/* */

PDA

View Full Version : A Message To The Non-Muslims.



- Qatada -
03-12-2007, 07:50 PM
A Message To The Non-Muslims After which they are not Excused by Ignorance


Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem

Dear Reader,

The purpose of this message is to invite you to think of and contemplate about the real purpose of your life on this earth and where you will end up in the Hereafter. Will you end up in Paradise or in Hell-Fire? Please, take note, that when you have read this message, you are considered to have legislatively been given proof and been informed of the admonition of all messengers, and after which you will not be excused by ignorance:

Take note that Allah the Almighty is the One and Only God. He is Eternal. He is Absolute. He has not begotten and has not been begotten and no one is like Him.
  • Allah says: Say: He is Allah, the One; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him. Surah No.112, Verses 1-4.
  • Allah says: He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees. Surah No. 42, Verse No. 11.
Learn that Allah the Almighty is the Creator of all creatures. There is no god for this universe and what it holds but Allah.
  • Allah says: Allah is the Creator Of all things, and He is the Guardian and Disposer of all affairs. Surah No.39 Verse 62.
  • Allah says: Such is Allah, your Lord, The Creator of all things, there is no god but He: Then how you are deluded away from the Truth! Surah No.40, Verse No.62.
  • Allah says: To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and earth: To Allah do all matters return. Surah No.3 Verse No. 109.
Be informed that Allah the Almighty has created you for one single purpose which is to worship Him alone.
  • Allah says: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me. Surah No.51 Verse No. 56.
Allah says: And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to give zakat (i.e. charity given to the needy); and that is the Religion Right and Straight. Surah No.98, Verse No. 5.

Understand that it is out of sincerity and purity of worship to Allah to avoid worshipping the created whoever and whatever they may be.
  • Allah says: Certainly they disbelieve who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, - Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. Surah No. 5, Verse No. 72.
Allah says: Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god).” Surah No 72, Verse No. 20.

Allah says: Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is one God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner. Surah No. 18, Verse No. 110.

Allah says: Those to whom We have given the Book rejoice at what hath been revealed unto thee: but there are among the clans those who reject a part thereof. Say: "I am commanded to worship Allah, and not to join partners with Him. Unto Him do I call, and unto Him is my return. Surah No. 13, Verse No. 36.

Learn that he, who worships Allah joining with Him another whoever or whatever it may be, has associated partners with Allah and consequently his deeds will turn fruitless and he will be among the losers.
  • Allah says: But it has already been revealed to thee, - as it was to those before thee, - “if thou wert to join (gods with Allah), truly fruitless will be thy work (in life), and thou wilt surely be among the losers. Surah No. 29, Verse No. 65.

Allah says: This is the Guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His servants if they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them. Surah No. 6, Verse No.88.

Take note that Allah the Almighty sent all Prophets and Messengers to reinforce and remind people that there is no god but Allah. That is nothing is worthy of being worshipped but Allah.
  • Allah says: “For we assuredly sent amongst every people a Messenger, (with the command), “serve Allah, and eschew Evil”: of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). Surah No.16, Verse No. 36.

Allah says: Not a messenger did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.” Surah 21 Verse 25. There is no prophet who said to his people but: We sent Noah to his people. He said: “O my people! Worship Allah! Ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the Punishment of a dreadful Day! Surah No. 7, Verse No. 59.

Be informed that having faith and believing in all Prophets and Messengers is a must. If anyone rejects faith or doesn’t believe one Prophet or Messenger of Allah’s the Almighty, they are rejecting faith in Allah and disbelieving Him and all His Prophets and Messengers.
  • Allah says: “The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith, each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of his Messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 285.
Allah says: “‘Verily it has been revealed to us that the Chastisement (awaits) those who reject and turn away. Surah No. 20, Verse No. 48.

Allah says: And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?” Surah No.29, Verse No. 68.

Allah says: Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which we sent Our messengers: but soon shall they know. Surah No. 40, Verse No. 70.

Be informed that Muhammad bin Abudullah bin Abdullmutalib (Peace and Blessings of Allah Be Upon Him) (PBBUH ) is the Messenger of Allah, who was sent by Allah as mercy to the worlds, giving glad tidings and warnings and that he is the seal of all Prophets and messengers and there is no Prophet after him.
  • Allah says: “Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: many were the Messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 144.

Allah says: “Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures),-in the Taurat and the Gospel; - for he commands them what is just and Forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure): He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, - it is they who will prosper.” Surah No. 7, verse No. 157.


Allah says: “Say: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to who belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger. The unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words, follow him that (so) ye may be guided. Surah No. 7, Verse No. 158.


Allah says: “Now hath come to you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that you should suffer, ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful”. Surah No. 9, Verse No. 128.

Allah says: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets. And Allah has full knowledge of all things. Surah No. 33, Verse No. 40.

Allah says: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah… Surah No 48, Verse No. 29.

Allah says: And remember, Jesus, the Son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with Clear Signs, They said, “This is evident sorcery! Surah No.61, Verse No.6. Take note that Allah the Almighty revealed to Muhammad (PBBUH) the Holy Quran which is the word of Allah and which contains Guidance and Light for the worlds. It has alsoexplanation of everything.
  • Allah says: “Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down The Qur’an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong) so every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spent it in fasting, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you: He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. Surah No.2, Verse No.185.

Allah says: Say: “What thing is most weighty in evidence?” say: “Allah is witness between me and you; this Qur’an hath been revealed to me by inspiration. That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?” say: “Nay! I cannot bear witness! Surah No. 6, Verse No. 19.

Allah says: Verily this Quran doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the glad tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 9.

Allah says: “We send down (stage by stage) of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 82.

Allah says: “As for thee, thou receives theQuran from One All-Wise, All-Knowing.Surah No. 27, Verse No. 6.

Allah says: And We have explained to man, in this Quran, every kind of similitude: yet greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with gratitude! Surah No. 17, Verse No. 89.

Appreciate that the Holy Quran, which was revealed to Allah’s Prophet (PBBUH), has been the Greatest Evident Miracle Ever. It is continuing and everlastingly challenging all mankind gathered together to produce something like it or like one of its Surahs.
  • Allah says: “Say: ‘if the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.’ Surah No. 17, Verse No. 88.

Allah says: “And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witness or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if ye are truthful. Surah No. 2, Verse No. 23.

Be informed that Allah has ordered all mankind no matter what their colours, sexes; languages may be to believe in Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUP), follow him and obey him. He who obeys the Prophet (PBBUH) obeys Allah and consequently he will be on the right path; and; he who disobeysthe Prophet (PBBUH), disobeys Allah and consequently he will be on the wrong path.
  • Allah says: “Say: “Obey Allah and His Messenger”: but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject faith. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 32.

Allah says: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). Surah No. 8, Verse No. 20.

Allah says: He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah… Surah No. 4, Verse No. 80.

Allah says: “Say: “if ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 31. Take note that he who hears of Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUH) and neither believes in him nor follows him is a disbeliever in Allah, rejecting faith in Him andconsequently worthy to be tortured on the Day of Judgement.
  • Allah says: “We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: It is the Signs of Allah, which the wicked deny. Surah No. 6, Verse No. 33.

Allah says: On that day those who reject Faith and disobey the Messenger will wish that the earth were made one with them: but never will they hide a single fact from Allah! Surah No. 4, Verse No. 42.

Allah says: “If anyone contends with the Messenger even after Guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men to Faith, we shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- What an evil refuge! Surah No. 4, Verse No. 115.


The Prophet (PBBUH) says: “By the One in whose hands Muhammad’s soul is, if anyone, anywhere in the world, whether a Jew or Christian hears of me and dies without believing in my Message will definitely be amongst those in Hell-Fire. (Muslim)

Take note that the Religion before Allah is Islam and it is the religion of all Prophets and Messengers. No religion is accepted of anyone but Islam.
  • Allah says: And Abraham enjoined upon his sons and so did Jacob;” Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Me). Surah No. 2, Verse No.132.

Allah says: “
The Religion before Allah is Islam..Surah No. 3, Verse No. 19.

Allah says: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. Surah No. 3, Verse No.85.

Be informed that resurrection after death is coming and absolutely true; the Hour is coming and absolutely true and theaccountability on doomsday is absolutely true.
  • Allah says: “Lost indeed are they who treat it as a falsehood that they must meet Allah, - until on a sudden the Hour is on them, and they say: “Ah! Woe unto us that we neglected; for they bear their burdens on their backs, and evil indeed are the burdens that they bear? Surah No. 6 Verse No. 31.

Allah says: Verily the Hour is coming- I have almost kept it hidden- for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 15.

Allah says: And verily the Hour will come: there can be no doubt about it, or about (the fact) that Allah will raise up all who are in the graves. Surah No. 22, Verse No. 7.

Allah says: The Unbelievers say, “Never to us will come the Hour”: say, “Nay! But most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you;… Surah No 34, Verse No. 3.

Allah says: The Hour will certainly come: therein is no doubt: yet most men believe not. Surah No. 40, Verse No. No. 59.

Allah says: Again, on the Day of Judgement, will ye be raised up. Surah No. 23, Verse No. 16.

Allah says: Allah is never unjust in the least degree: if there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His Own self a great reward. Surah No. 4, Verse No. 40.

Allah says: Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it. Surah No. 99, Verses Nos. 7-8. Learn that Paradise and its bounties are absolutely true, therein everlasting goodness and bounties of which no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared Allah’s righteous believers.
  • Allah says: The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised! - beneath it flow rivers; perpetual is the fruits therof and the shade therein: such is the End of the Righteous and the End of the Unbelievers is the Fire. Surah No. 13, Verse No. 35.

Allah says: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow, every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: “Why, this what we were fed with before,” for that are given things in similitude; and they have therein spouses purified; and they abide therein (forever).” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 25.

Allah says: But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness- to them shall We give a Home in Heaven, - lofty mansions beneath which flow rivers, -to dwell therein for aye; an excellent reward for those who do (good)! Surah No. 29, Verse No. 58.

Allah says: Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that Day have joy in all that they do. Surah No. 36, Verse No. 55.

Allah says: (Here is) the description of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water unstaling; rivers of Milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Forgiveness from their Lord, (can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell fro ever in the Fire and be given to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? Surah No.47, Verse No. 15.

Allah says: Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous. Surah No.3 Verse No 133.


Allah says: “Be ye foremost (in seeking) forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth prepared for those who believe in Allah and His messengers: that is the Grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He pleases: and Allah is the Lord of Grace abounding. Surah No. 57, Verse No. 21.

Learn that the Hell fire is absolutely true; its torture in is true; and fierce. It has a torture that is extremely fierce, harsh, and perpetual. Its torture is something that no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared for those who associate partners with Allah and who made it false to believe in Allah.
  • Allah says: “Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger is the Fire of Hell? - Wherein they shall dwell. That is the supreme disgrace.Surah No.9, Verse No. 63.

Allah says: …on the Day of Judgement we shall gather them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 97.

Allah says:And We shall drive the sinners to hell, (like thirsty cattle driven down to water) Surah No. 19, Verse No. 86.

Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement), -for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live. Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74.

Allah says: But those who reject (Allah) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: not term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Chastisement be lightened for them. Thus do WE reward every ungrateful. Surah No. 35, Verse No. 36.

Allah says: “The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in groups: until, when they arrive there, its gates will be opened. And its Keepers will say, “Did not messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” The answer will be: “True: but the Decree of Chastisement has been proved true against the Unbelievers! Surah No. 39, Verse No. 71.

Take note that if you die believing in the oneness of God and in Muhammad (PBBUH), Allah’s last Messenger, you will be amongst those who will be saved and led into Paradise to live in its bounties for ever.
  • Allah says: “But such as come to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds, for them are ranks exalted.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 75.
Whereas, if you die associating partners with Allah, disbelieving in Him and rejecting faith in Him, you will be among thosewhowill be in Hell Fire for ever and ever.
  • Allah says: “But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raisehim up blind on the Day of Judgement.SurahNo. 20, Verse 124.

Allah says: “And who does more wrong than one to whom are recited the Signs of his Lord, and who then turns way therefrom? Verily from those who transgress We shall exact (due) retribution.” Surah No. 32, Verse no. 22.

Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement),-for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74

Allah says: “…and if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 217

Be informed that there is no force in religion; the right path is clear and the wrong path is clear. So after you have read and thought of and contemplated about the above message, you will not be excused by ignorance. As the warnings and message of all messengers have now reached you, you will be brought to account and be accountable on the Day of Judgment when there is no benefit for money or children but only for those who will come with good deeds and clear hearts. Finally take note that the devils of mankind and Jinn’s and the wicked of the learned among them are scheming day and night to prevent you from listening to this message and to any other message that speaks of the Truth.

We pray to Allah that He helps you find the right path and guide you to what pleases Him

Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds


PathtoParadise
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-12-2007, 08:28 PM
Answer the Call of your Lord before there comes from Allah a Day which cannot be averted. You will have no refuge on that Day nor there will be for you any denying.
[Qur'an 42: 47]
Reply

Hemoo
03-17-2007, 08:34 PM
and i ask every non muslim yet to be a truth seeker

and to ask from Allah the guidance
Reply

Trumble
03-18-2007, 01:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by hemoo
and i ask every non muslim yet to be a truth seeker
A great many of us are. That doesn't mean we have found, or will find, the same truth.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
SilentObserver
03-18-2007, 02:20 AM
I don't believe the truth can be found here.
Reply

Joe98
03-18-2007, 10:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Allah the Almighty is the One and Only God.
Please list for me the other gods that are claimed to exist.

I seek the truth. Only then can I decide whether Allah is the one true g-d
Reply

Hemoo
03-18-2007, 12:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
A great many of us are. That doesn't mean we have found, or will find, the same truth.
There is only one truth

you can't say that opposition are all true and all oppositions are right (that is logically impossible)

as i said its only one truth

the matter is whether you found it or you will never do

if you do your best and you are sincere then you are most likely you will know what's right and what's wrong .....
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-18-2007, 07:09 PM
Please ask yourselves , O non muslims, Just how many of you have truelly contemplated over the message delivered?

Its a lot to contemplate over, it will take time.
Reply

Hemoo
03-18-2007, 07:41 PM
i will ask you do you exist ??"

if you don't know then this is a big problem

and if you exist : how did that happen ??

how is there a humanity ?where did they come from ?

we know that every creation points to the fact that there is a creator

and if there are a creator : Why did the creator create the creation ??

what is the purpose of that ??

i think you need to go step by step untill you find out the real facts and rule out all the theories that have never proven to be right ....

so start with is there a creator : there must be one ....

and talk to you later
Reply

wilberhum
03-18-2007, 08:58 PM
If there must be a creator, who created the creator?
Reply

aamirsaab
03-18-2007, 09:02 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
If there must be a creator, who created the creator?
I'll ask Him when I see Him. Sound fair?

:statisfie
Reply

Joe98
03-18-2007, 09:36 PM
The first post begins with a great list of points. I remain stuck on the first point.

What other entities claim to be god? Only then can I work out which is the true god!
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-18-2007, 09:38 PM
are all of your really thinking about it?

I find it amazing to perceive that anyone can think there is no God once they consider all the amazing mechanisms which are so perfectly synchronized.


.... omg..
Reply

aamirsaab
03-18-2007, 09:42 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
The first post begins with a great list of points. I remain stuck on the first point.

What other entities claim to be god? Only then can I work out which is the true god!
Well, hindus believe in many gods, so to clarify Islams stance on this, there is only One True God. There are also those who believe Jesus Christ (pbuh) is God, so this statement tells us that there is only one true God (aka Allah)
Reply

Count DeSheep
03-18-2007, 09:50 PM
Allah says: “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.” Surah No. 3, Verse No.85.
So Christianity and Judaism are acceptable?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-18-2007, 10:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
So Christianity and Judaism are acceptable?
no, christians and jews submit to other gods, not Allah :)

p
e
a
c
e
Reply

Count DeSheep
03-18-2007, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
no, christians and jews submit to other gods, not Allah :)
Psh. You might want to believe that, but Christians, Jews, and Muslims are united in the faith in the one and only god. We all worship the same being, believe in the same principles. Many Christians and Jews do not follow the guidelines so strictly as Muslims do, and there are a few minor differences in religious beliefs, but we still worship the same god.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-19-2007, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Psh. You might want to believe that, but Christians, Jews, and Muslims are united in the faith in the one and only god. We all worship the same being, believe in the same principles. Many Christians and Jews do not follow the guidelines so strictly as Muslims do, and there are a few minor differences in religious beliefs, but we still worship the same god.
You see, Chrisitans associate Jesus son of Mary and the Holy Spirit with God. They take Mary as an intercessor with God and that is associationism. And God has forbidden Paradise for anyone that associates anything as an equal with Him. The Jews associated partners with God when they took their Rabbi's words over Gods and they broke their covenant with God when they slew the Prophets that came to them. They rejected Jesus son of Mary and slandered his mother.

The Jews and the Chrisitans reject Muhammad and to believe in him and believe in everything that he brought is mandatory to enter Paradise and his coming was foretold in the previous scriptures as is confirmed by scholars from among them that came to Islam such as Abdullah ibn Salam.

Bottom line - Worship none but God, associate nothing with Him, believe in the final Messenger Muhammad, believe that Jesus son of Mary was no more than a human and a Messenger of God, and believe in the life after death and you will be successfull. It's really as simple as that.
Reply

Count DeSheep
03-19-2007, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Madani
You see, Chrisitans associate Jesus son of Mary and the Holy Spirit with God. They take Mary as an intercessor with God and that is associationism. And God has forbidden Paradise for anyone that associates anything as an equal with Him.
I've never heard of Christians saying Mary is equal to God. Ever. That's why they're called monotheists.

The Jews and the Chrisitans reject Muhammad and to believe in him and believe in everything that he brought is mandatory to enter Paradise and his coming was foretold in the previous scriptures as is confirmed by scholars from among them that came to Islam such as Abdullah ibn Salam.
Few Christians even know who Muhammad is. They do not reject him, and they do not know anything about him, except maybe that he was the human founder of Islam. I'm Christian, but I accept Muhammad as a messenger/prophet of God. Then again, I'm also considering converting to Islam.

Bottom line - Worship none but God, associate nothing with Him, believe in the final Messenger Muhammad, believe that Jesus son of Mary was no more than a human and a Messenger of God, and believe in the life after death and you will be successfull. It's really as simple as that.
Jesus...he's part of the reason why I'm considering converting. But I just read in the Bible today in church that when he was baptised, a voice from Heaven said that he was God's son. He always used "Son of Man" as a self-designation, and yet the entry on that phrase in that same Bible defines the phrase as meaning any human being. Hm.

God has manifested Himself in the form of a human before, has He not? What makes the idea of Him coming down more than once as human so ridiculous? He struggled with Jacob and then renamed him Israel, as I remember. Or maybe that was just an angel God sent. Can't remember anymore...:exhausted
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-19-2007, 01:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
I've never heard of Christians saying Mary is equal to God. Ever. That's why they're called monotheists.
Yes, but don't they seek her intercession? That is associationism. The Qur'an makes this clear:
10: 18 And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with Allah " Say, "Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him.
Islam is pure, strict monotheism. All worship, supplication, actions are for God alone because He alone is worthy of having this done for Him.
Few Christians even know who Muhammad is. They do not reject him, and they do not know anything about him, except maybe that he was the human founder of Islam.
That is why we are trying to spread this message of Islam to them. Those who genuinly never got the message of Islam, or were prevented from getting it have their reckoning with God who will give them a chance on the Day of Judgement.

I'm Christian, but I accept Muhammad as a messenger/prophet of God. Then again, I'm also considering converting to Islam.
That's excellent news. I hope you accept Islam :)
Jesus...he's part of the reason why I'm considering converting. But I just read in the Bible today in church that when he was baptised, a voice from Heaven said that he was God's son. He always used "Son of Man" as a self-designation, and yet the entry on that phrase in that same Bible defines the phrase as meaning any human being. Hm.
But what is the authentic proof that this happened? If Jesus son of Mary was truly the 'son' of God, why would he always say 'Son of Man' as you yourself stated?
3: 59 Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.
Don't allow yourself to be mislead by doubts and the whispering of Satan, you are heading in the right direction, take that step :)
God has manifested Himself in the form of a human before, has He not? What makes the idea of Him coming down more than once as human so ridiculous? He struggled with Jacob and then renamed him Israel, as I remember. Or maybe that was just an angel God sent. Can't remember anymore...:exhausted
I am not familiar with this story, but we believe that God can never manifest himself as part of His creation. It does not suit His Majesty. He is above such a thing, the created and the Creator can never be equal.
Reply

Count DeSheep
03-19-2007, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Madani
Yes, but don't they seek her intercession? That is associationism. The Qur'an makes this clear:
10: 18 And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with Allah " Say, "Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him.
Islam is pure, strict monotheism. All worship, supplication, actions are for God alone because He alone is worthy of having this done for Him.
I certainly don't see it. Mary was chosen by God to be the vessel that held Jesus's human body for nine months. So what? I suppose next you'll say that the Apostles were bad as well. We do not worship anyone but God. Although I have heard that Catholics pray to her or some other figure. I don't know why, and it is something that I haven't confirmed yet. In any case, that's only the Catholics, and not all Christians.

But what is the authentic proof that this happened? If Jesus son of Mary was truly the 'son' of God, why would he always say 'Son of Man' as you yourself stated?
3: 59 Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.
Don't allow yourself to be mislead by doubts and the whispering of Satan, you are heading in the right direction, take that step :)
I'm guessing he either said that to put himself on the level with humans, to say that he was in human form and suffered as we do, or to say "I'm not God! Get it through your head!" in a polite way. In my experience, all religious texts are vague like that...>.<

Kinda funny that someone who believes in God would ask for authentic proof of something religious, considering religion is based on faith. =P

I am not familiar with this story, but we believe that God can never manifest himself as part of His creation. It does not suit His Majesty. He is above such a thing, the created and the Creator can never be equal.
Bleh. I believe God can do whatever He wants, whenever He wants. I think that He has come down as human, multiple times apparently, to do things that we might not be able to understand. I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-19-2007, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
I certainly don't see it. Mary was chosen by God to be the vessel that held Jesus's human body for nine months. So what? I suppose next you'll say that the Apostles were bad as well. We do not worship anyone but God. Although I have heard that Catholics pray to her or some other figure. I don't know why, and it is something that I haven't confirmed yet. In any case, that's only the Catholics, and not all Christians.
The thing is that, no matter how long she held Jesus's body she is still a human and does not have a share in divinity. To take her, or anyone for that matter as an intercessor with God is the very associationism that the Prophet Muhammad came to end.
Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors besides Him [say], "We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position." Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever. [Quran 39/3]
I'm guessing he either said that to put himself on the level with humans, to say that he was in human form and suffered as we do, or to say "I'm not God! Get it through your head!" in a polite way. In my experience, all religious texts are vague like that...>.<
He Who created Adam without a father or a mother is able to create Jesus son of Mary, as well, without a father. If the claim is made that `Jesus son of Mary is Allah's son because he was created without a father, then the same claim befits Adam even more. However, since such a claim regarding Adam is obviously false, then making the same claim about Jesus son of Mary is even more false. Furthermore, by mentioning these facts, Allah emphasizes His ability, by creating Adam without a male or female, Hawa' from a male without a female, and Jesus son of Mary from a mother without a father, compared to His creating the rest of creation from male and female.
Kinda funny that someone who believes in God would ask for authentic proof of something religious, considering religion is based on faith. =P
I asked for proof whether the story is authentic or not. In Islam, our Qur'an, and the narrations from the Messenger can be traced back to him. There are chains of narrations for everything that we know to be from Muhammad (saw). Therefore, faith is required for something such as Life after Death, but proof is required if a statement or a story is attributed to the Messenger.

Bleh. I believe God can do whatever He wants, whenever He wants. I think that He has come down as human, multiple times apparently, to do things that we might not be able to understand. I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
Of course God can do whatever He wills whenever He wills. But the question is did He do it? So I say what I said before, it does not suit His Majesty. He is above such things.
3: 47 ...When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" and it is.
Reply

Keltoi
03-19-2007, 05:08 PM
Christians do not see Mary as divine by any definition of the word. She is an important figure in Christendom by the fact that she was mother of Jesus Christ, but beyond that she is never considered to be divine. Catholics probably put more emphasis on the mother of Christ than other denominations, but they don't consider Mary to be divine either.
Reply

vpb
03-19-2007, 05:18 PM
If there must be a creator, who created the creator?
the thing is that you're asking this question from a human point of view. our imagination is very limited. everything we do in this world is based on a shape,color....etc. the term 'creation' is taught to you, and is part of your imagination, but your imagination cannot go beyond that.
if I ask you could you model me another way of life, you would still come up with something like "cells, organs, ..." using terms and stuff that we know. we can't model a life, something new, without using life terminologies , something like we've never seen before, and actually it would not work bc we wouldn't understand it. so when you say who created then God, this is your limited imagination (human imagination), bc probably outside our imagination, the term creation doesn't even exist. and Allah swt is able to do anything, and his knowledge is perfect. He has created things that match with our nature, that we can understand. This some sort of question like:
"can God create a rock that he can't hold it", so in this case we use our limited imagination bc we think that Allah swt knows only to make gravity, probably outside our world, in Allah's knowledge there is some other type of thing, which is nothing like gravity, so if Allah want he can disappear the term of "mass or gravity" and it doesn't exist anymore, and the question would not make sense anymore.

you get what i'm sayin. and please don't ask these kind of questions. cuz they're funny :D
Reply

wilberhum
03-19-2007, 05:51 PM
you get what i'm sayin. and please don't ask these kind of questions. cuz they're funny
Funny? Why?
One of the arguments that many theists use is that every thing comes from some thing else. Therefore there must be a created. I’m just pointing out that I find that conclusion erroneous. Using the same logic, the creator needs a creator.
So it is just as valid to say the creator was the energy of the big bang.
Not what I believe, just pointing out what I conceder faulty logic.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-19-2007, 06:17 PM
everything is created BUT the creator.

theres your answer :)
Reply

wilberhum
03-19-2007, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
everything is created BUT the creator.

theres your answer :)
Again, very standard response.
Logic tells you ....... till the logic fails and that is where god comes in.
Reply

vpb
03-19-2007, 06:50 PM
Funny? Why?
One of the arguments that many theists use is that every thing comes from some thing else. Therefore there must be a created. I’m just pointing out that I find that conclusion erroneous. Using the same logic, the creator needs a creator.
So it is just as valid to say the creator was the energy of the big bang.
Not what I believe, just pointing out what I conceder faulty logic.
dude, there can't be a creator of a creator, it does not make sense , there cannot be a creator[1] of a creator[2], bc then the creator[2] would not be a creator but a creation. the root of everything comes from the creator. the word itself 'creator' tells that he created and he can't be created . Creator[1] is a the devisor. How can someone ie. Creator[2] create a creator[1] that is a deviser? than the the one who created Creator[1] is the deviser, not the creator[1]. and we come to the conclusion that we don't call Creator[1] a creator but a creation.
i don't know if you've ever used unix systems but it's like that
/home/user/ , we know that the folder user belongs to home, and home to / . but / does not belong to anywhere. it's the last point, you can't go beyond that folder cuz it's the root which holds everything. or maybe like Windows, you can go beyond the C:, which you go the hard drive as a whole, but you can't go beyond that. see :)
Reply

wilberhum
03-19-2007, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
dude, there can't be a creator of a creator, it does not make sense , there cannot be a creator[1] of a creator[2], bc then the creator[2] would not be a creator but a creation. the root of everything comes from the creator. the word itself 'creator' tells that he created and he can't be created.
i don't know if you've ever used unix systems but it's like that
/home/user/ , we know that the folder user belongs to home, and home to / . but / does not belong to anywhere. it's the last point, you can't go beyond that folder cuz it's the root which holds everything. or maybe like Windows, you can go beyond the C:, which you go the hard drive as a whole, but you can't go beyond that. see :)
See my response to IbnAbdulHakim.
Reply

vpb
03-19-2007, 07:02 PM
wilberhum, well i wrote 2 posts , explaining you in logical way about that, but seems it doesn't do anything and you don't wish to accept it. and that's what I thought. so i'll just leave you with that. :)

for a finish here's a verse :)
Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them? Surah Muhammed 47:24
Subhanallah we bi hamdihi.
Reply

wilberhum
03-19-2007, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
wilberhum, well i wrote 2 posts , explaining you in logical way about that, but seems it doesn't do anything and you don't wish to accept it. and that's what I thought. so i'll just leave you with that. :)

for a finish here's a verse :)


Subhanallah we bi hamdihi.
I have no problem with your explinations of belief. What I have a problem with is:
you are considered to have legislatively been given proof and been informed of the admonition of all messengers,
There is that Proof stuff again when there is none.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-19-2007, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I don't believe the truth can be found here.
Then bear witness that we've given you the message of Islam clearly, and that you have turned away from it by your own desire.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-19-2007, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Again, very standard response.
Logic tells you ....... till the logic fails and that is where god comes in.
Whats so hard to comprehend :?
Reply

Trumble
03-19-2007, 08:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
Whats so hard to comprehend :?
Nothing. But
everything is created BUT the creator
is a statement, not an argument. There is nothing to support it at all. Logic has "failed" in that it seemingly cannot provide such support, and is therefore abandoned in the hope that the statement alone will somehow be enough. For those who don't believe already it isn't.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-19-2007, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Nothing. But


is a statement, not an argument. There is nothing to support it at all. Logic has "failed" in that it seemingly cannot provide such support, and is therefore abandoned in the hope that the statement alone will somehow be enough. For those who don't believe already it isn't.
support?

do you not realise just from contemplation that there is a common source for everything, why else is everything in such perfect synchronization?
Reply

Joe98
03-19-2007, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Madani
......that we've given you the message of Islam clearly,
From the above the message is limited to: Be scared of god and worship god or burn in hell.

What a wonderful god! Thats won me over!
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-19-2007, 09:16 PM
Hmmm, I find it to be strange how people take human 'logic' as something that can explain Allah. We only know of Allah that which He has given us knowledge of, and our knowledge is very limited indeed.

"...and Allah is the master of His affair, but most people do not know."
[12:21]


Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel; I do not follow aught save that which is revealed to me. Say: Are the blind and the seeing one alike? Do you not then reflect?
[6:50]


"So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not."
[30:30]
Reply

vpb
03-19-2007, 09:20 PM
From the above the message is limited to: Be scared of god and worship god or burn in hell.

What a wonderful god! Thats won me over!
why do you always try to find hair inside an egg?
Reply

Joe98
03-19-2007, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
why do you always try to find hair inside an egg?
Great phrase!

I have learnt something on this forum this year!
Reply

snakelegs
03-19-2007, 09:31 PM
yeah, i liked it too!
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-20-2007, 01:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
If there must be a creator, who created the creator?
This question belongs in another thread. Find one, ask it there, and then PM to it and I will be glad to engage in a scientific dialog with respect to this question that you will find leaves us at the same place with respect to beliefs about the beginnings of the universe that we are from a faith perspective.
Reply

czgibson
03-20-2007, 02:32 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
dude, there can't be a creator of a creator, it does not make sense , there cannot be a creator[1] of a creator[2], bc then the creator[2] would not be a creator but a creation. the root of everything comes from the creator. the word itself 'creator' tells that he created and he can't be created . Creator[1] is a the devisor. How can someone ie. Creator[2] create a creator[1] that is a deviser? than the the one who created Creator[1] is the deviser, not the creator[1]. and we come to the conclusion that we don't call Creator[1] a creator but a creation.
Isn't it possible for something to be both a creation and a creator? Artists are creative. If two of them have a child who also turns out to be an artist, then some creators have created another creator. It's not on the same scale as the god question, but doesn't it make sense?

Peace
Reply

Hemoo
03-24-2007, 04:03 PM
no one in earth can be called a real creator , i mean every industry that creates things and every artist who paints pictures using the colors or an artist who uses the camera or Pc ,they are not the real creators ,even when a women give birth to her child ,she didn't really create him.

why is that ?

because all of the above sub creators has already used the raw materials or their biological materials (just a figure of speech) that is already exists ..

you can't create a computer without using a single material that already exists in nature.you can't create things from nothing because you don't have the capability to do that.

even if scientists wanted to create a house fly ,they will have to use the already created materials (such as the biological cells) and this example is clearly obvious in the cloning.


so here is a question that always bumps out ,Who created those materials ????????
Reply

MustafaMc
03-25-2007, 02:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Christians do not see Mary as divine by any definition of the word. She is an important figure in Christendom by the fact that she was mother of Jesus Christ, but beyond that she is never considered to be divine. Catholics probably put more emphasis on the mother of Christ than other denominations, but they don't consider Mary to be divine either.
Perhaps you haven't heard the Catholic Hail Mary: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." From my perspective, for someone to be the "Mother of God" that pretty much defines her as divine. The same claim to divinity can be said for someone who is the "Son of God", or for that matter the "Daughter of God". All of these are putting others as equals with Allah which is a most monstrous sin.
Reply

akulion
03-25-2007, 02:11 AM
well its a bit too long to be called a note

good effort though
Reply

MustafaMc
03-25-2007, 02:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
If there must be a creator, who created the creator?
This is an unanswerable riddle that is a vain attempt at disproving the existence of Allah. I can use logic that proves Allah's existence to my mind, but I can't convince someone else who is insistent upon denial.

Let me use an analogy. Several years ago, I built a 12'x16' shed that started out as a neatly stacked pile of 2"x4"s, 2"x6"s, plywood, tin roofing, nails and cinder blocks. If I had the ability to throw all of these materials into the air over and over again, how many times would I have to throw them up before they came down exactly in the form of the finished shed that I "created" from scratch? My supposition is that it is mathematically impossible. How much more impossible the creation of even a single celled bacteria much less the entire universe by the Creator that we Muslim know as Allah.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-25-2007, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Perhaps you haven't heard the Catholic Hail Mary: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." From my perspective, for someone to be the "Mother of God" that pretty much defines her as divine. The same claim to divinity can be said for someone who is the "Son of God", or for that matter the "Daughter of God". All of these are putting others as equals with Allah which is a most monstrous sin.
That may be how you understand it. But that isn't what Catholics mean by it.
Reply

Count DeSheep
03-25-2007, 10:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
That may be how you understand it. But that isn't what Catholics mean by it.
Mother of God=Mother of Jesus, jah? 'Cause the Catholics believe Jesus is God, and Mary was the lucky woman to be chosen to bring him into the world. That about right?
Reply

czgibson
03-25-2007, 11:36 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
This is an unanswerable riddle that is a vain attempt at disproving the existence of Allah.
You're right - it is unanswerable. It contradicts your world-view, so you decide to call it vain; your decision here has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with the fear that you might be wrong.

I can use logic that proves Allah's existence to my mind, but I can't convince someone else who is insistent upon denial.
Then you're clearly not using logic. A logical argument will convince any rational person, no matter what their prior beliefs, as long as its premises are accepted.

Let me use an analogy. Several years ago, I built a 12'x16' shed that started out as a neatly stacked pile of 2"x4"s, 2"x6"s, plywood, tin roofing, nails and cinder blocks. If I had the ability to throw all of these materials into the air over and over again, how many times would I have to throw them up before they came down exactly in the form of the finished shed that I "created" from scratch? My supposition is that it is mathematically impossible. How much more impossible the creation of even a single celled bacteria much less the entire universe by the Creator that we Muslim know as Allah.
Perhaps you can explain how this analogy is relevant to

a} the specific point you're talking about, and

b} arguments put forward by non-theists.

Peace
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-26-2007, 12:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Mother of God=Mother of Jesus, jah? 'Cause the Catholics believe Jesus is God, and Mary was the lucky woman to be chosen to bring him into the world. That about right?
That is why she is called that. But that does not mean that Catholics see Mary as divine herself. Those who try to force that point of view are reading into the title something that Catholics don't even imagine.
Reply

جوري
03-26-2007, 12:01 AM
With all due respect, we have heard some of the best in atheist logic-- and the zen of a zero dividing isn't all that logical. Nor readily accepted by a rational mind! Unless you can come up with something better than the so called logical fallacies in the art of debate to disprove the existence of G-D.. are your arguments against his existence just as deficient!

Many a "rational" persons can't grasp readily accepted logical concepts, from inverse of a c-cycle permuation to the making of cerebral spinal fluid, but that doesn't invalidate the concepts nor does it preclude from their existence.

peace!
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-26-2007, 12:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Then you're clearly not using logic. A logical argument will convince any rational person, no matter what their prior beliefs, as long as its premises are accepted.
True. But, not everyone who claims to be listening with logic is exactly doing that either. There are many non-believers in God who are just as illogical in reaching the views that they have, and yet false claim that they are the ones being rational, when in fact they just choose a different set of beliefs. They are in fact no more logical in reaching those conclusions than the theists.
Reply

جوري
03-26-2007, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
That is why she is called that. But that does not mean that Catholics see Mary as divine herself. Those who try to force that point of view are reading into the title something that Catholics don't even imagine.
I found this and wanted to ask you, of your take on it
"DEVOTION TO THE MOST HOLY MARY

(This instruction may serve either for an instruction or for a sermon; but whether it be given in the form of an instruction or of a sermon, the person who gives the spiritual exercises to the priests is entreated not to omit this discourse, which is, perhaps, the most fruitful of all; for without devotion to the divine Mother it is morally impossible for any one to be a good priest.)"

from this website http://biblelight.net/omnip.htm

what does Divine Mary mean?... Maybe it is my poor english skills, It is after all not my mother tongue or even my second language but this is what I found in meriam webster
Main Entry: 1di&#183;vine
Pronunciation: d&-'vIn
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): di&#183;vin&#183;er; -est
Etymology: Middle English divin, from Anglo-French, from Latin divinus, from divus god -- more at DEITY

Also my take from the writer that he himself thinks it blasphemy to exalt her to such a status... and thankfully the article isn't written by a Muslim!
Reply

MustafaMc
03-26-2007, 01:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
That is why she is called that. But that does not mean that Catholics see Mary as divine herself. Those who try to force that point of view are reading into the title something that Catholics don't even imagine.
I can respect your point of view, but, if one uses logic and the meaning of words without prior biases, then he would come to a different conclusion.

The simple Islamic belief in the Oneness of Allah without parents, spouse, offspring, or equal is much more understandable and does not need elaborate explanations. God is not the author of confusion (I Cor 14:33).
Reply

MustafaMc
03-26-2007, 01:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
There are many non-believers in God who are just as illogical in reaching the views that they have, and yet false claim that they are the ones being rational, when in fact they just choose a different set of beliefs.
You are correct in that Atheism is a belief in the non-existence of God.
Reply

Yanal
03-26-2007, 01:37 AM
Asalam alkum warkmatulah wabrkatuh my brothers and sisters i would like to say something why are you brothers and sisters saying fi_sibililah's mistakes or errors he wrote this article so people can understand allah (swt) and most of you people are correcting mistakes you read to gain knowledge not to correct mistakes ok so please keep that in mind and sorry to be rude May Allah (swt) bless us and let us go to paridise AMEEM :w: FONT]
Reply

MustafaMc
03-26-2007, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
why are you brothers and sisters saying fi_sibililah's mistakes or errors he wrote this article so people can understand allah (swt) and most of you people are correcting mistakes you read to gain knowledge not to correct mistakes
Please, clarify your point, perhaps by stating your point in another way. I am not aware of anyone pointing out any mistakes in the original message. I thought that it was extremely well written and accurate.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-27-2007, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I found this and wanted to ask you, of your take on it
"DEVOTION TO THE MOST HOLY MARY

(This instruction may serve either for an instruction or for a sermon; but whether it be given in the form of an instruction or of a sermon, the person who gives the spiritual exercises to the priests is entreated not to omit this discourse, which is, perhaps, the most fruitful of all; for without devotion to the divine Mother it is morally impossible for any one to be a good priest.)"

from this website http://biblelight.net/omnip.htm

what does Divine Mary mean?... Maybe it is my poor english skills, It is after all not my mother tongue or even my second language but this is what I found in meriam webster
Main Entry: 1di·vine
Pronunciation: d&-'vIn
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): di·vin·er; -est
Etymology: Middle English divin, from Anglo-French, from Latin divinus, from divus god -- more at DEITY

Also my take from the writer that he himself thinks it blasphemy to exalt her to such a status... and thankfully the article isn't written by a Muslim!


LOL

What to tell you? I think that this person is the one who needs to take a remedial course in English. "Divine" as this person used the term would indeed imply a beleif in Mary as divine. Yet, I also know enough about Catholic teachings in this matter to know that this would be considered to be in error by the Roman Catholic Church.

Sorry, beyond that I can't help you with the discrepency.
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 04:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
that this would be considered to be in error by the Roman Catholic Church.
.
Yes, a cardinal sin of an error!
:w:
Reply

czgibson
03-28-2007, 01:12 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
With all due respect, we have heard some of the best in atheist logic-- and the zen of a zero dividing isn't all that logical. Nor readily accepted by a rational mind! Unless you can come up with something better than the so called logical fallacies in the art of debate to disprove the existence of G-D.. are your arguments against his existence just as deficient!
Sorry, I couldn't make head or tail of that.

Many a "rational" persons can't grasp readily accepted logical concepts, from inverse of a c-cycle permuation to the making of cerebral spinal fluid, but that doesn't invalidate the concepts nor does it preclude from their existence.
What you've mentioned are a mathematical and a biological concept respectively. I don't know why you call them logical concepts.

True. But, not everyone who claims to be listening with logic is exactly doing that either. There are many non-believers in God who are just as illogical in reaching the views that they have, and yet false claim that they are the ones being rational, when in fact they just choose a different set of beliefs. They are in fact no more logical in reaching those conclusions than the theists.
I take your point. Atheism is a belief, and hasn't been proven with logic. Agnosticism is more logically rigorous, in that it sees no evidence to support the existence of god and so takes a neutral position. I believe atheism is true largely because I think it is far more likely that god was invented by humans than that he actually exists.

Peace
Reply

جوري
03-28-2007, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Sorry, I couldn't make head or tail of that.


Naturally.....

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
What you've mentioned are a mathematical and a biological concept respectively. I don't know why you call them logical concepts.


what is illogical about them?

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I take your point. Atheism is a belief, and hasn't been proven with logic. Agnosticism is more logically rigorous, in that it sees no evidence to support the existence of god and so takes a neutral position. I believe atheism is true largely because I think it is far more likely that god was invented by humans than that he actually exists.

Peace

Good for you!

Peace....
Reply

czgibson
03-28-2007, 03:19 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
what is illogical about them?
I'm not calling them illogical, I'm just unsure as to why you call them 'logical concepts' when they are from disciplines other than logic.

If you're talking about ideas that make sense or can be logically justified that some people haven't grasped or aren't aware of, then fine - of course the people's ignorance does nothing to invalidate the truth of these cocnepts. But that's surely different from the god-concept, which atheists are very much aware of and have often thought about deeply.

Peace
Reply

جوري
03-28-2007, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I'm not calling them illogical, I'm just unsure as to why you call them 'logical concepts' when they are from disciplines other than logic.

If you're talking about ideas that make sense or can be logically justified that some people haven't grasped or aren't aware of, then fine - of course the people's ignorance does nothing to invalidate the truth of these cocnepts. But that's surely different from the god-concept, which atheists are very much aware of and have often thought about deeply.

Peace
one of the definitions of logic as per Merriam Webster

Main Entry: log&#183;i&#183;cal
Pronunciation: 'l&#228;-ji-k&l
Function: adjective
1 a (1) : of, relating to, involving, or being in accordance with logic (2) : skilled in logic b : formally true or valid

So yes meant as (true or valid)! And yes many a sane, reflective persons can't accept or comprehend true and or valid concepts in regular fields, which others use in practice everyday!... Someone might arrive to the existence of G-D just through reflections of the mathematical impossibility of this world being a mere chance!

The probabilities of millions of positive coincidences is beyond anything they have learned in the fields of statistics, mathematics and probability leads them to conclude this universe wasn't a random mistake-- someone else in medicine might not understand who drives the aorticopulmonary septum to rotate a good 90 degrees to prevent transposition of the great vessels or why we have several pace makers in the heart to prevent it from going into arrest should one of them mal-function... or why the cardiac muscle is the only muscle in the body to not be affected by tetany.. or why even under hypovolemic shock the brain isn't affected until there is truly massive bleeding, as most of the blood gets shunted from the rest of the body to maintain brain function. It is logical-- an intelligent event that isn't haphazard is occuring and continues to occur--every day around the globe!

All of these natural perfect events happen on their own volition.... We know why it happens physiologically and even what it prevents-- what the outcome will be should it not happen exactly as described --but don't know what drove these events to to occur as such-- to proper function--by whom? .... these are a few and I mean very few examples of things that go right every day that you might not even think about.. some take for granted call it by some other name (mother nature) etc etc..

So frankly... it is perfectly logical for us to understand why there is a creator even by default if you will. It is too phenomenal to be the work of chance. One might later look to philosophy or religion to enhance or cement their conclusions.......this might not be easily digested by your person, because your brain works on a different plane... not as an insult to your ability to comprehend basic concepts in mathematics or medicine or other fields that might lead to the same conclusions--- as it comes easily to someone else-- it just makes perfect sense to them and not to you... So you telling someone--

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
"A logical argument will convince any rational person, no matter what their prior beliefs, as long as its premises are accepted".

I'd have to beg to differ--not everyone understands all that is logical as long as its premises are accepted!... besides that some concepts and premises are not even formally taught as a part of regular curriculum. All fields have a potential to branch into theology and philosophy... but that isn't what people pay or expect when they sign up for a class! ... its branches are outside of academia, on the basis that religion is ultimately a personal choice and not a coercion!..
And peace to you!
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-28-2007, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I take your point. Atheism is a belief, and hasn't been proven with logic. Agnosticism is more logically rigorous, in that it sees no evidence to support the existence of god and so takes a neutral position. I believe atheism is true largely because I think it is far more likely that god was invented by humans than that he actually exists.

Peace
Again, that is 100% a statement of theological belief (or disbelief in this case) and suffers from all the same problems that you apply to beliefs in God-- i.e. it itself is not a logical conclusion, the source of your conclusion lies within your own personal conception of what reality is or isn't.
Reply

czgibson
03-29-2007, 12:43 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
The probabilities of millions of positive coincidences is beyond anything they have learned in the fields of statistics, mathematics and probability leads them to conclude this universe wasn't a random mistake-- someone else in medicine might not understand who drives the aorticopulmonary septum to rotate a good 90 degrees to prevent transposition of the great vessels or why we have several pace makers in the heart to prevent it from going into arrest should one of them mal-function... or why the cardiac muscle is the only muscle in the body to not be affected by tetany.. or why even under hypovolemic shock the brain isn't affected until there is truly massive bleeding, as most of the blood gets shunted from the rest of the body to maintain brain function. It is logical-- an intelligent event that isn't haphazard is occuring and continues to occur--every day around the globe!
Thank you for giving the argument from design once again. Either this convinces a person or it doesn't, and we happen to be on opposite sides of that particular fence.

So frankly... it is perfectly logical for us to understand why there is a creator even by default if you will. It is too phenomenal to be the work of chance.
Who mentioned chance?

I'd have to beg to differ--not everyone understands all that is logical as long as its premises are accepted!...
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. If you're simply saying 'there are some things which are logically justifiable that not everyone understands', then fine, that is not a controversial statement. All I'm trying to do is to show that 'logic' is called upon by some theists to support their argument, and that if this was truly so then their argument would convince non-believers; as it is, that is not the case, so their arguments cannot be purely logical.

besides that some concepts and premises are not even formally taught as a part of regular curriculum.
Just to be clear - can you give examples of what you're talking about here?

All fields have a potential to branch into theology and philosophy... but that isn't what people pay or expect when they sign up for a class! ...
I'm not sure what point you're making here either, I'm afraid.

its branches are outside of academia, on the basis that religion is ultimately a personal choice and not a coercion!..
That's absolutely the way it should be.

Again, that is 100% a statement of theological belief (or disbelief in this case) and suffers from all the same problems that you apply to beliefs in God-- i.e. it itself is not a logical conclusion, the source of your conclusion lies within your own personal conception of what reality is or isn't.
I agree completely. Perhaps I haven't been making myself clear - if so, please forgive my ineptitude.

I am an atheist. Although I place a high value on logic, I don't think that atheism is logically rigorous, and I don't think there is any proof that atheism is true. It is simply my belief, just as religious people have their beliefs.

I think that since there is no evidence for the existence of god that comes up to the level of evidence we have for, say, the existence of trees, dreams, music or thought, it is reasonable to doubt his existence. According to the scientific method, that would be a rational position. Beyond this is mere belief, and that is where atheism is situated.

Although adherence to athiesm simply seems intuitively obvious to me, I don't want to pretend it's a view based entirely on rigorous logic. I do object, though, to religious opinions that claim to be 'clear', 'logical', 'rational' or to possess 'proof' of their assumptions where there is none, and that is why I responded negatively to a claim of 'logic' earlier on in this thread.

Peace
Reply

جوري
03-29-2007, 12:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Thank you for giving the argument from design once again. Either this convinces a person or it doesn't, and we happen to be on opposite sides of that particular fence.
What would you like to work with?
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. If you're simply saying 'there are some things which are logically justifiable that not everyone understands', then fine, that is not a controversial statement. All I'm trying to do is to show that 'logic' is called upon by some theists to support their argument, and that if this was truly so then their argument would convince non-believers; as it is, that is not the case, so their arguments cannot be purely logical.
we are in agreement with first part of that statement--
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Just to be clear - can you give examples of what you're talking about here?

I have tired of giving you examples...
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I'm not sure what point you're making here either, I'm afraid.
It isn't really the abstract work of Rothko... I am not sure what is so difficult for you to comprehend?

peace!
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-29-2007, 01:22 AM



I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&


format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
....
just the thoughts of this kafir. :)
----suggesstions pl. from Kafir ........errrrrrrr......many people believe it's a bad word. I heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ....it's the word for those who don't believe in One God & the Last Prophet (p) ...just as the words like non-Jew , non- Hindu etc.

I want to know if non-Muslims feel more comfortable with the word God instead of Allah ? I read in a revert story that even after embracing Islam , the bro was more comfortable with the word God .

If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.


[BANANA] i'm still safe - i only read the first paragraph![/BANANA]



---hahaha , so u think , ignorance is bliss ?


Reply

Muezzin
03-29-2007, 01:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman


----suggesstions pl. from Kafir ........errrrrrrr......many people believe it's a bad word. I heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ....it's the word for those who don't believe in One God & the Last Prophet (p) ...just as the words like non-Jew , non- Hindu etc.
The reason it has negative connotations right now is because certain Muslims publically spit the word like venom. I just say 'non-Muslim' and if people ask what 'Kafir' means, I tell them. It's a lot like the word 'Gentile' come to think of it.

I want to know if non-Muslims feel more comfortable with the word God instead of Allah ? I read in a revert story that even after embracing Islam , the bro was more comfortable with the word God .

If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.
'Allah' is simply the Arabic word for 'God', so whatever people are comfortable with should be okay. Allah/God will know what they mean anyhow :)
Reply

snakelegs
03-29-2007, 02:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

----suggesstions pl. from Kafir ........errrrrrrr......many people believe it's a bad word. I heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ....it's the word for those who don't believe in One God & the Last Prophet (p) ...just as the words like non-Jew , non- Hindu etc.
i don't know how typical i am for a non-muslim, but i have no problem with "kaffir" - like muezzin pointed out - it's just like "gentile" (goy). some people do find it offensive though, so it's best to use the more neutral term non-muslim.

I want to know if non-Muslims feel more comfortable with the word God instead of Allah ? I read in a revert story that even after embracing Islam , the bro was more comfortable with the word God .

If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.
i'm fine with allah. i'm not likely to use it myself, because it would feel unnatural, or phony. i do know that some non-muslims think allah is a different god.


---hahaha , so u think , ignorance is bliss ?
who knows? seriously, i do not like the use of fear or threat, as in the first post on this thread. when i read that, i read no further.
Reply

جوري
03-29-2007, 02:21 AM
contrary to popular opinion... I believe the after life is more about justice than it is of reward and punishment... but I'll go no further than that as I covered what that in some details on different threads-- and I have a more pressing things to do at the moment .........:-[ :-[ :-[

:w:
Reply

MustafaMc
03-29-2007, 03:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.
I sometimes use God in my discussions, but, if I don't use Allah, I try to preface it with "The One..." or otherwise qualify what I mean. The Christian concept of God is so intertwined with the Trinity - Father, Son (Jesus) and "the Holy Spirit" that I am inclined to not leave it open ended and vague.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-29-2007, 05:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.
I think one should always speak with one's audience in mind.

If you feel that Allah is the same God that others would mean by the term God and that they might mistakenly think that Allah is some other god. Then, unless it is actually offensive, I would recommend using the term God to speak of God.
Reply

جوري
03-29-2007, 06:02 AM
but what is the god that the audience speaks of? the porcelain god? the river god...some Indian gods? a forest god? some female goddess?

Allah is distinguished... can't be turned plural, can't be turned into the feminine as can be done in English... and is the way it first appeared in Semitic tongue...
If we pronounce the words "Allah" in Arabic and "Elahh (pronounced as 'El-aw')" in Aramaic, then we would hear almost the same exact word.

Religion came from that part of the world (the middle east) it came down in Semitic tongue -- not in English.... if the audience can't comprehend that... then I reckon they have bigger problems than just words being lost in translation...

I have never been big on extending dawa to anyone...

[28 56] It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance."

I have always thought it a privilege to be a Muslim not a right....
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-29-2007, 06:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
but what is the god that the audience speaks of? the porcelain god? the river god...some Indian gods? a forest god? some female goddess?
Hence why I began: "If you feel that Allah is the same God that others would mean by the term God ...."

You obviously would not want to use any term other than Allah. It is possible that Muslim Woman might. And, looking at the title of this thread, she was speaking to non-Muslims when she asked her question.
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-29-2007, 09:21 AM


Salaam/peace ,

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
...i have no problem with "kaffir" - like muezzin pointed out - it's just like "gentile" (goy). some people do find it offensive though, so it's best to use the more neutral term non-muslim..

--want to clarify something.......i don't use the word kafir , usually i write non-Muslim. U used the word kafir & i just used that jokingly....hope nobody misunderstood me :phew

who knows? seriously, i do not like the use of fear or threat, as in the first post on this thread. when i read that, i read no further.

----ummmm , was not paradise was also mentioned in the 1st para ? So, it was not that horrific i guess :statisfie

Reply

One Man Army
03-29-2007, 08:17 PM
looks like another post gets deleted. nothing was off topic on what i posted, a message was given 2 'kafirs' and so i gave my reply. and yet its deleted
Reply

Panther
03-30-2007, 02:34 AM
If you're going to try to convert people who don't believe in Islam to the Islamic way, don't exclusively use verses from your holy book.

How can you expect people who don't believe in Allah to convert just because you explained that your holy book states that "Allah says this", or "Allah says that"?

Elsewhere on the internet, this thread would be deemed "epic fail".

I have no problem with being called a "Kafir". If people will choose speak to me in a hateful way for what I believe, so be it. I make no apologies for who I am.
Reply

wilberhum
03-30-2007, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panther
If you're going to try to convert people who don't believe in Islam to the Islamic way, don't exclusively use verses from your holy book.

How can you expect people who don't believe in Allah to convert just because you explained that your holy book states that "Allah says this", or "Allah says that"?

Elsewhere on the internet, this thread would be deemed "epic fail".

I have no problem with being called a "Kafir". If people will choose speak to me in a hateful way for what I believe, so be it. I make no apologies for who I am.
Well stated.:thumbs_up
Reply

جوري
03-30-2007, 02:42 AM
???--no one has expectations from you.. no interest in converting you...no one has tread on your atheists forums speaking of Allah-- to really care what it would be called else where on the net ...... and Who here has singled you as kaffir or spoken to you hatefully? pls take a deep breath and get a glass of water.. and just calm down... I feel like you have gone into hysterics! ......

peace!
Reply

ranma1/2
06-04-2007, 05:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
are all of your really thinking about it?

I find it amazing to perceive that anyone can think there is no God once they consider all the amazing mechanisms which are so perfectly synchronized.


.... omg..
And i find it so amazing how quickly people will go with the god of the gaps approach.
Reply

ranma1/2
06-04-2007, 05:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
This is an unanswerable riddle that is a vain attempt at disproving the existence of Allah. I can use logic that proves Allah's existence to my mind, but I can't convince someone else who is insistent upon denial.

Let me use an analogy. Several years ago, I built a 12'x16' shed that started out as a neatly stacked pile of 2"x4"s, 2"x6"s, plywood, tin roofing, nails and cinder blocks. If I had the ability to throw all of these materials into the air over and over again, how many times would I have to throw them up before they came down exactly in the form of the finished shed that I "created" from scratch? My supposition is that it is mathematically impossible. How much more impossible the creation of even a single celled bacteria much less the entire universe by the Creator that we Muslim know as Allah.
sigh i know this is an old post but..
You clearly dont understand evolution if you are using this analogy. Evolution is both random and nonrandom. Random in the mutation and non random in selection.
Reply

جوري
06-06-2007, 12:11 AM
Oh, so now they can be non-random? ;D


here are your early posts for all, including yourself to see! they might have been binned but certainly not forgotten!-- nice seeing you sneak a post or two long after people have unsubscribed from a thread, so you can get the last word... You must be henpecked else where...;D

http://www.islamicboard.com/recycle-...olution-3.html
Reply

thirdwatch512
06-06-2007, 12:26 AM
thanks, but no thanks!
Reply

ranma1/2
06-06-2007, 07:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Oh, so now they can be non-random? ;D


here are your early posts for all, including yourself to see! they might have been binned but certainly not forgotten!-- nice seeing you sneak a post or two long after people have unsubscribed from a thread, so you can get the last word... You must be henpecked else where...;D

http://www.islamicboard.com/recycle-...olution-3.html
sigh... poor PA can you please grow up? We have already discussed this and all you cared to do was play word games. I wont discuss it with you again since all there will be is your general AH attacks and rudeness.
Reply

thirdwatch512
06-06-2007, 08:18 AM
purestambrosia - might i ask what a muslim thinks on science? like does the quran mention the age of the earth, how life started, and all of that?
Reply

Umar001
06-06-2007, 09:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
not a good approach.
at least not for me. the article starts right out with a threat and the use of fear - tactics i find very negative.
Have you ever spoken of the consequences no matter how frightening to deter someone from using the means which lead to such ends?

For example, showing a picture of a drug abuser to deter kids from taking drugs, used on us in the Uk when I was a kid, or shown the consequences in adverts of drinking and driving, I mean the goverment researches those things, they know that unless people visualise and see the outcome they will play it down in their mind.

How many a time have I said, "Oh man, if only I had knew it was gonna be like this before I done it."

format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
So Christianity and Judaism are acceptable?
If they were in submission to God, but times have moved and so they are not, the people of Moses, who we might now say are Jews, at the time of Moses were in submission, why? Because they followed that which was sent, but as soon as someone rejects something from God then how can that be submission? So when they rejected the next person sent to them they were not submitting, thus when they rejected Jesus peace be upon him, their submission ended, just as Satan's submission ended when he rejected to bow before Adam.

Thus the Christians now also are on the same path, with their submission not being complete because of their rejection of Muhammad.

So in the Islamic eyes they are not submitting, whether someone else believes they are that's their view, but I mean from the Islamic view.

format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
God has manifested Himself in the form of a human before, has He not? What makes the idea of Him coming down more than once as human so ridiculous? He struggled with Jacob and then renamed him Israel, as I remember. Or maybe that was just an angel God sent. Can't remember anymore...:exhausted
According to the Judeic accounts, who also have other incidents which do depict God as a human.

format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Kinda funny that someone who believes in God would ask for authentic proof of something religious, considering religion is based on faith. =P
Not really strange though, I mean, people mix up the whole belief/faith situation.

We don't have blind faith in everything, first we test it to see if it's true then if it is we have faith in what it tells us.

If someone gives me a bus time table I dont have blind faith in it that its the bus I am waiting for, I check the table, see the bus number on it, check the direction its going, when all the checks are made, then I place my faith in the timetable and wait at the bus stop.

format_quote Originally Posted by Count DeSheep
Bleh. I believe God can do whatever He wants, whenever He wants. I think that He has come down as human, multiple times apparently, to do things that we might not be able to understand. I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
Does God have a husband?
Reply

ranma1/2
06-06-2007, 12:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Have you ever spoken of the consequences no matter how frightening to deter someone from using the means which lead to such ends?

For example, showing a picture of a drug abuser to deter kids from taking drugs, used on us in the Uk when I was a kid, or shown the consequences in adverts of drinking and driving, I mean the goverment researches those things, they know that unless people visualise and see the outcome they will play it down in their mind.

How many a time have I said, "Oh man, if only I had knew it was gonna be like this before I done it."


...
THe biggest difference is we have evidence. There is no evidence of hell heaven or a god. Its like showing me a picture of no drug attic or showing me nothing of drugs. True they may be bad for me but if you have no evidence that they are just your word there is no reason to believe you.
Reply

جوري
06-06-2007, 05:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
sigh... poor PA can you please grow up? We have already discussed this and all you cared to do was play word games. I wont discuss it with you again since all there will be is your general AH attacks and rudeness.
lol.. yes word play is your come back for subjects of which you have no apparent knowledge yet have the audacity to come and preach!
It is never a pleasure to debate with you... just browsing your various reponses is enough for any keen discerning mind to know that you are indeed of shallow intellect and equally poor grammar!
Reply

جوري
06-06-2007, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
purestambrosia - might i ask what a muslim thinks on science? like does the quran mention the age of the earth, how life started, and all of that?
You may pose your question under the discover Islam section and on a separate thread. Or simply narrow your option by clicking the search option, as I am sure all your questions have already been answered at some point!

peace!
Reply

جوري
06-06-2007, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
. Its like showing me a picture of no drug attic or showing me nothing of drugs.
What is a drug attic? what does that sentence mean all together?
never mind I don't actually expect a heedful reply!
Reply

Phil12123
06-15-2007, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i'm fine with allah. i'm not likely to use it myself, because it would feel unnatural, or phony. i do know that some non-muslims think allah is a different god.
That is very true, that some non-Muslims think Allah is a different god. It might be a good subject for a new thread, "Is Allah the same god as the God of the Bible?" Personally, in my opinion, after hearing unending posts about Allah and how Allah is described by Muslims in this forum, he certainly does not match the description of the God of the Bible. So, if a Muslim wants to convert me, he should use "God" not "Allah."

But that won't be enough. Whatever he says about God had better not contradict what is taught about God in the Bible, which came BEFORE the Quran and has not been shown by any credible proof to be corrupted. Think about this: No Christian says the O.T. is corrupt and so all Jews should accept the truth of the N.T. which supercedes the O.T. Rather, the N.T. fulfills many of the prophecies of the O.T. and does not contradict it. Compare that to the Quran. In order to get you to believe it, they have to say the earlier revelation, the Bible, is corrupt, so all the contradictions between the Bible and the Quran must be resolved in favor of the Quran, in effect nullifying all that was said in the Bible. It is a masterpiece of Satan, the deceiver, to get anyone to believe that.

Anyone that would claim that the Bible is corrupt and something written some 500 or 600 years later (that contradicts it) is accurate would have the burden of proving by credible evidence that the Bible as we have it today is corrupt. The only way they could do that is to produce a first-century biblical manuscript written by the original author that says something substantially different than the Bible as we have it today. And I don't mean some phony "Gospel according to Barnabas." I mean, for example, the original Gospel of John that does NOT start with the verse that says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Well, they can't do it. So, as far as I'm concerned, they have not made their case, and I will stick with the Bible.
Reply

snakelegs
06-15-2007, 10:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Have you ever spoken of the consequences no matter how frightening to deter someone from using the means which lead to such ends?

For example, showing a picture of a drug abuser to deter kids from taking drugs, used on us in the Uk when I was a kid, or shown the consequences in adverts of drinking and driving, I mean the goverment researches those things, they know that unless people visualise and see the outcome they will play it down in their mind.

How many a time have I said, "Oh man, if only I had knew it was gonna be like this before I done it."
yes, but i don't really see this as comparable. you can show how drugs have destroyed people. with religion, it is different because you are dealing with the unseen. (by which i do not mean un-real).
since there is much that is positive about islam, why use the negative?
i know that some people respond to the fear message, but i am not one of them. different people respond to different strategies.
it may just be a thing with me, but my response is that someone is trying to manipulate me. it's sort of like george bush and all the red alerts.
Reply

snakelegs
06-15-2007, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
That is very true, that some non-Muslims think Allah is a different god. It might be a good subject for a new thread, "Is Allah the same god as the God of the Bible?" Personally, in my opinion, after hearing unending posts about Allah and how Allah is described by Muslims in this forum, he certainly does not match the description of the God of the Bible. So, if a Muslim wants to convert me, he should use "God" not "Allah."

But that won't be enough. Whatever he says about God had better not contradict what is taught about God in the Bible, which came BEFORE the Quran and has not been shown by any credible proof to be corrupted. Think about this: No Christian says the O.T. is corrupt and so all Jews should accept the truth of the N.T. which supercedes the O.T. Rather, the N.T. fulfills many of the prophecies of the O.T. and does not contradict it. Compare that to the Quran. In order to get you to believe it, they have to say the earlier revelation, the Bible, is corrupt, so all the contradictions between the Bible and the Quran must be resolved in favor of the Quran, in effect nullifying all that was said in the Bible. It is a masterpiece of Satan, the deceiver, to get anyone to believe that.

Anyone that would claim that the Bible is corrupt and something written some 500 or 600 years later (that contradicts it) is accurate would have the burden of proving by credible evidence that the Bible as we have it today is corrupt. The only way they could do that is to produce a first-century biblical manuscript written by the original author that says something substantially different than the Bible as we have it today. And I don't mean some phony "Gospel according to Barnabas." I mean, for example, the original Gospel of John that does NOT start with the verse that says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Well, they can't do it. So, as far as I'm concerned, they have not made their case, and I will stick with the Bible.
to each their own.
Reply

Redeemed
06-17-2007, 02:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
A Message To The Non-Muslims After which they are not Excused by Ignorance


Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem

Dear Reader,

The purpose of this message is to invite you to think of and contemplate about the real purpose of your life on this earth and where you will end up in the Hereafter. Will you end up in Paradise or in Hell-Fire? Please, take note, that when you have read this message, you are considered to have legislatively been given proof and been informed of the admonition of all messengers, and after which you will not be excused by ignorance:

Take note that Allah the Almighty is the One and Only God. He is Eternal. He is Absolute. He has not begotten and has not been begotten and no one is like Him.
  • Allah says: Say: He is Allah, the One; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him. Surah No.112, Verses 1-4.
  • Allah says: He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees. Surah No. 42, Verse No. 11.
Learn that Allah the Almighty is the Creator of all creatures. There is no god for this universe and what it holds but Allah.
  • Allah says: Allah is the Creator Of all things, and He is the Guardian and Disposer of all affairs. Surah No.39 Verse 62.
  • Allah says: Such is Allah, your Lord, The Creator of all things, there is no god but He: Then how you are deluded away from the Truth! Surah No.40, Verse No.62.
  • Allah says: To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and earth: To Allah do all matters return. Surah No.3 Verse No. 109.
Be informed that Allah the Almighty has created you for one single purpose which is to worship Him alone.
  • Allah says: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me. Surah No.51 Verse No. 56.
Allah says: And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to give zakat (i.e. charity given to the needy); and that is the Religion Right and Straight. Surah No.98, Verse No. 5.

Understand that it is out of sincerity and purity of worship to Allah to avoid worshipping the created whoever and whatever they may be.
  • Allah says: Certainly they disbelieve who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, - Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. Surah No. 5, Verse No. 72.
Allah says: Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god).” Surah No 72, Verse No. 20.

Allah says: Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is one God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner. Surah No. 18, Verse No. 110.

Allah says: Those to whom We have given the Book rejoice at what hath been revealed unto thee: but there are among the clans those who reject a part thereof. Say: "I am commanded to worship Allah, and not to join partners with Him. Unto Him do I call, and unto Him is my return. Surah No. 13, Verse No. 36.

Learn that he, who worships Allah joining with Him another whoever or whatever it may be, has associated partners with Allah and consequently his deeds will turn fruitless and he will be among the losers.
  • Allah says: But it has already been revealed to thee, - as it was to those before thee, - “if thou wert to join (gods with Allah), truly fruitless will be thy work (in life), and thou wilt surely be among the losers. Surah No. 29, Verse No. 65.

Allah says: This is the Guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His servants if they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them. Surah No. 6, Verse No.88.

Take note that Allah the Almighty sent all Prophets and Messengers to reinforce and remind people that there is no god but Allah. That is nothing is worthy of being worshipped but Allah.
  • Allah says: “For we assuredly sent amongst every people a Messenger, (with the command), “serve Allah, and eschew Evil”: of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). Surah No.16, Verse No. 36.

Allah says: Not a messenger did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.” Surah 21 Verse 25. There is no prophet who said to his people but: We sent Noah to his people. He said: “O my people! Worship Allah! Ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the Punishment of a dreadful Day! Surah No. 7, Verse No. 59.

Be informed that having faith and believing in all Prophets and Messengers is a must. If anyone rejects faith or doesn’t believe one Prophet or Messenger of Allah’s the Almighty, they are rejecting faith in Allah and disbelieving Him and all His Prophets and Messengers.
  • Allah says: “The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith, each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of his Messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 285.
Allah says: “‘Verily it has been revealed to us that the Chastisement (awaits) those who reject and turn away. Surah No. 20, Verse No. 48.

Allah says: And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?” Surah No.29, Verse No. 68.

Allah says: Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which we sent Our messengers: but soon shall they know. Surah No. 40, Verse No. 70.

Be informed that Muhammad bin Abudullah bin Abdullmutalib (Peace and Blessings of Allah Be Upon Him) (PBBUH ) is the Messenger of Allah, who was sent by Allah as mercy to the worlds, giving glad tidings and warnings and that he is the seal of all Prophets and messengers and there is no Prophet after him.
  • Allah says: “Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: many were the Messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 144.

Allah says: “Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures),-in the Taurat and the Gospel; - for he commands them what is just and Forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure): He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, - it is they who will prosper.” Surah No. 7, verse No. 157.


Allah says: “Say: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to who belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger. The unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words, follow him that (so) ye may be guided. Surah No. 7, Verse No. 158.


Allah says: “Now hath come to you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that you should suffer, ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful”. Surah No. 9, Verse No. 128.

Allah says: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets. And Allah has full knowledge of all things. Surah No. 33, Verse No. 40.

Allah says: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah… Surah No 48, Verse No. 29.

Allah says: And remember, Jesus, the Son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with Clear Signs, They said, “This is evident sorcery! Surah No.61, Verse No.6. Take note that Allah the Almighty revealed to Muhammad (PBBUH) the Holy Quran which is the word of Allah and which contains Guidance and Light for the worlds. It has alsoexplanation of everything.
  • Allah says: “Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down The Qur’an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong) so every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spent it in fasting, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you: He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. Surah No.2, Verse No.185.

Allah says: Say: “What thing is most weighty in evidence?” say: “Allah is witness between me and you; this Qur’an hath been revealed to me by inspiration. That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?” say: “Nay! I cannot bear witness! Surah No. 6, Verse No. 19.

Allah says: Verily this Quran doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the glad tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 9.

Allah says: “We send down (stage by stage) of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 82.

Allah says: “As for thee, thou receives theQuran from One All-Wise, All-Knowing.Surah No. 27, Verse No. 6.

Allah says: And We have explained to man, in this Quran, every kind of similitude: yet greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with gratitude! Surah No. 17, Verse No. 89.

Appreciate that the Holy Quran, which was revealed to Allah’s Prophet (PBBUH), has been the Greatest Evident Miracle Ever. It is continuing and everlastingly challenging all mankind gathered together to produce something like it or like one of its Surahs.
  • Allah says: “Say: ‘if the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.’ Surah No. 17, Verse No. 88.

Allah says: “And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witness or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if ye are truthful. Surah No. 2, Verse No. 23.

Be informed that Allah has ordered all mankind no matter what their colours, sexes; languages may be to believe in Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUP), follow him and obey him. He who obeys the Prophet (PBBUH) obeys Allah and consequently he will be on the right path; and; he who disobeysthe Prophet (PBBUH), disobeys Allah and consequently he will be on the wrong path.
  • Allah says: “Say: “Obey Allah and His Messenger”: but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject faith. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 32.

Allah says: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). Surah No. 8, Verse No. 20.

Allah says: He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah… Surah No. 4, Verse No. 80.

Allah says: “Say: “if ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 31. Take note that he who hears of Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUH) and neither believes in him nor follows him is a disbeliever in Allah, rejecting faith in Him andconsequently worthy to be tortured on the Day of Judgement.
  • Allah says: “We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: It is the Signs of Allah, which the wicked deny. Surah No. 6, Verse No. 33.

Allah says: On that day those who reject Faith and disobey the Messenger will wish that the earth were made one with them: but never will they hide a single fact from Allah! Surah No. 4, Verse No. 42.

Allah says: “If anyone contends with the Messenger even after Guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men to Faith, we shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- What an evil refuge! Surah No. 4, Verse No. 115.


The Prophet (PBBUH) says: “By the One in whose hands Muhammad’s soul is, if anyone, anywhere in the world, whether a Jew or Christian hears of me and dies without believing in my Message will definitely be amongst those in Hell-Fire. (Muslim)

Take note that the Religion before Allah is Islam and it is the religion of all Prophets and Messengers. No religion is accepted of anyone but Islam.
  • Allah says: And Abraham enjoined upon his sons and so did Jacob;” Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Me). Surah No. 2, Verse No.132.

Allah says: “
The Religion before Allah is Islam..Surah No. 3, Verse No. 19.

Allah says: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. Surah No. 3, Verse No.85.

Be informed that resurrection after death is coming and absolutely true; the Hour is coming and absolutely true and theaccountability on doomsday is absolutely true.
  • Allah says: “Lost indeed are they who treat it as a falsehood that they must meet Allah, - until on a sudden the Hour is on them, and they say: “Ah! Woe unto us that we neglected; for they bear their burdens on their backs, and evil indeed are the burdens that they bear? Surah No. 6 Verse No. 31.

Allah says: Verily the Hour is coming- I have almost kept it hidden- for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 15.

Allah says: And verily the Hour will come: there can be no doubt about it, or about (the fact) that Allah will raise up all who are in the graves. Surah No. 22, Verse No. 7.

Allah says: The Unbelievers say, “Never to us will come the Hour”: say, “Nay! But most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you;… Surah No 34, Verse No. 3.

Allah says: The Hour will certainly come: therein is no doubt: yet most men believe not. Surah No. 40, Verse No. No. 59.

Allah says: Again, on the Day of Judgement, will ye be raised up. Surah No. 23, Verse No. 16.

Allah says: Allah is never unjust in the least degree: if there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His Own self a great reward. Surah No. 4, Verse No. 40.

Allah says: Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it. Surah No. 99, Verses Nos. 7-8. Learn that Paradise and its bounties are absolutely true, therein everlasting goodness and bounties of which no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared Allah’s righteous believers.
  • Allah says: The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised! - beneath it flow rivers; perpetual is the fruits therof and the shade therein: such is the End of the Righteous and the End of the Unbelievers is the Fire. Surah No. 13, Verse No. 35.

Allah says: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow, every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: “Why, this what we were fed with before,” for that are given things in similitude; and they have therein spouses purified; and they abide therein (forever).” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 25.

Allah says: But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness- to them shall We give a Home in Heaven, - lofty mansions beneath which flow rivers, -to dwell therein for aye; an excellent reward for those who do (good)! Surah No. 29, Verse No. 58.

Allah says: Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that Day have joy in all that they do. Surah No. 36, Verse No. 55.

Allah says: (Here is) the description of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water unstaling; rivers of Milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Forgiveness from their Lord, (can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell fro ever in the Fire and be given to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? Surah No.47, Verse No. 15.

Allah says: Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous. Surah No.3 Verse No 133.


Allah says: “Be ye foremost (in seeking) forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth prepared for those who believe in Allah and His messengers: that is the Grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He pleases: and Allah is the Lord of Grace abounding. Surah No. 57, Verse No. 21.

Learn that the Hell fire is absolutely true; its torture in is true; and fierce. It has a torture that is extremely fierce, harsh, and perpetual. Its torture is something that no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared for those who associate partners with Allah and who made it false to believe in Allah.
  • Allah says: “Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger is the Fire of Hell? - Wherein they shall dwell. That is the supreme disgrace.Surah No.9, Verse No. 63.

Allah says: …on the Day of Judgement we shall gather them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 97.

Allah says:And We shall drive the sinners to hell, (like thirsty cattle driven down to water) Surah No. 19, Verse No. 86.

Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement), -for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live. Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74.

Allah says: But those who reject (Allah) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: not term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Chastisement be lightened for them. Thus do WE reward every ungrateful. Surah No. 35, Verse No. 36.

Allah says: “The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in groups: until, when they arrive there, its gates will be opened. And its Keepers will say, “Did not messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” The answer will be: “True: but the Decree of Chastisement has been proved true against the Unbelievers! Surah No. 39, Verse No. 71.

Take note that if you die believing in the oneness of God and in Muhammad (PBBUH), Allah’s last Messenger, you will be amongst those who will be saved and led into Paradise to live in its bounties for ever.
  • Allah says: “But such as come to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds, for them are ranks exalted.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 75.
Whereas, if you die associating partners with Allah, disbelieving in Him and rejecting faith in Him, you will be among thosewhowill be in Hell Fire for ever and ever.
  • Allah says: “But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raisehim up blind on the Day of Judgement.SurahNo. 20, Verse 124.

Allah says: “And who does more wrong than one to whom are recited the Signs of his Lord, and who then turns way therefrom? Verily from those who transgress We shall exact (due) retribution.” Surah No. 32, Verse no. 22.

Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement),-for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74

Allah says: “…and if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 217

Be informed that there is no force in religion; the right path is clear and the wrong path is clear. So after you have read and thought of and contemplated about the above message, you will not be excused by ignorance. As the warnings and message of all messengers have now reached you, you will be brought to account and be accountable on the Day of Judgment when there is no benefit for money or children but only for those who will come with good deeds and clear hearts. Finally take note that the devils of mankind and Jinn’s and the wicked of the learned among them are scheming day and night to prevent you from listening to this message and to any other message that speaks of the Truth.

We pray to Allah that He helps you find the right path and guide you to what pleases Him

Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds


PathtoParadise
God is all-powerful. It is through Jesus God works. God made everything through him. And there was not anything made that was not made by him and for him whom we have to do with. God is not powerless to forgive sin it is just another work that he does through Jesus. If God chooses to forgive in this way, who are we to say He cannot or how can we expect to receive forgiveness if we don’t meet God on his terms? In order to reject this message, you come against all the authorities in the Bible which include prophets and apostles. If I ACCEPT this message, I only reject one apostle or prophet as being God’s messenger. If you want to go by logic, the odds are in my favor, but I don’t go by logic or lean to my understanding. I walk and live by faith. It is God who has shown me whom I have to do with - not another man. I hear from God for myself about what to believe. Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets.” If you haven’t heeded his advice, you can rest assure to fall victim to it. I speak from experience. It happened to me. I will now try every spirit to see if it is from God and not lean to my understanding. I will hear from God for myself. I believe that I can do that; therefore, I do.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-17-2007, 03:12 PM
Out of curiosity, when you say you heared it from God yourself, do you mean trough the Bible, or trough dreams, or trough suggestive signs/events in your life, or telephaticly talked to you, or some other means of communication?
Reply

Redeemed
06-17-2007, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Out of curiosity, when you say you heared it from God yourself, do you mean trough the Bible, or trough dreams, or trough suggestive signs/events in your life, or telephaticly talked to you, or some other means of communication?
Good questions. The answer is all of the above except for telepathy. God has spoken to me through his word. When I believed it, he gave me a dream that confirmed it; in fact, I did a painting of the dream that was displayed in the international museum of art in El Paso Texas and the Suffolk museum of art in Virginia. It is pasted as my avatar. He has given me a vision that I am his child by opening the sky and beaming down a light into my eyes straight to my soul bearing a witness with my spirit that I am his. I have heard him speak to me through his small still voice and through the prophecy of others, but his written word is all he has been giving me lately. For me to deny that Jesus is The Christ the Son of the living God is worse than asking me to deny I exist. That is why I said it is important for you to hear from God for yourself not through some apostle(s). You were designed as a spiritual being also who is able to hear from God. Prayer is not just you speaking your peace, but it is also letting God speak his directly to you not through someone else only, but your spirit and God's must line up before you should accept what a prophet says. THERE ARE MANY FALSE PROPHETS AND JESUS TELLS US TO BEWARE OF THEM. IT WE DONT, WE WILL BE DECEIVED WITH NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-17-2007, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
Good questions. The answer is all of the above except for telepathy. God has spoken to me through his word. When I believed it, he gave me a dream that confirmed it; in fact, I did a painting of the dream that was displayed in the international museum of art in El Paso Texas and the Suffolk museum of art in Virginia. It is pasted as my avatar. He has given me a vision that I am his child by opening the sky and beaming down a light into my eyes straight to my soul bearing a witness with my spirit that I am his. I have heard him speak to me through his small still voice and through the prophecy of others, but his written word is all he has been giving me lately. For me to deny that Jesus is The Christ the Son of the living God is worse than asking me to deny I exist. That is why I said it is important for you to hear from God for yourself not through some apostle(s). You were designed as a spiritual being also who is able to hear from God. Prayer is not just you speaking your peace, but it is also letting God speak his directly to you not through someone else only, but your spirit and God's must line up before you should accept what a prophet says. THERE ARE MANY FALSE PROPHETS AND JESUS TELLS US TO BEWARE OF THEM. IT WE DONT, WE WILL BE DECEIVED WITH NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
Well, see the reaons I ask. If you replace "Bible" by "Qur'an" in that list then I would also say that I turned to Islam because of all of those things accept teh telephaty thing. And if you ask a jew, he might say the same, and if you ask a budhist and a sikh and so on.

So there's only 3 possible explenations the way I see it:
A) God guides different persons towards differnt paths. I think neither of us would agree on that possibility since most faiths seem to strongly condemn other faiths.
B) People have a tendency to misinterpret these divine sings. Which is kind of like saying: God is not good in communicating (astagfurAllah).
C) Some people think they are guided by God while they are in fact guided by Shaytan.

Now I suppose that as a christian you believe in option C, that we muslims are guided by shaytan, but as a muslim I would believe that christians are guided to some extend by shaytan since the message of prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) has been distorted. So, the millian dollar question, by what authority is your view better then mine?
Reply

wilberhum
06-17-2007, 07:43 PM
So there's only 3 possible explenations the way I see it:
It is obvious that there is at least four. :skeleton:
Reply

Redeemed
06-17-2007, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Well, see the reaons I ask. If you replace "Bible" by "Qur'an" in that list then I would also say that I turned to Islam because of all of those things accept teh telephaty thing. And if you ask a jew, he might say the same, and if you ask a budhist and a sikh and so on.

So there's only 3 possible explenations the way I see it:
A) God guides different persons towards differnt paths. I think neither of us would agree on that possibility since most faiths seem to strongly condemn other faiths.
B) People have a tendency to misinterpret these divine sings. Which is kind of like saying: God is not good in communicating (astagfurAllah).
C) Some people think they are guided by God while they are in fact guided by Shaytan.

Now I suppose that as a christian you believe in option C, that we muslims are guided by shaytan, but as a muslim I would believe that christians are guided to some extend by shaytan since the message of prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) has been distorted. So, the millian dollar question, by what authority is your view better then mine?
I understand all you say, and to some point, I actually agree; however, I don't believe it is possible that so many prophets and apostles have a distorted message especially when it is a tetimony to what many have seen and heard. Like I mentioned earlier Muhammad is the main messenger that supports a distored view of the Bible. Since Muhammad doubted his own revelations as being from God, I doubt them even more. It is more likely that one will be mistaken rather than many prophets and apostles supporting the same message about Jesus including Jesus himself.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-18-2007, 01:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I understand all you say, and to some point, I actually agree; however, I don't believe it is possible that so many prophets and apostles have a distorted message especially when it is a tetimony to what many have seen and heard.
Sorry I haven't been 100% clear, what I meant was not that Jesus (peace be upon him) brought a distorted message. What I meant was that the message was distorted after him.

Like I mentioned earlier Muhammad is the main messenger that supports a distored view of the Bible. Since Muhammad doubted his own revelations as being from God, I doubt them even more. It is more likely that one will be mistaken rather than many prophets and apostles supporting the same message about Jesus including Jesus himself.
the doubt he had at first was from the shock of meeting djibriel. I think anyone would be shocked from such an event.

You say that many prophets support the message of Jesus (peace be upon him) including Jesus himself (peace be upon, him). But how can that be? According to Christians there has been no prophet after Jesus (peace be upon him). So how can another prophet have supported the message? And the Bible was compiled and partially written after Jesus, peace be upon him so how could he have supported it?

I guess you mean other prophets confirmed it because it was similar to what they said. In that case, you could say the Qur'an is also confirmed, because it also says the same thing as earlier prophets say. The only things it contradicts Christianity on are things like the trinity, or celibacy. And those things are only derived from very vague verses of the NT and is nowhere to be found in the OT. In fact all other prophets spoke of God closer in terms to the Islamic monotheism rather then of a Christian trinity.
Reply

Amadeus85
06-18-2007, 01:22 AM
I'm Christian, but I accept Muhammad as a messenger/prophet of God.

You cant be a christian and in the same time accept Muhammad as the prophet of God. Just like you cant be muslim and believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God.
For christians Muhammad was just a historical person, like Julius Cesear or Napoleon, who created religion called islam using some christian and jewish beliefs.

I said this simply to clarify some things.
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-18-2007, 01:36 AM
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&


format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
You cant be a christian and in the same time accept Muhammad as the prophet of God. ...

haha , i posted about a Christian lady in random interesting news : She wants to die as 100 % Chrisitian & 100 % Muslim :rollseyes


don't know how it's possible but she believes she can do it :p


Verses of the day :



Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists,


and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say:


We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.


And when they hear what has been revealed to the apostle you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize;


they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth).



(Al-Ma'idah 5: 82- 83)
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-18-2007, 02:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is obvious that there is at least four. :skeleton:
I can think of 5.

D, God is adequate at communication but WANTS people to misunderstand his message. This seems the logical choice if God is all powerful.

E, God does not exist and all of this is created by man.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-18-2007, 02:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Verse of the day :

And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say:
Our Lord! We believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth)
(Al-Ma'idah 5:83)
I thought it would be benefisial to add previous verse, as to reveal who this verse is directed to:

Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.(5:82)
And when they hear what has been revealed to the messenger you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth).(5:83)

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I can think of 5.

D, God is adequate at communication but WANTS people to misunderstand his message. This seems the logical choice if God is all powerful.

E, God does not exist and all of this is created by man.
Ok, I stand corrected, the reason I didn't added those two was because of my bias.

We believe shaytan has no power to mislead us unless God allows it to. So that's why I didn't made this distinction between my option 3 and your option D.

As for E, although my second option acknowledge the existence of God, I think you could see how I didn't bother to make a difference between those two.
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-18-2007, 02:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Sorry I haven't been 100% clear, what I meant was not that Jesus (peace be upon him) brought a distorted message. What I meant was that the message was distorted after him.
And after months on this forum, reading post after post that claims to have "proven" this point to me, that the "true" message of Jesus was distorted by Paul and others, I have yet to read anything that is even near convincing of this viewpoint. I hear that Islam is a "logical" and "rational" religion. I don't see that to be true at all. From where I stand, it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but every attempt of even the most learned of my Islamic brothers to share this story with me comes across as nothing more than an attempt to sell snake oil as medicine, and often even less.

I haven't lost any respect for those individuals who follow Islam. There are parts of it that I even deeply appreciate. But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.
Reply

Redeemed
06-18-2007, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Sorry I haven't been 100% clear, what I meant was not that Jesus (peace be upon him) brought a distorted message. What I meant was that the message was distorted after him.



the doubt he had at first was from the shock of meeting djibriel. I think anyone would be shocked from such an event.

You say that many prophets support the message of Jesus (peace be upon him) including Jesus himself (peace be upon, him). But how can that be? According to Christians there has been no prophet after Jesus (peace be upon him). So how can another prophet have supported the message? And the Bible was compiled and partially written after Jesus, peace be upon him so how could he have supported it?

I guess you mean other prophets confirmed it because it was similar to what they said. In that case, you could say the Qur'an is also confirmed, because it also says the same thing as earlier prophets say. The only things it contradicts Christianity on are things like the trinity, or celibacy. And those things are only derived from very vague verses of the NT and is nowhere to be found in the OT. In fact all other prophets spoke of God closer in terms to the Islamic monotheism rather then of a Christian trinity.
First of all, there have been no prophets that ever acted the way Muhammad did about there revelation. I believe to say the prophet was shocked instead of doubted the source of his visions and dreams is a distortion of what the truth is about what really happened. The Old Testament is replete with the promise of Jesus and his purpose. As far as the celibacy thing is concerned, that is big with Catholic priest and not necessary for salvation. But when it comes to Jesus being the Son of the living God, there can be no compromise and that is where we clash and draw the line. If you don't believe that Jesus is he, with all do respect, you will experience a Christless eternity, and since Jesus is the only way to God, well, do the math.:)
Until He comes, Peace
Reply

Redeemed
06-18-2007, 04:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And after months on this forum, reading post after post that claims to have "proven" this point to me, that the "true" message of Jesus was distorted by Paul and others, I have yet to read anything that is even near convincing of this viewpoint. I hear that Islam is a "logical" and "rational" religion. I don't see that to be true at all. From where I stand, it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but every attempt of even the most learned of my Islamic brothers to share this story with me comes across as nothing more than an attempt to sell snake oil as medicine, and often even less.

I haven't lost any respect for those individuals who follow Islam. There are parts of it that I even deeply appreciate. But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.
That has happened to me too. The more I listen and read about the Qur'an draws me closer to the Bible by making me appreciate even more than before. It is written that all things work together for the good to them that love the lord and are called according to his purpose.
Reply

Phil12123
06-18-2007, 07:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And after months on this forum, reading post after post that claims to have "proven" this point to me, that the "true" message of Jesus was distorted by Paul and others, I have yet to read anything that is even near convincing of this viewpoint. I hear that Islam is a "logical" and "rational" religion. I don't see that to be true at all. From where I stand, it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but every attempt of even the most learned of my Islamic brothers to share this story with me comes across as nothing more than an attempt to sell snake oil as medicine, and often even less.

I haven't lost any respect for those individuals who follow Islam. There are parts of it that I even deeply appreciate. But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I understand all you say, and to some point, I actually agree; however, I don't believe it is possible that so many prophets and apostles have a distorted message especially when it is a testimony to what many have seen and heard. Like I mentioned earlier Muhammad is the main messenger that supports a distored view of the Bible. Since Muhammad doubted his own revelations as being from God, I doubt them even more. It is more likely that one will be mistaken rather than many prophets and apostles supporting the same message about Jesus including Jesus himself.
I agree whole-heartedly with both of the above. I will go even further, though, to say this, with all due respect for all Muslims on this board and everywhere:

If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

I think the main reason Muslims view what the Bible says as "distorted" is that it contradicts what they have initially accepted as the truth of Islam and the Quran. Obviously, if Muslims believed the Bible first, that it is true and accurate in all that it relates, they would have a problem when they came to the Quran, which has a totally different message, when it comes to the nature of God and how a person gets to heaven (the Trinity and the Atonement). But since the Bible came first, it seems to me anyone really wanting to know the truth would have to first be shown how the first revelation is distorted BEFORE even looking at the later revelation. The problem with that is there is no proof of distortion. No one can show what the Bible said before the alleged distortion occurred, nor how it occurred, nor when it occurred, or that it occurred.

God is a God of TRUTH. Satan is the father of lies. With two diametrically opposed holy books saying opposite things as being the Word of God, they can't both be right in those two crucial areas, the nature of God and the way a person gets to heaven. They might both be wrong, but they can't both be right. If ONE is true, the other is a lie. If God is the author of one, Satan is the author of the other. Christians and Muslims each believe their respective holy book is the TRUTH authored by God (in the ultimate sense). The conclusion is inescapable that they also believe that the other's "holy book" is UNTRUE and the work of Satan.

In addition the lack of evidence of the Bible's message being distorted, the Bible itself is a work that flows in its theme across multiple human authors (prophets, apostles, etc.) and over thousands of year, showing a consistency of plan and purpose, and showing the divine hand of God throughout. The O.T. is fulfilled in the N.T., which concludes with a warning against anyone adding to it. All the truth of the N.T. is for all people and for all time and needs no new revelation from any new prophets. All the prophecies concerning Christ in the O.T. find their fulfillment in the Christ of the N.T. The N.T. concludes with a vision of the end of this earth and the coming of a new heavens and a new earth and eternity. The Quran, on the other hand, serves no purpose which is consistent with O.T. and N.T. There just is NO indication that the God of the O.T. and N.T. is the same as Allah and giving additional revelation which becomes the Quran. Where and why would it fit into the N.T. picture which covers everything all the way to eternity? Again, the message of the N.T. was for all people ("go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" includes Jew and Gentile---everyone) for all time.

What I said in another thread is quotable here: Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) has supposedly ended up in Islam. But Islam is a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not consistent with O.T. and N.T., not right, and just plain not of God. And it doesn't even make sense.
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-18-2007, 09:47 AM
Salaam/ peace ;


Grace Seeker : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.


---well , I guess , Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p) .


But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.

That’s funny ….care to explain a little more ?


Phil12123 : If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.





Really ???? A human being can beat God Almighty in fighting…..this is logical ?????? Why not ask any non – Muslim / non- Christian about the story where God was beaten by a Prophet ? Let me know which judge / jury board u find gives ans that yap , it’s a logical story.



I seriously request u to know about the ans from a neutral person. Surely , we are not going to change our faith after hearing the ans …I m just curious to know , how a logical person can accept this story that human being are more powerful than God.


But when it comes to Jesus being the Son of the living God, there can be no compromise
Yes , u r right , there is no compromise....to u , denying this is blasphemy , to us uttering this is blasphemy.



Christians are making simple statement of Jesus (p) very complicated. Jesus ( p) openly declared that "My Father is greater than I." but Christians are denying to accept this simple truth.



May be , when Christian will be ready to accept the simple matter as simple & won’t make the matters complicated , then the differences between Muslims & Christians will be reduced.


Really , sometimes it’s so hard to visit this forum :cry: :(

May be , we should visit halal fun only for the time being



Verse of the day :


And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful.



But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers ( 2: 23-24)
Reply

Redeemed
06-18-2007, 12:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
I agree whole-heartedly with both of the above. I will go even further, though, to say this, with all due respect for all Muslims on this board and everywhere:

If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

I think the main reason Muslims view what the Bible says as "distorted" is that it contradicts what they have initially accepted as the truth of Islam and the Quran. Obviously, if Muslims believed the Bible first, that it is true and accurate in all that it relates, they would have a problem when they came to the Quran, which has a totally different message, when it comes to the nature of God and how a person gets to heaven (the Trinity and the Atonement). But since the Bible came first, it seems to me anyone really wanting to know the truth would have to first be shown how the first revelation is distorted BEFORE even looking at the later revelation. The problem with that is there is no proof of distortion. No one can show what the Bible said before the alleged distortion occurred, nor how it occurred, nor when it occurred, or that it occurred.

God is a God of TRUTH. Satan is the father of lies. With two diametrically opposed holy books saying opposite things as being the Word of God, they can't both be right in those two crucial areas, the nature of God and the way a person gets to heaven. They might both be wrong, but they can't both be right. If ONE is true, the other is a lie. If God is the author of one, Satan is the author of the other. Christians and Muslims each believe their respective holy book is the TRUTH authored by God (in the ultimate sense). The conclusion is inescapable that they also believe that the other's "holy book" is UNTRUE and the work of Satan.

In addition the lack of evidence of the Bible's message being distorted, the Bible itself is a work that flows in its theme across multiple human authors (prophets, apostles, etc.) and over thousands of year, showing a consistency of plan and purpose, and showing the divine hand of God throughout. The O.T. is fulfilled in the N.T., which concludes with a warning against anyone adding to it. All the truth of the N.T. is for all people and for all time and needs no new revelation from any new prophets. All the prophecies concerning Christ in the O.T. find their fulfillment in the Christ of the N.T. The N.T. concludes with a vision of the end of this earth and the coming of a new heavens and a new earth and eternity. The Quran, on the other hand, serves no purpose which is consistent with O.T. and N.T. There just is NO indication that the God of the O.T. and N.T. is the same as Allah and giving additional revelation which becomes the Quran. Where and why would it fit into the N.T. picture which covers everything all the way to eternity? Again, the message of the N.T. was for all people ("go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" includes Jew and Gentile---everyone) for all time.

What I said in another thread is quotable here: Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) has supposedly ended up in Islam. But Islam is a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not consistent with O.T. and N.T., not right, and just plain not of God. And it doesn't even make sense.
Amen, Amen, Amen
Reply

Phil12123
06-18-2007, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Grace Seeker : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.

---well, I guess, Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p).
The point is that they'd have more than ONE man (Jesus) to speak against. In fact, none of the writings of the NT were written by Him. Jews would have to contend with Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude. And all of them are consistent in proclaiming the truth they write. Both OT and NT give the standard, "that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." The NT has at least 8 witnesses. We don't have to take the word of ONE man, Muhammad, that he really was visited by Gabriel, etc. So it is much easier to conclude that one man was wrong in what he wrote rather than 8 wrong.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Phil12123: If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

Really???? A human being can beat God Almighty in fighting…..this is logical ?????? Why not ask any non–Muslim / non-Christian about the story where God was beaten by a Prophet? Let me know which judge / jury board u find gives ans that yap, it’s a logical story.

I seriously request u to know about the ans from a neutral person. Surely, we are not going to change our faith after hearing the ans …I m just curious to know,how a logical person can accept this story that human being are more powerful than God.
What? "...beat God Almighty in fighting"? What "fighting"???? Where does that thought come from? I think it is the Muslim mindset. For Jesus (God in the flesh) to go to the cross and lay down His life in payment of the sins of the world, is so strange to the Muslim mindset that it equals defeat of God by His human enemies. So it is considered illogical and the story is concocted that God in heaven "rescued" Jesus to defeat His enemies. Right? Well, that is wrong, wrong, wrong. Though His spirit was willing and His flesh weak, Jesus voluntarily came to earth for that very purpose, to lay down His life to pay mankind's sin debt. He said,

John 10:
11. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
12. "But he who is a hireling and not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
13. "The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
14. "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15. "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17. "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18. "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.''

Is that so hard to understand? There is no defeat, except of Satan. Hebrews 2:14 --- Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Christians are making simple statement of Jesus (p) very complicated. Jesus (p) openly declared that "My Father is greater than I." but Christians are denying to accept this simple truth.

Maybe, when Christian will be ready to accept the simple matter as simple & won’t make the matters complicated, then the differences between Muslims & Christians will be reduced.
Yes, Jesus makes a simple statement there in John 14:28, and Christians believe it, IN ITS CONTEXT. We don't try to avoid it by saying it has been distorted or corrupted. NONE of the NT has. But what does it mean? S/He that has ears to hear, let him/her hear. Let's look at that verse in context:

John 14:
24. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
25. "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
27. "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28. "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
29. "And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe."

In context, Jesus is speaking of His ascension to the Father after His death and resurrection. He says these words, however, while still in the earthly body He assumed when "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). At that time, He had taken on "the form of a servant" and had come "in the likeness of men," all before He had gone to the cross (Phil. 2:7-8). Prior to that, He was "in the form of God...equal with God" (Phil. 2:6), but He "made Himself of no reputation" and "humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." We are then told, "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:9-10).

So, while in His humbled state in the form of a servant/slave, Jesus could well say that "My Father is greater than I." Greater in terms of position and glory (at that time), but NOT in terms of essence, substance, or nature. In that state, Jesus prayed in the Garden before His crucifixion, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). When He became flesh He temporarily set aside that glory and position equal with the Father and came to earth in total submission to His Father. However, when He went back to the Father, He was "highly exalted" and regained that glory and position, so, He tells His disciples, "You should rejoice that I go to My Father." Of course, at that time, the disciples didn't understand any of that; they didn't even understand why He had to lay down His life and not set up His earthly kingdom right then. Today, we have the whole, big picture and can understand it all, if we choose to.
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-18-2007, 04:24 PM



Salaam/ peace ;


format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
[B]The point is that they'd have more than ONE man (Jesus) to speak against.
-----ok , take example of Jesus (p) only ....what proof do u have except ur holy book that he ever existed ?




What? "...beat God Almighty in fighting"? What "fighting"???? Where does that thought come from? I think it is the Muslim mindset.
I m asking about Prophet Jacob's (p) fighting with God Almighty......don't u belive in that story ???


[B]Yes, Jesus makes a simple statement there in John 14:28, and Christians believe it, IN ITS CONTEXT....... and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
----huh .........Jesus (p) repeatedly told u it's the Father who sent him , it's the order of father to speak out.....thus , in ur Bible , it's clear that God is more powerful than Jesus (p) .....ALWAYS.......God is always giving orders ......Jesus (p) never oredered God to do anything or did he ?????



So, while in His humbled state in the form of a servant/slave, Jesus could well say that "My Father is greater than I."

----is there any verse in Bible -----My son is greater than I ????



.....Greater in terms of position and glory (at that time), but NOT in terms of essence, substance, or nature.
And who created these complicated explanations ......Jesus (p) ?????


Reply

czgibson
06-18-2007, 06:18 PM
Greetings,

Sorry to interrupt - I'd like to address this point:

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
ok , take example of Jesus (p) only ....what proof do u have except ur holy book that he ever existed ?
Evidence that Jesus did exist is not hard to find. Aside from the NT, he's mentioned in the works of Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. None of these guys were followers of Jesus, and Pliny actively persecuted Christians. Why would they lie?

Peace
Reply

Phil12123
06-18-2007, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
---ok, take example of Jesus (p) only ....what proof do u have except ur holy book that he ever existed?
What? Muslims don't deny Jesus' existence. Why are YOU? Have you jumped over and joined the atheists here? Even if the Quran is not the word of God, the fact that it mentions Jesus, even as just a prophet, should be enough to tell you He existed, unless the whole book is a work of fiction.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
I'm asking about Prophet Jacob's (p) fighting with God Almighty......don't u believe in that story ???
Sure, but what does that story have to do with anything we were talking about?

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
----huh .........Jesus (p) repeatedly told u it's the Father who sent him, it's the order of father to speak out.....thus, in ur Bible, it's clear that God is more powerful than Jesus (p) .....ALWAYS.......God is always giving orders ......Jesus (p) never oredered God to do anything or did he ?????
When Jesus left heaven and humbled Himself (lowered Himself) and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, He was in perfect and total submission to the will of His Father. He came to do the Father's will, to say what the Father wanted Him to say, to do what the Father wanted Him to do, and He said that He said and did only what the Father wanted Him to. It is not a matter of POWER, but a matter of submission and humility. Of course, in that situation, He is not ordering the Father around, nor is He ever. No member of the Godhead "orders" another; they are in perfect harmony. There are no power struggles. You're using human reasoning to even come up with such a question.


format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
----is there any verse in Bible -----My son is greater than I ????
No, of course not. In essence, substance and nature, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal. They are the ONE God. The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position in order to take on flesh and die for our sins.


format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
And who created these complicated explanations ......Jesus (p) ?????
Who created God? God is "complicated" because He is God. It is amazing that He lets us know as much as He does, concerning His nature, etc. For us to really understand God is like two ants talking to each other and explaining humans. If somehow we could tell the ants a few things about us, they still wouldn't really have the capacity to know much, would they?
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-18-2007, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/ peace ;
Grace Seeker:
it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.

---well , I guess , Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p) .
Indeed the Jews on this board would agree with you in making that statement.


format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Grace Seeker:
But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.
That’s funny ….care to explain a little more ?
Before I came here, I knew enough about Islam to have respect for it, it's people, and those things that they respected including Mohammad (pbuh) and its scriptures, the Qur'an. Well, I try to maintain that respect. But when I find that people discount the New Testamanet for some of the reasons I see expressed here -- that Paul supposedly wrote it, that what we have are people quoting Jesus not Jesus' own writings, that they believe it was originally written in Greek, or because there are available today multiple copies in English that don't all say the same thing -- then I have to say that they are not using good science nor good logic in formulating their objections to it. Those views are simply not true and no unbiased atheistic historian would make those claims, they are generated by a predisposition against the New Testament. And then it is pointed out how the Qur'an testifies against the New Testament, and given what I find to be a solidly credible New Testament, if the Qur'an really is so solidly disputing the New Testament as being corrupted, that alone proves its falsehood or invention. Next I find the way that Islamic scholars act like priests preserving their rituals to be parralleled only in the worst of some of what Christianity has done. For example, the idea of music being banned is something that I see Muhammad showed great latitude on, and there are some scholars that seem to say the same as I on this issue, but their voices are drowned out by many others. And when these things are explained to me, I don't get it. What I do get is that it is believed that Allah was against it and so we Muslims are to be against it to. I get that concept, but I don't find it as supported by the actual scriptures as people say that it is, and thus I think that what is being upheld is not revealed truth, but mankind's traditional interpretation of that truth.

Surely, there are plenty of places in Christianity where this last point could be levelled against Christianity as well as against Islam and most religions. But I find that it is the case not just with small issues such as music, but big things such as the Islamic view of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians.

The more I read and hear talk, the more it looks to me like Muhammad tried to do the best he could to share what he must have picked up in his travels from Jews and Christians and then he coaleased them into some other sort of theology, much like Joseph Smith invented Mormonism. In both cases we have the private revelation that when made public comes tantilziingly close, but not identical to previous revelations. In order to explain the differences, both casts the original revelations as corrupted which their new revelation sets right. There is not explanation of as to how or why the original revelation is corrupted. And indeed in the first telling of these new revelations there is no mentioning of that corruption. The allleged corruption is only mentioned later when the new revelations are questioned or come under attack.

It's too bad that Muhammad was illiterate and that he did not have regular counsel from a competent priest with a Bible in hand. If he had those things, I expect he might have accomplished even more than he did. He might have even received messages from God initially that awakened him from the pagan culture that he was raised in to an awareness of God and a desire to serve him. But it appears to me that he went off on his own, without the continued direction of the Holy Spirit. And the result is just plain bad theology. Close to the truth, but not the real truth, and that is why I can never accept it as being from God.



format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Phil123
But when it comes to Jesus being the Son of the living God, there can be no compromise
Yes , u r right , there is no compromise....to u , denying this is blasphemy , to us uttering this is blasphemy.
This is something that we all appear to agree on.


format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Christians are making simple statement of Jesus (p) very complicated. Jesus ( p) openly declared that "My Father is greater than I." but Christians are denying to accept this simple truth.
Christians do not deny that the Father is greater than Jesus. Indeed, we affirm that Jesus submitted himself fully to the Father. What we deny is that the Father and the Son are not of one essence. We do not deny that there are distinctions between the three persons, nor do claim that there is a balance of economy between the three persons. We only deny that these three persons are more than one divine being.



format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
May be , when Christian will be ready to accept the simple matter as simple & won’t make the matters complicated , then the differences between Muslims & Christians will be reduced.
Or maybe Muslims will quit projecting complications into our beliefs that we ourselves do not profess.


Really , sometimes it’s so hard to visit this forum :cry: :(

May be , we should visit halal fun only for the time being


Verse of the day :


And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful.



But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers ( 2: 23-24)
[/quote]

We do not need to produce more Surahs. We already have the revelation of the incarnate God, the Word made flesh who has dwelt among us. He has made God known to us.
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33)
Reply

Redeemed
06-19-2007, 12:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
I agree whole-heartedly with both of the above. I will go even further, though, to say this, with all due respect for all Muslims on this board and everywhere:

If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

I think the main reason Muslims view what the Bible says as "distorted" is that it contradicts what they have initially accepted as the truth of Islam and the Quran. Obviously, if Muslims believed the Bible first, that it is true and accurate in all that it relates, they would have a problem when they came to the Quran, which has a totally different message, when it comes to the nature of God and how a person gets to heaven (the Trinity and the Atonement). But since the Bible came first, it seems to me anyone really wanting to know the truth would have to first be shown how the first revelation is distorted BEFORE even looking at the later revelation. The problem with that is there is no proof of distortion. No one can show what the Bible said before the alleged distortion occurred, nor how it occurred, nor when it occurred, or that it occurred.

God is a God of TRUTH. Satan is the father of lies. With two diametrically opposed holy books saying opposite things as being the Word of God, they can't both be right in those two crucial areas, the nature of God and the way a person gets to heaven. They might both be wrong, but they can't both be right. If ONE is true, the other is a lie. If God is the author of one, Satan is the author of the other. Christians and Muslims each believe their respective holy book is the TRUTH authored by God (in the ultimate sense). The conclusion is inescapable that they also believe that the other's "holy book" is UNTRUE and the work of Satan.

In addition the lack of evidence of the Bible's message being distorted, the Bible itself is a work that flows in its theme across multiple human authors (prophets, apostles, etc.) and over thousands of year, showing a consistency of plan and purpose, and showing the divine hand of God throughout. The O.T. is fulfilled in the N.T., which concludes with a warning against anyone adding to it. All the truth of the N.T. is for all people and for all time and needs no new revelation from any new prophets. All the prophecies concerning Christ in the O.T. find their fulfillment in the Christ of the N.T. The N.T. concludes with a vision of the end of this earth and the coming of a new heavens and a new earth and eternity. The Quran, on the other hand, serves no purpose which is consistent with O.T. and N.T. There just is NO indication that the God of the O.T. and N.T. is the same as Allah and giving additional revelation which becomes the Quran. Where and why would it fit into the N.T. picture which covers everything all the way to eternity? Again, the message of the N.T. was for all people ("go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" includes Jew and Gentile---everyone) for all time.

What I said in another thread is quotable here: Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) has supposedly ended up in Islam. But Islam is a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not consistent with O.T. and N.T., not right, and just plain not of God. And it doesn't even make sense.
Both Christians and Muslims have a promise, but my preference is to be a Christian. It all started with Abraham's wife Sarah and Hagar Sarah’s handmaid. Ishmael is the seed of Abraham and so is Isaac. Those dudes are brothers. And the whole world is caught up in a family feud. Ishmael has a promise to be a powerful nation which is self-sufficient and Isaac has the seed of promise. The Christians come from the Isaac side and the Muslims come from the Ishmael side which is from the slave girl Hagar. They are both carrying God’s promise, but only one is free. One can serve God in freedom the other cannot therefore they are under the law which brings death. One represents the law and trying to please God with works and the other does it by faith that works through love and works are not the focus. Whom the Son has set free is freed in deed. They do not believe in the Son of God that is why they cannot be free. I pray to God that we can reach our Muslim brothers on this forum. I cannot understand how they can be so tenacious in the light of all the truth they have been presented with. It is written, however, that they would be against every man and every man against them. That is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. It would be better for them if they never heard the truth than to resist it so adamantly. I think it would be better if we go to Turkey, Pakistan or some other Arab Muslim nation that haven’t heard the good news. I know some people that have been starting churches among nominal Muslims. I think most of the Muslims on this forum are hardened to the gospel. The god of this world has blinded their eyes. I think I am going to back off for a while unless God shows me not to. All their arguments against Christianity make no sense and cannot be backed up.
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-19-2007, 02:06 AM




Salaam/ peace ;



Phil12123: Have you jumped over and joined the atheists here?


---may God bless me with death before joining Atheists in faith , Ameen.





I asked this because Grace Seeker wrote : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.




So , I want to know , why Christians belief is not a blind faith ? Except some very complicated explanations invented by …..God knows whom ……..what proof do u have that Jesus (p) is God ?




Originally Posted by Muslim Woman



I'm asking about Prophet Jacob's (p) fighting with God Almighty......don't u believe in that story ???


Phil12123 : Sure, but what does that story have to do with anything we were talking about?



--because u wrote : If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observer………………evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.


That’s why I asked u to tell the story of Prophet Jacob (p) to a non-Muslim & non-Christian . A human being had a fight with God Almighty & who was the winner ???? Nope , God was not the winner ……….God , the most powerful , our Creator lost the fight .





I want to hear from a neutral person who’s belief s/he finds more logical …….God can come here , fight with His own creation & was a looser or Muslims are more credible that it’s impossible --- God fought & was beaten.






Phil12123 : The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position ……..



------still u deny what Jesus (p) repeatedly told u : "My Father is greater than I." Son was NOT equal to father ………he needed to take a lower position …..u r saying this but not accepting the main truth that , indeed God is greater than all.



In ur Bible , Father was always in a superior position -- except the case of Jacob (p) .



If somehow we could tell the ants a few things about us, they still wouldn't really have the capacity to know much, would they?




--we are not Creator of ants & on the last day , we won’t judge ants. But , God will judge us on the basis of this fact that if we shared oneness of God with someone else or not ?





So , Pl. be very careful & don’t associate partner with God…..ur holy book , all the blessed Prophets ( pbut ) including Jesus (p) warned u against shirk / blasphemy.




Grace Seeker : It's too bad that Muhammad was illiterate and that he did not have regular counsel from a competent priest with a Bible in hand



---Praise be to God ….. no human being taught Muhammed (p) but God Almighty through His angel .




Those views are simply not true……. they are generated by a predisposition against the New Testament….. if the Qur'an really is so solidly disputing the New Testament as being corrupted, that alone proves its falsehood or invention…..

--- huh ……only few days back , I posted from a Christian ( & u confirmed me that it was a Christian site ) that warned Christians from bogus Bible. But , when Quran / Muslims tell that today’ s Bible is corrupted ….Christians object ….why ? :blind:






u should ask Bible publishers first NOT to warn readers from bogus bible +o(




It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so .



I find that it is the case not just with small issues such as music, but big things such as the Islamic view of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians.

---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only , we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism , Christianity & Islam.




Christians do not deny that the Father is greater than Jesus

---- that’s great …..pl. think more about why & how Father is greater than Jesus (p) .





God Willing , in future , u won’t give importance on extremely complicated explanations & mysteries any more : ) & accept the simple truth that God is greater than Jesus (p) ------ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.



Or maybe Muslims will quit projecting complications into our beliefs that we ourselves do not profess


---so , Trinity is no more a mystery ? :rollseyes





We do not need to produce more Surahs. We already have the revelation of the incarnate God

---ummm , Bible is revelation of ‘’ incarnate ‘’ God but not from God Almighty who was always God but never a human being ?




Verse of the day—


Say (O Muhammad ( p ):

"I am only a warner and there is no Ilâh (god) except God

(none has the right to be worshipped but God ) the One, the Irresistible

( 38: 65 )





Reply

Muslim Woman
06-19-2007, 02:28 AM



Salaam/ peace ;


format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
It all started with Abraham's wife Sarah and Hagar Sarah’s handmaid. ...... The Christians come from the Isaac side and the Muslims come from the Ishmael side which is from the slave girl Hagar. .

So , u don't respect Prophet Ishmael (p) because his mom was a slave ? even if it's true that Mother Hagar (ra) was a slave , so what ?

U are denying the fact that she was the honourable wife of a blessed Prophet (p).



Ur Bible tells u that if a man's First born son is from his wife whom he dislikes , it won't change the status of first born.




They are both carrying God’s promise, but only one is free......One can serve God in freedom the other cannot therefore they are under the law which brings death
LOL , u believe , if mom was a slave , it means son has no right to be a Prophet (p) ? Ur holy book says so ???




They do not believe in the Son of God that is why they cannot be free.
We do not believe in the Son of God that is why , God Willing , on the last day , we will be free :) :D :statisfie





I pray to God that we can reach our Muslim brothers on this forum.
I pray to God that we can reach our Chrisitian brothers & Sisters on this forum & elsewhere :)





I cannot understand how they can be so tenacious in the light of all the truth they have been presented with.

--same here :p

I don't understand how Christians can be so tenacious ( errr...don't know the meaning...can guess :p ) in the light of all the truth they have been presented with.





It is written, however, that they would be against every man and every man against them. That is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
--pl. explain




I think it would be better if we go to Turkey, Pakistan or some other Arab Muslim nation that haven’t heard the good news.


--don't u worry ....Chrisitians Missionaries have flooded the Muslim Countries .




IN my country , we have a lot of Christians missionareies / NGO's etc. U will be happy to know that they are trying their best to spread the good news .


They are telling Muslims that on the last day , because of Jesus (p) , no Christians will get any punishment . Sis Jayda told me that it's not correct that no Chrisitians will get punishment. See , missionaries are even telling lies....so , stop worrying & cheer up :D


Reply

Redeemed
06-19-2007, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman



Salaam/ peace ;



Phil12123: Have you jumped over and joined the atheists here?


---may God bless me with death before joining Atheists in faith , Ameen.



I asked this because Grace Seeker wrote : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.




So , I want to know , why Christians belief is not a blind faith ? Except some very complicated explanations invented by …..God knows whom ……..what proof do u have that Jesus (p) is God ?









--because u wrote : If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observer………………evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.


That’s why I asked u to tell the story of Prophet Jacob (p) to a non-Muslim & non-Christian . A human being had a fight with God Almighty & who was the winner ???? Nope , God was not the winner ……….God , the most powerful , our Creator lost the fight .





I want to hear from a neutral person who’s belief s/he finds more logical …….God can come here , fight with His own creation & was a looser or Muslims are more credible that it’s impossible --- God fought & was beaten.






Phil12123 : The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position ……..



------still u deny what Jesus (p) repeatedly told u : "My Father is greater than I." Son was NOT equal to father ………he needed to take a lower position …..u r saying this but not accepting the main truth that , indeed God is greater than all.



In ur Bible , Father was always in a superior position -- except the case of Jacob (p) .









--we are not Creator of ants & on the last day , we won’t judge ants. But , God will judge us on the basis of this fact that if we shared oneness of God with someone else or not ?





So , Pl. be very careful & don’t associate partner with God…..ur holy book , all the blessed Prophets ( pbut ) including Jesus (p) warned u against shirk / blasphemy.




Grace Seeker : It's too bad that Muhammad was illiterate and that he did not have regular counsel from a competent priest with a Bible in hand



---Praise be to God ….. no human being taught Muhammed (p) but God Almighty through His angel .







--- huh ……only few days back , I posted from a Christian ( & u confirmed me that it was a Christian site ) that warned Christians from bogus Bible. But , when Quran / Muslims tell that today’ s Bible is corrupted ….Christians object ….why ? :blind:






u should ask Bible publishers first NOT to warn readers from bogus bible +o(




It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so .






---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only , we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism , Christianity & Islam.







---- that’s great …..pl. think more about why & how Father is greater than Jesus (p) .





God Willing , in future , u won’t give importance on extremely complicated explanations & mysteries any more : ) & accept the simple truth that God is greater than Jesus (p) ------ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.







---so , Trinity is no more a mystery ? :rollseyes








---ummm , Bible is revelation of ‘’ incarnate ‘’ God but not from God Almighty who was always God but never a human being ?




Verse of the day—


Say (O Muhammad ( p ):

"I am only a warner and there is no Ilâh (god) except God

(none has the right to be worshipped but God ) the One, the Irresistible

( 38: 65 )




But if you could become an ant, you would be able to communicate with them. That is much like the idea of Jesus God's word in the flesh. You are starting to get it, I think?:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-19-2007, 06:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman


So , I want to know , why Christians belief is not a blind faith ? Except some very complicated explanations invented by …..God knows whom ……..what proof do u have that Jesus (p) is God ?
"For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5:18) This is not in the sense that humans call God Father, because the Jews would not have sought to kill him for that. This is in the sense that Jesus was making himself God. And he does so to such an extent that he claims for himself that which is true of no man, nor even any creature including angels, but can only be true of God: "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself." (John 5:26)

As Jesus said, "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?" (John 5:44)

And Jesus, speaking to the Pharisees, also said: "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world." (John 8:23) What world do you suppose Jesus is claiming that he is from? Surely it is a reference to heaven. What human being can claim to be from heaven? Perhaps we will one day go to heaven, but only God and God's angels can claim to be from heaven. Are you going to claim that Jesus was nothing more than an angel? Whatever the case, Jesus is from a different world than other humans. And please don't say any nonsesne about Jesus' use of the turn "Son of God" was not a claim to divinity, the Jews new that it was exactly that, that was the reason they wanted to have him put to death, see John 19:6-7, especially their statement to Pilate-- "he must die because he claimed to be the Son of God."

You want it spelled out in simple terms like: "I am God." Well, that is exactly what John 8:58 is: "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am'." This is Jesus taking the divine name of God and applying it to himself. And those who speak the language of Jesus indeed clearly understood it that way, for they picked up stones to stone him.

Jesus can also be seen to make divine claims for himself repeatedly, by his actions and by the response to his words from others: see Luke 5:17-25; John 10:30-33; Matthew 26:63-65; Mark 14:61-64; Luke 22:69-71. Only the blind will not recognize his claims for what they are. The Jews were so prejuidiced by their preconceived (but wrong) beliefs as to what to expect from the Messiah, that they could not recognize Jesus for who he really was. Yet even they recognized who he claimed to be.

In addition to these words from Jesus' mouth; there is the testimony of his most initimate companions. And there is the testimony of the Holy Spirit in my own life. That is all the proof that I need.


---Praise be to God ….. no human being taught Muhammed (p) but God Almighty through His angel .
My point being that I don't believe that this actually happened.

……..except for Muhammad himself saying so, what proof do u have that Muhammad (p) was taught by God?





--- huh ……only few days back , I posted from a Christian ( & u confirmed me that it was a Christian site ) that warned Christians from bogus Bible. But , when Quran / Muslims tell that today’ s Bible is corrupted ….Christians object ….why ? :blind:

u should ask Bible publishers first NOT to warn readers from bogus bible +o(

It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so .
You seem to confuse, as I mentioned above, the difference between admitting that there are imperfections in Bibles today and saying that the New Testament itself was corrupted. You also vastly overstate the nature of any corruption that actually does exist today. Again, you are blinded by the propaganda you have been fed all of your life. Non-Christian scholars will testify to the reliability of the Christian New Testament as the most well documented of all ancient documents from the Greco-Roman period or before.



---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only , we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism , Christianity & Islam.
Nor are Christians.


Luke 11
29As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
Jesus was greater than a king. Jesus was greater than a prophet. Because Jesus was more than either prophet or king. Jesus was and is God; God who came and dwelled incarnate among us. This is ascribing no partner to God. I am saying that it is Allah himself that walked on earth among us. You may call it shirk, but it is truer than any words ever spoken by the one you call a prophet.

This thread was written as a warning to non-Muslims. But you need to hear that there is another warning to be considered. These are the words of one you claim to honor:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-19-2007, 08:11 AM


Salaam/ peace ;





format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
But if you could become an ant, you would be able to communicate with them. That is much like the idea of Jesus God's word in the flesh. You are starting to get it, I think?:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

LOL no , not at all :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:

Why God needs to become His own creation ???? That's absurd ...very confusing :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:


God sent us Prophets (pbut ) , God sent us holy books , God gave us intelligence .....Our logic tell us that God does not need to
be a human being or fight with a Prophet (p)-----He is above all these .

Allahu Akbar ----Only God is Great.



Reply

Muslim Woman
06-19-2007, 08:36 AM

Salaam/ peace ;


format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
"
Are you going to claim that Jesus was nothing more than an angel?
Jesus (p) was a blessed Prophet (p) , his status is higher than angels & lower than God Almighty.


……..except for Muhammad himself saying so, what proof do u have that Muhammad (p) was taught by God?
may i ask ....except complicated explanations of few verses those go against the whole Bible , what proof do u have that Jesus (p ) is God ?




.....the difference between admitting that there are imperfections in Bibles today and saying that the New Testament itself was corrupted.

what are u trying to say ? What's the differences between ' imperfections in Bible today ' & New Testament itself was corrupted ?


We believe that Jesus (p) got the revealation from God. People did not write it correctly , did not memorized the whole Injeel/ Bible , thus they lost the original one. Later , people added many false things in it.



Non-Christian scholars will testify to the reliability of the Christian New Testament as the most well documented of all ancient documents from the Greco-Roman period or before.
That's really strange . Bible publishers are giving warning to Chrisitian readers about Bogus Bible & u r claiming that Non-Chrisitian scholars will testify ?


Why not try to convince Bible publishers first that Bible is most well documented of all ancient documents from the Greco-Roman period or before??



Jesus was and is God; .....You may call it shirk, but it is truer than any words ever spoken by the one you call a prophet.

ok , which Prophet (p) before Jesus (p) told u that to go to heaven , u have to believe in Trinity ?

If Trinity is so imp for salvation , how come no Prophet ever taught about Trinity ? Not even mentioned once ????? Another mystery ??? :enough!:




Uhhhh , i m seriously thinking of not visiting the religious threads for the time being .....running out of patience fast.....sorry if my posts hurt any Christians feelings :cry:



Reply

Grace Seeker
06-19-2007, 09:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/ peace ;



may i ask ....except complicated explanations of few verses those go against the whole Bible , what proof do u have that Jesus (p ) is God ?
I gave you a whole list of them above. Nothing complicated about a one of them. And I gave several, not just one. But you have not addressed my question -- "……..except for Muhammad himself saying so, what proof do u have that Muhammad (p) was taught by God?" -- at all, only came back with the same question I have already previously answered.




what are u trying to say ? What's the differences between ' imperfections in Bible today ' & New Testament itself was corrupted ?
The difference is that what you say below:
"We believe that Jesus (p) got the revealation from God. People did not write it correctly , did not memorized the whole Injeel/ Bible , thus they lost the original one. Later , people added many false things in it."
This stuff IS NOT how the New Testament was produced, nor how it was intended to be written to begin with. Jesus did not come with a message. He came with a mission. Preaching was only incidental, not primary, to Jesus' purpose. The companions of Jesus recorded what he did as actually being more important than what he said. There was no Injeel as you think of it to memorize, there was instead a story of Jesus' sacrfice on the cross to proclaim. Check it out, this last week of Jesus' life takes up nearly half of each of the Gospels. It is the primary focus of the teaching and preaching of the early church. Why? Because the Cross itself IS the message.

So, if this is what is recorded, and it is, then there is no corruption.

What did happen is that in later copying of the gospels records that there were some scribal errors and while most of these are fairly easy to discern what was the original text, in a few instances it is more difficult and thus not quite certain. None of these are significant enough to change the basic thrust of the story of Jesus life.





That's really strange . Bible publishers are giving warning to Chrisitian readers about Bogus Bible & u r claiming that Non-Chrisitian scholars will testify ?
Yep. Exactly. That's why I just think you misunderstand the nature of what the Bible actually is and how reliable that it is as an historical document, not just a religious one.


Why not try to convince Bible publishers first that Bible is most well documented of all ancient documents from the Greco-Roman period or before??
They already know that it is. What makes you think that they don't recognize that?






ok , which Prophet (p) before Jesus (p) told u that to go to heaven , u have to believe in Trinity ?
That's not even relevant.

if Trinity is so imp for salvation , how come no Prophet ever taught about Trinity ? Not even mentioned once ????? Another mystery ??? :enough!:
The fullness of God's self-revelation of himself was not complete until Jesus came. The prophets could not talk about that which they did not know. None of the prophets were given complete knowledge of God. The Trinity would be one of those things that were true, but that they knew little to nothing about. Though you can find hints with regard to the Trinity in some of their writings.
Reply

Phil12123
06-19-2007, 02:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
I want to hear from a neutral person who’s belief s/he finds more logical …….God can come here, fight with His own creation & was a looser or Muslims are more credible that it’s impossible --- God fought & was beaten.
With all due respect, the thoughts you express are those of a carnal, not spiritual, mind. It would be like saying, a person who engages in fervent, prevailing prayer and thereby receives his prayer request from God, has beaten God and made God a loser. Do you see how ridiculous such a thought is? Jacob's wrestling with the angel (or God) is more about prayer not power, and is commented on by several commentaries which may be found by Googling the phrase, "commentary on Genesis 32." I suggest you do that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Phil12123 : The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position …….. [I notice you leave out my words, ...in order to take on flesh and die for our sins."]

------still u deny what Jesus (p) repeatedly[???] told u: "My Father is greater than I." Son was NOT equal to father ………he needed to take a lower position ….[again, I notice you leave out my words, ...in order to take on flesh and die for our sins."]...u r saying this but not accepting the main truth that, indeed God is greater than all.

In ur Bible , Father was always in a superior position -- except the case of Jacob (p).
GOD (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is ALWAYS in a superior position in relation to His creation. Jacob is no exception. It is only by the grace and mercy of God that we have any of our prayers answered. Again, God's granting some prayer request does not make Him a loser, nor give us a position superior to His. God is all-powerful and it is only by His grace (undeserved love or favor) that He even listens to our prayers. But for the Christian, He is a Heavenly Father who delights in the prayers of His children, when they are in a right relation with Him, more so than any earthly father toward his loved children.

I see you LOVE John 14:28 and even include it in your signature, no matter how much you misunderstand it. And you know from my previous post that I do NOT deny it, but simply understand it in its proper context, which YOU ignore. You remind me of several Jehovah's Witnesses that I have dialogued with, who LOVE to point out all they can in the Scriptures that might support their erroneous views of the nature of Christ. They are wrong, wrong, wrong, and you are wrong, wrong, wrong, and both you and them are well-referred-to by Peter when he wrote:


2 Peter 3:
13. Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15. and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16. as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17. You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
18. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
--we are not Creator of ants & on the last day, we won’t judge ants. But, God will judge us on the basis of this fact that if we shared oneness of God with someone else or not?

So, Pl. be very careful & don’t associate partner with God…..ur holy book, all the blessed Prophets (pbut) including Jesus (p) warned u against shirk / blasphemy.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only, we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism, Christianity & Islam.
My holy book, the Bible, also warns you that if you believe not that Jesus is God you will die in your sins (John 8:24, 58). And your sins will include blasphemy in speaking against the Son of God. My holy book, the Bible, also says that God (actually in the Person of Jesus Christ) will judge you on the basis of what you did with His work of redemption for your sins at Calvary---accept it and have your sins paid for by Him, or reject it and thus require you to pay for all your own sins for the zillions and zillions of years of eternity. Your believing in ONE GOD without partners, as I do, will not count for ANYTHING at the judgment, because your sins will still remain if you reject Christ's atoning death for them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so.
There are NO Bible publishers who are saying ANY Bibles are corrupted on the scale that you Muslims are claiming. SHOW ME one single Bible published by any reputable Bible publisher that does not contain every verse describing God as "God the Father" and Jesus as the "Son of God," and telling about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. YOU CAN'T DO IT. So, stop the foolish comparison of ANY Bible publishers with what you Muslims are saying.
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-20-2007, 12:23 AM


Salaam/ peace ;

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I gave you a whole list of them above. Nothing complicated about a one of them. And I gave several, not just one.


I dont remember ur giving proof outside Bible about Jesus's (p) being God .....ok , Insha Allah , i will try to read ur posts again.


But you have not addressed my question -- "……..except for Muhammad himself saying so, what proof do u have that Muhammad (p) was taught by God?" -- at all, only came back with the same question I have already previously answered

As a believer , holy Quran is enough for me...if it's blind faith ( as u pointed out ) , then how come ur faith is not blind , too ?





Jesus did not come with a message. He came with a mission.
but his mission was for Jews only. There is also a verse in Bible that prohibits Christians to preach to ....i forgot the exact word....say Muslims like me .

May be , it will be off topic here ...but are Chrsitians allowed to preach to Muslims ?



There was no Injeel as you think of it to memorize, there was instead a story of Jesus' sacrfice on the cross to proclaim.

what do u mean ? If Jesus (p) got revealation , then surely he told about these to people. And the words of God should have been recorded....either in written foms or in memory.



Because the Cross itself IS the message.
now , we may start another debate on Cross. Muslims believe , Jesus (p) will break all the Crosses after his second coming.


What did happen is that in later copying of the gospels records that there were some scribal errors

there were not some errors.....those Chrisitians scholars tried to corrected the errors admitted that it's impossible to do the corrections.....thousands & thousands errors. :cry:




They already know that it is. What makes you think that they don't recognize that?

then pl . tell them not to use the word bogus about Bible.

That's not even relevant.
:rollseyes


The prophets could not talk about that which they did not know.
yes , u r right . The Prophets ( pbut ) did not know about Trinity.

it's an invention ....not by Jesus (p).


None of the prophets were given complete knowledge of God. The Trinity would be one of those things that were true, but that they knew little to nothing about. Though you can find hints with regard to the Trinity in some of their writings.
if they knew nothing about Trinity , how it was possible for them to give hints ? :?


Verses of the day & night –


“Say: O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)!

Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in God, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down before (us),

and that most of you are faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient [to God ])?”


[al-Maa’idah 5:59]
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-20-2007, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

I dont remember ur giving proof outside Bible about Jesus's (p) being God .....ok , Insha Allah , i will try to read ur posts again.



As a believer , holy Quran is enough for me...if it's blind faith ( as u pointed out ) , then how come ur faith is not blind , too ?
Were you asking for proof outside of the Bible about Jesus being God? I did not understand that. Well, I did mention that we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit in our own lives, that is outside the Bible. We have the earliest of all Christian writings, the Didicahe, which makes this proclaimation about Jesus, and it is not in the Bible. We have the Apsotles' Creed and the testimony of those who were disciples of Jesus' companions that Jesus was God. These are all Christians witnesses, in addition to the Biblical witness, which express the belief that Jesus was God.

Of course I don't expect you to accept any of that as proof. But maybe you will accept it as proof that Christians believed this to be true long before Paul or and centuries before Nicea. Indeed, may you will accept as true that the very earliest Christians actually did believe that Jesus was God. It was so important that to not believe that Jesus was God was enough to keep one from joining the 1st century church. And in later years when such ideas first appeared within the church, those Christians that held them were labelled heretics and excommunicated from the church.

Now, since we don't have it written in the sky, maybe you want to call it blind faith. I personally think it is reasoned faith, but if you see it as blind faith, then that is how you see it.



but his mission was for Jews only. There is also a verse in Bible that prohibits Christians to preach to ....i forgot the exact word....say Muslims like me .

May be , it will be off topic here ...but are Chrsitians allowed to preach to Muslims ?
Yes, most certainly Christias are allowed to preach to Muslims, to Jews, to atheists, to Buddhists, to agnostics, to Taoists, to animists, to Wiccans, to spiritualists, to pagans, to secular humanists, and even to other Christians.

Jesus mission was "to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10). His mission sent him to the Jews, but the very verses that you look to in order to make the claim that Jesus' mission was for the Jews alone (Mark 7:24-30) show that Jesus was willing to be in ministry to others besides just Jews, for he was not in Palestine at the time and he does meet this non-Jewish woman's need.

Also Jesus accomplished his mission among the Jews, but the impact of it was intended to reach all peoples everywhere, this is why he specifically sent his disciples to go to the entire world: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations." (Mattew 28:19), and "you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8).



what do u mean ? If Jesus (p) got revealation , then surely he told about these to people. And the words of God should have been recorded....either in written foms or in memory.
First, Jesus did and said many things. Not all of what he did and said was recorded. What was recorded and passed on to us was that which was necessary and sufficient for us to know about and believe in Christ for our salvation. Again, you are thinking like a Muslim in thinking that there must be some special message. What is special is not Jesus' message, but Jesus himself. We are not to place our faith in the words he gave to us, we are to place our faith in him personally.




then pl . tell them not to use the word bogus about Bible.
You'll have to point out to me (or do it again if you've done so before) where a Bible publisher calls the Bible bogus. I don't know of any such instance.



yes , u r right . The Prophets ( pbut ) did not know about Trinity.

it's an invention ....not by Jesus (p).
I've addressed this many times with you. Others seem to get it. Please tell me if I am communicating poorly and you still don't understand. Or am I not understanding that you aren't really asking for clarification, and that you just want to say what you yourself believe in this matter, regardless as to whether it is relevant or not. Because it is not relevant that the Word Trinity appears no where in scripture. The word "cumulous" does not appear in scripture when describing clouds, but that doesn't mean that Jesus and the disciples never saw cumulous clouds.



if they knew nothing about Trinity , how it was possible for them to give hints ? :?
Because the prophets were given messages from God, and God knew what he was like. He did not reveal all about his nature until the time of Christ, but that doesn't keep him from giving hints.
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-20-2007, 09:28 AM
Salaam/ peace ;

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
.....I've addressed this many times with you.

i was just wondering , why almost everyone is in fighting mood here

? ....suddenly the normal atmosphere changed.....anybody noticed it ?

should i keep replying or take some time ; so that we can calm down & later come back with a smiley mood

?

:) we can also have icecream





verses of the Day & night :



This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God.


Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.


They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
( 2: 2-5)
Reply

guyabano
06-20-2007, 09:48 AM
There is finally one question, which puzzle me most:

Where did people go, or what happen to them before THE GOD/ALLAH?

I mean, Egyptians/Romans/Greeks/Azteks etc. had their Gods, and for them, their Gods were the real Gods. What Muslims and Christians call Paradise, the old Vikings in Norway call it 'Walhalla'

Get the point? Everybody believe in someone/something and that keeps us together. It makes part of the social matrix which we are all involved.
But the world will go on, even after Mankind is erased.
Who can really proove, that before the dinosaures, there was not another civilisation which again had their gods?

All this stuff about religion is so silly. I believe in my wife and my children. My aim is to give them a good future. After this, who cares, I will be burned and my ashes will turn back to where they come from. End of story ! There do exist neither a paradise nor a hell. It is just an imagination which humans created themselves to strenghten their beliefs.
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-20-2007, 10:03 AM
Salaam/ peace ;
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
There is finally one question, which puzzle me most:

Where did people go, or what happen to them before THE GOD/ALLAH?......
I mean, Egyptians/Romans/Greeks/Azteks etc. had their Gods, and for them, their Gods were the real Gods.
God is only one ........ God sent to Prophets to all nations to taught people about worshipping one God.

So , those who worshipped one God will enter paradise , those who made statues for worhip purpose or worshipped sun , moon , humsn being , angel etc ---creations of the Creator --will be in fire forever .....if did not repent sincerely.


What Muslims and Christians call Paradise, the old Vikings in Norway call it 'Walhalla'
--we all have different langauages ...in my language i call Paradise ' beyhaest '...so what ?



Get the point?
no :cry:

But the world will go on, even after Mankind is erased.
how do u know ? :)



Who can really proove, that before the dinosaures, there was not another civilisation which again had their gods?
read holy Quran , hopefully u will understand there are no gods but God.


All this stuff about religion is so silly.
it's not silly to God ........so , it's very imp to believers.

I believe in my wife and my children. My aim is to give them a good future.
if u really love them , try to save them from eternal fire.


... I will be burned and my ashes will turn back to where they come from. End of story ! There do exist neither a paradise nor a hell....
It has been answered several times & thousand years ago . If there is no hell , no fear at all but what if really hell is waiting to burn u......must not u be careful ? In this world, we dont' want to be roasted in fire even for 1 second , so how can we deny God & enter in eternal fire ?

Just think & pray if u want . If u don't believe in God , u will be the looser , not the God Almighty.
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-20-2007, 12:56 PM
Regarding preaching on hell, I like what John Wesley said:
"I don't believe in using hell just to scare people into being good, but I have no problem with using the fear of hell to scare them to strive to live lives bound for heaven." (my paraphrase)
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-20-2007, 01:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
should i keep replying or take some time ; so that we can calm down & later come back with a smiley mood
Ask any thing, any time if you are really searching for understanding. But please try to remember those questions which we have addressed. And if you don't understand the first answer, certainly ask again and we will try to find a different way to say the same thing so that you can understand. But if it is you just don't like the Christian answer, then please understand that asking the same question repeatedly isn't going to help either of us much. Our answer isn't going to change, and you will never believe the one we are going to give.
Reply

Redeemed
06-20-2007, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/ peace ;








LOL no , not at all :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:

Why God needs to become His own creation ???? That's absurd ...very confusing :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:


God sent us Prophets (pbut ) , God sent us holy books , God gave us intelligence .....Our logic tell us that God does not need to
be a human being or fight with a Prophet (p)-----He is above all these .

Allahu Akbar ----Only God is Great.


So He could be our high priest. So that God could fellowship with us because he loves us and wants to be with us. He couldn't do it as a spirit. He had to become flesh and blood, but he is not limited to flesh and blood. It makes prefect sense. The only reason I believe you say it doesn't is because you believe that means ascribing partners to God which you got from the Qur'an, but it is not. What you consider to be foolishness is the power of God to us.
Reply

Phil12123
06-20-2007, 08:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
There is finally one question, which puzzle me most:

Where did people go, or what happen to them before THE GOD/ALLAH?

I mean, Egyptians/Romans/Greeks/Azteks etc. had their Gods, and for them, their Gods were the real Gods. What Muslims and Christians call Paradise, the old Vikings in Norway call it 'Walhalla'

Get the point? Everybody believe in someone/something and that keeps us together. It makes part of the social matrix which we are all involved.
But the world will go on, even after Mankind is erased.
Who can really proove, that before the dinosaures, there was not another civilisation which again had their gods?

All this stuff about religion is so silly. I believe in my wife and my children. My aim is to give them a good future. After this, who cares, I will be burned and my ashes will turn back to where they come from. End of story ! There do exist neither a paradise nor a hell. It is just an imagination which humans created themselves to strenghten their beliefs.
I will give the Christian answer (or at least mine). Someone else will have to give you the Muslim answer, if it differs from mine.

Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone else in the Bible. He obviously was much more concerned about it than you are. He said that at the judgment when He comes back and sits on His throne, He will say to some, "Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). This tells us several things. First, Jesus Christ Himself will be the Judge. Second, there will be some who will go into everlasting fire. Third, that everlasting fire was originally "prepared for the devil and his angels," i.e., the fallen angels, the demons.

Satan fell from his original position of a beautiful angel ("the anointed cherub" Ezek. 28:14). He was "in Eden, the garden of God" (28:13), probably invisible to Adam and Eve, but nevertheless speaking through the serpent, tempting them to sin by disobeying God. So, Satan's fall from his original position in heaven had to be before the creation of man, and therefore before all those civilizations you mention. Therefore, if hell was prepared for him and his demons and he fell before there were any civilizations, hell has existed for all of human history. The question you ask is then, Did people go there when they died? Well, before Jesus came to die for sinners, everyone went to the place of the dead and in the O.T. it is called Sheol, the place of departed spirits, both righteous and wicked. There was, however, a great difference in the locations in Sheol of the righteous and the wicked, separated by a great gulf, so that those in one place could not move to the other. The one place, for the righteous, was a place of comfort and contentment, where the righteous awaited Christ's death and resurrection, after which they would be led by Christ as He ascended to Heaven. They are now in heaven.

The other place, where the wicked went, was and still is a place of torment, where the wicked await, as if in a temporary jail, for their trial (the Judgment) after which they are sentenced to their final, eternal prison, known in the N.T. as the Lake of Fire.

So, to answer your question, the wicked of every age go to hell, a place of torment, and then finally to the Lake of Fire. The real question, however, might be, Who did God consider "the wicked" and "the righteous" back in those ancient civilizations that you mention. This post is already too long, though, to go into that now.

I will close with this thought: Eternity is TOO LONG to be wrong about it. If you care about your wife and children, whether you care about yourself or not, you will do as Muslim Woman suggested and "try to save them from eternal fire." You don't need them to keep you company in hell. You will be too concerned with your own torment to care about anyone else, even if they were in torment right next to you. Besides, you would not be able to relieve their torment any more than yours.

How long is eternity? Zillions and zillions of years, and then some. We have no concept of it, we who live maybe 100 years at best. That is like one tiny drop compared to all the oceans of the world. Or one grain of sand vs. all the beaches and deserts of the world. WAY TOO LONG TO BE WRONG ABOUT IT.
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-21-2007, 01:01 AM
Salaam/ peace ;


format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
. Our answer isn't going to change, and you will never believe the one we are going to give.
well , from Muslims side , we can say the same to our dear Chrisitans bro & sisters



Grace Seeker:I personally think it is reasoned faith, but if you see it as blind faith, then that is how you see it.


Well bro , I did not start it ….u wrote this & I just replied . Here is ur comment :


Grace Seeker: it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.



Muslim Woman---well , I guess , Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p) .

Grace Seeker: Indeed the Jews on this board would agree with you in making that statement.


---and ur point is …..?????


Is it ok for u to make negative comment about Muhammed (p) but Jews must not do the same about Jesus (p) ?

OR as they are the chosen people , they are allowed to say anything about Mother Mary (ra ) & Jesus (p) but Muslims can’t express their opinion even if they do it with respect ?



Why is that Christians are so sensitive about Muslims opinion that is expressed with full respect to Jesus (p) but they don’t react much ( at least as same they do with Muslims ) when it’s the question of Jews opinion ???



we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit in our own lives
--how do u know it’s not devil but the holy Spirit ?


verses of the Day & night :


God sees all that is in the hearts of His servants, those who say, "Our Lord! We believe in You, forgive us our sins and save us from the doom of the Fire," those who are steadfast, truthful, and devout, who give in charity and pray for forgiveness in the depths of the night.



-Qur'an, Al-Imran, Surah 3:15-17



Hadith : Like the corn fields that yield before the ferocious winds, the believers endure trials with fortitude. The hypocrites like cypress trees stand arrogantly until they are knocked down.


-The Prophet Muhammad (SAW), as reported by Abu Hurairah





From "The Bounty of Allah." Hadith translated by Aneela Khalid Arshed


“Why do you call me good?” answered Jesus, “No-one is good but God alone!” Mark 6:10


Reply

tears4husain
06-21-2007, 02:12 AM
:sl: beautuful and very informational I hope alot of people fully read this thread. May Allah bless you for making this thread for the unknowledgable.
Reply

Redeemed
06-21-2007, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tears4husain
:sl: beautuful and very informational I hope alot of people fully read this thread. May Allah bless you for making this thread for the unknowledgable.
HAVE YOU HEARD THE GOOD NEWS? We have all sinned and the penalty for it is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. He that has the son has life; he that does not, does not have life, but the wrath of God abides on him. This is beautiful information. I hope you read and are blessed with understanding.
Reply

tears4husain
06-21-2007, 03:31 AM
:sl: well I really dont believe jesus(a.s.) has anything to do with eternal life and I actually can prove why,but really dont feel like debating right now but im pretty sure its on this forum some where being proved.:D
Reply

wilberhum
06-21-2007, 03:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tears4husain
:sl: well I really dont believe jesus(a.s.) has anything to do with eternal life and I actually can prove why,but really dont feel like debating right now but im pretty sure its on this forum some where being proved.:D
Read my signature!
Reply

Redeemed
06-21-2007, 03:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tears4husain
:sl: well I really dont believe jesus(a.s.) has anything to do with eternal life and I actually can prove why,but really dont feel like debating right now but im pretty sure its on this forum some where being proved.:D
OK, and then you woke up.:coolalien
Reply

guyabano
06-21-2007, 07:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
<...>
read holy Quran , hopefully u will understand there are no gods but God.
<...>
All in all, you didn't answer any of my questions. I love science, and according to this, the world is already more than 4 billions of years old. The bible is only 2000 years old. Compared to 4 billions, it is barely a glimpse of a moment.
Now and you want to tell me, before God was no other God?
Well, I have 2 different answers for you:
1. The religious one: There are MANY Gods according to all the cultures and civilisations.
2. The scientific one: There is NO God. His existence has never been prooven.
All I hear is just 'He said', 'He Did', He command' ! Weee, and where is the proof, he said that, that he even exist?

I find it rather amusing, that people follow blindfolded stories out of books Bible/quaran which has been retranslated and rewritten 1000 times, everytime with a different author, so guess, what is left from the initial book.

I just give you an example: In the Genesis Book is mentionned the forbidden fruit, right?
But how you can explain, that suddenly, in the bible, they talk about an apple?
Well it's easy to explain: Mostly everyone loves apples, they are sweet, juicy, round shape, that's why one of the authors/translators choose an apple. They are perfect for the temptation story!

About hell, yeah, hell just exist for believers. Listen, when so called muslim suicide bombers can go to paradise, I will for sure go there, anyway, 'GOD' always forgive sinners, no?
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-21-2007, 08:34 AM
Salaam/ peace ;
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
All in all, you didn't answer any of my questions.
i tried :embarrass

ok , Insha Allah ( God Willing ) will try again now :D


I love science, and according to this, the world is already more than 4 billions of years old.

what proof do u have ? How do u know in few years this info won't be changed ?


People love to challange religion ,ask for proof ; but when so-called scientists (! ) or whoever they are say so & so like world is .....yrs old , dinosoaur ( yak , ignore spell ) became birds & flew in the sky , human came from ape/ lower animal etc , etc many people have no objection acception these. LOL


you want to tell me, before God was no other God?


yaaaaaaaaaaaaa , u got it :D:D:D:D:D:D

that 's what i want to say :p


Before & after God , there was no other god as God is only one.

U may worship human & angel or sun or moon as god but it won't change the Truth that God is one & only.



. The scientific one: There is NO God. His existence has never been prooven.
LOL & Science has proof that there is no God....where is the proof ? who gave certificate that the proof is solid ? What's his/her authority to give that kind of ' fatwa ' ????





I find it rather amusing, that people follow blindfolded stories out of books Bible/quaran which has been retranslated and rewritten 1000 times,
Quran was never rewritten....show me proof .


everytime with a different author, so guess, what is left from the initial book.
there is no human author of Quran. Pl. show proof if u have any that human being wrote Quran.


I just give you an example: In the Genesis Book is mentionned the forbidden fruit, right?
But how you can explain, that suddenly, in the bible, they talk about an apple?
i m sure , Jews & Christians have some answers.

Listen, when so called muslim suicide bombers can go to paradise,
God says in Quran ,if anybody kills an innocent person , it is as if s/he killed the whole mankind. So , how do u know those who are killing innocent persons will go to heaven?


anyway, 'GOD' always forgive sinners,
yap but if they repent sincerely. Don't wait for the last moment .....repentance won't be accepted when death approaches.

[/quote]


Reply

guyabano
06-21-2007, 09:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
what proof do u have ? How do u know in few years this info won't be changed ?
According to most websites I saw (and there are a lot), Scientists now came on one common answer +/- 1% accuracy: 4,55 billion years !

One example: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

As for the birds, you are right, they carry the same gens than paleantogues found on old bones from dinosaures. The birds are really the descendants of the dinosaures., and this has been prooven many times.

I wish we could go back in time, then you go and explain to the egyptians and azetcs in South America, that their gods are fakes and only your God (still to come at that time) is the true one.
I rather will not express you here what they would have done to you, accused for blasphemy ! :D

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
LOL & Science has proof that there is no God....where is the proof ? who gave certificate that the proof is solid ? What's his/her authority to give that kind of ' fatwa ' ????
well, that is the proof ! There is nothing, nada, nichts, rien ! There is nothing which could really justify the existence of God or one of his prophets.
Curiously, people find a lot of artefacts of ancient civilistations, even older than 2000 years, but nothing was ever found about the exisitence of Jesus.

Curious, isn't it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Quran was never rewritten....show me proof .

there is no human author of Quran. Pl. show proof if u have any that human being wrote Quran.
And again, this is the proof, you're looking for. It is just a book, coming out of the NOTHING. 2 Authors wrote these books Bible/Quaran and told then someday the people, to beleive in that was is written there, and the most important of all: DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, JUST DO IT

Anyway, it is an endless topic. It is good to see, people believe in something/someone. Some see their gods in animals, other in ..ermm..Gods (humans?). Others say, God is in everything. You can worship a ball pen and pretend, God is inside.
I also have my way of beliefs, so finally, all humans are not so different from each other.

It just makes me feel sad, that most wars on this planet are caused because of religions and also, that people, who have tight bindings to their religion are all very narrow minded towards different thinking persons.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-21-2007, 12:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
According to most websites I saw (and there are a lot), Scientists now came on one common answer +/- 1% accuracy: 4,55 billion years !

One example: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

As for the birds, you are right, they carry the same gens than paleantogues found on old bones from dinosaures. The birds are really the descendants of the dinosaures., and this has been prooven many times.

I wish we could go back in time, then you go and explain to the egyptians and azetcs in South America, that their gods are fakes and only your God (still to come at that time) is the true one.
I rather will not express you here what they would have done to you, accused for blasphemy ! :D


Maybe you could show some fossils to prove your argument, please? :)



well, that is the proof ! There is nothing, nada, nichts, rien ! There is nothing which could really justify the existence of God or one of his prophets.

You might not accept the Creation argument, yet that's of the most powerful arguments. The idea of 'chance' and 'coincidence' isn't worth much at all.

Also, the Cambrian explosion is something which causes alot of trouble to evolutionists, maybe you could clarify that? :) That's a huge sign that the creatures of Allaah were created and sent to the earth during different time periods.


Curiously, people find a lot of artefacts of ancient civilistations, even older than 2000 years, but nothing was ever found about the exisitence of Jesus.

Curious, isn't it?

Let's turn aside from the issue of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) for a little moment, we have solid evidences that God's final Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) existed - his lineage still continues on today. There are also many Islamic artifacts which have existed over 2000 years, including Masjid Al Aqsaa'. If i am able to find more info, inshaa Allaah (God willing) i will post them up.



And again, this is the proof, you're looking for. It is just a book, coming out of the NOTHING. 2 Authors wrote these books Bible/Quaran and told then someday the people, to beleive in that was is written there, and the most important of all: DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, JUST DO IT



First of all, no - the bible wasn't writ by one person. It was written by many different people.

The Qur'an, it wasn't written by God's Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) since he was an illiterate man. His companions wrote it, and it is preserved for us till today. Allaah says:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). [Qur'an 15: 9]
And your statement that we don't ask questions?

So ask the People of Knowledge if you do not know [Qur'an Surah 21:7]
Anyway, it is an endless topic. It is good to see, people believe in something/someone. Some see their gods in animals, other in ..ermm..Gods (humans?). Others say, God is in everything. You can worship a ball pen and pretend, God is inside.

God is outside of His creation, and He has Power over all things.



I also have my way of beliefs, so finally, all humans are not so different from each other.

It just makes me feel sad, that most wars on this planet are caused because of religions and also, that people, who have tight bindings to their religion are all very narrow minded towards different thinking persons.

Most wars are not done in the name of religion, religion may be used to lure people in. However, the majority of the wars done within the world are done so for worldly/material gains.

Islaam is also not a 'narrow minded' religion either, since the majority of the world advanced due to Islaam, it's teachings, and all the fields that Islaam advanced in which were a huge benefit for humanity.

http://www.muslimheritage.com/




Peace.
Reply

guyabano
06-21-2007, 12:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, JUST DO IT
As I said, that is what religion is ! Be obedient, and don't ask questions!

You can tell me whatever you want, but don't try to tell me, the earth was 4,5 billions of years an empty Planet, a piece of Rock, which just wait for Allah !
This is simply ridiculous. All the creatures on earth are made of Carbon and need Water to survive. EVOLUTION is the word, which over millions of years shaped the creatures of this planet.
For those who believe, all creatures on this planet have been made by God, somehow I envy them, because they live in a dreamland !
Evolution and Life is far more complex than just pretending 'God created that'
Reply

- Qatada -
06-21-2007, 12:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
As I said, that is what religion is ! Be obedient, and don't ask questions!

What is society? If one was to claim that religion is oppression, and we obey and follow. Don't people do the exact same to the laws within their society? Don't they do something which might seem krazy to them to fit in? :) Therefore doing what society tells one to do is also a form of obedience and in some ways a slavery too.


You can tell me whatever you want, but don't try to tell me, the earth was 4,5 billions of years an empty Planet, a piece of Rock, which just wait for Allah !

Who said i disagreed with that? :) Maybe Allaah did create the earth 4.5 billion years ago? I really don't know, and it won't effect my faith no matter what the answer is. Since the simple answer, is Allaah did create it.


This is simply ridiculous. All the creatures on earth are made of Carbon and need Water to survive. EVOLUTION is the word, which over millions of years shaped the creatures of this planet.
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

[Qur'an 21: 30]
For those who believe, all creatures on this planet have been made by God, somehow I envy them, because they live in a dreamland !
Evolution and Life is far more complex than just pretending 'God created that'

There are loads of missing gaps within the evolution theory. :)




Peace.
Reply

skhalid
06-21-2007, 01:00 PM
I'm muslim....so I ges dis dnt apply 2 me :zip:
Reply

guyabano
06-21-2007, 01:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
There are loads of missing gaps within the evolution theory. :)
Oh, sure, I agree on that! But not so much than in religions !

Peace !
Reply

- Qatada -
06-21-2007, 01:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Oh, sure, I agree on that! But not so much than in religions !

Peace !

The praise is for Allaah there are no gaps in Islaam, since He has perfected this religion for us. :)


Allaah Almighty says:

This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

[Qur'an 5: 3]



Peace.
Reply

guyabano
06-21-2007, 01:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
The praise is for Allaah there are no gaps in Islaam, since He has perfected this religion for us. :)


Allaah Almighty says:

This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

[Qur'an 5: 3]

Peace.
I'm so happy for you !

and oh, besides: NOTHING in this world is perfect !

Peace
Reply

- Qatada -
06-21-2007, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
I'm so happy for you !

and oh, besides: NOTHING in this world is perfect !

Peace

Thankyou :) the Qur'an is however, since it is the word of Allaah.



Peace.
Reply

Phil12123
06-21-2007, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
I find it rather amusing, that people follow blindfolded stories out of books Bible/quaran which has been retranslated and rewritten 1000 times, everytime with a different author, so guess, what is left from the initial book.

I just give you an example: In the Genesis Book is mentionned the forbidden fruit, right?
But how you can explain, that suddenly, in the bible, they talk about an apple?
Well it's easy to explain: Mostly everyone loves apples, they are sweet, juicy, round shape, that's why one of the authors/translators choose an apple. They are perfect for the temptation story!
The Bible does not call it an apple. All that is said is "fruit." Who are you referring to when you say, "one of the authors/translators"?


format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
About hell, yeah, hell just exist for believers.
No, it exists for the devil and his angels and sinners who reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Like you, for example, at this point.

format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Listen, when so called muslim suicide bombers can go to paradise, I will for sure go there, anyway, 'GOD' always forgive sinners, no?
Not if you reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross as payment for your sins. No forgiveness for those sinners. They have to pay for all of their own sins for all eternity.
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-22-2007, 01:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/ peace ;

well , from Muslims side , we can say the same to our dear Chrisitans bro & sisters
Yeah, I know. You already have. And I didn't say it to get even, this isn't a contest, just to try to clarify that the endless repitition of the same points over and over again without any apparent desire to remember them is rather pointless. If we aren't going to change one another, the purpose of the conversation should be not to attempt to change each other, or get our point out there, but to seek understanding. Having answered the same questions repeatedly and saying that the way you claim we speak is not what we are saying only to have you state what our beliefs are but again state things that we don't believe leads me to wonder if anyone is listening on the other end.


But I am having trouble telling whether that is the issue, or if you really don't understand and are still honestly seeking clarification. For instance, here, in the following quoted conversation, it is obvious that you just didn't understand what I was saying.
Well bro , I did not start it ….u wrote this & I just replied . Here is ur comment :

originally posted by Grace Seeker:
it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.
Now there was nothing malicious in my comment, nor in your reply. I was just saying that what I saw was blind belief. You wondered why I can say that about you and you can't say that about me. I said, you can say that if that is the way you see it. Though personally, I consider my faith to be not just blind belief but reasoned belief. Now, I didn't add, but I could have, that I would expect that you probably see yours not as blind belief, but reasoned belief also.

So, to clarify:
I see Islam as blind belief and Christianity as more of a reasoned faith.
I expect that you see Islam as more of a reasoned faith and Christianity as blind belief.

Can you say so? Sure. Why not?
No one is saying that you can't say it. That is how you see it. The other way is how I see it. We each think our own faith is true and reasoned, and that the other is something less than that. Nothing incredible about that. And as far as I can tell we are each free to state those opinions all we want. I'm only questioing the wisdom in continuing to, IMHO, waste each other's time saying the same thing over and over and over and over....and over again. I'm and trying to be respectful and continuing to answer your questions. But after having answered the same question not just once or twice, but even more times, I don't know if it is worth it.

If you are truly asking questions for information then I will continue. If you are just trolling, well, you will keep getting the same response from me, perhaps in different words as I'm hoping that if you are really seeking information that one of these times it will make sense. But if you are just hoping that I am going to wake up and agree with Islam, that isn't going to happen. I'm not trying to convert you to Christianity or convince you (or anyone else) of our rightness by my answers. I am merely trying to help you see what it is that we actually believe, when it appears that you have some misunderstanding of those beliefs.

If you think I am rude in expressing myself so freely, I apologize. That is not my intent. But I admit to being frustrated that this conversation does not seem to have progressed any. It does not seem that you understand or know any more about Christianity and its beliefs now than you did before. If all you are ever going to know about Christianity is what you are taught about it in the Qur'an or the Hadiths, there is no point in reading the Bible or asking a Christian to explain anything. So, what is the purpose of this conversation and these questions? Can you clarify that for me?

I am seriously asking. I want to know what it is that you are hoping to accomplish by your line of questioning? I'll gladly continue, if you have a real need. But, tell me, please, what that need is, if you actually have one.


originally posted by Muslim Woman---well , I guess , Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p) .

originailly posted by Grace Seeker: Indeed the Jews on this board would agree with you in making that statement.

Is it ok for u to make negative comment about Muhammed (p) but Jews must not do the same about Jesus (p) ?

OR as they are the chosen people , they are allowed to say anything about Mother Mary (ra ) & Jesus (p) but Muslims can’t express their opinion even if they do it with respect ?



Why is that Christians are so sensitive about Muslims opinion that is expressed with full respect to Jesus (p) but they don’t react much ( at least as same they do with Muslims ) when it’s the question of Jews opinion ???
If you think that not agreeing with you that Muhammad (pbuh) is who you understanding him to be as a servant of God is speaking negatively, but you think that I should understand you as speaking positively about Jesus when you put him on a level with Muhammad (pbuh), then you just don't get Christianity. Not at all.

First, notice that I personally make an effort to say "peace be upon him" every time I mention Muhammad's (pbuh) name. Would I do that if I was not trying to be respectful? (It's a rhetorical question, the answer to which is "No.")

But to compare Jesus with any other person is to miss who we understand Jesus to be. There is none like him. So, if you compare Jesus with Muhammad (pbuh), and say all of the wonderful things about Jesus that you say about Muhammad (pbuh), I consider that as actually an insult to Jesus. Imagine that I was to speak of Muhammad (pbuh) as an ordinary human being, would you find that insulting of your great prophet? I find that many Muslims would feel that way. And yet, Islam itself admits that Muhammad (pbuh) is indeed just a human being like every other human being. Christianity makes a wholly different claim for Jesus. Now I know you don't believe those claims which we make. Fine, don't. But don't got telling me that you don't understand why we don't think you are not saying wondeful things about Jesus when you call him nothing more than a prophet. By comparison, it is even worse than saying that Muhammad (pbuh) is nothing more than a man. So, say that Jesus is nothing more than a prophet or nothing more than a man all you want. I'll understand where you are coming form and not take offense. But say that he was a wondeful human being and that you really honor him, and that we should be happy that you honor him is just nonsense to Christians. Should you be happy to hear that I think that Mohammad (pbuh) was a human being, a good man who shared his own faith with his people, but not always make it know in saying those things that I think Muhammad was nothing more than that and not a true prophet of God? I say nothing false about Muhammad and but stop short of saying all that you would say, and you refer to this as speaking negatively about Muhammad (pbuh).

As to the Jews, they do not claim that they are honoring Jesus. So, when they say that think of him as nothing more than a man, they are not dishonoring him. They are just stating their beliefs. So, state your beliefs, but don't ask us to pat you on the back for honoring Jesus when we don't see it as coming even close to the type of honor that he deserves.



--how do u know it’s not devil but the holy Spirit ?
the same way that anyone knows that it is God and not the devil speaking to them. God himself gives us a spirit of discernment. We also have the testimony of scripture to compare it to in order to see if it is in harmony with what God has already taught us.
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-22-2007, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
OK, and then you woke up.:coolalien
Come on, my brothers. This is just as rude as when a Muslim slams a Christian.

"And then you woke up." does not sound like the type of conversation intended to edify, build up, or produce a positive change in another. It is just a put down. I would hope that we Chrisians, who are here on an Islamic forum as invited guests, would argue our faith vigorously, but not resort to what is basically ad hominem type of arguments. They do not carry any of the conversation forward, they just serve to antagonize.

If this reflects the nature of a kinship that already exists between the poster and its intended recipient, then it might be more appropriate, assuming that the recipient is open to such jesting. But even then may I recommend such conversation be conducted off the public forum as few others are likely aware of those types of ongoing relationships between individual members of the forum. In that light, what may have been intended as a harmless jest between two individual posters could be perceived by others as a comment against a whole group.
Reply

Muslim Woman
06-22-2007, 03:15 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -


The Qur'an, it wasn't written by God's Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) since he was an illiterate man. His companions wrote it

this line may confused non-Muslims ...so , a little explanation. Prophet Muhammed (p) dictated what he heard from angel Gabriel (p). Not a single word of his own was added in Quran.

God warned in Quran that if Muhammed (p) tried to add/ change anything ,
his .......( i forgot the exact words ) hand or throat would have been cutted ....something like that.


So , no human being is/ was the author of Quran.

Quran does not ask to belief blindly.

Non-Muslims bro & sis , if u read Quran , u will find that God is asking to think , ponder , chanllenging u to find faults , if u don't believe Quran is from God , then take help of all human & Jinn & write a simialar one .
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-22-2007, 03:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:




this line may confused non-Muslims ...so , a little explanation. Prophet Muhammed (p) dictated what he heard from angel Gabriel (p). Not a single word of his own was added in Quran.

God warned in Quran that if Muhammed (p) tried to add/ change anything ,
his .......( i forgot the exact words ) hand or throat would have been cutted ....something like that.


So , no human being is/ was the author of Quran.

Quran does not ask to belief blindly.

Non-Muslims bro & sis , if u read Quran , u will find that God is asking to think , ponder , chanllenging u to find faults , if u don't believe Quran is from God , then take help of all human & Jinn & write a simialar one .
The book itself asks one to think, ponder, etc.
What non-Muslims question is the belief that the Qur'an is actually God's words. You accept that it was Allah who spoke to Muhammad (pbuh) because the Qur'an says that it was Allah who spoke to Muhammad, and you know that this is true, because it is in the Qur'an which, as we already know, is Allah's revelation to Muhammadm that says that it was Allah's message for Muhammad (pbuh).

Believe any one of those points and the rest follow very logically. But it seems to some of us outside of Islam that you have to jump in blindly to believe whatever point that you choose to first believe.

Mind you, this is not to say that we won't have some of the same circular forms of reasoning outside of Islam. But that is why at least some of us see it as blind faith. Blind faith that Muhammad (pbuh) spoke the truth that he received what he recited in the form of revelations and not out of his head or some other sources. Blind faith that he reported the revelations he claimed he received accurately. There is no one who is able to validate the accuracy of his recitation, except of course for the annual visit by Jibreel, who discussed this only with Muhammad. So, we have to take Muhammad's word on blind faith that indeed this validation occurred. Blind faith that the one who gave Muhammad his message was an angel of God and not some other messenger.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-22-2007, 11:39 AM
Grace Seeker, remember when we discussed the trinity? And i gave you logic that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is the servant and Messenger of God? What was your response?

Your response was that you could only use your texts to prove your claim for what you claimed. Using logic, the idea of man being God isn't really valid at all. Nor was the life of Jesus son of Mary godly either. Since he was born, was in a womb, grew up, drank, ate, he honored his mother, he called people to the worship of the Creator and Sustainer Alone etc.


If you're wondering why God's final Messenger is Muhammad (peace be upon him) - then if you're in doubt, refer to the scripture and see why it is the truth. Anyone can claim to get a message from God, but what exactly is the message? If he just claimed it, why does he have billions of followers who strive to follow his exact same footsteps?
Reply

Phil12123
06-23-2007, 04:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
So, no human being is/was the author of Quran.
Let me see if I understand. The angel Gabriel told things to Muhammad and at some later time, after Gabriel left, Muhammad's companions wrote down what he said Gabriel told him? Well, you still have human authors. You can't get away from human authors unless God Himself writes it all with His finger, as He did with the tablets of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 31:18; Deut. 9:10). I don't see any difference between an angel telling someone what to write and the Holy Spirit telling someone what to write. In fact, the latter would be MORE trustworthy. So the Bible should be MORE trustworthy, assuming the writers were lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote, which is exactly what Christians believe (2 Tim. 3:16).

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Quran does not ask to belief blindly.
I would agree with Grace Seeker that Christianity is a reasoned faith whereas Islam is more of a blind faith. For example, how do we know Gabriel said anything to Muhammad? There is no evidence available on which faith in that event may be considered reasonable. Whatever happened to the original writings? It seems to me the story is closer to Joseph Smith's concoction of the Book of Mormon and the "gold plates" that no one ever saw but him.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Non-Muslims bro & sis, if u read Quran, u will find that God is asking to think, ponder, chanllenging u to find faults, if u don't believe Quran is from God, then take help of all human & Jinn & write a similar one.
Write a similar one? That would not be that difficult. It would take some time but there are authors today who write 500-page books without a problem. I showed you one verse that I came up with that was very easy to produce, from my "New Revised King Phil Version," and I didn't even need a single Jinn to help me do it.
Reply

vpb
06-23-2007, 05:14 AM
Let me see if I understand. The angel Gabriel told things to Muhammad and at some later time, after Gabriel left, Muhammad's companions wrote down what he said Gabriel told him? Well, you still have human authors. You can't get away from human authors unless God Himself writes it all with His finger, as He did with the tablets of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 31:18; Deut. 9:10). I don't see any difference between an angel telling someone what to write and the Holy Spirit telling someone what to write. In fact, the latter would be MORE trustworthy. So the Bible should be MORE trustworthy, assuming the writers were lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote, which is exactly what Christians believe (2 Tim. 3:16).
what a silly post.
what has writing it down got to do with authorship????
do u know what is meant by human authors? it means that some part of Qur'an is written (made) by humans which is totally untrue. Exactly what Bible is (written by Paul, Matthew....., these people are human authors of Bible) You point is so silly, that I can't understand u sometimes. and in Islam, Gabriel a.s is the holy spirit.

I would agree with Grace Seeker that Christianity is a reasoned faith whereas Islam is more of a blind faith.
:) yep, an Opel Corsa is better then a Ferrari. Is it you or us that accept a concept which can't understand and can't be explained??? who is it???


For example, how do we know Gabriel said anything to Muhammad? There is no evidence available on which faith in that event may be considered reasonable.
It seems you have long-time-memory problems. I have explained in other threads (i think on Trinity.......) where I explained , that even the sahabas witnessed the revelation coming to Muhammad from things that were happening. You points are baseless, and you are making them just based on your opinion without any evidence.

Whatever happened to the original writings? It seems to me the story is closer to Joseph Smith's concoction of the Book of Mormon and the "gold plates" that no one ever saw but him.
Please read about how the Qur'an was preserved before you make such comments.

Write a similar one? That would not be that difficult. It would take some time but there are authors today who write 500-page books without a problem. I showed you one verse that I came up with that was very easy to produce, from my "New Revised King Phil Version," and I didn't even need a single Jinn to help me do it
hahhahahahahaha ;D,what a silly person that you are Phil.

my dear, Qur'an is not Bible, for people to play with translations and taking translations as main ones. Do you have a clue how high is the grammar of Qur'an??? you think with English language u challanged Qur'an?? you haven't even challanged Qur'an, you have challenged a translation of Qur'an.


just please read this post, bc you make such silly comment. I thought that "phil king transl" was just a joke, but I can't believe my eyes that you actually took it as true, and is considering it as a challenge to Qur'an.
hahahahaha

The list of records on making the most silly post on board:
3rd place : alapiana
2nd place : Phil
1st place: Aron85

btw, here is the artcile, please, I really am saying, please read it, before you make any more silly post :)

What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an With Respect To Arabic Prose & Poetry?
M S M Saifullah, cAbd ar-Rahman Robert Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem
&#169; Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
Last Modified: 9th September 1999

Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
The Qur'an in many places challenges the people to produce a surah like it. It appears that the Christian missionaries who call the challenge irrelevent or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur'an. This article is devoted to deal with one aspect of the Qur'anic challenge of produce a surah like it. What is meant by surah like it with respect to the Arabic prose and poetry?
The verses of the Qur'an dealing with the challenge are given below (Hilali and Muhsin Khan's Translation):
Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]
And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]
And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]
Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]
cAbdur Rahim Green mentions that:
These are the sixteen al-Bihar (literally "The Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Now I think at least the Christian's "Holy spirit" that makes you talk in tongues, part of your "Tri-Unity" of God should be able to inspire one of you with that!
To begin with; the Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the 'rhyme'. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning 'The Seas'. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. Each one rhymes differently. For metres of Arabic poetry please see please see Lyall's book Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic.[1]He discusses al-Kamil, al-Wafir, al-Hajaz, at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Khafif and al-Madid briefly.[2]
The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called "rhymed prose" or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.[3] One of the most famous speeches involving sajc is that of Hajjaj bin Yusuf in his first deputation in Iraq in post-Islamic and Quss bin Sa'idah in pre-Islamic times.
So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahim Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Indeed
The Qur'an is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of sajc, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[4]
It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar.[5] Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur'an's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur'an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh:
Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we seen such people and their spitting and their knots; you said, a diviner, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium. Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.
It is a well known fact that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf (or seven forms) to facilitate greater understanding of it among the Arabs who had different dialects. This was also to challenge them on their own grounds to produce a surah like that of the Qur'an. The challenge became more obvious when none of the seven major tribes could imitate it even in their own dialects as no one could claim that it was difficult to imitate due to it not being in their own dialect.[6]
What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'an?
E H Palmer, as early as 1880, recognized the unique style of the Qur'an. But he seem to have been wavering between two thoughts. He writes in the Introduction to his translation of the Qur'an:
That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. Again, with them this style is not spontaneous as with Muhammad and his contemporaries, but is as artificial as though Englishmen should still continue to follow Chaucer as their model, in spite of the changes which their language has undergone. With the Prophet, the style was natural, and the words were those in every-day ordinary life, while with the later Arabic authors the style is imitative and the ancient words are introduced as a literary embellishment. The natural consequence is that their attempts look laboured and unreal by the side of his impromptu and forcible eloquence.[7]
The famous Arabist from University of Oxford, Hamilton Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'an. In his words:
...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.[8]
And in some other place, talking about the Prophet(P) and the Qur'an, he states:
Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.[9]
As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style..... and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.[10]
On the influence of the Qur'an on Arabic literature Gibb says:
The influence of the Koran on the development of Arabic Literature has been incalculable, and exerted in many directions. Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. Its specific linguistic features were not emulated, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society.[11]
As the Qur'an itself says:
And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur'an 2:23-24)
Lastly, the beautiful style of the Qur'an is admired even by the Arab Christians:
The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.[12]
The above sentences speak of themselves. Summing up: Within the Arabic literature, either poetry or prose, there is nothing comparable to the Qur'an. Muslims throughout the centuries are united upon the its inimitability.
There is also a talk by Christian missionaries that there are grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'an. In retort, it can be mentioned that the Arab contemporaries of Muhammad(P) were most erudite and proficient in the idiosyncrasies of Arabic speech; and hence, if they had found any grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'an, they would have revealed it when Muhammad(P) challenged them with to do so. Therefore, since they did not take up his challenge on this issue, we can be rest assured that no such grammatical 'errors' exist in the Qur'an.
Indeed the grammatical errors claimed by Christian missionaries have been already discussed and refuted in a reputed journal.[13] It turns out that lack of knowledge of intricate constructions in classical Arabic by Christian missionaries gave rise to so-called grammatical 'errors'.
I'jaz al-Qur'an (Or Inimitability Of The Qur'an) & Its Exposition
I'jaz literally means "the rendering incapable, powerless". It is the concept relating to the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. What consitutes this miracle is a subject that has engaged Muslims scholars for centuries. By the early part of the third century AH (ninth century CE), the word i'jaz had come to mean that quality of the Qur'an that rendered people incapable of imitating the book or any part; in content and form. By the latter part of that century, the word had become the technical term, and the numerous definitions applied to it after the tenth century have shown little divergence from the key concepts of the inimitability of the Qur'an and the inability of human beings to match it even challenged (tahiddi).[14]
Thus, the Islamic doctrine of i'jaz al-Qur'an consists in the belief that the Qur'an is a miracle (mu'jizah) bestowed on Muhammad(P). Both terms, i'jaz and mu'jizah come from the same verbal root. While mu'jizah is the active principle of a'jaza, i'jaz is its verbal noun.[15]
The early theological discussions on i'jaz introduced the hypothesis of sarfah ("turning away") and argued that the miracle consisted of God's turning the competent away from taking up the challenge of imitating the Qur'an. The implication of sarfah is that the Qur'an otherwise could be imitated. However, cAbd al-Jabbar (d. 1025 CE), the Mu'tazilite theologian rejected sarfah because of its obvious weaknesses.
cAbd al-Jabbar rejects the doctrine of sarfah for two main reasons. Firstly, because it contradicts the verse of the Qur'an stating that neither jinn nor human can rival the Qur'an, and secondly because it makes a miracle of something other than the Qur'an, i.e., the sarfah, the prohibition from production, and not the Qur'an itself. In addition to this, according to 'Abd al-Jabbar, the doctrine of sarfah displays four major weaknesses:
    1. It ignores the well-known fact that the Arabs of Muhammad's time had acknowledged the superior quality of speech of the Qur'an;
    2. It is in direct conflict with the meaning of the verses of the Challenge;
    3. It implies that the Qur'an is not a miracle; and
    4. It asserts that the Arabs were out of their minds (khuruj 'an al-'aql).
This doctrine, in fact, implies that they could have produced a rival to the Qur'an, but simply decided against doing so. It effectively calls into question either their motives or their sanity. Therefore, according to cAbd al-Jabbar the correct interpretation of sarfah is that the motives to rival the Qur'an disappeared (insarafah) because of the recognition of the impossibility of doing so.[16]
cAbd al-Jabbar insisted on the unmatchable quality of the Qur'an's extra-ordinary eloquence and unique stylist perfection. In his work al-Mughni (The Sufficient Book), he argued that eloquence (fasahah) resulted from the excellence of both meaning and wording, and he explained that there were degrees of excellence depending on the manner in which words were chosen and arranged in any literary text, the Qur'an being the highest type.[17]
al-Baqillani (d. 1013 CE), in his systematic and comprehensive study entitled I'jaz al-Qur'an upheld the rhetorically unsurpassable style of the Qur'an, but he did not consider this to be a necessary argument in the favour of the Qur'an's uniqueness and emphasized instead the content of revelation.
The choice and arrangement of words, referred to as nazm was the focus of discussion by al-Jahiz, al-Sijistani (d. 928 CE), al-Bakhi (d. 933 CE) and Ibn al-Ikhshid (d. 937 CE). al-Rummani and his contemporary al-Khattabi (d. 998 CE) discussed the psychological effect of nazm of the Qur'an in their al-Nukat fi I'jaz al-Qur'an and Bayan I'jaz al-Qur'an, respectively.
The author who best elaborated and systematized the theory of nazm in his analysis of the i'jaz is cAbd al-Qahir al-Jurjani (d. 1078 CE) in his Dala'il al-I'jaz. His material was further organized by Fakhr ad-Din al-Razi (d. 1209) in his Nihayat al-I'jaz fi Dirayat al-I'jaz and put to practical purposes by al-Zamakhshari (d. 1144 CE) in his exegesis of the Qur'an entitled al-Kashasaf, rich in rhetorical analysis of the Qur'anic style.[18]
Hardly anything new has been added by later authors.
Is The Bible Inimitable?
Anyone who has read the history of the Bible as a text as well as the constantly changing canon at the whims of the leaders of the Church and some 300,000+ variant readings in the New Testament itself would suggest that no book in history enjoyed such as reputation. The process of serious editing through which the Christian Bible went through is unparalleled in its almost 2000 year history. This would itself make the Bible an inimitable book.
As far as the language of the Bible and its stylistic perfection is concerned, the Bible does not make any such claim. Therefore, it not does challenge the mankind of produce a few verses or a chapter like it. Further, it is a Christian claim that the Bible contains scribal and linguistic errors. The language in which the Greek New Testament was written is demotic Greek which itself has little or no regard for grammatical rules of classical Greek. Comparing the stylistic perfection of the Qur'an versus stylistic imperfection of the Bible, von Grunebaum states:
In contrast to the stylistic perfection of the Kur'an with the stylistic imperfections of the older Scriptures the Muslim theologian found himself unknowingly and on purely postulative grounds in agreement with long line of Christian thinkers whose outlook on the Biblical text is best summed up in Nietzsche's brash dictum that the Holy Ghost wrote bad Greek.[19]
Futher, he elaborates the position of Western theologians on the canonization process and composition of the Bible:
The knowledge of the Western theologian that the Biblical books were redacted by different writers and that they were, in many cases, accessible to him only in (inspired) translation facilitated admission of formal imperfections in Scripture and there with lessened the compulsive insistence on its stylistic authority. Christian teaching, leaving the inspired writer, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, free in matters of style, has provided no motivation to seek an exact correlation between the revealed text on the one hand and grammar and rhetoric on the other. It thereby relieved the theologian and the critic from searching for a harmony between two stylistic worlds, which at best would yield an ahistoric concept of literary perfection and at worst would prevent anything resembling textual and substantive criticism of Revelation....
In Christianity, besides, the apology for the "low" style of the Bible is merely a part of educational problem - what to do with secular erudition within Christianity; whereas in Islam, the central position of the Kur'an, as the focal point and justification of grammatical and literary studies, was theoretically at least, never contested within the believing community.[20]
That pretty much sums up the Bible, its stylistic perfection (or the lack of it!) and the position of Western theologians.
And Allah knows best!
Relevent ArticlesIslamic Awareness

Qur'an

Miracle

What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an?

References
[1] C J Lyall, Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic, Williams & Norgate Ltd., London, 1930.
[2] Ibid., pp. xlv-lii.
[3] Ibn Khaldun, The Muqaddimah, Franz Rosenthal (Translator), Volume III, Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1958, p. 368.
[4] A F L Beeston, T M Johnstone, R B Serjeant and G R Smith (Editors), Arabic Literature To The End Of The Ummayad Period, 1983, Cambridge University Press, p. 34.
[5] Louis Cheikho, Shucara' 'al-Nasraniyah, 1890-1891, Beirut.
[6] Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, Tafseer Soorah al-Hujuraat, 1988, Tawheed Publications, Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), p. 28.
[7] E H Palmer (Tr.), The Qur'an, 1900, Part I, Oxford at Clarendon Press, p. lv.
[8] H A R Gibb, Islam - A Historical Survey, 1980, Oxford University Press, p. 28.
[9] Ibid., p. 25.
[10]H A R Gibb, Arabic Literature - An Introduction, 1963, Oxford at Clarendon Press, p. 36.
[11] Ibid., p. 37.
[12] Alfred Guillaume, Islam, 1990 (Reprinted), Penguin Books, pp. 73-74.
[13] M A S Abdel Haleem, Grammatical Shift For The Rhetorical Purposes: Iltifat & Related Features In The Qur'an, Bulletin of School of Oriental and African Studies, Volume LV, Part 3, 1992. (Now online)
[14] Mircea Eliade (Editor in Chief), The Encyclopedia Of Religion, Volume 7, Macmillam Publishing Company, New York, p. 87, Under I'jaz by Issa J Boullata.
[15] Yusuf Rahman, The Miraculous Nature Of Muslim Scripture: A Study Of 'Abd al-Jabbar's I'jaz al-Qur'an, Islamic Studies, Volume 35, Number 4, 1996, p. 409.
[16] Ibid., pp. 415-416.
[17] The Encyclopedia Of Religion, Op.Cit, p. 88.
[18] Ibid.
[19] B Lewis, V L Menage, Ch. Pellat & J Schacht (Editors), Encyclopedia Of Islam (New Edition), 1971, Volume III, E J Brill (Leiden) & Luzac & Co. (London), p. 1020 (Under I'djaz).
[20] Ibid.


Source
Reply

Phil12123
06-23-2007, 05:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Using logic, the idea of man being God isn't really valid at all. Nor was the life of Jesus son of Mary godly either. Since he was born, was in a womb, grew up, drank, ate, he honored his mother, he called people to the worship of the Creator and Sustainer Alone etc.
Not sure what you mean by "godly." We are all supposed to live "godly" lives and we do, or have done, all those things you mention---be born, be in a womb, grow up, drink, eat, honor parents, etc. The life of Jesus was indeed very godly, and we believe totally sinless.

format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
If you're wondering why God's final Messenger is Muhammad (peace be upon him) - then if you're in doubt, refer to the scripture and see why it is the truth. Anyone can claim to get a message from God, but what exactly is the message? If he just claimed it, why does he have billions of followers who strive to follow his exact same footsteps?
That is very true --- anyone can claim to get a message from God. But the test of whether it is from God is not the number of people who believe it. Jesus warned, "And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many" (Matt. 24:11). One way to test it is to look at previous revelation that we've already validated or believe to be from God and see if it contradicts it. For example, the head of the Mormon church is supposedly a living prophet. But I would judge what he says based on whether it conflicts with the Bible, just as I would judge the Book of Mormon based on whether it conflicts with the Bible. By the same token, I judge the Quran by whether it conflicts with the earlier revelation of the Bible. Obviously it does. So I am compelled to reject it, just as I reject the Book of Mormon.
Reply

vpb
06-23-2007, 05:33 AM
That is very true --- anyone can claim to get a message from God. But the test of whether it is from God is not the number of people who believe it
so Islam has passed this test, since it has 1.5 billion people and very soon it will exceed all other faiths inshaAllah. but still the number doesn't really prove anything.
Reply

Phil12123
06-23-2007, 06:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
what a silly post.
what has writing it down got to do with authorship????
do u know what is meant by human authors? it means that some part of Qur'an is written (made) by humans which is totally untrue. Exactly what Bible is (written by Paul, Matthew....., these people are human authors of Bible) You point is so silly, that I can't understand u sometimes. and in Islam, Gabriel a.s is the holy spirit.
So, calling my post silly or calling me silly is supposed to answer me? Did it occur as I described or not? Maybe you could just respond to what I said rather than engage in ad hominem attacks on me personally.


format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
It seems you have long-time-memory problems. I have explained in other threads (i think on Trinity.......) where I explained , that even the sahabas witnessed the revelation coming to Muhammad from things that were happening. You points are baseless, and you are making them just based on your opinion without any evidence.
Maybe you could give me a link or paste something, rather than accuse me of having long-time-memory problems. Don't you know how to discuss things without attacking people? Take a lesson or two from Woodrow or MustafaMc. I highly respect their posts and they don't attack people; they stick to subjects and ideas.

format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
I thought that "phil king transl" was just a joke, but I can't believe my eyes that you actually took it as true, and is considering it as a challenge to Qur'an.
Well, I originally did intend it as a joke, but what it said was true, from a Christian perspective, right? And it was very easy to create, so that was my point. Perhaps Woodrow can explain the Quran, where you merely attack me personally.

format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
btw, here is the artcile, please, I really am saying, please read it, before you make any more silly post :)
No thanks. Your disrespectful attitude has turned me off to reading anything you post.
Reply

vpb
06-23-2007, 06:13 AM
So, calling my post silly or calling me silly is supposed to answer me? Did it occur as I described or not? Maybe you could just respond to what I said rather than engage in ad hominem attacks on me personally.
I already did it, read it.
what has writing it down got to do with authorship????
do u know what is meant by human authors? it means that some part of Qur'an is written (made) by humans which is totally untrue. Exactly what Bible is (written by Paul, Matthew....., these people are human authors of Bible)
Maybe you could give me a link or paste something, rather than accuse me of having long-time-memory problems. Don't you know how to discuss things without attacking people? Take a lesson or two from Woodrow or MustafaMc. I highly respect their posts and they don't attack people; they stick to subjects and ideas.
I hope you didn';t take as serious the word 'long-time-memory problem'. I'm pretty sure Wodroow is older than me, of course he is more serious than I am. I sticked on every part of your post, but bc you don't answer them rather then telling me i'm attacking you that's a different thing.

Well, I originally did intend it as a joke, but what it said was true, from a Christian perspective, right?
There is no christian perspective when you challenge Qur'an. you can't do it however you want, otherwise it will not be considered as challenging. as I said, making a verse in english, is actually not a challenge to Qur'an but a translation of it.

And it was very easy to create,
yeah, I can do it too. But how about doing one in arabic, in its the original Qur'anic fashion/style?

Perhaps Woodrow can explain the Quran, where you merely attack me personally.
Why do you hold on a word 'silly' , I can't see what type of attack is here? you're acting like those girls who have sexual relationship by their wish with an older person >above 18, and then the parents say "ohhh, it was a rape a rape". Be more open. I don't mean to attack you, I just mean as a way of joke, to show how funny your posts are. I don't profit anything from attacking you, and I don't attack people. and you have had the chance to learn about Qur'an, but you like to talk bad about Qur'an.
Don't let us start showing here who offended who.

No thanks. You're disrespectful attitude has turned me off to reading anything you post.
You didn't reply back any of my points made, even you claim that it was all "attack". But anyways, if you are american, I hope you never go to UK, otherwise you will offended from so much jokes and sarcasm of English people (even though i'm not english).
Reply

vpb
06-23-2007, 06:28 AM
you know, you behave exactly like some women who when they can't hold on debating/argumenting anymore with their husband/boyfriend, they start crying. Reply to my points, rather than telling me I'm attacking you. I'm glad you didn't consider that 'attack' as a threat and quit taking everything seriously. The main reason for this forum is to talk/discuss to each other, and stop considering everything as an attack.
Reply

czgibson
06-23-2007, 04:28 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
you know, you behave exactly like some women who when they can't hold on debating/argumenting anymore with their husband/boyfriend, they start crying.
There speaks a true gentleman...

+o(

Peace
Reply

- Qatada -
06-23-2007, 04:36 PM
C'mon guys, no insulting please.



Peace.
Reply

czgibson
06-23-2007, 06:49 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
C'mon guys, no insulting please.
How about 'no blatant misogyny' too?

Peace
Reply

vpb
06-23-2007, 07:22 PM
How about 'no blatant misogyny' instead?
what's wrong with you people? why do you make such a mess for a word which you use everyday in life??? is it as pretext now to put me down, and call me a "offender", just bc you can't reply to my posts? come on, you use those words everyday, u use even words worse than that , isn't that true? how many times ppl in the west tell others to '**** off' ???? and they say nothing, but whenever they talk to a muslim, it matters, cuz they need to make him look bad, as an offender, (as we usually are) , you try to find hair inside an egg.

I'm pretty sure if Phil would have had proof to backup his claims about his sayings, he wouldn't care about the world 'silly', bc since he can't reply in any way, then of course he has to jump on searching for 'offending words'.

STOP exaggerating things, I'm glad you didn't consider it as a 'threat to death' for a use of a everyday life word. ;D;D;D



and maybe ppl should start also think before they reply, instead of making such claims.

let us not start to look for offensive posts, cuz we would know who beats the record.
Reply

czgibson
06-24-2007, 06:21 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
what's wrong with you people?
I find blatant sexism offensive. Don't you?
why do you make such a mess for a word which you use everyday in life??? is it as pretext now to put me down, and call me a "offender", just bc you can't reply to my posts? come on, you use those words everyday, u use even words worse than that , isn't that true? how many times ppl in the west tell others to '**** off' ???? and they say nothing, but whenever they talk to a muslim, it matters, cuz they need to make him look bad, as an offender, (as we usually are) , you try to find hair inside an egg.
I've never spoken about women the way you have in this thread, and neither has anyone I'm friends with. This has nothing to do with your religion, it has to do with your humanity. I'm sure many Muslims would be just as sickened as I was to read your words.

I can only hope you are a young person who doesn't know any better.

Peace
Reply

vpb
06-24-2007, 06:27 PM
I've never spoken about women the way you have in this thread, and neither has anyone I'm friends with. This has nothing to do with your religion, it has to do with your humanity. I'm sure many Muslims would be just as sickened as I was to read your words.
Please pay attention to my statement.

you know, you behave exactly like some women who when they can't hold on debating/argumenting anymore with their husband/boyfriend, they start crying. Reply to my points, rather than telling me I'm attacking you. I'm glad you didn't consider that 'attack' as a threat and quit taking everything seriously. The main reason for this forum is to talk/discuss to each other, and stop considering everything as an attack.
Who said it was women in general??? or all women??? actually muslim women don't behave like that :)
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-24-2007, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I find blatant sexism offensive. Don't you?


I've never spoken about women the way you have in this thread, and neither has anyone I'm friends with. This has nothing to do with your religion, it has to do with your humanity. I'm sure many Muslims would be just as sickened as I was to read your words.

I can only hope you are a young person who doesn't know any better.

Peace

I agree, lets' show some respect for the sisters. They are our mothers most deserving of our company. They are our big sisters who helped raise us, they are our little sisters who we love and protect so much, they are our wives who support us and without whom our lives 'd be a mess. They are our daughters that turn our hearts from stone to sponges of tears of happyness and worry.

Misogyny is just wrong
Reply

- Qatada -
06-24-2007, 06:31 PM
Agreed, i think this threads lasted long enough.



Thread Closed.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-10-2009, 07:03 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-27-2009, 05:50 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-08-2007, 11:46 PM
  4. Replies: 35
    Last Post: 07-06-2006, 02:58 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!