss than it is now
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Umar001
03-19-2007, 07:52 PM
The Best Guidance Is The Guidance of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

If it was best to throw the water away the Prophet, peace be upon him, would have said.
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- Qatada -
03-30-2007, 02:21 PM
:salamext:


Maasha Allaah that's kool! :) totally agree with bro Habeshi ^
Reply

Hemoo
03-31-2007, 05:56 AM
jazaky Allah khayran sister mariam for the article

and i ask you for a scientific reference to what you wrote ...it will be so helpfull to me
Reply

NoName55
03-31-2007, 06:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by hemoo
jazaky Allah khayran sister mariam for the article

and i ask you for a scientific reference to what you wrote ...it will be so helpfull to me
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s689400.htm
article from:
http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=133
Reply

ranma1/2
04-10-2007, 03:26 AM
so how is venom the same as disease?

and how is a antidote the same as fungus?

and arent these diesease covering the flies and not just arent these disease on more than just one wing? the same with the fungi?
Reply

NoName55
04-10-2007, 03:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
so how is venom the same as disease?

and how is a antidote the same as fungus?
Read this article from begining to end

http://www.islamicboard.com/685483-post1.html
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s689400.htm
http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=133
and arent these diesease covering the flies and not just arent these disease on more than just one wing? the same with the fungi?
then ask questions clearly without mixing them up
__________________
Reply

Philosopher
04-10-2007, 04:00 AM
This is a big slap to atheism.
Reply

ranma1/2
04-10-2007, 05:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Philosopher
This is a big slap to atheism.
huh?
Reply

ranma1/2
04-10-2007, 05:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
Read this artical from begining to end
http://www.islamicboard.com/685483-post1.html
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s689400.htm
http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=133

then ask questions clearly without mixing them up
__________________
i read the article you posted and it seems to me that you are reading into the verse things that are not there in order to give it the appearance that there is a prediction.

It is much more likely that people new or believed that flies could make them sick. Via what some may consider poison or disease.
It is clear that flies do not hold disease on one wing and the antidote to those disease on the other.

So this prediction is refuted.
Reply

NoName55
04-10-2007, 06:12 AM
you could do with another read,methinks!

The new buzz on antibiotics


Tuesday, 1 October 2002



Ugly but useful: The sheep blowfly is one of the fly species that might provide humans with new antibiotics. (Pic: BioTrack.)
The surface of flies is the last place you would expect to find antibiotics, yet that is exactly where a team of Australian researchers is concentrating their efforts.

Working on the theory that flies must have remarkable antimicrobial defences to survive rotting dung, meat and fruit, the team at the Department of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, set out to identify those antibacterial properties manifesting at different stages of a fly’s development.

"Our research is a small part of a global research effort for new antibiotics, but we are looking where we believe no-one has looked before,” said Ms Joanne Clarke, who presented the group’s findings at the Australian Society for Microbiology Conference in Melbourne this week. The project is part of her PhD thesis.

The scientists tested four different species of fly: a house fly, a sheep blowfly, a vinegar fruit fly and the control, a Queensland fruit fly which lays its eggs in fresh fruit. These larvae do not need as much antibacterial compound because they do not come into contact with as much bacteria.

Flies go through the life stages of larvae and pupae before becoming adults. In the pupae stage, the fly is encased in a protective casing and does not feed. "We predicted they would not produce many antibiotics," said Ms Clarke.

They did not. However the larvae all showed antibacterial properties (except that of the Queensland fruit fly control).

As did all the adult fly species, including the Queensland fruit fly (which at this point requires antibacterial protection because it has contact with other flies and is mobile).

Such properties were present on the fly surface in all four species, although antibacterial properties occur in the gut as well. "You find activity in both places," said Ms Clarke.

"The reason we concentrated on the surface is because it is a simpler extraction.”

The antibiotic material is extracted by drowning the flies in ethanol, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.

When this was placed in a solution with various bacteria including E.coli, Golden Staph, Candida (a yeast) and a common hospital pathogen, antibiotic action was observed every time.

"We are now trying to identify the specific antibacterial compounds," said Ms Clarke. Ultimately these will be chemically synthesised.

Because the compounds are not from bacteria, any genes conferring resistance to them may not be as easily transferred into pathogens. It is hoped this new form of antibiotics will have a longer effective therapeutic life.

Danny Kingsley - ABC Science Online
Reply

ranma1/2
04-10-2007, 06:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
you could do with another read,methinks!

The new buzz on antibiotics


...
Danny Kingsley - ABC Science Online
I am not denying that with flies we can make antibiotics.
I am saying that you are reading much more into the passage than is actuallly there.

It does not say that you can culture the bacteria and other things on flies and make an antidote. It says just dip the flies in the food and bamb any disease or venom it lay there is now cured.

you are reading into it to much i thinks....
Reply

Philosopher
04-10-2007, 06:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
I am not denying that with flies we can make antibiotics.
I am saying that you are reading much more into the passage than is actuallly there.

It does not say that you can culture the bacteria and other things on flies and make an antidote. It says just dip the flies in the food and bamb any disease or venom it lay there is now cured.

you are reading into it to much i thinks....
You have failed to provide a concrete objection.
Reply

ranma1/2
04-10-2007, 06:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Philosopher
You have failed to provide a concrete objection.
Yes I have.
I have shown that you have read things into the passages that are not there.
Reply

Philosopher
04-10-2007, 06:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Yes I have.
I have shown that you have read things into the passages that are not there.
All you have done is waste space with your incessant diatribe.
Reply

NoName55
04-10-2007, 06:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
I am not denying that with flies we can make antibiotics.
I am saying that you are reading much more into the passage than is actuallly there.

It does not say that you can culture the bacteria and other things on flies and make an antidote. It says just dip the flies in the food and bamb any disease or venom it lay there is now cured.

you are reading into it to much i thinks....
Are you some kinda dumb schmuck or is it a hobby to twist statements and put words into people's speech?

There will be no discussion until you read the thread again then post a question minus the lies
Reply

ranma1/2
04-10-2007, 06:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
Are you some kinda dumb schmuck or is it a hobby to twist statements and put words into people's speech?

There will be no discussion until you read the thread again then post a question minus the lies
please be polite. I am not twisting statements, rather i am pointing out the twisting of statements.

Now please be civil. I have not been rude to you and i expect the same.
Reply

Philosopher
04-10-2007, 06:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
please be polite. I am not twisting statements, rather i am pointing out the twisting of statements.

Now please be civil. I have not been rude to you and i expect the same.
You havent pointed anything noteworthy. You are indeed twisting the facts stated and have posted nothing but intellectually unethical and deceptive waffles.
Reply

ranma1/2
04-10-2007, 06:48 AM
Prophet Mohummed says "If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote. "


now how am i reading or twisting these words?

The prophet is said to have said that if a fly falls into a food or drink you should immerse it completely.

and he then says that under onewing is venom and one the antidote.

Is this true? No it is not.
Scientific prediction? No.

If you care to explain how I am twisting the words please do. But I am not lying as you have accused me of doing. I am just pointing out the flaws in your arguments and logic.
Reply

Philosopher
04-10-2007, 06:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Prophet Mohummed says "If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote. "


now how am i reading or twisting these words?

The prophet is said to have said that if a fly falls into a food or drink you should immerse it completely.

and he then says that under onewing is venom and one the antidote.

Is this true? No it is not.
Scientific prediction? No.

If you care to explain how I am twisting the words please do. But I am not lying as you have accused me of doing. I am just pointing out the flaws in your arguments and logic.
I''ll elucidate the concept later, i need to go to sleep now!

Good Night!
Reply

lyesh
04-10-2007, 07:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Prophet Mohummed says "If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote. "


now how am i reading or twisting these words?

The prophet is said to have said that if a fly falls into a food or drink you should immerse it completely.

and he then says that under onewing is venom and one the antidote.

Is this true? No it is not.
Scientific prediction? No.

If you care to explain how I am twisting the words please do. But I am not lying as you have accused me of doing. I am just pointing out the flaws in your arguments and logic.
Recently experiments have been done under supervision which indicate that a fly carries the disease (pathagens) plus the antidote for those organ-isms. Ordinarily when a fly touches a liquid food it infects the liquid with its pathogens, so it must be dipped in order to release also the antidote for those pathogens to act as a counter balance to the pathogens.

its been proven true by science now... that's what this whole thread is about..:rollseyes
Reply

ranma1/2
04-10-2007, 07:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lyesh
Recently experiments have been done under supervision which indicate that a fly carries the disease (pathagens) plus the antidote for those organ-isms. Ordinarily when a fly touches a liquid food it infects the liquid with its pathogens, so it must be dipped in order to release also the antidote for those pathogens to act as a counter balance to the pathogens.

its been proven true by science now... that's what this whole thread is about..:rollseyes
Thankyou for making a good comment. "and not going off on me"
Many creatures carry pathogens and "antidotes"

Now one of my problems with the article isthat the verse says specifically on one wing this and the other that. Which is not true.

The verse would also lead someone to believe that a fly could poison you and in turn cure you. This also isnt true.

Now lets just take the fly idea and put it to more realistic means.

Lets say if you were living back in the days of Muhammad "cool experience if you ask me" and you had many flies infecting your food would his advices work.

Lets say thatthe flies have actually contanimated your food with some sort fo pathogen would taking the flies and dunking them in the food then make the food safe to drink or eat? No it wouldnt.
Reply

جوري
04-10-2007, 07:21 AM
The same way using a Live attenuated vaccine from the disease-causing organism -- can help mount an immune response in the host receiving it... and yet in contrast in an immuno-compromised person can actually again turn virulent... Unless you have studied this area in depth I suggest you not make any random assumptions and pass them as facts...
Reply

lyesh
04-10-2007, 07:48 AM
Thankyou for making a good comment. "and not going off on me"
Many creatures carry pathogens and "antidotes"

Now one of my problems with the article is that the verse says specifically on one wing this and the other that. Which is not true.
Explain why it's not true please... (btw, its not a verse.. it's a hadith)

The verse would also lead someone to believe that a fly could poison you and in turn cure you. This also isnt true.
why?... :)

Now lets just take the fly idea and put it to more realistic means.

Lets say if you were living back in the days of Muhammad "cool experience if you ask me" and you had many flies infecting your food would his advices work.

Lets say thatthe flies have actually contanimated your food with some sort fo pathogen would taking the flies and dunking them in the food then make the food safe to drink or eat? No it wouldnt.
yes ofcourse this idea would work... like you already know, we use bacteria for a lot of medicines in the world today. now... we all tell our kids to stay away from it.. lol.. but still some of them are the best cures for our health problems! some bacteria in the world are so useful for our body!

yea so the flies contaminated the food one day.. and we dunked the fly back to food and would it be safe to drink or eat? like u just said no it wouldnt.. i'll just say "YES! IT WOULD!" :)
Reply

Trumble
04-10-2007, 07:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Philosopher
You havent pointed anything noteworthy. You are indeed twisting the facts stated and have posted nothing but intellectually unethical and deceptive waffles.
Without twisting anything he has merely pointed out that, as is the usual with such 'miracles', far more is being read into a passage than is actually there. Not to mention that what doesn't happen to fit it is totally ignored. Were this advice

"If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote."
followed literally, the consequence would be increased typhoid and cholera; more disease not less of it. The interesting new research doesn't change that.

format_quote Originally Posted by lyesh
Ordinarily when a fly touches a liquid food it infects the liquid with its pathogens, so it must be dipped in order to release also the antidote for those pathogens to act as a counter balance to the pathogens.

its been proven true by science now...
No, it has not. Please re-read the articles, if only for the sake of your kids. Nobody, anywhere, is saying anything today about dipping flies. The antibiotics are extracted from flies using scientific processes; there is no benefit from just dunking the fly which is just as much a health hazard as it has always been.

Or in other words, while using scientific techniques to extract antibiotics from flies may be smart, dunking them in your food or drink is not. The saying is therefore likely to be either a metaphor, or an old-wives tale from the Prophet's time, not a "miracle".

The fly is now trumpeted but nobody mentions the numerous "medical" references in hadith that are absurd, such as claiming no disease is contagious, that drinking camel urine for medicinal purposes is a good idea or that black cumin seeds can cure anything. It is that selectivity which is "intellectually unethical and deceptive"... or at least it would be if it were a purely scientific matter. It isn't, of course, it's a faith-based matter with a dollop of science that with insufficient care can be confused with the real thing. Seeking agreement is therefore pretty futile, those who 'believe' will see this as a 'proof' just like those equally tenuous 'proofs' related to embryos, the shape of the earth etc, etc, while anybody else will see it as an interesting coincidence at most.
Reply

ranma1/2
04-11-2007, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Without twisting anything he has merely pointed out that, as is the usual with such 'miracles', far more is being read into a passage than is actually there. Not to mention that what doesn't happen to fit it is totally ignored. Were this advice



followed literally, the consequence would be increased typhoid and cholera; more disease not less of it. The interesting new research doesn't change that.



No, it has not. Please re-read the articles, if only for the sake of your kids. Nobody, anywhere, is saying anything today about dipping flies. The antibiotics are extracted from flies using scientific processes; there is no benefit from just dunking the fly which is just as much a health hazard as it has always been.

Or in other words, while using scientific techniques to extract antibiotics from flies may be smart, dunking them in your food or drink is not. The saying is therefore likely to be either a metaphor, or an old-wives tale from the Prophet's time, not a "miracle".

The fly is now trumpeted but nobody mentions the numerous "medical" references in hadith that are absurd, such as claiming no disease is contagious, that drinking camel urine for medicinal purposes is a good idea or that black cumin seeds can cure anything. It is that selectivity which is "intellectually unethical and deceptive"... or at least it would be if it were a purely scientific matter. It isn't, of course, it's a faith-based matter with a dollop of science that with insufficient care can be confused with the real thing. Seeking agreement is therefore pretty futile, those who 'believe' will see this as a 'proof' just like those equally tenuous 'proofs' related to embryos, the shape of the earth etc, etc, while anybody else will see it as an interesting coincidence at most.
Thank you
Reply

Malaikah
04-11-2007, 03:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
such as claiming no disease is contagious,
Rubbish. That hadith is referring to that fact that no matter how contagious a disease is, if Allah does not wish for a person to catch it, he/she won't.

There are many other hadiths that refer to contagious diseases, such as the prophet forbidding people to leave a city that has a disease spreading through it to prevent it from reaching other places, and also forbidding people from entering places where their is a contagious disease spreading amongst the people.
Reply

lyesh
04-11-2007, 04:09 AM
Seeking agreement is therefore pretty futile, those who 'believe' will see this as a 'proof' just like those equally tenuous 'proofs' related to embryos, the shape of the earth etc, etc, while anybody else will see it as an interesting coincidence at most.
coincidence?? hmmmm... I wonder if you were there at the times of the prophet, where there were no scientific equipments to prove these things, would you beleive a man who says these things..? a man who said what was happening inside a woman's womb when she is pregnant, and it couldnt be visible to anybody, whats going on there at that time! a man who told u about the shape of the earth is round, but you still see it as a flat ground! and you are saying all these things turn out to be a coincidence for those who dont believe after it is discovered true by science? lol... face the reality! how could a man that long ago discover these things only by himself?
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ranma1/2
04-11-2007, 04:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lyesh
coincidence?? hmmmm... I wonder if you were there at the times of the prophet, where there were no scientific equipments to prove these things, would you beleive a man who says these things..? a man who said what was happening inside a woman's womb when she is pregnant, and it couldnt be visible to anybody, whats going on there at that time! a man who told u about the shape of the earth is round, but you still see it as a flat ground! and you are saying all these things turn out to be a coincidence for those who dont believe after it is discovered true by science? lol... face the reality! how could a man that long ago discover these things only by himself?
as stated before, he did not predict anything new or unknown at the time.
As shown in this thread the supposed predictions are nothing more than the taking of something and pulling it way out of context to fit something obscure.
Reply

جوري
04-11-2007, 04:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
as stated before, he did not predict anything new or unknown at the time.
As shown in this thread the supposed predictions are nothing more than the taking of something and pulling it way out of context to fit something obscure.
That is actually written as if by someone who hasn't even read the cliff notes.. There is plenty in the Quran that not only wasn't known at the prophet time but wasn't even mentioned in scriptures preceeding the Quran for those who wish to rumor that he copied his scriptures from else where-- cities like Erum and what is modern day petra (thamud) to the female sex of the worker bees to the cave of seven sleeper in Ephesus Turkey to creation of man to high altitude hypoxia to geology....That plus setting a complete system that covered politics, economics, social structure and beliefs...quite remarkable I'd say to someone who was illiterate... So pls I urge you to spend some time studying before making these sweeping false generalizations.
I think if you want to convince someone of your argument-- the least you can do is be well read in the area you are about to argue.
Peace!
Reply

ranma1/2
04-11-2007, 06:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
That is actually written as if by someone who hasn't even read the cliff notes.. There is plenty in the Quran that not only wasn't known at the prophet time but wasn't even mentioned in scriptures preceeding the Quran for those who wish to rumor that he copied his scriptures from else where-- cities like Erum and what is modern day petra (thamud) to the female sex of the worker bees to the cave of seven sleeper in Ephesus Turkey to creation of man to high altitude hypoxia to geology....That plus setting a complete system that covered politics, economics, social structure and beliefs...quite remarkable I'd say to someone who was illiterate... So pls I urge you to spend some time studying before making these sweeping false generalizations.
I think if you want to convince someone of your argument-- the least you can do is be well read in the area you are about to argue.
Peace!

Is there anything in the quran that has created new knowledge?
Or is it all after the fact?
Reply

Trumble
04-11-2007, 06:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lyesh
coincidence?? hmmmm... I wonder if you were there at the times of the prophet, where there were no scientific equipments to prove these things, would you beleive a man who says these things..? a man who said what was happening inside a woman's womb when she is pregnant, and it couldnt be visible to anybody, whats going on there at that time! a man who told u about the shape of the earth is round, but you still see it as a flat ground! and you are saying all these things turn out to be a coincidence for those who dont believe after it is discovered true by science? lol... face the reality! how could a man that long ago discover these things only by himself?
The description of what happens inside the womb is innaccurate, and can be traced from (or at least, possibly, from a common source as) previous writings of Galen (De Semine, around 150 AD).

Contrary to popular belief, it was also well known at the time that the earth was round and not flat, that having been discovered by the Greeks hundreds of years previously. The 'flat earth' belonged in dark/age mediaeval Europe.

And so on, and so on. But this has all been discussed at great length in numerous threads before. The 'reality' is that people believe what they want to believe; if enough people believe these 'proofs' or 'miracles' are just that, then that's what they become. As I said that's why there will never be agreement on this topic.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-11-2007, 11:02 AM
:salamext:


Kinda ironic ^ since the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) never left Makkah while the verses regarding the earth and womb were being revealed, i wonder how the knowledge of the Greeks reached there when the arabs themselves were an illiterate nation.
Reply

NoName55
04-11-2007, 03:41 PM
:sl:
Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and Chronicles 16:30 state that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved."

Psalm 104:5 says, "[the LORD] set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."

Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "the sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises."

Galileo defended heliocentrism, and claimed it was not contrary to those Scripture passages. He took Augustine's position on Scripture: not to take every passage literally, particularly when the scripture in question is a book of poetry and songs, not a book of instructions or history. The writers of the Scripture wrote from the perspective of the terrestrial world, and from that vantage point the sun does rise and set. In fact, it is the earth's rotation which gives the impression of the sun in motion across the sky.
As early as the time of Aristarchus, the heliocentric idea was denounced as being against religion in Europe. The issue did not assume any importance, however, for nearly 2,000 years.


Nicolaus Copernicus published the definitive statement of his system in De Revolutionibus in 1543. Copernicus began to write it in 1506 and finished it in 1530, but did not publish it until the year of his death. Although he was in good standing with the Church and had dedicated the book to Pope Paul III, the published form contained an unsigned preface by Osiander stating that the system was a pure mathematical device and was not supposed to represent reality. Possibly because of that preface, the work of Copernicus inspired very little debate on whether it might be heretical during the next 60 years.

There was an early suggestion among Dominicans that the teaching should be banned, but nothing came of it at the time. Some Protestants, however, voiced strong opinions during the 16th century. Martin Luther once said:
"There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must . . . invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth."

This was reported in the context of dinner-table conversation and not a formal statement of faith. Melanchthon, however, opposed the doctrine over a period of years.

Over time, however, the Catholic Church began to become more adamant about protecting the geocentric view. Pope Urban VIII, who had approved the idea of Galileo's publishing a work on the two theories of the world, became hostile to Galileo. Over time, the Catholic Church became the primary opposition to the Heliocentric view.

The favored system had been that of Ptolemy, in which the Earth was the center of the universe and all celestial bodies orbited it. A geocentric compromise was available in the Tychonic system, in which the Sun orbited the Earth, while the planets orbited the Sun as in the Copernican model. The Jesuit astronomers in Rome were at first unreceptive to Tycho's system; the most prominent, Clavius, commented that Tycho was "confusing all of astronomy, because he wants to have Mars lower than the Sun." (Fantoli, 2003, p. 109) But as the controversy progressed and the Church took a harder line toward Copernican ideas after 1616, the Jesuits moved toward Tycho's teachings; after 1633, the use of this system was almost mandatory. For advancing heliocentric theory Galileo was put under house arrest for the last several years of his life.

Theologian and pastor Thomas Schirrmacher, however, has argued:
Contrary to legend, Galileo and the Copernican system were well regarded by church officials. Galileo was the victim of his own arrogance, the envy of his colleagues, and the politics of Pope Urban VIII. He was not accused of criticizing the Bible, but disobeying a papal decree. Catholic scientists also:
appreciated that the reference to heresy in connection with Galileo or Copernicus had no general or theological significance, (Heilbron 1999).

In the 17th century AD Galileo Galilei opposed the Roman Catholic Church by his strong support for heliocentrism

Cardinal Robert Bellarmine himself considered that Galileo's model made "excellent good sense" on the ground of mathematical simplicity; that is, as a hypothesis (see above). And he said:
If there were a real proof that the Sun is in the centre of the universe, that the Earth is in the third sphere, and that the Sun does not go round the Earth but the Earth round the Sun, then we should have to proceed with great circumspection in explaining passages of Scripture which appear to teach the contrary, and we should rather have to say that we did not understand them than declare an opinion false which has been proved to be true. But I do not think there is any such proof since none has been shown to me. (Koestler 1959, pp. 447–448) Therefore, he supported a ban on the teaching of the idea as anything but hypothesis. In 1616 he delivered to Galileo the papal command not to "hold or defend" the heliocentric idea. In the discussions leading to the ban, he was a moderate, as the Dominican party wished to forbid teaching heliocentrism in any way whatever. Galileo's heresy trial in 1633 involved making fine distinctions between "teaching" and "holding and defending as true".

The official opposition of the Church to heliocentrism did not by any means imply opposition to all astronomy; indeed, it needed observational data to maintain its calendar. In support of this effort it allowed the cathedrals themselves to be used as solar observatories called meridiane; i.e., they were turned into "reverse sundials", or gigantic pinhole cameras, where the Sun's image was projected from a hole in a window in the cathedral's lantern onto a meridian line.

In 1664, Pope Alexander VII published his Index Librorum Prohibitorum Alexandri VII Pontificis Maximi jussu editus which included all previous condemnations of geocentric books. An annotated copy of Principia by Isaac Newton was published in 1742 by Fathers le Seur and Jacquier of the Franciscan Minims, two Catholic mathematicians with a preface stating that the author's work assumed heliocentrism and could not be explained without the theory. Pope Benedict XIV suspended the ban on heliocentric works on April 16, 1757 based on Isaac Newton's work. Pope Pius VII approved a decree in 1822 by the Sacred Congregation of the Inquisition to allow the printing of heliocentric books in Rome.
are catholics not born out of Greek and Roman pagans?
if so why did they wait until 1882 to accept "knowlede of their forefathers" ?
Reply

جوري
04-11-2007, 03:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Is there anything in the quran that has created new knowledge?
Or is it all after the fact?
New Knowledge for the time and for the ages.. since lots of these cities were only a modern find.... http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post660859

one of many that weren't known at the time of the prophet and certainly not until recently---
Now you'll excuse me if I don't entertain this more.. I have already taken my break just shrugging my shoulders in amusement over stuff read here :rollseyes
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Trumble
04-11-2007, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Kinda ironic ^ since the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) never left Makkah while the verses regarding the earth and womb were being revealed, i wonder how the knowledge of the Greeks reached there when the arabs themselves were an illiterate nation.
I assume they weren't a totally illiterate nation, otherwise how was the Qur'an written down?

As I said, the 'round earth' may well have been widely known or even common knowledge. It certainly wasn't restricted to those who had read obscure Greek tomes in some library somewhere. The idea that belief in a 'flat earth' was universal is a myth, even in relation to medieval Europe.

Galen (a Roman BTW, although he wrote in Greek) was hardly obsure, either, indeed his works were a sort of equivalent of 'Gray's Anatomy' in his day, and for centuries afterwards. While I'm not suggesting for a moment that Mohammed read Galen it is likely anyone with pretensions to being a physician had some knowledge of what he had written, even if that knowledge was second or third hand. Over several hundred years it is more than likely such knowledge reached Makkah, and indeed most of the known world. Alexander had spread Greek culture as far as India a thousand years before, and Greeks (and Romans and their Byzantine successors) had travelled the known world since that time, particularly to anywhere that traded.

All of which is rather beside the point. The principle argument for these 'miracles' is not based on whether such knowledge could have reached Makkah but whether it could have existed in the world at all. It could, and did.


format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post660859

one of many that weren't known at the time of the prophet and certainly not until recently---
How on earth do you know that they "weren't known"? It seems a perfectly reasonable supposition that what might be a "fabled lost city" now was nothing of the sort 1400 years ago? Particularly if the culture that knew about it was as illiterate as everyone keeps saying it is.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-11-2007, 06:15 PM
You could count the number of companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) who knew how to read and write with your fingers.

It was a minority, and still then - these people could only write or read arabic. The Greek works weren't translated in arabic until the Abbasid Caliphate which was around 200years after Hijrah [about 180 years after the passing away of the Prophet, peace be upon him.] And the Persian Sassanids nor the Byzantinian Romans cared about the arabs since they felt that they were useless people and the worst of society - due to the fact that there was continous tribal warfare among the arabs. The praise is for Allaah who united the arabs and within a century, the Persian and Byzantinian Empires were overthrown and the justice of Islaam spread within them lands.


Going back to the issue of the clot and womb issues, then we know that the first verses revealed were regarding the fact that man was created from a clot of blood [Surah Alaq - the first surah to be revealed], and the signs of the earth verses were mainly revealed in Makkah where it was the poor and down trodden who accepted Islaam, the elite hardly responded and actually tortured the muslims severely. Therefore these companions who were poor didn't know how to read or write either, nor did the Messenger of Allaah - so who could they have got their knowledge off?

The Qur'an was compiled fully one year after the passing away of the Messenger of Allaah, and that was after the conquest of Makkah [the conquest of Makkah was around 20years after Prophethood] - so one has to question how he had all this knowledge when the arabs themselves knew he couldn't read or write, and when he never had left the city of Makkah either?

All these explanations couldn't have merely been by 'chance.'
Reply

Hemoo
04-12-2007, 09:09 AM
besides there was many false theories in the time of the prophet
for example "some of the greeks used to say a false theory about the formation of groundwater but this false theory is not mentioned in the quran , so why did the prophet left this theory and how did he know that it is wrong,except through revelation ???"

but the quran does not mention any one of these false theroies

also people used to say that the sun is not moving but the quran didn't say the same thing ,so why didn't the quran mention the same wrong theories that existed in those era ? because it's the words of the creator of every thing which is ALLAH.

036.038
And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.


so i ask you to get me an old book (1400 years old) that mentioned many aspects of science and not a single info in it has been proven that it contradicts with the right scientific facts

even the greek and romans books you will find it contains some right things and a lot of wrong things ,you know why ? because this is the nature of the humans ,it is their nature to be sometimes wrong


but not the revelation ,not the Quran ...
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mariam.
04-12-2007, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Is there anything in the quran that has created new knowledge?
Or is it all after the fact?
Hi ranma1/2:

I think this site can help you The Quran miracles Encyclopedia

If you have any question about Islam and the scientific miracles in the Holy Quran and Hadith Send it to Magdy_fighter@hotmail.com .

finally Please Note that Arabic is the Language of Quran so It's Better to Learn it to understand clearly All the miracles in Quran ..

peace.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 07:48 PM
:salamext:


This is a good link also inshaa Allaah:

Miraculous Quran
http://www.load-islam.com/wel_islam.php?topic_id=3
Reply

ranma1/2
04-13-2007, 01:54 AM
Hi Hemoo,
I have to say it seems like you are picking and choosing what you deem to be false theories.
Would you say the prediction "Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

Is it a true or false theory?

regardless of that as i have said before there is no reason to believe that there are any predictions what so ever. Any thing that might actually be said was either known at the time or is taking the words out of context and trying to make them fit a modern theory.

If they were true predictions then you should expect to see many a muslim scientific advancement inspired by the quran. I know of none.
Reply

ranma1/2
04-13-2007, 01:59 AM
Hi Fi_Sabilillah and Mariam

I have book marked the sites you suggested but so far what i have scanned I dont have high hopes.

Thanks for the links.
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ranma1/2
04-13-2007, 02:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mariam.
Hi ranma1/2:

...

finally Please Note that Arabic is the Language of Quran so It's Better to Learn it to understand clearly All the miracles in Quran ..

peace.
Hi again, I appreciate the civil tone it is very refreshing after speaking to some members on this board.

I have a question that ill ask here and we can talk at another thread to keep this oneon topic.

Why did god only want the quran in arabic. It is clear that much misunderstanding is created when you cant translate something from one language to another with out slightly changing the meaning. It seems to me god could have easily sent to multiple prohits the perfect translation for at elast the major languages. It also seems to me that even if you speak the language natively there are always going to be slight problems when you learn the language, you may understand a word slightly differently than others. If you want to reply just create another thread and we will discuss there. Thanks
Reply

جوري
04-13-2007, 02:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Hi Hemoo,
I have to say it seems like you are picking and choosing what you deem to be false theories.
Would you say the prediction "Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

Is it a true or false theory?

.
فَلْيَنظُرِ الْإِنسَانُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ {5}
[Pickthal 86:5] So let man consider from what he is created.

خُلِقَ مِن مَّاء دَافِقٍ {6}
[Pickthal 86:6] He is created from a gushing fluid

يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ {7}
[Pickthal 86:7] That issued from between the loins and ribs.

إِنَّهُ عَلَى رَجْعِهِ لَقَادِرٌ {8}
[Pickthal 86:8] Lo! He verily is Able to return him (unto life)

Main Entry: loin
Pronunciation: 'loin
Function: noun
2 plural a : the upper and lower abdominal regions and the region about the hips b (1) : the pubic region


Also take a look at where the seminal vesicle is and then pose the question again

http://owensboro.kctcs.edu/gcaplan/a...%20anatomy.htm

"As you may already know, the purpose of semen is to take the sperm for a ride through the body and to nourish it along the way. A very small part of a man's seminal fluid is actually sperm made in the testicles; the rest is semen produced by the prostate gland and the nearby seminal vesicles."

Do the verses seem false?
Reply

جوري
04-13-2007, 02:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble

How on earth do you know that they "weren't known"? It seems a perfectly reasonable supposition that what might be a "fabled lost city" now was nothing of the sort 1400 years ago? Particularly if the culture that knew about it was as illiterate as everyone keeps saying it is.
How on earth do you know that they were? the city was buried under, if you'd actually read the article... a city from 2800 BC and wasn't mentioned any other text or seen until recently and only by satellite



http://home.hetnet.nl/~lilian_jan_sc.../oman/Ubar.htm
and still not satisfactory for you?
Why do you have an explanation for everything, other than what is blatantly obvious? Did prophet Mohammed have the time to test high Attitude hypoxia, and the sex of the worker bee and scavenge for lost cities in Petra and 3amman, checking out the sea waves, speaking of Christians who died hundreds of years prior in a cave in turkey that weren't even mentioned in other biblical books ... in beautiful unparalleled text, all while setting laws for a complete political, social, economic and religious system?-- What is the point in doing all that? Did he enjoy the mockery of querish, being ousted by his tribe and sleeping on an empty stomach? or just for amusements sake?
Reply

thirdwatch512
04-13-2007, 03:26 AM
hello you guys,

now I, being a christian, am not fascinated by science in the qu'ran one bit.

the Bible says many times that false prophets will come along, who will be able to perform miracles, who might prophesy the future, and who might even speak greatly of the Lord. but nevertheless, that doesn't make them a prophet. it even says that even the elect will be deceived.

but hey, that shows the true colors of a religion.. whenever i read these "science in qu'ran" or "islamic science", i don't get fascinated by islam.. i realize that people only base their faith on so called science. i realize that the believers weren't true believers to begin with if they require science to believe.

if you're going to show the so called science in the qu'ran, why don't you show the verses that say the sun revolves around the earth? lol.

now about the city of iram.. in A Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, A translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, pp. 197-198, it quotes Jews saying "We shall follow him and kill you by his aid as 'Ad and Iram perished" ... so um, appearently, according to this, the Jews knew about iram if they quoted it.
Reply

جوري
04-13-2007, 03:42 AM
Funny thing.. go check on comparative religion.. you'll find the Jews say the exact same thing of Jesus (a false messiah) since their books tells them to be wary of false prophets-- citing your identical words......

you don't know the first thing about how we practice or what we base our faith on so don't make ridiculous generalizations. You speak of the miracles Jesus' brought forth, yet the bible is the only testament to them. The Quran is its own testament of beauty and transcendence...When the Quran speaks of the heaven's splitting asunder so that it appears like a rose "When the sky splits apart, and turns rose-like..." (Qur'an 55:37)
.. I am sure meant nothing to the people at the time, but it means something to me when I see images captured by NASA... it is a book for every generation and every generation will find something in it exclusively for them... That is in essence its greatest miracle... What we can always read and see.. not read and accept on blind faith





if memory serves me well... some of your personal practices that you have professed here on the forum aren't acceptable even by Christian standards, so I don't see how your view of Islam is consequential?


Perhaps you can show us the verses of the sun revolving around the earth?

And good thing you are following the right prophet "Paul"-- he is really setting you on the right path...

Lastly I don't see how ibn Ishaq speaks for the Jews-- is this in the Tanakh?? in any of their actual books? for the longest time this was deemed the "fabled" city -- and the Quran passed off as false because of it-- no Jew came forth to identify it then, why is it all of a sudden supposedly mentioned by them vis a vis ibn ishaq of whom survives word in mainly two sources both of them edited copies the latter an edited copy, or recension, prepared by his student Salama ibn-Fadl al-Ansari.
BTW, I have looked up the pages and no such account of those Jews is mentioned. So not mentioned in Jewish scriptures and not mentioned in edited copies whose authenticity has not been proven--makes me wonder how far you need to circumnavigate the world to prove something in the Quran incorrect or borrowed?

No one is expecting you to follow the Quran or be a Muslim-- I personally think it a blessing-- but why are you here on an islamic forum?

peace!
Reply

thirdwatch512
04-13-2007, 03:51 AM
i'm on an islamic forum to learn. is that illegal?

if, since i'm a christian, i shouldn't be welcomed here, simply because i profess a different faith.. do you think that you should be welcome in america, since you profess a different faith then most? you see... that argument already shatters.

and about your post of "prophet paul." - if Christian texts are so corrupt, then why on earth does the qu'ran say to refer to "the People of the Book" numerous times!!

that would be like someone saying the earth was flat, and it had been already adressed that the earth wasn't flat, and the person was wrong, yet the textbooks still said the earth was flat!! makes no sense!

and about me, and my personally life.. yes, i am gay. but my Church accepts me. i have talked to my priest about ti several times, and he told me that everyone is welcomed in Gods house, reguardless of who we love.

so some christians might not like me, but nevertheless will usually still agree that i am welcome in a Church.

almost anyone is welcome into a church. :)
Reply

جوري
04-13-2007, 04:11 AM
You mock what is in the Quran, you pass false accusations as to its contents and generally don't seem to enjoy your stay here from some of your noted comments, it would seem to make sense that you would be in a place where you are with your peers and are comfortable? If I went to a Christian forum, I'd not be going there to tell them Jesus is the false Messiah and I am not amused by their phony biblical text... seems sort of insolent don't you think?

Also practically the majority of Americans are mutts-- unless you are one of the indigenous people... check the demographics to see how many religions are practiced here before we have this discussion on who does or doesn't belong!

But I digress--There is not a verse in the Quran and I defy you to find one that mentions the Earth as flat,Also what you contended earlier was the sun revolving around the earth? Why does your story change? Don't confuse your Christian middle ages for what is in the Quran if you knew Arabic.. I believe you have an Arabic boyfriend? ask him what (daha'ha) "دَحَاهَا "means as was described of the earth... if it were lost to you in the translation that isn't the Quran's problem but yours for deliberately twisting to suit your whims
وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا {30}
[Shakir 79:30] And the earth, He expanded it after that.

the word itself "dah'ha"دَحَاهَا means to give it a round/elliptical shape... this isn't subject to interpretations of your whims or needs.

From a historical perspective, perhaps you can explain why the globe that was given by AL-IDRISI ( A Muslim Sholar) (1099-1166 C.E.) to Roger II, King of Sicily who crushed it (the globe that is), Roger contending the medieval common belief accepted by the chruch, stating that the earth is flat?



I don't care what your church allows or disallows G-D's laws aren't subject to liberal interpretation..

-- the "book" that G-D sent.. isn't remotly close to what you have got. I am not going to get into it any more than this, it has already been discussed some where on this forum ad nauseum ...
peace!
Reply

ranma1/2
04-13-2007, 06:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
فَلْيَنظُرِ الْإِنسَانُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ {5}
......Also take a look at where the seminal vesicle is and then pose the question again

.......
"As you may already know, the purpose of semen is to take the sperm for a ride through the body and to nourish it along the way. A very small part of a man's seminal fluid is actually sperm made in the testicles; the rest is semen produced by the prostate gland and the nearby seminal vesicles."

Do the verses seem false?
Yes, absolutely YES! You do know the prostate gland and seminal vessels are not located between the back bone and ribs right?

I would post a diagram but im sure that would break some sort of forum rule.

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

For that matter we are not formed in the man at all but we are formed from DNA contributed by both the man and the woman. And since it is suggesting that we are formed from a drop emiited between the backbone a and rib it sounds as if it is suggesting the sperm is created there.


Of course we could digress into how this knowledge was copied from what was known at the time and incorrect, it was believe for centuries that sperm came form the kidney "which is between the spine and the ribs unlike the prostate"
Reply

جوري
04-13-2007, 06:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Yes, absolutely YES! You do know the prostate gland and seminal vessels are not located between the back bone and ribs right?

I would post a diagram but im sure that would break some sort of forum rule.

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

For that matter we are not formed in the man at all but we are formed from DNA contributed by both the man and the woman. And since it is suggesting that we are formed from a drop emiited between the backbone a and rib it sounds as if it is suggesting the sperm is created there.


Of course we could digress into how this knowledge was copied from what was known at the time and incorrect, it was believe for centuries that sperm came form the kidney "which is between the spine and the ribs unlike the prostate"
We have already provided you with the appropriate translation, if you insist your understanding of Arabic from your Islamophobic sites is better --then whatever tickles your fancy.. You provide us with mild amusements on occasion...

فَلْيَنظُرِ الْإِنسَانُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ {5}
[Pickthal 86:5] So let man consider from what he is created.


خُلِقَ مِن مَّاء دَافِقٍ {6}

[Pickthal 86:6] He is created from a gushing fluid


يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ {7}
[Pickthal 86:7] That issued from between the loins and ribs.



Main Entry: loin
Pronunciation: 'loin
Function: noun
2 plural a : the upper and lower abdominal regions and the region about the hips b (1) : the pubic region

or do you wish to turn this into a (cut/paste and run) before I have to account for my blather sort of debate like you have done on your evolution thread? If you have strong evidence as to how the Quran was copied from other sources, then please prove it... here is a cyber copy http://www.--------------/quran/with three different translations
And we have a wonderful refutation section right here on the forum for you to spew hate to your heart's content!

If by your inflammatory writing style you wish to elicit some kind of a reaction in truth you highlight your mindlessness and repeatedly ...
The creation of man is discussed all throughout the Quran...
Your diminutive insight of its contents with your usual cutting edge is hardly the standard by which we measure our scriptures ...

BTW.. for what it is worth I can make your head spin with embryology and anatomy as we have done with molecular biology and genetics on the other thread... but I have lost interest.. I don't find you a challenging contender.. just unstable without honorable debate ethics!

I'll leave this to my brothers and sisters on the forum who appreciate a good psychological challenge... I lose interest when we replace honest exchange for condescension



peace!
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 12:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

if you're going to show the so called science in the qu'ran, why don't you show the verses that say the sun revolves around the earth? lol.

Or how about the advanced west today who uses the terms 'sunset' and 'sunrise' :) i never knew we believed that scientifically, so why do people use it? It's because its a figure of speech, thats exactly the same in the arabic language.



Regards.
Reply

mariam.
04-13-2007, 01:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
if you're going to show the so called science in the qu'ran, why don't you show the verses that say the sun revolves around the earth? lol.
please can you quote this verses that you talking about .. In spite of I think that brother Fi_Sabilillah answer you clearly.
Reply

mariam.
04-13-2007, 01:57 PM
"He merges Night into Day, and He merges Day into Night, and He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not a straw."

"And the Sun runs unto a resting place: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing."

If you mean this verses .. I want to ask you have you ever hear about solar apex?

These facts communicated in the Qur'an have been discovered by astronomical observations in our age. According to the calculations of experts on astronomy, the Sun is traveling at the enormous speed of 720,000 kilometers an hour in the direction of the star Vega in a particular orbit called the Solar Apex. This means that the sun travels roughly 17,280,000 kilometers a day. Along with the Sun, and all planets and satellites within the gravitational system of the Sun also travel the same distance. In addition, all the stars in the universe are in a similar planned motion.

take care of yourself
Reply

ranma1/2
04-13-2007, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia;712457[Pickthal 86:7
That issued from between the loins and ribs.


loin
.....the upper and lower abdominal regions and the region about the hips b (1) : the pubic region
Wow that could not at all have been known at the time.. oh woe is me....
Hmm. well at least with this translation it doesnt sound as horribly wrong.. Im curiouys do you only use pickthal or do you use other translations as they suit?

Still even then it is wrong in that its getting super broad.... It would be much more accurate to say its produced in within the pelvis. but nooo. it has to be between the loin and the rib... Come on this doesnt help your case one bit. Noe what do you say to the person that posted their translation? Are they just ignorant for not using your version?

or do you wish to turn this into a (cut/paste and run) before I have to account for my blather sort of debate like you have done on your evolution thread?
more accusations... sigh.. i explained myself in those threads and you never answered my questions. You just insult as you have hear too..

If you have strong evidence as to how the Quran was copied from other sources, then please prove it... here is a cyber copy http://www.--------------/quran/with three different translations
And we have a wonderful refutation section right here on the forum for you to spew hate to your heart's content!
Hate? Your the one being rude and spewing insults.

....
The creation of man is discussed all throughout the Quran...
Yes and its wrong many many times...
Your diminutive insight of its contents with your usual cutting edge is hardly the standard by which we measure our scriptures ...
See more childish insults.. is it no wonder why i just started to ignore you in the evo thread? If you cant attack the facts you attack the person. You make fun of their grammar and spelling oh my... he spelt a word wrong...

BTW.. for what it is worth I can make your head spin with embryology and anatomy as we have done with molecular biology and genetics on the other thread...
and make false claims.. You seem to think if you use what you think are fancy words to try to out vocab someone you will win. You have yet to make your point clear instead you try to confuse and deceive.
but I have lost interest..
yay...

I don't find you a challenging contender.. just unstable without honorable debate ethics!
Sigh... well we know what your debate ethics are.. Insult, ignore facts, lie, insult and repeat...
I'll leave this to my brothers and sisters on the forum who appreciate a good psychological challenge... I lose interest when we replace honest exchange for condescension

Thank goodness. I know that they can be civil and polite.

peace!
So now that this individual is gone with his/her insults we can hopefully continue with civility and no more childish insults.
Reply

mariam.
04-13-2007, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Yes and its wrong many many times...
:exhausted ....!!

why you are opinionative? .. please quote this verses that you talking about.
Reply

جوري
04-13-2007, 03:26 PM
I think anyone who has some entry level education and ethics can tell the difference between a quality post and well --yours. The Questions on evolution are actually still open and unanswered by your person.

I read the Quran in Arabic, and have actually provided you three transliteration to pick and choose what you desire, it will not derange the original Arabic text which is spoken during prayer by 1.8 billion Muslims, from Arabia to china to Australia. should you wish to bring forth questions as to its contents, then please do so.
Any translation isn't remotely close to the original semetic Arabic text, but the translators have given it their best. Makes your desired interpretation seem very insignificant in the scheme of things!

If you mistake research I have done for "fancy words" and "childish insults" that is your problem not mine--I suggest you re-evaluate why you are posting here. And be more read before you respond instead of referencing people to pages whose contents you cannot extract or distill down to answer simple questions.

If again you are finding something wrong in the Quran --"many many" times isn't the appropriate assertion, would probably give you an (F) if you were to answer so on an exam question. Bring out what is questionable to you and start an honest debate.

I know you don't know the first thing about the Quran, just like you don't know the first thing about Mutation from your evolution thread. As you presented us with the usual cut and paste we are accustomed to seeing.
Search the forum and you'll see a repeated account of what you have posted here. Which have all been refuted. Seems every Islamophobe frequents the same sites for the same quotes out of context. I don't find that a measure of free thought. But a measure as of hate and closed mindedness.

-- I hope you train vigorously under someone before you start teaching, if that is indeed what you plan to do, I have my doubts just from the level of which you present yourself! but if you are I hope he/she would take your ethics, knowledge, people skill and tolerance to the very least an acceptable level.
There is nothing further that I wish to impart to your person.

peace!
Reply

mariam.
04-13-2007, 05:32 PM
We created you, so why do you not confirm the truth? Have you thought about the sperm that you ejaculate? Is it you who create it or are We the Creator? (Qur'an, 56: 57-59)

you can visit this site to learn more about THE MIRACLE OF HUMAN CREATION

take care of yourself
Reply

Trumble
04-13-2007, 11:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
and still not satisfactory for you?
Why should it be?! You have absolutely no idea whether the place was remembered 1400 years ago in myth or memory through those Bedouin tales (which are still around, apparently). It is not up to me to prove it was, which is just as impossible as proving it wasn't. To me it seems very likely it was, hence the inclusion in the Qur'an which just reproduces those folk tales and legends that for all we know were common among those who sat around a fire watching their sheep and telling such tales. The Greeks were telling stories about Troy 1400 years after the Trojan War (if there was one) - do you think they had all read Homer?! If those towers were such a distinguishing feature, they would of course be included in the legend.
Reply

جوري
04-13-2007, 11:39 PM
Whatever tickles your fancy.... you want to explain away every finding in the entire book in favor for butter statues of Buddha, then by all means don't let me stop you...
peace
Reply

Trumble
04-14-2007, 12:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Whatever tickles your fancy....

This tickled it....





Space images taken by NASA reveal a mysterious ancient bridge in the Palk Strait between India and Sri Lanka. The recently discovered bridge currently named as Adam's Bridge is made of chain of shoals, c.18 mi (30 km) long.

The bridge's unique curvature and composition by age reveals that it is man made. The legends as well as Archeological studies reveal that the first signs of human inhabitants in Sri Lanka date back to the a primitive age, about 1,750,000 years ago and the bridge's age is also almost equivalent.
This information is a crucial aspect for an insight into the mysterious legend called Ramayana, which was supposed to have taken place in treta yuga (more than 1,700,000 years ago).
In this epic, there is a mentioning about a bridge, which was built between Rameshwaram (India) and Srilankan coast under the supervision of a dynamic and invincible figure called Rama who is supposed to be the incarnation of the supreme.

This information may not be of much importance to the archeologists who are interested in exploring the origins of man, but it is sure to open the spiritual gates of the people of the world to have come to know an ancient history linked to the Indian mythology.
Source

Rather puts those lost cities in perspective, hmm ? The Ramayana was first written down around 300 BCE.
Reply

جوري
04-14-2007, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
troll alert! he has need to win. show charity and let him sister
I honestly was going to anyway.. had a long day and was supposed to take my leave of absence from this forum some time last Sunday.. it just sucks me in like a vortex.

وَدَّ كَثِيرٌ مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ لَوْ يَرُدُّونَكُم مِّن بَعْدِ إِيمَانِكُمْ كُفَّاراً حَسَدًا مِّنْ عِندِ أَنفُسِهِم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْحَقُّ فَاعْفُواْ وَاصْفَحُواْ حَتَّى يَأْتِيَ اللّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ {

So I am not bothered akhi :)
Reply

Trumble
04-14-2007, 01:16 AM
Tsk, tsk. No comments about what must have been an amazing divine revelation? How could those early Sanskrit writers have possibly have known about this when modern science in the form of the shuttle has only just discovered it? It couldn't be just "ancient history linked to the Indian mythology".. even if the Hare Krishnas, of all people, think it might be? Could it?

With far too many of these so-called miracles the human factor is dismissed in favour of divine intervention far too easily. :)
Reply

ranma1/2
04-14-2007, 02:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Tsk, tsk. No comments about what must have been an amazing divine revelation? How could those early Sanskrit writers have possibly have known about this when modern science in the form of the shuttle has only just discovered it? It couldn't be just "ancient history linked to the Indian mythology".. even if the Hare Krishnas, of all people, think it might be? Could it?

With far too many of these so-called miracles the human factor is dismissed in favour of divine intervention far too easily. :)
They have to dismiss the human factor or they cant go cool look god did it...
Reply

Trumble
04-14-2007, 08:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
They have to dismiss the human factor or they cant go cool look god did it...
Not really. You make it sound clinical and deliberate and it really isn't. The atheistic element can be just as prone to the same thing in reverse (go read John Dawkins!)

For many of the islamic 'scientific miracles' there is certainly a case for presenting them as just that, miracles; as representing knowledge that could not possibly have been known in Mohammed's day or at the very least could not have been known to him. Most are very interesting to ponder and cannot be totally dismissed.

Likewise, there is always a case why they may not be 'miracles'. This seems to fall into two types, either those where the knowledge supposedly 'unknowable' was probably nothing of the sort, or those where the verse concerned requires so much 'interpretation' if examined objectively that one or more alternatives, often much more plausible in the context concerned, are rejected far quicker than they should be.

If there were indeed any 'proof' either way most rational people would accept it. But there is none no matter how many times both atheists and theists type the word. Evidence, yes, and how convincing you find points raised on one side or the other is, like most things, pretty much conditioned by the 'belief' position you had to start with. But proof, none. As I keep saying it's all a matter of faith, not proof. And there really isn't anything wrong with that. Personally I find a good faith-based argument, particularly one based around excellent moral and spiritual teachings, far more impressive than dodgy 'scientific' parallels.
Reply

mariam.
04-14-2007, 11:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
They have to dismiss the human factor or they cant go cool look god did it...
so, you don't want to quote me this verses .. that you talking about and said:Yes and it's wrong many many times ....!

I think that it's from retardation to give decision like this with out proof.
Reply

ranma1/2
04-14-2007, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mariam.
so, you don't want to quote me this verses .. that you talking about and said:Yes and it's wrong many many times ....!

I think that it's from retardation to give decision like this with out proof.
Well i was hoping ot expect more from you but with you insulting me with the retarded comments I guess i was wrong.

All I am conserned about is what we have discussed so far. We can talk in another thread about other verses.
Reply

mariam.
04-14-2007, 02:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Well i was hoping ot expect more from you but with you insulting me with the retarded comments I guess i was wrong.

All I am conserned about is what we have discussed so far. We can talk in another thread about other verses.
Hi, first I did'nt intend to make you understand my said like an insult.

Only I want to criticise your deed, how you can said some thing Like that about our Holy book with out any proof then, you can't eccept my said about you?

we can discuss about this verses On my thread The miracle of human creation ... Iam waiting for your response.

take care.
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-15-2010, 03:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
This tickled it....





Source

Rather puts those lost cities in perspective, hmm ? The Ramayana was first written down around 300 BCE.
Fancy shancy. But I am very skeptic and I do not let looks blind me.

The bridge is visible. Even if it was constructed millions of years ago, it was visible to the eyes in 300 BC when Ramayana was supposedly written.

Quran mentions a city which was not known to the Arabs as it was not visible to them and in reality existed but only under the ground.

A different set of skills required for accurately mentioning a city which is invisible and mentioning bridge which is visible and probably used by fishermen.
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-15-2010, 03:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
This tickled it....





Source

Rather puts those lost cities in perspective, hmm ? The Ramayana was first written down around 300 BCE.
Fancy shancy. But I am very skeptic and I do not let looks blind me.

The bridge is visible. Even if it was constructed millions of years ago, it was visible to the eyes in 300 BC when Ramayana was supposedly written.

Quran mentions a city which was not known to the Arabs as it was not visible to them and in reality existed but only under the ground.

A different set of skills is required for accurately mentioning a city which is invisible and mentioning bridge which is visible and probably used by fishermen.
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-15-2010, 03:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
This tickled it....





Source

Rather puts those lost cities in perspective, hmm ? The Ramayana was first written down around 300 BCE.
Fancy shancy. But I am very skeptic and I do not let looks blind me.

The bridge is visible. Even if it was constructed millions of years ago, it was visible to the eyes in 300 BC when Ramayana was supposedly written.

Quran mentions a city which was not known to the Arabs as it was not visible to them and in reality existed but only under the ground.

A different set of skills is required for accurately mentioning a city which is invisible and mentioning bridge which is visible and probably used by fishermen.
Reply

Al-Indunisiy
02-20-2010, 11:11 PM
:sl:

@ mad_scientist: Uhh, you repeated the same post thrice.
Reply

Salahudeen
02-21-2010, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Indunisiy
:sl:

@ mad_scientist: Uhh, you repeated the same post thrice.
I guess the brother really wanted to get his point across :)
Reply

CosmicPathos
02-21-2010, 01:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
I guess the brother really wanted to get his point across :)
lol. I think its my net problem. When I press "post" it keeps on loading then a blank page comes. So I hit "back" and post again thinking it wasnt posted previously. I apologize for 3 posts.
Reply

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