A Question Relating to the Bible being changed

[don532]

Greetings. I know I am showing my lack of knowledge on this subject, but I really would like to know the Muslim perspective on a couple of questions I have had for a long time.

Mohammad and the Koran came to us around 622AD. This is almost 300 years after the council at Nicea.

If I am not mistaken, the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God and calls them the word of God, light and guidance, and illumination.

I think I am correct in assuming Muslims believe the scriptures were corrupted before the council of Nicea.

1. Why would the revelation given to Mohammad instruct Muslims to pay any attention to these texts, and even refer to them so highly, if they have been corrupted for hundreds of years at the time the Koran was written?

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

Thank you.

[جوري]

I am not going to get into all of this and will leave it to someone else... but I lived in a "Muslim" country and bought myself a bible from there in Arabic-- no one gave me an evil look or forbade me, or sold it to me in an ally way as an illegal purchase!... so that answers your very last Q . I hope.... Also though we know that the previous books are from (G-D) -- as it states in the Quran.. people have changed the word of G-D in it.....
فَ

وَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ {79}

[Pickthal 2:79] Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

There are tons of chapters that are speak of Jesus (PBUH) and that is how we know of him--
and one for Mary (SW) all by herself if you wished to read it it is number (19)--
At this stage someone else can probably answer your Q's in more details
peace!

[don532]

I did not say or mean to imply I believed the Bible was illegal in all Muslim countries. It certainly is in some.

I also realize there are chapters in the Koran that speak of Jesus. That's not my question at all. Here it is again.

Greetings. I know I am showing my lack of knowledge on this subject, but I really would like to know the Muslim perspective on a couple of questions I have had for a long time.

Mohammad and the Koran came to us around 622AD. This is almost 300 years after the council at Nicea.

If I am not mistaken, the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God and calls them the word of God, light and guidance, and illumination.

I think I am correct in assuming Muslims believe the scriptures were corrupted before the council of Nicea.

1. Why would the revelation given to Mohammad instruct Muslims to pay any attention to these texts, and even refer to them so highly, if they have been corrupted for hundreds of years at the time the Koran was written?

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

Thank you.

[queenmuslimah]

hello....firstly i will tell u that i have no knowledge of this whatso ever....but from wat i have heard...........we(muslims) must believe that the previous books were send down by god....but no believe in them.....like believe wat they are saying is true....sure there are few things that are similar between the quran and the bible........(im guessing these few things were the ones that werent changed..)...but anywho.......yea we have to beleive that they were send to prophets before muhamed(saw)....but not believe, believe wat is said inside them.............i have also heard that a muslim person can read the bible as long as they kno that their faith in allah is strong and that they wont believe in wat is said in the bible....as u kno the bible and the books before have been changed....but than when the quran came down god promised that it will never be changed!!!!!!!!......and alhamdulillah it has not been.....as for why bible is not legal in muslim countries....all i can say is... maybe they fear that the people might believe wat is said in the bible....and yea......hope wat i have said answered ur question....again i have no knowledge but this is wat i have heard.....
anything bad i have said is from the shaytan and me and anything good i have said is from allah(swa)

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[جوري]

I think I am correct in assuming Muslims believe the scriptures were corrupted before the council of Nicea..

No.. some Christians before the Council of Nice believed in the prophetic message of Jesus but not his divinity!... a chapter in the Quran number 18 suret al-kahf even speaks of early Christians who were in fact like Muslims! We have posted a whole thread on Arius and other Christians who believed in the true message of Jesus before your council! Here is a story of the cave of seven sleepers that has made it to the Quran but isn't in the bible....

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/t...n-sleepers.htm

1. Why would the revelation given to Mohammad instruct Muslims to pay any attention to these texts, and even refer to them so highly, if they have been corrupted for hundreds of years at the time the Koran was written?

The message is from G-D corruption is from man! You certainly believe that the Torah is from Moses I assume that is what you refer to as the (OT) but do you follow its laws or do you follow the laws of the NT?

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

Thank you.

we've already answered this one for you!

peace!

[Idris]

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

I did not know can tell who has banned it?

[don532]

Greetings. Thank you for your response. Although I did not review that thread, I am aware of Arius and the Arianism movement. He lived 250 - 336 AD and was a presbyter in the Church of Alexandria in North Africa. He denied the full deity of the pre-existent Son of God. That is true. That school of thought existed.

Let's assume Arius was correct, which is in accordance with Muslim belief. The Injeel which I believe is what the New Testament is called in the Koran was put together from writings which passed the tests of canonicity at Nicea in 325 AD. The Koran was written in 622 AD. The Injeel was already corrupt when the Koran was written saying it was God's word, because no Arian like writings were put into the Injeel. However, the charge of corruption of the Injeel or Torah never appears in the Koran does it? It only appears in later writings of men.


Respectfully, telling me someone bought a Bible in one Muslim country does not answer why the Bible is outlawed in some Muslim countries. I just want to know the reasoning behind such a thing.

Peace.

[don532]

I did not know can tell who has banned it?

Saudi Arabia comes to my mind immediately.

[جوري]

I believe I have already quoted you from the Quran of its corruption... you can do a simple search and read it for yourself, I don't have enough time to squeeze an entire doctrine into a paragraph!....
http://quran.al-islam.com/

lastly I can't deal with generalities-- I don't know which countries you are talking about? or what the reasoning is behind them banning the bible if at all? for starters no Muslim country follows Islamic laws-- so each is left to its own governmental devices!..... If you really want a bible you can always make your purchase on the Internet I can't imagine why imposing a sale in a Muslim country would make any bit of a difference either way!

[جوري]

Saudi Arabia comes to my mind immediately.

I have lived in Saudi Arabia for four years and there was no such ban!-- I have browsed their libraries and malls... if you want to verify something best do it in person rather than a guess at the so-called bans and laws they impose and apply! We had Christian Lebanese neighbors who had their bible and their santa clause for Xmas!... I didn't see anyone coming and banning them or confiscating their bible...
peace!

[don532]

[Pickthal 2:79] Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

Thank you for your patience with my lack of knowledge. So the above is the writing in the Koran which means writings in the torah and injeel are corrupted by man?

Peace

[جوري]

One of many!

peace!

[جوري]

Here are a few verses to do with JESUS (PBUH)

Behold! Allah said: "O 'Isa! I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. 3.55



The similitude of 'Isa before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be": and he was. 3.59

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Musa, 'Isa, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." 3.84

That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. 4.157

We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Nuh and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, to 'Isa, Ayyub, Yunus, Harun, and Sulaiman, and to Dawud We gave the Psalms. 4.163

All you need to do is go to http://quran.al-islam.com/Search/Src...&flag=1&ID=656

type (ISA) for Jesus and all the verses having to do with him will come up... I have in fact done it for you here... you can see clearly assertion to his prophethood and the book he was given, all denying him as the son of G-D--just by default alone you'll have to conclude the bible's corruption-- and I don't believe the old T. speaks of Jesus' divinity... in fact if you'll have anything coroborating Jesus(PBUH)' being a messanger from G-D you'll find it in the Quran not the OT...!

peace!

[Grace Seeker]

Don, I think I understand your question, and though not Muslim I've had enough conversations regarding it with Muslims to think I might be able to address your first question which it seems still hasn't been quite grasped.

As I understand it, Islam teaches (not just in the Qu'ran, but also in the hadith) that the Injil is a message given by Allah to Jesus for him to share with the Jews of his day. This is what should have been written, but the New Testament preserves a different message than that of Jesus -- blame it on Paul who started twisting things. Nonetheless the first Christians (other than those influenced by Paul) were true followers of Jesus' real message and thus were by definition followers of Islam. Sometime after that and before the council of Nicea the whole thing got corrupted. Even the writings of people like the Apostle John were changed to reflect the heresies of Paul, and other writings that should have been kept in the New Testament were scrapped by these same leaders of the church that were now no longer following Islam by heresy. So, when the Qu'ran speaks of the people of the Book as a reference to Christians, "the book" the Qu'ran is referring to is the original message of Jesus that should have been written down and that part of New Testament which was altered and scrapped by later leaders in the church. Of course it is recognized that some of the New Testament is still good and correct, but that trying to determine which parts are good and which parts are not is impossible without the original to compare it to, the best way to tell today is to compare it to the teachings of the Qu'ran. That which does not agree is bad. That which agrees is good. And that which is still undetermined is undeterminable and thus not trustworthy. The people of the book only had this book until the time of the Qu'ran, so they are given grace to submit as best as they could until a more perfect revelation is made available to them. Once they have this true message shared with them they are then accountable to how they receive it, and they need to turn away from that which has been corrupted. This latter concept when applied not to people, but to books would be reason enough for those that do outlaw the Bible to outlaw it as somethng which is haraam and harmful to those who might be misled from Allah by its false teachings.

Now, we will let the Muslim members of this board correct any concepts which I may have stated in error. Then if I have properly understood your question you will have your answer.

[جوري]

Gene-- you did well... I just can't understand why you won't cross over? G-D's hands are awaiting you...... grab hold!......
hmmmmmmmmmmmmn
peace!

[don532]

I have lived in Saudi Arabia for four years and there was no such ban!-- I have browsed their libraries and malls... if you want to verify something best do it in person rather than a guess at the so-called bans and laws they impose and apply! We had Christian Lebanese neighbors who had their bible and their santa clause for Xmas!... I didn't see anyone coming and banning them or confiscating their bible...
peace!

Greetings and thank you again. I am not guessing on this subject. I have travelled globally. We are now allowed to bring religious items relating to anything other than Islam into Saudi Arabia.
Reference:
http://www.saudia-online.com/Travell...i%20Arabia.htm

Items and articles belonging to religions other than Islam are also prohibited. These may include Bibles, crucifixes, statues, carvings, items with religious symbols such as the Star of David, and others. Makkah and Medina hold special religious significance and only persons of the Islamic faith are allowed entry.

Maybe Saudi Arabia says one thing and does another? Surely not. Peace.

[don532]

Greetings and thank you again. I am not guessing on this subject. I have travelled globally. We are now allowed to bring religious items relating to anything other than Islam into Saudi Arabia.
Reference:
http://www.saudia-online.com/Travell...i%20Arabia.htm

Items and articles belonging to religions other than Islam are also prohibited. These may include Bibles, crucifixes, statues, carvings, items with religious symbols such as the Star of David, and others. Makkah and Medina hold special religious significance and only persons of the Islamic faith are allowed entry.

Maybe Saudi Arabia says one thing and does another? Surely not. Peace.

I mis-typed my reply. That should read "we are NOT allowed to bring religious items....."

[Grace Seeker]

Gene-- you did well... I just can't understand why you won't cross over? G-D's hands are awaiting you...... grab hold!......
hmmmmmmmmmmmmn
peace!

:D

I think that I am probably one of those that Allah has spoken of as kafir. I will gladly explain to you why I understand the message of Islam, but cannot accept it as a way of life to anyone who is truly open to hear another answer. However, only to those who truly want to know what does guide and motivate my life. On this board, as in my personal life, I will respect Islam even if I am not a Muslim, and therefore will not proselytize those who do not wish to listen.

[جوري]

I know you are not allowed to bring statues but I assure you our neighbors were xtians and had all their xtian items....... from crosses to santa clause to bible...... what is found on a website might not be significantly true!

peace!

[جوري]

:D

I think that I am probably one of those that Allah has spoken of as kafir. I will gladly explain to you why I understand the message of Islam, but cannot accept it as a way of life to anyone who is truly open to hear another answer. However, only to those who truly want to know what does guide and motivate my life. On this board, as in my personal life, I will respect Islam even if I am not a Muslim, and therefore will not proselytize those who do not wish to listen.

eh what can I say------May G-D guide you to the path of the righteous!

I'll leave you with this verse!


"And hold fast, all together, by the Rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the Pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: that ye may be guided." 3.103......


peace!

[don532]

I know you are not allowed to bring statues but I assure you our neighbors were xtians and had all their xtian items....... from crosses to santa clause to bible...... what is found on a website might not be significantly true!

peace!

My experience with this is not only what is on that website. Enough said. Peace.

[don532]

Don, I think I understand your question, and though not Muslim I've had enough conversations regarding it with Muslims to think I might be able to address your first question which it seems still hasn't been quite grasped.

As I understand it, Islam teaches (not just in the Qu'ran, but also in the hadith) that the Injil is a message given by Allah to Jesus for him to share with the Jews of his day. This is what should have been written, but the New Testament preserves a different message than that of Jesus -- blame it on Paul who started twisting things. Nonetheless the first Christians (other than those influenced by Paul) were true followers of Jesus' real message and thus were by definition followers of Islam. Sometime after that and before the council of Nicea the whole thing got corrupted. Even the writings of people like the Apostle John were changed to reflect the heresies of Paul, and other writings that should have been kept in the New Testament were scrapped by these same leaders of the church that were now no longer following Islam by heresy. So, when the Qu'ran speaks of the people of the Book as a reference to Christians, "the book" the Qu'ran is referring to is the original message of Jesus that should have been written down and that part of New Testament which was altered and scrapped by later leaders in the church. Of course it is recognized that some of the New Testament is still good and correct, but that trying to determine which parts are good and which parts are not is impossible without the original to compare it to, the best way to tell today is to compare it to the teachings of the Qu'ran. That which does not agree is bad. That which agrees is good. And that which is still undetermined is undeterminable and thus not trustworthy. The people of the book only had this book until the time of the Qu'ran, so they are given grace to submit as best as they could until a more perfect revelation is made available to them. Once they have this true message shared with them they are then accountable to how they receive it, and they need to turn away from that which has been corrupted. This latter concept when applied not to people, but to books would be reason enough for those that do outlaw the Bible to outlaw it as somethng which is haraam and harmful to those who might be misled from Allah by its false teachings.

Now, we will let the Muslim members of this board correct any concepts which I may have stated in error. Then if I have properly understood your question you will have your answer.

Thank you, Grace Seeker. I now have a much better understanding of the Muslim perspective. Unless GS has missed something, my question has been answered. Peace.

[جوري]

My experience with this is not only what is on that website. Enough said. Peace.

I can't imagine what the issue is? People go to SA either for pilgrimage or for a short business trip!... what business does anyone have acting as a missionary and handing out bibles there? Do you expect a Muslim Cleric to walk into the Vatican with the Quran converting people? SA houses the two holy cities... It is highly regulated even for Muslims!

peace!

[don532]

I can't imagine what the issue is? People go to SA either for pilgrimage or for a short business trip!... what business does anyone have acting as a missionary and handing out bibles there? Do you expect a Muslim Cleric to walk into the Vatican with the Quran converting people? SA houses the two holy cities... It is highly regulated even for Muslims!

peace!

Please. With all due respect. I didn't say anything about handing out Bibles. I didn't say anything about missionary work. I didn't say anything about Muslim Clerics and the Vatican or converting anyone. I only wanted to know what the logic was behind why a book called a book of enlightenment in the Koran would be illegal to carry into a Muslim country.

It seems the answer as for Saudi Arabia is that the customs rules at the border, and the practices inside the country don't agree. I can accept that if that's the answer. I am not trying to be critical or disrespectful of Islam or Saudi Arabia.

Peace.

[NoName55]

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

Thank you.

hello

I own 9 + No one stopped me from buying any.

If they did ban it,they could harm people by not letting them see 100s of vesion of the same Book no 2 have the same number of books in them or exact same translations. (some books even have extra chapters and verses added while others have them missing.

I have in my possession 9 different versions including king James, Good news, Catholic version, 2 Gideon offerings and a few others. (+ dozens in eBook formats)

edit:

A Question Relating to the Bible being changed

besides you have revived a dead discussion (its been disscussed/closed)

peace

[Grace Seeker]

hello

I own 9 + No one stopped me from buying any.


peace

:sl: What country do you live in?

[wilberhum]

Do you expect a Muslim Cleric to walk into the Vatican with the Quran converting people?

Within Vatican City, no legal authority will stop you. But then you know that.

[don532]

hello

besides you have revived a dead discussion (its been disscussed/closed)

peace

My search of the site did not show me a thread on this specifically. Perhaps my search was flawed. I thought it would be easy to answer. I guess not.

Peace

[NoName55]

double post

[NoName55]

My search of the site did not show me a thread on this specifically. Perhaps my search was flawed. I thought it would be easy to answer. I guess not.

Peace

Greeting

I have edited my original post

henceforth I'll try to keep out

edit:
Title of thread says:
A Question Relating to the Bible being changed
subject contains more than 1 question including "why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries"

[don532]

{79}[/RIGHT]
[Pickthal 2:79] Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

Greetings. I'm trying to understand, not be critical. Can someone explain to me how the above says the writers of the Scriptures before 622AD changed them? What this says to me is woe unto someone that writes Scripture, says it's from Allah so that they may make money from it. Peace.

[Hemoo]

we muslims mainly know that the old and new testaments are altered when we compare their texts to the texts of the Quran and Sunna...

its like knowing the true thing then when somthing comes that contradict with it then you know that its wrong and that its not the real revelation of ALLAH

i can give you some examples later if you want ...

[NoName55]

Different Versions of the Bible
After settling in, we all began to gather around the kitchen table after dinner every night to discuss religion. My father would bring his King James Version of the Bible, I would bring out my Revised Standard Version of the Bible, my wife had another version of the Bible (maybe something like Jimmy Swaggart’s Good News for Modern Man. The priest of course, had the Catholic Bible which has 7 more books in it that the Protestant Bible. So we spent more time talking about which Bible was the right one or the most correct one, than we did trying to convince Mohamed about becoming a Christian.

Quran Has Only ONE Version - In Arabic - And Still Exists
At one point I recall asking him about the Quran and how many versions of it there were in the last 1,400 years. He told me that there was only ONE QURAN. And that it had never been changed. Yet he let me know that the Quran had been memorized by hundreds of thousands of people in its entirety, and were scattered about the earth in many different countries. Over the centuries since the Quran was revealed, millions have memorized it completely and have taught it to others who have memorized it completely, from cover to cover, letter perfect without mistakes. Today, over 9 million Muslims have memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover.

How Could This Be?
This did not seem possible to me. After all, the original languages of the Bible have all been dead languages for centuries, and the documents themselves have been lost in their originals for hundreds and thousands of years. So, how could it be that something like this could be so easy to preserve and to recite from cover to cover.

Priest Goes to the Mosque
Anyway, one day the priest asked the Mohamed if he might accompany him to the mosque to see what it was like there. They came back talking about their experience there and we could not wait to ask the priest what it was like and what all types of ceremonies they performed. He said they didn’t really do anything. They just came and prayed and left. I said: They left? Without any speeches or singing? “He said that was right.”

Priest Enters Islam!
A few more days went by and the Catholic priest asked Mohamed if he might join him again for a trip to the mosque which they did. But this time it was different. They did not come back for a very long time. It became dark and we worried that something might have happened to them. Finally they arrived and when they came in the door I immediately recognized Mohamed, but who was this alongside of him? Someone wearing a white robe and a white cap. Hold on a minute! It was the priest. I said to him: Pete? -- Did you become a ‘Moslem?’
He said that he had entered into Islam that very day. THE PRIEST BECAME A MUSLIM!! What next? (You’ll see).

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[Abu Zakariya]

Actually, neither the Qur'an or the Prophet (peace be upon him) instruct us to read the Bible.

Because of its corruption, we are forbidden to read it for the purpose of seeking guidance. Rather, if something from the Bible is related to us which doesn't go against the Qur'an nor does it confirm what is found in the Qur'an, we should remain neutral to that piece of information.

[don532]

we muslims mainly know that the old and new testaments are altered when we compare their texts to the texts of the Quran and Sunna...

its like knowing the true thing then when somthing comes that contradict with it then you know that its wrong and that its not the real revelation of ALLAH

i can give you some examples later if you want ...

Thank you. I think I understand that Muslims compare the Quran to the Bible, the Quran is considered the ultimate authority. My question is how does Pickthal 2:79 tell us that the Bible is corrupted? Please explain.

Peace.

[don532]

Actually, neither the Qur'an or the Prophet (peace be upon him) instruct us to read the Bible.

Because of its corruption, we are forbidden to read it for the purpose of seeking guidance. Rather, if something from the Bible is related to us which doesn't go against the Qur'an nor does it confirm what is found in the Qur'an, we should remain neutral to that piece of information.

I did not know that. I thought the Torat, Suhuf, Zabur and Injil were considered books of God in Islam and were menetioned specifically in the Qu'ran as sources of wisdom. Surely they are not to be ignored. I thought devout Muslims should read them, but always use the Qu'ran and the Hadith (I think I spelled that correctly) as the final authority.

[Hemoo]

we are ordered to believe in the original revelations sent by ALLAH (SW) of all previous books by their names like torah and injil and zabor.

not to believe in every thing that is in these books now.

because we know these books are now corupted and the coruption of them can be seen as a fact because of the many versions it have and the bad translations that have been done on this books.

besides their contradictions with each others and their contradictions with the authentic Quran and the authentic sayings of the prophet

besides you can easily see that every couple of years they release a new version of the bible with some modifications and they sell it and get a good profit every time they modify it..

so they sell what they have wrote by their hands and take the money to themselves ...

and islamic texts are complete we don't need any other text to be able to worship ALLAH and obey him ....

[Abu Zakariya]

I did not know that. I thought the Torat, Suhuf, Zabur and Injil were considered books of God in Islam and were menetioned specifically in the Qu'ran as sources of wisdom. Surely they are not to be ignored. I thought devout Muslims should read them, but always use the Qu'ran and the Hadith (I think I spelled that correctly) as the final authority.

These books are from God and are indeed sources of wisdom. But where are these books today? They aren't here. All we got is the Bible, which may have some parts of these original books in it, but the Bible doesn't contain the original Torah, the Suhuf of Ibrahim, the Zabur and Injil. Therefore, to read the Bible seeking guidance is forbidden because everything in the Bible isn't true. When it comes to the information found within the Bible, we confirm what the Islamic sources confirm, we deny what the Islamic sources deny and we are neutral to everything else.

[don532]

we are ordered to believe in the original revelations sent by ALLAH (SW) of all previous books by their names like torah and injil and zabor.

not to believe in every thing that is in these books now.

because we know these books are now corupted and the coruption of them can be seen as a fact because of the many versions it have and the bad translations that have been done on this books.

besides their contradictions with each others and their contradictions with the authentic Quran and the authentic sayings of the prophet

besides you can easily see that every couple of years they release a new version of the bible with some modifications and they sell it and get a good profit every time they modify it..

so they sell what they have wrote by their hands and take the money to themselves ...

and islamic texts are complete we don't need any other text to be able to worship ALLAH and obey him ....

Thank you for that reply. Once again, I am trying to learn and not be critical of Islam. I am starting to understand more. Please indulge me with a few more questions.

The original revelations of the torah, injil and zabor.....muslims are ordered to believe in those original revelations correct?
Ordered by whom?
Can their original revelations be known? If they are now corrupt, isn't it really only the Quran and other Islamic writings Muslims can believe in?

Thank you once again.
Peace.

[don532]

I think Abu Zakariya answered most of my question. One exception....from where or whom came the order to believe in the original revelations of these books?

Thank you once again for your patience.

[NoName55]

.............................

The original revelations of the torah, injil and zabor.....muslims are ordered to believe in those original revelations correct?
Ordered by whom? ........................
Peace.

Some people are far to clever for their own good ..., .... they just keep on and ... what languages did the Holy Prophets speeak? English?

show me just 2 So called Chritians who can quote chapter and verse (exactly same) from those Books


How many of you have memorized them in their original language, so that when a fraudster tries to alter 1 jot 1 iota will be found out at very first reading?

[don532]

Some people are far to clever for their own good ..., .... they just keep on and ... what languages did the Holy Prophets speeak? English?

either show me just 2 So called Chritians who can quote chapter and verse (exactly same) from those Books,

How many of you have memorized them in their original language, so that when a fraudster tries to alter 1 jot 1 iota will be found out at very first reading?

I know the Holy Prophets didn't speak English. And no, Christians don't generally memorize the whole Bible.

I am trying to learn. Surely you can answer a simple question and not attack the questioner. You don't make converts by attacking them.

If you think I am just doing this to try to be clever, you are wrong. I do not apologize for my desire to learn about Islam. Surely we can learn about each other's beliefs without resorting to insults.

Peace.

[Umar001]

Oh my goodness, I can't believe how a simple thread can end up turning into 'I challange you to do this and so forth'


Don, out of curiosity, do you know the methods of understanding the Qu'ran?

[don532]

Of course I do not understand the methods of understanding the Quran. What are they?

[NoName55]

I know the Holy Prophets didn't speak English. And no, Christians don't generally memorize the whole Bible.

I am trying to learn. Surely you can answer a simple question and not attack the questioner. You don't make converts by attacking them.

If you think I am just doing this to try to be clever, you are wrong. I do not apologize for my desire to learn about Islam. Surely we can learn about each other's beliefs without resorting to insults.

Peace.

you dont know when to quit!

Same question is answered for you a number of times, yet you keep coming up with same thing "believe in books because ..." To me it looked like an innocent query the first time, 2nd time I thought it was a misunderstanding but all the subsequennt repititions and now playing the innocent martyr betray something else to me

[don532]

you dont know when to quit!

Same question is answered for you a number of times, yet you keep coming up with same thing "believe in books because ..." To me it looked like an innocent query the first time, 2nd time I thought it was a misunderstanding but all the subsequennt repititions and now playing the innocent martyr betray something else to me

I apologize for bothering you. I truly thought in my specific questioning I was not repeating myself. Perhaps you all are right. I just don't get it.

[Abu Zakariya]

don

It is ordered by God to believe in these previous Scriptures.
And yes, because these Scriptures have been corrupted over time, we can only fully believe in the Qur'an and other Islamic sources.

[Hemoo]

well i have seen your last post mr. don532 and i apologize for you that my brother in islam has attaked you.

and i am also so happy that you really want to learn and know the truth and i ask my and your creator to guide all of us to what pleases him almighty

The order to believe in those original books came from ALLAH as its said in the Quran and also as said in the phrophet's saying

here is what the Quran said (three translation):

002.285
YUSUFALI: The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
PICKTHAL: The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
SHAKIR: The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.


and the hadith : in sahih bukhary

in the book of authentic sayings named Sahih bukhary in the chapter of belief (Faith)

Narrated By Abu Huraira : One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.

1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour..." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.

And I ask Allah Our Creator and Sustainer to guide every one to the straight path that leads to heavens and paradise
Amen

[Umar001]

Of course I do not understand the methods of understanding the Quran. What are they?

I'm writing an answer right now, but I will just break it down simply into sound bite size.

As a Christian, you believe the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truths, thus teach you wonders and so forth, people read the scripture and derive their understanding from their 'Teacher' the Holy Spirit.

In Islam, we have aslightly different way, we have the Qu'ran, the Qu'ran explains itself, like one verse might be explained by another, and also, a verse might be explained by the statement or actions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, or by the understanding of the Prophet's companions.

If that makes sense?

[Hemoo]

i am sorry the previous hadith is in sahih bukhary

here it is the right hadith in sahih muslim in the book of faith


It is narrated on the authority of Umar Ibn al-Khattab,said: One day we were sitting in the company of Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) when there appeared before us a man dressed in pure white clothes, his hair extraordinarily black. There were no signs of travel on him. None amongst us recognized him. At last he sat with the Apostle (peace be upon him) He knelt before him placed his palms on his thighs and said: Muhammad, inform me about al-Islam.
The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Al-Islam implies that you testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and you establish prayer, pay Zakat, observe the fast of Ramadan, and perform pilgrimage to the (House) if you are solvent enough (to bear the expense of) the journey. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (Umar Ibn al-Khattab) said: It amazed us that he would put the question and then he would himself verify the truth. He (the inquirer) said: Inform me about Iman (faith). He (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you affirm your faith in Allah, in His angels, in His Books, in His Apostles, in the Day of Judgment, and you affirm your faith in the Divine Decree about good and evil. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (the inquirer) again said: Inform me about al-Ihsan (performance of good deeds). He (the Holy Prophet) said: That you worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, for though you don't see Him, He, verily, sees you. He (the enquirer) again said: Inform me about the hour (of the Doom). He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: One who is asked knows no more than the one who is inquiring (about it). He (the inquirer) said: Tell me some of its indications. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and master, that you will find barefooted, destitute goat-herds vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings. He (the narrator, Umar Ibn al-Khattab) said: Then he (the inquirer) went on his way but I stayed with him (the Holy Prophet) for a long while. He then, said to me: Umar, do you know who this inquirer was? I replied: Allah and His Apostle knows best. He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: He was Gabriel (the angel). He came to you in order to instruct you in matters of religion.


salam

[NoName55]

I apologize for bothering you. I truly thought in my specific questioning I was not repeating myself. Perhaps you all are right. I just don't get it.

I have this habit of recording all my conversations, on websites or in person ( and I refer back to them). when I read

Greetings. Thank you for referring me to the article, which I read just now. There is much in the article that certainly differs from Christian beliefs, but one of the statements in there seems to sum up the answer to my question.

"If God Almighty loves the earth as much as you say, and He loves us so much, and He loved Jesus so much, then what difference does it make to Him which one of the things that He loves so much, that He is willing to destroy one of them for the other?

The whole idea is bizarre."

If one is to believe the Bible, which states the wages of sin is death, contains references to redemption from sin via sacrifice starting with the Jewish law, prophesies of the Messiah, and fulfillment of the law (which Jesus said he was on earth to do) in the killing of the sinless Jesus the perfect sacrifice, is changed and is corrupt and the ideas therein are bizarre, I see how that conclusion is drawn.

Thank you again for answering my question. Peace.

I truly thought the matter of Bible authenticity was resolved, and that we all knew where the other stood

[don532]

I'm writing an answer right now, but I will just break it down simply into sound bite size.

As a Christian, you believe the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truths, thus teach you wonders and so forth, people read the scripture and derive their understanding from their 'Teacher' the Holy Spirit.

In Islam, we have aslightly different way, we have the Qu'ran, the Qu'ran explains itself, like one verse might be explained by another, and also, a verse might be explained by the statement or actions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, or by the understanding of the Prophet's companions.

If that makes sense?

I think I understand that. Thank you for your patience.

[Umar001]

Greetings. I know I am showing my lack of knowledge on this subject, but I really would like to know the Muslim perspective on a couple of questions I have had for a long time.

Howdy, again, and welcome to the forum, lack of knowledge is something we all have, a characteristic that binds mankind, as Almighty God has told us that he brought us forth from our mother's wombs whilst we had no knowledge.

1. Why would the revelation given to Mohammad instruct Muslims to pay any attention to these texts, and even refer to them so highly, if they have been corrupted for hundreds of years at the time the Koran was written?

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

1. This is a question that many ask, alot of non Muslims who follow the Bible try to use this as evidence and so forth, but I will just ask you to provide us the verses if possible.

2. First we gotta find if God is telling Muslims to read the books of before and under what context.


Moving on, Grace your answer was pretty good, whilst I feel some parts might need to be clarified to avoid confusion, one part being:

So, when the Qu'ran speaks of the people of the Book as a reference to Christians, "the book" the Qu'ran is referring to is the original message of Jesus that should have been written down and that part of New Testament which was altered and scrapped by later leaders in the church.

Noticed it yet?? The part stating 'the original message of Jesus that should have been..' The reason I highlight this is because I have yet to find anywhere which indicates that the message of Jesus should have been recored or should have been safeguarded. The importance of this is that most people will then ask, 'well if it should have been written down then isn't God powerful enough to do that?' Many Christians ask me that all the time. May seem like a small thing but I feel it avoids alot of confusion later on.


Regards, Eesa.

Greetings. I'm trying to understand, not be critical. Can someone explain to me how the above says the writers of the Scriptures before 622AD changed them? What this says to me is woe unto someone that writes Scripture, says it's from Allah so that they may make money from it. Peace.

Az-Zuhri said that `Ubadydullah bin `Abdullah narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,' so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn't the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.'' This Hadith was also collected by Al-Bukhari.

[don532]

I have this habit of recording all my conversations, on websites or in person ( and I refer back to them). when I read I truly thought the matter of Bible authenticity was resolved, and that we all knew where the other stood

I was asking some more specific questions about how the scriptures are treated in Islam and what the sources of those beliefs were. I was seeking more knowledge, and I guess perhaps I have asked enough questions for one day. I intend now to read the responses that are above this post those have so kindly taken the time to write.

Thank you and peace.

[don532]

Purest Ambrosia graciously showed me a link that is a website one can use to search the Qur'an. That along with what Al Habeshi and Hemoo have shared means I now have some reading to do. Thank you once again for sharing with me. I did find one very interesting verse right away.

Al-Baqarah 2:62:
Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Perhaps from a Muslim perspective, even though Christians may be ignorant of the real truth, in spite of ourselves we may be destined for salvation. Now to get along on this earth....

[Woodrow]

Hello Don,

Having been born and raised as a Christian for many years I know the frustrations you face with some of your questions.

I find it to be a very valid question to ask who has told us the Bible and the Torah have been changed over time.

Quite simply I believe we can agree that if it is true that the three books did originaly come from God(swt) the message should be identical in all threee.

If the original content of the Torah and stayed there would have been no reason for an additional meassage from Jesus(as), However, there was a need for the Christian Gospels to have been revealed. If those had remained unchanged there would have been no need for the Qur'an.

So in all simplisity since I have found the Qur'an to be the true Divine word of Allah(swt) it can only mean that the Torah and the Gospels are no longer fully what they originaly were.

There is much in the Qur'an that does agree with the Gospels and the Torah, so this shows us that they did at one time posses the Truth. however, since there are now some parts that are in disagreement with the Qur'an, it means somethings have changed.

It all comes down to if we accept the Qur'an as being the true word of Allah(swt). 40 years ago when I was still in my twenties I came to the conclusion that the gospels and Bible were not the true word of God(swt) and I left Christianity. I then began a long search. @ years ago I came to the full understanding that the Qur'an is the only true word of Allah(swt) and that is when I reverted to Islam. In my entire life I never had one person ever tell me to revert or ask me too. This was an independent choice I conciously made after 40 years of fighting against Islam and all monotheistic religion.

[don532]

Hello Don,

Having been born and raised as a Christian for many years I know the frustrations you face with some of your questions.

I find it to be a very valid question to ask who has told us the Bible and the Torah have been changed over time.

Quite simply I believe we can agree that if it is true that the three books did originaly come from God(swt) the message should be identical in all threee.

If the original content of the Torah and stayed there would have been no reason for an additional meassage from Jesus(as), However, there was a need for the Christian Gospels to have been revealed. If those had remained unchanged there would have been no need for the Qur'an.

So in all simplisity since I have found the Qur'an to be the true Divine word of Allah(swt) it can only mean that the Torah and the Gospels are no longer fully what they originaly were.

There is much in the Qur'an that does agree with the Gospels and the Torah, so this shows us that they did at one time posses the Truth. however, since there are now some parts that are in disagreement with the Qur'an, it means somethings have changed.

It all comes down to if we accept the Qur'an as being the true word of Allah(swt). 40 years ago when I was still in my twenties I came to the conclusion that the gospels and Bible were not the true word of God(swt) and I left Christianity. I then began a long search. @ years ago I came to the full understanding that the Qur'an is the only true word of Allah(swt) and that is when I reverted to Islam. In my entire life I never had one person ever tell me to revert or ask me too. This was an independent choice I conciously made after 40 years of fighting against Islam and all monotheistic religion.

Woodrow, your post is very much appreciated. If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree, definitely. I am in the process of learning about Islam and the Qur'an right now because all my life I have been fed and accepted the Christian view. I am now looking for myself and questioning perhaps to the point of testing the patience of some. I am going back now to do some more reading.

[Umar001]

Al-Baqarah 2:62:
Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The Verse there is speaking with regards to the Christians and Jews and Sabians who were good at their time, right now it is impossible for a Christian or a Jew or a Sabian to hear about Muhammad properly, understand his message then turn it down and then still go paradise.

For the Jews of Moses' time, peace be upon him, they are included in that verse, the Christians of Jesus' time, peace be upon him, are included in that verse, but now, in our time, another Messenger has been sent, and it is upto us to follow this Messenger, and those who have the opportunity and know about him, but they don't follow him, then they are not included in the verse.

And Allah knows best.

[Woodrow]

Woodrow, your post is very much appreciated. If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree, definitely. I am in the process of learning about Islam and the Qur'an right now because all my life I have been fed and accepted the Christian view. I am now looking for myself and questioning perhaps to the point of testing the patience of some. I am going back now to do some more reading.

Don you will find that Islam encourages us to search and to not accept on the basis of what others have told us. The final responsability falls upon each of us as individuals. We and we alone are responsible for learning what is true and what has been altered. Schollars in all all faiths have a duty to tell us what they perceive and why they perceive as they do, but it is up to us to read, learn and pray for guidance. We can can only be handed maps and guidance. But, because there are so many maps being handed out, we need to exam and see if the map will really get us to our destination.


May you be granted guidance in your search and may you always know that it is alright to ask questions. The only poor question is the one that is not asked.

[NoName55]

Woodrow, your post is very much appreciated. If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree, definitely. I am in the process of learning about Islam and the Qur'an right now because all my life I have been fed and accepted the Christian view. I am now looking for myself and questioning perhaps to the point of testing the patience of some. I am going back now to do some more reading.

no comment, just a note to self for posterity.

"If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree"

[Woodrow]

no comment, just a note to self for posterity.

"If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree"

Just a note to not take things out ot context. The message being given is that if the Bible and the torah do not agree with the Qur'an they have been changed.

we know the Qur'an is the Qur'an is the true word of God(swt), but non-Muslims do not know that. Until a non-Muslim comes to the understanding that the Qur'an is the true word they can not understand why we believe the Bible and the Torah have been Changed.

[don532]

The Verse there is speaking with regards to the Christians and Jews and Sabians who were good at their time, right now it is impossible for a Christian or a Jew or a Sabian to hear about Muhammad properly, understand his message then turn it down and then still go paradise.

For the Jews of Moses' time, peace be upon him, they are included in that verse, the Christians of Jesus' time, peace be upon him, are included in that verse, but now, in our time, another Messenger has been sent, and it is upto us to follow this Messenger, and those who have the opportunity and know about him, but they don't follow him, then they are not included in the verse.

And Allah knows best.

Thank you for clarifying. My curiosity gets the best of me and I must ask another question even though I thought I was done for today. From where do you get that understanding? I do not find such context in the surrounding verses. Is this one of those verses that is further explained by another verse in the Qur'an?

[Woodrow]

Thank you for clarifying. My curiosity gets the best of me and I must ask another question even though I thought I was done for today. From where do you get that understanding? I do not find such context in the surrounding verses. Is this one of those verses that is further explained by another verse in the Qur'an?

Don, one of the most difficult hings in trying to understand the Qur'an is to realizwe that you are using a translation. There are reasons why we do not consider translations to be the Qur'an. However, if you use several translations together you can get an approximation of the Arabic meanings.

I notce you mentioned Pickthall so I am assuming you are using his translation.

Here are a few ayyats from Surah 5 which may help clarify your question above.


Since you are using Pickthall I am going to use Yusuf Ali here, compare it with Pickthall and between both you should get a better feeling as to what is meant.



5:72. They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. S P C

5:73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. S P
5:74. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. S P
5:75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! S P C

5:76. Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." S P
5:77. Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way. S P C

5:78. Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses. S P C
5:79. Nor did they (usually) forbid one another the iniquities which they committed: evil indeed were the deeds which they did. S P C

5:80. Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide. S P
5:81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers. S P

5:82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. S P C
5:83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses. S P

5:84. "What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?" S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

[NoName55]

Thank you for clarifying. My curiosity gets the best of me and I must ask another question even though I thought I was done for today. From where do you get that understanding? I do not find such context in the surrounding verses. Is this one of those verses that is further explained by another verse in the Qur'an?

greetings,

if Not in surrounding verses then elswhere spread throughout.

a little something on understanding:> http://www.islamicboard.com/667647-post4.html

Tafsir (Explanation):> http://www.qtafsir.com/

here is a kinda content list:> http://www.islamicboard.com/680790-post36.html

A gatway to huge lists of links to works of formerly Christian Brothers:> http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage-user10595.html


http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/tafsirkathir.chm

[don532]

Thank you. I see now. I mentioned the Pickthall because it was quoted to me in a response. The Qur'an I am reading says on the spine it is a translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

Thank you so much for answering my question. I think I understand now. I'm sure I will have more questions. Please forgive me in advance if I wear out anyone's patience.

I will now go look at the link's NoName took the time to provide.

Thank you once again.

[don532]

NoName the glossary is phenomenal. Thank you!

He gave His only unique son....is that the correct translation?

[NoName55]

NoName the glossary is phenomenal. Thank you!

He gave His only unique son....is that the correct translation?

You are most welcome, Brother of mine (in Adam)

Son should be Servant (remember the explanation in article by Br. Estes)

[Hemoo]

i found a hadith that shows that jews used to change their books and to judge against what came in torah

the hadith is in authintic Hadith book of "SAHIH MUSLIM" in chapter "Punishments Prescribed By Islam"

here it is

Al-Bara' b. 'Azib reported: There happened to pass by Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) a Jew blackened and lashed. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called them (the Jews) and said: Is this the punishment that you find in your Book (Torah) as a prescribed punishment for adultery? They said: Yes. He (the Holy Prophet) called one of the scholars amongst them and said: I ask you in the name of Allah Who sent down the Torah on Moses if that is the prescribed punishment for adultery that you find in your Book. He said: No. Had you not asked me in the name of Allah, I would not have given you this information. We find stoning to death (as punishment prescribed in the Torah). But this (crime) became quite common amongst our aristocratic class. So when we caught hold of any rich person (indulging in this offence) we spared him, but when we caught hold of a helpless person we imposed the prescribed punishment upon him. We then said: Let us agree (on a punishment) which we can inflict both upon the rich and the poor. So We decided to blacken the face with coal and flog as a substitute punishment for stoning. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: O Allah, I am the first to revive Thy command when they had made it dead. He then commanded and he (the offender) was stoned to death. Allah, the Majestic and Glorious, sent down (this verse): "O Messenger, (the behaviour of) those who vie with one another in denying the truth should not grieve you..." up to "is vouchsafed unto you, accept it" (v. 41)2176 It was said (by the Jews): Go to Muhammad; it he commands you to blacken the face and award flogging (as punishment for adultery), then accept it, but it he gives verdict for stoning, then avoid it. It was (then) that Allah, the Majestic and Great, sent down (these verses): "And they who do not judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed are, indeed, deniers of the truth" (v. 44); "And they who do not judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed-they, they indeed are the wrongdoers" (v. 45); "And they who do not judge in accordance with what God has revealed-they are the iniquitous (v. 47). (All these verses) were revealed in connection with the non-believers.

so this is an example of the alteration that jews used to do in their books



i hope this informations are usefull


salam

[don532]

I am making progress. The tools shared with me here are making looking for truth and answers to my questions much easier.
Having been a Christian most of my life, I have been taught reasoning why Islam cannot be true. Most of that reasoning concludes some of the characteristics of Islam are ridiculous and cannot be true. I'm sure that for those that come from a Muslim background, some of the characteristics of Christianity seem ridiculous and cannot be true.
I cannot speak for those of a Muslim background that have seriously read the Bible, but for me of a Christian background, after having spent time in the Qur'an, I have learned Islam is not ridiculous. It cannot be dismissed out of hand, with just a couple of quick statements. Though not a convert, this certainly has taught me a great level of respect for Islam and its followers.

In my reading, I see reference to a published list of 101 contradictions in the Bible, and a list of 101 Christian refutations. I am now going to find this information and start reading again.
If I have questions on other subjects (I am sure I will), I will ask in a thread properly titled. There are many concepts in the Qur'an that are unfamiliar to me. Those will surely pique my curiosity.
Thank you all who have shared with me. I appreciate your patience.

[queenmuslimah]

mashallah may allah guide u to the right path inshallah......remember we are all behind u 100%......:coolious:

[NoName55]

@don532 are you talking about these at -www.kronosofia.dk/frames/side/biblioteket/101.html
or something else?

[don532]

@don532 are you talking about these at -www.kronosofia.dk/frames/side/biblioteket/101.html
or something else?

I am not sure. I was reading in another post about the 101 contradictions. Is there more than one such list of contradictions?

[Umar001]

How will you benefit from those threads, am just curious?

[don532]

How will you benefit from those threads, am just curious?

I have been raised a Christian all my life. If there are contradictions in what I have believed, I want to know what they are.

[Umar001]

I have been raised a Christian all my life. If there are contradictions in what I have believed, I want to know what they are.

Well, if you'd like I can talk to you about it, and then you look into it yourself. I've been through it, so maybe that'd help.

But that'd be in another thread.

[Grace Seeker]

Just a note to not take things out ot context. The message being given is that if the Bible and the torah do not agree with the Qur'an they have been changed.

There is another point of view. That one is that if the Bible and the Torah (that bit is redundant as the whole of the written Torah is one portion of the Bible, though I guess that Jews do speak of the Oral Torah) do not agree with the Qu'ran then the Qu'ran has been fabricated. Which one of those two views ohe holds is determined by faith. Indeed, an atheist might hold that first the Bible was fabricated and then the Qu'ran was a subsequent fabrication influenced in part by the Bible. That opinion would also be based on one's particular faith perspective. All supposed "proofs" that I have ever seen articulated are rooted in the subjective faith (or lack thereof) of the one presenting them.

we know the Qur'an is the Qur'an is the true word of God(swt), but non-Muslims do not know that. Until a non-Muslim comes to the understanding that the Qur'an is the true word they can not understand why we believe the Bible and the Torah have been Changed.

Again, what you "know" is a subjective expression of faith. For I also "know" that the Bible is a trustworthy revelation of God's self to humanity, and contains all that is necessary for knowledge of salvation and living a faithful life. Asl long as a Muslim is of the understanding that the Qu'ran is the true word, they cannot understand the truth which is revealed in the Bible for they are blinded to it.

I expect you to disgree with my statement, but I hope you recognize that except for our personal prefrence for the authority of one faith over the other, that both statements would have equal credence to someone not already party to either of our faiths.

[Woodrow]

There is another point of view. That one is that if the Bible and the Torah (that bit is redundant as the whole of the written Torah is one portion of the Bible, though I guess that Jews do speak of the Oral Torah) do not agree with the Qu'ran then the Qu'ran has been fabricated. Which one of those two views ohe holds is determined by faith. Indeed, an atheist might hold that first the Bible was fabricated and then the Qu'ran was a subsequent fabrication influenced in part by the Bible. That opinion would also be based on one's particular faith perspective. All supposed "proofs" that I have ever seen articulated are rooted in the subjective faith (or lack thereof) of the one presenting them.




Again, what you "know" is a subjective expression of faith. For I also "know" that the Bible is a trustworthy revelation of God's self to humanity, and contains all that is necessary for knowledge of salvation and living a faithful life. Asl long as a Muslim is of the understanding that the Qu'ran is the true word, they cannot understand the truth which is revealed in the Bible for they are blinded to it.

I expect you to disgree with my statement, but I hope you recognize that except for our personal prefrence for the authority of one faith over the other, that both statements would have equal credence to someone not already party to either of our faiths.

No reason to disagree over the point that we disagree.

It is really quite simple You are certain you are correct, I am certain I am correct and the guy hiding behind the curtain is certain both of us are mistaken.

[MustafaMc]

If I am not mistaken, the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God and calls them the word of God, light and guidance, and illumination.

Don, you are in fact mistaken on every point of this sentence. I have read the Quran more than once and I have never read such an ayat (verse).

I think I am correct in assuming Muslims believe the scriptures were corrupted before the council of Nicea.

Yes, we believe that neither the Old nor the New Testament are the authentic message revealed to Prophet Moses, David, or Jesus (peace upon them).

1. Why would the revelation given to Mohammad instruct Muslims to pay any attention to these texts, and even refer to them so highly, if they have been corrupted for hundreds of years at the time the Koran was written?

The Quran does not speak highly of the Bible, rather it speaks highly of the Prophets and the original messages they brought. The Quran sternly warns those who attribute words to Allah that are in fact their own.

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

I am not aware of the Bible being forbidden in a Muslim country. This is quite different however from forbidding the active dispersal of heresy (Christian evangelism) and the widespread dispersal of free Bibles (Gideons) in a Muslim country.

[don532]

Greetings. I realize now I had much of this concept wrong. Here is some of what I was referring to.

5:44 It was We who revealed the Law (to Musa): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's Will, by the Rabbis and the Doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

3:84 Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Musa, 'Isa, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."


4:136 O ye who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

I suppose one could believe in the true books as revealed before any corruption, and that would have nothing to do with reading the Torah, Psalms and Injeel that exist today.

My comment about Bibles not being allowed in some Muslim countries is based on my, and others travel experience with customs. We have been told going into certain areas, Saudi Arabia being one, not to bring a bible. I have tried to find the customs rules that were quoted at the time, but I cannot.

Thank you for your insight. Peace.

[MustafaMc]

I have been raised a Christian all my life. If there are contradictions in what I have believed, I want to know what they are.

Don, Ahmed Deedat has books and videos that point out errors and contradictions in the Bible much better than I can. For example this link may be helpful. http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/frameset.asp

Can anyone explain Hebrews 7:1-3? "This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High (Allah, by my interpretation). He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kiings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also "king of Salem" means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever." According to my limited knowledge the only ones to have no mother or father are Adam and Eve as they were created beings. Even though Jesus had no father, he had a mother. We believe that he also was a created being since he was not conceived in the natural way. Quran 19:35-36 "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Transcendent is He! When He determines a matter, He only says to it: “Be!” and it is. (And Jesus had declared): “Assuredly Allah is my Lord and your Lord. Therefore serve Him. That is the Straight Path.” and Quran 3:59 – "The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said to him: “Be!” and he was."

The fundamental article of Islamic faith can be summarized in Quran 112:1-4, "Say: He Allah, is One! Allah, the eternally Besought! He has not begotten, nor been begotten, and equal to Him there is none."

[MustafaMc]

Don, your knowledge and Quaranic quotes are correct as is your conclusion.

I suppose one could believe in the true books as revealed before any corruption, and that would have nothing to do with reading the Torah, Psalms and Injeel that exist today.

However, this is different from your original (erroneous) statement that the Quran instructs Muslims to read the previous scriptures. I read the Bible, not for instruction, but for the knowledge to be able to converse with Christians. For example, when I recently read Galatians chapters 1 and 2, I was able to gain some understanding of how Christians were led astray by Paul with a doctrine different from what Jesus (pbuh) taught and different from what the disciples (e.g. Peter) practiced.

The Quran is not the "inspired Word of God" written by several men in their own words or in letters to churches, but rather it is the "revealed Word of Allah". Muslims believe that every word of the Quran is the literal Word of Allah that was revealed through the Angel Jibrael (Gabriel) to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and spoken in the Arabic language. The Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years. It was written down and memorized verbatim as it was revealed - not 40 to 100 years latter. During this period of revelation, to ensure accuracy Jibrael reviewed yearly with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the entire portion that had been revealed up to the month of fasting (Ramaddan). All Muslims recite portions of the Quran in their 5 daily prayers using the original Arabic language. For example, all Muslims (from Pakistan, Malaysia, Morocco, Iran, Saudi Arabia, USA, etc) recite the same Arabic words of Quran 1:1-7 in every repitition of each prayer.

Which of Jesus' (pbuh) actual words are contained in the Bible exactly as he spoke them? Perhaps you would claim part of Matthew 27:46. "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" I do not believe that Jesus would speak in such terms to Allah, but if he did, then "my God" is "his God" that he also prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane. Also, which version of "the Lord's Prayer", Matthew 6:9-13 or Luke 11:2-4, are the actual words spoken by Jesus (pbuh).

Regarding:

My comment about Bibles not being allowed in some Muslim countries is based on my, and others travel experience with customs. We have been told going into certain areas, Saudi Arabia being one, not to bring a bible. I have tried to find the customs rules that were quoted at the time, but I cannot.

I don't deny your experience, but perhaps you are not telling the whole story either. Were you actively proselyting and distributing Gideon Bibles? If so, I can understand the rules you encountered. Islamic leaders have a responsibility for the people under their authority. This can be summed up in encouraging the good and forbidding the evil. Teaching others that Jesus (pbuh) is the Son of God is blasphemous to Muslims. Quran 19:88–93 "They say: “ The All-Merciful has begotten a son!” Indeed you have put forth a monstrous falsehood. At which the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in ruins. That they should ascribe unto the All-Merciful a son. It does not behove (the majesty) of the All-Merciful that He should adopt a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a slave."

[don532]

Regarding:
I don't deny your experience, but perhaps you are not telling the whole story either. Were you actively proselyting and distributing Gideon Bibles? If so, I can understand the rules you encountered. Islamic leaders have a responsibility for the people under their authority. "[/I]

That is not the case. I am not a missionary. I travel internationally on business. I certainly don't run around with a briefcase full of Gideon Bibles.

[don532]

Don, Ahmed Deedat has books and videos that point out errors and contradictions in the Bible much better than I can. For example this link may be helpful. http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/frameset.asp

Can anyone explain Hebrews 7:1-3? "This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High (Allah, by my interpretation). He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kiings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also "king of Salem" means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever." According to my limited knowledge the only ones to have no mother or father are Adam and Eve as they were created beings. Even though Jesus had no father, he had a mother. We believe that he also was a created being since he was not conceived in the natural way. Quran 19:35-36 "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Transcendent is He! When He determines a matter, He only says to it: “Be!” and it is. (And Jesus had declared): “Assuredly Allah is my Lord and your Lord. Therefore serve Him. That is the Straight Path.” and Quran 3:59 – "The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said to him: “Be!” and he was."

The fundamental article of Islamic faith can be summarized in Quran 112:1-4, "Say: He Allah, is One! Allah, the eternally Besought! He has not begotten, nor been begotten, and equal to Him there is none."

Greetings. I will share my perspective on that question, but I'm not here to make converts.

Because his name has a meaning he had no lineage does not mean the Bible is saying the man had no lineage physically.

From the Christian perspective, God made man in his own image, so the idea of a Son is not completely foreign.
From the Muslim perspective, the Bible is corrupt so the Qur'an is held as the truth. The Qur'an directly refutes the idea God would lower himself to have a son, so it can't be true.
As for the words of Jesus (pbuh), the Christian perspective is of course they are contained in the Bible. From the Muslim perspective, the Bible is corrupt so the only words a Muslim would believe Jesus said are in the Qur'an.

Peace.

[- Qatada -]

Hey don. :)


But even if we look in the history of mankind, when all the previous prophets came - none of them said that they are God or God's begotten son, they all said that our God is One, and that one shouldn't associate partners with Him in worship. This is what all the prophets called to, so why would it be that all of a sudden another Messenger of God comes, yet people start claiming that he is God incarnate? When infact none of the earlier prophets claimed that?

[don532]

Hey don. :)


But even if we look in the history of mankind, when all the previous prophets came - none of them said that they are God or God's begotten son, they all said that our God is One, and that one shouldn't associate partners with Him in worship. This is what all the prophets called to, so why would it be that all of a sudden another Messenger of God comes, yet people start claiming that he is God incarnate? When infact none of the earlier prophets claimed that?

Greetings.
That's one of the very pivotal questions, isn't it?
Christians believe the coming of God's begotten son was prophesied and He is the fulfillment of the old law, the perfect sacrifice; giving Christians freedom in His grace and salvation.
Muslims believe the Bible to be corrupt and the idea of associating any partner to God to be blasphemy.
Contradictions or difficulties in the Bible are pointed out by some, and explained by others.
Contradictions or difficulties in the Qur'an are pointed out by some and explained by others.
Neither seems to comprehend the others' perspective.
Perhaps one must choose.

Peace.

[- Qatada -]

Does it state in the Tanakh that it would occur? :) What was it prophecised in, and could you find the source and evidences please? Because we don't believe that God begets children as He only does what befits His Majesty, and could you clarify what the previous prophets called to according to the christianity perspective?


Thanks.

[don532]

Does it state in the Tanakh that it would occur? :) What was it prophecised in, and could you find the source and evidences please? Because we don't believe that God begets children as He only does what befits His Majesty, and could you clarify what the previous prophets called to according to the christianity perspective?


Thanks.

I am referring to the Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. There are many, so below is a link to some of them. They occur in Isaiah, Jeremiah, the Psalms, Genesis and other books in the Old Testament.

To answer your last question, as you can probably tell, I am not a great philosopher or student of the Bible or Qur'an, but I always thought the prophets were sent to speak for God on earth.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.co...ophecies.shtml

Peace.

[MustafaMc]

That is not the case. I am not a missionary. I travel internationally on business. I certainly don't run around with a briefcase full of Gideon Bibles.

I stand corrected. I have heard about missionary activities associated with distribution of humanitarian aid and efforts to distribute free Bibles in Muslim countries. I now understand that your perspective is not from this angle.

[MustafaMc]

As for the words of Jesus (pbuh), the Christian perspective is of course they are contained in the Bible.

What portion of the New Testament, or even for that matter the 4 gospels, are the literal words of Jesus (pbuh) such that there is 100% agreement between specific quotations in the different gospels? What about the response to Peter's "confession" of Jesus being the "Christ" in Matthew 16:17-19 and Luke 9:21-27? Which of these quotes did Jesus actually say?

From the Muslim perspective, the Bible is corrupt so the only words a Muslim would believe Jesus said are in the Qur'an.

No, I disagree. The only words in the Bible that a Muslim would believe are the ones that are in agreement with the Quran. A few verses that I agree with are: Mark 12:28-29 - “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” - “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” and Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ ”

[don532]

What portion of the New Testament, or even for that matter the 4 gospels, are the literal words of Jesus (pbuh) such that there is 100% agreement between specific quotations in the different gospels? What about the response to Peter's "confession" of Jesus being the "Christ" in Matthew 16:17-19 and Luke 9:21-27? Which of these quotes did Jesus actually say?

No, I disagree. The only words in the Bible that a Muslim would believe are the ones that are in agreement with the Quran. A few verses that I agree with are: Mark 12:28-29 - “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” - “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” and Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ ”

It is my turn to stand corrected. I misstated the Muslim perspective that what agrees in the Bible with the Qur'an would be considered true. Certainly you are correct. My mistake.

As to the difference in the accounts between Matthew and Luke, yes the accounts differ in their exact words as recorded by different authors. Luke omits the first part that was included in Matthew. Now I am not a great philosopher or student of either the Bible or the Qur'an, but I would say the Christian belief is that the message is the same. Christians would not consider these two passages contradictory, but different accounts of the same event. Just as in the Qur'an, some verses are explained by others, Christians believe in the harmony of the Bible, that the message is woven throughout it from the messianic prophecies all the way to Revelation. So when I referred to the words of Jesus, I in no way meant to imply his exact words as if I believed the Bible was straight from the mouth of Jesus to the printed page.

The Muslim perspective, as I understand it, is that the books that make up the Bible were written as stand alone documents and cannot be interpreted as a whole. If I also understand correctly, the Muslim perspective of the Qur'an is that it is the literal words of God as given to Muhammad(pbuh).

Thank you and peace.

[MustafaMc]

So when I referred to the words of Jesus, I in no way meant to imply his exact words as if I believed the Bible was straight from the mouth of Jesus to the printed page.

The Muslim perspective, as I understand it, is that the books that make up the Bible were written as stand alone documents and cannot be interpreted as a whole. If I also understand correctly, the Muslim perspective of the Qur'an is that it is the literal words of God as given to Muhammad(pbuh).

You spoke well. This is exactly the point I was trying to make.

What about the letters to the early churches from Paul? Where did he get the "gospel" that he defended so staunchly in Galations 1:6-9? Did he get it first hand from following, along with the disciples, Jesus during his time on earth? Did he get it second hand from the disciples? No, according to the Bible, he got it by direct revelation from Jesus (pbuh) after his ascension (Gal. 1:12) or from God (Gal. 1:15-17). Does this direct revelation make him the defacto prophet to the Gentiles (Gal 2:8) of the "gospel" that Jesus (pbuh) was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for the sins of the world.

Quoting a letter that I sent to a TV minister: "I recently had the pleasure of watching one of your TV programs where you were talking about Paul as the founder of the “gospel” of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) death for our sins, burial and resurrection. I was amazed to hear that you were correctly stating that Jesus (pbuh) did not teach this doctrine as he had not yet died nor did Peter properly understand it as his conflicts with Paul in Galatians demonstrated."

[don532]

You spoke well. This is exactly the point I was trying to make.

What about the letters to the early churches from Paul? Where did he get the "gospel" that he defended so staunchly in Galations 1:6-9? Did he get it first hand from following, along with the disciples, Jesus during his time on earth? Did he get it second hand from the disciples? No, according to the Bible, he got it by direct revelation from Jesus (pbuh) after his ascension (Gal. 1:12) or from God (Gal. 1:15-17). Does this direct revelation make him the defacto prophet to the Gentiles (Gal 2:8) of the "gospel" that Jesus (pbuh) was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for the sins of the world.

Quoting a letter that I sent to a TV minister: "I recently had the pleasure of watching one of your TV programs where you were talking about Paul as the founder of the “gospel” of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) death for our sins, burial and resurrection. I was amazed to hear that you were correctly stating that Jesus (pbuh) did not teach this doctrine as he had not yet died nor did Peter properly understand it as his conflicts with Paul in Galatians demonstrated."

I think the Christian perspective of Paul's message is the same as the Christian perspective on Jesus'(pbuh) message, which was for all nations. John 8:12 says Jesus(pbuh) was the Light of the world. Matthew 28:19 says to go make disciples of all nations. Luke 24:46 and 47 says repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached to all nations starting with Jerusalem. So even though Paul travelled extensively on journeys to proclaim the gospel, so did others.

I would then disagree with the TV preacher that Paul was the founder of the gospel. The gospel seems to have been preached before Jesus'(pbuh) death. I would say further that the death, burial and resurrection was prophesied in the Old Testament as I have posted a link in another forum to some of these messianic prophecies. Also Matthew 16:21 says Jesus(pbuh) began to show his disciples he must go to Jerusalem to suffer many things, be killed and be raised on the third day.

During the last supper, the account of Luke in chapter 22, says Jesus(pbuh) took the cup and said it was the new covenenant - Christians take that to mean the old law of sacrifice has passed away. The account of Matthew in chapter 26 says Jesus(pbuh) took the cup and told the disciples it was the blood of the covenant for the forgiveness of sins.

That, I believe is representative of the Christian perspective. I am not a scholar, so I may have left something out. One moral of the story is you can't believe everything you hear on TV....but I think you probably know that already. I have wanted to write some TV preachers too, after hearing some of the trash that is broadcast. I am glad you did so. Perhaps your guidance will help him.

Good discussion. Thank you and peace.

[Grace Seeker]

Which of Jesus' (pbuh) actual words are contained in the Bible exactly as he spoke them? Perhaps you would claim part of Matthew 27:46. "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" I do not believe that Jesus would speak in such terms to Allah, but if he did, then "my God" is "his God" that he also prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane. Also, which version of "the Lord's Prayer", Matthew 6:9-13 or Luke 11:2-4, are the actual words spoken by Jesus (pbuh).

Just a point of information, the phrase Jesus spoke, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" is a quote from a Psalm. It is a matter of interpretation whether or not Jesus actually felt forsaken, or was simply quoting from this Psalm for another purpose.

Secondly from the point of view of the Qur'an, it would not have been Jesus speaking those words, as they were spoken from the cross, which Muslims don't believe Jesus was ever on.

The other items of your post I would really like to discuss more fully, but alas they reliability (or lack there of) of the Qur'an is not pertinent to this thread.

[MustafaMc]

Secondly from the point of view of the Qur'an, it would not have been Jesus speaking those words, as they were spoken from the cross, which Muslims don't believe Jesus was ever on.

You spoke correctly. I was just making a point about the few literal (Aramaic I think) words that Jesus (pbuh) is quoted as having said in the gospels.

The other items of your post I would really like to discuss more fully, but alas they reliability (or lack there of) of the Qur'an is not pertinent to this thread.

Perhaps, you would like to respond to some of the earlier points about whether the Bible is Word of God, or not.

[Grace Seeker]

You spoke correctly. I was just making a point about the few literal (Aramaic I think) words that Jesus (pbuh) is quoted as having said in the gospels.

Hebrew.

Perhaps, you would like to respond to some of the earlier points about whether the Bible is Word of God, or not.

Jesus is the Word. It is by the Word of God, that God spoke and all creation came into being. The Bible is a record of the Word. Thus the Word of God is inerrant, but the Bible is a collection of human writings -- under divine inspiration I submit, but still human and thus prone to the possibility of error to the degree that the writer was a good recorder (or was not a good recorder) of what was revealed to him. Given different authors in different situations writing over an extended period of time, it would not be surprising to find some sections to be a better record of God's revelation than others.

[Umar001]

I think the Muslim members should becareful in being to quick to affirm or reject.

If we have a Biblical Text that agrees with the Qu'ran then this does not mean that the Biblical Text is true. What it means is that it might be true.

The process that allowed some mistakes to enter the Biblical Writing is one that doesn't just dissapear when a part of the text agrees with the Qu'ran. To say such would be illogical and very bias.

Rather if a text agrees with the Qu'ran then we say that might be or might not be, we cannot be sure, rather the only reason we are sure that Jesus did not say 'Woman, what have I to do with thee?' is because this would contradict the nature given to him in the Qu'ran, i.e. of being dutiful to his mother.

Then again most writing could be interpreted in different ways, even 'I and the father are one' in reality if interpreted in a way will not contradict the Qu'ran and Sunnah.

I have alot to say, including prophecies, testimony, and so forth, but I'll leave it until I am more prepared.

Eesa.

[Grace Seeker]

I think the Muslim members should becareful in being to quick to affirm or reject.

If we have a Biblical Text that agrees with the Qu'ran then this does not mean that the Biblical Text is true. What it means is that it might be true.

The process that allowed some mistakes to enter the Biblical Writing is one that doesn't just dissapear when a part of the text agrees with the Qu'ran. To say such would be illogical and very bias.

Rather if a text agrees with the Qu'ran then we say that might be or might not be, we cannot be sure, rather the only reason we are sure that Jesus did not say 'Woman, what have I to do with thee?' is because this would contradict the nature given to him in the Qu'ran, i.e. of being dutiful to his mother.

Then again most writing could be interpreted in different ways, even 'I and the father are one' in reality if interpreted in a way will not contradict the Qu'ran and Sunnah.

I have alot to say, including prophecies, testimony, and so forth, but I'll leave it until I am more prepared.

Eesa.

Eesa,

I just realized something, that I don't know why it didn't sink in before. It would do absolutely no good -- with respect to Islam that is -- for Christians to be in possessions of the original autographs of the Bible. As far as Islam is concerned, even what was originally written down could itself be tainted and you would be under no compulsion to accept it as the accurate record of Jesus revelation or any other revelation of God. It would still be just as you said above --"The process that allowed some mistakes to enter the Biblical Writing is one that doesn't just dissapear when a part of the text agrees with the Qu'ran." -- unless it were penned by Jesus himself. And even if that existed, but there were differences between that and what was written in the Qur'an, Islam would just argue that it was not the work of Jesus based on the belief that the Qur'an was authentic and thus anything else that disagreed must be what is in error. There is no proof that anyone could ever to a true believe in the Qur'an that anything else could be valid if it disagreed with the Qur'an. It is not a question of proof or reason, it is purely a question of faith.

[Woodrow]

Eesa,

I just realized something, that I don't know why it didn't sink in before. It would do absolutely no good -- with respect to Islam that is -- for Christians to be in possessions of the original autographs of the Bible. As far as Islam is concerned, even what was originally written down could itself be tainted and you would be under no compulsion to accept it as the accurate record of Jesus revelation or any other revelation of God. It would still be just as you said above --"The process that allowed some mistakes to enter the Biblical Writing is one that doesn't just dissapear when a part of the text agrees with the Qu'ran." -- unless it were penned by Jesus himself. And even if that existed, but there were differences between that and what was written in the Qur'an, Islam would just argue that it was not the work of Jesus based on the belief that the Qur'an was authentic and thus anything else that disagreed must be what is in error. There is no proof that anyone could ever to a true believe in the Qur'an that anything else could be valid if it disagreed with the Qur'an. It is not a question of proof or reason, it is purely a question of faith.

Speaking for myself, I would say that if there had been no loss or distortion of the Message Isa(as) was given, he would have been the final Prophet(PBUH) and there would have been no need for Allah(swt) to have sent the Qur'an as Muhammad(PBUH) would have already had the true Injil to spread to the world.

Just my opinion and thoughts Astragfirullah

[Grace Seeker]

Speaking for myself, I would say that if there had been no loss or distortion of the Message Isa(as) was given, he would have been the final Prophet(PBUH) and there would have been no need for Allah(swt) to have sent the Qur'an as Muhammad(PBUH) would have already had the true Injil to spread to the world.

Just my opinion and thoughts Astragfirullah

Nicely said. That is exactly what I do believe happened. :D :D :D

[Woodrow]

Nicely said. That is exactly what I do believe happened. :D :D :D

But I believe that since Allah(swt) sent the Qur'an, the Injil had been lost from it's original and full form.

Sometimes I get the feeling we are never going to agree. But, I do appreciate that you do disagree without malice and show mutual respect.

[Grace Seeker]

But I believe that since Allah(swt) sent the Qur'an, the Injil had been lost from it's original and full form.

Sometimes I get the feeling we are never going to agree. But, I do appreciate that you do disagree without malice and show mutual respect.

But we do agree, on many things, just not religion.


And, yes, Woodrow, I very much respect the manner in which you present yourself and are open to hearing the views of others, even if you cannot agree.

[NoName55]

Media Tags are no longer supported

I have changed the frormat to mp3 so it should work with any player now

[don532]

Eesa,

I just realized something, that I don't know why it didn't sink in before. It would do absolutely no good -- with respect to Islam that is -- for Christians to be in possessions of the original autographs of the Bible. As far as Islam is concerned, even what was originally written down could itself be tainted and you would be under no compulsion to accept it as the accurate record of Jesus revelation or any other revelation of God. It would still be just as you said above --"The process that allowed some mistakes to enter the Biblical Writing is one that doesn't just dissapear when a part of the text agrees with the Qu'ran." -- unless it were penned by Jesus himself. And even if that existed, but there were differences between that and what was written in the Qur'an, Islam would just argue that it was not the work of Jesus based on the belief that the Qur'an was authentic and thus anything else that disagreed must be what is in error. There is no proof that anyone could ever to a true believe in the Qur'an that anything else could be valid if it disagreed with the Qur'an. It is not a question of proof or reason, it is purely a question of faith.

Yes I think that is true. Christians could have texts of any ancient age, in excellent preserved condition, and because of the manner in which the Bible is a collection of writings by different authors, the case for corruption could always be made.

I also appreciate Woodrow, Eesa, Grace Seeker and others who can participate in on-line discussion calmly and with mutual respect. I am still learning, but I think I'm doing better.

Peace.

[MustafaMc]

Speaking for myself, I would say that if there had been no loss or distortion of the Message Isa(as) was given, he would have been the final Prophet(PBUH) and there would have been no need for Allah(swt) to have sent the Qur'an as Muhammad(PBUH) would have already had the true Injil to spread to the world.

However, from my perspective I respectfully disagree. We must ask, "What was the message and mission of Jesus (pbuh) as comparaed to the message and mission of Muhammad (pbuh)?" According to the Bible, Jesus was sent to the "lost sheep of Israel" Matthew 15:22-24 "And behold, a Canaanitish woman came out from those borders, and cried, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a demon." But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, "Send her away; for she crieth after us." But he answered and said, "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." In contrast, we believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to the whole world - not just the Arabs.

I believe that a part of the mission of Jesus (pbuh) was to foretell the coming of Muhammad as I interpret the "Comforter" referred to in John. For example, John 16:13-14 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, [these] shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare [it] unto you."

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the means through which Allah established Islam as a perfected religion and way of life for all of mankind and until the Judgement Day. The basic beliefs are the same as that brought by other prophets but some details of worship and worldly legislation were abrogated and new ones established. For example, no longer observing the Sabbath (Saturday), but now worshipping in congregation on Friday.